to have a working authorization. that was the first thing and to pay taxes. and eventually, the working authorization you couldn't go back anywhere. couldn't go back to your cub. but it -- to your country. but it allowed you to work legally, attackses and eventually apply for a green card which is eventually what i did. so the country was welcoming people like me who worked in the fields. it was a different time, you know? and i felt that i was given an opportunity, an opportunity to live the american dream. >> join us later today when we'll show you our interview with dr. question known yes, sir hinojosa again in its entirety, this from our "q&a" program. it's one of the author interviews from our latest book, "sundays at eight." see the program today at 7 p.m. eastern here on c-span2. >> here are some of the highlights for this weekend.

>> and let us know what you think about the programs you're watching. call us at 202-626-3400. or e-mail us at comments@c-span.org. join the c-span conversation. like us on facebook, follow us on twitter.

>> the senate budget committee held a hearing recently on student loan debt which, according to the consumer financial protection bureau, is over $1 trillion. lawmakers examined the impact of student loans on borrowers, career choice and the larger economy. witnesses included the consumer financial protection bureau's student ombudsman, a recent graduate and economic scholar richard vedder. this is about 90 minutes. [inaudible conversations] >> this hearing will come to order. i want to thank senate johnson -- senator johnson who is filling in today for my ranking member, senator sessions, welcome to you and all of our colleagues who are joining us today as well as a room full. welcome to all of you on a really important topic today. we are going to be talking about a challenge that 40 million people around our country face today, and for many americans who want to further their education and build be their

skills -- build their skills, taking out student loans has become a college prereck by with sit. -- prerequisite. but that debt can weaken borrowers' chances of getting ahead. >> i want to thank our witnesses who will shed light on the challenges mounting debt can impose. we're going to be hearing from the student loan on ombudsman for the consumer financial protection bureau, and i'm very pleased to welcome britney jones today. she is a recent graduate and the former president of the student virginia education association. we're also going to be hearing

from richard vedder, he is a distinguished professor emeritus of economics at ohio university. a college degree is a worthwhile investment, and for many it can be a ticket to the middle class. we know that on average college graduates earn more, and they tend to have lower unemployment rates than their less educated peers. a highly educated work force is also good for our country. it strengthens our middle class, it strengthens the work force we'll need to compete in the 31st century -- 21st century global economy. more and more jobs of the future will require postsecondary credentials or degrees, and in fact, in the coming years as many as two-thirds of all jobs will require at least some college education according to the center on education and work force. but to afford college, many people have to turn to the student loans to help finance their education. in just a few moments, you're going to hear from britney jones talk about how taking out

student loans made it possible for her to get a college degree. and, britney, i look forward to hearing more about your experiences. you've now worked to start a teaching career and at the same time paying down that student loan that got you through college. of course, britney isn't alone. dealing with overbearing student debt has become a reality for a growing number of americans. the statistics are staggering. today the average college graduate will have to pay back around $30,000 in student loans, and a record number of young households owe student debt. back in 1989 16% of young households had student debt. by 2010 that figure had more than doubled according to the pew research center. more young people than ever before are dealing with more student debt than ever before, and that can have lasting consequences. americans who took out school loans find it difficult to save and accumulate wealth. a recent study found that college graduates without student debt had accumulated

seven times more wealth than those who were paying back school loans. crushing student debt isn't just hurting borrowers, there's mounting evidence that student debt is holding back our economy. historically, young americans have been a source of economic activity as they set up their households and start their own careers. but today many are finding it difficult to save even for a down payment on a home and the high monthly bills to pay back student loans can disqualify many people from even getting a mortgage. when first-time home buyers respect able to get a mortgage -- aren't able to get a mortgage, it can adversely affect the housing industry as a whole. that's why the national association of home builders have expressed concern about the overbearing financial weight of student loans. student debt can stifle entrepreneurship. young people who dream of starting up their own business aren't able to take the risks and the business loans or that are usually needed when they launch a start-up. paying off student loans can

prevent young people from saving for retirement or making the kinds of purchases that help further our economic recovery. mr. chopra, i know these economic consequences are what you and others at the consumer financial protection bureau have called the domino effect, and i'm looking forward to hearing more details in your testimony about those negative economic impacts. to address these challenges as a starting point, we need to insure that student loan servicers are treating those borrowers fairly and responsibly. some people have discovered their student loan servicer hasn't properly processed payments. there have also been complaints that private student lenders have put borrowers into default if a co-signer dies despite the borrower being current, and i was very troubled to hear

reports sallai may was -- sallie mae was overcharging on their student loans. and i've asked secretary arne duncan to investigate to make sure other student loan servicing companies are not doing the same. but we can do more to help borrowers. theback on student -- the bank on student emergency loan financing act is a bill that i've co-sponsored along with several of our democratic colleagues allowing borrowers to refinance their federal student debt. the congressional research service estimates this bill would let borrowers save $4,000 on average. passing that legislation would put more money in borrowers' octobers so they can make ends meet, make down payments on homes or start new businesses and help grow our economy. right now people can refinance their home loans or their business loans when interest rates drop. this bill will let borrowers

with federal student debt do the same, and this should be a bipartisan issue. just last year, for example, republicans and democrats came together to pass the bipartisan student loan certainty act. that bill allowed new borrowers to take advantage of lower interest rates established by the free market. this legislation would use those same free market principles to help those with existing student loans. at a time when higher education is more important than ever to our nation's long-term competitiveness, a college degree shouldn't drown borrowers in debt. now and in the future we need to make sure that people who choose to further their education and build their skills are better able to afford college and manage their student debt. it is an economic imperative. to strengthen our middle class, to strengthen our work force ask to help spark economic growth, congress needs to address these changes. so i'm very delighted to have this hearing today, and i would like before i turn over to our panel of witnesses, we would

like to hear there senator johnson. >> thank you, madam chair. i appreciate you holding this hearing. this is, i think, an extremely important issue. i think it's a tragedy that we've enticed our children to ip cu now about $1.2 trillion in student loan debt collectively. i had a finance professor in college before we ever talk about cost of capital and all the complex be issues with corporate finance, he spent a day just talking about personal finance. the reason they call a debt a bond is because when you go into debt, you put yourself into bondage, and you want to avoid that. so i certainly took that to heart. i, of course, had the advantage of growing up and going to college in the '70s when college was a lot cheaper. worked full time and rather than leaving college with close to $0,000 this debt, i -- $30,000 in debt, i left with clash 7,000 in the wang -- $7,000 in the bank. i've actually been using this in my powerpoint presentation as i

travel around the state of wisconsin. just laying out some facts and and a little food for thought here. what this chart shows is that in 1963 the total cost of a four-year undergraduate degree in a public college was about $929 per year. that's room, board and tuition. now, by 1988 the actual cost had risen to $4 678 which was 27% higher than had it just gone with the rate of inflation. you can see as of 2012 the cost of college outstripped the rate of inflation by almost two and a half times. one year of college now has, is about -- in 2012 was $17,474. two and a half times the rate of inflation. and i guess the question i'm asking is, why? what is so is different about what colleges and universities spend their money on that their

costs would outstrip the rate inflation by 2.5%? and by the way, two of the components -- room and board, you know, food and shelter -- in the rest of the economy, not necessarily on college campuses, in the rest of the economy those have actually grown at a lower rate of inflation. be obviously, productivity's not exactly a word we use this education, which is a real shame. so, again, just kind of asking the question of, you know, why all of our good intentions -- and, let's face it, this is, you know, what we spent in college, around college is about $2 trillion since 1963. it was all well intentioned, but it had -- did it have a very serious unintended negative consequence. in other words, in trying to make college more accessible, did we make it less accessible because we've made it so much more unaffordable? oh, by the way, of the $2 trillion we spent over that time frame, about $200 billion was

spent between 1963 and 1938. there are 1-- 1988. 1.8 trillion was spent as college costs skyrocketed. again, cause and effect? i'll leave that for the reader to judge, and i think mr. vedder's going to talk about that as well. madam chair, you are correct. it's a shame that in 2011 which is the latest figures i have from the college board, average student loan debt after four years of college is $25,000. of those, 57% of students that actually incur debt can, about 65% of private college students incur debt. another interesting statistic is how long it's taking our students to graduate. about half graduate pretty much in the four-year time period. in other words, they graduate within 52 months or about 4.3 years. but the other half raises the average time to graduate to 6.3 years. again, just asking the question

why is that? particularly when you have so many kids leaving high school with college credits in the bag. have we made college funds available to readily that people can dither in college? just a question i'm asking. now, i though part of this hearing is to talk about, you know, other types of pieces of legislation to sewsedly solve the -- to supposedly solve the problem. one thing i think is important to talk about is how those proposals might be scored. currently, the cost of these college aid programs under the scoring for the ten-year period, 2015-2024, because it doesn't account really for varying economic conditions or loan defaults, it's actually showing that the student loan program saves the american taxpayer. in other words, reduces the deficit by $135 billion over ten years. but if you use a fair value basis, if you actually account for tougher economic times,

varying economic times and defaults, you'd actually cost the government $88 billion over that ten-year time frame. so i think it's important if we're looking at pieces of legislation, we actually take a look at the fair value cost and the effect it has on the deficit. finally, the only thing i want to talk about another potentially unintended consequence of some of these programs designed to forgive loans. in 2007 congress passed into law the college cost reduction and access act of 2007 establishing a loan forgiveness program that discharges any retaining debt after ten years of full-time employment in the public service. the borrow must have made 120 payments in order to obtain this benefit. in other words, they can't be in default over the ten year period while they're working for the public sector. politico said that law schools looked at the new laws and saw

an opportunity. income based assessments are lower, so the schools could cover graduates' payments entirely for the first ten years. at georgetown 350 borrowers are taking advantage of this program. at berkeley, there are 263. by the way, the average student debt of a law graduate in georgetown's $150,000, at berkeley it's $115,000. and "the wall street journal" wrote about this too. it's not just berkeley and georgetown. columbia university, university of chicago's also doing that. and until recently, george town had on its law school web site

basically talking about how the school's aid combined with the federal plan, quote: means public interest borrowers might not pay a single penny on their loans ever, exclamation point, end quote. the school spokesman said the statement was removed this year. so, again, i understand that this $3.5 trillion entity called the federal government and the student loan ram and all these aid packages are all well intentioned programs. but i think we have to honestly take a look at the reality of the situation and look at the very severe and serious negative unintended consequences of our good intentions. art of that being we have collectively enticed our children to incur loan debt that we're trying to figure out how to solve the problem that the government's caused. thank you, madam chair. >> thank you. we are going to turn to our witnesses. again, ms. jones, we're going to start with you. >> good morning, chairwoman

murray, senator johnson and members of the committee. my name is britney jones, and i thank you for inviting me here today. my story starts as a second grade student. when the decision was made, i would declare to the world that i would become a second grade teacher. with little deviation, i you are sued this plan throughout my studies, and then as a teacher study followed by receiving my bachelor's degree in early and elementary education. it was during high school when the counselors first began the conversation about attending college. they talked about scholarships and grants and financial aid awards. it was not until i was accepted and learned of the amount of financial aid i would be offered that i feared i could not attend. after conversations with my financial aid counselor and various charts with my parents regarding the necessity of a college degree, i made the

decision to enroll with the assistance of student loans and pursue my dream of becoming a teacher. unfortunately, the cost of attendance constantly increased. upon graduation in 2011, the joy of completing the first portion of my program was overshadowed by the truth that i had borrowed well over $70,000 in student lopes from various sources -- loans from various sources. federally subsidized, unsubsidized, perkins, and student loans. and still i needed to complete another year of school which was required to get my teaching certification. i, like many of the students i encountered as the student virginia education association president, was facing the difficult decision of whether to continue my and education follow my dream of being a teacher or seek immediate employment. i recall one student who, having borrowed the maximum amount of student loans allowed for one school year, was unable to fill the gap in his cost of attendance. he later withdrew from the university and never returned. another student who, ironically, served as our chapter treasurer,

also left school for financial reasons. a full-time student in the masters program, she also had a job this sales and was offered the position of store manager. she decided becoming a teacher was no longer the career path she would follow. for me personally, when confronted with the decision to borrow another $20,000 to complete my program, i decided it was best to postpone attendance. immediately after commencement ceremonies, i drove to an interview for a preschool teaching job, got it and began teaching the following tuesday. wiz excited to have -- i was excited to have a position despite the low wage of $10 an hour because unlike many of my colleagues, i was working in my desired field. i was the lead teacher in my own classroom. i was elated until the loan statements started to come. because i owed approximately $60,000 in federal loans at the time and i was working full-time, i had to start paying them back. this proved problematic.

they figured i'd be able to afford paying $600 a month. i was making $10 an hour and paying over $900 in rent and insurance and other expenses a month. fortunately, my parents were able to help with some of the payments. this continued until i lost my job. in 2012 i received notice that i had defaulted on the remainder of my loans totaling $58,000. a nice gentleman called and requested the date by which i could send the $58,000 check or money order. after a laugh or two, he then said he would be happy to help set up a payment plan. he put in the calculations and determined i would be able to pay $653 a month. at this time i was making $13 an hour and paying $750 for rent with more insurance and utility bills. i worked as many as three jobs

at once just to make my monthly payments. now, two years later, i was finally clear to return to school to complete my masters. the ordeal i went through made this decision a weary one. so the search for alternative programs began. i did not want the collect any more student debt. my goal is to become a classroom teacher, not a teacher with more debt than she can pay in a year. through this program which i will begin this summer, i will become a highly qualified educator with a masters degree. all fees associate with the the cost of attendance will be repaid upon the completion of the program which includes four years teaching in denver public schools. this program is promising, and it is an exciting time in my life. yet almost $50,000 still awaits repayment. student loan debt has been the driving force of my decisions for the last eight years of my life. and according to my current repayment plan, it is projected

to be for the next 25 years of hi life. well into the years for which i should with planning a retirement. -- be planning a retirement. it should not be this way. senator, you have the power to help make clerk -- college more affordable. dries, not debt -- degrees, not debt, should be our collective goal. especially for those who need the most financial help. i urge you to help make student loans more affordable including by allowing refinancing of those loans as legislation from senator warren would do. and i ask you to look for ways to make teaching more attainable. thank you, chairwoman murray, and the members of this committee, for the opportunity to share my story today. >> thank you very much for coming and sharing that with us. mr. chopra? >> chairman murray, senator johnson and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today

about the potential impacts of student debt. you know, the financial crisis destroyed trillions in wealth for families preparing to send a child to college and contributed to large increases in student debt owed by americans who have already graduated. in addition to considering how to make college affordable for future students, we cannot ignore the impact of the $1.2 trillion already owed by more than 40 million americans. there has been growing consensus that today's $1.2 trillion can have repercussions that threaten the broader economy. the treasury secretary remarked that student debt is hampering our economy across multiple sectors of society, and the federal reserve identified student debt as a risk to aggregate household spending. executives in the banking industry have also cautioned that the condition of the student loan market, quote, is now having a significantly negative impact on students, the

economy and taxpayers. according to a survey by the national association of realtors, 49% of americans cited student loan debt as a, quote, huge obstacle to home ownership. and the national association of home builders noted that student debt can imair the ability of graduates -- impair the ability of graduates to apply for a mortgage. also other large purchases delayed. america's largest automaker has cited student debt as a key factor explaining the low levels of car purchases by young people. student debt can hamper entrepreneurship. preliminary research on student debt and small business formation finds a negative correlation between changes in student loan debt and formation of certain small businesses. it may also have a longer term effect on future retirement security. young workers who save early for retirement can generate significant retirement assets over the course of their

careers, but student debt may be stopping workers from even contributing at all. the same can be said about the impact on labor market outcomes. high debt burdens can impact the career choices of new physicians leading some to abandon primary care altogether. student debt can impact the availability of other professions critical to the livelihoods of farmers and ranchers in rural communities. for example, veterinary students are are graduating with debt averaging over $150,000 per borrower, making it less likely they can make ends meet in a dairy med is sin or livestock -- medicine or livestock management practice, and the list goes on. servicing, loan restructuring and refinancing and data availability. first, servicing. as the financial crisis unraveled, many americans faced improper foreclosures due to mistakes from their mortgage servicer.

and i'm concerned inadequate servicing may be contributing to our growing student loan default problem, now more than seven million americans in default. last month after referrals from the cfpb, regulators ordered sallie mae to pay nearly $100 million for violating multiple laws including illegal treatment of service members with student loans. second, unlike other markets, refinance opportunities are few and far between. when mortgage boarer esse interest rates plummet, their credit profiles improve. they try to refinance. responsible student loan borrowers rarely have these options. third, student loan market transparency which we must address. as fed chair janet yellen has notedded, regulators missed some of the important linkages whereby problems and mortgages would rebound through the financial system. currently, financial regulators

in the public lack fundamental information on student loan origination. the drivers of default in the student loan market are not well understood, and is we must work to close the transparency gap. in conclusion, we must ask ourselves how do we preserve the drive to succeed for so many who feel that the dream is just now out of reach? ignoring the warning signs may prove to hold back not only the future growth and dynamism of our economy, but also our entrepreneurial spirit. addressing these concerns in the near term may pay dividends for years to follow. thank you again for inviting me to participate, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. dr. vedder. >> thank you, senator murray and senator johnson and other members of the budget committee. i wish to make three points.

first, the current student loan debt crisis would have never happened had college costs increased at the generate of inflation. the primary cause of the student debt problem is increased university fees. you must deal with the root cause of this, namely runaway college costs inflation. second, there are many reasons for this university price inflation, several i mentioned in my written statement, but one that is relevant here is that rising tuition fees are partially caused by federal student financial assistance programs themselves. the programs themselves are part of the problem. any significant, successful solution to the problem of rising college costs will work only if you radically change the nature and magnitude of federal finance. third, we are at or near a

tipping point where fundamental change will come to higher education. these changes are starting to happen. i believe many policy proposals gaining prominence these days do not fundamentally address the broader problems and, indeed, would likely worsen rather than improve the situation. now, table one looks at the inflation-adjusted increase in tuition fees for various years over the last 75 years. along the lines of senator johnson's earlier comments. we see that for the first half of that period tuition fees tended to rise about 1% more than the overall inflation rate, but since 1978 inflation adjusted tuition growth has about tripled to well over 3% a year. if college tuition inflation since 1978 were what it had been before that day -- say 1% a year -- tuition levels today would be almost 60% lower than

they actually are. .. the most relevant is the growth in federal student financial aid contributed importantly to rising tuition fees. there will be no permanent solution to the debt crisis without reining in federal programs. there are many ways to downsize these programs to make them more progressive which liberal devotees of liberal democrats should like but also smaller and cheaper which republicans should

like. existing programs have failed miserably in providing greater access to lower income americans the proportion, recent college graduates coming from the lowest quartile of the income distribution is smaller than it was in 1970 before progress or a huge student loan programs. rising income inequality has been associated with more federal student financial aid assistance, and i do not think that is coincidental. in my written testimony i show concerns about several administration initiatives, including the college rating system and gainful employment regulation, but i want to briefly comment on the proposal of the senator warren to lower interest rates on loans to past borrowers. i think this is a bad idea for several reasons. beginning with the fact that it does of early nothing to address college tuition inflation. conscientious payers of debt obligation end up getting

punished relative to non pares who get lower interest rates. it will also add tens of billions of dollars to the deficit and national debt. there are other objections as well. we may be over investing in some ways in higher education. the advantages of getting a degree are actually starting to decline, not increase, particularly for young graduates we need to reduce our aid program, doing away with tuition tax credits and constraining other grants. there are no painless solutions, but clearly doing more of the same, lowering interest rates to more loans will worsen the situation and probably enhance cannot reduce, income inequality in america. thank you very much. >> thank you very much. appreciate all of our witnesses today.

a lot of attendance today. discussion that many people are interested in. we have a series of votes beginning in about and a half hour, so i boat -- i will be strict with the time clock today. we will be calling on people in order of arrival. with that, ms. jones, i want to start with you and thank you for showing your story in being here today to testify. your story resonates with me. all of my brothers and sisters and i went to college on pell grants and student loans to finance our education. i taught young children early in my career which is what got me into politics to begin with. but the financial burden on student loan debt is considerably -- considerably more than when i graduated. i share your understanding and appreciate you being here. you said that you paid over $600 a month to cover your federal student loan. how much was your monthly take-home pay at that time? >> at that time my monthly take-home was roughly 1,500.

>> do you have any money saved? >> i do not. i have been using my savings to pay back the loans that have taken out for my undergraduate degree. >> when you ran into difficulty repaying all of your loans, did your servicer offer any alternative repayment plan like the income based repayment options? >> they did not. i did not learn of the program until recently. i believe had i been offered the program my payments would have been roughly $150 a month as opposed to $600 a month. >> if you have been able to take advantage you would have reduced that payment to 150. >> yes. >> do you know how much you would save if you have been allowed to refinance? >> over ten years i would have been able to save more than $4,000. >> i would that have impacted your life? >> well, as educators we always have to buy materials for the classroom. funding is limited.

i think having the extra funding available would make life easier i would be able to save for the future and plan for retirement as opposed to wondering if it would be possible. >> i have to speculate that if you had known he would be in a much better place today, but nobody told you. thank you for being here. you work directly with a lot of student loan borrowers. you talk about some of the macro economic consequences. let me ask you, have you encountered a lot of stories like britney is? >> one of the top issues that a borrower identifies his difficulties repaying, restructuring, enrolling in loan modification programs and staying current to avoid delinquency in default. >> so our services are not reaching out and helping? young people or adults learn their options. >> well, we learned a painful

lesson in the years around the financial crisis and the mortgage servicing market. there is some fundamental incentive misalignment where what may be good for the loan owner or the investor and what may be good for the borrower is not actually the outcome, and market forces due to a modern structure finance can also cause terrible outcomes for everybody. >> i heard from a lot of people today who are paying back loans. they don't know how much they know. they're having trouble getting that information. is that something that you hear a lot as well? >> well, i think it is not actually just not knowing about it. it is also, we hear from many borrowers and see it in the data and number of borrowers are reaching out and seeking help but are often told to choose forbearance. we had continued to hear complaints from service members

and military families. they call about their service members. there are simply told, well, you know, just to a military forbearance. that option will keep interest accruing and make the debt burden harder but is certainly easier for the service of to accomplish rather than actually walking and three steps to enroll in there legally entitled benefits. >> hard to get good information personally about what they should be doing. okay. i have about 50 seconds left. tell me some of the larger implications for our economy. >> and our discussion with the banking industry, particularly the housing industry there is general concern about increasing debt to income ratios. so while the advantages of going to college, the differential between college graduates and not graduates is growing, most of that is growing because non college graduate wages are slipping.

so if college graduate wages are still much higher but generally flat when controlling for inflation but debt which is growing actually even faster than tuition cost, that means less ability to create new credit whether it be for mortgages or to use those funds for other product purposes. >> thank you. my time is up. >> first of all, thank you for coming to testify. i school or college counselor ever go through the calculation of taking on student loan debt and repaying it based on the type of profession you're looking at? >> they did not. actually, when we started the conversations about college they simply let us know that you can apply for millions of dollars in scholarships and grants. you just have to apply for them. you can talk to your financial aid counselor about the other options for paying for college. >> did you ever talked to a financial a counselor, the ability to repay? >> not the initial stages.

they simply were saying you have this much of a balance. you can pay a financial aid package subsidized or unsubsidized loans or you can take them or you can borrow from their family. >> do you wish you would have had like i had a finance professor kind of talk about -- in other words, if you could go back in time would you do the same thing over again, incurred this must that contract figure out a different solution? >> in my experience and from my profession a college degree was absolutely necessary. the option to not get a degree was not available. i would do it because ultimately my goal was to become a teacher. >> have you ever heard of the college of the ozarks? they go by the moniker of hard work you. it is basically cause university set up more of the students' work and is set up so that no one incurs debt. does that sound like a good idea to you? again, to get a college degree, i agree, it is a great investment. the amount of loans ought to

match so that you could handle the money kid done. >> it should. that is why i think being able to refinance the loans the we have would be a great benefit for students like me because the loans made it possible. there was no other funding available to go to school. of course we have to have are degraded teach. you know what an unqualified teacher and i don't see myself doing anything else. whatever it takes to get to a classroom, that is what i will do. many to look at what we can do to make it possible for everybody to get the degree that they want. >> first of all, god bless you for being willing to teach our kids. we wish you the best of luck. mr. rohit chopra, you said student debt is hampering our economy, an entrepreneur ship, a lot of this stuff. how would shifting this debt from a select few to all of our kids or grandkids help our economy, on a trip to north ship? that is all we would be doing, shifting the debt burden from those who incurred the debt to all of our kids and grandkids because they're already been in

the deficit. >> refinance a loan in other product markets such as the mortgage market, when broader interest-rate environments change it is, not only for homeowners but also for their corporate sector as well as the government is to be able to match their debt to something that potentially reflects better their own broader interest rate, credit profile. >> let me interrupt. are you supportive of both -- and trying to think. i was talking about the 2007 act that basically forgives student loan that after ten years of working in the public sector. are you in favor of that? >> we do not know the results of that yet. nobody has actually receive forgiveness from the program. >> again, forgiveness will come on the backs of american taxpayers are additional debt burden on our kids and

grandkids. >> that is the decision of congress. >> i am just asking, are you supportive of that program? going to your comments, how does that not hamper our economy, not hamper entrepreneurship off if we shifted debt burden from a select few of our kids and grandkids. on china to point out what is actually happening. >> the distribution of the debt burden will come when multiple different sectors. i think the marginal propensity to consume for young people who are at prime ages of home ownership, prime ages of purchases of durable goods, this is something that is a great worry to the financial sector. >> but our debt burden, there may be a higher propensity to spend in some sectors but a lower propensity because of the debt burden. are you disturbed about the political and lost three journal stories i was reading about, the law school graduate schools are gaming that programs? does that concern you? >> as we saw in the run-up to

the financial crisis, the incentive misalignment between those two broker loans or offer loans and their alignment with investors are others can lead to a very disastrous consequences. i do not know the specifics of the schools the mention, but aligning incentives between schools, between financial-services providers and others is critical to ensure that market outcomes are efficient. >> thank you. thank you, madam share. >> senator. >> thank you very much, mr. mr. chairman. one of the noteworthy things about student loans, and they stand out from virtually all other debt in this respect, somebody rankled a provision in to the bankruptcy reform act years ago. somebody who has left no fingerprints on the amendment.

i think it was actually snuck in in conference. to this day nobody takes credit for it. but it became the law of the land. and it provides that student loan debt is not discharge a bull in bankruptcy. bankruptcy is provided for in the constitution. it is one of the sword of elemental principles of american entrepreneurs should unsuccess. you have the ability to fail, pick yourself up, get back in there, and do it again. virtually every type of debt is is chargeable and bankruptcy except student loan debt. is there an economic justification for bankruptcy debt being treated differently than any other kind of get in that respect? car was that more in the nature of an unexpected blessing to the

then a largely privately held student loan industry? >> pursuant to a report that was required by congress be to publish soon loan origination, particularly private student loan throughout the past 15 years. the 2005 change in the bankruptcy code, one would anticipate that an ordinary marketplace, prices would come down as bankruptcy code's become more strict. in fact, we saw prices actually went up larger contributors to pricing some of these markets. also suggests that as a general matter the bankruptcy code is operating in a very different way in the student loan market

as it compares to other consumer financial product markets. >> we have had representatives from the private student loan industry come in and testified that it would be wrong to unwind this stuff provision that was stuck in to this provision because it would upset the settled expectations of the loan industry. congress as a whole from time to time, but it is particularly ironic that an industry us like this and in the men nine of setting of resettled expectation of are worse as to how their alarms would be trillions now try to defend themselves by the rule of expectations. i hope that this is an issue we can address. i do not believe there is any

rational distinction between student loan debt and other kinds of debt. thank you for your testimony. you have been a terrific witness and have brought a real dose of reality to this hearing. how has your student loan debt affected other personal decisions in your life like john the home, to have a family, how has that burden of debt changed what you might to with your life? >> i had this conversation with my mother a lot because she has now asked maybe 15 times why is it that i am still pursuing the education field. actually to pay for some of my college education should guard against retirement so that i could, in fact, become the teacher wants to be. the decision to stick with education was driven because of

the desire to want to see the future generations have the same chances that we have. i will say, the decision to take out more student loan made during back-to-school a hard decision to make as referenced in my testimony. i could not justify using moss retirement. >> what has it done to your likelihood of ana home? >> considering i have no funds are now for down payment that has been put off for a few years. roughly in the future i can work something out or we can work something out with the refinance bill so that i can start saving again. >> thank you, ms. jones. >> i think the chair. i wanted just ask, do we know, do we have an estimate why the administration as to how many student loan borrowers would actually take up the potential option to refinance their pre july 2013 student loans and do

we have a sense of what numbers we are talking about? and also, do we have an estimate of what that will cost? i think that it is important so that we understand given the challenges that we are facing as a nation as we look at this piece of legislation. do we know what those numbers are? >> senator, the cfpd is an independent agency, not part of the administration. i'd not have that type of analysis available. what i can say is that we do know from our experience in various mortgage financing programs that the economic impact of individual mortgage refinancing according to a study by the department of housing and urban development led to approximately $25,000 of economic impact per homeowner who was able to refinance.

that being said kamal mortgage is a much larger loan. then again, a younger person with student that may have fire likelihood to be in prime age for a certain purchase. again, i cannot speak -- >> what i am trying to get at is the basics. how much more will add to the debt, how much more we -- is this going to cost? we ask this important question about every piece of legislation silica's it is basic information perhaps with your background -- well, let's start with 100 percent of borrowers. we don't know that 100 percent of borrowers will adopt this. certainly there will be some ratio to that effect, but if 100 percent of borrowers were to refinance their july 12013 loans or a large percentage, what kind of impact, do we have any numbers of we can think about your?

>> i have not personally done any estimation of that. or ever, the math suggests the numbers could be very large. we have, what, 40 million borrowers. not all of them prior to 2013, but most of them. so you have close to 40 million borrowers are long on average 25 or $30,000. you are talking over a trillion dollars. if you -- just say for the heck of it you lower interest rates two percentage points on a trillion dollars. that is 20 billion per year. that is real money. it is pro less than that. i have seen one estimate about the deficit affects majored in the tens of billions of dollars over a long amount of time. i think it is inconsequential amount of money. >> i think it is an important piece of legislation that i would hope we would have. i wanted to ask you about this issue that was raised.

i think it is an important issue. in fact, it is one that i hear from parents and students and people we are going to get to a point where your rate of increase of what it costs to get a college education keeps going up at the rate, no matter what we invest the federal government, the thinking that we will be able to help, you know, the debt burden of someone like ms. jones, then if it is going up hire, you know, i don't know. it may not be higher than health care, but this is a big issue. how do we get at that issue? and if we are going with our investment, how do we get to more accountability for these institutions to actually have to really be market-based, think innovatively and deliver quality education at a more reasonable price. to me this is a big issue and that is going to hit us all a matter of we do here.

>> i completely agree their rising college costs is an american tragedy. we should do everything that we can to make sure that those people who are going to college this fall, the class of 2018, the class of 2019, that they don't tinker a lot of debt. we cannot ignore the class of 2008 and class of 2009 to graduated almost by no fault of their around when they were started as a freshman 2004 they could not imagine that they would graduate into a financial crisis. that is something we have to work on both ends. >> i appreciate that. obviously capri's july 12013 months. it seems to me i would like to have you answer that question for the record.

we are investing already regardless of what we do and legislation to help students in this country get a good education. and i would like to know what your thoughts on how we all these institutions more accountable, how we force them. >> we have a lot of senators and votes coming. i will have an answer for the record. >> i appreciate that. >> thank you. i appreciate both of cuba for hosting this hearing on such a critical issue. statistics are staggering nationally , with over 1 trillion in student debt. i look at the statistics for my home state of wisconsin. 70 percent of students and wisconsin are graduating with an average stay of $28,000 in debt. these numbers, i think, starkly demonstrate that there is a student loan debt crisis facing our nation.

again, and wisconsin individuals with a bachelor's degree report making average monthly payments of about $350. a graduate degrees average four under and $48. and that is just an average figure. obviously there is a below and above. the length of student loan debt obligation was 19 years for persons with bachelor's degrees and over 22 years for persons with professional degrees. as we have heard through your testimony and the question so far, this fact, the statistics are underscored by millions of personal stories and anecdotes. they affect personal decisions. as i have heard testimony and round tables i have held on this issue, people literally deciding

whether and when to start a family because of the impact of this debt. the career decisions. you know, a lot of folks who are getting a higher education because they wanted teacher because they want to do public service or work for nonprofit or community-based service organization. yet the level of debt constrains their career decisions and career choices. you get out of college and start a business. you get out of college. do you rent? do you buy? the move back, japan's? i have heard a lot of people facing those choices in their late 20's and early 30's. do you buy a used car, new car? all of those have ripple effects i am glad they you have been

talking about it hit. sharing your own story. some many have stepped forward to do that because this is a crisis that we need to confront. i have in my very limited time to questions of want to pose about a couple of realities in our current law and stagnate. i have heard from a number of students to have toehold down part-time work, sometimes almost full-time work while studying. and they are hit with something that is known commonly as the work penalty because of their income may exceed the income protection allowance that is part of the eligibility calculation for federal financial aid under the higher education act. and i am working on legislation

that deals with this work penalty. of wonder if he could speak to the importance of the availability of financial aid to working students. >> their return after being displaced from the labour force. part-time jobs to support their families. that is something i would be happy to discuss further. >> the factors that were closed. there was not a supply of jobs without significant retraining. we have heard a lot about that. the other thing that i wanted to follow upon, the work that you have done regarding services, you know, anything from simply failing to provide quality

customer service to ignoring some of the legal obligations around notice and payment options and fees to certain borrowers. i have heard from people in wisconsin about the challenges about getting quality information and that frustration and additional costs that come along was simply trying to pay back what they'll -- viejo. a constituent wrote me about loans she took off for her daughter's education and believed that she had finished paying in off years ago only to find out of the blue that there were claims that she still owed money. i am wondering if you can speak to how strong the requirements for student loan services like the ones that could give students valuable information. >> as i mentioned earlier, we learned a valuable lesson from the breakdown in the mortgage servicing market, but i would also add we have learned as

financial regulators from the past ten years another very important lesson. in 2004 the student loan marketing association was privatized and operated as a private company for the past ten years. it has since restructured as a different entity. but despite the significant public benefits and subsidies that the successor corporation received, it was sallie mae and that was ordered in 2008 to stop breaking multiples of. they continued -- >> i am going to have to move on we have a lot of senators who are waiting to ask questions. vote -- votes will be called shortly. we could get an answer in writing would appreciate it. senator, i know that -- okay. i want to thank both senator warren and caring for helping us i know that you both have questions. we still have senator mark

kelly, seven knocking, warner, widen, and votes will be called shortly. if members want to go vote and come back, we will keep going. we will go to senator now. >> thank you, madam chair. mr. k-9, one of the statistics i find interesting is in comparison to germany a year of college costs 4% to victims median income. here it is 51%. how does that affect the aspirations of students in these two nations? >> you know, the lack of affordability of college may not only impact the students themselves but it also might impact the broader family balance. as we saw, the rise in student loan debt was not only because college was increasing cost. it was also because students

themselves are bearing a larger share of total college costs compared to their parents or other sources. that means that because people have less home-equity they have less savings, they dealt with unemployment themselves. those costs cut shifted to students and may actually impact not only the student but the families aspirations themselves about how they will prosper economically over the long term. >> does this reflect the philosophical issue over whether education is a public good that not only benefits individual children the strengthening society is all? >> i am not a philosopher, but i believe that i guess your point there, the positive externality of a more educated population benefits all of us. there is empirical literature to suggest that. at the same time we need to make sure that people are completing, people are able to repay their student dead and their student

that does not displace other practice spending. >> let me put it a different way . if college -- looking at the challenge of debt and deciding a cannot pursue a path where i have the possibility of a debt equal to of home mortgage, home millstone of debt around my neck pulling me down because of the consequences, the struggle, that not only impact the individual but the future prosperity of our entire society if folks in student generation do note reach the fullness of their potential of their contribution back to the economy? >> behind all the facts and statistics, the broader question about the american tradition of entrepreneurialism and risk-taking and unfortunately too many people feel that they cannot take those risks, start at

small business out of their garages, start a family. and that is something we should think about. >> us think about how this amplifies, if you will, the inequality, students are i'm able to purchase a home early in life and home ownership is is the major builder of personal family wealth for working americans , doesn't that amplify the quality of wealth in our society? >> as i noted in testimony, there is a large gap in certain simulations of graduates who do have student dead and those who cannot in terms of what those final outcomes might be for their retirement. so traditionally younger workers of been able to stash cash away for a home down payment or saving for retirement. if they are not able to make those early contributions they lose those compounding effects.

so student debt, if it's soaks up some of that ability to invest enslave the long-term repercussions could be real. >> amplified quality and wealth. thank you. i just wanted to make that point. the thing that i am most concerned about this if the impact on aspirations other than working-class communities, children go to the same public high-school that i went to. what i am hearing is there is not a path in which they have an opportunity to thrive, that is to pursue their potential wishes he going to affect their behavior in high school as to whether or not, how hard they're going to work to make that pat possible. my concern here is that this is the heart of the american dream. there is the full opportunity to thrive for every american whether there of the child of a mechanic, the child of a janitor, the child of a seal, given this

huge hurdle of college debt, is that really compromising their vision? >> the change in aspirations from the stories that we are constantly submitting to the public record illustrate many of the things you just described. >> i am going to have to interrupt. the votes are occurring right now. i will let you answer that for the record. i appreciate. stabbed not to mccain, warner, cain, widen. i will go vote and come back. on the other end of that list go with me and come back. we will continue. >> thank you. very much for hosting this critically important hearing thank you for working hard and sticking in there and doing what is right, it's a work hard. like most people, most of us

when i was in school did not have the capacity to turn to my parents and say, hey, can i borrow 20,000 or 30,000 or 5,000 or whatever it was. most people are not in a situation where they have a lot of options. from what your saying you were in the situation that i was. fortunately for me in the 70's we did a lot more on scholarships. i would not have gone to college. i was fortunate to get a bachelor's and master's. the top of my little 93 person graduating class in michigan. my dad was sick. we did not have a lot of money and i qualified for tuition scholarships. that got me to college. we don't have those anymore. when i look at the numbers, unfortunately the state of michigan now is one of the highest in the country at cutting higher education, over 32 percent of the funding to universities and communities. colleges interestingly.

public universities have not increase tuition by that same 32%. they have increased it about 19%. more than we would like to see, but they are taking significant cuts. what i find interesting is the for-profit universities actually have increased their tuition twice as much as public universities, twice as much. and 57 percent of the for-profit school grads are coming out with 30,000 more in debt. 57% rather than 12% of public-school. there are a lot of things involved which we need to be looking at. but i do not think that we should say in the meantime students should not have the same opportunity that all the rest of us have had when we want to finance a house

which is to get the lowest interest rates available today. asking questions that -- the good news for this refinancing, unlike other things that congress has done over the years, the bank bailout, all kinds of other things, this is paid for. that is the good news. so this is not adding to the deficit. what we are proposing is a task everybody to chip in, grow the economy, create a fair shot for everybody. it is fully paid for. i have to say, i am so very surprised at your testimony. in terms of saying that we should reduce the federal and we have too many graduates. while. , at georgetown center on education work force has said there is going to be,

and out of the one and half million jobs expected to be created in michigan alone in the next six years, a million of the million and and half will take education beyond high school. when i look at the national association of manufacturers to say there are 600,000 jobs available right now, we can't match up skills. not all of those are for year, maybe to year in terms of community college. when we look and then knead on stem, science, technology, engineering, math and where we're going as an economy, i am amazed that you think that we have too many graduates going into our economy. i wonder if you might speak about that. >> certainly. we have -- if you look at the bureau of labor statistics data from the

people who are working with college degrees in the united states today, nearly half of them are in jobs that the bls has characterized as jobs that do not require 4-year degrees. that statistic has to be taken with all little grain of salt. i am the first to admit there are judgment calls. the unemployment rate among college graduates 21-24, just right out of college last year was above the overall u.s. on a plan rate. ms. jones story, which is a compelling story, is one of someone who has worked hard and so forth but is making $10 an hour or $13 an hour. this goes back to actually eat senator widens great bill that wants to bring more information to the students before they make

these wrong decisions. i think there is a huge information problem. i see we're out of time. i don't know who is running a hearing now. >> let me just say in conclusion that i don't hear anywhere from any business or anybody that i work with right now that we need less education for folks. thank you again. we're going to do everything we can to give you a fair shops to lower those costs they can buy a house. >> thank you, senator. thank you to the committee members. as a richmond resident i appreciate your testimony. let me read for the record again something you read. i do not wanted to pass unnoticed. student loan that has been the driving force of my decisions for the last eight years of my life. according to my current repayment plan it is projected to be for the next 25 years of my life well into the years for which i

would be planning for retirement. that is a powerful statement that is a powerful statement would like to be a student in their class because someone who wants to be teachers much as you do, somebody who has been willing to take on that much debt and still fight to achieve your dreams of being a teacher, someone who is willing to move halfway across the country to get master's degree, i know you are and are going to be one fantastic teacher. thank you for your commitment to focus on the cost side of this equation. bringing down the cost of higher education. i support so many of the issues on loans, the ability to refinance the student loan. i am focused on cost issues. i think we have probably done a disservice to students and their families by not laying out in a more clear fashion as a public policy matter lower-cost ways to get the kinds of skills or degrees the need to succeed. for example, one kind of skill that you can get is

not a college degree but a licensed professional credentials. the georgetown work for center says that 27 percent of young workers with license or certificates are in more than those with a bachelor's degrees. it is not that you don't get education after high school but sometimes the right education is an american welding society certificate. as cisco systems administrator certificate. i do not think that we coach and counsel our young people that are not the same as higher ed degrees. most of our financial aid policies, you can't use military tuition assistance benefits. $4,500 a year for college or community college courses. you cannot use those benefits to pay a $300 certification exam. it is foolish. second, we abdul-rahman possibilities for students. more and more states are embracing the notion that students while in high school should be able to get

dual enrollment credit. you can't use pell grant credit. you can't use the current program program to pay for college credits that you can obtain for a cheaper cost and high school with dual enrollment. that is a cheaper way to get college credit. it was enormously helpful. my family could not afford the college's i got into when i first applied and that to tell me when everyone else was celebrating, you're going to have to go talk your way into someplace because everywhere that except to do is too expensive. dual enrollment is a way to reduce college costs. ap credits are way to reduce college costs. tell lot of students now today in your shoes are going to j sargent reynolds. and when they do that the total cost shrinks. for them to do that someone has to sit down with them and counsel them about this

as a path. you can get a four year degree and it will be 25 or 30% cheaper if you start at the local community college. what this tells me is -- i am concerned about that. probably most concerned about this caller's cost issue. i do think that there are already in number of pathways for people to get calloused agrees with the credentials and certificates that will enable them to work. we have an obligation to provide better information. and we also have an obligation to provide policies that don't discourage or treat a second-class education some of the things like the professional certificates and certifications. i would like to ask her, and terms of the information provision, you have concerns about the grading system, and i do. i think grades obscure more than they reveal in terms of quality, but in terms of

providing students and parents with information earlier in their lives so that they can make decisions, what can we do at the federal level using the leverage of the investment we made? >> one of the things that we have noted is that it is also very difficult to even compute what the true cost of colleges for many families cannot always tuition's changing from year to year but also a challenge to project what your monthly payment will be when you take on a certain amount of debt this year. just like we saw for the mortgage market where interest rates might reset or conditions change people really are rolling the dice. the cftc has created a number of tools to assess, but of course there is more that should be done. >> the time of the gentleman has expired.

>> thank you, senator. very good testimony. thanks to all three of you. when it seems to me that one of the things that we talked about -- and you touched on this in answer to your questions of senator murray -- there are programs like the income based repayment that apparently have a very low uptake rate. isn't one of the things we should do regardless of what we do about interest rates or refinancing, to make more information available to borrowers both at the beginning and at the end of their schooling so that they know what these options are? that would have helped you dramatically apparently. >> it definitely would have felt in the beginning to know instead of -- well, to know what i was getting into when i signed my promissory notes. at the beginning you're told this is what you need to get through college. you can deal with it

afterwards. he won't be encouraged and trees. take those first. then you take care of subsidized loans. we will talk about that more graduation. but what i realized is that even in that we are losing potentially great teachers who are walking away from the profession. >> right, but there may be options that they have that they don't even know that they have that would help them stay in that profession he worked in this field. there are something like seven different repayment options. how about streamlining those, making it more available, making more information available, is that one thing that we ought to do? >> the simplicity of how to repay your loans to my think, is a very important goal. i am also struck by everything we heard from a former employee of student

loans. they told me that they are evaluated partially on how quickly they can get someone off the phone and calls the barrell. that can lead to very quick interaction were being transferred. and you might get a short cut answer rather than the answer that ultimately is better for the owner of the loan, the borrower, and maybe even the economy more broadly. so addressing those incentives is also a major concern. >> that is something we need to look at regardless of what else we do. i enjoyed your testimony. i will share with you a story to use next time. and a former wi-fi was a talk-show host. i interviewed in the late 70's a financial aid officer of one of our colleges. we talked about college tuition. he said an interesting thing. for the past 40 years the cost of a good private colleges ben about the same as a new ford.

in the 40's it was a thousand dollars. gradually went up to 3,000. but something happened because today about 20,000 the cost of a private college education is approaching 60. i think we need to explore why that happened. have colleges come and tell us why what they sell as increased two and three times the rate of inflation and what it is their buying that costs so much that is -- we are talking about the financing cost. the underlying problem is the cost of the product. as you pointed out, if tuition had risen at the rate of inflation since 1978 we would not be having this hearing. we have got to be focusing on that. i am concerned. and part of it is accountability. i want to be sure when we talk about accountability and holding schools accountable that we apply standards such as gainful employment and graduation

rates and those things. we should not penalize those institutions that are taking higher risks with lower income students. if you could comment on that >> the cfpb is not -- we are not exploring that specific regulation. what i can say is, aligning the incentives between the schools, whatever loan programs or financial-services institutions is important. we want to examine how we can increase accountability so that the outcomes are emperor for everybody regardless of where they come from. >> i think we all want to increase accountability. we have to be careful how we do it that we do not inadvertently penalize the very students that we want to get into the system by placing requirements that

would be -- that would disincentive guys -- that is not really a word. that would punish schools undertaking the risk to give the students in education. thank you very much. thank you, madam chair. >> thank you very much. >> thank-you, chair. thank you for your years of passion and commitment to this effort. it is particularly timely right now. i think we understand that our students are just getting smothered with these costs and bills. they are up to their eyeballs in debt. this is having a huge effect on their ability to have the product of life that they would want, and it takes a toll in a myriad of array of voice. recently i was making a tour of college campuses and/or in. had talked about this legislation. a young woman came up to me and said collier no tamayo

50, $60,000. what i want to do more than anything else as have a family. i am not convinced somebody will marry me when i'm carrying around those kinds of debts. she cheered up. we talked about various kinds of options. that is pretty representative of what is going on out there. it is taking an enormous toll, putting students and young people in shackles. seems to me there to kind of pieces. the first is we have to help -- repayments, open to a variety of different approaches. the second is a different kind of issue. that is making sure that not only do we get students in the door but they get more value for their education.

senator rubio, senator warner and i have introduced a piece of legislation called the student right to know before you go at. for the first time it would be possible for students to get this information in one place. heaven forbid when students and families find out about the school is doing a good job in terms of graduation rates, lack of needed remedial education, if us cool is doing a good job and another school isn't, the other school better clean up its act or heaven forbid market forces would kick in. that would in effect and vans the schools are doing a good job. my understanding to what to get the candidate the need to do this right will take a piece of legislation, whether it's the bill that senator warner , a caribbean,

are something -- by the way, and other senators have bills for purposes of government work it is close enough. i think this is what is needed. are we going to be able to get the data that we need to really set up this kind of seamless opportunity for students the more value. >> well, senator, i first of all i'm very pleased the of introduce this legislation. it is ironic that the universities that are in the knowledge business are sometimes very hesitant about providing knowledge about there own students, what they are earning, the irs to provide enormously

useful in information on the earnings of graduates by major's coming institutions in this modern age without violating privacy or anything. why don't we do that? we collect all this data. the social security administration has the capacity to provide a lot of information. if part of the problem is student financial burden, shouldn't the students know at least what is the probability they are going to are in a certain amount of money when they graduate? so i think information bills are important. i think they are low cost. they are consumer friendly. markets work better when there is more information around. and i think the efforts of you and senator rubio and warner and others, and is one of the few positive developments right now. >> i want to let senator murray have a chance to summarize because we have a vote in a minute.

i am something of a privacy hot around here. you can see that with the nsa and a host of other issues. we have tried hard to have significantly stronger privacy protections then we have today under a variety of programs. my last request follows your good work. reader much like to work with you and the other students on this. we really get this right. we deal with the refinancing or repayment or ever is necessary. and we get the council students who are getting smothered and really facing these problems because there has been so much foot-dragging here. ..

thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> i think the va has the potential to be one of the finest institutions in the world. we have seen certain aspects that the pharmacy cannot be matched. it is one of the best in the world. many efficient. there are many things efficient within the system. but what we should ask ourselves, when someone came up with the idea of seeing a veteran of 14 days, but actually, like a good idea. veterans should be seen promptly. what we should be questioning is if we made a mistake that somehow overloaded the system, how come people's names disappeared off list?

how come hundreds of thousands of veterans electronically no longer existed? that should be the question. retaliation exists because its culture. this culture retaliation, that is really the cancer to the veteran administration. most physicians and nurses and people working, morale is extremely low. people come up and say did that have been here? people care. when i heard some of the testimony i heard from the phoenix va, it was gutwrenching. i couldn't sleep. and i believe a lot of people within the va system feel the same way. but there exists a cancer within leadership, a few individuals that perpetuate this idea, that we should be silent, that we shouldn't stand up and do the right thing and be