general rations. i guess maybe it's the irish in me. c-span: maybe i missed it, but you didn't answer the question about whether you're going to do another book. >> guest: no, i didn't. [laughter] c-span: what's your thinking? >> guest: oh, i'm thinking all the time about it. something happens when one of these ideas just clicks, and that's it. and i can't explain what that process is. and i just know that's what i want to do. and it'll happen. it'll be different. i've, i've never undertaken a subject that i knew a lot about. i didn't know much about john adams. i knew a certain amount. i wasn't an adams scholar or a truman scholar or a brooklyn bridge scholar.

i, and if i knew all about it, i wouldn't want to the write the book because, to me, the pull is the adventure of it, learning. i think about how much i'm going to learn by taking on this subject. and i don't want to -- i want to be surprised, i want to make discoveries. i want to not just make discoveries of some collection of letters in some place you wouldn't expect to find them, but i want to make the discovery that comes with suddenly, oh, i get it, that's how it worked. or that's who did that. that, to me, is -- the work is the reward. c-span: the name of the book is "the greater journey: americans in paris in the 1800s." our guest has been david mccullough, and we thank you. >> guest: thanks, brian. i love to have a conversation with you, and i might write another book just on the chance that i get to come back and we

can talk about it. c-span: it's a deal. [laughter] ♪ ♪ >> for a dvd copy of this program, call 1-877-662-7726. for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q&a.org. q&a programs are also available as c-span podcasts. ♪ ♪ c-span: david marc cull allowing, author of "the greater journey," -- mccullough, out of all the people you write about in this book, who would you really not want to meet and

talk with because of what you learned about them? >> guest: i can't think of one. i'll tell you why. this book was different for me in form than anything i've ever done because if you're writing a biography or writing the history of an event or an accomplishment, there is a certain obvious track, a certain structure that's built into the subject, and can you're obligated to respect that and cover it, write about it in all fairness to your reader. the cast of characters is

already ordained. with this book i could cast the book myself. i would pick people that i wanted to write about. there are probably 12 major characters this -- in this book, probably 20 some people overall who appear, americans, but that's a traction of the number -- a fraction of the number that went to paris during this 70-year period that i'm covering. so in organize toking the book -- organizing the book, organizing my approach to this subject, i was in many ways like a casting director. they would come in, show me what they could do, tell me their story, and then i'd say don't call me, i'll call you. in effect. so i'm picking the people that i want to keep company with for

four years. and i didn't pick anyone that i wasn't interested in or that i thought would be uninteresting. so there are one of them that i wouldn't give a great deal to meet, the talk to. c-span: of all the the characters in the book, which one has the most to see this the united states? in other words, a home or a museum or something that you can see their work or their life? ..

including colonel shaw at charlestown. it is a first case of american art to portray black americans, african-americans as heroes. it's spectacular. there's a copy of it in the national gallery, a duplicate. his famous memorial, which is in fox creek cemetery which was for the wife of henry adams, which is a very mysterious sculptural work which remains constantly of interest because of its mystery. then there's the sherman statue, which is in new york city, he questioned statute of general sherman. he got us a victory leading him

to 59th street and fifth avenue, gilded, magnificent piece. i think the greatest questioned statute in the country. been there's the memorial for admiral farragut which is in madison square in new york city. again a superb piece and made in paris, as was the sherman statute. then there's his home which is the national park site where you can see just about everything. he did coins, all kinds of things. so he's conspicuous. john singer sargent paintings of course are in most every museum as our mary's paintings. i would say james fenimore cooper's novels everywhere in america, still read in school, still partner,. >> host: is cooperstown named after him treasury know, after his father.

his father founded the town and he grew up in. c-span: go back to john singer sargent could you talk a lot about him. >> guest: there he is. c-span: what was his age? >> guest: he was an american prodigy. he was a gifted, notably, astonishing the gifted painter when he was still 18, yet 18. he painted several of his major masterpieces when he was still in his 20s. is madam x. as it's known. his daughters of edward boyd. his spanish dancer, all done in paris, and all done when he was still in his 20s. there's madam x. she was also an american.

most people did realize that, living in paris. and this painting was at the time considered scandalous because of her pose, her low-cut evening attire. there he is, sargent, a young man standing in his studio with a portrait of madame x. behind him. c-span: who was married to set? >> guest: a young woman from pennsylvania who decided that she wasn't just going to be a woman who paints but she's going to be a painter. that's her self-portrait, a beautiful watercolor self-portrait. she became the only american artist who was accepted, taken in by the impressionists as one of them in paris. and her paintings, this is the painting of her mother this was

the first of her impressionist painting. and her paintings are largely almost entirely about women. women seen in private life, the security of the home or the garden. doing private things needing reading, having tea. and their hold on the viewer has been consistent for well over 100 years, and her importance as a master, as a genius of american art, only increases with time. she was a brave woman. she went to europe, went pursuing a career seriously as no woman ever have. no american woman. and bound to excel, and she certainly did.

and having through much of her life having to look after her parents with whom she lived in paris most of her adult life -- excuse me. c-span: not which one but who are the ones of the most interesting personal story, the relationship with their wives, their children and all that and when they were in paris? >> guest: well, i think in many ways saint guidance is the most personal interesting story. he was an immigrant shoemaker son india could go to work when he was 13, cutting cameos which was an art form or a craft, real consequence than. wearing cameos popular with women and men. and he learned the art of cameo cutting. also demonstrated that he has ability as an artist and sculptor beyond that.

and his shoemaker father helped to pay for him to go to take some art courses at cooper union in new york, one of the first art schools. this is after the civil war when things had changed in the united states, as far as availability of training in art. and he went off to paris at age 19 to become a sculptor. he was the first american admitted to the bose arch. to be admitted was a true, like getting into one of the greatest of our universities today try let me ask you that question. what is the bose arts? >> guest: the school of art of architecture and sculpture in paris on the left bank. still there, same place where he went. he was admitted as a student in sculpture, and he studied in paris up to the time of the outbreak of the franco-prussian war where he then went to italy to continue his studies. three years in paris as a student.

he came back in the 1870s for another three years, by which point he was married, and his wife was a painter. they met when he was studying painting in italy. her story, the story of the marriage is extraordinary. and i was able to tell that story because her letters which numbered more than 200 have all survived, and they are all in the library at dartmouth college which is very near cornish home that they finally established on the connecticut river in new hampshire. >> did you go there? >> guest: oh, yes. both to work with the letters from dartmouth and to the site at cornish. c-span: i know you stated you use information from over 30 different institutions in the united states. how many different places did you physically go? >> guest: just about all of

them. harvard, yale, collections in boston, elections in new york, collection sure in washington. chicago. i love that part of the. c-span: how many times did you two pairs in the middle of writing this? >> guest: we would go at least once a year, so four times. and we would say about two weeks or so. the research was almost all fear, brian, because the letters are here, that i resorted. the letters are written to people back home. the diaries were brought home. so the diaries are accessible in this country. and as is of utmost importance, a newspaper which was published in paris in english -- drama and

he was -- try to the library of congress is all those newspapers and they are invaluable. and it's still a bookshop in paris right on the river italy. c-span: isn't he an italian? >> guest: he's italian -- he was an italian from england who started the newspaper. it wasn't an american paper. it was in english language initially for england but every american read it and does filled with news of americans in paris. c-span: how much of that did you read? >> guest: enormous amount. i would guess what goes into a book is one 20th of what has been read. so that i read, i don't know, how to quantify it, hundreds of pages, typewritten pages. c-span: e.g. do it in a here and down or did you go to the library of congress?

>> guest: i would do it at the library of congress with someone who works with me or my take prescriptions of it from the library of congress, particularly transcriptions of letters because he is much better at reading and writing than i am. and very fast on the computer typing it up. so he will often spend days at the library of congress in the archives transcribing these newspaper accounts, or the letters. but then i have to go through them and decide if i want this or i used that or i need more of such and such. there were times when we both would go together to look at things. i couldn't do what i do without him, his help, in this -- to leave home to come to washington or to go to philadelphia or wherever these different

collections might be time after time after time, and sit and transcribe would -- my book probably would have taken me seven years instead of four. and i'm at a stage now where if you were to tell me he doesn't want to do it anymore, then i probably wouldn't do that kind of a book. i would write something more personal or more accessible for my own collections or my own recollections. c-span: i'm going to ask you a question. you probably don't want to answer, but of all the books, you've written what, 10 books? >> guest: nine. >> host: how do you think this book is going to do treasure i don't mind and sure that at all because i don't know. i've never known how any book would do. c-span: what was your biggest? >> guest: john adams. c-span: second biggest? >> guest: i'm not sure.

1776 might be. i've never sat down and thought what -- how will this sell, or what the people want to read about now? that doesn't -- you get to the. c-span: what about your publisher the? >> guest: well, they never said no to me. whatever i wanted to do, they said fine. i may have told you this story before, but we're old friends, you've got here some of these stories more than once, right? i was working on my second book and i went one night to a party and we were introduced by the host to a woman from washington who was a somebody, or at least she thought so, and i was introduced -- this is david mccullough, he's writing a

book about the brooklyn bridge. and she put her bed back -- she put her head back and said, who in the world would ever want to read a book about the brooklyn bridge? well, i was young. i was in my early '30s and i was just launching into my second book. and i was really, i was really mad that she said that. and on the way home i was practically punching the dashboard as i was driving my car. but before we got home, it suddenly dawned on me, that's a perfectly good question. who in the world would want to read a book about the brooklyn bridge? and what's your answer, mccullough? and my answer was, i would. i want to read a book about the brooklyn bridge. the book that i want to read about the brooklyn bridge doesn't exist. i will write it so i can read it. and that in many ways is what i've been doing with all of the books.

i want to write about john adams. i want to know about john adams. whether the great reading public does, i have no idea. and i've had a publisher who was believed in what i was doing and believed in my books, and i've never had a different publisher from simon & schuster, and all my books are still in print. that needs more to me than almost anything else about my rights life and what have you have different editors? >> guest: yes, i have, three different editors. c-span: do you have someone in your family read? >> guest: it's like life. it depends on the personality of the editor. each has been should substantially in his way. i'm very fond of the people at my publisher. a lot of authors don't feel that way, but i am. the reason i stay with simon & schuster is i'm so fond of the people that i work with.

i've had the same copy editor since i published my first book, more than 40 years ago, still there, gypsy, wonderful, wonderful woman. wonderful human being as well as a terrific copy editor. c-span: have you changed the way you write and what you write on, and what about this book? you said you wrote some of it on martha's vineyard, some of it when you travel. sounds like a computer now. >> guest: no, no. i work on a manual typewriter. take it with me. if they can go, i'm not going to write. when i decided i was going to try to write a book in 1965, we were living in white plains, new york. i was working in new york as an editor and writer at american heritage magazine. and i thought well, i did my writing at the office on the job. i had a portable typewriter.

if i'm going to undertake a book i better get a real typewriter. i bought a secondhand royal typewriter, high rise, black typewriter, the kind with the little glass cover for letters, little dished letters. and i probably paid $50 for it, maybe less. i've written everything i have written since, everything on that typewriter. there's nothing wrong with it. it is a magnificent example of superb american manufacturing. nothing wrong with it at all. it probably has 975,000 miles on it. and i've to change the ribbons obviously. and my children and my friends, others say to make him don't you realize how much faster you can go if he used a computer?

of course i can go faster. i don't want to go faster. anything, i want to go more slowly. i don't think all that fast. and i love the idea of a key coming up and printing a letter. i can understand that. i would be horrified to think as i was working and if i pressed the wrong button it would zap out two weeks or two months of work. i'm technologically challenged, i guess is the explanation. and sometimes i wonder if maybe, maybe it's writing the books, the typewriter. c-span: what do you do but the information that you've gathered, the references and all that, the diaries, how do you do that when you're traveling? do you have that on a computer? >> guest: know. i have it in file folders and i take it with me. i take whatever chapter, the material for the chapter i'm working on. so i put it in the car, put it

in the back, put in the trunk. just a long with the typewriter. away we go. and i'm writing all the time. i'm writing when i'm flying into plate. i don't mean literally writing. i'm thinking. people often say to me, and perfectly good question, how much of your time do you spend writing and how much of the time do you spend doing research? great question. no one ever says how much of your time do you spend thinking? and that's probably the most important part of it. just thinking about it, thinking about it, what you've read, what you need to reread, what you need to think more about, putting things out literally out on the table and looking at them, putting a painting, reproduction of a painting and really looking at tha the paintg and thinking about that painting, or the setting, where things happen is very important to me.

this whole book that i have just written is set in paris, where it's happening. another book i wrote was set in brooklyn to another was set in panama. much of, several books have been set here in washington, and i believe that the setting has great effect on the way things happened, the way things went. the setting is part of history, just as the movie is part of the why -- just as the who is part of the why. i really have to soak up the setting. so when rosalie and i went to paris, i went there to walk the walk. i went there to see it in the winter when it's awful and damp and cold, gray. in the summer, the spring and the fall.

i went -- if i read something that took augustus saint-gaudens 20 minutes to walk from his apartment to studio, i went over and made the walk from his apartment to his studio to see if that was right. i want to be out on the pontoon the way anna willard and others were and feel what they felt, the bridge over the heart of the city. it's the oldest bridge in paris in the 17th century. i think listening, smelling, feeling what the chair feels like, rubbing your hands on the surface of the cathedral

sculpture, on the exterior. all of that is part of getting closer to it. i'm always trying to get closer to those people, closer to that place, closer to that time. and asking questions. i do a lot of -- spent a lot of time with students lecturing or doing visiting locations at universities and colleges. and they are so programmed, so responsible for being able to answer questions about i wonder sometimes how much experience, how much time they spent asking questions. that's how you find things out, ask a lot of people. people have a feeling that what i do is come and others too,

similar kinds of work, that it's a solitary endeavor. not at all. i'm with people all the time talking to people, working with librarians, working with archivists, talking to experts, talking to -- when i was writing about augustus saint-gaudens, i spent the better part of one day with a sculpture with pieces, finding out how is it done? what's hard? was easy? what's chancy? what's dangerous? and the same thing with painters or the politicians. i remember reading once, for example, the woodrow wilson, when he was a historian and scholar, wrote a book, very famous book, and important book about congress. never set foot in congress wants the whole time he was working on

the book. you've got to go and watch how it's done, listen to it, get a sense of the timing and the times when people are not doing anything much. that did time as it were in their lives, and how did they handle that. i loved reading about ellie washburn, for example, would get so restless sitting in congress, he couldn't stand it. he would listen to other people talk. he would start to rattle through pages at his desk and as he summed up in the gallery go up and visit with them. he just got so antsy, he couldn't cope with that side of it. c-span: what do you plan to do with the typewriter? where are you going to put the david mccullough papers? >> guest: i don't know. i'll probably -- i would like to think that yale, my album under am only interested in the papers. the typewriter -- my alma mater.

may become an heirloom, i don't know if. c-span: it's the same kind of thing when you go out and look, people want to see your -- >> guest: yes. the typewriter is part of the process for me. c-span: what about the little -- >> guest: it's like an old car you've been driving for many years. you just want to -- kind what about the little house you do all your work in? >> guest: yes, right. i don't know. i don't think about that, brian, but thank you for asking me trying to maybe i can get an answer sunday from the. in this book, a couple people you write about our friends, more than a couple. you've got a big painting on one page of lafayette county also right about de tocqueville coming here while everybody else was going there. put those in context. put lafayette county context. >> guest: lough yet was the last living here of the

revolutionary war at the time these young people were starting over to paris. several of them, and the willard, samuel f.b. morse and james fenimore cooper had all been involved with lafayette's famous visits to the united states in 1826 -- 1824. and they were going in part to paris because they wanted to see him again while he was still alive. and that painting is by morse, and it hangs in the city hall in new york. it's a magnificent painting, very large, very important any. and lafayette toured these people. he gave a great deal of time to all of them. and he was terribly symbolic, wonderfully symbolic, terribly important to them. c-span: there's a big painting of lafayette and the house of representatives. how important was the to this

country? >> guest: he was very important in the symbolism of a wealthy aristocrat from france, and joining in the fight of soldiering on with our army. also, of course is very symbolic of the part that france played in our revolutionary war. it wasn't just that they sent an army here, but that they really bankrolled the cost of the war. they loaned the money that it took to carry the war through to completion and victory on our part. and, in fact, the army, at the surrender under cornwall was larger than the army under washington. most people, most americans don't realize that. we're sitting here today in a city designed by a frenchman, a

french engineer and architect. the great symbolic work of sculpture of the gate we do the country in new york, the statue of liberty came from france by french culture -- sculptor. countless rivers and pass and universities and colleges all over the country with french names. we don't pronounce them the way they do but the influence of france on this country is far greater than most americans appreciate. we doubled the size of the country, or than doubled the size of the country with the louisiana purchase which, of course, was a decision made by napoleon to sell that. c-span: another frenchman did this painting, the wrath of medusa. >> guest: jericho, jericho's

wrath of medusa was a painting that simply froze, captivated, enthralled americans first of writing at the louvre, as it still does. one american who was swept away by and wrote very passionately and eloquently about it was harry beecher stowe to most people don't think of harriet beecher stowe in paris but she was in paris a great deal and loved it and had a very profound effect on her. c-span: what did she do in paris and how long was she there? >> guest: she was there primarily to hide away from the publicity that surrounded her publication of uncle tom's cabin. she'd been on a tour in england where the book was not only in print but it had become sensational bestseller, and it hadn't yet been published in french. so when she got two pairs, she could go anywhere without causing any star.

and she spent a lot of time at the louvre, spent a lot of time just walking the city. wrote wonderfully about the experience, started studying french, came back again another time. it's fascinating how paris, how it affected her. and what he did was, she said it emphasized to her how much beauty had been denied her in her puritanical upbringing in new england. and beauty isn't just something you see that someone else has created. the beauty is in view and a love of beauty is part of being human. and it's by being in a place where beauty is so respected and so considered such an important part of life that you suddenly discover how much of that love and that respect is in you, part

of human nature. c-span: your book on john adams ended up as a series on hbo. is there a series in this book? >> guest: the book hasn't been talked about with any serious intent that i know that. c-span: but in your opinion is there a store in your? >> guest: i think so. brian, i could've written a whole book on at least seven of the chapters in this 14 chapter book. c-span: give us an idea of which seven. >> guest: the story of the medical students, which in many ways for me was the most absorbing, exciting research and reading for the whole book, what those young people went through, how much they learned about medicine that they could've never learned here, how far behind medicine in the united states was, and why it was far behind. and the marathon, the gauntlet,

intellectual student got let that they had to run in order to keep pace with the doctors that they were studying with. c-span: give us a second one. >> guest: the cooper moore story surrounding -- james fenimore cooper, samuel f.b. morse, and morse's painting of the gallery of the louvre during the horrific cholera epidemic of -- with the with her and the friendship that resulted as a consequence of. c-span: we have a lot of print history around washburn, but i want to ask about the five republican and how many republics were there in the middle of your seven years that you wrote about, do you remember? >> guest: i don't understand

your question. c-span: there have been five french republics. i wrote down the dates of them because we are in the fifth republic now. >> guest: i think there was too. c-span: one between -- the first one is between 1792-1824. the cycle, the empire. you get lost in the story. you had a second republic was 48-52. you were still there writing about it. the third one was 1870-1940. and what happened in france in the 1800s? what was the overall story of what went on in that country? >> guest: well, you went from a cane, he was a so-called citizens came, louis philippe, who got power by a coup d'état. then he was thrown out by an uprising, and escaped with his wife and their lives, lived out

the rest of his life in europe, in england. he's a very interesting man, in part because he spent a good time here in the united states when he was in exile from france because of the french revolution. he had an aristocratic lineage, although he had fought in the revolution as a soldier for the revolution. but he came to the united states, sailed down the ohio river all the way down the mississippi with his brother. he was young, still in his 20s, he was a guest of washington at mount vernon. he worked for a while as a waiter in a restaurant that's still in business in boston, the union oyster house. so when the americans showed up over there, george kaplan was there with his indians and his paintings in the 1840s, those american indians, native americans were astonished to

hear, he'd been out on the great plains. he had spent time in there with their tribes and could speak some of their language. he really seemed more of a western -- what was then the wild west than all but a very few americans had. so from the point of view of the americans who came to paris, louis philippe was a wonderful king. he was the kind of kinky would take to walk in the gardens in the afternoon. it was sort of a prize i republic with the monarchy, but it didn't last. it lasted about 10 years. then came in another first republic, and then after that came the polling the third, as he called himself, -- napoleon iii, who made himself emperor. and that led to this whole complete rebuilding of paris under napoleon iii. that pairs that we see today is really the paris that napoleon

iii and his chief officer in charge of the reconstruction of paris, george houseman, that's the paris we know today with the grand boulevards, the opening up of avenues, the planting of all the trees, the expansion and so forth was all done by that napoleon iii pick. and then came another revolution, or came the franco prussian war, and then another regime took charge after the defeat of the common art, as they were called, which, in fact, the french civil war when they slaughtered each other in the most a coaches fashion, irrespective, men, women children. just a hideous bloodbath in

paris. and the americans, many of them, were witnesses to this. and sometimes to their detriment and other times just as part of the adventure of that experience in their life. one of the most admirable of all is a young woman named mary putnam who was the first american woman to get a degree in medicine, school of medicine who refuse to leave during the siege of paris and the commune. very dangerous time to be there, very difficult time. people were starving to death. because she was determined she was going to get her degree, and she came back to become one of the leading figures in american medicine. c-span: how many of these americans you wrote about died in paris? >> guest: relatively few. some die there because they decided they would stay. merrie cassatt died in france but you never really came home

to live. but by and large they all went home. george healy lived a very long life and was still painting, still very actively in demand as a portrait painter late in life, but he knew his days were numbered and he wanted to die at home, so he came back and settled in chicago. c-span: we mentioned a couple of the books you could write off of a chapter. could you think of another one? >> guest: i could easily write an entire book about augustus saint-gaudens, easily, happily. c-span: [inaudible] >> guest: she was a cousin of winslow homer, the famous american painter. there was a chapter i wouldn't enjoy writing, but i think the

chapter that is about mary cassatt and john singer sargent, i would enjoy doing as a major book. because you have these contrasting personalities, contrasting american geniuses who are painting in pairs at exactly the same time, living in an entirely different world within the world of paris. paris is like all great cities, has many worlds within the world of paris. and mary cassatt and john singer sargent lived worlds apart, yet they were right practically neighbors in the same city. they both were painting what would prove to be american masterpieces, that with more than stand the test of time and will become more important with on. c-span: one of the people you write about we haven't talked about is benjamin rush's son,

richard rush. where did he come from? >> guest: he was the son of the famous benjamin rush was a physician in philadelphia, and was one of the founding fathers, signers of the declaration of independence, the youngest signer of the declaration of independence. benjamin rush had a distinguished career as a diplomat. and he was assigned to be our minister to paris in a period earlier man elihu washburne was assigned. and rush is very interesting because he decided to recognize "the new republic" of france after the overthrow of louis philippe. when communication between america and france was still a month at best, they had to come by ship, mr. morris hadn't

invented his telegraph yet to come and be decided on his own to recognize the new government of france, not waiting for the government in washington to tell them that's what he should do. a very brave decision, to say the least. and a very important decision, which was enormously welcomed news, and applauded, not just in paris by the new government, but in washington as well. c-span: how do they do indicate in those days when her over in paris, i know things change from \30{l1}s{l0}\'30{l1}s{l0} up to -- >> guest: by letter. c-span: how long did that take? >> guest: a month at best. c-span: was very telegraph near the end of the 1800? >> guest: yesterday led to cable was laid and they could communicate directly. c-span: what did that change? >> guest: it changed everything. instant information. the franco prussian war, for example, people in cincinnati or here in washington were reading

reports from the front two or three days after the report was written. if there was a guy it was getting a message to vendors telegraph center where they could be sent here. c-span: did any of these people by in, get it, coming the ocean? >> guest: me people did die coming across the ocean. and the only one who did of note was margaret fuller, who was a very gifted, young woman, writer, important american writer, an important american person. and she died on a return trip to the ship went down right off, in view of the beaches on long island. c-span: i want to ask you, i never asked you this before, but you have a first sentence in this book, i'm going to read it. they spoke of it then as the

dream of a lifetime, and for many for all the difficulties and setbacks encountered, it was to be one of the best times ever. how long did you think that sentence through? and when did you write it? >> guest: i rewrote much of the first chapter, two or three years after i wrote it the first time. because as has been my experience with all my books, you know much more by the time you get to the end of the book than you did at the beginning. and the first page, or page and a half, of the new book is crucial. you are setting the direction. you're giving the audience the opening theme of your symphony, or whatever it is.

and i wanted to make it clear in the first pages of the book that these people were not going over to paris because it was the fashionable thing to do, or because they were on a diplomatic mission assigned a particular task, or because they were in somebody's employment and they were being sent by the remington arms company or whatever. they were going -- and they weren't going for power or for money. they were going to out of an ambition to excel in their work. in many ways this book is about work. and the joy and the test of one's purpose in life that work can pose.

these medical students who really were put to the test, like very few young men i've ever written about, would later refer to it as the happiest time of their life. and yet it was the most difficult time of their life. and i think there's something very important in that truth, something important we all should -- biddies and pleasure are not necessarily so anonymous. -- e.'s and pleasure. i didn't find one single example of any of those young people, male or female away to study medicine under the most difficult conditions, particularly the language barrier at the beginning, not one of them who quit, said this is not for me, or i can take

this, and went home. there may have been but i never found one who did. and all of them later on we talked about that time in paris. the other thing i love is henry bondage, one of the doctors who went over to study in paris, had a son years later who was leaving to go abroad to study medicine. and he said to the sun, remember, what you learn over their value to your career and your services as doctor isn't just what you learned in medical school. it's what you're going to learn by the culture that is around you in paris. he said, i think i've probably done more good for some of my patients by telling them stories about some of my discoveries and how much i learned in various fields of interest, beyond medicine, that all the pills and

tonics i've poured down their throats, that is the old business, are you treating the disease or are you treating the patient? and still a very crucial concern to the education of medical students today. and among physicians today. this realization that must be essential to the outlook of a doctor, that that person your treating is a human being, and you are not just curing tuberculosis or a trick knee, you're attending a human being. and you have to understand the human condition, and have an appreciation for the human condition as well as understanding this and. c-span: did you read the audio

book tracker i read the first chapter because i did not have time to do the whole book. the schedule i had at that particular juncture of when these things are done, so i read the first chapter. i read a chapter and i was very pleased to be asked to read the first chapter. because that's the chapter that the nation is stated in one who read the rest of it? >> guest: ed herman, who is superb. c-span: this is the last part of your book, other than the acknowledgments. you have a quote, quote, ms. cassatt as you don't do the talking at her mind got a long -- why did you end of the book without? >> guest: because that's what the book is about.

the life spirit, curiosity, that love of, love of the level that sometimes can be reached and art, music, ideas, by some people if they really work at it. the quote that i feel sets the emblem for the book is the quote at the beginning, augustus saint-gaudens. c-span: a thought -- that's charles sumner. i read it earlier at the very beginning. this book is -- >> guest: augustus saint-gaudens was one of these people who rode superbly who never went to school. c-span: for we constantly deal with practical problems with

boulders, contractors, derricks, stoneman, trucks, rubbish, plasterers, and what not else, all the while trying to sort into the blue. >> guest: yes. sculptures are different and painted the painters were in the city and essential what they have is canvas and the palate, an easel and paint and brushes. sculptors is more like a workshop. they get people to make the mold prevent people who bring in the sacks of blaster. as he says, i love the word rubbish in there, there's a joke around. and you all those practical kind of necessities of the trade to deal with. as is true in everybody's work. all the while trying to sort into the blue, to reach that level, that there it is.

that happens in paintings, music, oratory of the gifted, and it happens to the audience when they hear it, when you listen to it. to rise beyond the limitations of mortality and do something that will speak to the human heart with your fellow men and women, but also for generations to come. historians write history. biographers write biography. thank goodness. that's part of it. and by doing that they are participating in history and biography. painters, sculptors are also writing history. you want to the feeling about general sherman, go take a look

at the statue of sherman on horseback at the entrances of central park at 59th and fifth avenue, and look at his face. it's the face of a madman. sherborn is the one that says all war is boot shine in hell. he's looked into the face of hell in his march from atlanta to the seat. -- to the sea. he said it, but saint-gaudens is saying it and form, not words, three-dimensional form in the way that you never forget once you know to look at that face. he's being led by victory. victory is a beautiful, young woman, goddess with wings. the model for the young woman was an african-american, katie anderson.

she's the goddess of victory. she's not, she is not glowing with the joy of triumph. she looks dazed. she looks entranced of some kind to again there's a mystery about it. now, that sculpture was created by a guy who was dealing with cement makers and rubbish and trucks coming. he doesn't mean the kind of trucks we mean, but something you will something in and out. this huge statue working with heavy steel, superstructures inside the statue. taking it off to the bronze foundry to have it cast in bronze, shipping it over to america. shipping it up to the studio in new hampshire where it was all gilded and brought down. he had to deal with all kinds of complicated, difficult, practical problems, and employs

that numbered maybe as big as 15 at a time. all the time trying to sort into the blue. that's the human condition it seems to be. c-span: david mccullough, author of "the greater journey: american in paris." thank you again for your time. we are out of time. >> guest: oh, brian, thank you so much. what a joy. ♪ ♪ >> for a dvd copy of this program call 1-877-622-7726. for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program visit us at q-and-a.org.