political party? >> guest: if iran i would run as a republican. >> host: clear that up once and for all. >> guest: i would run as an independent because all does this split of the vote. i don't think it would be welcomed in the democratic party post that you would pick one of the two parties? >> guest: yes. >> host: there's a distrust inside both parties right now. and part of it is this potters thing. the right thinks i'm not getting a fair deal and its government fall. the left thinks i'm a getting a fair deal, it's wall street's fall. i think you can make an argument they are both right in some ways. and that's why i've wondered if some of this boils over to more of a row move and people go outside the party structures. >> guest: and i would, after seeing what happened with ross perot -- >> host: that's what conventions you. you want to reform which wanted an --

>> guest: but also would like to see a situation where we deemphasize party. i just don't think, i mean, i think it's nice to have -- >> host: that's truly going back to the fund. they didn't want parties. that was the big argument. >> guest: we are all americans. i think we have to be doing things that work for all of us. one of the things that offends me to no end is when we take our constitution and we say i'm going to enforce this part but not this part. this group gets an extension but this one doesn't. i can't even tell you how that makes me feel. >> host: let me ask you about the constitution. are you a strict, it's sort of like, and, frankly, which come and, frankly, which his father's court cases go this way. is the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. the constitution. it's at the letter, at the speed the when you decide whether something is constitutional. >> guest: i think it is the letter, and i would anyway.

first of all it's only 16 of the 30 pages. it's not 2700 pages. >> host: easy read, write? >> guest: it clearly delineated responsibilities of the executive branch, the legislative branch, the judicial branch. so all other matters are referred to the states. if you just knew that come bigotry a great deal about what we should and should not be doing. >> host: quick lightning round. gay marriage you can be pro-civil union. at that point what is the difference? >> guest: what i am pro- and what i defined very clear, i said any two adults, regardless of their sexual orientation, should have the right to bind themselves in some type of a legal manner so that property rights, visitation rights, whatever. >> host: too many people that's a distinction without a difference. why not come out for marriage?

>> guest: because i think marriage is a sacred instituti institution. and it's between a man and a woman and has been for thousands of years. my problem is if we start changing it for one group, why would you not change it for the next group? where would you draw the line? would you say would is going to change it this one time per day people ever not going to change it in the house that going to go over? >> host: marijuana? >> guest: we have multiple studies that demonstrate that it has a very villagers effect on the developing brain and the brain developed right up until the late '20s. ..

>> host: the two books she has been in our bestsellers. sharon binder of that alive. >> guest: that's right. thank you.

>> at the next come interviews from her college series. this month of the university of california los angeles, professors lane hirabayashi talks about his uncle, gordon hirabayashi of americans during world war ii reached the supreme court. this is half an hour. >> host: you are watching both tv on c-span2. from time to time we like to visit universities so we can talk with professors who are also authors. today we are on location at ucla. joining us is professor lane hirabayashi who is the author of

this book, "a principled stand". now, there is a court case here you mention that has the same last name as you. what is your relationship to gordon hirabayashi? >> guest: absolutely it is a well-known court case and gordon is my uncle. he came from a family with five siblings and my father james was the middle kid and gordon was the oldest son. >> host: who was cordoned hirabayashi? >> guest: well, that is a multifaceted -- that will take a multifaceted answer. for much of his life he was a sociology professor at the university of alberta in edmonton canada and that was the bulk of his professional career. we actually came in the limelight of the 24-year-old washington student.

he was amongst a handful of people that felt the curfew against not only japanese following pearl harbor, but also japanese-americans included himself. he was a u.s. citizen. the curfew would not only apply to the alien parents, alien i might add because they were ineligible to become naturalized u.s. citizens. but i think gordon thought of himself as an american. and so, when the curfew applied not only to the parents, but also second-generation japanese-americans like himself, he objected very much do that. >> host: what was the curfew, professor? >> guest: the curfew came at the order general john dewitt and the western defense command after pearl harbor. understandably they felt the need to secure port areas.

seattle, san francisco, los angeles. these kinds of areas as well as airports were felt to be too sensitive as though they were restricted and along with that, shortly following the war or at least u.s. entry into the war, curfew was established, kind of a dog to desk curfew to keep supposedly dangerous elements off the streets during the evening. what really concerned cordon with aliens who did not have u.s. citizenship were subject to this. on the japanese-americans were also the good in these orders. then people of germany, italian

americans are not effective from third generations just as americans because there were many. second-generation african-americans who are subject to the curfew as well and objected very much to that. plus with the orders for removal of all persons of japanese ancestry, borden fell that was unconstitutional as well. i would also add you as a christian. my grandfather became a christian even while he was still in japan. so gordon had both constitutional, but also moral and religious reasons for objecting to both the curfew and the exclusion. >> host: what was the incident that led to the court case?

>> guest: the famous incident that gordon is usual with studying in the library there at the university of washington and i guess the appointed hour around 8:00 p.m. or so he would have to go back to the dorm or somewhere like that. in order to fulfill the solutions of the curfew order. as the story goes, one time he caught out and started to leave and not upon reflecting why he was going felt that it wasn't right, the deed done nothing wrong, that he was an american. i understand he went back to the library, sat down and there was much consternation amongst his classes. hey gordy, what are you doing? >> host: when you say classmates, do you mean white classmates? >> guest: he belonged to the ymca.

the photograph of his classmate, i think it was predominately caucasian, but there were other asian-american faces in there. i think his roommate at the time was caucasian. but they were often friends are very concerned when showed back up in a library and a library inside what are you doing here? it is after-hours. what are you doing here? and he asked them, what are you guys doing here? they said we are here studying for the exam coming up next week and gordon said i am here doing the same kind of thing. it was a principled stand. he did this intentionally and i think because of his participation in the ymca, because he was already a quaker, because he was already involved

in antiwar activities on the university of washington campus, he evolved the decision that he was not going to go along with this, but also he was going to challenge the constitutionality as well as the morality of both the curfew order in the order for removal. >> host: did he get arrested in the library? >> guest: no, he did not. he dutifully recorded what was going on including his coming back to the library after hours so to speak. he made contact with a lawyer and they decided that they would report to the local fbi with the diary, with direct evidence that violated curfew and he would present himself as objecting.

so she made that decision. i think at that point already, arthur burnett, a fellow quaker was his lawyer. i might add that the quaker dimension is very much a part of this whole deal from the very beginning. >> host: professor hirabayashi, this is 1942. this is a time of war, patriotism i guess in internment camps for japanese-americans. >> guest: yes, i think there was a pretty immediate removal of people in the seattle area and that would be from bainbridge island where you say pioneers had settled, were affirming the right in the middle of puget sound and waterways and that was

sensitive. anyone in that situation, down here think that what would be on the waterway, and other sensitive. as early as large people are removed from the sensitive areas. fishermen of course are part of the justice department sweep on the community immediately following pearl harbor and i think it was very brave of gordon in that sense. all these measures are falling into place for protection, for national security. curfew i think it's understandable in that kind of circumstance. i think the principle for borden was why our japanese-americans who are u.s. citizens also been

singled out along with the japanese, german and italian aliens? >> host: how did the court case hirabayashi versus the u.s. play out? >> guest: it is interesting because the curfew issue was certainly there in the beginning at the local court as was the challenging of removal. so both of these charges were initially filed at the local level and he spent about five months in jail by the way at one of the things i think is kind of interesting when he landed in king county jail, apparently he looked around and he was thinking where is everyone else? i guess we actually expect that somehow there would be a broader outcry amongst the generations because after all they had been

brought up at inculcated in american schools at abraham lincoln george washington, principles of democracy and so he very much expected there'd be a crowd of other people who felt the same way that he did. that wasn't the case. he was pretty much by himself. i think he spent about five months in the kenya county jail. by the way, this is really what we are trying to do with the book, "a principled stand." there had been any number of law review articles about jordan's case. but chapters and so forth. around 2005 my father was cleaning out according study along with my antique and came across spiral notebooks that renascence diaries from the jail. also fairly massive collections of gordon's correspondence from

the day. and so i think what we've tried to do in this book more than anything else is capture the 24-year-old. what was gordon thinking as a young man as he's preparing to to take on basically the united states government, with his legion of highly talented lawyers. i think i myself tried to put myself in accordance shoes. as a 24-year-old i don't think i would have anywhere near the intelligence. maybe they got or the chutzpah. i don't know what she would be. at various points i had to wonder, could i have done this? what i've been willing to take this on even in terms of religious and constitutional times, principles. i'm not sure, but gordon my wish is five points jail before his

term comes up in this very quickly found guilty of both charges, guilty of violating curfew for which his diary was direct evidence of the violation and he did not report to be registered and to be removed from seattle to the wartime civil control authority camps that were the initial point of roundups and holdings before people were put in one of the 10 more permanent camps. gordon did not leave seattle. what was kind of unusual i think as he had tremendous support. he had support from his fellow students at the ymca because many of them were also passes this. many of them had been involved in the uw network of students that were concerned about the u.s. entry into the war, but

especially from a quaker, the efficacy of war as a way to settle the differences between people. he had that constituency supporting him. friends from the university visiting him in kenya county jail, supporting him. but i would also want to add he had the total support of the seattle-based religious society of france. so this does evolve and i think at some juncture the quakers as basis iad is better known perhaps to report gordon is a test case to see if they can get the courts to examine the constitutionality of curfew removal and subsequently of the larger incarceration persons of japanese ancestry. what i kind of expected from the

diary was to read the letters and the entries and what was kind of pictured as a young 24-year-old guy with a rain cloud over his head. i would be very depressed i think even if i felt i was right or even if i knew i was right would be very threatened in a time of war, in a time when have to remember when the prejudicial and discriminatory attitudes that have been there for the tens, 20s and 30s were completely heightened in a situation of total war after pearl harbor, a system that is a formidable kind of situation and the thing that was so surprising from the letter and from the diary and began what we're trying to do in this book is not

comment on the legal case so much. not really comment on even the history, but you try to use gordon's own words to describe the family background and here christiana pacifism and the influence of american schools. we have to remember gordon was a boy scout. i think he almost became an eagle scout. he couldn't afford the money to do the camping requirements to get that final batch. but he was a very americanized individual. so he felt like he felt right about doing this, but i think he had the support of his classmates, the ymca generally, the friends of seattle is a remarkable group that included distinguished university professors like which know that include politicians and so he

had very senior members of the religious society of friends saying yes, we are going to support you on this. yes, you are doing the right thing. they even establish the gordon hirabayashi response committee for legal fees. and so, as i have gone around the country to talk about the book, one of the questions i always get is why it's important? what about gordon in april 10 at the college student he was 24 because he couldn't afford to go straight through his classes. he would have to take a semester and quit and go on work and saves them money and then he would go back. he was somewhat older undergraduate, the 24 is not very old. i really encourage people to buy the book and take a look. the point here is gordon was a

very special person and he did have an interesting background that included japanese christianity, a very kind of moral background. american education played a part of mess, but at the same time he had a lot of tangible support. he didn't do this alone. it's an interesting question whether he could have done it or could have done in as cheerfully as he did without his university colleagues and without the quakers support. the diary entries in the letter are very edifying. he's convinced that it was right. he doesn't waver. he educates himself in jail. he is reading. he is thinking about jesus. and here i would have to would have to skateboard and did not wear his religion on his sleeve.

i didn't have a lot of contact with gordon because his family lived up in alberta and we lived in the san francisco bay area, but i never once heard quote the bible. i never once heard him talk about jesus ever. and yet, while in that sense it was a profound experience for me to read because i felt as getting to know somebody that i did not know at all. because when i met gordon, he was already a professor. he didn't wear his famous bow tie on the family house or anything like that. he was a professor, an older friendly kind of guy. >> used the terms he say in me say. what are those terms? >> guest: from the japanese-american community label or gender ration so the original came onto the u.s.

mainland between the 1890s and free immigration is cut off by the gentlemen's agreement of night in a way. that is our first-generation pioneer and their experiences marked by a calm here and if they stayed, they were aliens ineligible to u.s. citizenship. so in other words by lot by the statute of the naturalization act of 1790, they were ineligible because you have to be free and white in order to naturalize. the court case in 1922 confirms the supreme court's ruling that japanese are not why. gordon's generation was the nisei or second generation and they are u.s. citizens by birth rate. so i think historically it was to get access to naturalization,

which they finally do by 1952. i think it was the quest of jordan generation to try and make their rights as u.s. citizens tangible and real. so many times in the course of principled stance, which is basically all and gordon's work that experience as much as we could. we had to do some cobbling and filling in, but he refers a number of times to citizenship and saying even though i know i'm not a first-class citizen, i'm going to comport myself and really commanded that i be treated as a full-fledged u.s. citizen in one and one of the principles is adhering to and taking this risk being found guilty and then taken the

punishment. >> host: professor hirabayashi, 24 years old, gordon, had he even visited japan at that point? >> guest: absolutely not. the hirabayashi family night and i think my grandfather did throughout the course of his life remit money because the family was not wealthy. the media family was not healthy and he took i think -- my grandfather took those obligations very seriously. like i say, there is enough to keep as they were farming where they grew vegetables. but gordon did not have the money to do the camping for his eagle scout badge. the way my father explained that was as in many of these prewar families come economics were pretty much communal. so my father describes something like the family cookie jar.

there was a jar of whatever money the kids might make, you know, gordon for the younger kids might make by doing odd jobs, maybe helping out the neighbor's farm or something like that. all the money that the members of the family earned went into the collective -- it wasn't a big account. it was the cookie jar because they needed everything to get by. anything that has to do with education, my grandparents would be willing to go into the jar. so there is kind of a dream in the family that all of the captain go to the university. all the children. my grandmother very much inspired all the children have white-collar profession. posts are what did your grandparents think of gordon's decision to go to jail and pursue this? >> guest: well, i know immediately that my grandmother was deeply concerned and some of

her concern has to do with the family and family unity. so gordon in the book described as mother begged him and wept saying that, you know, you don't know what's going to happen. you don't know for going to be separated for a lengthy period. maybe you'll be found guilty. maybe we'll never see you again. and she pleaded with him not to do this. i can't remember of it than this book or not, but gordon remembers this is the more difficult than his conversations with the fbi, with the sheriff and other officials that were singing don't do this for a range of regions. post of the reasons and canada for so many years was a direct effect of this case? >> guest: really don't know. i think for all of the hirabayashi guys anyway when they got there, their graduate

degrees, they followed the job market. so my uncle gordon after the war came back to the university of washington, got his ba degree, which was pretty old when he got because of jail and all the circumstances of the war. but that was followed pretty quickly by a master's degree in both sociology and anthropology from uw. he spent time subsequently in the middle east at the university of cairo. these were visiting positions, but vietnam just in the middle east. as a quaker he got involved in some dvds. even back in those days in the middle east. i think would have been alberta in edmonton came and he took that job and remained there for

the rest of his career as a sociologist. but it wasn't as hard as i understand that a rejection of the united states for an expression of disappointment all beauport and did believe that he would be vindicated by the supreme court, which i thought was kind of interesting. when he got combat dead, you know, the local court level in seattle, he kind of expected the court case then went also 42 to the ninth circuit court in san francisco for a po. they essentially refuse to consider the case and passed to the supreme court. i think it was gordon's hope that the supreme court justices of the united states would understand the constitutional issues he was concerned about. he and baret