>> historians have one talked about her book, "shores of knowledge: new world discoveries and the scientific imagination." this interview recorded at ucla as part of book tedious college series. it is just under 40 minutes. >> host: joyce appleby, what are you doing these days? >> guest: what am i doing these days? i waited for spring to arrive in new mexico so i can start gardening. >> host: are you still writing? are you teaching? >> guest: no, i am not writing or teaching. after nine books i should start reading other people's books sonatas what i've been doing with great pleasure. >> host: do you miss being here at ucla? >> guest: i miss people from ucla, but no. retirement is wonderful. you get to do what you want to do. you have time to read the newspaper for two hours if you want in the morning.

no, the only downside of retirement is that coincides with old age. >> host: what book are you best known for? >> guest: i don't know. possibly inheriting the revolution, which was social history of the first generation of americans. that is to say those were not 1776 and therefore didn't have any colonial background but inherited the revolution and its tradition from fathers and grandfathers. i think it's not that, perhaps the result is revolution, which is a history tappet is done. i really don't know. you'd have to have someone else a question. >> host: are you active of the american historical association? >> guest: no, no. i get the journal. i read the journal. and moved almost two years ago, so i left the big city life and

a certified professional life because i used to live across the street from ucla are mostly felt very much a part of the campus. but i love it. i live in basically overall area. it's right in the southern rockies, so it's very high. 7000 feet. very dry. it's a totally different environment. it's also a cultural center. a lot of fire. a lot of intellectual life. a lot of music. >> host: how many years did you teach at ucla? >> guest: i tot 20 years at ucla and then i lived here another seven or eight years after i retired. >> host: what courses did you teach? >> guest: i tot the introductory course, but the 17th and 18th century american history courses. >> host: windage you get interested in as a person? >> guest: i suppose when i went to graduate school.

i had a marvelous mentor and he could make anything seem charming and he loved to have his graduate students loved the age of jefferson, from jefferson's birth to his death in 26. that being an historian, i moved backwards and i went back to the beginning of the 17th century analysis studied english history and indeed i wrote a book on english history. >> host: joyce appleby, we provide to you to be on booktv here at ucla for your groceries the book, "shores of knowledge: new world discoveries and the scientific imagination" what are you attempting to do with this book? >> guest: well, and writing the book, i love the cover. >> host: what is on the cover? >> guest: ferdinand, isabella and native american cities brought back. and pineapples, which is

anachronism because pineapple could not survive this trip so it only came back astride pineapple and they have great trays full of pineapples. pineapples quickly became hospitality and luxury. that along with the ego came the symbols for the united states -- excuse me, for the americas. what i was trying to do for my own satisfaction was to answer a question. a fascinating question of how is it that the west, which is known for its investigative spirit, in which his scientific inquisitiveness is really the essence of western culture? how did they ever release curiosity from the prohibitions that the church has maintained on a?

from augustine through the 16th century, catholics and protestants preached to you or not to be curious about god's creation. there was an adult to re-to ask about tides or shapes of the earth. so this is a question to me. how did they break through this? my hunch was that it was columbus. not the discoveries, but what they brought back. all of the flamboyant birds, weird animals, stories of exotic people. of course they brought some back. this is so fascinating people had to break through the prohibition against curiosity and from that time on they become curious about the natural world and the relation of these

weird new things to the old things. so they have never looked at the natural objects around them before, but now they had this question of comparison. so that was my question was how to curiosity free itself from the church? when i finished the story, i really had done with the subtitle said. i'd really shown how the new discoveries have led to the scientific imagination, which changed european society from the isolated rigid cultural system to the one we know as expansive and curious. >> host: i want to start with the conclusion. in your book, which are respectively the most

significant consequence of the age of discovery is the awakening of europeans curiosity about the world in which they live. any attribute that to christopher columbus. he was a johnny appleseed before johnny appleseed brought things back. he took to europe every thing he hadn't seen in the new world, europeans grew as well as rats on the ship. so it is the columbian exchange that i see has blamed the basis for the study of botany, all of these things. they started with amateurs and ended with the great amateur of

all, charles sterling. he never used the word scientific. he referred to other inquiries this naturalist and assert a fascinating to see first they bring back these curiosities as they call them and the wealthy nobleman cover which merchants had cabinets of curiosity. have a feather from a bird and they had a park they can keep all these interesting animals. so it started out with this vulgar display as you might say. but this is very interesting. it's not really a lion, is that? it doesn't really look like a camel. this comparison began to lead to some collecting of data about

these animals and plants, not to mention the people. it is the undermining of true traditions in europe. the undermining of the greek tradition because there is no life at the equator and it is undermining of the biblical tradition because these animals are not a noah's ark. so this site being enhanced curiosity. and more free, more speculative than perhaps more necessary to have explanations. >> host: to go to the start of your book come he said the catholic church waged a campaign against curiosity. what was the goal of what the reason for that? >> guest: i think it was probably the other worldliness at the time the roman empire was

collapsing and the church was seen as the one safe place and there is a sense that the job of the human being was to understand what god wanted and not to be invested in the world around them. there was also this sense and refers to the greeks that we don't need to ask these questions that the greeks ask and why do we have waves and i think there is a sense of wanted to get people away from ms. and really concentrate on their well-being. >> host: roughly what timeframe are we talking about when it comes to your book? >> guest: when i'm talking about the curiosity, that starts in the first century and it continues all the way through.

even religious people who go recognize that they are doing something bold, but they are not trying to say this curiosity is natural to human beings. so it is really from the fourth century to the 16th century. >> host: who is alexander humboldt? >> guest: alexander humboldt is a fascinating man. he is a german who becomes financially independent when his mother dies, gives up his job in the prussian lines and sort of like saying now i can be as curious as i want. they spent five years, most of it in northern south america and he is fascinated by nature. but he is fascinated by the unity and nature. he is fascinated by climate. he is fascinated by the earth's

magnetism and it comes to the new world just burdened down with equipment. barometers and all of these things with he can measure the tides, the color of the water how it changes. he then becomes very interested in how plant life changes. they are the worlds first ecologist because he is interested in the diversity of nature and other natural forces. he was a great deal. he spent five years collecting all this information and then going back home in producing that she didn't go back home. he eventually went back to berlin, but volume after volume a five volume are called cosmos, which explains everything he knows about the world.

>> host: how do you draw a line between him and the 1800s or the 18th century and christopher columbus in the 15th, 16th century? >> guest: very different kinds of men. i don't think it was brilliant. he was very shrewd, very determined, very tough. i don't think christopher columbus was that curious. he didn't say while i found a new role. said he didn't have a lot of curiosity where is humboldt is just radiating with questions and he was the smartest person and he loves things that he discovered he took measurements and discovered based on the mat. the governor invited them for dinner and took great pride in

doing these things. he is more like darwin but they had different personalities. darwin was just in love with humboldt because humboldt wrote about his travels. darwin says they don't know that i would have gone to the new world if it hadn't been for humboldt. but when he was offered this position, he had argued that humboldt. davis translated works she travels when darwin was about 16 i think. so there is an interesting connection between those two are graciously curious men. >> host: this book is different the post of your books. is that fair? >> guest: . definitely so. once i retired i realized i didn't have to be a scholar. i didn't have to write about 17th and 18th century america. i could go on my curiosity.

these are written for the general public really. i draw on other scholars, not that they are inaccurate, but my idea is to reveal a world that i think would be interesting to a lot of people. >> host: you write in "shores of knowledge" that charles darwin's lesser-known book, descent of man was pretty significant and we don't concentrate on that. >> guest: no, we don't. it's very interesting. i just finished another study of darwin in which the three scholars point out that they believe that this sense of man, the relationship of age to human beings interested are within the very beginning, where is he presents, can't remember now, probably about 15 years after urge of the species and he started to present it as a later question and i guess they have information from his notes and

correspondence to indicate no, this is always something of interest. but darwin is fascinating because he's a very conventional person and he realizes that he is getting into these areas. he's no longer a man created in gods image, but rather as a chance to adapt to different changes. it's totally an intellectual of people and it takes darwin a long time to write it. in fact, he's really pushed by a man named wallace who is a real amateur compared to darwin, but has come across the same idea as, you know, the survival of the fittest in the way in which life is a struggle and any adaptation you can have that enhances your chances of

surviving is going to prevail an offender that influence had darwin finally does. in fact, he publishes an essay that he has written along with wallace. i don't think anyone ever considers wallace start when sql, but he was very generous with wallace. >> did charles darwin understand what he was doing when he was doing it and the impact it had? >> guest: that's what i do not. he had a very pious wife. i don't think i can remember, but there is some line that he takes out of the origin of species in deference to her. at any rate, he did know that. he also had that help. i mean, he is a complex person, but he did know what he was doing and certainly his

contemporaries knew. >> host: w-whiskey anti-religion? with your spiritualist? did he have a faith in god? >> guest: i think he believed in god, though i think it was more of a deist at the least. but god had created this marvelous universe and just to let it go and giving applause. he didn't have to be in there as a personal figure in people's lives or he didn't have to be pushing the planet around. gravity was enough to have a system go. that is what i think is religious belief is. >> host: when columbus came at a first time from the new world, what kind of reception did he get? what kind of news to detonate? what happened? >> guest: well, as the cover shows, he makes his presentation

and he was greeted warmly but the shrewd man is he brought his little goal. he brought it back and not open their eyes to the possibilities of the new world, plus isabel is a very devout christian and the idea of converting these people to christianity appealed to her. so when he returned for the second voyage, i think he had 12 ships and 1700 come to 1800 men and then all the cd drive. he wanted to plant things. so there is an immediate reaction to what he did. soon they were in poverty adolphus, soldiers there were no longer needed because they would

expel they would expel the morrison 1492. all this adventure is to the new world. see what they can do in the new world. and then, there are two people that i've mentioned foucault to the new world who are writers about it. when it's oviedo and the other is last cost us. and they write a natural history of the andes and that is extremely important for europeans. oviedo does not know latin, so he writes in spanish and that we've reached a much larger audience. so there is a reception. i don't want to say that everyone in europe stopped in their tracks and are no longer interested in what they had been before, but i would say it makes a big impression. >> host: joyce appleby, did the church understand that

columbus was doing and they continue? i hate to use the term the church because i don't know what that means. >> guest: we have a catholic church. the reformation has a calm, so we have an institution everybody's lives. everybody has a priest and a bishop and archbishop. all-encompassing institution. you're asking a question i done of the to linda how they responded to columbus. aeration mary's. they send missionaries right away. last process is one of the writers i talked about, but he goes out as a fire. his father goes out and he becomes the first freeze for the new world. and he is very concerned with the way the spanish are treating the native population. so he is a vigorous presence. he goes back to spain several

times to argue against how they are slaving the native population. so when that sense, i guess i do know how the church reacted. i know how the spanish church reacted. he was named protector of the indians and he becomes a bishop, but you know, the capacity to make a fortune in the new world and the number of people engaged and the distance from spain that there was very little the church could do. they could ameliorate the situation, but they could not stop the system the population for labor. >> host: the natural world, the spiritual world, has the conflict always existed invalid always continue to exist? >> guest: well, that is sort of like asking what good and

evil continue to exist? to the extent that human beings are as driven by self-interest as they are in at the same time they wish to be good, there is always going to be this. the wealthy are not content to be rich. they also want to be right. so i think this struggle between using our power and our own interest in using their power for good look probably always be there. >> host: who was copernicus? >> guest: copernicus was a city says in the 16th century who puts forward the idea that the earth was circling the sun. the sun wasn't still in the sky

to radiate its inhabitants, but in fact was one of many planets and that was of course that church did see juridical and the next 60, 70, 80 years later when galileo in versus copernicus decision he's forced to recant. he doesn't, but he knew it did. the dirty used his telescope to see jupiter and the moons around jupiter, so he had some sense of the workings of the solar system. >> host: when copernicus was that carry forward, with a well-publicized in certain circles? arrested a few elite? >> guest: i doubt it. i would imagine it is those people interested in the questions. how many of us are interested in string eerie and what citizens

are up to today. i imagine it was a small group. the church hierarchy would be very interested. >> host: again, going back to christopher columbus, trying to draw this line from christopher columbus. how did all of these discoveries give me because of his voyage? is that essentially what you're saying in your new book? >> guest: well, what i am saying, what i am saying really is he brings back all of these beings from the new world and they stimulate curiosity. so you have people interested in botany, for instance. these plants are here. why are they different? what explains this variety? botany had the advantage is something you could pursue in a beautiful estate. you can have a lovely garden and

be a botanist. so wealthy people who are interested in having their states would support botanists who would add the scientific overlay. all these inquiries, that is really what the book is about is how these inquiries begin from this new materials that it's brought back, there fesses their curiosity. another story, which is kind of interesting, one of my favorite stories in it can only know so much about the world today and if we don't know something, we know someone does. imagine living any time in which there's a question, fundamental question, what is the shape of the earthquakes nobody knew what the shape of the replies. newton said a stunned his theory that the europe with the shape of a tomato. it was tied at one end and round in the middle.

the french looked and wish to say anything like this. they interpreted it as they know, it's more like a japanese aid plan. say you have this idea and the french -- there are two french amateur scientists at trees and the camden me and they are both brilliant mathematicians. we learned mathematics that we could understand newton. please not that makes to gain the lottery. he discovered the french lottery, gave away more money than it took in. so he couple tears to get that money to buy out an entire lottery. at any rate, both of them decide they are going to test this.

they are going to go to the new world and take the latitude. and if he took the latitude commend the equator, at the north pole, you will know whether the earth is like a tomato. i don't know how much detail i can get into. but it's fascinating. the literary salons, the royal court. as they go up, he goes to the equator with a dozen soldiers and to botanists and three astronomers and the like. they spent six years going up and down the andes before they determine a latitude at the equally here. it's just really pergola garris. he goes to the north pole and not only takes in about 20 months, but it's terrible.

mosquitoes are so ferocious in the summer that they have to wear reindeer codes. anyhow, they determine the world is indeed shaped like a tomato. >> host: you write just as the europeans are getting used to the ideas are still swallowing the ideas, the greeks and the romans with all the new world ideas. >> guest: rate. of course what they were learning was important because they were very curious people and they gave them that says to follow. so while much of it in the new world disproved with the greeks had thought, they nonetheless had an impact because of their road curiosity and inquisitiveness of stay organized and wizardry. so you can say these resorted to powerful influences.

one totally unexpected and the other much more in the darkly inquisitive. >> host: what effect did reformation, i curiosity? >> guest: it didn't really have a lot of effect on it. alternately it did. i was just saying that there himself is not very curious it is not interested in these things. but the protestant churches because they were new institutions endorsed science and away the the catholic church did not right away. so i would say the reformation did have that impact that these inquiries that i'm talking about are moving north away from spain into france and england and another lens where the protestant church in many. it was more respect to the 2a.

>> host: what about the royal families in europe? did they add to? royal families, did they encourage scientific knowledge? >> guest: another question i'm not sure you know the answer to. obviously, ferdinand at the ballot but they were interested in souls than gold. so i wouldn't say the king -- i love this, the king of france brought back a contingent of two warring resilient tribes. they're actually cannibalistic tribes and he brought them back to showcase a fight and they become so violent that they have to round them up and ship them back. now, that is kind of royal curiosity.

>> host: in recent years and is it fair to say the reputation has taken a beating? >> guest: i certainly think discovering the new world is deeply offensive to the indigenous population. the beginning of the 18th 18th century the knew virtually nothing about the pacific.