unintentionally. its program is about an hour. >> host: "please stop helping us how liberals make it hard for blacks," author jason riley. if i were to tell you that i've taken this around me for several cookouts are just around town, political circles and it has raised a few eyebrows, just title alone become and sparks conversation, what would you think about that? >> guest: publishers would be happy to hear that. it's not surprising. i've had a similar reaction. when i went to get the jacket photograph taken the

photographer was black and ask me what is the title of the book and it started a conversation. >> host: you touch a lot of third rails in this book. you go from president obama, you talk about the voter id and even at the conclusion the third rail that you touch and i want to talk about that a little later on. george zimmerman and people in the black community. talk to me about how you have come up with these thoughts and brought things together for the book that typically is not thought of in the way that you have written in the black community. >> guest: a lot of it comes from people that i dedicate the book to do the black conservatives that affiliate of thatthe hoover institution and academics who have done a lot of research in this area and have

written about it for many years. and i'm familiar with their work and thought the younger generation of blacks should be saying the things they are saying for a new generation of readers and that was a part of the impetus for writing the book. >> host: you are an independent and he starts chapter number one black man in the white house. talk about that, barack obama. >> guest: barack obama's presidency in the first election of 2008 was kind of the culmination of the civil rights division. that pushed political power as a means of raising blacks in america. and i think it games with the civil rights act of 64 and the voting rights act of 65. since then, however, liberals, black liberals in particular have made political power a priority electing more officials

and the obama presidency is the culmination of that vision. i want to say we have that now. to use the data term what do they have to show for it and that is really what prompted that chapter and what i get in there is the history of groups that have gone that route. they push the political power and they push economic power. >> host: and you talk about those in the civil rights you talk that thutahthat the indust. tell me about that. >> guest: well, yes i think what you have on the left today is a group of individuals and organizations and the big battles have been fought and won. the trouble they have today convincing people. they are the true problems blacks face and i think they

have become parodies of what they used to be under king. the naacp spent its time coloring the nation reciting the confederate flag or the use of the n-word is saying there you go. see nothing has changed. don't hold them responsible for the social economic situation today when we still have donald sterling out there or someone raising a confederate flag in the tea party rally and i think that is a search for relevance. i don't think the racism in general is what is primarily holding blacks back today and racism hasn't been the primary berry or to the advancement for some time. >> host: i want to go back to something you said. battles have been fought and won when it comes to the community. what did you say to the disparities and the jobless rate in this country? african-americans still to this day have the highest unemployment rate in the nation.

it's been bringing us to the country and obviously there are disparities in education. there are predatory lending situations where they have these loans that make them default or foreclosure. there are so many other issues out there that is just in the criminal justice system as well and that's one of the reasons president obama came out after the georges mirman verdict because there is a thought and feeling in fact that african-americans are at the disproportionate level giving higher sentences for things like crack cocaine and also in jail for different things versus a white person. as a talk to me about that when you say the battles haven't been won. >> guest: i take issue with the premise that you pointed the unemployment rate and said for

instance that they've been that way since we came here to this country. as you go back to the first part of the 20th century as far back as the 20s, 30s and 40s and even into the 50s, you will see black labor participation rate tire than white labor participation rates. you will see if you go back to the census studies coming out of slavery in the 1870s and 1890s while off into the 1940s, you will see the rate of two parent households hire him on blacks than among whites. so, you have to look at the trends that were already in place before some of the major civil rights legislation passed. you have between 1940 and 1960

the 40-point drop in the poverty rate in america. 40 points between 1940 to 1960. before the voting rights act. before the civil rights act. that trend continued after it was passed, but at a much slower rate. at best they were continuing the trend. >> host: with lbj the war continues and i understand you talking about the consensus of the slavery in the 50s and 60s but that quality of what kind of jobs there is a big difference. they are versus being in the lower end of the spectrum the kind of jobs for agriculture at variance and housekeepers and things of that nature. >> guest: that's not what i'm talking about. blacks were joining the skilled professions at a faster rate prior to affirmative action

policies which began in earnest in the 1970s than they were after those policies were put in place. teachers, craftsmen and so forth joining the provisions at a higher rate prior to the passage of these. again, almost without thinking we credit is like a form of action for helping to swell the ranks of the black middle class and increase the number of the college graduates. in fact affirmative action has had the opposite effect. we have 40 years of evidence to look at regarding the affirmative action policies. i will give you a quick example. at the university of california in the empir entire state syste, racial preferences were banned back in 1996 and a voter referendum. after that dan took place, black college graduation rates at the university of california rose by more than 50% and they also rose

in the most difficult disciplines of math and science and engineering. again by more than 50%. a policy intended to increase the ranks of the black middle class was in fact producing fewer black college graduates and then they otherwise would have had. >> host: in the book you cite the justice clarence thomas. >> guest: i think they will say let's look at the track record of what is working and what isn't working when it comes to something like affirmative action with the evidence shows is that affirmative action is mismatching kids with schools and what i mean by that is that it often sets up kids for failure and takes smart kids that might do well to a less

selective schools and then that's more selective school they are more likely to drop out altogether or switch to an easier major. a quick example of this is a study done at mit. blacblack students at mit some s ago. the students enrolled at mit scored in the top 10% on their math sat scores. of all of the kids in the country regardless of color that they were in the bottom 10% at mit. so, you take these very bright kids who would just be hitting it out of the park at a less selective schools. they are at mit struggling. and as a result many don't graduate of mit doesn't care about that. they care about how the freshman class works. whether it looks like there is enough diversity and whether the college catalog has the right look. but for me someone who is

concerned about the level of public graduates in this country i would like to see more of them graduate and the evidence shows me that more graduates than the absence of affirmative action policies than when we have affirmative action policies in place. >> host: please stop helping of how liberals make it hard for blacks to succeed. the author with us today jason riley. this is a very hot conversation. i'm thrilled to be sitting here talking with you. i really am because it is interesting to hear what you have to say. as you are going back as a reporter i get a different set of facts but it's for the listener int and the reader ande viewer to make the assumption, and i appreciate what you have to say. >> there are lots of footnotes and there is an index people can look it up for themselves. they don't have to take my word.

>> host: let's go back to the affirmative action situation. we have seen it in the university of michigan talking about preference. we heard about these opportunities in the bush years with the university of michigan, but i want to talk about the examples that you give at mit, but what about places like harvard university that really go out and recruit african-americans to come in and they give them scholarships to read they give them thousands of dollars for scholarships to come to the schools in harvard university and amherst have been battling back and forth between being the number one school to graduate. >> guest: many of them are black immigrants mightily. they are not people that grew up in a subculture that i talk about in this book and which are graduating from the schools and any of them are immigrants and

you find that when you look at education across the country come and in particular in the big cities here in new york where i live you have some selective high schools and the kids have managed to get into those schools do tend to be immigrants. so, there is that. but the issue with affirmative action again is are we helping the intended beneficiary? when you lower the standard for the admission, are you helping or hurting the child's chance of graduating clicks and i think the evidence is overwhelming. >> host: in society today you are no one and i hate to say this but you don't make anything if you don't have a college degree. >> guest: why are we assuming that it's for sale or nothing? >> host: we were talking about mit. so i'm bringing integral to the table harvard if they've named

other schools and made appeals that harvard has been very prominent in how they -- >> guest: i have no problem with harvard recruiting kids. the problem is when they recruit for those that can't handle the work because they want to make the freshman class more diverse. that's what i have a problem with. where they can handle the work and they are more likely to graduates like most people in america. they go to school where they can handle the work and you see the higher graduation rate when the person entering as a freshman when their credentials match the credentials of the average student at the school that's where kids graduate. >> host: very interesting conversation. i want to talk about another topic. again, let's go back to the title of the book please stop helping us how liberals make it hard for blacks to succeed.

voter id. it's been a very big issue in the black community. especially since the last couple of years even before the president. we've been talking about this issue and its 100% with this president. i want to read a piece of your book that says it so happened to black voters turn out suppressed the white turnout on the record in 2012 even while more and more states were implementing these supposedly racist voter id laws. about two thirds of the three eligible blacks 66.2% voted in the 2012 presidential election higher than this thank .1% of the non-hispanic whites who did so. talk to me about the need for or if we don't need a voter id in your opinion. >> guest: the reason that i addressed this in the book is because i think it is shameful

the way that the attorney general eric holder's and others have essentially been going around the country trying to scare blacks to the polls that the wall is being passed to disenfranchise them and the evidence doesn't support that. it's interesting that trend predates the obama presidency in case someone dismissed it as a phenomenon of having a black president. that trend dates back as the census makes it clear to the clinton years when the turnout was steadily increasing. and the other point to make here is that it's not only the most democrats and republicans and men and women and conservatives and liberals support a voter id so do most black americans. so, the president is out there telling people that support

voter id and the majority in a number of polls taken in the recent years have shown this. he is telling them that the republicans are not interested in the ballot integrity. they are only interested in suppressing votes. and my point is giving the voter trends and turnout trends they are trying to suppress. they are doing a pretty bad job of it given that voter turnout occurred also and went up as you mentioned in the statistics on the strictest voter id law in the country >> host: some question whether the voter id is reminiscent and promotes procedures in the past when it comes to voting for blacks.

you need an id to get a library card. the idea that it's too much to ask of people. it is quite insulting and i think that again most agree with me because a majority of them have told them repeatedly they do support the voter id. it is wide and deep in the country. he would never know that listening to the rhetoric, but it is and has been for a long time. i'm sitting with the author of please stop helping us how liberals make it harder for blacks to succeed. very, very hot topic i think and before we go any further you might have your supporters who think i'm cheering you on. but let's find out who you are.

we understand that you sit on "the wall street journal" editorial board and urls are a contributor at fox, fox news coming at you are an independent, correct? where did you get your ideas and start out this way? did it happen all of a sudden or did it start growing it into someone help shape your ideas flex >> guest: it happened gradually starting in the late teens very politically aware as a young teenager i didn't live in a political household we didn't sit around discussing politics in my family in my immediate or extended family. but in school through social studies through the courses of the time you are required to do some report on current events or

read a newspaper and i started doing so. in college i started reading the authors like shelby steele and what they said made a lot of sense. and i liked the fact that they brought the deed to the discussion and they were not just shooting from the hip and speaking from experience is in many cases with people like shelby steele, and it resonated with me. they were trying to show me the way or point me in the stretch and. >> host: where did you graduate college? >> guest: new york buffalo. i graduated from there and i was born and raised in buffalo. >> host: talk about your influences. you come from a divorced household. your mother cared for you and your father was in your life? talked to me about that and how

it relates. as it relates to president obama and how he talks about fathers. >> guest: i grew up in a home but only where my father had a huge amount of influence even though he didn't live with us my parents were divorced when i was younger but my father had visitation rights three or four days a week, weekends, holidays, he was a presence in my life coaching little league baseball and things like that. but i also have an extended family .-full-stop strong intact families that was just quite common. everywhere i looked whether it was my church, extended family, i saw men all around me that went to work in suits and ties. it was just the norm. i have too many role models to o count but my father was very

much a part of that. and my mother, despite the diverse always appreciated that aspect of him that he stuck around. he was around for his kids and grandkids. >> host: since you have something that unfortunately many kids including president obama did not have. >> guest: i would love to hear him speak like that and i wish that he would do it more often. the point i was making is the flak that he catches on the left from black intellectuals in particular when he says these things. he is accused of talking down and condescending.

it's more about airing dirty laundry making the same arguments that raise concerns talking about blacks. talking about culture as the real corporate and a lot of what ails the underclass today is quite taboo among blacks. those are fighting words. and one of the reasons we don't talk about it more often is because he catches so much flak. but i think that he is dead on when it comes to these issues. when it comes to staying off drugs and staying in school, getting married or having children, is extremely powerful. and that hasn't just been shown anecdotally.

there is hard t social science d empirical data backing that up and so i wish him all the best and i wish he would talk about it a lot more. we are talking about race an ana dvd that this time there is racism in this country? >> guest: of course and i will not live to see a time when there isn't. but the question isn't whether it exists. it's what extent is racism a barrier to progress in this country and when i look back at what blacks achieved when racism was much more open and overt and even legal, it's hard for me to draw a connection between racism and 70% of the community or double-digit unemployment rates in the community.

given that in previous times they faced many obstacles in the country we had better outcomes in both of the categories. >> host: please stop helping us how liberals because harder for blacks to succeed. jason riley, when you are on fox news or writing the columns for "the wall street journal" do you include this kind of conversation or dialogue that is in your book? >> guest: i do commentary on television on all types of topics. most of them not having to do with race that when it comes up, sure. i see these types of thing thind recommeni'vewritten in this boon fact, that's where i said vendors either in the pages of "the wall street journal" or the publications over the years order on television. i have been doing television

commentary for about a dozen years now. so there've been many opportunities to speak about these issues and i try to take advantage of them. >> host: what has been your response from the civil rights leaders to sum up this? have touched these anyway and backing up with the endnotes with what is the response? >> guest: there is a lot of name calling. it is a lot of childishness. unfortunately what you don't get is a lot of engagement of the idea. instead you put on the couch. you've seen this happen with clarence thomas. justice scalia is wrong on a number of issues if you are a liberal, but clarence thomas isn't just wrong. he is a sellout. he has got psychological problems.

that is what the reaction typically has been. that's usually coming from black elite. independent tree of journalism or politics i get a different reaction. there is a naacp rank-and-file and i think they are wide differences. and it is unfortunate to me that many of the media, many in the media continue to run to the house sharpton speak on behalf of blacks and over the past decade the interest of the jesse jackson and al sharpton is diverged wisely from what the black underclass in particular

needs in terms of the public policy. >> host: before we go to break and after we come back we are going to talk about more of these issues that you dare to touch in this book. does it bother you when you hear the community rise up against you for what you say? >> guest: that would be a little melodramatic. no one likes to be called names. i don't believe that. but i believe these things need to be said. i don't think liberals and the policies that are put forward would help the black underclass furthermore i don't think they are not just not helping. i think in many cases talking about affirmative action earlier that they are harming. they are doing more harm than good. that's what motivates me.

they are saying what needs to be said and it is a positive contribution to the date and that is an important debate. some name-calling is something that people put up with. >> host: jason riley "keys stop helping u"thesestop tellins make it harder for blacks to succeed." we will be back with this conversation in a moment. he wod like to download and listen to "after words" while you travel. >> host: we talked about third