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tv   Key Capitol Hill Hearings  CSPAN  September 9, 2014 9:00pm-11:01pm EDT

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justice programs funs are available for law enforcement agencies to use to purchase body cameras and we see value in it. our national institute of justice is studying the effectiveness of body cameras and appropriate use of body cameras. >> but they can buy them now? >> yes, ma'am. >> it wouldn't be hard if we decided before you get anything else we are going to insist you use our money for body cams before you buy other things like full blown battle gear or grouflage .. .. .. do not control how state and local jurisdictions use the money. >> video cameras are on the authorized equipment list. if a grantee came forward and said they believe body cameras for law enforcement would serve purposes for which the program is authorized in terms of
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preparing capabilities for terrorism, operational coordination, situational awareness we would consider that an allowable expense. >> are you aware of local police department that is purchasing an mrap with their own funds? >> i'm not and n't i couldn't answer that question. the local police department buys it. >> i was around here but according to my briefing here, the first program was authorized in the defense authorization bill. primarily about the drug wars. is that correct? >> that's correct. >> what were local police departments missing that they needed to be funded or given from the defense department to combat the war on drugs. >> let me be clear. we do this because we're asked to do this. >> i understand. >> what -- what equipment were -- >> police departments were
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outgunned by drug gangs so they were looking for protection and fire power. >> this was expanded in 1997. my note says based on lobbying from police organizations. >> i can't answer why the authorization was expanded. at the time it was for counterterrorism, lobbied for police organizations. >> there's always a great desire to get free things from the federal government. correct? >> of course. >> this program, which is parentally provided by $5.1 billion of free equipment since 1997, all been free, correct? >> yes. it's not free to the taxpayer. we bought and it used -- >> free to local governments. >> that's correct. >> free to local police departments. >> yes, sir, senator. >> do you know too many police departments that turn free things down? >> again, not in the position of a local police department, but if something was available and they thought they needed it -- because they have to sustain this equipment. if it that useful to them, why
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not? >> mr. kamoie the money that dhs was granted, has there been any -- that's grant money, correct? >> yes, senator. >> is there any cost-sharing associated with that. >> in several of the programs the port security grant program, for example in some years, the -- there is a cost sharing requirement in the -- >> how much? of the $41 billion, how much -- >> given that the cost share requirement was imposed in some years and not we have to follow up with you. but the emergency management performancant program, $350 million a year, a 50% cost share in that. >> have we multiplied that by another $40 billion? has it been a 50% cost share, we may be talking -- basically grant $41 billion of funds for the purchase of this type of equipment and local governments have maybe contributed a billion? >> well, we'll have to follow up
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with you. just to be clear, senator, the over 040 bill is not just law enforcement. there's a lot of other purposes for the program. s. port security, transit security, our firefighter programs, staffing for emergency managers and firefighters -- >> again, when people get things for free, get a lot of money, one of the first things my wife as an irs agent learned, first government phrase was, use it or lose it. and that is just concerning how you put money to work. miss mason, the $4.4 billion granted by the depth of justice since 2005, that hat had any kind of cost-sharing requirement. >> the jag money is formula money that does not require cost sharing from local governments. but for example, this year, we awarded $280 million in grants. those are spread between the 56 u.s. states and territories and local governments. so for 80% of the grants, jag
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grant, the average award size is only $30,000. >> are you aware of any piece of equipment that is either given away for allowed to be purchased? i'm talking about tess defense department. any pieces of equipment given away that would not be available for purchase by local police department? or are they all available on the open market. >> an mrap is not available. >> when i watt in production, any restrictions in terms of people being able to buy that? >> i'd have to go back and look at that. probably the restriction, it was unavailable. >> my point being, we're making the decision at the wrong level here. if local police depths actually needed this equipment, if they felt it was necessary, isn't the proper way of doing this is have them go through anywhere city councils and states and make the political case for armoring up
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to protect themselves, whether it's against drug lords or counterterrorism? i can understand the federal in terms of information sharing and potentially communication devices so we can provide that information, but hasn't this gone out of control simply because the federal government is there, we're just granting money, and people are going to use it? >> i guess from my perspective, senator, we have bought this stuff. there's no -- from the department of defense. it's no longer needed -- the states need to make that decision on whether they need this type of equipment, and in fact they do, and that's the funnel. senator the state coordinator appointed bay governor makes the decision on whether a local police force, after a request by a local police force, needs it or not. >> prior these programs in place did any police department have any of this type of equipment? ever use their own funds and purchase this type of equipment? or its only because it's
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available, it's given to them for free? i'll take some of senate that would be a neat thing to have parked in our garage. >> i'm not an expert in local policing but police forces certainly have army vehicles and had weapons. >> senator in our port security grant program we fund a lot of police boats that patrol the waterways of our nation's over 100 ports. the cost-share requirement for that has varied over a year, year withs year, but in many years it's been 25%. so the local jurisdiction has to make a decision about those investments and i don't have the entire history, but i would imagine that in our port cities before the port security grant program was created, that many of them likely did acquire police vessels to secure the port. >> i would like that information in terms of how much cost sharing, and looking for a solution, that would be it right there. i think people need to have skin in the game. these decisions in terms of what type of equipment is going to be
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purchased need to be made at the local level. they have show to their citizens -- i'm all for appreciation of the police department. senator baldwin, representative attended a congressional badge of courage ceremony -- badge of bravery for lieutenant brian murphy and officers sam lenda in the oak creek zig massacre, and we see a video of these brave, courageous public safety individuals, just walk straight into danger. so we're all about making sure these officials are protected, but the decision needs to be met at the local level, not the federal government. this is the problem we have when we make the decision at the wrong level of government. >> we'll provide that information. >> senator baldwin. >> thank you. i was pleased and somewhat relieved to see attorney general holder and the justice department announce that they
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will independently investigate not only the shooting of michael brown but also the policing practices of the ferguson and st. louis county police forces. i think that department of justice investigations like these serve a critical role in maintaining and in some cases rebuilding public confidence in law enforcement. i'd like to know from our panelists if the grant programs administered by each agency look at whether a state or local law enforcement agency is under active investigation for civil rights or civil liberties violations, or has a history of those violation. mr. esteves, the statute that authorizes the 1033 program requires the secretary of defense to carry out the program in consultation with the
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attorney general. what is it the nature of the consultation between the department of defense and the department of justice on this program and is there a discussion of whether a law enforcement agency is under investigation for the possible deprivation of constitutional rights? >> senator baldwin, the consultation with the department of justice is one of the areas rear, frankly, lacking, that we need to do a better job of. we'll look at under the administration's review and will discuss that. so we need do a better job there i will say -- >> well, currently -- and i will accept your statement at face value you can do better. currently in that consultation is the matter of an open or closed investigation into civil rights or civil liberties def privilege vacation part of your discussion or consultation? >> no. >> and there is any reason why it could not be in the future?
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>> of course it could be. >> okay. mr. cameo is there coordination between the department of home lean security and the department of justice on the programs you administer on these same questions. >> thank you, senator bammed win. we certainly coordinate on the risk elements of the recommendations for the secretary. the risk norm la is prescribed by statute. it's a combination of threat, vulnerability, and consequence, and the elements of each of those are laid out in the statute to answer your specific question, no, we do not take into account whether a law enforcement organization is under investigation for potential deprivation of civil rights and civil liberties. >> miss mason, in administering the burn jag program, within
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department consultation and discussion, did those issues get discussed? >> thank you for the question, senator. the burn jag grants are formula money and we have very little discretion over how that money is used, but the civil rights division does coordinate with our office when they're doing investigations and as they develop their consent decrees and we work closely with them in designing the con content of the consent decree. >> tell me more about the consultation and how it plays into decisions. >> there are two factors. the office of justice programs has its own office of civil rights that makes sure that all of the grant programs for the department comply with civil rights laws. if the civil rights division is
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investigating one of our grantees, they typically will coordinate with our office of civil rights. we will monitor things, and in -- and as the process proceeds, have input into whatever agreement is reached between the department with that agency. >> thank you. i want to move to the issue of training. especially in the 1033 program. we have heard in testimony that billions of dollars worth of surplus military equipment has been transferred to state and local law enforcement agencies, including some significantly sophisticated materials previously operated by trained military personnel, primarily in combat situations for some of that equipment.
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this includes, as we talk about. mrap, armored vehicles, grenade launchers, assault rifles. we certainly have great confidence in the skills of our first responders, but these pieces of equipment are not traditional police equipment, and maybe very unfamiliar to many police officers and sheriff's deputies in communities across this country. so understand that defense logistics agency conducts biennial interview of the states that participate in the 1033 program but this effort appears to be focused simply on corroborating that the transferred equipment is accounted for. can you tell me if the dla review, mr. esteves, or even the original application process makes any inquiry at all as to whether the agency has the appropriate training or access to the appropriate training to use and maintain this equipment,
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or if after the fact the equipment is being properly used? >> dla, defense logistic agencies doesn't have that capability. neither does the department of defense as whole weapon can't manage local police forces. even equipment we're trained to use is for combat operations, not local policing operations, and we do not provide grenade lawn issue -- launchers so the state certifies a local police department that is going to receive the item has the ability to train themselves to use it, they're going to get a helicopter, they have a pilot. and the state coordinator certifies that the local police force has the ability to sustain the equipment that they're going to be providing. >> and what confidence do you have that level of inquiry is happening at the state
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coordinator level, if it's not happening under your supervision? >> i think that frankly varies by state coordinator, but i think state coordinators in the last number of years have actually put more attention and due diligence on that process, and we found that as we -- we did a fullout review of the whole program with the state coordinator, suspended all the states but a of accountability issues, and during that process we found the state coordinators are focusing their attention on those issues, senator. >> mr. cam kamoi are there similar requirement in the audit process for training, for proper maintenance of equipment? what sort of accountability can you share with this committee in the department of homeland
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security? >> we encourage training for grantees. it's an allowable expense under our programs. we do not require training but we do offer training through the department center for domestic preparedness, for responders and the department's federal law enforcement training center. so we do offer it. we encourage it but do not require training. >> miss mason, i believe you already testified that training is one of the applicable -- is one of the things that can be funds through grants. can you talk about the training opportunities available in burn jag? >> yes. the training opportunities -- burn jag funds may be used for training, but separate and apart from our jag funding, the department of justice -- the office of justice programs provides a full range of training opportunities for law enforcement. over the last three years we have put together approximately
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100 online training courses. we also have many webinars on various issues. we survey the law enforcement to find out what training classes and things they need, but it is part of our mission to make sure that we provide a range of training opportunities for state and local government. >> thank you. >> senator paul. >> i think many of us were howeverred by some images that came out of ferguson. here feed be seeing an unarmed man with hands over his head confronted by an are mayor el personnel carrier, man constant fronted by man with a drawn assault weapon. horrified by images of tear gas being shot into the yards of people's personal homes who were protesting. one over to fundamental things about america is desscent, and it needs to be peaceful and there needs to be repercussions
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for people who do not enact a peaceful way but confronting protester is with armored personnel character is unamerica and we have kept the military out of policing affairs but you obscure that separation when you allow the piece to become the military in fema's list there's written descriptions for how the equipment should be used and says it's specifically not supposed to be used for riot suppression. mr. kamoi, is that true, not supposed to be used for riot suppression, and how do you plan on policing that since the images clearly show us large pieces of equipment bought with the grantses used in the protest suppression. >> that is accurate. the categories of personal protective equipment that include helmets, ear and eye protection, ballistics, personal protective equipment, is a prohibit base in the authorized
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equipment list that is not be used for riot suppression. >> what will you do about it? >> follow the lead of the department of justice's investigation about the facts. we're going to work with the state of missouri to determine what pieces of equipment were grant funded, and then we have a range remedies available to us should there be any finding of noncompliance with the requirements, everything from corrective action plans to ensure it doesn't have again, recoupement of funds. so we'll look closely at the facts and allow the investigation to run its course and determine what the appropriate remedy is. >> but gets back to the whole question, if you're a police force anywhere in the country, from dundee, michigan, 3900 to 25 cities have mraps. they think they're for riot suppression but many of the
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police forces think the equipment would be go for riot suppression in a big city, urban area, you're specifically instructed it's not for that, and we have had maybe two instances of terrorism. we spend billions and billions of dollars and two instances of terrorism. so i think really by supplying all of this free equipment, much of which is just frankly inappropriate and shouldn't be on anybody's list of authorized equipment, mr. esteves, in the npr investigation of the 1033 program, they list that 12,000 bayonets have been given out. what purpose are bayonets being given out for? >> senator, the bayonets are available under the program. i can't answer what a local police force would need -- ii can give you an answer. none. so what's the president obama's administration's position on handing out bayonets to the police force? it's on your list. you guys create the list. you're going to take it off the
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lest? >> we're going to look at what we're providing under the administration's review of all these programs -- >> so it's unclear at this point whether president obama approves of 12,000 bayonets being given out. i think you can make that decision last week. >> i think we need to review all the equipment we're providing, senator. is a said, we, the department of defense do not push any of this equipment on any police force. the states decide what they need. >> my understanding is that you have the ability to decide what equipment is given out and what equipment is not given out. if you decided to tomorrow, if president obama decided tomorrow that mine resistant ambush protection, 20-ton vehicles are not appropriate for cities in the united states, he could decide tomorrow to take it off the list. you could decide this tomorrow. my question is, what is the administration's opinion on giving out mine resistant ambush protection, 20-ton vehicles to tons across america? are you for it or against it. >> obviously, we do it. we're going look at that.
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i will also say i can give you anecdotes where mine resistant an busch vehicles protected police forces in shootouts. >> but we have already been told they're only supposed to be used for terrorism? isn't that the rule? >> a rule is for counter-drugs, which could have been the shoot you i have to look at the incident. counter-narcotics, counterterrorism. >> i guess the point i wish to make is that these are fairly simple problems and common-sense applied years ago, we could have fixed these. we'll maybe fix them, although i have my doubts because i have seen rarely anything ever fixed in government but i would say we're now responding to a tragic circumstance in ferguson to do this. but i think that i find these decisions to be very easy to make. just shouldn't be giving out mine resistant vehicles. bayonets, no excuse. i don't understand why we have to get together and have a study
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for months to decide bayonets are inappropriate to give out. i can't imagine any use for a bayonet in an urban setting. so really, this has gotten out of control and this has largely been something that the militarization of police is something that has gotten so far out of control, and we have allowed it to descends with not a great protection of civil liberties. it's okay if it's for drugs. look at the instances of what happened in recent times. the instance in georgia a couple months ago of an infant in a crib, getting a percussion grenade thrown in through a window in a no-knock raid. the infant obviously wasn't involved in the drug trade but neither was the family. they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. no one was indicted on this. this is crazy out of control, and giving military equipment and with a breakdown of the whole idea of due process,
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no-knock raids and not having judges issue warrants anymore, you can see how this gets out of control and people are concern about what is going on here. i see the response so far to be lackluster and i hope you'll do a more complete job in trying to fix this. >> senator aot. >> i want to thank all the witnesses for being here and certainly think center mccaskill and the ranking member for having this hearing. so, what i wanted to understand in particular, mr. esteves, as you have described the 1033 program, it is -- you have a state coordinator and then dod does not decide what equipment is needed. you're just relying on that state coordinator for those decisions. >> that's correct. i should point out that the governor of the state has the state coordinator, not us, and we rely on the state to filter
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those decisions. >> there is any followup in terms of what the equipment is being used for, and what type of training the police departments that are receiving it have been -- have obtained when the equipment is transferred? >> state coordinators, in certifying that the local agency needs that, certify they're going to have the available training and train themselves on that equipment. >> do you do any types of followup other than receiving the certification? there is any kind of audit of what is happening? and what -- how the equipment is being glued. >> there is no followup on how the equipment is being used or what -- for the program because we provide 96% of what we provide is noncontrolled, benign equipment. we follow up -- >> what i'm referring those i should have been specific on the controlled equipment, obviously, office furniture you wouldn't generally have a followup on. >> but we follow up on
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accountability of the equipment. we retain title to that equipment. but we do not follow up on it, senator. >> so, do you think with this process that is being reviewed right now, not only the president but the congressional oversight that will be had here, that the way the system is working right now, the dod has some responsibility to not just -- to have a followup in terms of what is being done with this equipment? >> i think that has to be part of the look at what we're doing review. i think from speaking from the department of defense's standpoint, it's very hard for us because we don't have access to police forcing. that's not what we do, whether it's appropriate or not appropriate use. i can look at the pictures of ferguson like everybody else in this room but that has to be part of the dialogue and discussion about what we're going to do and how we assess use of equipment.
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>> mr. kamoie, i want to ask -- i don't know if i'm pronouncing your name correctly. >> you are. >> thank you. i don't know if you're the appropriate person to ask this question, but on the homeland security front, what type of oversight is there in terms of the 1033 equipment? is homeland have any oversight over the receipt of that? >> we do not. >> there is any coordination between the grants that home lean is -- homeland is giving in light of what the deposits are receiving on the 1033 front? >> we don't coordinate in the decisionmaking about local law enforcement requests. the process that mr. esteves has laid out, we don't coordinate that at all. >> you wouldn't necessarily even know on issue ago a homeland grant what the dod has done in terms of issuance of equipment to local agencies?
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>> correct. >> so how do you then know that in terms of the use of the homeland grants for this, that there isn't -- shouldn't be some followup? >> that's an entirely different story. i will say on the -- i know the defense department's equipment under the 1033 program is free. grantees have paid for, i believe, transportation costs, using grant funding, but it's a very small percentage of use of grant funds. so in terms of how grandees use equipment that has been acquired with our programs, the -- for the state program, even the urban area programs, the grants pass through the state, 80% of the state program funding has to go to local jurisdictions wasn't the state. so we work with the state in oversight. in their applications, they tell us more and more detail now about the projects they intend,
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certainly we have the ability to drill down in, as we're doing with the state of missouri, and follow up on use of the equipment to ensure that it meets program requirements. so, we have this ability. we do not have real-time visibility on all acquisitions made at the local level but work with our state partners we can get pretty good visibility. >> can i ask -- i would like opinion from all of you. we focused a lot, understandably so, on these programs and the military style equipment to agencies in a ferguson type situation. what i'd like to know is the use of the equipment whether it's from homeland security -- how have we evaluated the needs in a boston bombing marathon situation, or a situation like that, which seems to me quite
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different than obviously a ferguson situation. >> thank you for the question, senator. so, we work with grantees in and provide them tools to assess the risks they face, and that hazards in their community. we try and provide them guidance on how to estimate their capables for addressing the threats they identified. they have discretion in terms of the kind equipment they think would best meet those needs. but as we see in boston, the equipment that was purchased, including the law enforcement equipment, certainly facilitated the response, certainly facilitated the pursuit and apprehension of the tsarnaevs, so we do work with communities in terms of assessment of risks and the ability and capability to address them. >> i wanted to ask you about on the justice end with regards to the burn jag grants, do we know how much of those grants are used for this type of equipment? because having been a attorney
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general of my state, a fair amount of those grants have gone to other thing, i know, whether it's protecting children from online predators or whether it's providing assistance to victims of crime, even though there's obviously other funds but there's all kind of variety in terms of how the funds will be used. do you have a sense for how much is used for this in terms of equipment purchasing? >> yes. thank you for the question. as you mentioned the jag money is available to address a full range of criminal justice issues in a state and what we have seen is that of the money that is allocated for the law enforcement category --, about % of the money allocated in that category goes to equipment, but most of the equipment that we're seeing people buy are computers, technology, and things like that. and for vehicles the jag money can only be used for cars,
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boats, helicopters, without coming back to the director for specific approval, and we have only in the last -- since 2005, we went back and did an investigation. we have had -- we have approved only seven armored vehicles since 2005. >> thank you. my time is up. >> i think senator coburn has a few more questions and then we'll get to the second panel. >> i want to introduce for the record an article from october 16th, 2013, "boston globe," which sets the record straight. tsarnaev was found because a guy went out to check his boat because he saw the end of it up. didn't have anything to do with money we had spent. depend have nothing do with anything other than he noted and it was surprise head found this guy a fetal position in his boat and called 9-1-1. so, this needs to be in the record to set the record straight. about what that is. i have one question for the
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three of you and then we'll go to next panel. what have you hear directly from the administration in terms of review at your level, about the review that the administration announced, based on what happened in ferguson? what information have you dead -- justice department and home lean security and fema and at the defense department? what have you heard from the white house and. >> we have already had meetings about the review and already been supplying information so the review is an active process at this time. >> as far as the justice department is concerned. >> it's all of us involved. >> let me get them to answer specifically. what have you heard? >> nor coburn, i participated in the first meeting of the review panel. it is a comprehensive review of the programs operations, the very same kinds of questions we talked about here, training, oversight, auditing, compliance. senator, i look forward to
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reading that article. ings in provided to me bill the massachusetts homeland security agency and the state police indicate that -- infrared camera was instrumental in locating him. >> here's the direct quote from the guy that called 9-1-1 to tell them, there's somebody in my boot, i think he's tsarnaev. >> my staff is participating in the review. we have been providing information to the white house and are fully engaged. the only reason i wasn't over there, i was out of town at the time. >> that's great to hear. that's called appropriate response. thank you. >> second panel with four witnesses. does anybody else have a question they really want to ask -- one or two questions they really want to ask these witnesses before we move to the second panel? i have two simple questions. before ferguson had the three of
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you ever met? >> no. >> no. >> no. >> not good. second question, do any of you now have any policy that requires you to track any kind of usage data for the equipment you're providing that could be considered military grade? yes or no? >> no. >> no. >> we do have activity reports that we require on a quarterly basis from our grantees about how they use our jag funds. >> i'd like to sees' put in the record, since you're the only one that says you claim you have usage data, i would like all the usage data that would show what military weaponry, camouflage, uniforms, helmets, all the things we saw in ferguson what data you have about how that has actually been utilized by the
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recipientses of your fund. thank you. >> thank you all very much for being here. if the witness outside will please be seated we need start the second panel. please. staff, if you'll let the -- help the witnesses get seated so we can start. [inaudible conversations] nod conversation. >> thank you all for being here. i don't want to surey you but i want to make sure -- this is a large panel and we have people that want to ask questions, and
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time is ticking. so i want to get started. let me introducing this panel. jim beer are bueermann -- jim bueermann. >> jim bueermann, the president of the washington, dc based police foundation. the foundation established in 1970 has the mission to advance policing through innobody vacation and science. mr. bueermann previously worked for the redland police department, sending with every units was a chief for 13 years from 1998 to 2011. dr. peter kraska is a chair in the school of. >> studies at eastern kentucky university. he researches the changing role of police in society, including the relationship between the police and the military, as well as the special equipment tactics and training used by police over the last several decades.
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mark lo make the executive director for the national tactical officers association. he previously servedded as program manager for the united nations in liberia where he oversaw their police s.w.a.t. and crowd control anothers. mr. lomax served 20 years we ever the pennsylvania state police in special operations assignment. mr. lomax was invitessed to par tis it in the hearings hearing at the request of the st. louis county police department. he i accompanied by major ed allen of the seminole county sheriff's office. wiley price is a photojournalist, award-winning, for the st. louis american newspaper. mr. price is a native st. louis resident who covered the police presence in ferguson first hand. and hilary shelton is a washington bureau director and senior vice president for the advocacy of the national association for the adamancement of colored people where he was worked on a wide variety of policy issues of non importance. mr. shelton, while being an important person in the naacp is
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also a st. louis native. we'll begin ifure testimony, mr. beer are bueermann. >> distinguished members of the commitee. thank you for this opportunity to appear before you to discuss this topic. as the senator just mentioned the police foundation res mission is to advance dem crabbe policings through innovation and signs wimp conduct rigorous scientific research and conduct incident reviews that help police become more effective. like many americans, i i've been closely following the events in missouri and the national discussion about the militarization of the american civilian police forces. central is the use of military-like equipments and other tactics bill the police to many people the use of armored vehicles, assault rifles or s.w.a.t. teams is unwarranted and highly inappropriate. conversely, the police officers, their use simply represents safer, more effective wives handling the dangerous
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situations they're paid to resolve. i think both perspectives have merit. the police use of military like equipment and tactics can either be appropriate or not, depending entirely on the context of their use. the antidote to militarizing our police is community policing, transparency, accountability, and paying close attention to the culture of policing. while the committee reviews these programs i urge you to consider their benefits along with needed program changes. there's been substantial positive impact on the public and officers' safety from the programs that provide equipment to law. for example, two weeks ago in illinois, the cook county shaves depth used armored vehicles to get officers to the scene to distract six children and two adults being held hostage after a home invasion robbery. two officers were shot but the equipment prevented further injury to officers and helped the safe recovery over thosages. in west bloomfield, michigan, a suspected it barricaded -- a
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suspect barricaded himself in a residential neighborhood, engaged in a firefight with the police and killed a police officer. during the standoff, the police used their armored vehicle to safely evacuate the neighborhood. finally, this summer, the las vegas metropolitan police department used rescue helicopters obtain ned the program 11 times during search and rescue operations in mountainous terrain, and used boats from the program six times for rescue missions on lake mead. based on my experience on local policing, i off their following suggestion and i believe that it -- that it believe will strike a balance between the needs of the police and compelling community interests. every policing agency that desires access to federal surplus property via dods 1033 program should be required as part of the application process to provide proof that it has received public input and local governing body approval of the
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department's acquisition of the property and it has adequate publicly reviewable training transparency and accountability poll citizen place. i believe it is important that the 1033 program be retains with appropriate transparency accountability and oversight guidelines incorporated. completely eliminating it could have substantial impact on public safety. and doing so would make taxpayers potentially pay again for the same equipment they paid for while it was used by the military. i also recommend the congress appropriate funds to adequately study this issue. there's a research of the militarization of the police and impact of the federal government providing assistance to acquiring equipment. i heard the commit glee congress to examine and consider the federal implications for advancing the following five guiding prims of sustaining democratic policing. first, the police and the community must constantly focus
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on community policing, framed around a set of organizational values developed in concert with the community. second, police organizations should reflect the communes they serve. when diverse communities see the police as not reflecting their members they can lose faith in the police to understand their need. third, policing agencies must provide their officers with appropriate and effective value-based training, accountability technology, like body-worn cameras, and -- the police should utilize the best available scientific evidence about what works to control crime and disorder. finally, critical incident reviews should be conducted after every critical incident involving the police to capture lessons learned and translate them to lessons applied so events like those occurring in ferguson do not happen again. thank you for this opportunity to testify before you. >> thank you, mr. bueermann. dr. kraska.
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>> senator mccaskill, senate members of the committee, and wonderful staffers. thank you for inviting me. let me begin today's commentses with two examples of police militarization, one old, in fact predates 9/11, and one new, this greer may. in september of 200, there was a joint operation with the modesto, california, police department employing the special operations model. the s.w.a.t. team conducted an entry into family's home suspecting the father it turn out incontributingly of below involved in drug dealing. one of the children in the home 1, 1 years old, complied wellwith all of the officers screams to get in a prone position on his bedroom floor. a paramilitary police officer standing over him with a 12 gauge shotgun, then accidentally discharged his weapon into alberto's back, killing him.
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now move forward to may of this year. a georgia police department s.w.a.t. team concluded a no-knock drug raid on family's private residence. the officers threw a percussion grenade into the home. the device landed in an infant's crib, next to his face, and then it detonated. despite being comatose for a number of days and serving up severe lacerations and burns the baby did survive. novelty that it should matter but the family was not involved in drug dealing. somebody dismiss eat these cases as mere anecdotes but the facts, based on extensive national level scientific research, are clear, these examples are emblematic of an historic, yet up until recently little publicly noticed shift in american democratic gloverrance, the clear dings between our police and military is blewing in consequential ways. the research i hey before conducting since 1989 has documented quantitatively and
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qualitatively the steady and certain march of u.s. civilian policing down the militarizeis continuum, culturally, materially, operationally, and organizationally. despite massive efforts a democratizing police under the guys of community policing reforms. the growing has been steep and deep inch he mound 1980s a mere 30% of police agencies had a s.w.a.t. team. today well over 80% of departments large and small have one. in the early 1980s these agencies conducted approximately 3,000 deployments a year nationwide. today i estimate a very conservative figure of 60,000 per year, and i is critical to recognize these 60,000 deprime ministers are mostly for conducting drug searches on people's private residences. this is not to imply that all police, nearly 20,000 unique
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departments across our great land, are heading in this direction. but the research evidence along with militarized tragedies in modesto, georgia, ferguson, and tens of thousands of other locations, demonstrates a troubling and highly cones sequential overall trend. what we saw played out in the ferguson protests was the application of a very common mindset, style of uniform, and appearance and weaponry used every day in the homes of private residences during s.w.a.t. raids. some departments conduct as many as 500 s.w.a.t. team raids a year. and just as in the two example0s above and in the ferguson it's the poor and communities of color that are mostly impacted. it is hard to imagine that anyone intended for the wars on crime, drugs and terrorism, to devolve into wide-spread police militarization, at the same time it is also hard not to see that by declaring war, we have opened
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the door for outfitting our police to be soldiers with the warrior mindset. to conclude, i've mentioned that police militarizize predates 9/11. this is not just an interesting historical fact. itself is critical because it illuminates the most important reason or causal factor in this unfortunate none -- turn in american policing and democracy. our long-returning and intensely punitive self-proclaimed war on crime and drugs. it is no coincidence that the skyrocketing number of police paramilitary deprime ministers on american citizens since the early 1980s coincides perfect liver with the skyrocketing imprisonment numbers. we now have 2.4 million people incarceratessed in the country and almost four percent of the american public is now under direct correctional supervision. these wars have been devastating to minority communities and the
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marginalized and have resulted in the self-perpetuating growth complex. cutting off the supply of military weaponry to our civilian police is the least we could do to begin the process of running in police militarization, and attempting to make clear that the increasingly blurred distinction between the military police. please do not underestimate the gravity of this development. this lie disturbing to most americans on the left and the right. thank you. >> thank you, dr. kraska. mr. lomax. >> you need to turn on your microphone. >> good afternoon itch would like to thank chairman, ranking member, senator, members of the committee to have the opportunity to speak with you've today. since its inception in 19le 3 the ntoa has served as a not for profit association representing law. professionals and special operations say signment and local, state, and federal law
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enforcement agencies. the mission of the ntoa is to enhance the performance and status of law enforcement personnel by providing a credible and proven training resource as well as a forum for the academy of tactics and information exchange. the american law enforcement officer recognizes probably more accurately than most that there are not in conflict with the citizens they serve. to the contrary, the men, the braver men and women of this profession, willingly place themselves between danger and the public every day, at personal sacrifices to themselves and their families. it is evident by the law enforcement memorials walking distance from where we sit today. law enforcement agencies in the united states have taken advantage of the 1033 programs from its inception-or certainly at greater frequency after the terror attack of soldier 1 --
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september 11, 2001. the dod grant and the dod1033 program allows agencies to acquire the necessary equipment rapidly, and at a considerable cost savings to the local tax paying public. the 1033 program has allowed local agencies to acquire high-wheeled vehicles, fork lifts and generators that improve operational capabilities and responder safety. the threat that firearms pose to law enforcement officers and the public during violent critical incidents has proven that armored rescue vehicles have become an essential and body armor or helmets in saving lives. moreover, in the dhs fema type resource definition, law enforcement a security resource document it's recommendedded that s.w.a.t. teams have tactical equipment, including armored rescue vehicles in the
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event of a disaster. most tactical commanders are sensitive in a real and perceived appearance. however, it is not uncommon for agencies to take receipt of such equipment and receive little or no training on how to utilize its, when to deploy it, and equally as important, when not to deploy it. prior to obtaining equipment from the 1033 program, or purchasing commercially utilizing dsh grant moneys, agencies are not mandated to enemy machine straight training levels for the use of that equipment. it is incumbent upon that agency to obtain the necessary training based upon regulatory or voluntary compliance standards associated with such equipment. such training could take place at an agency relocation. another challenge is that there are not enough specialized law enforcement teams developed specifically mobile field force teams and every jurisdiction
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around the country. consequently, when a law enforcements a mr.or is faced with a civil disorder event they often deploy the only resource they have immediate access to local s.w.a.t. teams. it's important to note that approximately 80% of law enforcement agencies in the united states have fewer than 50 officers. with the exception of large metropolitan cities or jurisdictions with prior devil order events most agencies have not invest ned a mobile field force capability. there's also general lack of training regarding civil disorder events for tactical commanders, planners, public information officers and first-line supervisors. this must change. the ntoa purchased the s.w.a.t. standard thursday 2011 which outlines the most basic requirements for tactical teams in terms of operational capabilities. training, management, policy development, operational planning, and
quote
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multijurisdictional response. the standard, however, is a voluntary splines standard. many law enforcement leaders view them as funded mandate -- unfansed mandates. the position is when an agency makes a decision to develop a s.w.a.t. capable shies also make the investment in training, equipment, and best practices that require to support such an effort. again, on behalf of 40,000 law enforcement professionals that we represent, i thank you for this opportunity to speak to you today on these current issues and challenges and look forward to answering the questions the committee may have. >> thank you, mr. price. >> good afternoon. my name is wiley price. i'm the staff photojournalist at the st. louis american newspaper in st. louis, missouri. i'd like too first think senator mccaskill for inviting me to this hearing today. the shooting death of mikal
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brown arranges unarmed teenager, by a ferguson, missouri, police officer on saturday, up a 9, 2014, may very well become the turning point in moving forward in changing the way policing is conducted in this country. especially in neighborhoods of people of color. first, mandatory cameras for officers patrolling the streets to ensure accountability for the way citizens are addressed during routine stops. this policy would allow is to examine the methods police use during these stops. these are special challenges to policing in urban areas where there are strong feelings, often negative. about the conduct and role of the police. though strong feelings are ouch negative about the conduct of the police elm uprisings in ferguson or the result of inept police behavior at the highest decision making level and rastles question of how much
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force is appropriate to control a group of angry protesters armed initially with rocks, bottles, and later molotov cocktails. what police used to defend themselves at the early stage of the confrontation was a high level of military weaponry, not often seen on the streets of the united states. what we saw were large military style weapons, including armored vehicles formal -- normally seen on national new in conflicts. most americans were not be so shocked if this were a response to an overt terrorist attack on an american city. but not during a spontaneous protest over the shooting of a young mail by a police officer while walking in the street in the mid of the day. most believe we can spend this kind of money on weapons -- i'm sorry -- most believe that if we can spend this type of money on
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weapons why not use the resources so better train the police and train them the best way to resolve conflict. if heavy military weapons are to be deployed, this should be in the hands of trained officers subject to competent, high level police command. this show of military might of ferguson by the police only escalated the understandably strong feelings felt by the very people that the police are sworn to serve and protect. the days of unrest were followed protest from people who already felt disrespected and frustrated by the local law. on a daily basis. that concludes my statement. >> thank you, mr. price. mr. shelton. >> thank you very much, senator mccaskill. thank you senator coburn and the others gathered here today. i want to thank you for inviting
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me here to testify for --s' -- my name is hillary shelton the director othe naacp's washington bureau and senior vice president. the naacp deeply appreciates the needs for local go including law enforcement agencies to secure equipment as cost effectively as possible. we have supported increased resources and personnel to local police departments since then founding of the association. 105 years ago. over the last couple academic candidates, given the shrinking state and federal budgets and the often times increasing demands the communities represented and served by the naacp seem to have suffered differ proportionalitily from reduced state and local funding. ... our concern is when military equipment, weapons of war commonly used to fight a vowed enemy of our country, are transferred into local domestic law enforcement agencies with little or no oversight, training
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or specific and clear integration, when and how they are used in civilian circumstances. the tragic killing of michael brown in ferguson, missouri, the ensuing protests, and the resulting demonstrations of force by local law enforcement attracted the attention of many to a heretofore little known program, the defense department's 1033 program, by which the federal government transfers excess military equipment to state and local law enforcement agencies. while americans were rightfully upset, it is a sad commentary on race in america that this is not a new phenomena to most americans of color. the war on drugs and war on crimes have been predominantly waged in racial and ethnic minority communities and too often against african americans. since 1989 military equipment has been used by law enforcement agencies to fight the war on drugs. thus, it should be of no surprise racial and ethnic minorities have grown accustomed to seeing weapons of wars in our
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communities, on our streets and even entering our homes. on saturday, august 9th an an unarmed college-bound african-american teenager michael brown was shot by a police officer in ferguson, missouri. the ensuing protests began peacefully. people were angry, admittedly outraged, but peaceful. protests were met by local law enforcement agencies in ambush protected vemdz, mraps, with assault weapons aimed at them. the resulting impression on people in ferguson and throughout the country and world watching these events is that these americans were being marginalized. their concerns, protests were not valued or respected by local law enforcement. one cnn report said it looked more like belfast, or the middle east, than the heartland of middle america. the fact that population of ferguson is over 67% african-american has not been lost on many of the protesters
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nor on the u.s. or international observers. as a matter of fact, i was at the united nations when all this broke loose and they were asking me questions about ferguson. people who could not speak english knew the word ferguson. what steps does the naacp recommend so solve the problem with overmilitarization of local law enforcement agencies? we need to move away from the war on crime to be trained to stop stereotyping people based on what they look like, the clothes they wear and the neighborhoods in which they live. if the department of defense's 1033 program is allowed to continue, it should be restructured to emphasize nonlethal equipment and that the equipment be used not to pursue the flawed war on drugs or civilian protests and demonstrations, but rather it be used to promote the idea that law enforcement is designed to protect and serve. the citizens who are within their jurisdiction.
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included in the requirements necessary to receive such equipment must also be policies, training and oversight which includes the racial profiling act, pending in the house and senate, and the law enforcement stuff and integrity act being introduced by senator john conyers. local agencies should develop policies calling for thoughtful of restraint and should be a requirement before any equipment transfer or funding occurs. we need full transparency and disclosure. not only should the department of defense be required to disclose what equipment was distributed and to bhoem but state and local law enforcement agencies must be required to publicly report on the equipment they requested and received and the intended purpose. finally, the naacp would like to strongly advocate for more programs such as the department of justice's community policing, or cops program, and for increase in the funding of c.o.p.s. program. it's intended to incentivize
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better law enforcement practices through community engagement. it remains a primary vehicle through which the federal government awards on police transparen and accountability. in summation, american policing has become increasingly militarized through weapons and takttics designed for war. the lines between federal military force and civil law enforcement has become increasingly blurred. sadly americans have born the brunt of this. we need to correct this program. not just check it. we need to continue to strive for a democracy under which all americans can live. we should not allow any american government entity to be considered at war with any other. i thank you again, chairman harper, coburn and mccaskill and all the others here today. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you so much. i'm going to go ahead and defer my questions and allow the other senators who are here to go
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first. >> thanks for your testimony. mr. bueermann, at what point do you think t . >> guest: that is a great question. one of the benefits of the federal government to create a national coherence what policing should look like that is the place for the federal government to be there are a leadership training programs that the fbi put on at the academy that helps police officers better understand these issues that we talk about today that would be an appropriate role for the federal government. as a used to be a police chief i appreciated the ability to acquire equipment using primarily for vehicles and office equipment that we could not have afforded if the program had not existed sell from a local perspective i thought that
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was say the wonderful way to get a return on the federal tax investment but i understand the issues at play in this discussion. >> we appreciate you coming and working with us. tell us the difference between a latria is an increasingly federalized police force and the standing army? >> guest: it is a complicated history but remember the posse, thomas act was in place of untouched until the 1980's drug more. the reagan administration wanted to complete the repeals it the law but they amended is significantly to allow for cross trading and weapons transference. hasn't decided not to make
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too much but we also have to remember the department of defense has been actively involved to trade local police departments as well not just provide equipment but trading i have a great'' and that talks about having navy s.e.a.ls of our readers, to teach them things it is not just weapons transfer. the federal government increasingly since 9/11 has played a significant role to accelerate the trend toward demilitarization. the extent to which department of homeland security have contributed giant would have a cause a significant but remember the militarize culture of the component of policing this
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is not a unified phenomenon at all in the united states of america hell we had a police department right next to last very smart and wise said don't do this and all and they would never. the policing community is split i now want anybody to get the impression that still is that way it is just not true. but back to federalization i think the federal government plays a significant role probably in the last well for 14 years. >> i will move on to save time. >> it your testimony right have written down its procedures verses operation of this. how much is about procedures
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responding to be vince in society versus actual e equipment? what causes what? >> great question. it is difficult to insert but i -- answer but i do know the trend began as part of the drug war and has nothing to do with terrorism or anything to do with threats to national security but everything to prosecute the drug war. that is would be sought a precipitous rise in the amount of activity doing 7500 or 1,000 drug raids per year of people's private residence so we saw a small localities shooting off the we are for officers getting training coming back to the department to start the 50
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officer police paramilitary unit with no clue what they we're doing whatsoever. that all happened as a part of the drug war. so i have a hard time making any sort of credible analysis that what bc is just the reaction to increasing insecure homeland situation. this is still absolutely happening today. >> coming from a manufacturing background again in my briefing this first started with the defense authorization and bill targeted to the drug war. because of another hearing
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we spend $75 billion fighting the war on drugs but we're not comparing it to. are we? so what do we need to do? >> procedurally what do we need to do? what is the solution? >>. >> relative to equipment and procedure? >> this is cause initially by the drug war the of militarization built up as a reaction in. the node knock raids are about drugs. what is the solution? >> start at the top with leadership that comes from decision making policy, procedures, getting back to the initial question to the doctor between equipment and procedures. procedures become before transparency or decision
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making. again it is not the equipment per save and who makes these decisions on how to deploy or when not to. >> are remaking any progress with the war on drugs and all? we have been engaged for decades. >> that is the question to be taken up by legislators and up policy makers how we are doing. >> i realize these are somewhat removed from of militarization. >> what is your solution? crime has devastated communities. >> paradigm that we are we
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have 2.4 million americans in jail with non-violent talk about the health care approach to talk about the criminal or military approach. to talk about police officers and the racial profiling we have the answer for that as well one of your colleagues has the bill that calls the end racial profiling act to help restore the trust and integrity for law enforcement to be effective if it will go many miles to fix the crime problem in our society. it makes no sense we have 79,280 assault rifles given by the department of defense , 205 grenade launchers, 11,959 bayonets. what will they do with the combat knives?
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that is with local police departments shall and makes no sense. >> the war on drugs and a war on crime. walter williams use the statistic 1976 through 2011 and 279,000 african-americans murdered 7,000 per year. 94 percent is black on black but that is a problem you have to be concerned about. i would think local police departments are also concerned. >> absolutely. the crime goes back to our founders did you e.b. day bois clearly that crime problem has to be addressed but it cannot be successfully with the distrust of police officers because of programs like this we have to establish a new trust pattern. also i was very happy to
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hear those that are most effective to address crime are those that are reflective of those that are there to serve it is part of the paradigm the only time they begin to cool off and ferguson when the first african-american attorney general of the united states went to ferguson and to show that top law-enforcement officer was there and the concerns were taken seriously across the board. >> my a time is running out. >> one of the things i try to understand is everything depends on the situation. do you agree in terms of what is appropriate to deploy or a response and it all comes down to the
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appropriate trading as how to respond to a situation would you all agree we will respond to differently to a situation like the marathon bombing verses ferguson? part of that is trading and what we need to respond to those situations may be different. >> clear policy how to respond in circumstances like that. policy and training then accountability. those the issues that move this along. >> to follow-up on s.w.a.t. teams having worked with the police in my stay in a number of settings, they have had to respond to pretty dangerous situations that it did involve a drug
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crime where you had high-level individuals that were quite dangerous and all armed and that was appropriate that the s.w.a.t. team respond they had the most training how to deal with verses 71 patrol officer or a handful that don't deal with the situation like with an arms scott drug dealer -- armed drug dealer also a hostage situation with the s.w.a.t. team truthfully i was glad the s.w.a.t. team was there because they had the training staff and a trained particularly for hostage situations to allow the police to have the right training to know how to negotiate and handle a
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situation that is up pretty broad brush so trying to get all three of you is well and is inappropriate to i have been there where i would have wanted the right situation to be there and we ended those because they had the right to trading and trained specifically so how do we distinguish from that it is a protest situation and that this is what we are
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grappling with as we ask a lot more for -- from the police post a 9/11 as first responders and maybe we have sent been mixed messages. >> effective start this off. this is the crux of the discussion of anyone who is not been paying attention to a the reality of the of police officers. the memorial has 20,000 names of peril with americans who gave their life to protect their own communities so there is a time and place for any of these tools making reference
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to the national academy there is not a national cause parents when we should use these particular tools you can find out the hard way it is our rationale to understand the learning opportunities but at the end of the day comes down to leadership whether the low coal city council. whether they should turn should not have a tactical team if you leave it to the police officers like any of us they have a burning desire every day to go home to their families so much of the world is framed around to perception a search warrant could be dangerous i have served a lot. >> not to interrupt you might in-state we have lost one of us are exercising a
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situation and another in a domestic violence executing an arrest warrant. >> no police officer does not recognize that nobody made then become a cop they know the inherent risk but the question with the balance of this that ultimately the leadership issue is a function of the relationships the police department has with the community to talk about the department next door has a great relationship but at the same time if they needed a tactical team i have no doubt to protect citizens they would employ that it is when you use it in the common-sense that is where the federal government should put their attention to stimulate that ability. >> oftentimes these
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conversations you fall into either zero or but it is critical to recognize there are lots of situation the use of force specialists you have to have that no doubt with 60,000 appointments those are incredibly rare thank goodness. they require a confident response. our research demonstrated conclusively that 85 percent of s.w.a.t. team operations today are pro-active choice driven a raid on a private
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residence. 85%? the original function of s.w.a.t. that they were to save lives but dutiable circumstances well. what happened during their early 80s and 90s that function flipped we went from these teams predominantly doing reactive deployments maybe one or two with the entire municipality per year but they were there to handle it. this has evolved with misapplication of the paramilitary model of unjustified growth having been the many smaller police
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departments our research showed 50 percent of the police department's are receiving less than 50 hours of training per year for there s.w.a.t. team the recommended amount used to be 258 the get has been reduced to 000 vs 50? they are not well-trained teams there localized 18,000 police departments all doing their own thing with no oversight or accountability that is why we see in have seen hundreds of these tragedies that i have mentioned but also lots of terrorized family is that had been caught up with the drug operations and a drug raids. thank you. ed families that have been caught up in the drug operations and drug raids. thank you. >> thank you. anybody else? >> senator, a couple of comments relative to the s.w.a.t. that you saw. there is a need, like the
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panelists have discussed in the last couple minutes, that the number one priority of s.w.a.t. is preserve life. number one. when you think of a s.w.a.t. team, most people think of the tactical enter team. as part of the s.w.a.t. team you have intelligence. you have negotiators, you have security and so forth. the number one goal of a s.w.a.t. team, preserve life whether it's pohostages, civilians, suspect. over the years, the use of s.w.a.t. has been -- out reached this main purpose. but going back to the reason for s.w.a.t. is those small particular situations that you have personally observed where the training, the equipment, the expertise saved lives. >> thanks. thank you. for mr. beerman and mr. lomax, i
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am very sensitive to the cry that goes up about unfunded federal mandates. this is a different situation. we are pushing in wholesale fashion military equipment to local police departments. do you sense that the police community would be offended if we put a few more rules of the road on the ability to receive these resources from the federal government? why wouldn't we require that if you are going to get federal funding in this spags thce that would have to have 200 hours of training and that the size of your police department would be relevant to the decisions as to what you would receive and that a s.w.a.t. team on a very, very small community, particularly one that's a suburb, where there could be regional access to
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specialists in the rare but very, very important situation where that kind of training is absolutely essential to protect life of innocent people and most importantly the lives of the police officers? why can't we begin to do more with -- if we're going to give you money, we're going to make you jump through a few hoops. is that something you think the police community would not accept and understand that this hasgone >> guest: i had this conversation with several police chief since ferguson and i don't think they would be alarmed there is the expectation and hawaiian spoken to agree that there needs to be a governing defect with the transfer of some of the equipment.
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but certainly tactical equipment whether armored vehicles toward guns and should be connected and i made suggestions source of guidance from the government to accountability measures or trading issues because many of those arguments local police chiefs would make to the local city council and some of those fallen on deaf ears they cannot get the council to pay attention because there is up pricetag you may help police chief elevate the level of trading there would like to see. >> i agree with my colleague. number one for the vast majority to add extra steps with documentation policy and accountability will not
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be a problem. in light of the of the defect has a tremendous contribution in to police departments over 20 years right now all it definitely needs to be a paradigm shift because perception is reality right now there is of militarization the added steps for this program is welcome because it is insured trading and as mentioned will give more power to say we need more training for this equipment and also there needs to be local input i think senator johnson mentioned it earlier this could be a local issue
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also a tough and put how they are properly equipped. >> excuse me for half being a professor so i'm actually read what i had written. >> of those possible to to allow funds to allow a tightly regulated police to obtain military grade equipment for rare situations perhaps these programs may be a benefit that the myriad of the un affordable unintended consequences of these programs are dangerous military gear changes in reinforces a war fighting mentality among civilian police the looking at the people as the enemy and they see themselves as the line between order and chaos that is only controlled through military model power.
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to was still the american police of community empowerment developing authentic trust, a democratic accountability and have been snooze the displaced but the paradigm. seen that growing militarization of that policing so it is a cultural problem not just a few tweets but when you hand the department this level of weaponry it changes the mindset. most cut 25 or 50 officers 15 on a swat team now has of $325,000 armored personnel carrier from homeland
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security now they say we have racial tensions at a basketball game we will bring the military goods to the game. that is a quotation. i don't know if it is never a good idea. >> that is interesting you say that because the in preparing for this hearing we took the books at a search on amazon for police officer tories -- toys. and to what came up and this is the first thing that came up a helmet a hand grenade obviously that kind of weaponry we don't
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traditionally think of police officers but this is what parents by for their children who say they want to be police officers. this is something that has gotten into the culture that is very damaging. speaking of community policing i watched as it has gone down and down by the way homeland security grants have not. so the grants are bigger now than policing so why don't i hear as much from my police communities about the cuts like i do with talk of a homeland security grants? why is it there doesn't
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appear to me that? we need the voices to lobby for that money. i watched community police work as a prosecutor. ever watch it work with a serious drug problem that is a drug court that is what was really working in kansas city. what you a tribute the fact from those streams of funding for this weaponry? visit this is a cultural aspect. but it has also every american to say to their elected people this is what we expect from the police apartment -- department to be fair and equitable at the same time to grapple with
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challenging situations the best counterterrorism strategy in in the united states the best they can do is policing to coproduce public safety from the police and the community that will not happen if there is distrust the federal reflect the community they serve to have a constant discussion if there is a silver lightning from the events of ferguson and to begin this discussion in 1997 about how we use out of five general fund to damage that relationship. >> what about the idea with
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the hostage situation or the terrorists of situation under the control of the state national guard? to provide more accountability and as appropriate trading of the allies to where it really would save lives. >> we have to figure out a way to use it. >> to adjust to articulate the reason at the same time we try to work on solutions we don't know how that equipment is used. >> they have no idea that of them know how it is
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utilized. >> we should spend more time and money researching with the law as assets that we could learn from other fields and easily this could be one of the guidelines attached to this programming to demonstrate the reason approach and we see that already with other federal programs and not localize but the problem is 17,000 police departments each has of a different challenge in front of them sold their deeds to be a thoughtful approach that ties this together to ensure the locally elected body has an opportunity to voice their opinion whether it makes sense or not that there is the greater likelihood to bring a regional approach
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not necessarily of the department there is a story there. >> 13 assaults grade waffle -- rifles for one officer? that is almost comical it is a lot of balance. one of the things i witnessed in ferguson but the chicken and egg situation with a spontaneous demonstration the vast majority was peaceful up until the following weekend when you would see people embedded among those peaceful people for a confrontation. no question in my mind this was brought out early in the
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week contributed to a mentality with the peaceful protesters they retreated as the enemy. >> correct they were the enemy. >> this is a military force and facing down enemy. >> celebrating as heritage had its freedom of the press work? what are the challenges you face because of that mentality that began on monday following the shooting and saturday. >> guest: one of the problems that had with the police they been put the media in with the protesters
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to during the daylight hours when they took on the policy of no standing protesters could be found stationary you already have the us locked in bet to space a radius we're right here in front of you but they wanted us to keep him in motion. wouldn't it be easier if they did slowdown there corralled in one location here they are. 100 people why should we continue to move? you are also asking the photographers to move with them. but to be forced to aggregate a peaceful stance.
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now to keep them in motion. as opposed to keeping a peaceful. >> i am assuming tactical officers receive training to put in this military presence during daylight hours with lots of children but it was the of middle of the afternoon with mounted sniper weapons is pointing at people that never ever envisioned having some 1.a sniper weapons and this happened on wednesday afternoon. it was about 3:00 in the afternoon. fat that occurred.
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>> is there somewhere that is appropriate with those circumstances? >> i am not sure at that time hopefully the doj investigation and others will determine what is going on. but a lot of times there may be intelligence that we don't know what is happening. >> believe veteran i told he was using his scope to observe the crowd. have they heard of binoculars? it seems there is a better way to monitor the crowd that is peacefully protesting began pointing mounted sniper weapons out them -- jack and common sense says it will make the situation worse not better. >> i told you was up there
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to observe the crowd. >> correct. >> most police departments that handles civil protest directly know the last thing you want to do is instigate. of wonder full article was written in washington pulled post -- the "washington post" that you do not display weaponry and you said back and just to throw out a quick speculation speculation, what you saw was a high-level with your among the police and dash huge cultural issue where so many for-profit training groups and academies teach survival list warrior mentality you never know the next person to kill you and you have to go home at night so you take every possible precaution. that sounds wonderful but
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these to the intense fear of with the community you surf. >> gander was lifting a van day berndt dell the stores we fair it was not like that activity was completely lawful there was some lawful activity that i think should capone's of the law-enforcement community to have that lawlessness said the affair of the b-2 -- we have to factor that dan bullet dash hurricane country now where the initial response from fema and under the department of homeland security is thought that this is a security threat and spent almost four days supposedly securing the area later we found out that
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was false. people in dire need of help securing ferry before giving humanitarian aid? it is security first, 82nd mindset and also our good friend said spinach with the pitcher you just showed the distance between the police and the protesters was probably 100 feet. very small. but so for them to stand there clearly year when everyone was saying as far as moving back into said a white is this for? something else was going on behind the scenes we did not know about.
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>> we assumed it was not for us. why is the truck there? it brought us suspect something was going on that we did not know. others questioned what was going on in this went on and three or four days and the police navigated the peaceful marchers when they were just chanting. >> want to thank all of you for being here we will follow-up with another subcommittee hearings of this subject and i was certainly ask our guests to begin working on what you think based on your knowledge of the police community in this country what was reasonable changes of policy to get back to a
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place where a young man who wants to grow up to be a police officer who thinks he needs to get a hand grenade. that is a problem. i would like us to work on that together. we will continue to work with you to have come today the naacp is a part of this national discussion and i am on the ground and ferguson a lot to figure out how to navigate to the very difficult road ahead as we figure out how to regain trust in the community with the police department. the great people of. said deserve to have a police department they feel comfortable with. there is a lot of work to do the record will remain open until september 24th for the submission of any other statements if there is any
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information get it to us before then. think you very much. [inaudible conversations]
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>> i just want to lou, the author jay said riley excellent conversation and good to listen to ambac debt conclusions with fact i appreciate that i would like to hear more how he feels to
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change the feeling so people can lift themselves out of poverty to keep extending the system. >> a couple of weeks ago that also on thursday night with the election returns they have this stretch across the bottom it was so small on days old tv sets to even with a zoom format we appreciate it if you go back to the way you stretch it out or do something so people can read it. >> i appreciate c-span and efforts with other important topics such the news
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agencies do not do nearly enough and we appreciate c-span2 provide this information of testimony on so many important issues
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[applause] is starting to loosen up the low little bit odd your feet to get up and down the want to say hello to those who are watching by the way. [cheers and applause] we will hear from her very shortly but at this point what may well come day friend of working men and women of the values we embrace with that of labor movement senator bernice sanders born in brooklyn
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moved to vermont after university of chicago was talking to the justice who lived up there he won by 10 votes a badge and the difference it could make if you don't think getting to the polls november 2014 isn't important it was 10 of those to put his political career interaction. a champion on all kinds of issues but most importantly on equity to make sure people and get a fair shake to take on anybody who tries to undermine the middle class in this country. senator sanders. [cheers and applause]
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[applause] >> brothers and sisters thank you very much for inviting me to be with you this morning to celebrate labor day and also been all of those that the afl-cio in new hampshire. more important when the fake each and every member here and trade union all over the country through today and yesterday and decades past put their life on the line to stand up and fight for the right of working people. thank you for that. [applause] it is no secret right now the billionaire class and
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big money interest target organized labor the reason for that is when workers can come together to bargaining collectively they can earn a decent wages to have a voice in our democracy. and a the billionaires' opposition is dash do and thank you for being bad. -- that our job is not only to fight back for those to destroy the trade union movement our job is to grow it to make sure every worker in this country wants to be a union can be a. [cheers and applause]
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i also want to thank all of you in this room floors sending jean szczecin to the united states senate. [applause] i am proud and honored to be chairman of the senate committee on veterans affairs and there are very few people in the united states congress to fight harder than senator so please send her back. also best of luck at the reelection efforts but the main point to want to make
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to be is straight forward dash psyching and is to tell you that this country faces enormous leave difficult problem and i would be dishonest to push that under the rug and if i did not tell you in my view the problems that we face today are more serious than any time since the great depression and throw it in climate changes could be more serious. that is the reality. if this country will go forward we have to have the courage to go straight for the to analyze and bring people together to solve them from the bottom of my heart i believe if these problems are solvable but will not be solved unless working people come together
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to have the courage to take on the greedy and selfish -- selfishness we see around the country. [applause] fled the briefly just review where we are economically. you know, it we have touched on some of these issues but i will be blunt. it and michelle the great middle-class of this country once the envy of the entire world is disappearing. of our job is to rebuild that middle-class. [applause] . .
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>> today in america we have more people living in poverty than any time in the history of this country. at 22% we have the highest rate of childhood poverty on earth

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