more attention to education in the united states. in some of the boom industries, there is a problem finding sufficient training and community colleges. we are not devoting specific resources to supporting education and if it is coming to roost. >> host: let's go to michigan where amy is. >> caller: i have a simple question but i cannot figure it out. what part of our consumer spending, our debt, every time we whip out a credit card, how is that correlated to our

national debt? it is we the people so the national debt is our debt. what percentage or our personally-privately owned debt different than the percentage of national debt. >> host: take us through the definitions here. >> guest: the national debt refers to when referring to the government's budget. there are consumer debt measures out there and the federal reserve bank keeps track of that. you spend things on your credit card and they show up in consumer spending but another set of statistics address that issue and measure that. the financing is different than the spending which is what we measure. >> host: we have been talking about reports from the bea, how are businesses going to use the

reports in the coming weeks, months and years? >> guest: i don't know if they will use the data to make real-time decisions. in some ways it is just informative to tell us how we got to where we are today. there is a two year lag for the most part. business tends to be operating in a real-time bases. there is a lot for policy makers and center bankers trying to figure out how the national economy presents itself and how results vary across the united states. >> guest: and i know the statistics run only through 2 2 2012. we are trying it accelerate that and there is a lot of on the ground type reconnaissance. we are soliciting for comments and hopefully they are made more

timely and hopefully that is what we can do next year. >> host: bea.gov is where you can find the information you need. thank you both for coming by. >> you are watching c-span 2. created by america's cables companies. next, the house education and workforce committee holds a hearing thon the state of colle athletics. and later a meeting on brain injuries and football, hockey and other sports. >> next week, special primetime programming on the network. monday, from glasgow, a debate over scottish independence. and then the target on the irs of the conservative groups. and then a meeting on educating

children from backgrounds that need more help. then a discussion about school choice. and writer brian hope on his book how the poor can save capitalism. and then we talk to an author of a writer about neal armstrong. and a then a tour of simon and shchuester. and then monday the reconstruction era. tuesday the end of the world war ii. wednesday, the fall of the b berlin wall. thursday, a look how the view on war changed.

and then on friday, an event about the nasa moon landing. and call us and let us know what you think about our shows. e-mail or twitter as well. join the conversation. like us on facebook, following us on twitter. >> next; the house education and workforce committee hold as hearing on the state of college athletics. witnesses discuss a decision to allow college football players at northwestern university to unionize. this is two hours and 15 minutes.

>> a quorem being present the committee comes to order. good morning. i would like to begin by welcoming our guest and thanking the witnesses. college sports have become a favorite past time for millions of americans. filling out a bracket, tailgating or cheering on a team is just some of the ways. where fans are known for loyalty, students athletes are known for their passion and pursuit of different dreams. for the competing at the college level is a step toward a career in professional sports. for others, in fact most student athletes, playing sports is a ticket to an education that you

could not access without the scholarship. their dreams can be turned upside down by a sports-related injury. institutions must step up and provide the health care and academic support the students needs. more universities are doing that but some are not. no student athlete injured should be left behind because of the misused care. can the institution do more to protect the student? absolutely. they can let the students help shape the role and make sure it doesn't end a career and delivers the solution they need. student athletes deserve a determined effort to address concerns. does that mean unionizing student athletes is the answer?

absolutely not. president franklin roosevelt declared a better relationship between management and workers is why this act is signed. it is hard to think he would have applied this do college athletics. football players were ruled at northwestern university as employees and the ballots cast have been impounded pending review by the full board. given the track record of this mlrb, i suspect they will rubber stamp the original decision. in the meantime, people are looking for questions stemming from this unprecedented ruling. what issues would the college athletes raise at the table? would the union negotiate over

the length? if management is at an pass would students go to class? how would the students provide support to the union? would dues be deducted from the scholarship? how will students shoulder the cost of joining the union? where will the smaller schools find the cost to merge the two? a lot of universities are on thin ice and cost are soaring. are they ready to cut support to other programs like lacrosse or field hockey or raising tuition? are campuses prepared for unions

representing different programs? will students make an informed decision in joining a union in ten days while attending practice and class. these are tough questions and should be discussed before people are forces to make radical changes. forming a union isn't the answer. treating student athletes as something they are not is not the answer. the challenge should be addressed in a way that protects the higher education. it takes a different approach that makes it harder for students to access quality education. i urge the obama board to change the course and encourage key stakeholders to get to work. i recognize mr. george miller now for his opening remarks. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i am glad we are having a hearing to understand what is happening in college athletics

and air out the grievances. the days when student athletes were quote students unquote and when college sports was about team work, self discipline and sportsmanship with exercise and competition, those days are over in high level athletic programs. colleges and universities have perfected the art of monetizing athleteic play of their best teams while encroaching on the academic opportunities and created nothing less than a big sports empire that is consumed and driven by television and radio deals, coaches with seven figure salaries and television shows. they are units of production

over worked and encouraged to put their education on the back burner in favor of success on the field. some athletes figured this out and are asking smart questions. they want to know what happens if they suffer a catastrophic injury on the field with a life-time disability. will they lose their scholarship? how much health care will the family need to pay out of pocket? they are reading about new studies of head injuries and long-term effects and want to know if the coaches are doing all they can. will the decision be based on whether they are fit to play or the team's desire to win trump the concerns of the players. they are talking about restrictions that leave them with no support for out of pocket expenses they face. why are some of the teammates

finding themselves without money to eat or money for books but the university is making millions. they want to discuss a fair transfer policy. how can policies be changed to support the player's success in academics not just athletics. the national labor board division regarding northwestern university documents an all consuming demand of a football player in the ncaa world. at northwestern university the daily life of a football player revolves around preparation which is a 50-hour week with class time shoved in between. you can see it underneath the screen over there. players are expected to report to the training room by 6:15 for their medical checks. and by 7 a.m. team and position

meetings. pads and helmets till noon. at night they meet with coaches to review game films. there is agility drills, weight lifting, workouts and play books to study. from the beginning of the august training camp, 12-week season, post-season bowl up, winter warm ups, spring workouts and non-academic issues become the lives. the players worry about their health and financial and problems for jobs after education. the revenue is up 32% in the college sports and many universities are hiking fees and cutting services. so the super star football programs are making more and more money and the athletes they

depend on are getting less and less. this is a classic labor dispute. the hardest working system and the players left with little leverage. these athletes can win the kind of things union works demanded across the country. a say about avoiding serious injuries on the job. meaningful impact in how they will balance their work which is football. with their academic needs and other responsibilities and the respect and care they deserve. i look forward to hearing from the witnesses how we can protect and support the hard working employees. >> all committee members will submit records to be submitted

and it will stay open 14 days to allow articles and questions are submitted in the official hearing order. it is my pleasure to introduce the panel and in light of my failing voice and long resume i will be brief. ken star is the president and chancellor of baylor. we have a partner from chicago, illinois. andy shorts is from emory, california. and we have the director of athletics for stanford university. and we have the manager and director at madison partners and former minnesota viking. before i recognize you to provide your testimony, let me

remind everyone of the five-minute lighting system. you will have five minutes to give your testimony, the light is green. after four minutes it turns yellow and i would hope you would be look to wrapping up the testimony. when it turns red, wrap up as fast as you can. i have told witnesses before i loathe to gavel down a witness and we are hear to listen to you. i am less loathe to gavel the colleagues when we get into our questions but try to be respe respectful and wrap up the testimony. let's start with ken star. sir, you are recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. it is an honor to be here and discuss this very important issue for private higher

education. the chair kindly recognizes that i serve as president and chancellor at baylor. i served as president and ceo of baylor university since june of 2010. baylor is located in waco texas. it is a private christian university. it is ranked as a high research university and a vibrant community home to over 15,000 students including over 600 student athletes. baylor is a founding member of the big-12 conference established in 1994. we sponsor 19 varsity teams. we are blessed to have student athletes that succeed in the! classroom and on the playing field. baylor university has been the most successful division one program in combined winning percentage of football and men

and women's basketball. but these accomplishments do not count ultimately in terms of what we emphasis at baylor. we are celebrating our academic accomplishments as the commencement begins. we gathered together monday evening to do that: honor our student athletes performance in the classroom. during the prior academic year, 86% of senior student athletes at baylor received their undergraduate degrees and many went on to pursue advanced degrees. this past fall, the grades are not in for the spring, our student athletes achieved a gpa of 3.27. that is an all-time high. and 347 of our student athletes were made to the big-12

commissioner's honor roll. these are remarkable times for baylor and its program but even in the best of times college athletics, including at baylor, doesn't generate profits for baylor or the vast majority of institutes of education. the most recent decision in the northwestern university case is characterizing athletes as employees. this is a unprecedented ruling and misguided. the term student athletes is real on our campus and we would invite members to come to the campus. at the bottom, it is a relationship that provides a college education and beyond. at baylor student athletes are first and foremost students and

they are expected to be and required to be. we are far removed from a professional sports franchise. we are dedicated to each and every student's welfare including our student athletes. now, at baylor and across the nation, student athletes benefits fr-- benefit -- from a wide array of services. they contribute to their academic success. academic advising, degree planning, career counciling, many institutions including baylor provide high quality academic support like tutoring, computer labs and study lounges, and we have a study hall.

student athletes receive specific benefits that help them progress toward a degree completion and these benefits are familiar. what is the purpose? the purpose in offering financial assistance is to encourage students to carry on with their work. the legal issue of employee status is a matter of congressional intent. we agree with that. in this instance, the regional director has mechanically applied a test that is not withstanding the absence of congressional intent to include

college athletics as an employment venue. this create as dichotomy and the decision notes that northwestern university is non-sectarian. but they have been struggling with religious liberty limitations on its own jurisdiction. so we should expect some private-religious institutions to challenge the authority to regulate institutions grounded in a religious world view. the more significant disparity is the decision's implicit exclusion of state institutions and this will likely create many discrepancies. >> mr. livington, you are

recognized. >> good morning members of the committee and chairman. principles made for industrial setting can't be put on the private world. i support the decision on whether or not to form a labor unit, but the mrlb recognizes the problem of attempting to force the student university relationship into the traditional employee-employer framework. a university's primary mission is to educate students including student athletes. they are neither hired by a college or providing services for compensation. athletes and student participating in the programs with role as student and athlete, treating the participants as employees,

changes them from students. employee status conflicts with the remaining principles contain said in the act. consistent with labor agreements from other industries, they could negotiate over the scheduling time, and player time on the field and whether non-bargain players have the right to walk on. they could negotiate academic standards including minimum grade point averages, number of classes they must attend, the number of papers in a course and potentially graduation requirements. unlike statutory requirements a

college can't bargain over changes to its own conference and ncaa rules. the conditions in which teams practice and compete will guarantee competitive imbalances. they may organize an appropriate bargaining unit but the most appropriate. a petition for a unit is considered appropriate unless a larger group shares a community of interest with that group a college would have difficulty proving the remainder of the football team seeks an overwhelming community of interest if they look to represent just the offense, perhaps just quarterbacks. different rules among one team are modest compared to what will happen when college teams work under different work rules

negotiated with unions. every team is a private employer in professional supports and is covered under a collective bargaining agreement. those agreements provide a relatively level playing field with salary caps, minimum wage progression, drug testing protocols and revenue sharing. unlike professional leagues, the same isn't true in college football because it is limited to private employers so creating rules at 17%. fewer than 15% of the participants. it will not apply to the 80% of universities governored by state law.

some regulate collective bargaining. others eliminate it to subjects or types of employees. other states have no laws or prohibit public sector bargaining tomorrow. a bill before ohio's house of representative clairifclarifys student athletes are not employees and other legislation is coming out saying their college players are employees. every college team will be employee athletes. athletic departments maybe able to hire the best players. student athletes roles will create competitive imbalances.

the national labor act isn't an appropriate platform to address concerns with universities or conferences or the ncaa. for these, making the student athletes as employees is not workable. mr. chairman and members of the committee, i thank you for the tune to share my thoughts with you today. >> thank you. mr. schartz you are recognized. >> thank you for allowing me to testify on these issues related to college football. i am an economist who specializes in anti-trust. i am testifying today on by own behalf. as the committees know, the committee authorized an election for the northwestern university. i want to provide facts. scholarship athletes at

northwestern university devote 40-60 hours during a five month season and 15-20 for the rest of the year. they don't get academic credit, not supervised and football isn't part of their undergraduate majors. i want to explain the biggest threat to college football from collective action is the price fixing car tell of the ncaa. 351 division one schools, including stanford, stifle healthy competition to impose limits on all forms of athlete compensation. college football is a poplar product generating passion from fans and billions for schools from broadcast and merchendise.

individual athletic departments regularly generate more revenue than all nhl and nba teams almost. miles brand explained that maximizing revenue was the only responsible path for college sports. that is how a vibrant business should behave. but there is an economic dark side and that is price fixing. the anti-trust laws work together to ensure that when sport leagues and athletes form partnerships negotiations are fair. given the one-sided power imposed by collusion it isn't surprised players turned to labor law and unionization for a modicum of power. others involve a league

negotiati negotiating for an outcome. in 2011, the nfl sought to lose their union but the nfl went to court and demand they remain an union against the player's wishes. i focus on the market value, but they are focused on the education safety, better medical coverage, reducing head trauma, improving graduation rates and trust funds to make sure athletes can finish their degrees. because anita haidary -- because most athletes don't go on to work in the nfl, they deny people of their four best sports earning years of their entire career. money that would go to male athletes is instead funneled to

coaches and elaborate recruiting. football coaches make as much as $7 million a year. and deny woman of title nine matching funds. it shifts the burden from a private school to pel grants, foot stamps or forcing students to leave school to support their families. it exempts to tuition portion of scholarships and tuition remission paid to university employees as part of a bigger package. nothing in the ruling should change that and if it did congress has the power to make sure it doesn't happen. there is a centrally planned one-size-fits-all product here. the term student athletes was created to dodge legal responsibilities for athletes' safety and avoid economic competition. but the resources from new tv

deals alone are sufficient for a transition from a command and control economy to a market based one. mish until that right is supported for college athletes they will keep bargain. they are wanting to make sure they are well fed, given access to all of the programs at the school, and programs that reduce head trauma or life-long disability. that is better than a hungry athlete forced into a dead end major. thank you for your time. >> chairman klein, ranking member miller, i am pleased to be here to talk about the comments from the student athletes at sanford. they are specific to sanford and not regarding the case in the

labor board. but i hope to eluminate the larger issues you are talking about today. the university is recognized internationally for its academic quality. we have 36 varsity sports. 900 students participate in college sports. 53% men and 47% women. we are proud of the achievements of our student athletes but i want to emphasis that in athletics we never want to tee them not get a degree. 97% of student athletes achieve this goal and 93% of football

players. we are separate and apart from the athletic division. 1-8 undergradate students are sport players. they have the same examined schedules and degree completion requirements. the rigor begins with the admissions process. stanford doesn't admit anyone they are not sure can succeed at the university. they look at the academic excellence, vitality and what each person brings to the table. our student athletes demonstrate how importantly they view a san

stanford education as taking two steps to take it. the andrew luck from the colts and another player by passed the community to leave stanford in their last year. instead they remained to complete their degree. even among the few student athletes who don't complete a degree to go play, many come back later. the majority of student athletes don't go on to learn a libing in supports but the path they take provides them with success in the world. the grounding is solid and the sports teaches leadership, team dynamics, problem solvings and other things critical to success. i express things more in the written testimony before you. i want to talk about how revenue from athletics is used.

men's football and basketball generate sales from tickets but the vast majority don't. all of the revenue from the supports is used to support h had -- the -- overall program. we use the revenues to support opportunities for the broad cross section of our students. providing the opportunities is important to us. let me close with addressing the needs of student athletes. we work hard to make sure academics are excellent and supports. we have variety of avenues for doing this. many of the issues that have been identified by the union seeking to represent the students are being represented at stanford. we are always open to making improvments within our purview

and working the ncaa to improve rules on issues like minimum academic progress and scholarships that include fair stipends for student's expenses. i recognize that there is a variation on the issues from school to school and while i am speaking about stanford there maybe differences at other institutions. stanford is ready to work with and talk to others interested in continuing to improve the student athlete experience across the country. >> thank you. >> thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and present my views on the ongoing quest to improve the environment for student athletes on college campuses. before i do so, i would like to make it clear my comments are my own. although i was a student athlete at the university of notre dame

and later obtained a masters from the school of management at northwestern university i don't speak for or represent these institutions. i speak only for myself. i graduated from the university of notre dame in 1989 with a bachelor of science in biology and getting a second degree in mechanical engineering. i played four years of varsity football and played on varsity baseball team. i transferred from yale at the beginning of my sophomore year and had a fifth year of academic availability affording me the opportunity to complete my second degree. i transferred to notre dame to pursue the classroom and the football field and felt notre dame offered we the opportunity to do both. it wasn't easy but it was

achievable. we have a daughter who is a college student athlete there and i have witnesses further improvements in the program such as study hall is mandatory now for incoming athletes. i am here as a former athlete. i am not an attorney versed in legal law and i will use the legal experts to my right. we are talk about the director's ruling that college athletes are deemed employees and they would be able to unionize under the national labor act. this is a means to an end, a vehic vehic vehicle. i believe there is little debate about this logical improvements that i will describe. i think today should be focused on seeking an effective vehicle.

employees make the system more of a business and gravitate college athletics toward a model. i worry about being deemed an employee. with that, i support many of the goals of the national college players association and the college athletes players association that the ranking member described in front. i favor mandated four-year scholarships, health insurance and stipends. four year scholarship. you should be able to maintain a

scholarship for at least four, debatable five years, from the date you entered college assuming you maintain the academic and disciplinary starboa standards. the obligation should be maintained regardless of how you do on the field or sustain an injury. the sad thing is if they are not performing on the field their scholarship may not be renewed. so they have a hard time striking the right balance on field and classroom. after sustaining an injury, a student's athlete scholarship shouldn't be eliminated. student athletes with permanent

injuries should get health care and benefits for life. and all college athletic programs should enhance their efforts to minimize the traumatic brain injuries. stipe stipends. student athletes should be given stipends so they can handle out of pocket expenses at the very least on a needs-based assessment. transfer. if four-year scholarships are m mandated not at the option of the colleges i am okay with the transfer restrictions. i was in eligible for my sophomore year at notre dame so i was in this. but the no-time penalty option should be afforded to all student athletes, not just select supports. so these initiatives are needed improvements. the first three i understand are

difficult for programs in the red but i believe there is money in the system for things that have been highlighted. the college association is quote dedicated to save guarding the athletes and equipping them with the skills they need to succeed in the classroom and throughout life. if this is true why haven't the goals been implemented? i believe the problem exist because of the fact the ncaa is a membership driven organization made up of colleges and universities and affiliated groups. perhaps because of the charter it appears the ncaa may not have been able to get agreement from the diverse membership on the issues. i don't have a solution but i question the need to unionize to

effect the initiatives. it is difficult to maintain we have an athletic system given the low graderation rate i was a student athlete at the university of notre dame. i wasn't an employee. i played six years of professional football including thee here for the red skins where i was an employee and wanted to be one. thank you. i am pleased to answer any questions you have. >> thank you. thank you all of the witnesses. a panel of true experts. because you are on a roll, i will start with you. a guy from st. paul and went on

to do all of this. we are proud of you. at notre dame, you were part of a national championship team and i am disappointed you could not help the vikings be a super bowl team. you mentioned your daughter is playing lacrosse at notre dame. watching her experience and your experience, i am wondering if you were ever discouraged at notre dame from taking a class or pursue a major because you were a student athlete? >> i wasn't. i think they encouraged us to pursue our academic passions. >> and you moved within from a bachelor in biology which i also found useless. if you -- i think probably most of us on this panel, i cannot speak for everybody on both

sides, but you mentioned a lot of issues that could be and should be addressed: injuries, for example you had a list of things that ought to be looked at and your conclusion was that is something that the universities, notre dame and all of them including baylor and stanford ought to be addressing, and being a member of the union, the student athletes being a member of a union wouldn't help that? am i over stating it? >> i think stanford, notre dam dame -- it is an option to provide the scholarships. that is not universely adopted across the country. for a student athlete to not graduate with a degree in hand i think is a total disservice.

>> and ken star you mentioned 86%. talk about the graduation rates again quickly. >> 82% in the last year did in fact graduate and a number did go on to pursue advanced degrees as well. here is the key point. it is individual choice. what is the culture? that is the responsibility of the university. does the university create a culture that encourages the student to do the best that he or she can? there are obviously important issues to be addressed. we agree with that. we are part of that conversation that is nationwide with respect to what can we do better. we know things can be improved. especially the full cost of attendance. agree with that totally.

but the real question is are we going to in fact use the national labor relations act as a tool for negotiating improvements. the collective bargaining agreement or unit that was recognized for the regional director doesn't include the entire football teal. if you are a member of the team at northwestern university, the representative, isn't going to represent you. that is a fundamental issue. we are treating all of our student athletes the same and we want to encourage this culture of wanting you to go to school and earning your degree and helping you prepare for your journey in life.

>> and back to stanford. in your testimony, you talked about how football and basketball were money makers and that money went to the other sports. could you remind us of how that distribution goes? your microphone. >> the resources from the tv and media rights go back into the supporting 36 sports, which is one of the larger offerings around the country, but to enhance all of the 900 student athletes we support. we think that is very important. >> mr. miller? >> thank you, mr. chairman. i assume you were not calling for a larger bargaining unit. >> i appreciate that. >> it does raise the community of interest. i want to thank you mr. ilers for your testimony you testified in a straightforward manner

about the issues that the students at northwestern university are raising and they are endemic to the football programs around the country. and that is the security of their four-year scholarship as opposed to year to year. the health insurance when you are injured or suffered a disability as a result of that or lose your athletic ability and lose the scholarship. these are the issues the students wanted to find a union on because they are not getting satisfied. and around the country students feel caught up in a cog. they are there a sort period of

time and these needs are not being addressed. it is interesting that the other witnesses held their testimony that this is their belief this is a student athlete. the student athletes said about what about spending 50 hours a week? what security do we have? and that can never get addressed. and that brings me to you. if you read mr. livingston's testimony he can tell you why the work between the colleges and the media wouldn't be a shield against issues raised by the bargaining unit. they could travel all over and has them going to the academic side even. but that same network is used as a weapon against the athletes. >> that is right. >> that same network is used as

a weapon when they want to talk about the stipend being fair. they don't have a voice in that at all. and the school is happy to give you it but that is not every school in the league or even in the pac 12 maybe. you have to check with the conference and they are bound by the rules. today, what conference you get in. they are like commodities and moving them around to generate tv revenue. it isn't allegiance of fans or rivalry it is about what revenues are generated mid-week and weekend playoffs. you want to explain if you a handful of students in the northwestern university program how you will be heard and get results during your career? >> sure. if i could address a couple things. one thing i heard is baylor treats all of the athletes the

same and that is not true. walk-ons are prohibited from exceeding scholarships. there is a cap that tells the difference between scholarship athletes and others that would get athletes if the school could exercise free choice. the way i like to think about the claim that schools are poor in their athletic department is that it is similar to say like a wall street banker who brings in a salary and has been divorced twice so has alimony. once he is down paying for that there is not a lot of money and wal street banking doesn't play well. >> that is the point of the

night commission found in 2010. there is not enough money to provide scholarships or help the other sports but the escalating college salaries are creating unsustaining growth. $3 million into the coach's salary and more and more people are joining that paternity and you cannot take care of obligations campus wide. i think we see n 2ca constructed a network that is being used against these questions being raised. the prominent night commission that looked at the student athletes and that is why the students chose to become employees because they recognized the system they were in. thank you. >> i ask consent to submit for

the record a letter from the american council on education that warns treating students at athletes would quote are a range of consequences. >> i want to submit an article from the stanford daily. student athletes had access to easy records. >> both are entered in the record. dr. fox? >> thank you, mr. chairman and i want to thank you all of the witnesses here today. you have provided fascinating information to us and i am grateful to you. someone who spent a lot of time in education and higher education and dealt with student athletes and students who were not athletes so i appreciate the information. would you describe how baylor's atletic program work with the

academic programs to ensure student athletes can prioritize their studies while meeting their commitments to the team? >> one of the keys, dr. fox, is the planning process that goes into developing and so throughout the academic year there is a careful monitoring of that student's progress and if there is issues being identified and that is why we see a steady increase before my watch over the years. ...

>> let me come back to the regional directors opinion. he includes a list of restrictions placed on athletes. he says that they have to of getting permission from coaches before applying for outside employment, posting items on the internet, speaking to the media. they are also prohibited from using alcohol and drugs and engaging in gambling. this may sound like a silly question, but please do you place these restrictions on student athletes. >> it is, in fact, to create a

team culture and also to ensure as best we can appropriate behavior. dr. fox, when the student athlete arrives, he or she is presented with student athletic handbook and the early stages say here's the kind of behavior that is forbidden. because it reflects poorly on the university. it reflects poorly on the team and, frankly, it's destructive of the culture of the team. so yes, there are a number of prohibitions but they are all grounded in human experience. these are things student athletes should not be doing. >> some of those things none of the student should be doing, correct? >> that is correct. one of the things when you go through the battle shall not let us come it is, in fact, very, very comparable to that of any other student. there are some athletics specific activity, but it is, in fact, a tenured of rules that we were in committees together. these new rules that bind us a all.

>> i like to ask you this question, and then if mr. muir has an opportunity to respond to it also i would appreciate it. we know that the decision made by the nlrb gentlemen as obligations beyond the nl are a. it has applications for title ix of the education amendment to the 1972 workers compensation laws, tax law, fair labor standards act should all be obligated. would you tell us your thoughts on a possible implication of these laws for baylor and then mr. muir, for sanford? >> i think very suspicious with respect to title ix in particular. if the football scholarship student athletes are all employees and, in fact, it's going to create a very series issue in terms of imbalance with respect to what title ix requires. there'lthere would be a host ofr issues as well. entries are important.

we are very sensitive to that. therefore, the question will be triggered, does osha have jurisdiction in this context as well? i think all raised a hornets nest of issues. >> i believe if we go down that path, first and foremost our students are students first and want to ensure that many of the issues that northwestern student athletes raised our issues were covered at sanford. i think if we go down the path were eventually would call her students, student athletes employees and they just become a true working relationship, then i do think some of those things as title ix and making sure we provide a broad offering to all of her students becomes at risk. the pressures become greater. >> gentlelady's time has expired. mr. bishop. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. to our panel, thank you for your testimony. mr. eilers, particularly of want to thank you for your testimony

because you highlighted some of the issues that i want to talk about. you described the effort that northwestern as a means to an end. i think it's also fair to describe it as a cry for help. i think that we talk about having the student athletes interest at the center of what we do and die -- i was at a division ii school. but there's really nobody talking for the student. i think what's happening at northwestern is this is an effort to get somebody to listen. i want to address this to judge starr and to mr. muir. u-boats represent highly regarded, very prestigious institutions that have succeeded both on the athletic field and in the classroom. you both are members of very large conferences. i want to just go over what the players at northwestern are asking for. they're asking for efforts to minimize college athletes ranged from risks. they're asking to prevent

players from being docked thanks fortunate medical expenses. they're asking that educational opportunities for student athletes in good standing be protected. they're asking that universities be prohibited from using a permanent injury suffered during athletics as a reason to reduce or eliminate a scholarship. they're asking to establish and enforce uniform safety guidelines in all sports to help prevent serious injuries and avoidable death. and they're asking to read the punishment of college athletes that is not committed a crime. is there anyone on that list that i just mentioned that's unreasonable? is there any piece of that thatcher institution would say, no, i'm awful sorry, we can't do that, or let me phrase it positively. we could each be willing to lead an effort in your respective conferences to see to it that your fellow member institution say, absolutely, your absolute

the right. we are going to do it, it's the right thing to do. >> mr. bishop, i think that that the streets of questions, they are, in fact, important. they are legitimate. and we are, in fact, continually working toward addressing the. take the concussion policy. the ncaa does had a concussion policy and requires members, our conference requires it and we have a concussion policy. we continually monitor that. there's studies underway from the university of virginia, and the ncaa has directly funded a study, so this is a balding site. so yes, we want to -- >> here's my question. i'm sorry, i don't mean to be rude but i don't have five minutes. should we not, if unionization is as bad as so many of you think it is, should we not use this as a catalyst? not just talk about conversations and not just talk

about yes, we're looking at it, we are studying it. let's do it. you are very powerful institution in very powerful conferences that people look to for leadership. can you not just say, we're going to lead an effort to make this happen to? >> briefly, i believe it is happening. can we move more quickly? of course. you can always move more quickly but it is, in fact, a serious conversation. these ver very issues you writee rays are under serious review. it's not just a conversation. things are happening. ncaa, the cost of attendance for the division i -- >> my question is, in these conversations who is speaking for the student athletes? >> i would say there's a multitude of individuals speaking for the student athletes, putting the student athletes themselves. a number of our constituents both on and off campus both saying we need the student athletes voice. certainly we are being attentive to the. our presidents are at the table. they're constantly thinking

about this. they're trying to take leadership roles as you so mention. athletic directors, i was at an athletic directors been yesterday. this is a prominent discussion point because we do want to make sure the student athletes express is the best it possibly can be. >> let me say one last thing. i hope we can so collectively get to the point where we hold student athletes to the same, or tell coaches. a coach can break a contract with impunity. when you let -- i don't understand what it is that a coach can break a contract with impunity and a student athlete is penalized if you want to move from one institution to another institution that he thinks better services needs. mr. eilers, you want to comment on that? >> i think i can sit in my testimony, but i do think if you are, and i don't understand why we can't get there. people should go to college is to get degrees, first in almost.

-- first and foremost. it's made me who i am today, made me a better father, a better husband, a better person. a better businessperson. and so i would disagree with mr. schwartz characterization that it's separate and distinct from educational expense. i think it's into coal like any of those things and but we need to do is make sure that student athletes have the ability to go to an institution for four years and earn a degree. and leave with a degree. so if that's the case i would respectfully disagree that there should be some quid pro quo. that person should make a commitment to the coach to give them four years of service coming out of high school. each we don't do that though, then i would submit, what you're suggesting that we should allow people to then fool around if it should be equal. i want a two-way street to be equal for both parties. >> the gentleman's time has expired.

dr. roe. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. just declare that a couple of things mr. schwarz started with, full disclosure. the head basketball coach and athletic director were i went to college, dave lives, did both jobs for a long time to this is in the division i school. i'm absolutely committed to college athletics. i donated the money to build the athletic academic senate at the college. mr. schwarz, you point out about how much money, and i agree the ncaa is, but most don't live at that lofty level. i just pulled up on my ipad, most colleges lose money in athletics. they don't make money. a few of the big areas do, big schools do. at austin p. it's a $9 million budget, not $90 million. most schools at that level are struggling. i realize this unionization at a private you need -- university, not state.

student athletes, mr. bishop a couple things come you can transfer now without loss of time. if you transfer added to the level. you go from division i and division ii ordovician to a few conflict immediately. just to clarify that for everyone. judge starr, i think this ruling, what concerns me is, lease what i played sports it was fun. it sounds like some sort of drudgery is like golf is sometimes but for the most part sports are fun. that's why you play sports. and as mr. eilers clearly said, he added his experience as a student athlete and it made him a better, imagine very eloquently. i think that's what athletics, it did for me. i learned a lot on the playing field. i would've government and the classroom. i think it's added. you think this ruling could potentially cause schools just to drop football or sports? >> we have to consider all options in terms of the best

interests of the university. i know the president of the university of delaware has said, and he was a student athlete himself, that the university of delaware would not be able to continue. it's a public university so it is raising a host of serious questions. i think it could, in fact, at a minimum cost programmatic curtailment. it raises the issues we talked about under title nine, how do you achieve title mine? very important balance to achieve as a matter of policy and as a matter of law. it is simply the wrong way to go to address these very important issues. the number of questions that are raised are so negative. they are just remarkably wide-ranging. i don't think there's a real answer for most of these questions. the fair labor standards act is yet another. the antitrust laws themselves that were emphasized earlier. so it's bringing us into a sea of complete uncertainty.

>> i agree. excuse me, go ahead, anyone else a? >> the issue that mr. schwarz talked about in terms of protection for entire leagues when all belong under one collective bargaining agreement is absolutely correct for professional sports. that does not exist in college sports. the nlrb only would govern 17 out of the approximately 120 schools that play football. and so you end up with a potential arms race for those who can afford it and others as judge starr said may decide to make a decision to get rid of it. sports our competitive 17th of want to win are going to, you, pay their way up to win. >> i think if northwestern unionize as they will play 12 homecoming games i think is what they got to do. in the event student athletes unites and parties can agree on is a possible student athletes will strike a? >> traditional tool and

collective bargaining, and that itself raises not only just the idea, seems to be unthinkable that the football team goes on strike. what about the non-scholarship athletes? that is the incoherence of the collective bargaining agreement. does that mean they walk out of class? if there in -- if their employees than what is the relationship to the academic enterprise. >> mr. eilers, i'm going to give you the final comment. when i was in college the students were true student athletes. our quarterback had a 4.0 is a physics math major and their many people that use athletics to do what you've done to enhance, you are an incredibly athlete because you play professional football. i think your comments were spot on. that's the way we should look at it. a student athlete, you point out some students play in the band. and they practiced for hours. some go to rotc. they worked very hard, and drama

and other things. so i would give you the final say on this. >> actually the gentleman's time has expired. [laughter] brilliant timing. mr. gordon. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think, you know, listening to the testimony, most people i think would agree that what happened at northwestern was because the ncaa has created a vacuum in terms of students being treated fairly. if you look at the mission statement of the college athletes players association, one of the mission statements is to provide better due process in sanction actions. i represent the university of connecticut. we had a pretty exciting spring. shabazz napier made to incredible i think courageous comments during the course of the lead up to the tournament, number one, describing in a way that might be embarrassing to some, sometimes he went to bed hungry at night. that's because of the nickel and dime mickey mouse ncaa rules in

terms of defining what universities could provide to students. it was kind of almost comical to see him rush to announce a new rule on april 15, that has changed and reform that. of course, not because of what mr. napier said, but for a lot of us it seems at times the within the changes the ncaa is extra pressure. frankly, that's what i think this event at northwestern has kind of produce. we wouldn't be having this hearing to talk about the plight of students but for the actions of those students. frankly, there are other times when the sanctions process is far more pernicious than maybe missing a midnight snack. we look at what mr. napier said about the fact that this is what happens when you ban us. the due process, and i use that term loosely, that the ncaa engages in, unfortunately far too many times shoots the bystander in an effort to try to

comport with some measure of student athletes. at school was banned because of a cohort of students who are poor academic performance, and no one is going to dispute that. in 2007, not one player on the team was around at the university when those scores triggered a napier finding that with you for your look back period, and yet they found themselves in a situation where they were banned from postseason play because of a rule that makes absolute no sense. and by the way, other schools are doing a one and done system which, tried to explain that to the average person why that's okay and yet a student like shabazz napier is punished. he's going to graduate and a couple of weeks. he's getting his full degree. he's getting punished for something that somebody he never even knew was in school seven years earlier. that's where again i'm skeptical of the protections for students

who get swept up in this bizarre byzantine system of trying to comport with some definition of student athlete. with all due respect to the witnesses were here, i don't think the colleges and universities, because they have their own pressures in terms of not rocking the boat with the ncaa to really step up and provide real honest to god god advocacy for students who are getting swept up. terry jones third row back was disqualified a prayer because his mother took three small loans when he was a high school sophomore before he even went to baylor and yet he was punished later on in his college career because his mother was in desperate financial situation, took a short term loan from a couch. i'm sure no one wants to vouch for that but nonetheless, why would he get punished for that except for the ncaa's desperate attempt to try and somehow comport with the definition of student athlete? mr. schwarz, i guess women talk about treating people with

dignity, because that to me is what's so offensive about the way, you know, the ncaa has violate patient rights in that miami investigation. the power that they can exert again tramples on people's ability to even just a basic due process rights when the sanction hearings and investigations. i was wondering if you could put your comments in the context. >> sure. i think it is a great step the ncaa has started saying that this if a school wants to give an athlete a meal, they are allowed to. previously the individual choice was prohibited beyond a certain number of meals. that's the level of cartel control we see. you're exactly right that the issue is not whether a benevolent organization will deign to provide the people who bring value with some crumbs. it's a voice but it's advocacy. i don't know how often james brown is quoted in a, but if you think i don't want nobody to give me nothing, opened the door, i'll get it myself.

and that is effectively what the movement here is about. it's about saying give us some after. let is coming. it's an ncaa violation to comment and ask for money right now as an example. you get permanently banned. >> the gentleman's time has expired. i want to commend him, gentleman from connecticut, for getting a little without mentioning the basketball word. [laughter] mr. desjariais. >> thank you, mr. chairman. appreciate all of you being here today bringing us your expertise. i wanted to go to mr. livingstone first and ask a few questions. mr. livingstone, the nlrb regional director's decision in northwest applies solely to private universities because state universities, as, because state universities, ma universities and state government entities are excluded from nlra coverage. that means the decision only applies to universities in each

conference and division. however, state law applies to public colleges. what are the differences between state and federal laws regarding collective bargaining and mandatory subjects of bargaining and effort? >> there are a variety of differences. the states actually vary widely. the nlra as you know covers organizing rules, bargaining determinations come subjects of marketing and the right to engage in economic action. all those differ under various state laws. for example, some prohibit public sector bargaining it on. others permit borrowing but in limited terms. others don't have the right to engage in economic action. others would have interest arbitration. so you would have different subjects be negotiated by different groups in different collective bargaining agreements. ultimately, it would end up with individual bargaining on a level playing field. different terms and different contracts. then when those teams compete,

unlike in professional sports, you've got something that is simply don't think is workable. >> i think that's an important point. that is, that scholarship athletes do organize the union and universities will bargain over terms and conditions of employment and the parties are compelled to bargain over mandatory subjects of bargaining. what terms and conditions of employed are mandatory subjects of marketing? >> i appreciate the comments we've heard from everyone today about the need for college athletics to improve, improve the life of the student athlete. but whether it's the college athletes players association or any of the union, of course any of the and has the right to go ahead and organize. under the national relations act they could bargain about a wide right of thanks. the is wages, hours and other terms and conditions of employment. that's so broad that it would cover compensation, signing bonuses, retention bonuses,

hours of work. so in terms of schedules, potentially even class attendance. while our goals make a limited but no, if there eventually certified as an organization, based on member desires maybe they become greater. of course, any other wouldn't be limited to the goals we've heard today. >> in the event student athletes unionize, they'll pay dues to the union. where do these payments come from? >> the dues are an encouraging in matter. so how they decide to do it is up to them. but under section 302 of the labor management relations act, it is clear that an importan emn this case the university, can't pay. an employer would have to bargain over chekhov for example. that comes from wages. so were talking but wages in some form, the unions would have to answer that. kappa for any of the. >> we touched briefly earlier on

taxation, these universities and organizations are tax exempt if the student becomes an employer, are vague and subject to taxation? and if so does that affect pell grants, ability to get student loans? where do we go, how do we go down that road? >> you are beyond my area of expertise, but i do believelievt others perhaps can answer that question. question. >> to somebody else have a comment on that? >> well, section 61 of the internal revenue code has a very capacious definition of what is income. so if an individual is an employee, then very strong arguments, it's unsettled, obviously this is a new question but it's going to open a series questions about the entire range of services, including scholarship itself. there are issues presently with respect about a scholarship is treated. but if they are employees than its compensation and it is

presumptively taxable. >> if they are employees, and should be some they would have to pay taxes on it, i would presume that the goals of any scholarship negotiation, wage negotiations would be to increase that amount to take into account the tax consequences. >> thank you. i yield back. >> gentleman yields back. ms. fudge. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you all for being a today. want to make a couple comments about things i've heard in your early test my. i want to go back to something my colleague mr. courtney said. i happen to have attended ohio's university. i knew a lot of the football players when i was in school. this issue is a problem then. it is an issue today. so why has it not been taken care in more than 30 years? there is no reason for it. but for the courageous actions of these young men we would be talking about it today. i want to put that on the record. for you mr. livingstone, you talked about the ohio statehouse was determined that our athletes are not employees to just

because they said it doesn't make it so. these are the same people that want to restrict voting rights. just because they say that doesn't make it so. as will we do know a student athletes at scholarship athletes are treated different than those not on scholarship. we know it and we just a commitment not to pretend that there some difference. the restrictions they have and the time commitment is much different than students who are non-scholarship students. first question i'd really like to ask mr. schwarz. in your written test what you mentioned the level of profit be in aa -- ncaa's make it off its athletes. you know if any of the profit is dedicated anyway to providing health benefits to students of? >> some of it is. i mean, most on-field injuries, the media cost of the injury is covered. it's not required, but it is covered. long-term injuries that link typically are less likely to be

covered. so it's not always the case. >> could i had one quick thing? you mentioned jordan college there's been a problem of the cost of attendance. the reason there aren't cost attended stipend because the ncaa put them away in 1973. they have been claimed and talk about bring them back since making 73. in 1986 something was trying. they didn't has. in 2006 they did nasa. now they're saying it's coming real soon. there's been a long history of it come real soon. >> thank you. the ncaa also does one begin people to be able to make a living a little bit that they can as well. i was around when the whole scandal at ohio state happened about kids and selling their own shirts. the universities sell their shirts everyday. but the shirts they take off their back they can't sell. i will go to that when. i would like to ask mr. starr and mr. muir, what do your football and basketball coaches make in the? >> i don't have the number off the top of my head. it is substantial. it is a free market and so we

want to keep her coaches. we've had stability -- i can get those for you. >> i'm not at liberty to share the numbers. >> is it a secret? >> it's just something that we don't share at sanford. but at the same token -- >> thank you very that something wanted to ask you. >> i know the answer at baylor. 2.4 million, to put women and women's basketball coach made 1.3 million. at sanford the number is a published but into a published but in a published but into one year jim harbaugh seldom rose above the sanford searching that he made a little over $1 million. >> that very much. mr. starr, you mentioned earlier that the goal of attending a college or university is to obtain a degree. i'm assuming we agree on that point. >> yes. >> do you also realize for division i football athletes and men's basketball players, that the graduation rates across the board hover around 50%?

>> at baylor its high. at baylor its 62% for men's basketball team. but i could not agree more, ms. fudge. we need to create, special and men's basketball, but to a considerable degree and football as well, this culture of student athlete. it begins with the coaches, weekend with head coach. it the entire infrastructure has to be oriented towards that. the same time these are young men and young women who are making their own choices. they decide what's important for them. all we can do is create a culture of encouragement and of genuine support. >> thank you very much. i see my time is going out. i would your back, mr. chairman. thank you all. >> doctor buckshot, you're recognized. >> thank you much. i'll be brief. anyone can answer this question. do athletic scholarships give

potential academic opportunities to students who otherwise would not have been available to them because, surely based on their ability to play a sport? >> i would say the opportunity to attend an institution like sanford, to be afforded, to compete at the highest level as was get a quality education, we had less than 5% be admitted this past year. 40,000 applications. so what our coaches present young people with an opportunity to come and compete at sanford, it's a wonderful experience. i think our kids as soon as they get in the door understand and cherish the opportunity. and with the high graduation rate they understand their part of the fabric of the place. >> there's a significant opportunity for first generation college attendees. so it is a door opener. it has been historically but i believe the ncaa has said approximately 2% of student athletes who received scholarships are first generation. no one has attended college in

their family. so it's a great part of the american story. >> thank you. i just have a brief comment but i think we all here today people testifying and it was on both sides know that there are substantial issues we're discussing today. i'm hopeful this discussion will continue and make things better for and improvements to our college athletic system so that young people across the country can continue to compete. but also as many of you have outlined, more importantly have access to educational expense that helps them in their future careers and down the line. so with that i yield back. >> gentleman yields back. ms. bonamici. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. this is a very interesting hearing and i appreciate your expertise in all of the witnesses, who are here today. mr. eilers -- get i say your name correctly? >> yes. >> you talked about how the

debate should be about what is the best way to address the goal. i appreciate that. i know that some of my colleagues have mentioned the importance of addressing the goals of the college athlete has set out. i was reading an editorial that came out after the regional directors opinion that said that college sports establishment has brought this trouble on itself by not moving to address players legitimate grievances. obviously, the regional director found some differences between what northwestern is doing and what you described in your experience. and, of course, mr. muir and judge starr. i wanted to ask just a quick question. mr. eilers, you said you went, you have an mba but you're not erupted at northwestern to mr. livingston, do you happen to represent northwestern? >> i do not. >> i was just about that because we've for different expenses here and different facts about your colleges, like mr. muir,

what sanford is doing. but what would talk about is a decision that specific to northwestern. one of the things that the regional director found was that the scholarship players are identified and recruited in the first instance because of their football prowess and not because of academic achievement in high school. is that similar -- you're shaking your head. is that different from your express at sanford? >> that is definitely different. what i think about what her coaches are doing and identify young people to put two and -- potentially, sanford, the first process they have is making sure they can pass an emissions and make sure that they can enter school just like the general student. so we are weeding out individuals because if they don't have academic record, it doesn't matter whether athletic accomplishments are. if they are not able to, nor to meet the needs of ensuring that we're getting an education, that's not what happened.

>> trying to figure out from reading part of the regional directors opinion, what happens if a class, a player, a scholarship i wants to take because of his major, or i should say his or her major, because maybe this could be expanded to women's sports as well, what happens if that class conflicts with practice? what does the college to? >> when i attended practice what is your student athletes practicing, getting ready for competition, there's many times i'll see student, football athletes the silly walk off with you because they're attending a lab, attending a class. that comes first. >> and they are not penalized for that? >> they are not. those are kids who play on saturday as well. >> was that your express, mr. eilers? >> it was. there are sacrifices made. i took organic chemistry one summer between my sophomore and my junior year because of that fact of trying to take the labs.

i would only submit one additional item, which is i think what sanford has done is incredible in football and what they do on the academic front, publishing -- there was a brief moment in time before we ran into unfortunate game against alabama in the national championships, i was proud of alabama for having the highest graduation rate for football players as well as frequently being ranked in of what in the. so you can do both. >> it's interesting because the regional director i believe that that northwestern has 97% graduation rate for its players. which seems to be pretty high. i wanted to ask also about what happens during the recruitment process? i mentioned with the funny was about northwestern that they were recruited because of their football problems, but what happens during that process? how are the athletes made aware of all of the opportunities that are available to them?

how do they decide what they are considering during the consideration process? who informed them about whether they will lose their scholarship if they don't stay on the team? >> for still in terms of the recruitment process, i have personally seen what that process looks like and it includes a very thorough introduction, here's the academic support. they will meet people from the academic support staff. they will see and we tried to determine, their diagnostic testing issue done by the university but those in terms of any learning disability. so there's a very holistic introduction to the university as a whole. including the academic site. usually the parents or parent or loved one is there with the prospective student athlete. >> thank you. my time has expired or i yield back. >> mr. rokita. >> i thank the chair and the

gentlemen for your testimony today. i think from what i heard judge starr kind of come as you would being a former judge, kind of really clarify the issue. and that is, are we going to use the nlra as a vehicle for the improvements that you've all talked about today. i suspect no, i can imagine the authors of the law or intent of congress was, but let's export a little bit. mr. livingston, if the students were to strike for the athletic department or university were to lock the players out, like you have had a steel mill, let's say, greater collective bargaining process, with the students be able to attend class? >> that's an unanswered question that the only experience we will have is in professional sports were if the entire league that table goes on strike or is locked out.

>> that's professional sports. >> but in college because we don't have a we don't know what would happen. >> because college of classes and teachers and whatnot. >> would have to vacate their dorms? and have to leave class? those are unanswered questions. >> i'm answered by the law or the regulations or anything else. >> mr. muir, northwestern is in the big ten conference as you. along with two schools in indiana, one being produced in my district. let's say that northwestern students, student athletes were to unionize and proceed to either strike or be locked out. would that affect the rest of the conference? using her knowledge. >> not being at northwestern i don't know if it's appropriate for me to jump on that. >> ice age is using your express and knowledge what you think would happen? >> it would be difficult to continue to schedule and continue to have competition. >> if sanford were in a similar situation what would be the

affects? >> if that was the case were going dow down the path of sanfd might not opt to continue to compete at the level we are currently competing at. >> kind of to dr. roza point or comment he made earlier. my district also is st. joseph's college. proud to be a board member of. a division ii school. which if i understand what you can share scholarships at that level, between students and there's limited funds. again, experienced looking into your crystal ball will be the effect of division ii states with regard to the? >> again i'm not a legal expert but if this were, the students of division ii wanted to unionize as well, i think that would dramatically affect whether institutions can continue to offer, have these offerings, which is part of the fabric of higher education. i think intercollegiate athletics. that would be a shame if that all of a sudden changed. >> these questions and your answers continue to bring clarity to me that i don't think

this law was even intended. mr. livingston? >> me i had something? we're talking about scholarships as though there is a finite limit. the union would be able to bargain about the number and, of course, the value. so half scholarships versus full scholarships it's all subject to bargaining under the nlra. nlra. >> understood, thank you. judge starr, coming to you. we often talk about on this committee and in businesses across the nation and in union halls about the cost of unionization, the cost of bargaining, the cost of dues, et cetera, whether or not a union member should have to pay dues voluntarily or not have a choice and that. what do you think, in your experience and, we be the cost of unionization for the employer and the employees? can you estimate employer-employee cost of student athletes in your nice at baylor, for example? >> we've not punched through the

numbers enough to even come up with a reasonable estimate. what we do know is the whole idea of collective bargaining is, in fact, to increase the whole reservoir of duly agreed upon commitments by the employer. so i think part of the question is, what can we do outside the collective bargaining, which has never been contemplated before, that, in fact, improve student welfare? that's the ultimate policy question you've rightly focused on. that unionization process is just raising a host of questions that we can't answer today but we do know the cost will, in fact, go up including issues with respect to how is that student going to be treated as an employee in terms of taxation, medicare and the like. >> that's a segue into my last question and it is for you, judge starr. considering the world a jury, watching today people might get the impression that the acknowledgment that improvements

the debate is an acknowledgment that some was caught or that this just started as a reaction to this recent decision. can you give us evidence otherwise be your testimony of? >> i'm sorry, judge. the gentleman's time has expired. >> can the gentleman respond? >> the gentleman's time has expired. mr. scott. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. schwarz, in many cases the scholarship requires a student but in most cases speak with my disdain is until 2011, the ncaa mandated the scholarship could only be for one year whether schools wanted to point or not. if you stop playing during the course of the year you were allowed to continue for that year after which the scholarship would not be renewed. >> some colleges you get a scholarship and you can continue witwith the scholarship whetheru play or not, isn't that right? >> if you choose not to play

football, the schools have the option for the agreement to terminate the eight and even on a four year deal at the end of that year. >> you indicated the number of hours that had to be committed. is an athlete required to comply with that schedule? >> you know, in the nlrb come hearing the facts that came out that weren't controverted. i've heard mark emmert say similar things, 50 to 60 hour a week job. >> can a student ever be, before the ruling could a student ever be an employee of the college like if they work in the library or something like that? >> students are in place at universities all the time to sanford daily, the editor-in-chief i think makes about $45,000. football players -- >> in that case, use the student, is the status of a student, does not affect his status as an employee of? >> no. students employed are mutually exclusive concepts.

>> and the part-time job could be an essential part of the financial aid package to you've got a certain amount of the scholarship, we will make sure you get a part-time job at the library. that could be an essential part of -- >> my roommate -- [talking over each other] >> it's unlikely if you quit your job in the library you lose the rest of your scholarship. that would be unheard of, wouldn't? >> i think that's right. there are lots of ways that students outside of sports can be compensated. at sanford there was a class that required students to sell an app on facebook and to commercialize it was part of the requirements of the class. they got credit for doing that rather than being, you know, losing. >> is it possible that some student athletes would qualify as employees under this ruling and others not qualify? >> my understand is the ruling applies only to sbs football athletes who received scholarships.

>> what would've the difference be for those -- if you have a scholarship and just put a couple of hours a week and swimming a wrestling or some other sport that doesn't have a time commitment come is it possible you would be a student athlete and not an employee? >> i object to the term student athlete because it's a term of art designed to basically dodge legal agreements. it is a college athlete, i think college athletes are athletes because a good college and they play sports. >> it's possible some would qualify as employees and someone died. >> i think that's right. >> into the college wanted to avoid the union problems they could treat them like college students and the like employees, is that right? >> i'm not sure if i'm fully understanding but -- >> if you get a scholarship for the chess club or something, or band and not regard to put in these kinds of hours, you would be, i think what, a college

athlete. >> the reverse is true. the chess team has more rights than college athletes because the chess team could say i want a college scholarship that covers more than just the athletic scholarship. they have the right in the market to bargain. >> it's possible under this ruling that some would qualify as employees and others would not? >> i think that's correct. >> mr. eilers, you indicated issues of the right to scholarship, medical treatment, the right to minimize brain trauma and other situations like that. a union could engage these issues. if it's not the union, who would be in a position, in a bargaining position to engage these issues and other resources actually to do the research and make a presentation on behalf of the athletes?

>> mr. scott, as i said in my tests and, i don't have a solution. to me should be the ncaa and the member institutions. it's clear i think some, just to clarify what i think of some misconceptions. schools operate differently. at notre dame there is a specific instance of a scholarship athlete played football, decided after sophomore year not to play football anymore. we honored his scholarship. a graduate with a degree in four years from the university of notre dame. there may be other schools operate difficulty. our walk onto cleavages like the scholarship athletes. made at the university of iowa -- ohio state they were. so there needs to be an elevation of cross all i think college sports to make sure that we are delivering for the student. >> the gentleman's time has expired. mrs. brooks. >> thank you, thank you all for your testimony today. it's so very important to i'm the daughter of a high school football coach, and the mother

of a division i soccer graduate from xavier university, who suffered a serious concussion in high school in the last game of her high school career. and after wonderful medical treatment and proper healing, she went on to play for years of division i soccer. now, many parents in people who are helping these athletes get scholarships, which they all work so very hard in their lives to achieve those scholarships, parents abdicate for these young people for the students advocate. the student athlete advisory committee of the ncaa advocates. i would assume the president of the university's and representatives of each of the conferences that represent the ncaa on the board are advocates for these athletes. i would submit that there are many avenues to rectify the

problems. and our continued problems for college athletes. but these athletes make these choices as to which schools to attend. one thing we haven't talked about enough is the role of the coaches in all of this process. and the coaches who are employees of the university to report to the athletic director, who report to the college president who report to the board of trustees, what mechanisms are there in your universities for the students to voice their concerns with the coaches and the coaches to voice their concerns to the administration? i will start with you, judge starr. >> we do have at baylor and is frequently the case that there is a student athletic council. so these are student athletes themselves who come together to they are elected by their fellow student athletes. so they have direct access, not necessary to the coach of the catholic church. they can communicate to someone who was the faculty

representative to bring an academic perspective to bear in terms of the entire athletic program including reviewing specific cases. so you are right. there are numerous avenues for voices to be heard. the ncaa, the final thing i would say is the ncaa itself however believes that in its governance historically it has not done well in terms of assuring the student athlete voice. so there are reforms under way that i think will be adopted that will, in fact, that ensure that student athletes are there. >> thank you. mr. muir? >> with a number of opportunity to hear from our student athletes and from our coaches. the student athlete council at sanford, the cardinal council, i just met with them at my home two weeks ago. it's a chance to me to check in and hear their concerns and how are we doing. it's important to also we survey all coercive athletes after every season and provide feedback.

they can do it anonymously and we get information on just other experts is going to also the coaches have an open door policy. we look for that when we select our coaches and to properly shoot. we think we are one of the largest leadership development programs on our campus. that's another update for student athletes to engage. we have administered, counselors, tutors, all on united front to make sure the expense is the best they can possibly be. >> is it fair to say that your coaches in part are judged in their success is judged in part on the graduation rate of the athletes? >> we look at a number of things. we are looking at the graduation rates and whether doing in the classroom and what you doing to make sure they are solid citizens in the part of university fabric. >> i know there's always attention when student athletes have to leave and may miss classes or tests or labs and so forth. but as judge starr indicated, that our faculty representatives, and there has

to be the relationship with the faculty and the athletic department, does there not, in order to sure those students take the tests, that they get the proper reinforcement and in addition the study halls. i know my daughter, there were numerous study tables recordable student athletes in order to escheat -- en route to achieve certain gps. gpas but those were requirements that they must achieve a certain gpa to get out of the study operate are you for me without at notre dame? >> i am. it was a proactive iq was -- if you started you didn't perform what you got sent to study operate today everybody starts a study operate the only thing else i would say is i'm aware of institutions that aren't at the table but take academics and athletics sisley. their coaches do have provisions in the contract that if they don't graduate their student athletes, there are negative implications to their salary and to their career.

>> thank you. my time has expired. >> mr. tierney. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. thank the witnesses today. i'm impressed with the concern and the way you sort of agree with the concerns and goals of kappa agenda concerned about unionization. i want to point out these concerns existed for decades. so i wish you had an idea what you would do if he didn't unionize because it's fresh in. mr. schwarz, these are not new problems, audie? >> no, not at all. as i said, the issue of cost of attendance stipends has been around since 1973 when i collected for the ncaa to come away. >> i agree with my colleagues, as lots of advocates of the, different people but it hasn't been very effective. how is that going for you? the problem still exists. >> it's a one-sided discussion. >> there was a comment the college athlete has choices but what would you say to that?

>> i'm advocating for a much more free market opportunity but i think choice would be great. congressman brooks mentions to touch with the within have a choice about is the full package that they receive because the schools fix the price of what they offer. everyone offers the same thing so limited choice. >> the ncaa seems to have what, $3.2 billion in revenues. they can make decisions to make sure that number goes up but they can't address even five basic issues except to say that it's coming soon. >> the idea that this is a money-losing industry is incredible. if you look at a money-losing industry, you wouldn't see rising pay for employees. ..

>> if that aid is capped, which is now, and even the ncaa says they wish it were higher, a lifting of the cap on male athletes would result in matching funds. so the cap on men results in a cap on woman. >> under the principles of title

9, the amount of awards must be in the same rate of male and females. >> yes. >> but when i look at the data from the department of education website, it shows baylor spends 56 cents on male scholarships and 50 cents on woman. it should be 42 cents to men and 58 cents to woman. the department of education says if there is a discrepancy in one point you have explaining to do. i want you to explain the rates of men versus women. >> that is a dynamic and fluid process so it may change year to year. if there is in fact a disparity it has to be addressed. so we have to come forward with explanations on why there maybe

a temporary disparity. we created two new woman's sports with scholarships to address the prosperity. we have created equestrian and acrobatics and tumbling. >> you are saying you don't think this is year to year? are you saying that with knowledge or just guessing? >> i don't think the specifics of that specific disparity. that is information to me. the academic department, athletic department does have to focus on the title 9 compliance officer who reviews these things to determine whether -- >> i am just disturbed that the ncaa's answer to all of these issues is wait for the next decade and we might get around and even on the title 9 questions is we are working on that.

>> i agree and i have the same frustration. i would like to see this implemented. i didn't want to throw on the table but when i was a student athlete at notre dame preparing for michigan and class and i could not conceive threatening to strike or getting to the morning of the football game and not leaving the locker room. i don't think the student athlete needs that burden. but we have to get there. >> they need today take drastic action just to get it conversation started. >> the gentlemen's time has expired. >> thanks mr. chairman and for the panel for being here. i didn't participate in a revenue sport. i was in an olympic sport but wrestling for college and university for the time i did that was the best training for

life i ever had. and i did it out of the joy of the sport. i made it by choice. suffered four shoulder surgeries as a result of that in later years in life but i look back and i would do it all over again. i appreciate the aspect there has to be care taken and i respect what you said about that. and in your testimony, you state stanford has taken steps to cover medical cost for injuries, promote safety and research the effects of concussion. could you elaborate on those steps and are they consistent with ncaa rules? >> they are consistent with ncaa rules. our stanford medical team is doing a concussion study on football and lacrosse athletes. they said the research is going to be lengthy in time.

we cannot say here is how we prevent that from happening. but they are observing that and they have a mouthpiece they put in each student athlete that tracks where blows come from and that is an ongoing study and they are leading in that regard. across the board in terms of overall student welfare of the athletes, that is something we hold close and dear to us and important we try to enhance those as we move forward with the student athletes competing at this level. >> do the student athletes understand this? are they made aware of operations, considerations, and programs? >> they are the ones wearing the mouth pieces and getting educated on the risks involved and what the research that we are trying to do certainly. and there is a great discussion about what the future holds and that is something they engage in and i think it has been worth while to have this leadership

role. >> along that line that you state stanford takes steps to support scholarships for students who are made unable to pay because of medical reasons. >> we have three athletes that were not able to finish their senior year in competition and we still honor the scholarships and we have had had other athletes injured during the course of play and we still honor the scholarships and we will make sure that happens. >> what about baylor? >> same policy. we care for the student athletes and football players if they are injured then the scholarship continues. we think an injury sustained in

football post-graduation as well. >> notre dame as far as you know? >> pardon me. as far as i know notre dame is consistent with the other testimony. >> i would like you to comment as well. this year it appears the ncaa will revisit the stipend issue. we talked about that. what is the major concern from your perspective as an athletic director at a major private university? >> that is the issue out there. for each institution the cost is different and trying to figure out the exact number where we can try to be equitable and the other thing mentioned as well is the resources that would be necessary to provide that. not all schools are able to meet

that cost of attendance. it is a concern for them. or they will have to make other decisions and that is a difficult one and that is why we spent so many years trying to to figure it out and enhance the overall experience but it is difficult from school to school since there are so few making revenue that are able to far exceed their expenses. it makes it hard and difficult. i think we are making progress but it is going to take more time. >> and i would tell you my parents, i was lucky, they were able to give me out of pocket expense money when i was on scholarship at notre dame. my little brother was there and he became a college all-american and i played with him my last year with inbears. he came from a single-parent

family, went to volunteer tech high school and mom couldn't afford it. >> i had my first wrestling win at chicago vo tech. >> i am the former chancellor for the postsecondary education at alabama. don't hold that against me. i am also a former labor lawyer who represented numerous clients against the national relations act so this issue fascinates me. i have dealt with it both ways. this does have athletic programs and in fact we had a golfer at

faulkner community college in my district named bubba watson. he went on to university of georgia but started at the two-year college. we are proud of him and all of the athletes. the vast majority never do what bubba does but we hope they come and get a good education. you know when we are dealing with students in that environment they bring their life issues. they maybe students and they maybe athletes and they are young people and they have life issues and we have coaches and counselors that deal with them on stuff that happens on the field and off the field. you cannot take them a part. they just come together like that. and i guess what bothers me about this whole issue and i want to share the concerns i heard about the ncaa. i see that as a separate issue and i think we are trying to use the wrong tool to get at the

issues. what concerns me is that as students organize and we have to deal with a union representative instead of the student what does that do to the obligation and responsibility? i know you feel it from your institutions to deal with these student athletes with their life issues and the stuff that is not directly involved with whatever they are doing on the field? what does that do to that? >> i think it would be disruptive. you are absolutely right, congressman, that the relationship is a very individual relationship. it isn't just the coach and the coaching staff. it is the entire battery of support services and the tutor and the factalty members and the representative to the -- faculty -- counsel. at baylor we have a vibrant chapel program so it is the

spirit issue as well. chann channeling everything from 18-22 a set of labor laws seems to be artificial and arbitrary and not serving the ultimate interest of the individual athlete. >> do you have an opinion on that? >> i think about the relationship we build with young people and prior to college it is becoming sophomore and junior year of high school and once they are seniors. and that carries through. not only the 4-5 years on campus but we want them to have a relationship once they graduate and have a degree. that relationship so important to us and we do have student who have other issues that need to be dealt with and how do they cope and manage but they feel open and for the majority of them they are able to come from someone here whether it is a faculty member, coach, administrator and that is the

beauty of the college environment. i think it is important to keep in mind as we move forward and we noted there are many issues that need to be addressed. i think we will work our way to getting them done. it is always evolving. >> i would ask this question to the legal council here. you heard the advantage of people dealing with the student athletes on things that go far beyond what happens in their actual athletic work if that is what you call it in this environment is the nlra the right tool to deal with the issues that people seem to be with the ncaa? ncaa doesn't have anything to do with two-year colleges. if we start creating a bigger definition of employee it will affect a lot of people, not just people gobern governed by the ncaa.

>> that is a great question and one reason i don't think it applies. >> all employees have concern rights and the policies others talked about and based on recent decisions they would violate them. the coach is requiring players to be a facebook friend. the schools monitor facebook postings and prohibit interviews and that violates any employee. >> the gentlemen's time has expired. >> on my agenda it says we are to closing remarks so i will yield to the senior democratic member, mr. miller, for his closing remarks. >> thank you very much. i think this is a very important hearing. america is in the throes of

celebrating on a difficultly bases socially and economically every way possible entrepreneurs and those who take risks. the list of grieveiances that these players present -- grievances -- is a list players could have listed 5-10 years ago. they have not been dressed. the players are put on the issue of being on the edge all of the time. scholarship no scholarship. play or don't play. that is an interesting place to keep the employees you care about. i think they would play better if they had more certainty in their life. but the ncaa doesn't let you do that. you know you are not typical across the board of high stakes football in this country.

and we know the athletes are not typical and the fact is you are graduating people and you have clusters of athletes that go to concern classes for concern reasons and it may not apply toward the graduation so they are short but stay eligible by taking classess. we know the landscape. that is why the night commission was setup to look at the landscape. no easy critics out of the industry. but the fact of the matter is this landscape has changed dumad dramatically. i have been in congress long enough to know where there has been tough decisions you don't meet the college president you meet the college coach. and we know that the education journal, sports journals, shows are constantly debating this

question: who is the most powerful person on campus? the president or coach. we know all hell can be paid for the mishandling or firing of a coach. these concerns that these young men were willing to take the risk on exist on every campus whether or not you have the security of a scholarship, whether or not you will have health insurance, what is going to happen to your injuries, stipends and transfers. we have been over this. i think i held the first concussion hearings. this isn't proper for public discussion. this is a support. this is volunteers. people play. until they started seeing the extent of it damage done.

i worked with many nfl coaches and many nfl players and we could not get first base. i had coaches telling me documents are here. we know what is taking place. the player's association went to court and the rest is history. and that is just the beginning. the fact of the matter is the determination was made it was better it run the organization in the manner in which the owners wanted to run it than deal with these issues. it is changing the game. it changed the viewership and the way tv portrays it. they don't rerun the big hits because the audience knows that is damaging and there is consequences to that but before that was highlights. highlights are now liability. so we can have the crate of horribles here about what could happen if there was unionization. why don't you think about what would happen if you took care of

the problems of the student athletes and the universities were in control and not the conference. i understand there has to be rules and regulations. but you know we see arbitrary decisions made by the nc2a. i remember talking to sport's journalist about the issue. why are students who had nothing to do with fractions loosing the right to playoff games? if you think you are going to the nba or the nfl and you can't get into playoffs where everybody is focused on your performance -- that is a huge punishment. they are upholding their morality of football and showing they were tough on the school? they were tough on a bunch of students who were not there when the infraction took place. there is a lot to think about on the campuses. i see a lot of time about higher-ed and the approaches he take. and i think that you are here because you are leaders in this field.

you are not immune from this. this is a stanford daily. this is a list of easy classes. and the professors said it upped by attendance. glad it was on there. they major in eligibility. i guess the senate is going to hear from ms. william on north carolina. i think senator rockefeller is going to hear from this. and you know we have been through these scandals before. rail against the unionization, like the nfl and nba, you better address the problem. this is college sports. not n2ca. it is college sports. i appreciate. i stood on the sidelines and i was so proud and happened to be with a big donor of notre dame in los angeles and south bend. most exciting moment of my life.

i never knew it could be that noisy and i played a lot of football but not at that level. we know the influences here. i don't think you would treat the other students on campus like this. i think somebody better take control of the situation again. the president is loosing the say on campus. this is like the cab in comptom california, it is always coming but never arrives. i have been here 40 years and watched people blame and go

after the decisions which is a decision to join a union. a rational decision because there was no other outlet for them. no other outlet as they work for the people that proceed them. i would not be concerned about whether or not they are going to go out on the weekend. that is not the make-up of these young men. i remember talking to bobby knight when the networks decided they needed a mid-week game and now depends what conference, how many days they miss. you can keep defending it. i would work on changing it. thank you for the hearing. >> thank you. i want to thank the panel. lots of knowledge and appreciate everything you had to offer. somebody who was