between the godly society. we cannot proselytize them on the particular regions of the very fact based challenge, this could come back. >> thanks for your analyst is on this and a reminder to the c-span viewers that all of the supreme court oral arguments that we cover are available on the website c-span.org.

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know what you think about the programs you're watching. joined a c-span conversation, like us on facebook, follow us on twitter. >> next, today's "washington journal." we started our program with an update on the situation in ferguson missouri. then took your calls. this is about 45 minutes. >> host: a very good monday morning to. first headline front pagesyo frm papers around the united states and outside the country as well on the situation in ferguson.us. the front page of the "st. louis post-dispatch," clashes, chaos, please again used tear gas on ferguson protesters."the to the globe from candida come extraordinary circumstances is the headline there. mstances is the headline. state police attempt to calm protesters.

you can see one of the pictures from the protests there. to "the denver post," feds take a larger role. holder orders a new autopsy. a report says the teen was shot six times. finally, "usa today," groups in ferguson, the curfew must end. the weekended over by governor jay nixon in ferguson. a picture there as well with demonstrators speaking to captain ronald johnson of the missouri highway patrol, pointed by the governor to take control of the security operations in the city of ferguson, missouri. i want to start by reading from the st. louis piece. the most updated piece this monday morning, moments after ronald johnson announced that new security steps were planned in ferguson that would not include the national guard, governor jay nixon announced that he was activating those

forces. the story goes on to note that johnson, who was put in control of the security of the north county streets last week, claimed a small group of blamed a small group of educators. we are asking for your thoughts and comments. the national guard has been deployed to ferguson. a statement from jay nixon from late last night and early this morning. he said "i joined the people of ferguson and all missourians in condemning the criminal activity that includes firing upon law enforcement officials."

that is from governor jay nixon's office in the middle of the night last night releasing that statement. the national guard on its way to ferguson. we would like to get your assessment of the police response and your take on the national guard being deployed. jake calling in on the line for missouri residents this morning on the "washington journal," good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. host: go ahead. caller: to be honest, i have split my time between st. charles and st. louis for the majority of my life. know too much about the issues in ferguson. to be honest with you, this thing happened so quick. there is so much history. it kind of feels like a self-fulfilling half as you. what i wish would happen, that people would not have freaked out so bad. the police department -- i know

there is the autopsies that are going on, they really have to come together and do a quick investigation and get the information out. i see the situation spiraling even more. it feels like even though the highway patrol on the governor is involved, this really has no direction. i do not want to see people get hurt, you know? you have got to come together and try to figure it out. i do not see too much. host: what is your assessment of jay nixon and how he is handling the crisis? out of keeping politics it in general and just looking at it from that perspective, i feel like he should have been involved a little earlier. we do not know what goes on behind the scenes. says i have been consulting on this since the beginning. he was not as visible as he should have been. i do not really think that he is going to -- his presence is

going to help or hurt things in ferguson. it is just that culture that i continue to read about over there where most of the cops come in, they are not part of that city, they come from somewhere else. the racial split. maybe he could have gotten the ball rolling a little better and have been more verbal. it does not seem like nixon himself is going to make or break the situation. host: do you want to sierra coulter on the ground or even the president go to ferguson - holderwant to see eric on the ground or even the president go to ferguson? caller: there is so much of this on the ground. some places do not get attention, if this is the big thing that has captured attention, i would rather see someone with juice like a president or attorney general come down here than someone who just wants to get on tv. i think that would be a good thing. honestly, i think the best thing that happened was then taking this out of the hands of the local cops.

people have issues with federalism and stuff like that -- if you have people who might have videos or people who are scared of the police, they have got to be able to go straight to the doj and given evidence. this is the only time i have been glad that eric holder is the attorney general since he got in there. peter's,e from st. missouri on that special line for missouri residents. phone lines are open to talk about the missouri governor jay nixon deploying the national guard to ferguson. asking you about the place -- asking you about the police response. the federal response in "the new york times," white house aides have made repeated phone calls to jay nixon in recent days.

we are taking your calls and comments this morning on the "washington journal." david in massachusetts. good morning. caller: good morning. i definitely think there is a small group of agitators in ferguson. i believe it is the police department. basically, the mishandling of that incident has led to this. they refused to get on the ball and release things in a timely fashion. when they did, they did it in a way that was downright nasty. yeah, there is a small

criminal element. it is the ferguson police department and their actions. talking about the investigation side. what about the response to the protest industry and along waterside? -- the protest in the streets and the law and order site? caller: that is what i am talking about. the investigation, the way they handled it. they are showing their police state mentality instead of protect and serve. host: david from massachusetts. his story on the law enforcement a story on law-enforcement response. police forces are not only turning to military style equipment to take on law-enforcement tasks, sometimes i'm not even trained properly how to use the weapons of war.

the congressman being talked about story that appeared on the sunday shows, lacy clay of missouri. a democrat. he fee is on cnn's "state of the union." [video clip] beginning of this week, st. louis county police and ferguson police were too heavy-handed in the way they interact with peaceful demonstrators. these demonstrators have a right to assemble in a peaceful manner. they have a right to be heard. very confrontational. it should not have been. i think that when captain ron johnson came in from the missouri highway patrol, then things began to level out. and he struck a good balance. --ween montfort spent an

between law enforcement and interacting with demonstrators. problem in ferguson and across this region and across america are that police forces in african-american communities, are not diverse enough. they do not have enough diversity within their force. they do not have a healthy relationship with the african-american community that they are supposed to police. we have to have a national conversation about how police forces should interact with the african-american community, who happen to be paying their salaries and who want to be served and protected, who these officers are taking an oath to do so. lacy clay yesterday on cnn. asking your response to the news that missouri governor jay nixon

s deployed national guard forces to keep peace. jerome in miami, florida. caller: good morning. i think it is a good thing that they put the national guard inside those communities. in miami, we've had a couple riots. using outside forces usually does help in quelling some of the violence. done a lot by people who do not have jobs. the speeches went well and then at night, everything seems to go violent all of a sudden. a curfew should be in place to protect his misses and people-- a curfew should be in place to protect businesses and people. police, fire, and other civil service agencies need to start who live inpeople those communities.

that way they know the people little bit more. maybe the person who saw the person could say oh, i know -- i know the ground there, i know his father and mother. people who have jobs and are living outside those communities do not have any real ties to the community. host: to your first point, were you saying you think there is usually more tension between the community and the local police? and that is why you think the national guard might be more of a calming presence? caller: there's always more tension between the locals -- even your local police are not really local. they come from other areas. host: jerome bringing up the curfew that is in place in ferguson. jay nixon releasing a statement on that as well over the weekend. saying the reason a curfew was put in place is because we saw a pattern developed over the weekend after hours of peaceful protesting, some individuals to to the streets with the intent

of committing crimes and endangering citizens. and that is acceptable. kristin and ashburn, virginia, good morning. host: hi, i'm a first-time caller. i'd like to make a couple points. ferguson,ppening in it is just a shadow of what has really been going on all over the country with the militarization of the police forces. i highly recommend people to the rmanings of william no

briggs, he writes on police brutality across the country. from no-knock, middle of the state:aids also, "police usa," that has been chronicling abuses at the hands of the police state. i am deeply sorry for what has been happening. i think the deploying of the national guard is showing the american public what is coming in this country. we do not mind sending in the military. i am frightened for the future. i pray that people's eyes are d to the continuing diminishment of our rights as u.s. citizens. in ashburn,n

virginia bringing up the militarization of the police. taken on by the editorial board of "washington times." "when cops play soldier." according to the editorial board -- "the degree to which many have becomemilitarized has a threat to public confidence and authority. the editorial board of "the washington times." also with a story of the arming of the police. accompanied by a chart talking

about the defense authorization bill dating back to the 1990's that allow the federal government to lend and self andss property to state local law enforcement agencies, driving the debate around the militarization of modern police forces. the chart notes that the program has loaned out about $5.1 billion worth of property, million in 2013 alone. weapons account for only 5% and tactical vehicles of the 35%. other materials include office furniture, and forklifts. among the weapons that are given out

that chart accompanying a "washington times" story. your thoughts on the response of the police so far. rodney in lee's summit on the line for missouri residents. caller: good morning. say if the perception of the community is that the police are overreacting and very violent, more police presence will not solve the .roblem it seems simple and almost oxymoronic. thank you. were in governor jay nixon's shoes, what would you do? doler: they have to negotiations. they cannot go on with this like they are doing now. it is not solving the problem. , fear turns to anger and anger turns to resolve -- they are starting a revolution

and do not seem to know it. the police are starting a revolution and do not know it. host: romney on our line for missouri residents. also on the line for missouri residents, darrell from defiance. caller: good morning, how are you? i don't think the national guard is going to do a thing to help the situation. i would like to ask the people of c-span, when is the last time you heard of a black cop shooting a white child down in cold blood -- you just don't hear it because it does not happen. it is always these hillbilly white boys who shoot first and ask questions last. they talk to black people like their dogs. all they have to do is charge this dude with first-degree murder and we would not be having any of this. and themissouri police prosecuting attorney want to do everything they can do to make or to prove that

this cop did nothing wrong. and another black man is dead. this is happening all over the country. i don't know why anyone is surprised. every week we hear about another black man shot in the back were shot while he is on the ground or choked to death, and not a thing is being said. host: keith is up next in evansville, indiana. good morning. caller: good morning. aam just calling in to make comment. a good friend of mine was killed by a police officer several years ago. they told him to come out of the and then had come out the police officer jumped out and shot him and killed him. we did not have all that and destroying other peoples property because of what the cops did. the cop got away with it for the rest of his life. there will be justice. like i said, the cop has got to pay with it.

do not tear anybody else's stuff up just because something happened or use it as an excuse. that is my comment. host: a story in "the washington two missouri churches, prayers cannot bridge the divide. one prays for the embattled officer, another prays for the teenager. at one church, they fear they might be attacked by rioters. in ferguson, a congregation spep a story in today's "washington post." juanita from new jersey. opinion is that

at this present time, because of the situation that is going on, i think it may be necessary for officers -- the guards -- ok. but, my point is this. i think that the media like cnn 98%all the heavy media have of the fault of what is going on in that missouri city at this time. if not 98%, at least 50%. you know why? a famous day -- the media is given to them. all the things

going on, the police, throwing against these few -- they are making this outside meaning for what has happened. host: you are saying the media coverage is making the situation worse? caller: to me, 98% but at least 50%. they put all of these shelling and then they come out -- they thenll these showing they come out. then they get the real information about what is going on. then that is when they explained. host: would you prefer that the media not be in ferguson, missouri right now? caller: i think you have a limit of information.

somebody on either both sides. peoplethe activist giving feedback. and then the police. state? -- see? host: how would you organize protesters there so there is only one place? caller: in the beginning you might only get a few people showing up. you have to get leaders of the community to organize this and then have a spokesperson to speak about what is going on. the media is getting in. when they show all the police force, pushing them throwing gas because they need to get -- later, they find out they needed to get to somebody that got shot. host: a few comments on our twitter page. "i don't think the situation will get better until the officer is indicted for

murder." ressmen need to stop funding for deer and rodeo and by body cams." we will be talking about this for the next 20 minutes or so on the "washington journal." i'll be in petersburg, virginia. good morning. caller: good morning. the reserve and i retired in 2003. i understand what is going on with the military being implemented, but i'm totally against it. for those who are not oblivious to american politics, you understand -- president ronald reagan instituted what was rex 84, stating that if

there was an uprising from minority groups, they would be detained. also, alexis is hopeful -- tocqueville said america has never experienced eight revolution and will not until the black man rise that. -- rised up. through the institution of slavery in all the things that have happened, our people are very agitated and upset. to keep pacifying them and these murders continue. last year, i would suggest three books. host: will get onto some other callers. miami, florida. raul, good morning.

caller: hey, how's it going. the police officers are trying to do their jobs. have a testimony that michael jobs struggling with the gun or something. they have a testimony that michael brown struggled with the gun or something. i have not heard that on c-span. out: there's a lot coming with the investigation. a lot of details we are waiting to hear about the investigation. what do you think about what we know about the police response? caller: people are trying to their job. they shot at a helicopter, i heard that. it is not like the things happening. miami, florida. "the washington post" covering the national guard being sent to ferguson. after violent unrest erupts in ferguson, among those who were quoted in that "washington post" cornell, the tauscher

a 40 two-year-old who lives blocks from the scene. she said she was furious. she says half of the purchasers are not even from the area. we do not have to many stores anymore because they burn it all. my son ran home from work, he was terrified. it is not a race issue anymore, people just want to vent and loo. -- and loot. natasha cornell, on the ground in ferguson, zürich. missouri.on, approachhen the police minorities, they see them as unemployed, uneducated, high school dropouts, problem makers. they take out all their aggressions on them. you talking about the

situation in your neighborhood, in new york, new york? what has been your experience in new york? i think there should be more income equality in this country. income inequality, they will treat you like a second-class citizen. someone is poor and uneducated and they will keep doing this. that is norman from new york. we will go to data in san diego, california. good morning. caller: listen. i am listening to a bunch of nonsense -- people calling in. google search and you will see that there was a cell phone video of the scene while the kid was industry, -- in the street dead. black witness was giving testimony. the kid tried to grab the guy's

gun, it went off inside the car, he tried to take off. the top told him to stop. he shot him twice in the chest and kept coming. he got about three or four feet closer and he shot him in the forehead. the cop did exactly what he had to do, the kid kept coming at him. what is he supposed to do? he keptred him. -- shooting him. the blackming, witness said this on a video, he him.to shoot him and hado stop >> host: that's been the calling in from california. a report coming out about the autopsy, one of the autopsies was done on the victim michael brown leading "the new york times" this morning. was hit at least six times. michael brown -- all of the

bullets were fired into his front according to the autopsy. the bullets did not appear to be shot from parish close range because no gunpowder was present on the body according to the report. that determination could change if it turns out there's gunshot residue on mr. brown's clothing which the person who did the autopsy did not have access to. that was a private autopsy performed on sunday, "the new york times" getting information about that. lots of details still to come out. we want to hear from you this morning about the police response so far to the announcement this morning of the deployment of the national guard to ferguson. one other piece in "the new york times," this op-ed by charles bloke who writes frustration in ferguson. the headline of this piece. there violence and looting. police forces in the town responded with outlandish

military like presence. more befitting baghdad then suburban missouri. the police response so far a topic that governor jay nixon addressed in his appearance on one of the sunday shows hesterday. he was on abc's this week to discuss the situation in ferguson. here's what he had to say. >> all of us were thunderstruck either pictures we saw. i mean, the over militarization, the and perhaps rolling in, the guns pointed at kids industry. all of that i think instead of ratcheting down brought a motion up and that's why i made the unique decision to bring in our highway patrol, to have a local

leader, captain johnson from that community in that community which he has been. and to put a much different face on law enforcement. i think it is paid off. while respecting and allowing the appropriate first amendment rights for people to grieve and to speak. >> host: and this issue catch the attention of several members of congress. one of those members, hank johnson, democrat of georgia releasing a bill that he intends to introduce when congress comes back in session. it's the stop militarizing law enforcement act that he plans to introduce available on his website. there's a copy of the stop militarizing law enforcement act there. let's go to clarence in cleveland, ohio. clarence, good morning. >> caller: good morning, c-span. i was more or less calling about the situation in ferguson. one of the earlier callers kind of stole my fire.

anybody in america from the age of 10 to 100 got a cell phone. i'm quite sure this was captured on cell phone. so people in ferguson, just put the request in about can you be shot while you are in surrender mode? you know, they need to turn in those videos, you know, so that at least the question and answer because that question is bigger than they are worried about talking on their cell phones. that's all i've really got to say. >> host: jerrod is waiting in maryland. good morning. >> caller: good morning. my comment is, what about the right for peaceful assembly and protests? that's all well and good. but the looting, they getting violent, this goes very much against the grain of what's worked best in the last 50

years, the civil rights movement, martin luther king, peaceful protests, nonviolence. david -- there will be an investigation. someone will be proven to be wrong. the policemen, perhaps will be indicted for first degree murder. the eyewitnesses said the hands were up, and the kid was trying to surrender. he will be proven a liar and she should be held accountable if that's the case. the looters have to be stopped. what is wrong with militarization and after one attempt of a peaceful protest there's a lot of violence? what about the shopkeepers? what about all the people who feel their safety is at risk? i'd be happy to see a line of armed militia out in a situation like that. thank you. >> host: do you think the national guard deployment here stokes some of those tensions, or it has to be sort taken out of the hands of the folks who

have been dealing with it so far since the incident itself? >> caller: i don't think that it's an overreaction when there's that kind of violence, to bring out what you need to make sure it doesn't happen again. i think people often need to just have a better sense of where to be and when to be there. where i live there is routine -- pretty regular, college kid showing up after basketball games and everybody wants to go see what's going to happen. let's just go see what happens. you go down to it happening is and should not be part of the happening. >> host: that's jared in maryland. twitter, to begin to solve the unrest in ferguson see if there is enough evidence to charge darren wilson and remove jackson. as was said that the president arriving back at the white house late last night. one of the other issues he's going to be getting with at the white house today is meetings on the situation in iraq whether

tenet has widened its air campaign in northern iraq. here's a headline from "the wall street journal." the story noting the u.s. -- for the first bos time in support of a kurdish ground offensive to take the mosul dam. that is part of that increased effort that's part of that increased effort, the president sends a letter to congress yesterday, a war powers resolution, regarding iraq, writing in that letter to speaker boehner -- "the militarye limited in scope and duration as necessary to support the iraqi

forces to take control of the critical infrastructure site as ongoing campaign against the terrorist group the islamic state of iraq and he wilthe levant." signed by the president in his letter yesterday to speaker john boehner. as we said some lawmakers have been pressing for a war powers a vote on what is happening now in iraq and the renewed operation. there's a headline from a recent story in "the wall street journal." senator ron johnson was asked specifically about that issue yesterday on fox news about whether the administration needs to come to congress to ask for a vote. here's what he had to say. >> first of all it's a good sign

president obama is being asked. on us for a couple of weeks ago president obama did invite about eight or nine members of the foreign relations and armed services committee to the white house to speak with his counsel about a new authorization for use of military force, which i think is pretty long overdue. they are finding out that trying to act militarily with the current authorizations in place is becoming pretty tenuous. it's a good sign that president is recognizing the fact he's going to need authority to deal with this new asymmetric threat. we just heard from greg. isis method of diplomacy are beheadings, chris efficient and -- crucifixions. these are people need to be defeat him on present obama is beginning to act. >> host: that was senator ron johnson, republican from wisconsin yesterday on one of the sunday shows. we will keep him of the situation in iraq and the u.s. military strikes there. in our next segment of the

"washington journal." we will be joined by a director of the kurdistan regional government's d.c. office who will talk about that issue in u.s. efforts with kurdish forces. was about five minutes left to continue our discussion on missouri governor deploy the national guard to ferguson, missouri. let's go to alonso who was been waiting in california. good morning. >> caller: good morning, and first of all my thoughts and prayers are with the family of the young man who was shot. and also with the officer and with all the people of ferguson, and my summary by extension. i think this is an attempt, not so much -- i hate to chuckle about it but this has become, as a kind of to quote one of your earlier callers, a media driven story that has a life of its own. i think it's unfortunate. i think that everyone needs to

take a collective breath if at all possible. but i might remind everyone in the audience it was about a year ago and i believe it was in missouri that a young man, a college student from australia was shot in the back by three youths who were just out looking for someone to kill. his family handled that with a tremendous amount of grace, as did the community. and he is, there were no riots surrounding him, ma either here or in his home country. i think we can take a look from the australian people and discard and possibly try to live up to that standard they set. >> host: when you say this is in part media driven, how do you

solve that aspect of this? >> you know, in a large part, editor member his name, msnbc reporter who was in the mcdonald's and i'm all in favor. i take it's a good thing to have the internet and it's a good thing to have cameras, you know, one aspect of the fallout from this case is that all police officers are required to wear cameras on their helmets, that would be fine by me. and i think they would agree with that, too. 99% of the officers are honest anyway. but just this aging on of the police -- taking on in order to have a story to write the next it is what i saw in the behavior

of that reported. i don't know if that, in fact, is what's happened, but it just seems like there is a kind of cynical cycle to go through with everyone of these raise driven stories going back beyond o.j., back beyond rodney king. it exists. every time race is discussed in a criminal case, whether it's an incident in central park or whatever it is. >> host: alonso in california referencing the shooting death of an australian citizen in the united states and oklahoma that happened last year. let's go to alan waiting in ashland kentucky. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i just wanted to say that in the first place anytime to police officers coming at you telling you to stop, you need to stop.

i mean, that's common sense. just on the video alone, the guy was aggressive. and then the guy that testified, the first one they had on camera, the guy was given what was going on with his little friend that he passed off the sigar box to. that was kind of redundant to have somebody on there like that. the guy who was part of his little plan to rip off the little store owner. so basically i don't think they ought to file charges against the police officer. that was doing his job. what they ought to do is take a look at people that are condoning the fact that he's going in and he is causing trouble for store owners and giving like the. i don't think what the police officers fall. i really don't. i think he did his job and i think people need to really take a good look at all of this and see who was out of hand. >> host: allen in kentucky. we will go to will be in nashville, tennessee. will become your thoughts on the

deployment of the national guard and ferguson, which we found out early this morning trade yes. i've got a comment that even more a bigger question than that is that i don't know if you've read but some of those people called in earlier, i wish they would read the article on reparation so they could understand the systemic and institutional racism that's been in this country since slavery. like in levittown, all the houses that were built, all the red lining in the real estate. >> host: bring us forward to today and let's talk about ferguson and what we're talking about this morning, the response so far. >> caller: black officers like it is because systemic racism. and the questions, the whole

country is the same way. we've got police killing black youth all over the country. >> host: willie -- >> joined us later today on the c-span network. at noon will be at the cato institute for a look at increasing congressional transparency through wikipedia. despite past controversies over how the online encyclopedia shares and edits its information. watch that live on a companion network c-span. president obama is taking a break from his family vacation today for meetings of. is expected to be breached by attorney general eric holder about the situation and ferguson, missouri. you also get an update on iraq. meanwhile, today marks eric cantor's first the outside congress in a long while. the former republican majority leader resigned following his primary defeat. he explain the fact he's leaving midterm by saying he needed to get started working in the private sector.

>> here's a look at a primetime lineup for this week on the c-span network. each and i started at 8 p.m. eastern.

>> a discussion now on the situation with isis from a kurdish perspective from today's "washington journal," this segment is just under 45 minutes. >> host: karwan zebari is the

director of the kurdistan regional government in the trendy. he is based here in washington, d.c. and joins us to discuss the situation in iraq and the role of the kurdish people. first i want to get your assessment of the 10 -day-old u.s. air campaign and specifically the stories that we are seeing this morning on efforts to retake the strategic a dam in mosul. >> guest: good morning. it's good to be. first of all let me start off by thanking the u.s. government and u.s. military for stepping up and assisting us and pushing back and repelling the attacks of isis. so far the airstrikes have been very effective in what they've been able to do. isis was gaining a lot of momentum in a short period of time. what this was able to do, these airstrikes have been able to stop the momentum and now we are on the offensive in terms of the forces in conjunction with u.s. air support and pushing back on isis. i'm sure we will be talking about the dam today, that has

been at least one of the accomplishments of the last 24-48 hours that we've been able to accomplish in stopping the momentum and reversing this process. >> host: we are showing our viewers some of the video of some of the u.s. air strikes that have taken place. talk about the importance of this damn, why has this become such a focus? >> guest: this is the largest dam, largest infrastructure in the country. that concerned are, with isis took over, it requires constant maintenance. our intelligence sources are telling us is sometimes they need to be pouring as much as 600 tons of concrete and steel into these holes that are being sucked up by the oil, pardon, by the water. this within four days. this requires constant maintenance and if this maintenance isn't done properly, is intent on time it could become a catastrophic problem

for the rest of the community surrounding this. the other concern was, it provides electricity to enlarge number of people. if isis cuts off the power or blows up the grid, this can take years and years to rebuild it. and third, of course it would be concerned about isis blowing it up, if they were to do that, this will be a disaster for the whole region. it could send waves as high as 63 feet high down the country, and embassies as far as, in baghdad would be consumed with about nine feet of flooding in their complex. >> host: of course the other aspect of his effort here is a human can ever. can you talk about the latest on that? specifically how it has affected the kurdistan regional government. >> guest: the influx of refugees have been coming in constantly. at the beginning of the year we had about a quarter million

refugees from syria, the result of the unrest in syria. unit also isis started moving into the country in iraq and ramadi and fallujah and those areas. we started seeing about 70,000 more. on june 9 when isis took over the areas of mosul and made huge advances and captured a lot of territory in western iraq we start to see hundreds of thousands of people. lately when it took over some of the towns like sinjar and other towns, we started seeing hundred thousand more. right now anywhere between 1.5 to 2 million refugees are seeking refuge in the kurdistan region. this has put a load on the kurdistan government and this is where we've been calling the international community to step up and help us and assist the people and these id these. >> host: can you understand what the regional government is and what the relationship is in

baghdad? >> guest: so kurdistan region came to the region perception after the first '04 of 1991 when the u.s. and allies came into the region to push saddam out of kuwait. they fought side-by-side with american forces. you had the allied forces also push from the south and getting saddam out of the country. so when the conflict stop and saddam -- the allied forces look, saddam came out and brutally massacred the north. what ended up happening, five many people went into the neighboring countries, turkey and iran in 1991 and has taken, chaos. with the allied forces in the and was detained again and create a no-fly zone and created a safe haven.

so fast-forward to 2003, this was a region already liberated, already self governed by the local government. we already had a head start ahead of the rest of the country. after the 2003 operation iraqi freedom, you had the country leader or dictators toppled and kurdistan gained more autonomy. if not officially part of the, part of iraq which is an autonomous recognized in the constitution. you have huge representation in the iraqi government but also parliament and the kurdistan region with its own forces and own diplomatic mission husband what is the kurdistan regional government of the newly forming government in baghdad right now? >> guest: let's take a look at what's happened in the past few years under the leadership of prime minister maliki. prime minister maliki hijacked the political process and alienated the kurds,

marginalized the sunnis and consume a lot of power. iraq has not had a minister of defense, has not had a head of central intelligence agency or head of the central bank. this led to a lot of problems that we're seeing in the isis and the extremist being able to penetrate through the ranks and their controlling such large territories in a short period of time. now you've got new elections that took place in april, there's a new speaker of the parliament who has been appointed. he has at present was from the christian unity and a new prime minister who has been appointed from the shia bloc. what we have to do, and we're glad to see the developer on friday, prime minister maliki stepping aside and willing to give this time and space for the new government. so we are optimistic. we have to get some time and space for the new prime minister

put the new government and new cabinet together and bring this country back together. which critical and what's important is to make sure the steps prime minister maliki took are not repeated. what's important is that the new prime minister, forms a government that is inclusive of all communities, other minority groups. this is the only way to bring this country back if there is a way to bring about. >> host: we are asking our views if your questions in iraq right now, specifically the efforts of the kurdish people in iraq we are joined for about the next 35 minutes or so by karwan zebari. he's the head of the kurdistan regional government office here in d.c. he's taking your questions and comments. phone lines are open. republicans call us at (202) 585-3881. democrats, (202) 585-3880. independents (202) 585-3882. if you're outside the u.s., (202)585-3883. before we get to calls i know the kurdistan regional

government held a demonstration near the white house over the weekend. looking for support for the kurdish people in iraq. what is the kurdistan regional government asking of the united states right now? >> guest: we are confronted with a lot of challenges right now. first you mentioned the humanitarian crisis. the country is inundated with refugees. the region with a population of about 5.3 million. today we have approximately 5.1 million because there is no exact account the coming in by tens of thousands. so this has been a huge burden on the krg's leadership in providing and assisting these refugees. on top of this, we have not received a single penny which we are entitled to from baghdad as the result of the oil revenues. baghdad possessed $9 billion. has not been a single penny that is, from the beginning of this

year. without money coming in, revenue coming in, what we tried to offset and making up for the missed budget by exporting oil to the international market, baghdad once again under leadership of prime mr. maliki threatened in the international buyer. that's the most urgent challenge that's facing us and we need international committee to step in and help out. the other challenge of course is the security. isis has been able to capture a lot of u.s. grade or u.s. military weapons that were given to the iraqi security forces. when isis advanced towards mosul as a full division and two police divisions, melt away and abandoned their weapons. isis to go for a lot of the heavy equipment. what they are doing is they are bringing this heavy equipment and fighting the forces, which

are lightly armored yet fierce fighters. but it doesn't help when you're outgunned. what's been happening, they've been running for ammunition, out of bullets and the second most challenging. make sure the new government is formed in time and inclusive in baghdad. that is very critical. >> host: on the military front when the u.s. is supplying arms and trying to find isis in iraq. would you say that training should go strictly to the kurdistan regional government and avoid the central government in baghdad? guest: when the zone were given to the military, and we know how fears and experience and loyal the forces are. bullet that not a single has called into the hands of crisis as as a result of them depending their post.

what is the relationship between the iraqi forces and the peshmerga forces? guest: this is where a lot of the parents came from, but remember iout we were self-governed, and we had t together our own special force, our own security forces, and this is sort of independent from the iraqi military, yet obviously within the umbrella of the iraqi military. but they are not necessarily controlled by baghdad. these are over 100,000 up to 180,000 including reserves that are controlled and are only operating within the kurdistan region of iraq and protecting the borders and the security of the region. and so the demonstration that took place other the weekend, that's what it was. it was calling for more airstrikes, intensifying airstrikes, calling for the u.s. military and the administration in this case to -- [inaudible] capabilities by providing heavy

equipment so that we are balanced along with isis. again, isis has very equipment, very effective equipment, highly technical from u.s. military that was given to the iraqi security forces. >> host: let's get to phone calls. waiting from las vegas, nevada, on our line from independents. good morning. >> caller: good morning, sir. i'd like to ask the gentleman that since he's afraid to mention israel as being a main supporter, all through the years the israelis have supported kurdistan to break away from the arabs and also controls the american government's attitude in that era. kurdistan is not an arab country. you are mongolian, and you're white. so you are not arab. you portray yourselves as arab kurds, you're not. you're an israeli agent. >> host: mr. zebari, do you want to talk about some of the history there? >> guest: well, you're absolutely right, the kurds are

an indo-european family or people that come from a different family than the arabs, the turks, obviously, the jews and others and the persians, absolutely. but as far as being the agents of israel, absolutely not. the kurdistan region, kurdistan region of iraq, again, distinct society, ethnicity, we do have relations with israel, but just like egypt does and just like jordan does and other countries have, we see the israelis, the israeli government as a friend and not necessarily as a foe. so being the necessarily agents of israel is a misstatement and inaccurate. >> host: let's go to mona in front royal, virginia, on our line for republicans. mona, good morning. >> caller: good morning. hello. >> host: hi, mona, go ahead. you're on with -- >> caller: i just wanted you to put up a map and show me exactly

where kurdistan is. >> host: all right, mona. >> caller: did you hear me? >> host: yes, mona. we have you, we'll show you -- did you have a question? >> caller: no, that's all. i just wanted a map in the background. it's very interesting hearing him. >> host: all right, mona, thanks for the call. and as we're doing that, we'll go to steve waiting in chicago, illinois, on our line for independents. steve, good morning. and, steve, before you call in, the kurdistan regional government, it's that area in the red and white striped area in the northeastern part of iraq there. before steve goes, that region made up of a couple different parts, provinces of iraq. what are the components of the kurdistan region? >> guest: sure. so greater kurdistan, obviously, it's divided into four countries, iraq, iran, syria and turkey. this is, kurdistan's the large -- kurds are the largest

population, ethnicity in the world without its own state. the kurdistan region of iraq, the region that i represent is, obviously, consisting of three major provinces, and when isis tried to take over the fourth proives, kirkuk, the forces moved in and were able to control it before isis got to them. you've got the province that has been receiving the at least -- 1.2 million idps and refugees. you've got the capital city which is irbil and the second largest city in the region. >> host: and for mona, the size of iraqi kurdistan is about the size of south carolina. population about 3.8 million people and has its own parliamentary i democracy there. now we'll get to steve's call from chicago, illinois. steve, good morning. >> caller: hey. how are you guys? >> host: good, steve, go ahead. >> caller: hey, i would like to make a comment to the great guest that we all know that the

kurds are our greatest friends in america. we know this. they have fought for us and for us in all the wars. that we've had over there, okay? and what i want to say is one simple thing from chicago, illinois. i will praise the kurds, and i just wish -- and i have one question. are the kurds getting the armament, i mean, the serious, i mean, the real military armament that they need? >> host: mr. zebari. >> guest: well, thank you, sir, i appreciate the compliment. you're absolutely right, the

kurds have always viewed the united states, the americans as friends and allies of the region. to this point, despite all the violence that's been happening in iraq, not a single, not a single u.s. personnel or contractor has ever been killed, kidnapped or wound inside the kurdistan ream, the region that's -- region, the region that's been controlled by the kurdish security forces. and we're very grateful for this, for the american support and the liberation of iraq, absolutely. in terms of us fighting for and side by side the american forces, that's absolutely true. we've cone that in 199 -- we've done that in 1991, 2003, and we stand ready to do this, and we've always considered forces as boots on the ground. we don't necessarily need american boots on the ground. we have the boots, we have the capability, and we have the will to do it. however, what we need to be doing is getting the right equipment so that we can carry on this fight. you cannot fight a nonpiercing

humvee or an armored humvee with an ak-47. our intelligence sources tell us when they're firing at it, it's like throwing a small rock at the wall which nothing penetrates. in terms of us getting the right equipment, the heavy equipment that we've been asking for to offset the balance, tip the balance with isis, some of the light munition and light arms have come in, but this is not effective. what we have asked for is more heavier equipment, and we have provided a list to the u.s. government, u.s. military, and there's also there is a joint operations center operating in the capital city of the kurdistan region, american joint operation center, and they are also assessing what our needs are, the advisers are sometimes coming to the front lines and assessing what needs are. to this point, this equipment has not made it to the front lines where we can go on a major offensive. again, john, it's important that your audience knows that we used

to have a 1 is,050 border that we shared with the forces. today out of the 1,050, 1,035 kilometers is shared with isis and these militants. the other side of that border is isis. so the peshmerga forces are stretched very thin across that large border, so that's why isis has been somewhat effective. they would find out knowing that the peshmerga forces were stretched, they would find a weak point, attack it, and then mobilize somewhere else and attack it. what we have to do is beef up all this border, and then we can go on the offensive and push back on this advances that isis is making. the dam is one of the examples that the peshmerga forces have been able to recapture the mosul dam. however, there is no more isis militants on the dam at this point. >> host: the caller brought up

the history of the strong relationship between the u.s. and the kurdish people. but can you also explain the history of the united states designating some kurdish political parties as terrorist groups, why that happened? >> guest: right. this was part of a longer procedure and broader procedure and how the two political parties got looped into this designation. in 2001 you had the u.s. congress after september 11 drafted and voted on the patriot act which was kind of established the department of homeland security. in that there's a paragraph that says any group of people consisting of two or more people, political party organizations that fight against the host country or host government regardless of how corrupt or bad it may be will be listed as not necessarily tier i, tier ii, but tier iii. it's a lighter version of being terrorist organization. so the two main political parties, the kurdistan democratic part and puk just by

definition fell into this category. again, it's not tier i, tier i would be al-qaeda. what we have been able to do is with the u.s. government, with the u.s. congress here to remand this patriot act, and we have been successful. we're just waiting for the senate to return back to session to vote on this bill, and it should be removed by the end of the year. >> host: is that designation holding up any sort of arms transfers or any of the efforts you're talking about you need right now? >> guest: that we haven't necessarily heard anything, that the designation has directly affected the arms transfer to the kurds. but what has been happening is the kurds or the kurdistan region of iraq not being a sovereign country there is a title x of the u.s. state department that was passed by the congress that you could not provide weapons to a nonstate

actor or a nonsovereign country. and in this case what had to happen, and these arms transfers have to go through baghdad to make to it the kurdistan region of iraq. that has not happened, and it will not happen because the government in baghdad, as far as prime minister maliki has been in power, has for all matter he has cut off the budget. so now what we are doing is facilitating with other countries -- france, germany, canada, italy, united kingdom -- to see if through these cups we can get some of these arms transferred. but it's really unfortunate why we have to go through this when you have a friend, an ally in the region that has to go through all this process and pain for arms transfer. >> host: patrick is up next from pennsylvania on our line for democrats. good morning. >> caller: you know, mr. zebari is conveniently holding key information from the american people, and it's astonishing how the media narrative in the

united states is being massively manipulated particularly when it comes to the fact that the turkish government is directly behind isis, saudi arabia is directly behind isis. you don't have a five-mile-long convoy coming in from syria completely in a blitzkrieg military construct taking over the territory on this scale. mr. zebari is -- if there was any doubt that zebari and the kurdistan regional government is part of a, is part of a geopolitical power grab, all of this narrative -- particularly when you use the narratives of children being beheaded and the lies and the deceit and the manipulation of the american public -- who are turning around with our tax dollars and

underwriting a system of lies. everything -- >> host: mr. zebari, do you want to respond? >> guest: absolutely. i would encourage -- thank you for the call. i would encourage the caller to not necessarily watch the american immediate car or kurdish media, i would encourage you to countries. there are children being killed, women being beheaded within the isis rankings. as far as holding back any information, this is the reality they are facing. this is a threat not necessarily to the kurds or the region, but let's just look at the name of isil, levant. levant really covers jordan, turkey, iraq, syria, all the way up until tel aviv. if these guys get it their way, they're not going to stop anywhere. so as far as holding back any key information, i'm not sure

what information more i'd like to answer. but let me do say this, it's unfortunate that some of the support has been coming from outside of iraq and syria. and it's important that this support stops. because isis is nobody's friend. >> host: boring file clerk has a question on twitter. is the u.s. goal to defeat isis or just to keep your region free from them? >> guest: well, i think the goal is one and the same. the more territory they capture, the more emboldened they will become, the more wealth they will capture. isis, again, right now is regional. they're focused are primarily in syria and iraq, but that's not their aim. their aim is to go broader and gain more control over the region. so defeating isis, again, it's like a cancerous virus. it will spread to anywhere that it can get its hands on, and this has to be stopped sooner

than later. >> host: scoping key, illinois, is next. john on our line for republicans. good morning. >> caller: good morning, sir. what are they doing about syrian people in kurdistan now? >> host: say again? what's the question? >> guest: what kurdistan, they doing about people that live there now? >> guest: the asyrians are the christian community that's been living in the kurdistan region for hundreds and thousands of years. isis, when they made advances, when they captured mosul, they either captured those that were living, christians that were live anything mosul and gave them the ultimatum, you either convert, pay a hefty tax, or you face the sword. then later on up north they captured a lot of the other minority villages such as the ya sities, and what we have been doing is they've been under the protection of the kurdistan regional government's peshmerga

forces since 2003 toppling saddam hussein, and we have been asking the syrian community, the community to reach out to the united states, to reach out to their members of congress, to ask for support, ask for protection. we need more support from the u.s. government. in addition to what's already been taking place and make sure we give credit where it's due. so we are determined to protecting these minority groups. after this unrest, a lot of groups have been asking the western countries to be granted visas and asylum. while that's okay, but it's important that they also stay. this is their land, this is their heritage, this history, and they add a flavor to the rest of the society. we don't necessarily encourage all to leave. while we do encourage seeking opportunities in the west and other countries. but, again, we are determined to protecting them, syrians, ya sities and other minority groups. >> you've talked about the

immediate threats facing the kurdistan regional government. i want to talk more long term. is the end goal to have its own country? should iraq be split into separate countries? >> guest: i'm glad you asked that question, john. what has been happening in baghdad, we have been trying to become partners in baghdad, in the government in baghdad and part of this country and the society. the more, the more we try to work within the framework of the iraqi constitution, the more alien b nateed we became. alien alienated we became, the more disliked we became in baghdad under the leadership of prime minister maliki. and our leadership has come under intense pressure from the public on the ground asking them the following questions: why are we still part of a country that doesn't pay us a share of the revenue when we are entitled under the constitution entitled to? why are we not being protected? why are we being marginalized?

why can't we be part of a society or a government that we hope for -- why are we part of a country that we voted for a plural democratic and free market society? all of these that people had voted for didn't necessarily come to fruition. our leadership in the kurdistan region and our president under a lot of pressure, why are we still part of a country? but, again, it is in the heart and dreams of every kurd to have its own independent state one day. >> host: let's go to jay waiting in rockville, maryland, on our line for democrats. jay, good morning. >> caller: good morning. >> host: go ahead, jay. >> caller: i was wondering if the guest would say the u.s. has provided enough aid now. it sounds like there's a start on a representative government of the different regions and religious sects, you know, the subgroups of islam.

and we need to just be out of that country, i think, have no americans there. we're giving advice, give it by way of phone lines so that we don't feel compelled to go in something goes wrong and american lives are at risk, and let this man and the folks there sort out their own issues. thank you. >> host: mr. zebari. >> guest: in terms of enough aid, i'm assuming both, you're referring to both humanitarian and military aid. humanitarian aid, the demand and what's being received on the ground is a ratio of probably 1 to 10. what we need to be doing, right now u.n. is the main body or entity that's been operating on the ground. they are still in the assessing mode. because of the number of the influx of the idps and refugees coming in is so huge,

they're still assessing where to place them and what to do. while the government has been doing the brunt work of feeding people -- grunt work of feeding people three meals a day until more help arrives. in terms of military equipment as i referred to earlier, the right equipment hasn't necessarily been received. it hasn't gotten to the front lines where the peshmergas can go on and protect these people. in terms of boots on the ground we've always said and will continue to say, the peshmerga forces are the boots on the ground. we do not need booze on the ground. -- boots on the ground. we do not need to see them on the front lines. we will take care of the fighting. this is our land to take back, this is our people to protect. >> host: mobile, alabama's next. on our line for independents, good morning. >> caller: good morning. my comment is, first of all, i just don't buy any of the

propaganda that people are putting out there. the u.s. government, most of the reports that are coming from that area -- [inaudible] the united states government what's happening. kirkuk, irbil and the kurdistan area is where some of the oil and gas are located and the oil pipelines that run over toward turkey. that's the only reason that we're involved here. the other thing the kurds, if you look at what's written on your screens, they have already is set up a government up there. the kurds never wanted to be -- [inaudible] they already set up a government, and they had already getting the oil and selling the oil. if you remember two or three weeks ago, there was an oil-loaded ship that left from the kurdish area and ended up over in galveston, texas, against international law. in other words, the kurds were

just getting the oil and sending it on to the market -- >> host: i'm going to give mr. zebari a chance to jump in. >> guest: well, let's look at the -- and i'll come back directly to answer that question. what isis wants. why is it that they are now fighting the kurds and taking some of this key infrastructure in the country? this is their way of sustaining themselves. we have heard the reports that they are able to earn about a million dollars by taking the crude oil from inside iraq, taking it into syria, the areas that they control, doing a low quality refinery which is the best that they can do, bringing it back into iraq and selling it to the population because you always need fuel. on top of that, they've also got their hands on large swaths of the area, the fields where the wheat has grown which is about 40% of the country's wheat. and they are selling that wheat back to the people because people always need fuel and

bread and flour to make bread. this is why they have their eyes set on -- and caller is absolutely right -- on the kurdistan region. this is a legitimate regional government in place, democratic, that believes in democratic principles, much aligned with what we have here in this country, in the united states. and so for them to sustain themselves and continue to expand, they have to have resources and revenues coming in. and the kurdistan region absolutely has the lance armstrong oil reserves and gas reserves -- largest oil and gas reserves in the region, and if they can get their hands on this, this is their dream come true. absolutely continue to sustain themselves. >> host: got time left for a few more calls. e.b. in lynchburg, virginia, on our line for republicans. good morning. >> caller: am i on the air? >> host: yeah, e.b., go ahead. turn your tv down and go ahead with your question. >> caller: everybody knows that without any kind of aid, no army can function. so i understand that the isis is

getting monies from, like, they kidnap people, they rob banks, they get the monies from all kinds of ways, and as hong as that money keep -- as long as the that money keeps flowing, the nvc in north vietnam had enough supplies to defeat the west. when you don't cut off the supplies from any enemy, they can continue to fight. so as long as the money comes in, as long as they've got all the people from around the world, ideology in their mind, come on, let's kill americans, let's kill -- when they've got all that, you're never going to stop it. they'll just keep going on and on. >> host: mr. zebari, is the united states, is iraq, are the kurdish people doing enough to cut off the supplies that are fueling isis? >> guest: well, we're certainly doing everything we can in making sure that the -- [inaudible] some of this revenue is coming from is captured, is taken back. because, certainly, that doesn't help anybody besides strengthening isis themselves. but what the caller's referring

to, kidnapping and offering a ransom and then you go and capture, some of my wife's open relatives were -- owntaú wife's own relatives were caught by isis. they asked for hefty amounts of money. the people put money forward and they were directed to six different places. at the end when they got the money they said to collect your human remains. they were promised that they would be -- it was a 16-year-old boy. of ransom was upwards $60,000. this is exactly some of the atrocities they are carrying out , and they continue to sustain themselves. as is why isis has to be stopped. it is not just a threat to the region but to the international community. host: a question on twitter, why can't the countries in that region form a coalition and consider isis a threat? you cannot necessarily

create an army that is effective, highly mobile and keep will in a matter of 10 years. saddam was in power for nearly three decades throughout the 1980's, 1990's, 2000. he massacred our people, the downgraded the institutions. there is a country where you are basically starting from zero, and the country itself is very rich in natural resources. it is capable of doing the work required, but we need continued support from the u.s. and other allied forces. host: dave is in waiting, illinois. you are on the line with karwan zebari of the kurdistan regional government here in the united states. caller: i have one question. if the kurds are considered our close allies, why are we not giving them the support and the

means to fight isis so we do not have to put ground troops out , when we can give them the necessary means to put for us, when they live there? the point we have been making in washington and in other places around the world. host: who are you making it too, here in d.c.? to the administration, congress, former officials of the u.s. government, certainly, pentagon. we are the boots on the ground, we will do the fighting. we will take care of this, but we need the means do so. -- as ifortunate that gettingrlier, this equipment -- it has to be disbursed through baghdad a red baghdad has been unwilling to do

that. it is unfortunate that we have to go buy this when you have people on the ground, capable pershmerga forces that will be doing the fighting. forces are loyal to this cause. we need to take this land back and eliminate this threat. is in carrollton, georgia. on the line for democrats. caller: good morning. i am so sorry that we had gone off the rails there on 9/11. the whole country went off the rails. that is why some of your people became terrorists, but not. anyway, i have a question about reserves.d the oil region?am in your

reserves you have, i think that answers the question why you cannot become an independent state, which i think you should be. thank you for the call. it is nowf the dam, for the most part in pershmerga forces control. about 14 air strikes that took place yesterday from the u.s.. there are no more isis militants left in the vicinity of the infrastructure. however, they have set up some booby-traps and barrels hold of explosives -- full of explosives that will blow up. are is why pershmerga slowly moving in with some of this technology to detect some of these mines and booby-traps, to make sure they are not set off.

explosives could threaten the infrastructure and the safety of the dam and gates. if that is blown, that could be catastrophic down the road. that is why pershmerga forces are moving in. that originally belonged to the kurdistan charges, but saddam hussein drove the kurds out. there was an article in the iraqi constitution that calls for a referendum. but that article was also held hostage under the leadership of al-maliki. in terms of the oil, the whole region is very rich in natural resources, oil, gas, and other minerals. this is why isis has made the region their target. not only that, there are

american diplomats and businesses and investors on the ground that they would like to go faster. that is why it is critical that we continue to receive the means that we need to push back on isis offenses. host: that is all the time we have in this segment. i want to thank karwan zebari

they can determine on their own and maybe get it right this time that their gmo seeds and the crops that they produce are safe. now, it turns out that that

basic sentence which is, in fact, the basis for the u.s. policy overseas, it's for the state department, etc., etc., it was a lie. it was complete fiction. we didn't know about it in 1992, but we knew about it in 1999 because 44,000 secret internal memos from the fda were forced into the public domain from a lawsuit. not only were they aware that gmos were significantly different, it was the overwhelming consensus among their own scientists that they were different and of high risk. >> next, a lookback at lyndon johnson's great society and its effect on education in the u.s. from today's "washington journal," this round table discussion is just over 50 minutes. >> host: and every day this week we'll take some time to focus on a different component of the great society that presidentn

lyndon john soften laid out hisy vision for 50 years ago. today we'll focus on educationa and specifically the elementary and secondary education act ofci 1965. here's president johnson talking about the need to improve education in his now-famous great society speech from 1964 at the university of michigan. iw famous speech from 1964 at the university of michigan. place great society is a where every child can find knowledge to enrich his mind. and if we cannot educate today's 1970, what will we do in when elementary school enrollment will be 5 million greater than 1960? and high school enrollment will rise by 5 million? and college enrollment will increase by more than 3 million? and many places, classrooms are overcrowded. and curricula are outdated.

most of our qualified teachers are underpaid, and many of our pay teachers are underqualified. [applause] so we must give every child a place to sit and a teacher to learn from. poverty must not be a bar to learning must offer an escape from poverty. [applause] but more classrooms and more teachers are not enough. we must seek an educational system which grows in excellence , as it grows in size. host: >> host: joining us in this segment today is darlene opfer of the rapid education and ulrich boser, senior fellow at the center for american

progress. before the elementary and secondary education act which we're going to be talking about today, can you describe what education was like in america? >> guest: sure. i mean, education was much different. it was much more localized. johnson signed the bill in 1965, and it really revolutionized education as we know it. it dramatically changed our nation's education system. for the first time, the federal government decided -- excuse me, for the first time the federal government began funding high poverty schools to try and equalize the gap. and so what we see more broadly is that this is part of the president's goal of a war on poverty. this is a program that was cousins to medicare, medicaid and expanded social security. >> host: and, ms. opfer, what were the major components of the act that we're talking about today? >> guest: well, certainly aid to children in poverty, so part of the act specifically targeted child benefit in the way that

the funding was given to localities. so children in poverty received more money as a way to close the achievement gap and raise achievement for those in poverty. >> host: and one of the other goals of the elementary and secondary education act was to lessen the achievement gap, which you said, but also to forbid the establishment of a national curriculum. can you explain what was meant by that? >> guest: sure. i mean, at the time there was some resistance to the act and the notion that the federal government would take over education which had been for many years and pretty much the during the history of our country a local, under local control. and so as part of passing the act, it was specifically stated that the federal government wouldn't control curriculum, and that would remain in local hands. and while there was no establishment of a national curriculum, a provision that forbid the establishment of a

national curriculum in that act, what it did do is achievement for schools. can you talk about those standard for achievement. >> guest: so the law has changed a lot over the years, but the original law was in some ways very simple. it set up a formula that gave additional funds to local school systems, and it was really targeted to low income students, right? this was very important to johnson himself when he signed the law. he went to his hometown in texas, and he talked about how he grew up, that his father was a tenant farmer, and he really wanted to underscore this message that these funds should go to low income students to help them succeed, to help them get out of poverty or what johnson said right there when he signed the law, that this law should be a bridge that will close the gap between helplessness and hope. and the law has changed a lot over the years. additional standards have been added onto it.

it's been rewritten, it's evolved to include more of what you just spoke about, these standards, these assessments. but by and large, people view the original law as a success. just consider the test scores of hispanic middle schoolers. those have risen by 25 points, that equal to two years' worth of learning since 1975. so johnson's original vision for the law, i think, has really paid off today. >> host: some stats that we showed for how viewers, for our aid owe listeners -- radio listeners, in the 1980s, the federal government spent less than $150 per elementary and high school student, in 2011, $1600. in 2008 64% of undergraduates were receiving some form of federal financial assistance. as we talk about the elementary and secondary education act of 1965, we're splitting our phone lines up a little bit differently this morning if you have questions or comments. parents can call at

202-585-3880. teachers, 202-585-3881. and all others, phone lines are 202-558-3882. darlene opfer of rand education, would you agree with the success of this act? >> guest: um, i think i'd probably be a little more measured in my assessment of it. on the one hand, it certainly brought federal attention to education in a way that never was before. but the act has not always gone smoothly over time, and so there's a period of time in the '80s where funding was significantly cut. so some of the impact it could have had may have been more had we sustained the financing to it and also paid a little more attention to implementation on the ground. but i think generally it's been successful, it just hasn't been as successful as it could have been. >> host: in what ways do you

mean paying better attention to the implementation? >> guest: well, you know, when the act first started out, it was primarily about financing, and we weren't really paying attention to what schools were doing with the money. the money needed to go to children in poverty, but we assumed that schools understood what they needed to do to educate children in poverty, and i think now with many years in hindsight, we probably know that they didn't always understand what needed to be done. and so we didn't pay as much attention to the processes of education. it was mostly about increasing inputs. and i think we need to pay attention to the processes as well as the inputs to achieve the kind of outcomes we want. >> host: ulrich boser, would you agree? >> guest: yeah. i think we have to discuss what the law was in 1965. i think darlene's absolutely right. this was a law that was about financing. and the reason in some ways is simple. we know back then in 1965, and we know today, that many high poverty school systems get less

than their fair share of dollars. you take a look in chicago where in the wealthier, leafier suburbs school districts get twice as much money as those school systems in the inner city. so we need to make sure that money is at the core of this education debate, but we need to understand that money alone isn't enough, right? we need to make sure that there are programs, policies in place that are thoughtful. and that conversation has evolved over time. esea has turned into no child left behind, and we've also seen other education reforms, race to the top, common core, that's played a clear role in the national education debate. >> host: darlene opfer, can you talk about the transition of the esea and the it rayings of -- iterations of this act along the way? >> guest: sure. i think the shift from input focus the output focus happened, actually, under george w. bush

when he brought all the governors together in charlottesville, virginia. they talked about the importance of and education the need for standards and to raise standards and the quality of education. and that really started a conversation leading to goals 2000 under clinton and that was then picked up again under george w.h. bush with no child left behind. so we saw a sort of transition from focusing on giving more inputs to sort of thinking what do we expect from education, what are the kind of outcomes we want and how do we get them? and so the law changed as a way to focus more on holding localities accountable for the outcomes rather than just looking at how they're spending the inputs. >> host: so one of our viewers on twitter watched that johnson speech and wrote: our classrooms are still overcrowded, the curriculum outdated, teachers underpaid one and qualified. what exactly changed? what would be your response? >> guest: well, i think a lot of things changed in the sense that, you know, we have a focus

on serving all chirp that we didn't have -- children that we didn't have prior to the act. there were a lot of children not being served and not being served well. it certainly focuses on issues of civil rights, so i think there were some who would argue that were it not for eses, we would not have desegregation of schools because that allows the federal government to put pressure on states and localities to do that. so while the act may not have changed the way people perceive and education the way they think it's going in terms of quality today, it had a lot of influence on the way we think about how we should serve all chirp. >> host: mr. boser, would you agree? >> guest: i'd agree, and i'd add a few points. one, we have seen some clear results. it's difficult to say the law caused these results, but when you look over the last 30 years, graduation rates have been ticking upwards, the achievement gap has narrowed. when we look at the achievement of fourth grade african-american students, they've clearly been picking upwards in math.

so i think there are really some very promising things, some clear results that beck say came out of esea. and at the same time, we have to say what would have happened had this knot been in place? look in new york city today. on average, each student gets around $3,000 in additional federal funds. that goes to pay for some really important things, things that are related to instruction; reducing class size, buying textbooks, extending the school day. without those, without those funds where would those students be today? and it's important to recognize the federal role here. we need to recognize that these funds are additional to what states and districts are doing because, ultimately, it's states and districts that are responsible. so no doubt the words of johnson still echo today whether they were around teachers or about school classrooms being too crowded. i mean, the fact is in many ways we just simply have not done enough.

>> host: as part of our series focusing on the 50th anniversary of the great society, we're taking your calls and comments on the elementary and secondary education act of 1965 and how it's impacted the classrooms today. we split up our lines for parents, teachers and all other. carol is calling in from boca raton, 'em florida. good morning. >> caller: well, good morning, john. i tweet ordinarily, but i just had to call this morning. i taught for 13 years in an urban or almost all-black school in nearby broward county. i left last year, and this'll be my second year that i can just watch c-span every morning. the state of education in our schools is abysmal. now -- and if you have a higher graduation rate, that's because we are compelled to pass kids. i was teaching kids my last

year, i was teaching seniors who couldn't read and write on a sixth grade level, but yet the pressure is upon you. it's all just a game. the kids are totally undies lipped, there's no discipline in most of the schools. you can't even get them now to put away their cell phones. it isn't the money. our school had plenty of money. it's how you spend the money. that's what's important. and if you can't teach kids who don't want to learn, you still have a 12th grade curriculum that you're supposed to teach. they don't care about english literature, they didn't care about grammar, they couldn't read. they were taking reading, john, in the 12th grade. most of them. when i went to school, we -- my school didn't even have reading when you got to high school. it was assumed you knew grammar and english. so you can't teach kids who don't want to learn and will tell you, you ain't -- girl, you

anticipate my mama, you ain't going to be telling me what to do. and then the boys said just give us the g-d-answers. >> host: we're going to let darlene and ulrich weigh in. what's your twitter handle? you say you tweet to the show. >> caller: it's at carol -- let's see, twitter is just carol -- [inaudible] @aol.com. that's carol calling in on our line, you can follow along with the conversation on twitter happening every day, and a lot of folks like carol who join in on that conversation every day. it's @c-spanwj. darlene opfer, let you address carol's question. >> guest: sure. she raises a couple of points that are part of the conversation right now which is how do we raise the quality of education? that's why we have been having a lot of conversation about

standards and preparing students for college and career readiness and what that means. i think part of it, though, also -- and this is referring back to the esea act -- you know, how do we help teachers and principals teach the kids that they have and teach them at the highest levels that we need them to? i mean, part of the esea act had a second title which was about teacher learning and teacher preparation, and i think it's part of the act that probably hasn't been made very much of. focusing more on how we help develop the capacity of teachers may address some of the problems that she's raised. >> host: john's up next calling in from new mexico on our line for parents. john, good morning. >> caller: good morning, john. thank you for the show. my son's a senior at rio rancho high school. he's in ap calculus, ap english, he's never had a job, there's just no employment for kids around here.

his grandfather works at the government labs forever, and i tell you what's wrong with kids these days, is there's no opportunity for 'em. i mean, when you show kids that their friends are getting out of high school, many times getting out of college and can't find work, you know, that's what brought us to new mexico is that i have family here. but there's no damn jobs unless you're in the government. and you wonder why kids aren't motivated, it's because the real world doesn't have shit -- >> host: apologize for the language. ulrich boser, let you address some of points he brings up. >> guest: sure. this is a debate that's been going on for a long time, the connection between education and jobs, the connection between education and economy. i think that's why the common core standards are so important, they're much more relevant to what students need to know and be able to do to succeed in the world of work today. they also raise expectations, and i think a what's really in

some ways deeply important about these standards is they do more than just teach students facts, they also teach how to think. so we need education reforms that help students get these jobs and, you know, really important, help students be competitive in the global economy. >> host: for those who may be knew to the -- new to the common core debate, can you explain what it is and the timing of it? >> guest: sure. the common core is a set of standards that were developed by the states, and they are in reading and in math. they're just beginning to -- they've been rolled out for a while, and now we're seeing some assessments and tests that are being attached to those standards, and they've been the headlines recently. some states have thought about leaving the standards. but generally, this has been a reform that many in the education reform community see as a really important way to improve the achievement of students. >> host: california lean opfer of rand education, your thoughts on common core. >> guest: yeah, i would agree with ulrich that this is a really promising move, the idea

that we have a set of standards that we can agree on that were well researched, that were developed by educators, that really raise the bar on what we expect for students. so i think the standards alone hold promise, but in order for them to achieve the promise again, we really need to pay attention to how they're rolled out in schools, how they're implemented, the kinds of supports that are given to teachers to be able to teach at what's actually quite a lie level -- high level, a level they probably weren't teaching at before. >> host: what would you say to those folks who are concerned that common core does what was forbidden in the elementary and secondary education act of 1965, forbidding the establishment of a national curriculum? >> guest: yeah. i think it's unfortunate that it's become politicized in that way because, as ulrich said, you know, this was an initiative by the states. it was governors that got together and their staff to come up with the standards. i think, you know, as the

department of ed started using it as part of the race to the top and the incentives saying if states adopt these standards and they get additional federal funds, it started to turn into something that looked federalized, but that was never the intent to begin with. >> guest: i want to just jump in here and draw a distinction between standards and curriculum. because they really are two very different things, and i think it's easy to get them confused. standards are just simply expecting what students should know and be able to do. when should they learn certain topics in math? when should they be learning algebra, addition? and curriculum is really something that needs to be developed by teachers, and that's things like, you know, textbooks, quizzes. and so what the standards do, the common core does it, is set out, what students should know and be able to do in a certain period of time, but it really leaves it up to local systems to develop that curriculum. so i just want to be clear that i don't see any evidence to suggest that the common core is

at all in conflict with esea which was correct in setting up in 1965 that there shouldn't be a national curriculum because there shouldn't be one. we need to leave it up to teachers themselves to have the flexibility, to have the autonomy to reach out to students in ways they know best. >> host: steve from new york, good morning. >> caller: i teach english as a second language in a middle school, public middle school, and i'm wondering what your people think there, your guests think. lbj would probably be rolling over in his grave if he saw the way common core has been implemented. because it did start out as a state project, but it was kind of overtaken by certain moneyed interests. what i mean is the governors approved it, the governors' association approved it, but who actually wrote it was a group of 27 people including only two

teachers. and those two teachers voted against the common core, yet it was implemented. >> host: ms. opfer. >> guest: yeah, i mean, i think, you know, there's a lot of discussion about how this happened. some of it, i think, is accurate, and some of it isn't. but i think if we ask educators, and there have been a number of surveys about the common core, that the majority of educators are in favor of them. they believe we need to have higher standards. the mathematics association of teachers, the english language association of teachers, those educators have looked at them and endorsed them. and so i think generally, you know, these standards have been accepted by teachers. >> host: got about a half hour left with our panel as we discuss the elementary and secondary education act of 1965 and what it's meant for the education system today. we've got lines for parents, teachers and all others. on the line for all others in south bend, indiana, is donald.

donald, good morning. >> caller: hi, good morning. you know, this is very important to me. and i tell ya, i have nieces and nephews in school, and this is an all hands on deck situation. i just want to ask a couple of quick questions. okay, this common core, i don't know much about it, but i think it's a good idea because critical thinking is very important. need to teach kids how to think for themselves. also i just want to know just quickly, the high school -- i think the high school situation needs to be revised. is there any talk about having them stop at grade ten and then from like heaven to twelve -- leaven to twelve they're -- eleven to twelve they're out in the world trying to get job skills, etc., etc. is there more emphasis on stuff like that? thank you, i'll listen.

>> host: mr. boser. if you want to take the comments and questions. >> guest: sure. just on the common core, the thing we have to kind in mind is that it's getting increasingly politicized. so just take a look at bobby jindal, governor of louisiana. when the common core was -- when he first took a look at the common core, when he saw it on paper, he thought it was a good idea, right? he thought that it was what was good for kids, what was good for kids in louisiana. but then the political winds shifted, and now bobby gin has been trying -- bobby jindal has been trying to pull out of the common core, and he's done so because i think he's no longer looking out for the best interests of students of louisiana, he's looking out for himself. we need to keep in mind there's good policy, and i believe that the common core is great policy, it's what's best for kids, but there's shifting political winds, and there are politicians out there who, i think, are looking at what's best for themselves. as to the caller's second point, i think it's a great one, and there have been developments to, just to reiterate, the caller

was asking, you know, are there movements to develop apprenticeship programs or help students really get kind of real world experience while still in high school. and we have seen some very innovative practices. this has been pushed by this administration, president -- excuse me, vice president biden has been very smart in talking about apprenticeship programs and also dual enrollment programs which allow students while they're still in high school to enroll in college. i think that's important for two reasons. one, it raises expectations for students which we know is very important, but it also keeps students motivated. it allows them to see real world application of their studies. >> host: and as we're going through this segment, if you want to see ulrich boser's work, go to the center for american progress web site, that's americanprogress.org, and darlene opfer is with rand education. that web site, rand.org. we'll go to jeff waiting in nebraska on our line for parents. jeff, good