him counseling and love. and they are from columbus ohio. >> >> host: why did they get into it? >> guest: they are north korea human rights activist and devote christians. they got interested in him and sought him out. >> host: where do you expect him to end up? >> guest: he is 29. i hope he will use the money from this book to get more education and i would hope to learn english and pursue this dream as a human rights advocate on north korea and other issues. he has not done exactly as everyone hoped in terms of education, training, psychotherapy. he is his own individual person but he is now doing this

webcasting in south korea and he is very excited about it. he is in a much better place now than he was in 2008 when i met him. and he is thrilled this book is selling in the united states and people are learning about the camp. and that was the goal and the reason we went through the m misery of talking about it. >> our guest has been blaine harden and his book "escape from camp 14: one man's remarkable odyssey from north korea to freedom in the west." thank you very much. >> thank you. for a dvd copy of this, call the number on the screen. for free transcripts or comments visit us at qanda.org.

they are also available as c-span podcast. coming up tonight, the commune can caters has christopher harrison. then a look at the return of the taliban to afghanistan. and then an interview with bruce hearsener later. >> cspan 2 provides public policy meetings and on the weekends booktv. c-span 2 created by the cable industry and brought to you as a

public service by your local cable or satellite provider. watch us in hd, like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. >> host: mr. harrison, what is pandora and how does it work? >> guest: it is what you may known as a personalized radio service. our technology is what sets us apart. our music genome primary. it was founded by a musician himself. he was frustrated because it was difficult for him to communicate with drouirectors. a director would say i want music that sounds like x and the director would say this sounds like x and he would no, no,

something that sounds like x. so his idea was you could breakdown music into its genes and map that up to 450 different characterist characteristics and create something that looked at every song. just by way of example, think of vocalist, nora jones, very light and breathy. compare her to tom yates or bob dillion. that is just one example of the ways in which musicolgist will analyze the song and categorize the genes. then we use collective intelligence. so think of that as how a song

plays for everybody on the service. if you have a station you seeded with the almond brothers, for example, we can tell how well songs by the marshal tucker band plays for everyone with a similar station. and we use colllabrative filtering and that is an individual level analysis. so if both you and i happen to like a song whipping post by the almond brothers and you like this old cowboy by the marshal tucker band and i am giving away my musical taste, i think. but there is some statistical likelihood that i will also like this old cowboy by the marshal tu tucker band. we take those three ways of listening to music and listeners

come on and are asked to give a song, artist or genre of music and they start the service and we deliver a personalized station for them. >> host: when the nora jones song plays who gets paid? >> guest: copyright is complex and music licensing more so. when we play music on pandora, we are paying two copyrights. one is the recording and that is owned by the record label and that is nora jones' version, the recording she made of the song. >> host: so the record company gets paid? >> guest: the record company gets paid. and the song itself, the song writer who wrote the lyrics,

those are controlled by the publisher so we pay royalty to them. >> host: how does pandora make money? >> guest: we are primarily an ad supported business. we have a subscription service that allows listeners to pay a monthly fee and not receive ads but the vast majority derives from the sale of advertising. we are good at delivering targeted ads. you may have read recently about our political segmentation and our ability to target ads based on political party. our value proposition there is because why a 1-1 medium as opposed to traditional am/fm radio when it plays one song to

whoever is signed in, we know who is listening to what and what device. we are integrated in many car miles and that is where a lot of people used to listen to fm/am. we can tell when you are in the car and we can target ads and make them relevant to the driving experience. >> host: let's talk about the issues pandora might be facing. i want to read this from a statement at the iira. he said music licensing is a time-c

time-consum time-consuming process that needs to be refined. do you agree? >> guest: pandora operates under statutory blanket licenses and that means we can get the rights to play all of the music on the service from essentially two sources. all of the rights from the record labels true the statutory license that congress created in 1995. so it is simple for us. we follow certain rules that congress laid down in order to be entitled to use the license. but as along as we follow them we can play any music we want. on the publishing side it is similar. there are two organizes primarily that collect royalties on behalf of their song writer members. and we can play any song that we want based on those two li licenses. there is efficiencies for us

that facilitate innovation and allow for us to enter the market easy. >> host: joining us is hayley tsukayama to talk about the issues with us. >> thanks for having me. i know you were on the hill to talk about consent decrees that go into this. can you talk about the consent degrees in the face of the changing technology what changes you would like to see? >> guest: they were put in place many years ago by the department of justice that filled anti-trust claims against the two performing rights societies. those decrees exist to mitigate what is perceived as the marketing power. the publishers have voiced concern about the current state of licensing. and the department of justice is

currently reviewing those decrees. they asked for public comment and i anticipate that when those comments come out we will take an active roll in reviewing those and voicing our opinions. >> speaking of royalties, the music industry has changed so much in the way that consumers look at it and they get their music, and i think the system is so complicated and there have been so many changes, but from a consumer point of view, people are interested in saying how do you keep the prices low and make sure this industry keeps thriving because we enjoy the music. so i am interested in what you see is the pathway to doing that? >> pandora is radio. that is how the service was envisi envisioned when launched in 2005.

as supported radio has a long history in the united states. very culturally significant because it allowed the widest diss diss diss diss dissimmination. we are ad supported and are an extension of the am/fm market. because of that listeners don't have to pay subscription. we are over 80% penetrated with internet access and we are integrated in a thousand devices. not just your mobile fun. you can listen on a refrigerator now even. it is way to reach listeners across the entire economic

spectrum and allow them to listen to the music they love even if a local broadcaster doesn't have the station of that music. >> host: just to follow-up on the different landscape. how are you different than a traditional am/fm radio station? >> guest: there are different rules and licensing regimes. the technology is different. a broadcast by its name is just that. you are playing a single song to all of your listeners tuned in. we are a one-to-one technology. we deliver a station specifically for you and that enables us to do things broadcast radio can't. we can be more personalized than broadcast radio. it allows us to deliver content

that might not be available in your local broadcast market. so if you happen to really like jazz music or blue grass and there is not a local station broadcasting that you can still access it through your pandora account. >> when it comes to ask cap and bmi -- what are they? >> guest: they represent music publishers and song writers. >> host: do they support pandora and other online radio stations? >> guest: i think they recognize that online listening is the future. if you look at pandora's share of all radio listening it is increased steadily since our launch. i think we last reported we were north of 9% of all radio listening. so we are part of the landscape and the music listening

landscape. we provide a valuable platform for artist and song writers to have their music heard. >> host: were you sued by the big record companies for not paying licensing fees? >> guest: there is a suit pending in new york state court over records recorded prior to not 1972. the copyright act until 1972 didn't recognize sound recording for copyright. they did haven't a performance right until 1995. and even then congress made the decision not to include for performance royalties those recordings made before 1972. so the copyright office in late

2011 and early 2012 determined they are entitled to a performance royalty under federal law. >> host: elvis, and others can be played for free? >> guest: we will still play the song writer as the song is subject to copyright. but yes, the copyright act makes all sorts of choices. there is a famous song writer from the 1920's wc handy who recorded many poplar songs. a song he wrote in 1920 is in the public domain. his estate wouldn't receive any royalties from the song. one of his songs was recorded by stevie wonder in the 1980's. well stevie is going to a get a royalty as a recording artist

because it was records after 1972. it is complex but it is what it is. congress set out the rules and that is the world we found ourselves. >> host: hayley tsukayama? >> we have seen with youtube and people generate sites people are breaking out there. what do they need to think about in this industry? >> guest: you are right. there are many platforms for artist to be discovered than in the past and relying on broadcast radio. we play about a hundred thousand different artist every month. 80% are not played on any form of radio. so there is a value to these new

platforms for artist to be discovered and connect with fans that will love their music. there is a great example, a band bronze radio return, they found like mumford and sons. so in 2009, before they launched in the united states, bronze radio return had 1500 spins in the entire year of 2009. 2010 comes along and the mumford and sons break and they are winning awards and people started looking for stations based on mumford and sons. last year that band had 18.4

million spins on pandora. it is a great example of the value of our platform in helping artist connect with fans that love their music. >> and how do you balance -- if people say i want to hear nora jones and they are expecting to hear songs they know and songs they don't so how do you balance what people know and what is new? >> guest: we spend time looking at the analyst behavior and seeing if we are playing enough new music or too much. we have lots of data scientist who do math i cannot understand. >> host: john conyers started an

act to get more rights to the artist before 1972. what do you think of hat? >> guest: i think it is unfairly targeted internet radio because we were the onlys who would pay that. we would support full federalization of pre-1972 recording. >> host: what does that mean? >> guest: there are protections built into the copyright act like the ability of libraries to keep archives and rights of termination of transfer that artist have, all of those are built into the copyright act that are not part of the respect act. if congress wanted to provide the rights to these copyrights and the protections for consumers and libraries and artist we would support that. >> host: is this in a sense new

technology verus old lying companies? we have seen the battles or issues in tech issues before. >> guest: i think there has been tension between publishers and such for years. they were against radio at one time. beta and vcr tapes. digital audio tapes. there is always tension between technology and copyright owners as the consumers figure out if they would like it. >> host: congress is deliberating on copyright law. what would you like to see done from your perspective? >> guest: i applaud mr.

goodlatte. they are taking what i can is the appropriate approach which is a full look at all of the issues associated with copyright. you know, and hopefully, what comes out of this is a real productive conversation of all of the stakeholders including the consumers at the end of the day who benefit from innovating technologies like pandora and we can find a way to improve the system where it could be improved. >> i know that pandora is increasing presence in washington, d.c. what other are you looking for? >> guest: music and copyright is top of the line. but we are focused on issues that are important to technology companies in general. patton reform and privacy

issues. >> host: you have described or pandora has been described as a big data provider. what does that mean? >> guest: we'll, we track every interaction we have with our listeners. so when you log on to the service, we know you logged on. when you launch a station we know what station you launched. we know what songs you listen to and we have this feature of thumbing up and thumbing down. there is a thumb icon on your screen and if you like a song you can thumb it up and if you don't we thumb it down. we keep track of that interaction. we have more than 30 billion captured since launching the service. that allows us to do things where we can take the information we have and look at

what listeners are most likely to respond to. that is the value we bring: the ability to target against particular demographics. when a user launches the service were the first time, we ask for their gender, age and zip code and that in combination with their listener behavior allows us to target ads we think are relevant to the listeners. we started talking about how we can help the music industry in general with the information. our founder talked about efforts that we have underway to look at exposing that information to recording artist or song writers in ways that will help them grow their business. as we talked about with mumford

and sons and bronze radio return. information we can provide to them might help them make marketing decisions. we have a great example of a band called fall out boy. they came into the office and we showed them how they were playing on the service and they found out they were poplar in salt lake city and they never went there. next time on tour, they went to salt lake city for three shows and sold them all out. so there is great value about how we can provide feedback do artist and others in the music industry. >> host: mr. harrison, going back to the political side of this, if they are listening to fall out boy, are they republican or democrat?

>> guest: how that manifest through the secret sauce is secret. >> host: and who developed the secret sauce? >> guest: it is all inside. >> host: how many employers? >> guest: 1300 and majority involved in sales or sales support. >> you played around with mobile and desktop use as people rely more on their mobile devices you had to adjust the way you put limits on the mobile device. can you talk about what you learned in changing the models and what you are finding out about people's habits? >> guest: it is fascinating to see the c change in the listener behavior. we were listened to on the desktop a couple years and now 80% or more is on mobile devices. it creates a lot of challenges.

you have a smaller screen so how do you convey information to the users in a way that is simple and easy to navigate. unfortunately advertisers are not on mobile as rapidly as listeners. so it is slightly behind than where we are on the desktop. we are proud of the efforts we made. we are third behind facebook and google in terms of ability to monetize mobile listeners. we are pioneered a lot of the new ad products for mobile listeners. audio advertising over devices like this is new and exciting. we do research on how well ads

perform and because we don't monetize as well on mobile as we do on desktop the royalties we pay are the same. last year we implemented measures to try and slow the growth of listening on the mobile device in order to give us an opportunity to have the monetizing catch up to the desktop. we were able to do that and removed the caps. we did the same thing years ago on the desktop when he had a spike in listenership and needed time to have the monetization to catch up. >> the larger you get the more royalties you have? is there a way around that? >> guest: it provides us more

advertising opportunitiess with the increased in hours. we focus on local sales. if you thing about am/fm radio the vast majority is at the local level. >> car dealerships. >> host: yes, we are on the station with many of them. that is really where we see the biggest opportunity for us to increase that monetization. >> host: could congress destroy your business if it changes the laws in a certain way? >> guest: i don't know about that. i think the music licensing is a complicated set of rules and we are excited to participate in chairman goodlatte's review. and we are confidant whatever

comes out of congress and our voice is heard. >> do you foresee copyright reform in this congress? or will it bring it ever? >> guest: it is hard for me giving the hearing themselves, i don't believe they have finished are of the hearing they want, so i find it hard to believe it would get finished this year. >> host: how much time influence does the fcc have on pandora? >> guest: other than our acquisition of kx, or fm station in south dakota, we are not fcc regulated. >> host: why did you buy that radio station? >> guest: as i said before, we

view ourselves as radio. we consciously set out to create a radio program. it happens to be over the internet but we see ourselves as a radio. there are things broadcast does well, particularly at the local level, where we think we can have valuable learning and this provided an opportunity to test it out. it always happens to be that they pay less in royalties than pandora and owning a radio station was a vehicle for us to take advantage of a better licensing regime. >> chris harrison and hayley tsukayama thank you both.

>> watch us in hd, like us on facebook and follow us on twitter. >> coming on booktv in prime time. books on foreign policy. first, a discussion on the conflict in ukraine, then a look at the return of the taliban in afghanistan, and later an interview with a pepperdine foreign policy professor. >> on the next washington journal, bob cue zack is our guest and carl smit will