>> booktv asked bookstores and libraries throughout the country about nonfiction books they are most anticipating being published this fall. here's a look at some of the titles chosen by quail ridge books in north carolina. filmmaker ken burns and historian geoffrey ward look at the personal and political lives of theodore, eleanor and franklin delano roosevelt.

that is a look at the nonfiction titles quail ridge is most interested in being published this fall. you can visit the bookstore in raleigh, north carolina or on line at quail ridge.com. >> ann hagedorn is next on booktv. she takes a critical look at private military contractors and argues that americans should be concerned about our dependence on them. this is a middle over an hour. [inaudible conversations] >> good evening. thank you so much for coming. hello. my name is sarah boleyn and i'm the events coordinator here at kramer books and on behalf of our entire staff i am happy to welcome you to kramer's tonight for one of our first events in our event season which got started in early september and i hope you haven't already will

take a moment and pick up one of our event calendars and if you haven't already, please follow up on facebook, twitter and sign up for our e-mail newsletter. thank you for coming. i am pleased to welcome you. i am pleased to welcome ann hagedorn for her new book "the invisible soldiers: how america outsourced our security". the book tells about the privatization of america's national security and exposes where the industry came from, how it operates and where it is heading and as the journalists at the wall street journal who was taught ratings at columbia, her previous books are wild ride, ransom, beyond the river and savage peace. join me in welcoming her to kramer books. [applause] >> thank you, great to be here.

especially great to be here because i am honored by the presence of another writer on this topic, david eisenberg is sitting in the front row and familiar faces of people i have known for a long time and came to this event. the -- "the invisible soldiers: how america outsourced our security" is the story of the privatisation of defense and security. a narrative nonfiction book that is a trajectory telling the story from the mercenary renaissance of the second half of the 20th century in to the age of drones. basically the story of a rise of a new industry, an industry of military in security companies, corporate evolution of the mercenary trade but as i have

been saying on the road the word mercenary is loaded and i try from the very beginning to be raise it from the discussion because a mercenary has to be defined as an individual, a hired gun. it conjures the rather unsavory image involved in mercenaries in colonial conflicts. not that they don't exist anymore but to called these companies and this industry that you will read about in "the invisible soldiers: how america outsourced our security," mercenary is a little misleading because basically today's version is fundamentally different, completely different. the critical factor is -- excuse me -- the modern corporate business form.

these companies are hierarchical the organized, inc. and registered businesses and they trade and compete internationally. they recruit internationally. they links through outside financial holdings. and provide a vast range of services in many markets worldwide. and sell one thing that i learned while i have been on the road is there are many misconceptions and one, of course is these companies are just about u.s. contracts, just about iraq or just about blackof water or some people know of them only through headlines about scandals. there are many misconceptions and we will get through a few discussions on that later, but one thing that you must realize

is that this is an industry that is evolve in right before our eyes and has been for the past 25 to 30 years. it got a big boost of course in the iraq war for which some people call the first contractor's work, beginning in of course march of 2003, some of these companies got their start then. some larger companies, weapons manufacturers, companies that eisenhower would have referred to in the military industrial complex, in 1961, some of those companies developing subsidiaries to accommodate to the new markets and the needs in iraq, we have a boost in the bonanza of u.s. contracts in the war of iraq, as then we go

forward to now where we could be facing what some people are calling the second contractor's work, but as i said what we are watching and what i want my readers to be as fascinated by as i am as i have been for the last several years is the evolution of this industry and the vast array of services that the company's offer. everything from logistic support which is something we all know about to halliburton and iraq, logistic support, airtran support, intelligence analysis, and alisha training, weapons maintenance, weapons training, police training, services and of course moving into armed

security and in many markets, every continent these companies have a presence and they recruit internationally, and they do serve as brokers periodically for mercenaries because what you have is some companies focused on arms security and some that some people call the department stores of defense and security an offer a wide range of arms and armed services. wherever instability friends development on the global frontier wherever military commitments exceed the capabilities of nations, wherever governments are viewed as being capable of supply and the defense security fast enough in times of sudden conflict, that is where there are markets

for these companies and more specifically in the united states contingency operations as we know, long after traditional troops withdraw, they also are involved in counterterrorism strategy, diplomatic security, border patrol security, drone operations and cybersecurity and intelligence analysis and other markets, other markets in other countries, other nations and with multinational companies, multinational companies for armed security and development in a hostile environment, this has been happening for a long time. the shipping industry, one of the biggest markets is the

maritime security which is a fascinating story in and of itself. each of these areas, one of the challenges of this book has been the effect that in each of these areas, i could have written a single book, i could have written that can volume set, just the story of the development of maritime security is interesting because the shipping industry debated this for a long time but at the team is a narrative nonfiction book. what i am trying to do is to show you through a story, through the trajectory of the bias of this industry exactly how all of this happened and also, hopefully attack on the fascination and interest i have for it on to you as the general

reader because this is a relatively new industry and it passed through the portal of permanence. it is part of the u.s. defense and security strategy and it has a worldwide presence. so in the book, what i'd do is move you through that trajectory through introducing you to individuals by taking you to london you sort of follow me around the take you to london and to as one journalist said if you want to understand the origins of the mercenary you have to go to london first. hope i am not stepping on toes nationally or in this room. it is fascinating in that way. origins for many of the models from excellent companies in this arena where it began in london, where it began in england and i

take you to geneva where i introduce you to some really fascinating individuals who have been working since 2006 on the swiss initiative which is an international effort to monitor the armed sector of this industry and the name of that chapter is conquering chaos but that was a great adventure and i hope you will see it the same way. to think that since 2006, groups needing in geneva to work on a process that would more closely monitor this industry, kind of exciting. i also take you to kansas, the

command and general staff college at fort leavenworth where i spent some time interviewing people in the military because i wanted to get the military perspective gone this and that is where i learned one of the most interesting aspects of the debate over the use of these companies which is the difference between efficiency and effectiveness. i get into this, i will be here for the nick two hours. and i think right now, maybe somebody in the audience will ask that question but anyhow i thank you -- i take you to congress and several congressional hearings and people in congress who have been trying for greater accountability and take you to new mexico, to an interesting place where there are security contractors being trained. and i introduce you to people

within the industry. in the military, people in the military, in congress, people in the industry who have been involved in it from the earliest stages including some of the journalists calling it like david eisenberg who is doing it right here but what i try to do and hopefully succeeded is to pull together the strands of this very large story and show you the components of the evolution of the industry, the rise of it and the spread and put a human face on those components. i also take into the story of a u.s. special forces operative who was shot by a u.s. private military contractor in baghdad. so that story, there are -- i introduced you to several

companies that i think are quite interesting in their success. ..

>> to tell a compelling story about something that is part of our history and part of world history as a result of low motivation and it is part of the privatizing and the move of priveatizing various arenas and for you to see by following this industry and by understanding it better you can see a shift in the conduct of war, you can see a shift in our defense strategy on military and security and stability options. you can see the greater use of contractors. for example in africon the authorization act had an

attachment about the need of greater monitoring of the private companies new zealand -- involved -- it is going to continue growing and showing the shift in the context of war. it is shown by some accounts the beginning of the fading of the nation states. these are international companies. it shows the operation of, you know, borderless business environment and that is how they operate. in the book, it is a non-partisan book, and it is hopefully a fair analysis because i get on inside of the military, inside of the industry and also i have introduced some contractors. several of them in fact. and you know, part of the misconception is they are all

bad. when you read the book, you will see there are several congressional hearings in the book and one was in 2011 which was a hearing that was focused on exploytation of contractors and some of the problems with their health care, food, lodging in certain situations. so because what you have is in this country anyhow or in all nati nations when there is a contract given out there are layers of subcontractors. so the subcontractors were addressed largely in that congressional hearing and it is fascinating. one of the big questions on the road was something i was asking

all throughout my research and writing which has been a great concern and should be of great concern to all of us. a couple radio shows, call-in shows, people would say why should we care? that is a really big question. why should we care if somebody else is doing our defense and security, providing it, some of the companies, like i said, are great. the fabulous companies don't want the bad companies. they don't want the headlines about bad behavior. they have been working on an international code of conduct because this is a bona fide industry. but why should we care? in this question why is the answer. because why would we be asking that question if there wasn't a level of indifference. why should we care? i could actually be up here for

another hour to tell you why you should care but i will not force you to care but you need to care for several reasons, i think. and i try to summarize this. you put an author of a 300 page book in front of a microphone and 20 minutes it is a major risk. it is up to the author to figure out how to condense the most important details. i could talk about several questions on the road but this is the one i care about the most because it shows indifference. the reason we need to care, of course, is partly because we need as citizens of a democracy to know the impact of war. we need to ask for more transparency, we need to ask for more monitoring and accountability and in the book

you will see the efforts toward that in this country and as i said internationally. but we need to have more transparency. we need to know what the role of these private contractors is going forward in operations will be and we need to know in the defense and security of our nation or our neighborhoods. you know? where do these people come from? who trained them? what companies are they working foresee that we can learn -- for and week we can learn more details so after three years of studying a report that was released and declared that we are overreliant on private contractors and that including

the vast stretch of contractors in operations with a large focus on this industry. we cannot just look the other way. we cannot just say you do your defense and security. in several very passionate people in the military interviews are very passionate on this topic. you have to feel something to win a war. you have to feel connected. the sit zens of a democracy but feel connected and at the very least need to know who is doing it. when we are told the casulities of the iraq war it didn't including the contractors and between the spring of 2009 and summer of 2011 the contractor

numbers in iraq exceeded traditional military. we need to know that. we need to know that because that is the only way we can, as citizens, understand the full impact of war and we have to know that in order to work with our policymakers and our congressmen and women to make a smart decision about the security and the policies of our country. there is also the one detail is about the statistics and the number of mia's when we left iraq. i think the were eight by may of 2011 and 7-8 were private contractors. some were not from the united states because they were subcontractors or you would have to look at the breakdown of

different countries that we hire private security out of. but 7-8. so one was traditional military and that is another detail. but in the flow of the book, what i am hoping is that you will become as interested as i am in all levels of this industry. the financial level, expansion, history, origins, the need for more monitoring, the many markets, many services, and the issues like i said of the contractors themselves. and some of these statistics as i said are impossible -- you cannot embrace the entire industry and say what the revenue numbers are or how big

it is and how many people it employs so there are individuals and there are groups working on that at the moment also. but at any rate, i want to read you a couple quotes from very bright people i interviewed and then we will move on to questions. i would like to read from the book but i had an editor who said never fall in love with your own writing so when i am on the road i never -- i should not be reading all of the details or paragraphs in my book but i should be reading from the sources and he never said don't fall in love with the quotes of your sources. so there are several here and

one of them is from -- if you wait one second -- actually, let's do a quote at the very beginning from david isenberg who is sitting right here and said this before a congressional hearing and it livens up to helps give you a sense of how intense the reliance is. this statement is about the u.s. government's dependence on private contractors for defense and security and he said think back to the alien series and the films about the indescribable creature that entered the bodies of people and they look normal on the outside but on the inside it has become so intwined inside

that the human would die without it. and here the government is so intertwined with the contractors that the government would collapse without them. and we go to chris shea who was the chair of the war contracting commission. in the spring of 2014 is he said we cannot go to war without contractors and we cannot go to peace without contractors and that is a given. and a former british army officer who has been very active within the industry and was the director of a company, exceptionally bright and generous individual, very deeply involved in the industry for a long time and one of this quotes was that the private military and security companies will evolve into multinational and

mul mul multifunctional firms so governments go to them and get used to rely on them and they will succeed more and more and it will be integrated so future generations don't know notice. traditionally military will be smaller and smaller and industry will continue to grow and grow. and one from a general who, at the command and general staff college, has been very knowledgeable on the topic and been reading about it and informing himself and was quite involved in some of the action in iraq, said the nation state with its flowability to act military is becoming

increasingly vulnerable to easy solutions that avoid it complexity of government. that is the reality and nothing shows that more than the growth of private security and military divisions. systems that have been in place for long sometime are falling apart and the more these companies offer themselves as the solution. and i think that a really good quote to follow that one is a sort of less known quote by eisenh eisenh eisenhower and that is the famous comment in his farewell

address in january of 1951. if i had more time i would go into details about being at the abilene library and seeing their response to cutting the evolution of some of what he said. but one of the comments that you never really read about was the part of his warning in 1961 crisis there will continue to be. in meeting them, whether foreign or domestic or great or small, there is a occurring temptation to feel that some costly action could be the solution to all current difficulties. so, i think that -- how many more minutes do i have? i think that -- there are so

many colorful people in the book. i think i will put aside my humillty and read a couple paragraphs. i will read you the first two and then the beginning of a chapter that is about, i was thinking maybe doug brooks would come tonight, and it introduces you to the trade association for private military and security companies in the united states. so first, i will do one tribute to doug brooks. the book starts with a prologue to introduce the general reader to the topic through a story and then it is in three parts. transformation, which is the beginning evolution of the

industry and as i said corporate evoluti evolution and part two and three which is about expansion and reaction includes congress and military and to geneva. this is the beginning. what the boy would remember most were the shoes. they were not his and they didn't fit but he was forced to wear them for five hours crossing the desert in the middle of the might. they seemed like ordinary shoes but they were different because the heels were at the front. they were inventions of the human smugglers that helped people like the boy escape. the idea was if footprints were

detected the path of the journey would be reversed. the boy wanted to go home that night but what stopped him was was understanding that his backward footprints would lead to the trail leading back and expose his family's fight. he was 14 years old when he was forced to leave iraq in 1985. his mother awakened him telling him he would soon go on a desert adventure for the third time in a year he felt the change courseing through him. the first time was 11 months before whether in the middle of the night he heard a rush of rapid pounding on the roof above his bed. in his half asleep state he had a dream-like image it was his brother coming home. his brother all fled to syria to avoid fighting for saddam

hussein in the iraq war. he began to hear the cracks of wood followed by his mother's screaming. soldiers pounded down the door and took his father away. his teacher, who was a loyal follower of saddam, turned against him. school had been easy for him but each morning began with his teacher's brutal ritual of hits his wrist and slapping his back for information about his brother. this was information that could lead to the teacher's profession. but the boy insisted he knew nothing and that was the true. all he really knew was he hated saddam hussein.

he kept sthat to himself. it was the first piece of hate he had felt but strong enough to shape his life. that is the very beginning. now we will go to a chapter called and now the debate. this is a chapter where i interview four people here in washington with the hope some day those four people would like to participate in a public course on the topic and get into cost effectiveness, human cost, issues of subcontractors to monitoring oversight and transparency and so it begins with the head of the trade association doug burke. so it begins: damn the torpedo

full speed ahead was the cry at the battle of mobile bay during the civil war. and in february of 2012 it was the screen saver message flashing across doug brook's computer that the head quarters of the international stability operation on 9th street in washington. from brook's office window he had a clear view of the square and the statue of the famed admiral. he was revered, he told visitors, for conquering pirates in the west indies. he knew about the isoa as he headed and founded it. brooks was a driven highly excited booster whose job was the clarify the mission and capabilities of private military

and security companies to the outside world. but not too much. he was as one writer once described hip the friendly public face of a secret multibillion dollar business. he was as successful as his hero across the park was in his realm. i could keep reading. but i don't want to be -- in case my editor who told me not to fall in love with my own writing is listening, i don't want to look like i did. i think we should probably turn the session over to you and to questions. [applause] >> thank you very much.

thanks to kramerbooks. long ago, i met james gardner here at kramer books. you know, the art of fiction writer? do you have questions? yes? >> what was the perception of the military? >> well that is actually -- i spent every friday for three months at the command and general staff college and sat in on group discussions because they had a special study in the spring of 2009 on this topic. and there are several majors at the school who had written mongraphs on it early on. very interesting. what they were trying to do that spring was they studied the use

of private contractors in bosnia and that was their case study. and then they had all of these discussion groups about the necessity and how to work with private contractors and so that was the beginning of my research and i was very fascinated by the fact that -- it broke through all stair oh -- stereotypes -- in that spring there was an effort on the part of all of those majors who were there working on advanced degrees or taking their year of study and the concern was how to work with them and to avoid miscommunication and to -- well

you have to read the chapter. but it was a very positive effort on their part. this was on that level and a very serious study like i said of bosnia and also of iraq. and what could have been done better and where does the monitoring come from and how can we expect better accountability. one of the reasons ininternational code of conduct and the swiss initiative is to group trying to establish international monitoring and one of the points they make is similar to what was going on those groups in 2009 which is similar that no government is going to completely regulate these companies. it is probably never going to happen. some of the suggestions were a

regulatory commission or a cabin cabinet post since there are so many contractors in private agencies and what that would look like. there were discussions about that. what does it mean in a democracy to have companies and how do you use them for the benefit of the nation and have enough accountability to prevent misuse and the empowering of the industry itself. the industry getting too powerful as happened with the companies in the 14th and 15th centuries in italy when they hired companies like this. there were many discussions that embraced history and the monographs that came out of what is is the think tank of the

army. and also, as i mentioned earlier, there was a discussion of efficiency and effectiveness because their concern was that these are on-call companies. that is how they market themselves. i think one said they were the fed-ex of defense and security. it is on-call avoiding a lot of the messy process that is involved in pulling together the troops. and so their concern was that, look, the most successful defense strategy in history, and they studied some of those too, are the most successf successfu were not the most sufficient ones. so they had concern about the

on-call attraction of the companies. i mean that is one of the appeals. so, yeah, sort of answer your question. >> okay. david? >> congrats on the book. i think you are one of the few thus far who has done a great display of what happened and showing into the future what should be done. my question is what do you see as the evolution of the industry in terms of domestically and internationally what sectors, you talk about drones in your book, what other sort of missions do you think they will be pursuing both within the country and around the world? >> well, i would like to repeat what he said at the beginning because it was a compliment. but no about pulling things

together in the book. quite a challenge. and his question is what do i see as the future for the industry. many markets and a lot of money is the simple answer. and it is as i said and it is actually the way i describe it in the book which is the -- i have to switch back here, sorry. it wasn't an ad for glasses but, you know, basically in the general's quote i gave you earlier about as conflicts develop worldwide there will be use of these companies. and there is great expertise in

this companies. the array of surfaces offered is so emense. -- border patrol and the immigration situation is frontier for contract whether it is organizations contracting them or homeland security and their border patrol division. the drone industry and that is part of the book i think you will find rather interesting. i did, in terms of the studies, that is the conduit for you. i have been reading studies and interviewing people for years on

this. i ready many studies about the operation of drones and the number of labor it takes. another misconception on the road was it was five or six people focused and pushing buttons but it is hundreds of people. there is a growing involvement in that part of analysis and drones. the drone operation, which going back to the military, was something one of the people i interviewed, someone in the marines said he was concerned about the personalized warfare and when paired with private contractors and drones the average system is two layers

away from the conflict with the machine and the operator of the device. and maritime security. you have to look at this in a fair way. i have been trying to get the truth out without sensationalizing this but making it a compelling story. you have to realize there are examples of success and i would say maritime security is one of them. wouldn't you agree, david? the shipping industry debated this and the priracy and terror at see has demenished. africon is another one. i don't think they would talk about the importance of

monitoring private contractors. the exact words are we have to do it differently than we did in the past and analyze what happened in afghanistan and iraq and improve the situation. i am probably missing something like that. but lots of things. regarding the u.n., a study came out and the problem with the book is it is everchanging and evolving. a study came out a couple months ago showing the budget increased by 300% since 2009 in private security. and i interviewed someone at the un who said part of the reason is obvious. it is becoming so dangerous we have to have armed security. when you read the book, you can see how the parallels of the increased conflict and hostile

environments, of course, has brought an expansion of markets for these companies who can also see that like any industry, there are certain companies that getting the most work which is interesting. 5-6 of them pulled together in one big company including the third incarnation of black water just a couple weeks ago. i may have to be following this topic for the rest of my life. it changes and evolves and it will be interesting to see what happens in the weeks ahead and and the role that private contractors will play. i just did a piece for time inc about how scholars have called the iraq war the first contractors war, i mentioned that earlier, so are we looking at the second contractors war and if so what do we need to do

prepare for that and ask of our government as we go in in terms of transparency and better accountability and oversight? wouldn't it be fascinating if we were told to include the companies and contracts and to be told something about the role of these companies in the larger picture? it seems that would, you know, wi widen the scope of our nation's participation in defense and security. anyway, did i answer your question, david? okay. yes, you had your hand up. [inaudile question]

>> the question was about the un and we talked a bit on that but there is more into the book. and the second question was about regulation in this country. [inaudible speaker] >> they have been addressing the issue. the un is very interesting. there is a group within the un that has been addressing this situation and there are p participants and fabulous people going to geneva regarding this. so the un is involved in recognizing their need for

private security and at the same time recognizing the need for greater monitoring. it is as a un working group on mer mercinaries. there is recognition on the international level and certainly within the un. i think, when i found out that since 2006 there had been people working on this concept of an international regulation. this is ininternational red cross, humanitarian lawyers, human rights first, and members of this industry. this is a bona fide industry and you don't want headlines about bad behavior within your

industry to completely ruin the whole concept of what you do if you are doing a good job at it. you don't want the -- but there are big problems. there are reasons that there is an international group that has been working since 2006 on better monitoring. you know? and since i am in washington, i can say and i don't think it will take away from the sales of my book, but there is a page turner 240 page report that came out of congress, the war time contracting commission report, and it embraces all private contractors in iraq and afghanistan from 2003-2011 and it is fascinating the details about the reasons for the need for better monitoring. and you see that in my book. all kinds of incidents that you

may not have heard about. and everyone who is knowledgeable about this and working on it including representatives of the un are well aware of the possibility for human rights issues, fraud, waste and all of the bad behavior that you have seen flashing in headlines. but they are also aware of the fact that this is an industry that has passed through the portal of permanence so it must be closely monitored and respected for its power and use. and actually another quote from the former british army officer that i quote earlier i thought was really brilliant in that he had that this is the story, the

evolution of the industry, a story straight out of science fiction. there is always the seed and the iraqi conflict watered it big time and now we have a new crop that will spread globally and many years from now perhaps it might have to be stopped but for now it must be used and closely monitored. anyone taking a close look will tell you that. that is part of the inspiration for the book; to deliver a fair analysis that shows all sides and the reality that at this point in the early 21st century what we are looking at. and also be fascinated by it. we are -- this is part of military history, business history and we are watching it. i will do one more quote. very quickly from someone who is

used to be known as or has the reputation for being a once mercinary. and let me see if i can find this. this says a lot about, you know, this was as somebody who runs a very successful company and who worked in africa and is nutoreious in england -- i am not mentioning names. they are in here so you have to buy the book to find the names. but i interviewed him for several hours a couple blocks from here actually. and a couple of his quotes are revealing, i think, about the interesting aspect of the industry and the fact that it is viewed by many who have been following it for years as

something permanent. so that means we need to wake up to it and improve the monitoring. he said in his two paragraphs: alterinately daunting and charming confidant and defensive witty and somber he talked about the evolution of the sector. quote the american companies came later, he said. the british were earlier. '60s-'90s. britain did it was part of the past. it is sort of we have been around doing this thing for a long while. he saw the trajectory align with the railroad industry. they were accused of everything but they were essential as the world was changing and they

changed the world. the global frontier is like america's wild west. so the analogy makes sense. he added another one. you start off wild and then become part of the establishment. experimental music becoming mainstream. it is like rap. it took 20 years and now what is all the fuss about? so i call the chapter what is all the fuss about. so the point is there have been people for years within the industry working on a system of guidelines and regulations. so partly out of the perhaps cynic nature that individual nati nations are not going to regulate them and also because they have become global

wildcards. there are a couple xhafrmz -- examples of that -- in the spring of 2014 and we sold billions of apache helicopters and missiles to iraq and there needed to be more people in iraq to train workers and military on how to use those weapons. so some of the private military and security companies were hired to do that. but we didn't hire them. the iraqi government did. and there are other instances of that. so this is an international industry. it may have gotten its biggest boost from us in the war in iraq with the number of contracts but

we don't own these companies. it is an industry and they are wanting to make money. and that is the facts that you need to get across and my big cause is more transparency and deeper understanding of it and a recognition it is part of our system. yes? >> i am from the industry and i think it is specifically destructive and i think it is -- [inaudible speaker]

[inaudible speaker] [inaudible speaker] >> we didn't go into the chapter where we get into the advocating for a change. i agree. this is my fifth book and i can honestly say it is the hardest i

have ever attempted of any front-page story or book because i want to be fair but it is my instinct as a journalist where we are supposed to find out why things are not working and why people get hurt and why there is fraud and waste and human abuse and certainly in the pages of this book you walk away with a sense of the collateral damage of this industry thus far and that is why it is important and the potential for the same to happen again if we use them again going into the second contractors war quote unquote. but there has to be an urgency about this and the first step in

that is to recognize they exist. you know? and for the general public to recognize that and to get through to them and everyone to want to read this and to realize that what this industry is capable of and why there has to be close monitors. and yes, it is true, any attempt specially one that involves industry in the meetings in geneva which you refer to as the first stage of the swiss initiative, i refer to that as a chess move in the book. when an industry is new zealand -- involved -- in

regulation you have to look at the banking industry. people have no association with the industry except the word black water. so it seems to me the first step in seeing the government pays closer attention and there is more transparency is people have to be aware of it so they can ask their congressmen and women what are you doing about it? who is defending us whether it is the local communities or international? who is defending us? where do they get trained? what companies to do they work? how much is subcontracted to peru or uganda and how well are they trained? just having to facts to ask the questions. but you are right. that is always the case. and there is a -- i would say

and david eisinberger who has been following this for a while, i would say we are at the crossing roads. we have a chance going forward into new operations, this is a moment in time that future historians might look back and say they should have learned lesson x, y and z in iraq and the turning point, the cross roads was 2014-2015. i have >> i have to end it there. thank you so much. [applause] >> thank you for coming. >> thank you all so much. [applause] >> i think we can all be grateful we have the facts and this book. i hope you will come up, say hello, get a book and support your local independent bookstore and your author. thank you so much for coming. >> what she is sg