three hours. by the way the room must be cleared by 2:00 because of a scheduled hearing. but today's hearing has been concluded and thanks to all for atte attending. you will have five days to submit questions or materials for the record. the hearing stand adjourned. >> up next, today's edition of

washington journal and then a look at unauthorized charges to wireless phone bills. a practice known as cramming. and christophe hitchen joins us later. he joined us shortly before his death. tonight at booktv, hilary clinton's book and then ben shipero is up. and then at 10 p.m., glen greenwall talks about his book. it is more american history programming with a look at sports and history. we will examine the kansas monarchs baseball team and hear from bill russell and jim brown on race and sports. and we will look at a time when walking was a competitive sport. and tonight on c-span we will

have a walking history tour and look at the battle of wars around the united states with chattanooga, south carolina, and southern medicines promoted during the civil war. the civil war tour starts at 8 p.m. >> tonight at 8 p.m. eastern, a history tour looking at the civil war. the communicators visit a technology fair on capital hill. and then pat bucannon is here. tonight at 8 eastern, books on hilary clinton, obama, and snowden. and we tour the literary sites of casper, wyoming.

and the negro leagues kansas city moner city monarchs. and the depiction of slavery in movies as well will be discussed. call us or e-mail and let us know you thing. like us on facebook, follow us on twitter, join in the conversation. >> today's edition of washington journal. we asked viewers to react to the situation in fergsusoferguson, . darren williams has been named the officer of the shooting. >> if you go down a photo by

photographer forbes showing this is the avenue in ferguson and people honking horns and raising signs saying no violence. this event took place after yesterday. if you go to the editorial of the st. louis dispatch they talk about going forward saying hope is coming that the protest can wind down and the process of healing it start. it will cause people to interact in a way that is rare in this area. ferguson has issues to resolve and st. louis county. the lines are divided for republicans and democrats.

we also have the independents line. for missouri residents, weigh in, 202-585-3883. the president took the cameras yesterday to talk about events in iraq and also in ferguson. here are comments from yesterday. >> when something like this happens, the local authorities need to be open about the death and how they are protecting the people in the communities. there is never an excuse for violence against police or those using the tragedy as a cover for vandalism and looting. there is no excuse for police to use excessive force against protesters or throw them in jail for exercising their rights.

and they should not be arresting journalist trying to do their jobs and report to the american people what they see on the ground. we need it hold ourselves to a high standard particularly those of us in positions of authority. >> host: the president from yesterday holding a news conference in martha's vineyard. the state senators weighing in today. mccaskill said we need to demilitary the situation. i respect the law enforcement rights but my people are allowed to have peaceful protest and the police need to respect and protect that. and roy blunt, republican from missouri, weighing in saying i spoke with the attorney general about the continued investigation and i continue to monitor the situation.

a young man lost his life and i support local and federal officials to conduct open, transparency and peril investigations of what happened. michael brown's community and family isn't served by more violence. the best way forward in ferguson missouri for the next 45 minutes. paul, republican from pennsylvania, what is the best way forward? >> caller: good morning. thank you for taking may call. ferguson is just one town across the nation this problem exist. it is ongoing and getting more serious each and every day. i think there has to be a committee of non-politicians put together, an ad hoc committee if you want to call it that, and sit down and figure out what can be done. i thought i was looking at the 82nd air borne when i looked at the police line.

that program got way out of hand. there is so much excess in the military they are just pouring it into the different towns and cities police force. that is not the answer. >> host: you are talking about the pictures we saw of the streets filled with police? >> caller: that was shocking to me and concerns me because it brings on more trouble than it solves. for me personally, if i am looking at that, i am going to get a little rowdy because they just got way out of hand. i think the governor should have been down there a little earlier. but he did get there and his fix on it was the right one. >> host: these photos were from the violent protest. caller from tennessee, dianne,

democrats line. >> caller: i think the governor and it senators took too long to get out there and talk about the situation. this is what has been going on in america. now it is out so everybody can see. it is due to race. we have some good white police, some good black police. but the situation is people should understand that when a person is walking around, minding their own business, all right. you tell them to stop, they stop. but to raise your hands up in the air and stop and they will shoot you anyway? but the number one thing with this situation right here everybody is seeing what is going on in america around the world. iraq, benghazi all over the place -- it was shown. >> host: so the previous caller said a commission to look into what happened as a way to go forward. do you have thoughts on what

should happen? >> caller: everybody should get together and talk about this. republicans and democrats should get together, black and white and hispanic, a commission of people, get down and solve the problem. the problem is it is hatred. number one. we have to stop all of the hating. we are all human beings and american. that is the number one problem. >> host: that is dian e from tennessee. lester from detroit michigan is up next. >> caller: this problem has been going on too long. america has had its head in the sand about this problem. race has been a factor since the beginning of america. the problems we have in america can't be solved unless we

recognize there was a problem. there was an eye opening picture of the snipers aiming at the crowd. i thought i was seeing a news story in iraq or afghanistan. this couldn't be america where we are supposed to show the world we are living free and clear and america is free from democracy. we need to start talking about -- >> host: who takes the lead in talking about the issues? >> caller: our leaders. we elect our leaders to lead us. and that has been missing in action in washington. they have been missing in action in washington, d.c. how can you solve anything if you are not discussing anything? they have been alienated from the president and any discussion.

you cannot solve the problem unless you come to the table and it seems like america is afraid to come to the table. >> caller: the president spoke about this yesterday. should he say more? >> caller: i believe so. and it is all of the legislatures responsibility. even on a local problem. this was a local problem. the situation will not get better unless we talk about it on a local level. >> host: lila from the democrats line go ahead. >> caller: thank you for take talking my call. this is a national problem and we need national law. we have localized police departments throughout the united states and they do violate the rights of african-americans. it has been going on since the

time of slavery. it is time it stops. we need national laws from the congress so the justice department -- the united states justice department has national laws on which all police jurisdictions can be held accountable and when they violate the rights of citizen and kill them when they are unarmed they should be subjected to criminal and civic penalties and that includes prison. this has to stop. i hope eric holder, president obama and the legislature will do something about it. this has to stop. they have to stop killing our boys and our men. and then they complain we have no husbands and fathers and our population don't grow because they kill these young boys before they get a chance to reproduce and live their lives.

>> host: there is a line for mose in missouri to give their thoughts as well. and we have the republicans and democrat and independents lines open as well. senator rand paul of kentucky had an opt-ed in "team" saying we must demilitarize the police. given the developments it is almost impossible to not feel like the government is targeting them giving the racial disparties and system it is impossible for the african-american to not feel like the government is targeting them. this is part of events outside of st. louis, missouri and what citizens of ferguson feel when there is a shooting like this one. anyone who thinks race isn't skewing criminal justice isn't

paying enough attention. our prisons are full of black and brown men serving inappropriately long sentences for things from their youth. the best way forward in ferguson, missouri is the question for this morning. beverly from chicago, illinois, democrats line is up next. >> caller: i wish you would go in your archives a couple months ago. when the militias have guns strapped to their shoulders, pointing guns toward the police officials and telling the police officials if they come closer they would shoot them, did you see any police on top of trucks and cars like they were on wednesday? no the police stepped back. so there is racism in the

country. these people were standing with their arms up. this man grazing on the grass and these guys come out with guns. go in the archives. you usually pull up stuff. show the difference between bundy and what they did out here. >> host: with that in mind, what is the best way forward? >> caller: rights got the right, we got the rights. we are all god's kids. stop making the difference and telling us nothing is wrong because there is a black president in the whitehouse. he is sitting there but you will not let him be president. the man can't come out and speak on stuff like this. i noticed where you were going -- who should speak out? the president and every elected official should speak out. the people in missouri should have came out before the president. >> host: tyrone from peach city,

george. good morning. republican line. >> caller: i think the way forward is to weed out the race baiters who come in and exploit these situations. it is a tremendous tragedy this young boy lost his life. but we are in america and have to let the justice system work. people rush to judgment. i don't see the correlation between the tragedy and people coming in stealing rims and tires and burning businesses. it is absolutely ridiculous. and it is very indigant. it is time to sit down and discuss these problems. let's talk about the black-on-black crime in chicago. let's go to those areas. >> host: david, johns island,

south carolina, republican line. >> caller: they need to shut up and let the investigation go on. get their facts. and about the gear they were using -- most of that is supposed to be intimidation factor to get the people in the crowd that are not nuts to think about what they are doing and leave. the fact president obama comes out and all of this stuff -- you remember, the republicans were the enemies and they need to be stopped. >> host: the financial times picked up a bit on the investigation of the shooting itself saying rage erupts in the

united states but the police not to release the name of the officer is causing mistrust. it was said quote if they don't press charges there is going to be a war in st. louis. federal authorities have launched investigations into the shooting but the history of racial strain in st. louis goes back a generation. ferguson is a suburban town with a few black people in 1970 and now they comprise 70% of the population. wane from washington. >> caller: we need to start loving the country more. we are all-americans here. we worry about our children more

than anything else. if you can turn that mirror around and see it isn't about a color when you fire a bullet. it is about how a father or mother feels when you kill a child. we are in a melting pot. we are all about to let money control this country a little bit too much so that means morals are being changed. it seems like why did we even go through, you know, why did we go through wars if we are going to bring the wars here to this country? >> host: so what is one solid way to change the situation and start turning the things around in missouri and nationwide? what is one solid way in your opinion? >> caller: i see the only solid way is jobs. i mean it is the only thing most of these people going through this stuff -- they are not working. the majority are in an uproar

about a lot. but when you lose a child, are not working, people are bitter. a lot of people are bitter. this president, i am a republican, and this president i don't know want to say i am racist on this because he is not doing his job. he is not for everyone and that is the problem. he is not opening his mind for clarification for the whole country. he is opening his mind for businesses and that can not be. >> host: independent caller from pennsylvania. >> caller: that is the problem right here. the last caller talking about the president isn't for everybody. where does he get this stuff? when you have divisiveness on radio and tv constantly on fox news and msnbc they are divisive you are going to have a divided

country. it isn't just divided because of the president. it has always been divided. we have been looked upon as second-class citizens and people are tired. they looted one day. they needed to do more than that. what are you going to do when people start shooting back and killing the police? then we will be crazy black people. we need to get together. we did get together. i don't know what needs to happen. the elephant in the room is racism and someone needs to speak on it. >> host: who is the someone? >> caller: regular people. you cannot get the politicians because they are scared they'll not let reelected. it is hard to say. i speak out about it and then you have someone in middle america is what they call it and they are talking about white people. get one of the middle americans

and a regular guy that is in a segregated northeastern town it is hard to say. you cannot get someone to speak out. al sharpton is a race baiter they say. you killed our leaders. malcolm-x, martin luther king. you killed them or put them in prison prison. it is hard to say. >> host: there is a story in the "washington post" showing pictures you have seen about the military-style gear of helmets and flares and knifes and weapons there. there is a federal program that arms or gives the localities some of this equipment. it is written in the pages of the "washington post."

here is a little about the program. one program is a source of military resources deployed by police department is the defense department excess property program or the 1033 program that gives equipment to law enforcement agencies, transfers to the programs have increased in recent years. in 2006, it made 34708 transfers. and last year it grew to 51, 797 transfers valued at 420 million dollars. through april of this year the agency made 15,000 transfers and that is worth 206 million dollars. a press briefing yesterday and some of the conver dealt with this program. here is the comments: >> there is a law enforcement

support program that the defense department of minister provides to law enforcement agencies surplus military equipment: gears, arms, ammunition, and vehicles. this allowed for the reuse of military equipment that would be disposed of that can be used by law enforcement agencies to serve their citizens. so the program serves a purpose. that said it is up to law enforcement agencies to speak to how and what they gain through this system. i am not going to inject the pentagon into this discussion. how the equipment is used to serve local citizens is up for local law enforcement agencies to speak to >> host: if you want to see the full briefing or the comments

from the president go to our website and watch that on the video library. mike from north carolina we are talking about the best way forward in ferguson, missouri. mike is on the republican line. what were you thoughts? >> caller: good morning, pedro. >> host: good morning. >> caller: i am not sure what the best way forward is but it will probably have to be driven at the community level. i don't think washington or the justice department -- unless there is agregious civil rights violations which we are not sure what happened here. ... here. what i see happening here is a confluence of factors. i am a child of the 60's. i watched the race riots in the vietnam protest. are, almost 50 years later, after trillions of dollars were spent on the war on poverty, and to deal with their blighted urban cities and to try

to help the people of color. what are we? i am looking at the pictures and people are saying they are saying iraq or afghanistan. i am seeing detroit, cleveland, toledo. it is the same thing all over again. there's racial strife, yes. as a libertarian leaning conservative, i am upset like rand paul is, with dispensation of military gear to the local police forces. these local police forces -- they had weapons, automatic weapons, machine guns, trained on the people. i am not a fan of that. thehey want to deploy weaponry and keep them in reserve, that is one thing. let's also keep in but let's also keep in mind what instigated this. once again, just like kent state state, the race riots in the 1960s, we had an immediate

reaction, and emotional reaction to the tragic events of the killing of a young man by a white police officer, a young black man and the immediate reaction was property damage on the looting and construction. i watched kent state burned for three days and on the fourth day with a 30 day those poor kids got shot. that didn't happen in a vacuum. it was a reaction to property damage. so going forward, i'm not sure. i hope we can do better. >> host: to hear from susan in ohio. democrats whine on the good morning. >> caller: [inaudible] >> host: go ahead, please. [inaudible] >> host: let's put her on hold and go to tim in maine. >> caller: thank you. how are you this morning? >> host: fine, go ahead. >> caller: in 2008 we elected the first black president of the united states and the republican party said they were not going

to work for him. what happened out there in missouri is a reflection of the republican party and i plan on going to n-november in the polls and i'm going to vote against every republican on the ticket all the way up to the senator. that's what i'm going to do about it. >> host: republican line. >> caller: i'm definitely opposed to the militarization along with a lot of the other colors. i think where a lot of the other colors are making the largest mistake in evaluating is they are calling it racism. when it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with culture the color of your skin doesn't make you steal and destroy other people's property because you are upset. that is a cultural thing that is taught from a very young age

let's stop the baloney about it being racism when it is culture. >> host: you mentioned the police and the equipment they use. did they notice any of that even though they are in big sandy texas? >> caller: i don't know whether that was in the background to come out with it or not. but that is definitely wrong. they've been going into people's yards because they are barking at them and that has got to stop. an automatic weapon. peaceful protest is one thing. you've absolutely got a right to that and i will be right there on the line with yo you into peaceful protest but the minute you start breaking windows and burning and east riding peoples property, that is wrong and it

doesn't take a black man or white men are hispanic or anything else. it has nothing to do with lights and everything to do with culture. >> host: "the wall street journal" has on its front page the picture of the iraqi minister announcing that he is going to resign. here is a story from that saying that mr. maliki's came after other members of the political movement. movement. a religious figurthe religious e iran, quote, i will not be the reason for the shedding of a drop of blood for the minister in the late news conference surrounded by members of the political coalition. the move marks a surprising reversal from the leader who only a day earlier had to relax his grip on power to the high court had ruled on his complaint. so that's from "the wall street journal" this morning. if you are just joining we are taking a look at ferguson misery and asking your thoughts on the best way forward from the change

in who is overseeing the call control and looking over the protest. that announced yesterday by the governor. your chance to weigh in this morning (202)585-3881 for republicans. (202)585-3880 for republicans. (202)585-3882 for independence. for the missouri residents, (202)585-3883. fort lauderdale florida is next on the democrats line. this john. go ahead. >> caller: yes i just want to say that it's sad when a lot of conservatives call in and the first thing out of their mouth is looting. some kids on the first night beside the having opportunity to do a little looting. the first night. there wasn't any more of that. but every night after that it was just saying we want to hear what the police had to say. what is his side of the story?

why hasn't he released that information? and it doesn't take eight years to tell a truth. the fact that they are not letting that information out it shows you that they are trying to get a story together that makes sense. and that is why it is delayed. he is a public servant. he had a report that night. about the murder that took place they are not going to do that because they know that it looks bad. it's bad that you killed a young man 35 feet away and now you try to cover it up. the police last night didn't have all of these ideas and republicans come democrats, it doesn't make a difference. to have those military uniforms and standing up there with guns and stuff like that we should all be outraged by that and so my last point is this.

we should come against us about the protesters having live ammunition just for saying we want our information. that is totally wrong and no matter who you are we should all be against that. and let's figure the issue of why this young man was murdered for no reason. other type of similar demonstrations taking place across the country in new york among some others. here is a buyer in georgia.

>> caller: i just want to make a quick comment about how we need to look at this issue and i think that it's got to come from inside. we've got to really look at what is the cause of this. and to me, this is just something that has been pervasive -- ever since trade on martin, until we can see it that way and look at it and have some compassion and understanding about how we would feel if that were our child, then i don't know how we can go about if we can't get to that point. >> host: from arizona here is bob on the republican line.

alex wagner referred to all of this happening in st. louis. st. louis is independent from st. louis county. it's not in the st. louis county. the city is a separate political entity. that's why in the county you have one of these municipal areas where hazelwood -- and by the way i am from missouri and i transfer with douglas to mesa arizona at the helicopter company. in the st. louis, i was an officer in the national guard and we were artillery changed to the military police after the riots that happened in missouri but not in st. louis or st. louis county. we would have been poorly trained for any kind of riot control.

and it seems to me like the ferguson police and most police department are not trained properly to take the actions that should be taken and what's happening now is great. the e-mail is rising. in arizona we have the biggest share in the west who has an actual army tank from a high-powered gun and i don't think that he would hesitate to point it towards the border of mexico if he had the chance. we've got to stop giving these types of weapons to the police departments who are utterly trained. >> host: let me turn that around. if they were properly trained what you have issues with them holding this type of equipment? >> caller: yes on the street at that time. we were never in st. louis called to the street with any kind of weapons until and unless there would have been an action that required it. having certain weapons -- of course they all have that but do

they need an army tank clicks i have a question about that. now he will tell you i just whole around for advertisement. but i'm saying the problem that i saw yesterday is they sit in st. louis that is st. louis county completely different political entity. like i said, st. louis is not in a county. it is an independent city. >> host: appreciate your call this morning. a photograph in the "washington post." this took place at arlington national cemetery. it was the service for the major general harold greene the two star general shot in afghanist afghanistan. you probably remember hearing about those ceremonies taking place. a picture in the "washington post," the c-span cameras capturing the event itself. it says he was the deputy commanding general of combined security transition command afghanistan, and he was killed august 5 at an afghan military academy near kabul by a man that was believed to be an afghan

soldier and an inside attack sent shockwaves to the military and they wounded 15 million other personnel including eight americans before he was killed by afghan security forces. and that ceremony taking place at arlington. go to the website c-span.org if you want to see that. back to the question this morning for the first remaining minutes on ferguson missouri. we are asking your thoughts on the best way forward in light of the investigation as well. 202 for independence and 202-58-5388. we hear from a resident in kansas city this is kerry on the democrats line. >> caller: i wanted to first bring up the hearing. first my heart is broken over

michael brown and my heart goes out to his families and my prayers. but here in kansas city in june we had a latino man named anthony who was on house arrest for theft. the police went over force and they shot his face and put him in critical condition, throw him on the ground, cuffed him with his face bleeding out on his pregnant girlfriend is standing there, the whole family. he is a peaceful nonviolent person and they chased him out just because he ran out the back door of a house. i don't think that he passed away but i mean it was insane what they did over theft. and this guy in new york selling single cigarettes and they gave him the death penalty. michael brown, this is just so out of hand and the way we have to go forward here is the police have to just back off.

you could just smoked marijuana and the police would've totally leave you alone. they are going way overboard over picky nonsense and they are way too aggressive. we've got to get the police to just back off the citizenry and let us have the freedom. we are supposed to be the land of the free. and our freedoms are just so restricted. they pull you over just the most picky things and it's just easy save what they are doing. they are militarized and they've got to cut this off. >> host: austin texas democrats line. >> caller: good morning. i have two comments. and first, going forward

[inaudible] >> host: you're going to have to speak up we can't hear you. >> caller: can you hear me now? >> host: go ahead please. >> caller: we need to rethink the housing in the school orange mint. since the 1950s they've become cities to the suburbs and from public to private schools that is at the root of most of these problems. i've lived in several cities in the south. when one family moved in, all for sale signs went up immediately and the white people fled to the suburbs of abandoning the cities and now they are complaining about what happens in the cities. they abandoned the public schools so their kids would go to public schools with whites only and that has led i led to a lot of problems. the second thing going forward, we need to rethink the fairness doctrine because the public airwaves belong to the public.

and yet they are dominated by hatred from the right-wing tv and radio broadcasts 24/seven. they say get the government out of the local affairs. let us run our own affairs and yet they blame obama for something happening in a small town in missouri. >> host: taking a look at the makeup of the police force is when it comes to race and some of the findings they do at the data from the census department focensus departmentfor the publd pressure that made any qualities of visible in chicago pumping dramatic change it hasn't it debate with extended to place the ferguson. the suburb of 21,000 with 53 commissioned police officers. it's hard for the government to bring a lawsuit against the police force of 100 people. there are a number of places whether it is all white or know what the police forces many are

in smaller cities such as niagara falls where 20% of the population is black all 250 police officers are white according to the data. a quarter of the population is black but none of the 25 police officers. we hear next from bill from baton rouge louisiana republican line. >> caller: all of these riots are planned. the first thing they do is they send in the black panthers to get the riots started. then they send people like al sharpton and jesse jackson and then the media is engaged and it's all planned just like it was in florida. and you think that trayvon

martin's father was just a plain old citizen you are wrong. she was a high person in a secret organization but you never hear the media say anything like that. >> host: one more call from st. louis missouri on the democrats line. >> caller: there is so much misinformation out there it's amazing. the day that all this happened a lot of people were upset, sure, of course. but then there were a lot of people that were burning the buildings that have nothing to do with the protest and 90% of them that were arrested outside of the community. the guy in arizona had it right. in st. louis county it is totally different. then in between that, you have a lot of small municipalities with

ill trained police officers which i think -- i used to be a reserve police officer it is ill trained and a lot of them couldn't make it on the county police force because they couldn't pass the test. then you have over policing and community where they don't live. we need the community policing because that makes everybody accountable. that's one of the ways forward. that's what we need to get away from its outside people generalizing what they think is going on in the media that isn't really here speculating what's going on. i am here. they've demonstrated and last night was the first time that they were letting people should frustration and react in an organized and civilized way is the way forward. we had no president, no problem because guess what, an african-american would calm the situation down along with the

attorney general. 70% black area you have almost 100% white political structure from the police chief to the city council to the mayor. there are just so many people that are not equipped for the job for the position. >> host: that is the last call that we will take on the subject.

in a remarkable scene that union troops will penetrate the confederate hall and press the ridgridge at multiple points alt simultaneously and to send the confederate army trading off of the missionary to the east and back down into georgia. with that success on november 25 and a brief pursuit on the 26th and 27th chattanooga is now firmly in the union hands and it will be turned by the union army over that coming winter into a giant supply base similar to the forward operating bases today and it is from chattanooga that following spring would take a combined union army group and advance south from chattanooga

towards atlanta and into the military-industrial heartland to disrupt and destroy much of it and bring the war to a close in the spring of 1865. observers and participants i feel at the time believed that the unit accessed in chattanooga was a signal of ultimate union success. some have said that this was the death of the confederacy. >> more from the washington journal with a discussion on the obama administration and events from the news. since we went live this morning officials and ferguson missouri named aaron wilson as the officer involved if the teenager michael brown. this segment is 45 minutes. >> the first guest of the morning is terry jeffrey and the editor in chief of cnn news.com.

for those who don't know what cns news is what is it? >> guest: we are part of the media research center and we try to present news especially that they not be covered by bs that bush made media. >> host: we've been asking folks at ferguson missouri and the best way forward. if you had to answer the same question how would you do so? >> guest: maybe he should have done it earlier. and, you know, ideally that the president actually said some things with the president. there is no doubt the police are very tough and dangerous jobs and they expect people to reserve your doing and people need to respect the rule of law. but you have an unarmed 18-year-old boy who is a shot

and killed by a police officer and i think that the people in missouri and the people in the united states deserve a fair and thorough and transparent investigation of how he died. and i can understand where some people in the community might have some anxiety and frustration about whether such an investigation but have taken place. also, i think that what you saw in the video yesterday of the police shooting tear gas at a television camera crew and arresting a "washington post" reporter in mcdonald's, that's not appropriate behavior for the police. the job of the police is to maintain order so that we can enjoy freedom in a civil society. and i think the job of the press is to be an adversary in this abuse of the government power. though here in washington where we had this massive federal government but also in the local communities. and so i agree with the president there is no -- the police cannot bully reporters.

a heady right to do their job and like i said that people in the country have a right to have a fair and thorough and transparent investigation into what happened. and the policemen also deserves fairness and his constitutional rights to be protected. >> many people made an issue of the type of equipment we saw over the last few days coming directly from the defense department as far as the grants are concerned. what do you think that the program overall and is this proper and an issue of training on this equipment? >> guest: i think it is an issue. i can see where if you have a riot you may want to send in the national guard or something to protect the lives and property. but i do belief that the local police should be the local police. you don't want the communities, we don't want people racially polarizing the country. we are one people, the one nation under god. so, i do think that, if there is a good situation there i think the governor did the right thing but no i don't think the police ought to be militarized.

>> host: ultimately wha what dos this do about the conversation of race? >> guest: one of your callers in the last hour was pointing out. we had the declaration of independence said all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. some of them had other but with a direct violation of the founding principle that all men are endowed by their creator. we had slavery all the way up until the 13th amendment eradicated after the horrible civil war. for 100 years after the civil war we had the segregation and jim crow and the american south is a violation of the 14th amendment. but, you know, i more than anything else i agree with what martin luther king said when he was leaving the civil rights movement and he was unjustly thrown in jail in birmingham by the police force and had a spanish letter from jail in a

letter from the birmingham jail he quoted to catholic saints he said you have a duty to evade the adjustable. they said it comports with the wall and one that doesn't. the walls that are racially discriminatory are unjust because they violate god's law but what i believe is that in our society we need to get away from looking at people like martin luther king judge them by the content of their character and not the color of their skin and i believe part of the way of doing that is going back to restore the traditional values and our belief in god and religious faith and our sense of family and sense of community. it is a moral and cultural issue above all others and the answer is in the founding of the united states. >> host: to have a conversation about this and other issues if you want to ask questionquestions to a 25853881r

republicans. (202)585-3880 for republicans in (202)585-3882 for independence. you can share your thoughts at c-span wj and put your thoughts on facebook as well they spoke.com/c-span or e-mail journal@c-span.org. the most recent: has the headline america's question that deals with money. what is the topic of? >> guest: the budget office put out a long-term budget analysis. they raise the question of when the debt that we were building every day could precipitate a fiscal crisis in the united states they say that it's good to be 6.4% of gdp. that means we will have a debt growing faster than the economy is going to grow and it is going to be more than 100%. the publicly traded debt is good to be mormaybe more than 100% o.

another piece was just published yesterday that looked at the total government spending in the united states census bureau for the online tools that have historical state and local finances. and i calculated the total spending in the united states using that database. the government in 2011 the latest year on record sent $6.115 trillion. .. senses, that works out to about -- per household. the government spend more per household than the median household income. it's the more per full-time worker in 2011 than the average worker made. we cannot have a government that is spending more money than the typical household worker. host: are there efforts they

made by republicans to reverse those trends? guest: if you look at the cbo report, what is going to be the debt in the future? social security and the major government health programs, medicare, medicaid, children's health insurance programs, and the new obamace if you take those, those things, social security and health programs and add in net interest payments on the debt, that will equal 19% of gdp right there by 2039. so, once upon a time paul ryan and john sununu had a plan for reforming social security so people can invest payroll taxes in private saves account. paul bush -- george bush wouldn't go ahead with paul ryan plan. they're not talking about reforming medicaid. they're growing medicaid with obamacare and creating new class of subsidies, that the tax

credits people get for buying health insurance. i do not see republicans doing anything about this. >> host: showed a budget deficit 20% below 2014 figures. what do you do with that figure? >> guest: president obama says i cut the deficit in half. if you look, the deficit is the amount that the government spend excess of revenue in given year. when you have th re deficit you have to go out to get debt. when president obama was elected in november 2008, took office january 20, 2009, he voted for the tarp, troubled asset relief program signed by president bush. obama voted for it. $700 billion of that plan. first month in office, american recovery act, his stimulus. $803 billion for that plan. the deficit for that year was something like $1.6 trillion. no deficit like that on that scale since world war ii.

when you have a deficit like that it is not hard to cut it down. tell you, through july this year the federal government inflation adjusted dollars collected more in tax revenue than any year in the history of the united states through july yet we still have a $460 billion deficit through july. we got two months more to go. predicting about $600 billion deficit. that is bigger than any a defict that presidents ran from world war ii through the obama's election. >> host: first call. baltimore, maryland, for terry jeffrey on the republican line. go ahead, please. >> caller: yes, sir. my actual comments were for the ferguson issue, not necessarily domestic financial issue with president obama. but just on the last few points on the ferguson issue, three things that can move us forward onn that, one the police unions need to stop coming out day after this happens and police didn't do anything. there need to be federal investigations on every police involved

shooting. that is an issue. that will solve a lot of issues. federal investigation, not just a local investigation. a local investigations happened. police department should investigate their own officers butin fbi and federal government should got involved immediately when any police-involved shooting happens. that will change the culture of the police department. >> host: thank you. terry jeffrey, what do you think? >> guest: i don't know i like to see a federalization of that. we don't want to assume police departments are bad because they're not. they're good. there are good people working in the police all across the country. there needs to be independent, transparent investigation what happened in the death of michael brown. people need to trust it. here we are going to have the justice department go in, find, i think that governor nixon down there might have wanted to step up a little bit early. that's why you have a state government and, i do not like to see the centralization of things from the federal government. ini civil rights issues sometis it is unavoidable however.

>> host: let's hear from david, from king george, virginia. go ahead. >> caller: good morning. can you hear me? >> host: go ahead. >> caller: good morning. a the reason a lot of people are upset about the ferguson issue. a young black man getting shot in the middle street takes days for anything to happen. if young white guy, shot buy a black cop in white neighborhood it, would have been resolved that day. on top of that, when the protests started you put tanks in, fire on people with, with stun guns and all this other stuff, you know. but bundy, cost us millions of dollars was going to get arrested, his militia turned weapons at atf officers. what happened to him? he gets tv inner view. people feel it is unfair and not right going on the thank you very much. you have a nice day. >> host: relating to the cliven bundy issue.

>> guest: there is a lot of mistaken reporting about what the cliven bundy thing was b i think he was held up to represent something he didn't actually represent. but, i don't think there is a now.rison there >> host: terry jeffrey there was story recently in the "new york times" talking about the topic of immigration. here is the headline. we'll get your thoughts. on immigration gop starts to embrace tea party as far as philosophy. do you seete that happening yourself? guest guest no.t: similar to the debt issue. we've had a problem will legal immigration is the question. not controlling the border and not enforcing immigration laws inside of the country. on this program before i mentioned that the social security administration irs had w-2 forms where social security number and name don't match. not just a few. they get many millions. year 7 million didn't match w-2s. gao studied this.

one employer filed 137,000 bad w-2s over three-year period. habitually. an american business, obviously a very large business with massive payroll, built a business plan around exploiting illegal, cheap labor for lower wages than it can to americans. neitherha republicans or democrs or congress or administration, this one or previous one for years carried anything about it. this is endemic problem. social security has a hoed map that shows every major employer of illegal aliens in the country. they don't want to do anything about it. e they claim it would be violation of section 601, the privacy protection in internal revenue code to tell the department of homeland security that s there s this company over here that has 30,000 bad w-2s. i think we have a federal government where both parties are not interested in enforcing immigration laws. there are alls kinds of problem. what are the consequences of this? is horrible violence on the mexico border. juarez is one of the most

violent cities in the world, which is across the border from texas. why is that so? because you have drug cartels that aregh operating on the souh side of the border because they know they can get drugs across the north side ofe the border. so one of the consequences of our government is unwillingness to secure our border is violence in mexico. no, i don't believe the republicans are serious about doing anything about immigration >> host: if that is the case and president as reported will take action, what isom the reaction? >> guest: constitution says the job o f president faithfully to execute the laws. he takes an oath to uphold the constitution. obey thedent needs to law and enforce the law. if the president wants to enforce the law he should secure the border. if he wants to do something, president obama and john boehner really ought to do something, they ought to pass a simple law says it is not a violation of privacy of anybody for the irs

or social security administration to name for the department of homeland security those employers who are hiring massive numbers of illegal aliens. they ought to do something about securing the border. but president obama can not in any area, immigration or any other exceed his legal and constitutional authority to do something on his own. >> host: terry jeffrey with creatorshe syndicate and also wh cns news.com. he their editor-in-chief. the, how often do you post there? >> guest: all day long. all the time. >> host: homer in shreveport, louisiana. how are you this morning? >> caller: fine. >> host: go ahead. >> caller: i'm a vietnam veteran when i paid into the system i wasn't paying for no war. i never understood that. >> host: go to mick from indiana. independent line. hi. >> caller: hello. this is nick. i was calling, listened quite a

bit to different reasons why politicians, they want to cut benefits for taxpayers and people that need help. mostly for the middle class. and, i would like to know why in the world does representative a needwo nearly 100% of their pay when they retire as a benefit? plus insurance. i would like to see all elected politicians retire, if they want to, stay in, if they're elected but no pensions whatsoever and this would decrease our deficit. thank you. >> guest: not sure exactly what the pension deal is. congress gets now, i think they ought to be on the same system are in the e private sector. if they wan to invest their own money in s 401(k) or something like that, that is fine with me. i don't think they should have -- i think the whole question, by the way, of public

sector pensions is major fiscal problem for states and communities all around the country. and i think it is, when you look at the employment income statistics, i mentioned that the, if you take that 6.15 trillion, that government all across the country spent in fiscal 2011 and divide it by number of full-time year-round workers, ends up being $60,000 per full-time worker and, meanr earnings of a full-time worker was 57,000 that year, when you calculate was 101 million more or less full-tim'e year-round workers, 16.6% of those workers work full-time for government. take out the government workers on taxpayer payroll, you have something like 86, that year i think 84 million full-time private sector workers who are the core force that are carrying all this, including these very pensions for public servants, who ought to live just like private citizens i believe.

>> host: from detroit, michigan, kevin for terry jeffrey. independent line. hi. >> caller: good morning. i wanted to make a comment, concerning the police and how they are in fact regular men and women like us all. they get up in the morning and they go to do their duties at work. when they g get off work they're off-duty and they're home with their families. and when in their home with their families or with their families i guess they could say in we the people zone and when they're on duty, they are subject to oath of ethics that they signed, correct? >> host: what is the question for our guest? >> caller: okay, when that oath of ethics is violated, for example a case investigated and it is found out something was done unjustly, is that a federal

offense? >> host: i don't think so. there are federal civil rights laws that, you know, police are subject to the same laws that anybody else is. if they commit a state offense it's a state offense. if they commit a federal offense it is federal offense. i don't know a typical offense by law enforcement officer would be if federalized. >> host: twitter, why is the president ignoring fiscal issues with theo government? why do we have to wait for crisis to fix it? >> guest: that is good question. personally i believe most of the medifa liberal and most of the media favors welfare state and big government. in fact one of the reasons the republicans are really to grapple with the fiscal problem which our country faces which the cbo explained because they fear being targeted negatively by the media for the sorts of things they have to do. politicians like giving benefits to people. they don't like giving them away.

they're is sort of a snowball effect to the welfare state. prior to roosevelt we didn't have one in the united states. federal government wasn't involved in handing out benefits. we got social security with him. with johnson we got medicare and medicaid. george w. bush increased that with the medicare prescription drug plan. we have all food stamps, disabilities, it keeps rolling downhill and getting bigger. no one wants to push it back uphill. >> host: denham springs, louisiana, byron up next. hello. >> caller: thank you, pedro, for taking my call. i'm a 76-year-old ex-pa marine. i didn't fight for our country to see it turned into tianamen square. that is what we looked like up there in missouri. something has got to stop this militarization of our police department. there is right and wrong on both side but it can be handled without all of this, it's scary, very scary.

i thought we had posse comitatus to keep the army off our streets? by the way, on your guest there, do you still work for fox news? >> guest: no. fox news.ver work for >> caller: i appreciate that. >> host: why do you say that? >> guest: i would never work for fox news? i never did say. i have never worked for fox news >> host: gotcha. tommy, oxford, georgia, hi. >> caller: thanks c-span for everything y'all do. i want to, i wanted to comment on the militarization of the police. is a microcosm of what is going on in the middle east where we supply all of the arms to, to these countries and they use the against their people. you know, take, take st. louis.

we're one black kid or one kid is dead and, and, we're out in the streets rioting and, so we're, we're on the streets rioting over one dead kid and you look at the middle east where we've supplied all these arms and all this weaponry and hundreds of thousands are dead. and you can imagine what it is doing to their citizenry and why there are some terrorists now. >> host: jeffrey to his point about the middle east and conversation larger that is going on in government who do we assist and how do we assist them, what are your thoughts on that? particularly want to select hot spots in the middle east of particular interest to you? >> guest: we invaded iraq and over threw saddam hussein.

president bush launched this policy famously articulated in his second inaugural address we would try to end tyranny in the world and promote democracy everywhere and it didn't work. i do believe the united states has a moral moral responsibility to tryev to help, not just help re-establish stability in iraq to protect relidge just minorities there who are being persecuted, murdered, driven out of the country. i do not, i do not believe the president has constitutional authority to do that unilaterally. i think anybody whos looks what the framers actually meant whether they wrote the war power which is article in section 8 of the constitution, look at james madison's notes much. in massachusetts where the author of that power. congress will have the power to make war. strike out make and insert declare, leaving to the executive the power to repel sudden attacks. madisoden himself explained it n notes he took at convention. president obama or any other

president can not unilaterally take action in iraq or anywhere else without congressional authorization. that being said, given urgency of situation in iraq i think it would be appropriate to ask congress to come back. john boehner said he supported actions. congress should have come back and voted. they should have resolved to give the president limited authority to do certain things ine iraq that would protect people there. if in the future there need to be other things done, congress could expand the mandate. but, overall i think america needs to step back and look at the foreign policy we've been conducting in recent years, in which we especially in the middle east, are intervening in countries essentially with the desire to foment revolution and went in fact did foment revolution, we're, part of the consequence of what we did and what we get is this islamist rising to power. henry hyde, a great man, formerly the chairman of the house foreign relations committee inch january 2006, a

year after bush gave that inauguration speech when condoleeza rice came in to testify in his committee beginning of year, he gave her a speech. he called her the myth of the golden theory, his analysis of the misguidedness of president bush's foreign policy. he said it was like the sourcer's apprentice. what we tried to do is clean things up and we created more messes. henry hyde argued that the united states would not invest, time,ss money everything else in order to occupy these countries long enough for them to develop stable governments. unfortunately henry hyde was right. you have christians in the middle east paying the price. i think we need to protect them. >> host: there is story in "the wall street journal" about yazidis saying their crisis is not ended. president obama talking about the situation yesterday in martha's vineyard. here is little bit what he had to say. >> the. bottom line the situatin on the mountain has greatly improved and americans should be very proud of our efforts because the skill and professionalism of our military and the generosity of our foam,

we broke the -- our people, we broke the isil siege of mount sinjar and helped vulnerable people reach safety and helped saved innocent lives. because of these efforts we do not expect there to be additional operation to evacuate people off the mountain and unlikely we continue to need to do humanitarian airdrops on the mountain. the majority ofit the military personnel who conducted the iraq innt will leave the coming days. >> host: terry jeffrey, what do you think about the strategy? >> guest: i think it is very narrow. i'mut not sure the president understands the true historical gravity what is taking place here. is wheree east began.anity jesus christ was born in bethlehem. lived in nazareth. and lived in jerusalem and crucified and resurrected there. his apostles went from israel and went to egypt. st. paul was converted on the road to damascus. iraq was one of the first christian place notice world.

so you have this area which for 2,000 years we've had christians where now therea is a threat of christianity being eradicated. of all christians being driven out and killed. before this broke in iraq, isis is obviously operating in iraq and syria. one of their rival groups, an actual de facto call died affiliate, al-nusra front in syria, one of the things they went did was captured city of malu almost a in syria. they still speak aramaic, the language of christ. it may have well been converted by st. paul. you have al qaeda moving in and occupying one of the original christian villages in the middle east and you have the existence of christianity threatened in the very place where ite started. and that is happening in our historical epic. it is happening now. so this little question of, how manyw. yazidis are there on mout sinjar in iraq? that is not the question. the question is, how does the

united states help re-establish stability in the middle east so that christians can live there in peace and freedom, so that jews can live there in peace and freedom, so that israel is secure and so that muslim arabs also can live in peace and freed do. that is the question. it is a huge strategic question. we need to grapple with it. >> host: bill from texas on republican line. for our guest terry jeffrey. go ahead. >> caller: "good morning america" and c-span. with in connection with the last four or five minutes seems we've gotten off g topic. i think there should have been curfew and demonstrations should be limited to the day time. however, i think the topic at hand should be the budget question and appreciate your programing.ho >> host: what question would you like to ask about the budget? >> caller: when is the federal government and the state and local governments going to face up to the music?

>> host: terry jeffrey? >> guest: i regret to say, a reasonable prediction would be that the federal government will only deal with the nation's fiscal problem after a crisis hits. that they won't do it before a crisis hits. and, cbo in their report said there were limited options the government would have, in the face of a fiscal crisis. and, one of those would be inflating the currency. and you know, monetizing the debt. so, you know, it is, when you look a the gravity of the fiscal situation in the united states and lack of seriousness on the part of congress and president dealing with, it is stunning. people look back after the fact, you see these kind of things happen in history, someone looks at it rationally, completely predictable. look at the facts. completely predictable. then there is politician, come to grapple with it, people will look back and say, how did they

let that happen? well the facts are there. people realize it is coming and they're letting it happen. >> host: when you taket in sequestration and negotiations on the budget what will that ultimately do to resolve the situation if any? >> guest: they didn't really. talking about a tiny little thing. core benefit programs of medicaid, medicare social security and obamacare are really driving it. the republicans did, because some conservatives in the senate particularly ted cruz and rand paul and mike lee were saying look, we can't do this, they did quote-unquote, they refused to sign obamacare as we know at r beginning of this fisl year. the press accused them of shutting down the government. the fact of the matter the senate refused to pass the bill and president wasn't going to sign one, senate leadership and president and harry reid shut down the government and they caved and funded whole thing. they're not talking about making the slightest change when this fiscal year expires on september 30th. only way, without a

filibuster-proof majority in the senate and majority in the house and president ready to sign legislation the only way house republicans could really do something if they use the power of the purse by putting legislative things into a cr such as end of fiscal year. clear they don't want to do that. it will not happen anytime soon. >> host: you next, louisiana from indiana. hi. >> caller: hi, pedro. i want to ask terry why are we letting all these people come over here in the united states? you guys keep hollering about you can't pay social security. you can't do this, you can't do that. so how are you going to take m when they come over here? that's what i want to know. thank you. >> guest: is she talking about illegal immigrants? >> host: i think so. >> guest: it is an interesting question. someer people would argue that e of the reasons the u.s. economy

has been growing lately, cbo, lack of population growth. and the, americans haven't had as many babies in the last generation as we had in last couple of generations, in the baby boom generation. part of thome fiscal problem all the baby boomers are retiring on social security and medicare and fear younger people working pay for it. some people argue, letting illegal aliens in, letting them pay payroll taxes, those working on bad w-2s they're paying payroll taxes. they're paying payroll taxes and don't qualify for benefits. first of all i don't believe breaking the law to do that. secondly, iffo they give these guys amnesty they're growing to get retroactively get social security and medicare anyway. americans ought to thinkal whate think about children and family. the whole idea of family is going away in america. having a big family, raising kids, people staying married, raising kid, raise them up to be

good, hard-working december people is good for america. and it used to be at the core of our country. that centralod thing, the institution ofca family is going away. doesn't just have cultural consequences. it does s have economic consequences. >> host: lafayette, louisiana, leo up next, independent line. hi. >> caller: hi. i have a question. >> host: go ahead. >> caller: my question is, one of your callers said earlier that we continue to, one of your callers said earlier that we continue to skew off topic. and the topic of discussion should be what it is in america. racism, racism is real in america. the whole world sees it. racism is -- >> host: keep going, you're listening to yourself. ahead.

>> caller: the whole world sees it. >> host: we'll leave his thought there. >> guest: okay. >> host: larger top ire can. previous callers says leadership should take a look at it. national, state, local should take a look at it. >> guest: take a look at? >> host: topic of racism. >> guest: obviously there is racism in the united states of america. because people are flawed you will never totally eliminate racism in a society. racism igos evil. whether you see racist acts by individuals or government they should be condemned. like i said at the beginning of this, i believe, i believe the root of it is ultimately religious and moral. this nation needs to follow god's law. as martin luthered king said, racism violates god's law. and you know i think there is a role for the clergy to step up to talk about this i also think in our schools and in our communities, let's raise kid to

be good. let's raise them to get along with their fellow countrymen. raise them to get along with their fellow countrymen, because we ultimately believe in the same thing. that is one of things going away from america. someit people are rejecting this fundamental idea, that our rights come from god. there is a god. that even the government has to obey god. as we move away from that where is the authority that will be to protect our rights if they say they don't come from god? in a court in virginia, the fourth u.s. circuit court of appeals they declared same-sex marriage a fundamental right. i would argue, a judge did. and, part of the opinion they said that, plaintiffs in that case argued that the right to choose who one wants to marry is fundamental right. they said whoever. the judge who wrote the dissent, take thaudt princepy, then somee can choose to, have incestuous marriage. could have poe little must marriage. where does it end? if you take the original

americanag principle our rights come from god, how can people advocating same-sex marriage, can they seriously argue the right for one man to mary another is got given right? i don't think they can. can they argue the right to kill unbornk child in the womb right up until the moment of birth is god-given right? i don't think they can. modern lib rales who argue it is right toin kill unborn child or two men to marry each other, hire o a woman to gestate the child in the womb and take the child as their own, deprive the right of the child to have mother ih think is god-given rights. they can't argue those are god-given rights. they have to create a new vision of u america. . .in luther king talked about in his letter from birmingham jail. they can't argue that a just law is a law that comports with the law of god. they can't adopt martin luther king's argument. he is right. killing anrgue unborn child in the womb is a

god-given right. who gives you that right? the judge, the state. in the process of trying to declare these things right, they empower the state beyond the sort of authority any state should have. now we have a government that is in forcing profound wrongs as rights. host: mount laurel, new jersey. caller: thank you for taking my call. i want to make a comment regarding what the gentleman is using for solutions for solving the budget problem. the majority of the budget growth has been in defense. and we do not need to be supplying arms to our militarized our police forces and other countries around the world. so i think that's the president needs to open up and realize what the real cause of the deficit is. the second is the god-given rights. if everything was based upon god-given rights, there would be

no death penalty is and there would be nothing along those lines. so i think that you are inconsistent with your thinking regarding that. >> guest: there's there is a tn and an understanding of the law being written that goes way beyond america that a senator for christ who was murdered wrote on the republic of there is only one law and it's not athens or one man or one state at a place to everybody through all of the promulgate her and enforcer. the great conservative scholar i think everyone should read that to really understand what the people in this country believe. he said that cicero is more well read than anyone else.

thomas jefferson the author of the declaration of independence said it was a statement of the american mind but he cited a the cicero as one of the things that inspired it. it must comport to the law of god that existed before christianity existed before christ came to this earth and it was through martin luther king a baptist for the st. thomas and saint augustin roman catholic saints on the same principle so now we have in the united states of america people that reject the principle that is a very profound thing. it's not just rejecting our own tradition. it's rejecting the tradition that goes right back to the pre- christian times and i would argue it is just simply true so we are turning our back on the truth. we turn our back on the national law. we are turning our back on the

truth. >> host: one must call from scranton pennsylvania. >> caller: hello. first thing i want to say is i apologize for backing us up here a little bit but i've been trying to get through for a while so i'm on the other subject of missouri but it kind of blends in with a few of the things you were just saying. every time something happens in this country they examine the bullet and we completely forget about the finger that squeezed the trigger. we can't get to the root of the problem if we claim racism on every single situation that takes place in this country. i'm so tired of hearing what we are focusing on the wrong things is what we are doing. the reality of the situation is in order to move forward with any incident and all of these incidences that have been going on with police departments around the country lately is to move backwards.

we have to look back to the roots. we have police officers walking a beat in the community, stopping sitting on the porch getting to know the community that they police, living in the community that they police and being a part of the community that they police. the law enforcement told me stories about how you get a badge to a young kid and he immediately thinks that he's above the people and of power. >> host: what would you specifically like the guests to address? >> guest: to take away the cover of the police to a certain extent and make them a public servant once again. >> guest: we really don't know what happened.

there needs to be a fair and transparent investigation to find out what really happened. people deserve the truth and that a police officer deserves the truth. >> columnist what are you working on next? >> guest: it's tuesday and i haven't made up my mind yet. >> host: terry jeffrey joining us for the discussion. thank you for your time to. >> we have more programming coming your way on the c-span networks. later today a discussion how the media covers issues. we traveled the country looking for civil war stories. here is a preview of. >> in a remarkable scene late

that day the truth will penetrate the confederate hall in the missionary ridge at multiple points almost simultaneously and send the confederate army tradin treatine missionary ridge to the east and back down into georgia. with that union success on november 25 and a brief pursuit on the 26th and 27th, chattanooga is now in the union hands and it will be turned by the union army over this coming winter into a giant supply base for similar to the operating bases today and it is from chattanooga the following spring that all take a combined union army of the group and advance outward from chattanooga towards atlanta and into that military industrial heartland and disrupt it and the story of much of it and bring the war to a close in

the spring of 1865. observers and participants at the time belief that union success in chattanooga was a signal of the ultimate success in the war and some have said that this is the death now of the confederacy. >> tonight at 8 p.m. eastern eight look at the civil war saturday 6:30 the communicators

now a conversation on the 45th anniversary of woodstock we talked about the concert and the lasting effects of american society. this segment runs for 50 minutes. ♪ years going about in the crowd affair is known as the music festival but to join us to talk about the social implications

for national affairs correspondent with the nation and the national affairs editor for the rolling stone. i don't know what people think of woodstock. but yes it's remembered in the crazy rock concert of woodstock new york that's true. i was too old to be a woodstock head. my wife and i were having babies at that age. so, but spiritually we were with it. and i have a broad i guess a more serious memory of that moment so rounded by lots of other crazy things happening to

the country at this time like the assassination of martin luther king, like the convention in chicago in 1968 where they had a police riot at a beat demonstrators in grant park and in chicago and i could go on and on, but i think woodstock is kind of breaking through all of that and saying we are here. get used to it. we are the kids and our anthem is sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. and that was literally not wrong. but there was kind of a review -- and young people, teenagers come at the lessons always seek a way to review their appearance and authorities and they then settle down, get over it.

i think they were saying that it's more than just a tantrum. this is a statement of different cultural values and it's also in the sense that we don't think much of the political system that others call democracy so those are all big things that were never stated a very directly. >> host: going forward what was the result of woodstock as far as its influence on political and social situations? >> guest: the general understanding is not much. if you look at the political system, george mcgovern got trashed badly in 1972 against mixing. i was a reporter at the "washington post" covering the montgomery campaign and so it was a great sorrow because he was a really new voice and a

strong liberal etc. and as the people know now, that was the beginning of this dissent into the generation of the conservative government. my view is contrary which is cultural messages of woodstock and the surrounding events have up for debate could actually triumph over the last 40 years. not as squarely and concrete as people can see, but i think that the cultural shifts -- take some simple examples. the republicans ran against mcgovern in 72 with a slogan asset abortion and amnesty and he was for loosening the drug law.

well, today there is a very different frame and other sensibilities that will come back with new strengths. that is the effect of politics of the last 30 years and the regular.

it's about changing people's minds and ideas of themselves. we've seen them on the screen screen 585-3880 between 30 to 49, (202)585-3881 if you were over 5areover 50 and (202)585-32 interview attended woodstock and (282)585-3883. it's basically trashed. they have a softer and more

supporting view with supporting other elements. for some including myself it was exhilarating. privacy for the overwhelmingbute overwhelming majority my gosh what are those kids doing. and the pictures coming out of that but there are kids rolling around. believe it or not that was not a common view. and all kind of other behavior and some of it was on the margins. i think the message was liberation that the hippies were very much a part of that and the

others that don't know what they are talking about and make yourself free. >> guest: it wasn't political in the sense that we want to vote for joe or. it was broader and deeper than the political parties and campaigns with low regard for all of that it wasn't about

winning or losing in 1972. it was good on that and one of the things that supports my view is that if you take the course of the party politics since that time, more and more americans have decided that it is a system they have contempt for. they have contempt for the institutions of politics and in washington, d.c. where i reside and you reside that is often part trade the laziness and stupidity of a kind of craven cowardice where people are too innetoenter to engage themselven the politics that matter. and i read it as a rather dark message about the state of the democracy. and i think if you walk around

the country you will find that as a majority opinion. >> host: our guest to talk about woodstock. >> caller: of the baby generation having been born and grown up about americans in urgent is kind of the scene with regards to having affected the people growing up in that time compared to the previous and that leads to the rebellious nature of the woodstock participants and as a follow-up

to that i graduated from class in 1999 and i wanted to go to the woodstock in 1999 and obviously a different experien experience. even still, obviously a very drastic different experience to the original one. and i don't know if you have any comments on that. >> let me give you my not peculiar but my perspective. i was a child in world war ii. i was 6-years-old. this puzzles people. it was a glorious experience and i think that people my age would say something similar because it

was an overwhelming moment for the country not jus just a winng but the solidarity for the country automatically felt impressed by the government to do your share and it was a huge and continuing propaganda campaign really. you could do in you put it in ys bond and it was going to cover the debt that the government was running up to fight the war. he went to the movies on saturday if you brought a crushed tin can and contribute to the scrap drive you got in free. i told those stories just because that spirit lived on for

at least a generation after world war ii and the g.i. bill and all kinds of social programs some of which no longer exist but were part of th for part oft and we are all in this together. and out of the woodstock generation, they could develop similar sensibilities and then sell it to the country. it is a different take on america and patriotism and what the government is or could be but what is now the current politics but those ambitious ideas have shrunk into the sort of cardinals which makes me sad >> host: hello. >> caller: yes i was at woodstock but your take on it is

totally different than those that attended it it was a protest against the vietnam war. how they were treated they couldn't get their jobs back and they were not given good medical care and people looked at them like they were less than local systems. to help the veterans out of their word for vietnam and if you look on the streets today, three fourths that are on the street or on vietnam veterans and nothing is being done for them yet. and that's basically what i have to say.

>> guest: i repeat, i'm being probably to wishful but i think that feeling as you just expressed is still in americans and one of the things they are bitter about and scornful of the government about is that it seems to be bad in politics and you've described some of the reasons there are a good many more. what's not to decide who's to blame republicans or democrats. they are all to blame in some sense. but it is true that we have lost that sense of cohesion. we could all name a lot of events that express that. the argument seems to me to be do you think that is still in this or don't you and i am one of those old heads that the leaves yes americans are

perfectly capable of rallying around those same goals and i've seen this happen in politics and it's although the politicians are unable to say those things for the fear of sounding too much of a sentiment. >> host: new york james up next. >> caller: to set it up my brother the two on the cover of hudson valley and right behind them opting up the hill within the army coat and white cowboy hat is my oldest brother and my second oldest brother was one of the mud is lighter than the movie for woodstock.

i was only 11-years-old when my dad was giving the final be careful down there. i had hidden in one of the utility compartment in my dads truck. i wanted to go to woodstock. i had a bag of candy and i was ready to go. then it got quiet and he said where is jimmy and then the door started opening and closing and sooner or later i was caught and she yelled and said get out of there. hendricks, sans santana and on and on. yes they were protesting the vietnam but i also believe that it was a buildup to jfk to bobby and martin. it built up.

>> that last part is built of up >> yes, absolutely and that was heartbreaking. it felt really glorious or at least promising in 1969 in a couple of years and there were reasons for that and they were largely economic after world war ii that i remember so fondly ran out of gas and politicians made some bad decisions that made things worse. that's true. and then the country as a whole went for ronald reagan and his conservative government which in

some ways is still in the saddle. and what i'm hoping for in politics is an awakening and to share my hopeless optimism if you look at what some people today, talking about the so-called millennial who were born or came to the maturity after the turn-of-the-century or the turn of the first century if they were somewhere between 18 and 30, they had very different views of what they want to go see and it was a lot of conservative and liberal ideas that therefore the government jobs on the other hand they would want the government to let it alone and the folks to decide on other things i find promise in that and this is distant from woodstock.

but springsteen and some other voices are not distinct from what i'm describing. they are quite the contrary. >> host: was at the political system? >> guest: it was building already. already. system?guest co. it was building already. and some of that discussed in the politics is not pretty. it's quite disgusting. i mean, remember, the federal government after african-americans pushed and pushed it for more than a generation finally delegitimized segregation and that's still stuck in people's call some places in america as we witnessed recently i think. i am going to say this is going to make people angry. i for secrecy for barack obama's

president as a reporter i know that is on the stand underneath everything else, there are a lot of americans who resent the idea that there is a black guy in the white house. that sounds harsh, but that's what i think is going on. obama has made his own mistakes which i am perfectly willing to criticize and to criticize. i thought he was about the election of a black president would dissolve in wate a lot of. i think that is not the case. i think the republican party, mitch mcconnell decided we are going to try to stop this guy on everything he does. this may not have been conscious that i think that they were motivated by the knowledge that

a lot of their constituents really don't like the idea of a black guy in the white house. >> host: here to talk about other things woodstock and political and social implications. numbers on the screen divided by age. between 30 and 52025853881550 and over (202)585-3880 and a few have attended woodstock (202)585-3885. >> caller: how are you tonight? woodstock was just wonderful. it was the greatest time i don't think that people realize a lot of people were listening to the music which was the social media of the time. if you listen to the weary of the people that were there you would understand that there was a message and a communication that brought us all together. it's kind of like if you build it they will come.

there was a message and it was a wonderful time and i think it did express the hope that people have that they could change things. being that generation and having gone through watching nixon resigned and feeling that there was a chance for an actual process in the united states and then having him part of what such an abdication of any kind of justice. on top of that, we see virtually what i would see is very little progress in the way of social justice from martin luther king through today. people have just not gotten it. the 1% just the worst kind of realization of everything we feared. the corporatization of the media of everything in the united states is what we fear. the fact that we still do not have available healthcare is what we feared.

what we did do for the society i suppose is to bring to the forefront the ecological movements. we were the ones taught them land on the moon and bring back that incredible picture of the earth. we understood it was one planet and we had to coexist and yet we have been involved in the war and killing people overseas who have done nothing to us. the thing i resent more than anything i do have a sense of disappointment and we have possibilities and they were not allowed to florida -- fleury i hope people realize that these are system at problems. one president cannot solve this. we have to work together as a nation and understand that we are all human beings entitled to our rights and yet so many forces -- >> host: i appreciate it.

>> guest: you have brilliantly summarized that history. i would just again added a stroke that make it a little less stark and this is a bit of unconsciousness is an element that i associate with woodstock and the rebellions of the various kinds of african-american and immigrants and all. that requires people to change their own ideas themselves. that's what consciousness is about. and in that sense i can make a case that the fundamental and the political achievements of the last 30 to 40 plus years are driven by the politics that is

disparaged as you know in washington as well as interesting though women want more power but it's not really the heart of the politics when we do the money stuff. i'm marketing if you look and this is right to the current moment civil rights, race, feminism about women and their role in the society and their personal identity, latinos trying to establish the new immigrants and an honest and respectable status in our society and there are a few other groups,lesbians, gays all of that i could trace back to woodstock. that's probably a little too neat because it did require some brave leaders and some of them

got killed. but i do think -- i'm trying to convey is a very old message. i heard from an auto worker in youngstown ohio. there were some workers trying to get something started. and he's working for gm i guess, black man he said that the people don't understand is that the power is in their hands. we can do something enough room and i thought yes. it's not that simple of course but it almost is that simple. they have the power if they are willing to take the risk of changing themselves and the large and vision for the country and for themselves and so forth

and so on. that's the politics that matters and for me that is the politics that i associate with all of the characters of that woodstock nation. >> host: it's a pleasure talking with you. i read your articles in rolling stone and i read at least one of your books in the past. what i wanted to ask about and i'm going to get in a different track on woodstock with two concerts that followed woodstock later on. one was a california that had a very different scenario than woodstock and another, which i personally feel is even more important was one in newport rhode island, which was a new port jazz festival in the early 70s that was raided by a bunch of long-haired counter cultural swing tzoo ended up breaking upe festival. i tend to see some of this stuff this is kind of a dark side but

i tend to see some of this as being a forerunner of the political correctness particularly in the one of the rhode island but i it was also kind of a dark scenario from woodstock. i don't know why people would have and intolerance towards jazz music to be played. and at the time, the newport festival was also getting attacked by people on the right in the area that didn't want these outdoor festivals in the area anymore. and then they get hammered from people who are more on the anarchists left who wanted some of their music to be played and ended up the story in it for everybody else. >> host: okay. thanks. >> guest: i know that the attacks -- i grew up on jazz myself before rock 'n roll. but it was dark.

there is some ugly stuff within us, too and sometimes if people are not careful it will hit us in the face. >> host: john in new york. >> caller: i have a couple of callers that have stolen my thunder. i'm glad to see bill on c-span. i was at woodstock and i'm actually on the cover of the daily news. they were reflecting the pool of muddy water that woodstock was definitely about the music they had a little backdrop at that point because abby got on stage

and was literally clubbed by the guitarist of the who are bringing up politics with the songs that have political content in the affairs it was a celebration. we put the vietnam war out of our mind from what i read member. but we were definitely antiwar. in the new york area at least the baby boomers. at woodstock there was no security may be because they have the naïveté of the promoters and also the problem at woodstock as they had no sanitary facilities because it was overwhelmed and there was no water facilities.

but woodstock went on without a hitch and there was no sense of the opposing security force. so i heard that governor rockefeller had deployed the regiment of the national guard stationed over the hill and in fact if anything did go wrong, he was going to send them in. i don't know if that is true that i've heard about. >> and it was relatively peaceful? >> guest: >> caller: absolutely peaceful event. but again, it was no presence of the security that would give anybody any gruff. that's right. the spirit was the music and the music was the spirit and it's what other people i think have been saying. you didn't have to give speeches about that agenda. it was shared by the woodstock nation and driven by some of

those events that i've talked about. again they didn't have to interrupt the music. they were in everybody's consciousness. >> host: woodstock fought the establishment much like the occupied that you heard about. it was a review to the authority and an announcement that the country could be different and we know this shocks you and we have a joy to get over your fear and so forth on that level, i think it is genuinely a disappointment of the events that partly by the manipulation of the political voices it

became characterized as these noisy kids who were spoiled and want everything their way messing up the smooth running society. my point is the working class at that time were not really included in that dialogue and neither were older people. and that is a failing that i think was the politicians pick up on and they said these crazies in the mud don't vote anyway so let's play for the people who are reasonable. now as it has developed it became clear in ten or 15 or 20 years after the war in vietnam

that the rock 'n roll is the working class and still is. but it is a shame that because out of the patriotism and other values and all of them could manipulate and exploit and to some extent they are still the there. >> host: john attended woodstock from fairfax virginia. thank you for giving me the opportunity for whom i have a lot of respect as a writer and having read the articles in rolling stone. it's interesting i was at woodstock.

the priest asked the same question who was at woodstock and what do you see as the sociological significance of woodstock. for the good music and fun and a wonderful time but now i do realize we were in a bubble and we thought as we got older and headed for power we would end racism and we would end the unnecessary war and we would solve these problems. and of course in the retrospect of the viewpoint i now see that was hugely optimistic and i just didn't realize there were so many views across the u.s. that would oppose the directions that we all probably 500,000 of us shared. there wasn't some antiwar but it was viewed as a good time for people that shared the common beliefs.

>> guest: where do you think things are today? you know that i'm a bleeding heart optimist and in the room full of many words he would say where is the pony. i'm not quite as optimistic as you and you see things like ferguson and when the iraq war came around we all just jumped in. the last thing that i thought was developed over time just didn't develop. i am not quite as optimistic perhaps as you but i'm not a complete pessimist either.

>> caller: i'm 44 and i feel very strongly that woodstock and that whole era actually marked the beginning of the complete breakdown in our family structure on the morality. woodstock was the weakest and probably the first social experiment far from being a protesting the government. it actually served to create a generation and hedonism and i live in an area where it is a big deal filled with young people but not contributing in any sort of a way to our society and to our government and politics and whatnot and if anything i feel like the baby boomers have been some of the most self serving and

destructive part which is why we are in the situation we are in now. what they thought about in this country is not good. i can't even have a conversation with people of that era that actually are informed and have a fair and balanced opinion about what's going on with our government. so, yes. i feel very different about woodstock. particularly in the baby boomers. i can say accurately it puts me up there. so don't blame me. i think all of us on both sides correctly blame them for a lot

of the weaknesses that exist in the society. this is a left view of things but i think of course the people are to blame whether it is from their stupidity or whatever. but the big events over the last 30 years has been driven by power and i mean corporate power, the big money, the 1%. that is a way of defining it. the nation is a left magazine of long-standing and it has been making some of the very arguments that some people have made this morning, and i'm with them. i guess i'm arguing in a roundabout way where that power can yield to the force of organized people. and that's -- it starts with

individuals cannot with the labor unions were of course even of reform groups and so forth in the environmental organizations. for all of them, but it really starts in your own that's and i get a conversation out of -- kicked out of the conversation this morning because even though the number of the folks don't agree with my analysis, i know they have that spirit in them which is enough for me. >> caller: i would like to say hello to c-span. i was there in august of 1969 and the people at that time were living in the peace. they were not depending on so much of the welfare in the nation to help them out and to

live from day-to-day and abuse the system. well then people are having a good time. it was a big organized group where people had so much fun. there were no problems and no trouble. i think one person died or got hurt by that tractor but in the same token today people try to do the same but because the big culprit of america that we call today they see somewhat of the people to be held in the past but the control of the future, the corporate control of the future and the poor people while they are going to get their help from the government to, you know, live on down the road and they talked about iraq and iran.

after two years i went to vietnam and i was not against vietnam were against the war. but the war is where all of this happened and we would have problems with political and economical problems of the futures on the road. >> guest: i think i'm going to argue with some of what you said because you got back to the corporate power. but corporations were on everything and that is what there is to say. if you look back across the history of the country. it is quite the opposite and african-americans can tell you about that in some detail.

it is the case however that there are these moments that sometimes last for a generation. sometimes more and sometimes less when the people claim their powers and a cert them and they prevail. in one of my books where i was expressing this i compared it to an underground river that flows along pretty much on scene into that river is the people and their aspirations which it is true don't get primetime in the political debate or they get distorted or manipulated. all of those are true, but every once in a while people break through to the surface and the underground river suddenly becomes the new reality.

my view is we are on the brink of such a moment. and trust me i've not felt this way for a long time. in my youth i did the leave that al qaeda 60okay the 60s was goio generate big changes because they had all of the right impulses and i was mistaken. but all the time for the conservative era of ronald reagan, i never bought into the notion of if we win the next election everything will go back to where we wanted it to be. it didn't happen and now i feel differently. i don't say that it's a guaranteed deal but the potential for that underground river to assert itself is here right now.

>> caller: last night my wife and i went and saw santana and of course the first words that were addressed to the crowd is how he could feel the love in this crowd and he carried it on since woodstock with this message and it was an incredible performance of course but something else that needs to be mentioned is of course the elephant in the room of 1969 was the draft. we don't have a current draft or people to get sent off any more if they don't want to go. basically these people that were at woodstock, he wasn't worried about getting drafted that other people were concerned about having those outside the rich man's war and this was one way for them to stand up and say no and it was also another way for them to say basically look at us here we are what are you going to do with this and handle this? we know what we would do now

with the patriot act and all of the people being put under surveillance for the war positions and probably a lot of them will never have a job if they progress these positions openly just like a lot of other people in the country. they lose their jobs and get blacklisted and get a car to put on them and it is just a whole different system and a society that we live under now where i don't think that woodstock could even occur. in ferguson you would have people that have a peace vigil. it's just like the occupied movement i don't think that they would be giving the stage the way that we willingly gave them the stage and 69. thank you. >> host: do you think that it could occur today? >> guest: i d >> guest: i do with the peace that was described of one of the crucial pivot points and nixon

understood that and turned the switch that basically stopped the draft and there were complications of how they did that but he knew that. and i think that is a major withdrawal of the cohesive patriotism that americans have always felt. they sit in their offices and spew out propaganda with no threat to them or their families. they know their kids are not going to the war and so that is distorted in orbits lee and i have been among those. for bringing back the draft because it feeds the bodies into the rich man's war machine to use your images, but there are ways to deal with that. so that if we are going to go to

the war, first of all you have the constitution but once that decision is made, there are multiple ways in which the burden can be shared universally thought in the taxes is one of them is not just through taxes. there is a lot of work to do in this country and you can do it with the rather low-wage workers if everybody of a certain age and quality has to do there turn. a lot of other countries in the world have the systems like that. and again i've never been enthusiastic as you can always think of the way the politicians might abuse that, but i think that you have hit on a really important point and i don't have complete answers either but that is the sort of thing -- let me add one more unpleasant thought.

i think we are in a really dangerous phase right now and it's not barack obama's fault but it is history telling us you better back out of this illusion that you are the worlds policemen anworld'spolicemen ano everywhere with your guns and restore order in the world. we see what that leads to and we have three or four of those things going on. that's hard to do if you're some of the reasons it is hard to do. if we didn't need to fight all of those it means these kids who died in iraq and afghanistan and vietnam were wounded in severely died for nothing and that is on all of us and that's why it's so

hard for the country to get back to its senses and the establishment clearly is not going to leave that. .. for the veterans but people in service -- i have been running this for years and i have to admit that none of my left-wing readers picked up on it -- the military actually has qualities that are distinctive in this society. they are a model for what we could work on to restore our patriotic solidarity. commitment in uniform up and down. they say we take orders and we do what the system says we got a do whether we like it or not. but the