>> i'm greg goddard, space flight center. this my outreach to high schools, especially those that aren't located near nasa centers or in metropolitan areas, i'm finding that they really don't have any awareness of what, you know, the country's doing in space exploration. and more significantly, their funding for staff is such a small percentage of that for other activities like athletics, for example. in fact, at this one high school, they actually have a bake sale to have a robotics competition, and they didn't get

enough money, so they didn't have it. and yet they've got this huge football field, you know? so i guess my question is how do we encourage, not only encourage the students to get interested in lieu of an active human exploration program beyond low earth orbit, how do we bring that apollo-like interest in s.t.e.m. that apollo generated kind of on autopilot, basically? you know, it just happened because everybody was interested in the program. young students wanted to get involved in engineering and science and math. we don't have that, you know, at this time, at least not that i'm aware of. so how do we, how do we get them involved or interested in pursuing those things with a visibility that they see with the sports on tv and some of the other aspects of our society that aren't, you know, that are more visible than the space

program? >> so i'll, i'll start to answer that. i think there's two halves to the equation. i think one of the keys in getting more kids interested in the s.t.e.m. fields and getting them into those type of careers is very, very sobering, and that is we have to have policy changes that will make the kinds of things happen in the classroom and outside the classroom that will really make a difference. and so when i hear stories about schools that have tried to do these things on their own and have struggled, it's not the first time i've heard that story, and i would say we do a very good job in our best high schools in the most affluent neighborhoods of dealing with the s.t.e.m. subjects. so when you watch a media report, it's a lot of times kids in white lab coats who are going to college before they were involved in the after school program or the engineering competition or other things, they were already on that

direction and were accelerating in that direction. i think there's another category of stories that aren't being told as much about the struggling schools that also see these summits are -- subjects are important u see the jobs, see the connection to the future, but either don't have the resources, the expertise or the critical mass to make that happen. and that's where the policy change that i started talking about at the beginning is going to have the biggest bang for its buck. it's in those schools that we'll achieve that. but the other half of the equation is the inspirational piece. if a child is properly educated and has all of the rights support in school but they never see the other end of the equation, they never see the grand design that they can fit into or they never have the mentorship experience that they can fit into, then that's also a weak link. and i think an interesting part of this is we're only starting to understand how to hook people from outside the sort of traditional s.t.e.m., college-bound population into

the s.t.e.m. fields. i think you can see this in the resonance of the astronauts of color and women too and how young women relate to female astronauts. and i think that is something that we have to take into account when we're thinking about these things as well. and i would also offer a challenge to the space industry. so if i had a meeting with james cameron, i would be thinking to myself i wonder if we could get a number of space companies together and get a movie done about going to mars. and not, not, you know, i know we've had movies like this before, but wouldn't it be nice to have one every so off so that people didn't look at val killer going to mars and saying i don't want even know who that is, right? >> just to follow up on that, as i mentioned earlier, we do the best we can with s.t.e.m. given the budgets that we have, and i think nasa does a great job of it. i know my fellow companies do a great job. we're certainly out there doing everything that we can. but as i said, i think we need

to leverage a few things. one is upcoming events that we have that we all need to take advantage of and try to get that out there and try to get the top tier media involved so that it really is, you know, a topic of discussion on all the talk shows and such. the other is leveraging pop culture. and it's amazing when you look at role models of these students, especially the k-12. they really look at the entertainment industry, and it's really amazing the leverage you can get out of that. and then i still say that astronauts are a big motivator for young kids. and we need to do more of that, and we're certainly talking to the folks at jsc about, you know, trying to get crews assigned early and trying to get more crew involvement in some of these events that i talk about coming up. and it's really tremendous, you know, the impact that you can have when you bring their role models into play.

>> thanks. did we answer your question? >> yes. i have a couple of questions. this is a discussion of american competitiveness. how important do you all feel that cross-energy and cross-disciplinary synergy between exploration technology and green technology and medical technology is in helping american competitiveness? because it seems to me that the way to get more involvement and more money is to understand that there's a very deep synergy between all these fields, and how do we organize s.t.e.m. education to help maximize the perception of that synergy and stuff like that? so any thoughts on that? >> yeah, great question. >> the first thing i'd say when

you're thinking about competitiveness is, it's a relatively new concept and certainly in washington and within policy circles. and i think it's a term that we need to spend more time trying to understand what its actual components are because i think when policymakers think about this if you roll back the clock a little bit, six or seven years ago it was competitiveness with india and china. that's where the tom friedmans of the world sort of defined the world of competitiveness. but in some sense, i think we're also competing amongst ourselves, because when you talk about federal investments and things and you talk about changing the education system, really competitiveness, when i hear that term, i think about the ability of families to improve themselves one generation over the other. and doing that very well is what makes us competitive within the rest of the world. and i think, again, when i talk about this issue of competitiveness, the biggest gains for this country in that

field are around the issue of equity. when the biggest potential gains are getting people who are not within the s.t.e.m. pipeline into the s.t.e.m. pipeline, i think about that being a huge advantage that we have as a country because we have a tradition of trying to broaden, broaden opportunity for all americans. and the s.t.e.m. fields are a tremendous -- if you believe that brain power and capability are equally distributed across all different parts of our society, then that's by far the biggest place to gain, because if you have role models that can, that can inspire people from all different backgrounds, that's part of the way how you'll open up that pipeline. but i think to get back to your first question about competitiveness, i don't think we fully understand b what being more competitive in the global economy actually means in terms of how do we measure it, and i think that's a good place to start. >> yes. i think the competitiveness, you know, it stems too, like you said, i'm not sure we all have

the same definition of what it is. but, certainly, as we approach difficult technical problems and create new things, create new materials, create new processes for dealing with harsh environments, you know, that brings us to have a skill that we didn't have before, and that allows you to push the state of the art -- that's one way to enhance competitiveness, assuming someone will want what you did. i think the other thing about a program like this is it forces us to think of ways to make things more cost effective in a constrained environment. and that by its nature is forcing a number of companies now to look at their manufacturing processes, their development processes differently. and so it's forcing them to be more competitive. and as we've talked about with s.t.e.m., having, you know, a mission like this and the many steps it takes to make this mission real, if we do our jobs right and we provide that inspiration of what this is, that will draw people, new

people into our companies, you know? this next generation. and with that, that enhances the competitiveness of our companies by rejuvenating them, bringing a different mindset. as ken said, we tend to have an older work force right now, you know? infusing that work force with a number of, you know, a large percentage of just out of college, i mean, that will change the face of many of these companies that do very special things right now and make them stronger for the future. >> i'd like to take it in a little different direction here. certainly, the technology that the doctor talked about in manufacturing technologies and those kind of things that we have the solve in order to go do a mars mission will cause us all to be more competitive. but one of the things that i've noticed internally within our industry is that now that we are converging on common goals here, you know, it's amazing how far we've come over the last few years. now that we're all talking about

steppingstones and the kind of missions we need to do early to get to mars, and buzz had some great ideas about predeploying contingency capabilities and support so that we can actually go do these missions unlike when miles mentioned some of the explorers of the past didn't have that ability. but one thing i've noticed in our industry is because we have this common goal now that while we're still competitive, we are really working closely together. and so it is a different kind of competitiveness. and then you can take that up to a global kind of scale. we're not going to do this mission just in the u.s. alone. this is going to be an international mission. i fully believe that, my opinion. and so when you take what we've realized here domestically and in working together towards a common goal, i really believe that eventually we'll have a global common goal, and we're starting to see that through the

icg and the global exploration road map and some of the things that we're mapping out here with national interests bringing their capabilities to the party here on how we get to mars. and i think that in itself will create kind of a different competitiveness than we tradition traditionally think of. >> thank you. and i think we have a question over here. >> yeah. hi, i'm elizabeth wallace. first, i'd like to acknowledge the person who asked a question right before me. i was at a presentation he gave at a local school in maryland recently, and it was on mars. and his room was packed. standing room only. the first class was all female students, and i thought, oh, this is a great trend. and the second one was all male, and i'm like, okay. [laughter] but it was really nice mix of both that were very, very interested, and they stayed the whole time and asked all kinds of questions, so it's about maintaining that kind of

inspiration. but the second thing i'd like to say is that when you had the apollo program and the whole country got excited as we all know, that kind of passion is missing as we know. but i think we can incentivize by, like, using -- just as the iss is a steppingstone to mars, i think suborbital space tourism could be a steppingstone to understanding what it's like to be an astronaut and have more astronauts in our community that are our neighbors. so as at the last researchers conference they gave us space tourism is the new higher education. and it was an idea for fundraising for like an indie go type thing on college campuses so that you can create your own astronaut varsity teams, cross-disciplinary, and you vote for and fund the people on your campus to go to space. so you can tell middle school

students and high school students, go to these universities that have these astronaut varsity programs. and so they can start thinking about what colors they want to go to -- what college they want to go to. and then those astronauts who come back to campus can help inform the curriculum, can help inform and communicate that vision to other people faster because you'll have more people going up. the disincentive right now for subor bittal space tourism is really money. so we need to help them. that should not be the barrier. why not get inspired when you're 18 and in space, why wait until you're 50 and maybe can afford it? thanks. >> thank you. i don't think that was a question, was it? so over here. >> ken from north carolina. very fast, i want you guys to speak to your audience out there on the internet, please, and address this to the kids out

there. why would they invest the time and the energy to do the things it would take to get into a s.t.e.m. profession? >> that's a great question, and i was just thinking about the audience of students in the classrooms that were watching this under the previous question, because i do think there are an awful lot of packed classrooms when you talk about this particular topic. you know, there are a bunch of different reasons why somebody would think about the s.t.e.m. fields as an opportunity. if i'm wearing my hat as a parent for a minute, i'll tell you it's because that's where you'll get a good job, and that's where you'll be a great citizen. if i'm wearing my entrepreneur's hat, i'll say that's where you can make a name for yourself nowadays because last time i checked, the best selling app was just sold for $2 billion. so that might take an afternoon's worth of work somewhere to create that. so that would be wonderful if that was my job. but i would also say if you're

interested in where the future is going, that's also where the future is going in the sense that we do have a sort of an interesting astronaut now. i was thinking about the movie "gravity" while you were talking and the analogy and the example that sandra bullock has in that movie. but i also see people can see those role models more frequently now than they could five or six years ago in terms of seeing the people who are using technology as being ideal. there are lots of images in our society that can promote that kind of awareness to kids. so it's not just about getting a job or doing well, it's also about doing something that's really interesting and fun which is what most kids are looking for. >> great answers. question over here. >> my question had more to do with international competitiveness and be our own space industry. in your opinion, when are we going to reach the point where we're not as heavily reliant on a heritage system for a space technology and when we reach

that point, do you think that'll make a huge difference in the rate at which we're advancing and the direction that we take? >> so i know i'm the moderator, but i'll take a quick stab at that. and i really think bill actually got that one pretty right this morning earlier when they were talking. and the fact is going to mars is hard, going to mars is very expensive, and so we need to put those dollars where we will gain the most out of them as far as new technologies that are really required. so solar electric propulsion is one. the other piece that came up is going to mars is very risky, so we have astronauts in orbit today, but they're literally minutes away from the earth's surface if we needed to get them home. so it takes maybe a little bit longer to to jump in the spacecraft and come home, but once they've done the de-orbit burn, they're only about 60

minutes from the earth's surface. buildings step wise, you know, going about eight days away which is an assist lunar orbit is probably a next good step. realistically, when we're going to mars, you're months and months away from home if something fails and you don't have a backup alternative. so understanding those systems is really critical. the other one that keeps coming up is basic chemical propulsion. it takes a lot of mass. it takes a lot of that to get us all the way to mars. so by looking into areas like solar electric propulsion like julie talked about earlier, i think it's an area where now we can be very, very competitive globally. as was mentioned, either it's got a lot of applications that are very widespread, more so than just helping us get humans to mars. and as a human, you probably don't want the human on that system, at least not for the long journey, because it's kind

of slow. but for all the other mass and staging of equipment and orbiters and landers, it's probably a great technology. >> yeah. >> kent, i would just say adding to that it's actually enabling for some of the architectures that we're talking about. when you start looking at having the ability to take everything with you that you need including contingencies, it's really, really hard. the mass numbers just don't add up. and so having the ability to predeploy things, and that's what sep does for you. even though you have to send it way ahead of time, you can predeploy assets capabilities so that you don't have to necessarily take everything with you. and i think that's really enabling for some of the architectures we're talking about. not to mention the fact that it also opens up commercial opportunities. >> yeah. and i think, you know, u.s. does have a leadership position in some of these areas, but if you look at an endeavor like mars, i think the endeavor so broad that

to think that we would lead every part of it would, you know, it's probably not practical. i think we would look for those things that are, you know, most aligned with where the u.s. interests are, and, you know, anybody who's a part of in this is going to end up with world leadership in some aspect of it. >> do you see us relying on u.s.-made rocket engines rather than russian rocket engines anytime in the near future? >> at least for the next two weeks. [laughter] >> okay. >> so erik -- you know, my perspective is it really is a global role. to to get payloads into orbit, obviously, the u.s -- we have a combination of rockets made right here in the u.s. some of the different engines are imported, obviously, and i'm sure you're referring to the

rd-180 issue with the tensions with russia. but the flip side of that is what's going on on the space station right now where there's cosmonauts and astronauts together. near as i can tell, that's been effectively unaffected, and if anything, it helps stabilize relationships. >> if there's one thing about the iss that has been a tremendous success, it's our ability to work with international partners. and that has worked out very well. and we need to leverage that going forward. in terms of to pulse, i fully -- propulsion, i fully believe down the road we'll have a combination of foreign and u.s.-provided engines. >> thank you. >> good question. >> hi. chuck devine. the only group i'm currently a leader of is metro washington's men, but a few years back i was part of the governor's work force investment board in maryland leading a committee dealing with, among other

things, getting people to come into tech fields, particularly in aerospace. some of the things i heard when i was part of the governor's work force investment board, young people -- now, we're not talking 10 or 12-year-olds, we're talking about 19, 20, 22-year-olds are now starting to avoid s.t.e.m. fields for reasons such as very poor work/life balance and very poor management in their fields. and also, this is the mensa person in me coming out, one of the things that's become very popular in at least the high iq groups is, believe it or not, home schooling because we don't can like things like common core, and we're getting better results teaching on our own than we are seeing in our schools. would anyone care to comment on this? are you doing anything to bring these kinds of problems to the

attention b of the people currently in the field? >> well, i'll take that one. you know, there are so many interesting dimensions to this. i think to your point be about how at any given time that s.t.e.m. education is certainly not a monolith in the sense that when i read the opinion pages about this issue, there's a cop instant back and forth over whether we have too many of this type of engineer, not enough of that type of scientist. and that's, i think, healthy of the field because it's not monolithic. we don't need more of all s.t.e.m. graduates, and we don't train them all the same. and i think one of the skill sets that is still not really a part of the mix that explains some of the trend you're talking about -- because what you do see in some fields is a relatively high amount of turnover or leaving of the field by recent college graduates that thought they were going to do thing xyz and find out that the field is really not that. and one of the ways in which you get at that challenge is making

sure that those kids -- so the kids most commonly that don't stay within the s.t.e.m. fields either didn't have a person in their family that was involved in that field, they didn't have a mentorship experience along the way, they didn't have an internship. and the next best explanation is usually that they didn't have the type of training in teams, which is how most of the companies work. and those are all things that are very hard -- they're almost impossible to legislate, but they're even harder to get at in a policy context because they're all social skills. and those are not things that we can expect, you know, standards or policies to address directly. but i think the way we address them is by if you really make the s.t.e.m. subjects a priority and we hold the people who run our schools accountable for it, then we'll figure out how to solve those challenges in the same way that we will figure out what rocket system will get us to mars if we decide we're really going to go to mars. >> [inaudible] >> thank you. and by the way, you bring up a really good point.

this generation is different. so i think all of our companies are trying to understand where they're coming from about the work/life balance, social media, i think, is key in how we work with the generations. and the fact is it's a different, it's a much different world today than it was when buzz sitting here stepped foot on the moon from a country that had just come out of the depression, a very difficult time that we worked through. it's different now. so i think we should expect different generations. so -- but thank you. last question. >> hello. i am liz leech, i'm a sophomore at james madison high school, and so i am really enjoying the talk that's happened so far, but one of the things you're mentioning is how parents are aware that there are these opportunities in s.t.e.m. fields, but the students not necessarily. and certainly are i have a bunch of friends who are interested in s.t.e.m. fields, because i'm one

of them, i tend to associate with people like that. but i was wondering if there are some takeaways that i could, so i could communicate, generate more interest in people that might not necessarily be friends with who have, are interested in s.t.e.m.. so what can i tell them that can inspire them to then at least, like, put -- have the thought of then pursuing s.t.e.m. in college or in a summer program? >> i would say that, you know, if we're talking about an endeavor like this, going to mars, you can be a part of something that is unique. you can leave your mark, you know? and, i mean, you can go work in a grocery store, and you can go do a lot of other things, work in a bank. but if you're part of the space program, you can be a part of something that changes humanity. you can be a part of something that generates a new product that no one ever dreamed of, you

know? i mean, that's kind of things that are possible, you know? working in fields like with space or being a part of a mission like this is, you know, you can, you can -- and you have the opportunity to work with a lot of other smart people who are motivated that way. and i've had the benefit of doing that my whole career, and it has been the best experience of my life. >> one thing i'd say and i guess this is kind of a closing comment since our session is coming to an end, but i wonder, you know, i'm just guessing that a lot of your colleagues in school are following things like this on social media. and i would say one of the things that would be an interesting challenge is there are an awful lot of really cool people tweeting about science and technology issues. and if i were a, if i were somebody running one of these companies who i saw a really interesting project that a group of students at your high school were doing, i would want to be involved with it in social media. i think that's a good way to get

recognition, to show your colleagues that somebody actually cares about these things. it's also potentially a good way to raise must be for projects in school -- money for projects in school, and i don't know anybody that doesn't see that as an incentive to be involved in something. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. great questions. >> and join us later today for more american history tv. our theme this week is the war of 1812 with britain and the burning of washington. tonight we'll look at the battle of bladensburg among other events at 8 eastern on our companion network, c-span3. and turning to electoral politics, live coverage of north carolina's candidates for senator. kay hagan is up against republican thom tillis. and we've got more thursday with the california governor's debate. current governor, jerry brown, is being challenged by neel kashkari. see that live starting at 10 p.m. eastern also on c-span.

>> here's a look at some of our programming this week on the c-span networkses. on c-span tonight at 8 p.m. eastern, oral argument in the case of aclu v. clapper. the second circuit court of appeals hears a challenge to the national security agency's phone surveillance program. wednesday at 7 p.m., live coverage of a debate between north carolina democratic senator kay hagan and her republican opponent, thom tillis. then at eight, a senate hearing on sexual assaults on college campuses. thursday night at eight, the senate agriculture committee looks into school lunch nutrition. and at 10 p.m. eastern, live coverage of the california governor's debate between incumbent jerry brown and challenger neel kashkari. on c-span2's booktv tonight, let's drew talk about her 1975 book, "washington journal," about the news coverage of watergate. wednesday night, "after words" with cheryl chummily, author of

police state usa about law enforcement's increasing use of surveillance technology. and thursday, emily miller on her book, "emily gets her gun." and on american history tv on c-span2, tonight at 8 p.m. eastern historians discuss the battle of bladensburg and the burning of washington in the war of 112. and our -- 1812. and our coverage marking the 200th around versely of the -- anniversary of the war. find our television schedule at c-span.org and let us know what you think about the programs you're watching. call us at 202-626-3400. on twitter use the hashtag c123. or e-mail us at comments@c-span.org. join the c-span conversation. like us on facebook, follow us on twitter.

>> and live now on this tuesday morning for an event hosted by ucla's civil rights project which brings together college professors from all over the country to present their find beings on minority students and whether current policies are helping or hampering minorities to get into college. the specific topic today for the event will focus on do higher education accountability proposals narrow opportunity for minority students and minority serving institutions? this is taking place at the congressional visitors center here in washington d.c. this is live coverage on c-span2. [inaudible conversations]

>> good morning. [inaudible conversations] >> you hear me now? oh, you have to push -- yes. good morning, everyone. >> good morning. >> pleasure to welcome you here to the u.s. capitol in the this congressional auditorium for a meeting on new research on a very importantish i shoe which is -- important issue i which is the question about how to do accountability for higher education in a way that doesn't

disadvantage the disadvantaged, does not have unintended, negative consequences. many people have been worrying about it, and as the center that researches issues of civil rights for the last 17 years, the civil rights project was very interested in working with others in commissioning new research to look at the problems of implementing accountability and maintaining equity at the same time which is great challenge. and it's a challenge that the country has failed pretty badly, particularly in things like no child left behind in which there were very high accountability standards which all the states failed to meet as we predicted in sessions here in the capitol before it was enacted. and as a result -- [inaudible] [audio difficulty]

>> higher education, because higher education is such a critical factor in mobility and such an important area for struggle for equity. so today we are going to have seven new papers presented. but before i do that, i want to acknowledge the collaboration of a wonderful group of research centers around the country in this project. this project, which was funded by the ford foundation, was supported by the minority serving institution center at the university of pennsylvania, hope lab at the university of wisconsin, the center for equity, access and diversity at vanderbilt, excellence in

education, by the united three grow college fund and -- negro college fund and by the ace policy research center. so we've had a great time working with good colleagues, and we've had a wonderful response from the research community when we asked leading researchers to put other issues aside for a while and to try to address this issue. there are profiles that all of our speakers in your booklet are online in what you were sent if you registered before this morning, and so i won't take our time for that. in the civil rights project, we run really rigidly-controlled timing so that we try to protect your chance to ask questions. after the panel there'll be respondents to responsibilities. after that there'll be time for your questions. so as you listen to these things, think of some really hard questions for the authors. we don't want speeches, but we

do want short, provocative questions. so please write them down as you think about it. so our first presentation is going to be by -- [inaudible] from the university of wisconsin at madison and by willie kirkland from dillard university in new orleans. and without further ado, i will turn it over. >> thanks very much, gary. so the paper i'm going to talk about this morning, called the color of student death, is co-authored by two others. this is a paper, as i said, about student debt, something i know many of us are very concerned about. and certainly, as school resumes this tall for undergraduates across the country, we ought to remember that at more than one and two of them as they enter a college classroom this fall have taken out a loan in order to do so. and that's a significant change in the history of this country,

and it means something about what college opportunity entails today. in particular i think it's notable that borrowing today is no longer a choice, that if one wants to attend college today -- and particularly if one wants to attend college coming from a middle, moderate or low income family -- it's almost absolutely a necessity now that one borrows. and that's a major change over time. so total borrowing has grown by more than 10% in the last year alone, and we're hearing numbers about trillions and things like this. now, i'd be happy to talk about the nuances of that trillion dollar thurm and some concerns that i -- number, and some concerns that i might have about the pieces of this debate that have been overstated. but i think there is no way to overstate the fact that student debt has become an important facet part of the undergraduate experience today and that, in fact, many students actually need to borrow in order to attend college. so the purpose of this paper is

to turn to the data and consider what might be the implications of some of the current federal debate about restricting access to loans. whether it's through accountability measures for institutions, whether it's about institutions' right to limit the borrowing of their students or some of their borrowers in their effort to reduce default rates. we want to raise some significant concerns about the unintended consequences of such moves. we think that it's very important that rather than reacting by limiting borrowing if we want to deal with student debt, that we instead make more proactive adjustment toss the broader system of financing higher education. in all the talk about interest rates, repayment periods and parent plus loans, there's been something missing, a word that has not been said despite the very clear evidence of the strong relationship between race

ethnicity and family resources for college. it is indisputable that student debt today has a color. most student loan borrowers in this country are non-hispanic white and middle class. most of them. but the fact is that students of color and black students in particular are much more likely to require student loans in order to finance college. in other words, for these students it is rarely even a choice. the percent of black undergraduates on football aid is large -- financial aid is large and growing, and 52% of them have a loan. it's probably safe to say that the majority of african-american students in this country in college would not be there without access to student loans. next slide, please. now, why is this? the data indicates that it is fairly straightforward and that we've been overlooking a really important fact of today's status

quo. and that is that white families today have over 20 times the wealth of black families. that while the black middle class accumulated some wealth over the course of the 20th century, it was demolished in the great recession. today nearly one-third of black families have zero or even negative wealth. next slide. now, it is actually incredibly easy to forget about wealth when we're talking about financial aid. since thanks to legislative changes over the last 20 years, the fafsa today actually sets aside and ignores most family assets. it also ignores debt. but the fact is today that the need to borrow for college depends most heavily on whether or not your family has financial stability. income alone does not bring stability. and the racial wealth gap, again, has never been larger. so our empirical analyses

indicate that the black/white differences in family wealth -- can you click the slide, please? -- the black/white differences in family wealth can explain over 30% of the black/white differential that we observe in student borrowing. there's been a lot of claims about overborrowing. these claims do not take into account the significant disparities in wealth. black families understand that moving up in america depends on a college education, but it's very hard to move up when you lack wealth. it's easy to think of parent loans, therefore, as optional when your family has other options to turn to; home equity, a family inheritance, etc. but for many black families, there are simply no other options. when we do talk about race and student debt, we quickly turn to institutions. and in this case, my co-authors and i simply wanted to take a look at the data.

what does it tell us on this matter? there's been a lot of discussion in particular about historically black colleges and universities. there's also been a lot of discussion about for-profits. okay? so we thought it was very important to turn some attention to this. and it is the case, of course, that black students are overrepresented this their enrollment in these two types of institutions and we might, therefore, expect that the borrowing rates at those types of institutions would be higher because they do have students there who do need to borrow. but we might also ask whether they might be borrowing more of those institutions because there are fewer per-student resources. in other words, there's less available financial aid for the students, and maybe that's why they need to borrow more. so we take that into account in our empirical models. and what we find is that this factor, the lack of resources at the institution, is contributing to borrowing, but it's only doing so at for-profit institutions. it is not driving up the borrowing at hbcus.

please go to the next click. [laughter] so the overrepresentation of african-american students at for-profit institutions is actually contributing to another 30% of the observed race gap in debt. next slide. so in addition, we can see that while student loans are especially important to students at hbcus, it's also worth noting that for all the talk about this, all the talk about the overrepresentation of plus loans at hbcus, the you look at the pie chart, you see that, in fact, hbcus comprise just 4% of all parent plus loan borrowing. so if we're concerned about plus loans, we need to look elsewhere for our solution. next slide. so we think that it's clearly important that in discussing the upcoming reauthorization of the higher education act we acknowledge the importance of student loans to the african-american community and, indeed, to families all across the country.

these racial disparities in wealth are enormous, their growing rapidly, and they're not going anywhere which means that we need policies that respond to the problem by acknowledging it and providing help, not cutting them off. this is a way to insure that students do borrow less. it's meeting their demonstrated financial need. we have a federal needs analysis, and we ignore it when it clearly indicates a negative expected family contribution. we can change that law, and we can insure that students from families with no assets get the pell grant if they need it in order to succeed in college. so in other words, right now we have families and students who should qualify for a negative efc and a larger pell. we ignore that information and instead require that they borrow and then penalize them for doing so. we should also increase the transparency and reduce the risk of borrowing by restoring bankruptcy protection for all student loans. it's not required to tighten eligibility for this, and we

need to reduce the risk of nonpayment. finally, we would argue that the income-based repayment options available for a student loan should be extended to participant-plus loan borrowers. >> thank you very much. we have our authors timed, and there's timing signs being held up so that we're preserving your time for questions. our next speaker is willie kirkland from dillard university, so he can tell you from the front lines what this issue looks like to a very important hbcu. thank you. >> good morning. i'm here the talk about the experience of one institution with the impact of financial aid limits and how it affects the institution throughout from the individual students to the institution's bottom line. and so i'm talking about dillard university, located in new orleans, louisiana. it was founded in 1869. and throughout history the mission has focused on training

african-american and underprivileged individuals and to assume hardship roles throughout the world and the -- leadership roles throughout the world and the country. dillard, contemporary dillard has about 1200 students. 98% are prim. 98% from african-american. of that number, 65 percent are from louisiana. we also get a large proportion of students from other states including california where we get about 12% of our students, texas about 7% and illinois about 6%. also, 90% of dillard students receive some type of aid need. and this is important and critical because what it means is that for the institution, financial aid is central. and we'll find that financial aid permeates throughout the institution in terms of how it impacts the institution. dillard had a retention problem. let me backtrack a little bit.

in 2005 dillard experienced a significant loss of property and damage to infrastructure from hurricane katrina. that event resulted in dillard losing about half of its student enrollment from about 2,000 to about 1,000. subsequent hi, the institution -- subsequently, the institution embarked on reenrolling students and increasing its enrollment. however, by 2009, about four years after katrina, we ran into a problem, a serious problem, a retention problem. and it caught the attention of the administrators, the board of trustees and others because it was affecting the bottom line of the institution, its budget. revenues were down, and so what the institution decided to do was to look at retension and what may be driving retention at

the institution. no one had an inkling about what may be the factors, we just gnaw that retention was dropping. by 2012-'13, that individual cohort dropped to 58%. so we had a serious problem with retention. so the office of institutional research desired to undertake a retention study specific to the university. and what we were looking for was just to identify some things that may affect retention, and we put together a model specific to dillard, and that model had nine independent variables that were used to predict retention. first year to second year retention. some of the variables included first semester grade point average, high school grade point average, a.c.t. score, in-state

versus out of state, resident versus commuter and some financial aid consideration in terms of original need, percent of unmet need and amount of unmet need. and we used that to look at the 2010 cohort. what we found was, can you move the slide? what we found was that two important things stood out, two factors. one was unmet financial aid need and first semester grade point average. so these two things were driving retention at dillard, at least in terms of the 2010 cohort. so we looked at that, and the institution embraced it. and so now we kind of have some idea where our retention problems reside. so for this paper what we did was expand it on the initial study that we did, and we

included two more cohorts in 2011 and 2012. what we're looking for is to the find out whether or not there's reliability in terms of two variables that we looked at. were they influencing retention, you know, across cohorts? and so we used a cross-sectional analysis to look at three cohorts. and so if you are familiar with reliability, what you expect is similar results no matter how many times you measure a phenomenon. and what we found was that all three cohorts showed similar results in terms of the two most potent predicters were first semester gpa and unmet need. so having established a liability, one of the questions that came up since we had this data is what about federal policy and its impact?

and one of the things that has been talked about is the stricter requirements that are attached to participant-plus -- parent-plus loans. so what we decided to do was if we had the data to look at the impact of that. so for the 2012 cohort, we were able to to obtain data, and we performed a cross-tabulation, and what we saw is that the retention rate for those whose parents were declined a loan tended to be higher than those whose parents were approved for the loan and those who did not take the loan. so this spurred more interest. and so we decided to put that particular variable into our model. and so we modeled that, and what we found is that it came out to be statistically significant. and so that plus loan denial was another thing that stood out to us which has significant

implications in terms of policy because institutions are under a lot of pressures to meet accountability standards when, in fact, some federal policies may be confounding the ability to meet those standards. i want to say a couple of things about accountability. in terms of the institution itself -- and we've monitored accountability significantly over the last five years -- one of the things that we looked at and want to recommend is that there are factors beyond just an institution's capacity and capability that affect retention. students come into our institution with different, varying needs and, of course, those students don't persist at the same rate. and a lot of that is conditioned by financial aid, what we've found at dillard.

and so is it fair to compare an institution that has financial -- 90% of their students on financial aid to institutions which has 25%, say? and so when you fit standards and one of the things that we looked at is the graduation retention rate, then our suggestion is that perhaps some type of weighted system be incorporated so that institutions who are disadvantaged because the student population may, indeed, sort of even the playing field. >> thank you very much, dr. kirkland. our first commentator will be sele flores from vanderbilt university. >> hello, everybody. thank you again for the opportunity to respond to this paper. i'm going to respond to the

first paper. this paper brings forth two key social and financial policies that deserve more anticipation; that of the racial wealth gap and the racial debt gap. while a great deal of attention has focused on income, this paper is direct about how access to wealth -- which is influenced by a very poor racial history -- is fundamentally a discussion about race as well. other contributions include that of a focus on the role of the effects of the great recession as the new financial context. for example, it is no secret that low to middle income families may need to take out loans for college. i certainly could not have completed my various postsecondary degrees without this help. however, it is something different to engage in loan behavior in this post-great recession era from a personal as well as statewide context. the authors focused on the federal loan influence due to their role in a proposed college rating system, but state and institutional rating systems are also part of this equation in

regard to state decisions, for example, to deregulate tuition and institutional choices to disproportionally award merit over need. an important question suggested by this paper is how current regulations for loan engagement and response pay -- play out in this new financial context of wealth loss for all americans, but particularly for racial minority americans. the authors provide, also provide updated, new financial information on hbcus versus non-hbcus and also noted the participation when only 4 % of plus loans are at these institutions. in light of these contributions, i offer the following recommendations. in terms of the racial wealth gap, it might be, also be helpful to the look at students, black students beyond the hbcu. i encourage the authors to also look at the condition of football -- financial aid received, especially at institutions that are considered

predominantly black institutions to more precisely impact the racial wealth gap and racial debt gap. the authors have already begun to do this. well, i expect that the authors should be able to do this. they're well situated to do it, and i look forward to seeing new results on that. my other recommendations, to include other groups in the racial wealth and racial debt gaps as they move forward, which i've talked to sarah about, and i know this is part of the plan as well. but the racial wealth and racial debt gap may actually be more pronounced if you include latino and immigrant families, if they're factored into this gap comparison. our analysis, which i'll present later, actually show that in texas it is latino students who comprise the most economically disadvantaged students in four-year institutions. also the ssi story will be critical at these institutions the if we want to truly understand latino college

enrollment. and final hi, financial literacy and wealth. the authors welcome transparency which is a great recommendation. i encourage them to keep pushing for transparency in understanding the role of literacy and strategies associated with family wealth. thank you. >> thank you very much. our next commentator is brian bridges from the united negro college fund. >> good morning. i want to thank gary, first of all, and the civil rights project for convening this much-needed event, and i want to thank dr. kirkland from dillard university for providing in the contribution to today's proceedings. too often these conversations about research at hbcus take place without practitioners who conducted research at hbcus contributing to the discussion. so in my role at uncf, we work with 37 private hbcus, however, we know the importance of examining the broader hbc u-conn text.

uncf members are primarily liberal arts institutions, but i hope this demonstrates the need for funding to provide support research which is necessary in promoting the proposition. so gary is really cracking the whip on time here, and i've only got five minutes, so i want to highlight a few positives about the kirkland paper, provide a few suggestions, then briefly talk about implications. so i want to start out by identifying the fact that the kirkland paper provides empirical evidence that reinforces recent efforts by the hbcu community to promote continued access to much-needed financial aid dollars. the study also provides evidence that confirms financial aid matters when it comes to retention and especially student gpa. the last line being one that we don't have enough information on. the kirkland study also gives voice to an hbcu which are often reference inside sum total not considering the wide range of nuances that exist within the network. more campus-based hbcu research

of this caliber is needed to inform the work taking place on the ground and to inform the entire higher education community about not only the challenges faced by these institutions, but to also provide models for best practice. dr. kirkland's paper is filled with powerful findings that can inform the work of campus practitioners who serve low income students. now, a coup of suggestions. -- a couple of suggestions. the distribute i statistics alone tell us the story about students. most glaringly, is that the average amount of need has increased steadily for both return knees and nonreturnees. in fact, the unmet need for returning students increased at almost three times the rate. couple this with other findings from kirkland's study, and a troubling picture emerges that we have known has been taking place for some time, that hbcu students have increasingly encountered difficulty finding the funding necessary to make

their collegiate dreams a reality. while dr. kirkland does not highlight this increasing need, it is not something to be glossed over. the study identifies two variables, unmet need and the denial of plus loans that negatively impact first semester gpa. giving us evidence that illuminates the interaction of financial aid on what the study shows is the variable that is the most powerful predicter of early hbcu student success, and that is first smither gpa. now, a couple of ideas for future studies that i would like to see whether the plus loan denial impact on first or second-year retention b is entirely through its impact on first semester gpa, or are there other, more direct impacts on retention? in other words, is there more to the effect of a plus loan denial on a student being retained than its impact on their gpa? ..

gaining evidence tending for financial aid or inadequate aid impacts hbcus student performanperforman ce or noncognitive burials like self-esteem for motivation is a line of inquiry that will become more important as resources can didn't to shrink at the campus and federal levels. this study can serve as a platform for additional research. i am encouraged by dr. kirkland's examination of the impact of loan denials. african-american families were particularly hard hit by the

great recession adding to the difficulty of these families to send their kids to college. the time when institutions provide more merit-based aid and needs-based aid, state support for higher education continues to shrink over the long-term and the federal government makes legislative and policy changes that reduces access to aid and it should be understood by hbcus changes, against. plus changes resort. the paper also helps us than a hbcus and the students are disproportionately affected by changes to federal financial aid policy. especially given the financial background of those communities and families they serve. government policies can have a direct impact on disadvantaged populations and the institutions they attend. this paper confirms that an announce some plus loans impact on at least one hbcu shows this is an unfortunate impact of those with thousands fewer students approved for loans over the last couple of years israel.

students at the nation hbcus, the campaign, proposing new rules that will reopen the door for thousands of students at hbcu. research by practitioners like dr. kirkland business are dreaming vigilant for future cases like this. thank you. >> thank you very much. now we have the time we can ask questions. there's microphones here at the end of each file. so come forward quickly. while you coming forward ongoing to pick one of the authors. a lot of the problem with abuse of loans taking place in the for-profit sector. are we firing a cannon and hitting a wrong target as we try to restrict plus loans or other kinds of institutions? sera?

>> i mean, i think there's no question about where the challenges lie, although if you think the store for for-profit is the work computer that's been told thus far. i think are probably some that are engaged in behaviors that we should be concerned about, and others that may not be. but i think the fact of the matter is that we're trying to design our way to a policy solution that is overly complicated because we are unwilling to make simple statements about where our funds, our public dollars should go to any absence of having the guts to do that and drawing some lines in the sand about public use of public dollars, this is where we are. we're trying to back into solution that's going to cause harm to some of our greatest institutions. >> are there other questions? so i'd like to ask dr. kirkland,

now, the hbcu is defending the plus loans but they are burdensome for families who don't have the resources but anything. so it's a real -- to do something like sara was talking about, change the need for them in the pell grants so we can give students bigger grants to start with? >> yes, i would agree. what we found, it's an ongoing problem, is that students, you know, face stress about these issues in terms of financial impact, and you are correct in terms of parents who apply for the parent loan, our elected to want to do it. simply because meaning the parents have extremely -- many

of the parents have extremely low income. for example, their income is $20 a year, family income, and you go and you borrow 15 or $20,000 on plus loans, it creates a serious burden on a parent. so in many cases parents may not be able to repay that. i think if others were available that would preclude parents from having to seek a loan to close gap i think would be important. >> site think we had -- yes, go right ahead. ask your question. >> thank you, good morning. leslie baskerville, president and ceo of the membership association of the 105 historical black colleges and universities and unlike you think each one of you again for your time and for presenting this information to us, a special thanks to you, gary. given the trends that you talk

about in wealth, and given that there growing populations are low income, first generation students, tradition underresourced, underserved students, hispanic students, asian pacific islander and african-american students, and given that hbcus are proven to keep the cost, according to the college board, at least for private, $10,000 per semester lower than their historically white colleges, for public $2500 for their, per semester for the colleges, might we not come together around the idea of supporting and investing a cost of doing business, a cost of educating their growing population into the higher end they'll such that the colleges and universities that are doing the best jobs of educating the growing population get a bonus? >> what's the question, leslie? >> that's the question. is anything -- >> what are the implications for

the higher ed bill. >> not the implications. i have a specific. would you support a cost of education bonus to those colleges and universities like hbcus inc. pb eyes and hs eyes and doing the best job of educating, cost of doing business bonus? >> i think i probably would've. i think, look, i think that we do need some clear acknowledgment of where college is doing an exceptional job of meeting needs, right? i don't mean financial. i mean the commute is around them that they're serving. i like your phrase cost of doing business because, frankly, i think most of the colleges and universities in this country that open access institutions are not getting the financial support they need in order to do their business well. that is very strongly related to their underperforms in graduation rates. so we can the resource institutions with less money they need to provide high

quality remedial education. i would go one step further. i guess what i'm thinking is your proposal is very, very modest. i believe that these institutions are providing such a great service to the nation that historically have that we ought to a discussion about them becoming some fashion state-supported. we've done in the past when we've need to preserve institutions and preserve our investment in those schools. i think we should consider that and i'd like to a discussion about that. -- i like to hear a discussion about that. >> i would like to say one of the tenets that i like to present is that at dillard what we do is we take students with many challenges, and we graduate them, whereas other well-financed institutions with higher admission standards who

sort of cherry-pick off the top and get the top students, there's no variation in a population and it's easy because you get students who are highly motivated, who have strong pre-collegiate background. and i submit that dillard can probably graduate 99.5% of the students as well. the question becomes is that, if we were resourced, more properly resourced, then we would be able to overcome the challenge we face, financially. but i would challenge those institutions that graduate 90%, take a dillard students and graduate the same percentage we graduate. >> thank you very much. we can take one more really quick question. we have two minutes. >> howard university, assistant professor, recently at new mexico state university. the policy storyline here, you have the debate of merit versus

need-based scholarship conversation. and you have at least a political level kind of almost a debate that's winning in favor of the merit-based conversatio conversations, with larger based scholarships or your changes in admissions hide the default, low default rates in that conversation and sphere. the questionnaire is not as much as how we can transform at the state political level, the assumptions of financial aid, but more importantly how does reauthorization of the higher education act kind of connect to the very real challenge at the state level that just an example, you can lose this battle. yeah, they, core conversation where state-by-state there was literally a play-by-play, now you have a national conversation changing policy. how do we do that at the federal level to connect to that specific? >> thank you. would you like to comment on that? >> i think i understand your question.

i mean, certainly it's important to acknowledge that policymaking is occurring across our 50 states and that they're going to play a powerful role in how anything is done at the federal level actual play out. they can undermine or they can buttress the goal at the federal level. i think it's just really important that the reauthorization takes some strong stance in terms of the messages about what the purpose of, for example, the federal financial aid program is. and the purpose ought to be to make cost effective investments that transform people's lives. what we know from research on merit aid is a tacit a publisher that. it resources people who already have a leg up and it doesn't create much of a delta in the outcomes. that's inefficient. it's not a good investment, right? what we want to do is get people focus on where you can use these scarce resources to change lives. it's very clear that, for example, if you're going to have

limits on federal loans, heck, we would limit those access to those loans for the most upper-middle-class folks. but that's not what is being talked about here, is it? we are talking about institutions were upper-middle-class people don't go to school having lex -- having less access to lives. i think it's important for the federal government to take a lead for the states to get ahead around. >> to me, it boils down to politics. and good politics that you are looking for those voters who are going to help you get reelected. so one of the things you want to do is address communities, what we call louisiana, often in largess, you know. so what state legislators do is they look and they see that we can benefit the middle class, and that also allows the middle-class to support us in

electoral contests. so i think to get it to a national level, i think it has two sort of become -- it has to sort of become an issue that gains traction, and that where there's sort of reward to those who are serving in terms of being able to benefit from having more money go to fee-based as opposed to the merit-based resources. >> thank you very much. thanks to this panel for kicking off the conference in such a good way. thank you. [applause] >> i'd like to call up the next panel. bill. we'll have a break after the second panel.

[inaudible conversations] >> welcome you saw in our first those reflections of the difficulty of a policy environment now. we have financial inequality in the country, social inequality, loss of resources that has been very important, and rising tuition and costs, and higher education policy at the states being radically cut back, and too much shifted from the middle-class, to the middle

class from the pretty disadvantaged. and many families are in fairly desperate conditions are also desperate to get their kids in education that will give them a chance for a middle-class life. that's the dilemma we're facing. that's not easy, and we are going to move forward in this next panel to dig a little deeper with presentations by stella flores, could you met on the first help from vanderbilt university. professor marybeth gasman from university of pennsylvania. so who should go first? >> i will. spent and your timing? thank you. thank you again to the civil rights project and all the other sponsors. it's wonderful to be in this auditorium. and thank you to my co-authors, toby and dominique. let me start with our main message of the paper which is

this, college completion is not just a post secondary issue. the data we use out of the state administrative base in texas attack students from chemical all the way through graduate school down to the workforce in between. what we find is that what contributed to the gap in college completion by race actually much of that happens before the student ever enrolls in college. to problems or two issues framed a texas college success, or lack of success, in texas. the first is growing latino tomography. the general population but also the k-12 public schools were latinas now comprise the majority of all public school students. the problem is not that there's a growing acute tomography. the problem is the growth of latino high school graduates is not translating to enrolled in colleges and universities. with the black students what they saw a different story but no less important, we have seen an increase in enrollment for the black college implement for the black population.

that is this enrollment has not translate into completion, far from it, a very clear example of a success example of a successor once said the pipeline does not translate to the other side. instead we see in a previous paper that like sims are over when we going to community colleges for the first choice institution it is likely to decrease their odds of college completion. next slide. you can click through the aeros. that is the racial achievement gap, a racial college, human get is will the college completion gap in texas. you see here for students six your completion rate, the difference between white and hispanics is 13.1 -- 14.1%, with black and white students 21.9% between white and black students. next slide. so within sought to examine the sensitive and will and a four year college, what is the racial

and ethnic composition in key factors that influence college completion? we present three here. economic this event, academic preparation and percent minority in high school. in high school. in regards economic disadvantage comply could just as much more likely to be economically disadvantaged. hispanics are far represent the group of the highest economic disadvantage. in terms of we use perkinelmer to which is a signal for college completion come it's not as much a difference between white and hispanics to look at the difference between black and white students who take trigonometry but it's 23 percentage points, big problem in academic preparation in terms of minorities and high school we know racial concentration, segregated by but i must -- and integrated environment. he we see on average white students attended high school with her only 32% black and latino students while the register medical higher for

hispanic and black students, with double-digit with this band comprising the group attending the most racially concentrating schools. so we asked more directly what contributed to the completion gap by race and ethnicity what we call the racial completion gap by precollege characteristics and then post secondary factors. we use the literature and the data to guide these analyses. the precollege factors i can talk and more details for what they are but the represent individuals, characteristics, high school context, choices and curriculum and so forth. post secondary factors you can imagine institutional resources among other things. we use a nonlinear variance composition of the what the differences in the probability of college completion to explain characteristics and we explain approximate 94% of the model. next slide. this is what we find.

there are large differences between precollege and post secondary factors. we find precollege characteristics contribute upwards of 61% of the total variance in explain because completion gap for both hispanic and black students as compared to the white student counterpart. that is more than half of the completion gap for under rep as a minority student discipline but precollege characteristics. we then sought to unpack, explain the gap among the precollege k-6. next slide. -- precollege characteristics. what we see here is the different factors in economic, academic preparation, high school context and that compare to post secondary factors. what we see here, the lesson is that for hispanic students economic disadvantage seems to be driving the cab were as black and white students come academic factors is driving the gap in college completion by race but the signal, it signals, for

example, the rule of finances were latinas and while finances matter for black students, academic preparation represents by far the greatest gap in resources with a white student counterpart. much of her work has included the role of ms eyes, a diverse landscape of hsi's and hbcus. our previous work, not yet, our previous work look at the graduation rates of hispanic and black students at ms eyes compared to non-ms eyes, also a black inspections who attend on and this is because paper is different that it compares black and it's been a graduation rates to white students. we're going to see a different outcome. next slide, please. >> our results for this question using the decomposition method, indicate that there is a negative contribution of ms eyes

explaining the gap in college completion and this is important and alarming for the following reasons. msis underrating systems are likely to show that there negatively contributing to the graduation when, in fact, many of these factors that influence the completion gap may have occurred well before enrollment. for this cohort we see 12.9%, 37% of the post-secondary context is influenced by hsi status. hbcu rates, the contribution is 9%, rather 20% of the post-secondary influence is explained by hbcu status. these are 2002 numbers. previous show hsi's, the negative contribution has actually listened. the analysis isn't allowed to export the detailed treatment of being an hsi or hbcu. the identity are difficult to capture in our data set. however, a critical problem is eliminated when we compare

graduation rates to that of white students who are considerably more advantages resources and choices in post secondary institution to not only texas, but nationally. what can we learn from these analysis effort to move forward -- go ahead and sign the msi slide. you already did a. okay. what do women from his analysis if we're to move forward with the national college rating system? to be clear our paper does not suggest we are against a candidate or there's no place for accountability in higher education. however, we do recommend there be much more clarity on the contribution to disadvantaged systemic inequities the likelihood of outcomes of educational circumstances that are not likely to change before the rating system is put in place. as such we leave you with the following recommendation. again college completion is not just a post-secondary story.

failing to account for this result would penalize institutions in really large numbers of minority students. finally, given the role economic assistance and academic preparation in explaining the gap, interventions aimed at development of educational unwarranted. and really finally, innovative data systems to ac i could listn to go where the odds completion our most challenge is highly recommended. what we mean by this is that we have wonderful data sets that are useful in understanding the gaps in racial, achievement gaps and college completion gaps that ouare state databases that can also inform this question much better than our federal data set. and so we recommend some form of partnership in which we get the best data, the best research to form the best policy results that we can in this day and age. thank you. >> thank you, professor

florence. now we will turn to marybeth gasman. >> good morning, everyone. thank you to everyone for coming and thanks to all the sponsors, and gary as well. so this paper was written by myself and two of my research assistants, and an undergraduate student named danny. so what we try to do in our paper was provide a landscape of the nascent msis institutions that educate 20% of our college students, often times people forget that. so these institutions as we know and as most people have been saying today have a proven track record with first generation students, low-income students and students of color. if you could flick the slide, please. so this'll just give you a few numbers, give you an idea of what's going on on the msi lansky. one thing i want to point is that pell grants percentage. 50% of students at msis are

utilizing the pell grants which is really important. msis are known for their family life in private, known for success in develop mental education and even the department of education gets kind of kicked around a bit. there are many examples of its success. they're also known for the same race role models which is empowering to students of color. so in this era of accountability and outcome space by, msis are deeply vulnerable. because of their financial situation as some of the prisoners have explained and also to to the risk that they take. sara talked about this extensively as it's on the other presented to the risk that they take in enrolling many of the students at other institutions don't enroll. these risks result in an even outcomes for msis. so what we do in our paper is what arch policymakers to consider the unique contribution of msis, especially in three critical areas that i want to

highlight. you can go to the next slide. so one of the things that i noticed recently when i was reading the my brother's keeper report, issued by the obama administration is that there was only one line related to minorities serving institution in the entire report, and msis were pretty much left out of the report. so what i want you to do is just look for a minute at the role the msis are playing in educating men of color. so 36% of men of color with full-time enrollment are enrolled at msis. and if you look deeper you can see the percentages across the bridge racial and ethnic groups that are enrolled full-time at msis. then if you look at the part-time enrollment, its nearly 50%, 48.6%, of men of color with part-time enrollment are at msi. then if you start to look at the awarding of bachelors degrees you see the 24% of all the

bachelors degrees to men of color come from msis come and 22% of all the associates degrees to men of color. but they only ended up with one line in the my brother's keeper report. so we found that problematic and we really want to point to the contributions that msis are making with men of color. next slide. another area that we paid particular attention to is teacher education. and another thing that we been hearing, special from the department of education under this administration is an emphasis on the need for an increase in teachers, especially teachers of color. and how important that diversity is the young students of color. so one of the things that we notice is that msis are making considerable contributions in teacher education your the bulk of these degrees are due to

hispanic serving institutions, and that's important to point out. we do want to also point out the conferral of degree by msis in teacher education area. and we also in the paper talk about the fact that many of the teachers that are educated at msis and went back to the charities from which they came. so they go back to urban and rural communities, and msis are collecting data on those teachers who go back to those communities. those are communities that have high concentration of students of color. next slide. another thing that we talk about in the paper is the contributions of msis interest in area. these are fairly well known. our nation instead to need 1 million steam workers and we also need much greater diversity in the area of s.t.e.m. they're been countless papers,

sylvia hurtado to assist and work in this area is what it shows us many msis are doing a disproportionate job in the s.t.e.m. area. we don't necessarily know exactly what they do and my sin is working on some projects related to that, but will we do in the paper is we point out these contributions that they are making in the area of s.t.e.m. what i want to stress here is for us of these are three critical areas that are being talked about widely across the country. we hear a lot about the shortages of teachers, how can we make teaching a career that more people want to get into? we hear much about men of color, especially right now i'm and we also hear about our great needs in the area of s.t.e.m. what we would like to urge people to do is when they are thinking about how institutions are funded, to think about how msis contribute in these critical areas. so we have a variety of recommendations for policymakers. i'm just going to go over three.

these include -- so for policymakers one of the things that i think that we find most disturbing is the way that msis are left out of discussions. and how their contributions are not included in major national reports and discussions. we see this over and over but even though there are many people in this room who try adamantly to get the contributions of msis into these national discussions. so what we say is that we don't think that these national reports should be issued or that legislation should be put forward at msis are not part of that discussion. we also recommend for msis dad institutions, not only larger, overreaching organizations, which already doing this, that institutions work together in coalitions across the there is msi sectors. this can easily be done within states. they can also be done in a

variety of other ways, institutions that have similar programs, similar curricular issues, similar financing. we are getting the sides to work together because in silos their strength is really zapped. but when you have come when you have nearly 600 msis in the country and they are educating 20% of college and university students, you have a lot more strength. another thing we recommend for researchers and policymakers is to focus on what works and what is successful. a long time ago when i was a brand-new professor, my mentor was a seat hilliard -- a sailor. he passed away a few years ago, one of the things he told me is we really know what works. we just don't pay attention. i believe the. i think one of the things that msi can show us is what worked with low income students of color and first generation students.

we have many, many examples of what a successful. i think we should look to msis for how to be more successful rather than the way that we tend to approach in a size which you see what we can do for them. i think we should look at msis and see what they can teach the rest of the nation. thank you. >> thank you very much. first, return a response from one of our partners. >> can everyone hear me? well, thank everyone for all the hard work in putting this together. i want to bring my responses with more of a policy lands. i think what her paper and our colleagues have done is twofold. one, acknowledge what we and public policy know, that the train has left the station on the issue of accountability we are not going to get away with

just saying we are different ago with a critical mass of students with additional needs, so don't hold us accountable. i think none of us want that, and so the second part of what i appreciate they put together was looking at how do we identify a fair assessment, and evaluation of these institutions that have a critical mass of students enrolled. and that becomes a challenge for us figure out how do we take the good analysis of done and operationalize it in a manner where we prioritize simplicity over accuracy. and we all have a certain measure of adhd in terms of what our priorities are in the moment. if we can't put it in a bullet, if we can't make a concise, then it's a difficult thing to implement. that's the kind of pragmatism we do. we try and translate really good research into public policy. i was thinking a lot about and i wanted to push the researchers a little bit but also at --

>> maybe we should enact a sound bites? >> yes. i will. i have five minutes, right? three minutes now. so yes. >> what if we took the existing information and data that is being bandied about as you've seen in other places and try to wait it by the issues that are raised in the paper that stella put together. the reality is we don't want to different forms of accountability. that's not the way to approach this. we have to approach it in a manner that doesn't let the institutions off the hook either for a high concentration of students that have income needs and of college readiness needs overall. so how do we make sure to stella and her team sport, we create a fair system? so how about if we took a look -- i will offer this as his digestion -- with the data we currently collect, ways to wait

what is in some ways a relatively perverse we're looking at institution efforts at -- what if we took, make sure completion rate, not graduation rates, completion rates at information on part-time and transfer students? that's not included in so many of these institutions have a higher concentration of low income students and are not given the credit for what they're doing with transfers and part-timers. national clearinghouse has data on this. there are ways we have to focus on holocaust perspective to the data to make sure that happens. what if we look at financial aid, which the paper race is critical for latinos and others that certainly the economic this binge of factor and we waited we put together an accountability system by the percent of students receiving pell or financial aid. we took a look at the college choices and structures and what kind of quality is provided in weight based on that. for college readiness is critical for african-americans,

we look at the percent remediation, the percent that are retained and those who drop out as factors but that doesn't only for these institutions but i can assure you for look at those factorsconsulates look at multiple measures, we're going to get more balanced approach, perfect? no. that does exist in the world in education but better but i think we owe it to the students of the institutions of taken on educating those who are in most need to make sure the getting the quality education that they deserve, our citizenry deserves, and to workforce over all. the other, these all day there currently collected, perfect but they are collected. the last is we do collect information on institutions that are high enrollment and low educational general expenditures as a way to include the financial component and the way i do think we are thinking significantly about that can address accountability. what we can't do is let the k-12

system off the hook. we can't let institutions of higher education also can't say because with students that have additional needs, that would lower expectatiexpectati ons of the students on institutions that are enrolled. >> thank you very much. we will turn now to my ucla colleague, sylvia hurtado. >> thank you but i'm commenting on marybeth gasman's paper and our colleagues. if you haven't read the paper i'm -- you should read it if not know much about the minority serving institutions, it's a good, easy, fast descriptive analysis of what minority serving institutions are, and more importantly i think the focus of diversification in the workforce in areas of national importance are key in terms of really having all that data in one place. it's a great paper in that regard. i want to say also they really focused on key national areas of importance that teacher

education, s.t.e.m. degrees which we know at the individual, for individuals that's what the highest paying jobs are going to be in the future. and also that's what we already national have indicated that will be a key area for enhancing american competitiveness. in the issue of minority males. and all those instances the data in this paper show that if there are anything to impact even financing of these institutions or the financing of the students, that we would see serious drops in terms of the representation of various minorities, low-income and first generation students in teacher education, in s.t.e.m. and, of course, in the completion rates of minority males. i think the important pieces that she also brings to the paper are, first, that the stories of minority serving institutions are still not entirely evident to the nation

and, in fact, was allowed to educate publishers and editors about what these are. all the time we try to put some of our publications out. and so sometimes are left out of the discussion as she will point out in terms of national report. though they can be severely impacted by any decisions that are made nationally. one of the things i think probably we need to talk more about is understanding the research capacity of these institutions. because i think both marybeth, myself and several of us on this panel have really been looking at minority serving institutions in trying to really tell the story, but i think really each institution also asked to develop its own research capacity anyway earlier in the earlier session began shouting doing their own studies. our work has indicated that very often that they don't have the institutional research staff. the data i very hard to gather,

and particularly tribal colleges have a huge deficit in terms of being able to pull together the resources to not only report the data but also monitor and attract students. this is are important because it points to an institutional research issue. second, i think the paper really shows an important point in terms of the competence are evident even with fewer resources. these institutions are doing something for the nation. and i think i value, for example, the first time i've seen the contributions of two-year institutions that are minority serving institutions in this paper and i think you for doing the analysis. the first point, and this was something that is obscured in the paper and i want you to talk more about is that diversity should be part of the magic. i think that's what debra santiago and was beginning to say, how do you incorporate that into the matter? one size fits all is not going to result because challenges are different for these

institutions. their resources are different and also they are still making contributions. i want to kind of opened it up if we could speak more about how diversity might be part of a metric, a national rating system endeavor has talked about a possible rating component but also that the notion of social equity and diversity have to be a consideration in all of this. >> thank you very much, sylvia. now there are three microphones up here in the front, so please come up right away. we have rush everybody a long to save time for your questions. go right ahead. >> thanks so much to the palace. i'm in awe of the research presented today. with the competing interests that higher ed has now with higher and will become the general a lot of international students, out of state students, et cetera per state regarding funding. how might the focus stay on closing the racial college

completion gap at msis and hsi's? >> stella? >> so i think that's a very good question. you know, my perspective comes from not only looking at the post-secondary sector, so again, the part that comprises the racial completion gap is not only what happens at the institution. and so this doesn't preclude us from enrolling more students from other countries are more diverse students, but again i'm going to push that if we talk about the racial completion gap it's not just what is agreed at the institution. so this idea that the high schools in particular, k-12, and be let off the hook so more collaboration, more conversations of if we're going to keep her graduation rates up, this is not a conversation that should only stay -- summit.

>> yes. we make choices every day, right? and institutions of higher ed because they're getting less public support, having to find means. they have to enrolled international and out of state students to make the bottom line and does that squeeze out the very kinds of latinos and african-americans are becoming the majority in the college population. i think so but i think the reality is that it doesn't have to be that way. we're making the choices because expediency and facility. and reaching back to our core as to why we we are institutions and what we do i think his primary for us to consider who it is enrolling, why we're doing so. and then why are building institutions accountable if were going through a process of students and we haven't educate intersystem. that's not to say we shouldn't enrolled out of state student with around is if we're putting primacy to the bottom line financially and not who we are serving and finding that to

bounce into what i don't think we're doing a service to public institutions. >> you know, at our campus at ucla we get less than 10% of our budget from the state of california. so this year there will be 30% students from outside california on our campus. which is basically survival strategy, but if we had a higher education act that gave recognition, because we have a very high level of pell grants and a lot of diversity on her campus. it would give universities a different incentive if they were given additional recognition or funding as a result of those kinds of enrollment, rather than being punished for them i cutting their budget. >> thank you. >> i'm from the american dental education association. my question is for marybeth gasman. thank you, first of all -- the

question that i have for you though is when it comes to conversation about msis, i used to differentiate between hbcus predominate like institutions, so someone else order talked about hbcus. predominate like institutions, i just as not the same as hbcu, are they being left out when you're giving specifics about black students at hbcus? they should or they should not be included? this is more of a clarifying question. thank you. >> historically black threats of a completely different entities and predominate black institution. if you're doing research on historical black colleges and universities, or hbcus, which are institutions created with the express purpose of educating african-americans prior to 1965, right? so that research typically is not going to include pbi's invention include them. with our center we do come we do

pay attention to pbi's but if her research is on hbcus, like we have a big s.t.e.m. project sponsored by the helmsley trust. that's a project that involves 10 hbcus. one thing i would say there is that the outcomes in s.t.e.m. for pbi's are different than they are or hbcus. so i think they are just two different pots. leslie leads and workstation that represents both, and so i do think that pbi sneed attention because they are growing in similar ways, not at the same rate, but in similar ways to hsis, right? but they are two separate groups and they have very, very different history. pbi's used to be majority institutions. in fact, some of them even have separate alumni groups. so they're just very, very different, but we want to do research related to both kinds

of institutions, but i would say that pbi's get a lot less attention. >> okay. >> so there's a lot less research on pbi's. >> a lot less research. there's hardly any research on pbi's. >> thank you. >> any of you out there looking for a good dissertation? >> one thing i would say is they're very frustrated by that. i often have president of pbi's that call and say why doesn't anyone care about our institution? why doesn't anybody want to do research related to our institutions? so it is a ripe area and they're looking for attention. >> yes? >> hi. i'm with the national science foundation. i am still for leading my question, but two things. first, i'm delighted the workforce issue came up, particularly the issues around s.t.e.m. and my question is for stella and for deborah. you know, we have this huge

policy shift taking place in the k-12 air a, schools, which is called common core in the next generation of -- the analytics on that in terms of minority students, and in particular english language learners is that the number of dropouts is going to increase significantly. and those that are prepared for college, it's going to really shift. and i'm wondering in terms of the pre-college peace what can we do? we know some of those issues in terms of identifying youngsters are going to be struggling, getting into college. and i'm wondering what we can do, and deborah, i'm wondering if the data points are the analytics that you're thinking about in terms of a data set that we need should not start in college but way beforehand? if that makes sense.

>> okay. so i think you bring up some very good points. let me start with this idea of access, i'm kind of reframing your question, to reverse course is. we actually use this database to look at the success or cause access success and found something very important. and that relates to the timing in the program and we found that latino students who participate for three years are actually likely to do better than latino students who wavered out of any program participation, although qualified to do. so what we're seeing in texas is that so program for suspicion for elo students does not hinder the college access, but more than that leads them down a different path. the big east point of mobility

here for those students, this translates for other groups, is access to the rigors coursework in high school. so how common core is going to play out, texas is a deficit with common corporate have got their own version. but we do know that rigor matters. and elo suits are more likely to not have access to those courses. as we look forward, elo, we've got to reframe it as not just exiting the program and learning english, but interests into the rigors coursework for college access. >> i will pick up the second half of the question. in the paper there is a clear reference to looking at k. 20 database and that's what the data are based on. so the papers are in the announcer. i think that reinforces your point about the date overall. i would say that while not

identical those data points i raised are collected in some manner in k-12 as opposed to present help the grad students produce the i and free and redud lunch. it's kind of our basic proxy of the federal level for income level. suite of some ways in k-12 to track it. the challenges we does a great deal of variance, on the very things that the paper, stella and others raised, we don't see great changes in economic mobility at the k-12 level and that's often why we look in financial aid and say, you can, you know, apply and have a year waiting. you will not see big differences. so the challenge becomes how do we create public policy that intervenes given the data we currently have? i think the data are there. we are not using them, and making sure whether it's at the k-12 or higher ed level, we are waiting appropriate for the route of these populations is that we have to do a better job of. >> let me and really quick with the latino white preparation gap

while big is still frankly i'm surprised not as big as i thought it was going to be. the biggest gap of concern and academic preparation, and this will translate to ever common core picks up from is a black-white preparation get the there something happening in the school were latinas by begin more access to black students to rigorous coursework. that's a real point of concern when we see differences in racial participation order of coursework. >> thank you very much. very good question. just take a second at the end to say, some of this panel relates to other work that we are doing. let me take your question come if it's a quick one. >> yes, thank you so much. i'm with the naacp legal defense and educational fund. i had a quick question for ms. santiago. in terms of -- understand your point about not making a double standard having two different assessments, and looking more

towards waiting different factors. how would you factor in and wait the preparation k-12 lack of preparation in mediation issues with minority serving institutions? and if i can sneak in one less question to ms. glassman. she conduct by the impact on minority serving institutions on women of color as well as men of color. thank you. >> i'll try to be fast. how to weight the k-12 preparation, preparation college readiness. so things that identify, so there is based -- we do a lot with the data are ready to weight the data that are after. i'm not going to get into the complicated part of that, but we do have elements and what% of students are taking remediation? we know that. that's a proxy at the college level for academic preparation at the k-12 level. we can do something with it. that's something i would

definitely wait. the concentration of students who don't complete what we called the gateway courses, the 101 courses. that's clear. we know that data. we should be able to use them and look at what institution of doing. if you have a high concentration of latinos and african-americans in 101, i think for me complete she is the gulf. enrollment is a necessary component. you can't complete if you haven't enrolled. but look at the profile of the student who are enrolling is going to be weighted by the concentrated mass of students. >> great. so in this paper we did focus on men of color because we try to focus on three critical areas that the nation is calling out right now. in a previous paper that i wro wrote, one of my former students, we wrote a paper that looks at the gains of women of color but it specifically at

black colleges. i haven't looked at that across all msis, but at black colleges if i were to be completely frank, the success of black colleges is due to women of color. i mean, to black women. the success is much higher with regard to black women. it is especially high in the area of s.t.e.m. they are making really, really great contributions in that area. so i haven't looked across all msis. it would be a great thing to do. we have that david and could look at that, but it's a really good question. >> i would like to add though in our analysis in texas, black males disproportionately overwhelmingly choose to go to a hbcu over white, or black females. so while the stories of black women obviously need to be present in the conversation, the hot spots of where black males are attending college, at least in texas, they overwhelmingly

choose in hbcu. >> i wanted to take a minute at the end before we think the panelists, just comment, you can find on the website of the civil rights project a lot of relevant studies that relate to pre-college preparation. we have shown in our recent study in california, for example, segregating california's future that latinas used to be in predominant white schools in california. they are now in 86% nonwhite schools, 75% poverty. african-americans are in a very silly situation but mostly in as minorities within latinos. these schools have much less availability of qualified teachers with experience, especially in mathematics and science. they are very unstable schools in terms of enrollment in many cases. these are schools that are

systematically segregated and unequal. if we take those students and willing to take a chance at them and punish the colleges for taking them, we would be making a one crisis into another and cutting off mobility in a very serious way. so it's very important that we think about all of these things simultaneously. and i know it's hard in an environment, it sounds like to do that, but it's essential that we keep those things in our mind. so now after these two incidents panels, let me thank this panel very much for a very illuminating discussion. [applause] >> we are not going to give you a human break for 10 minutes. ..

[inaudible conversations] >> so a short break now, about ten minutes, as you heard, in this conference on problems facing minority students seeking a college education. we will re