the davis and johnson relationship. it is also i have written about the relationship between the lincoln and mcclellan. the davis and johnston relationship is based on viewing some ways. basically joe johnston was the mcclellan of jefferson davis. the frustrations that lincoln experienced with him are almost replicated step-by-step. and so it became increasingly clear as i went through this material but that was the case. >> it's about 3:00 o'clock but we might take one more question.

and can you get a sense of who handled it better? we can, had very limited military experience versus jefferson davis and then they don't have any military experience and it seems to make the job. what do you think? >> i think that most people would not do this in tennessee. most would think that lincoln was a better commander in chief than davis. of course, he had virtually no military experience and davis had a great deal of military experience. whether that was the reason is another matter.

and lincoln got rid of other commanders pretty quickly and davis was a little bit more luck than and lincoln seems to have done all right, he won the war it and i don't want to go there. >> okay, no no.

i'm glad to sign your books. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> former "washington post" executive editor ben bradlee died this week at the age of 93. tomorrow we will show you his 1995 appearance on the notes when he talked about his book, a good life. you can watch that tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern on booktv on c-span2. >> a part of these bands campaign 2014 coverage by following us on twitter and like us on facebook to get debate schedules and video clips of key moments and previews from our politics team. c-span bring you over 100 senate and house and governor debates and you can instantly share your reactions to what the candidates are saying. the battle for control of

congress. stay in touch and engage by following us on twitter and liking us on facebook and facebook.com/c-span. >> coming up next, tv presenting a discussion about nelson mandela. it took place at the annual brooklyn book festival. it is about 50 minutes. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> good afternoon. it is high noon at the brooklyn literary book festival. the time here we are opening

with a discussion of nelson mandela and we will talk to you more about it in a minute. also to engage your ideas and thoughts about one of the individuals who is referred to as the greatest men of his age and of his time. i am known as the news dissector. i am the author of a book and i did it as a television documentary film maker and i made six films with nelson mandela, including a film that was showcased his visit to brooklyn in 1990 when he came to jfk into brooklyn and it had an incredible response and reception from every kid in town

with the kind he was unprepared for. so i have been following this story for many years and i will tell you a little bit more about that first ball. before we began the program's, i'd like to let you know that books by authors in the program can be purchased from books on call, new york city, downstairs just outside the building immediately following this program authors will be signing at that location as well. you have with you some people who have spent a great deal of time writing about and living this story and it's destroyed and engage their lives and times and the change everyone who came close to it i think it would be safe to say. change in the sense of possibility and humanity and a sense of the way in which we

struggle for justice and her veil. and i wouldn't say that everyone achieved everything they fought for but they achieve more than they expected and it just marked its 100 anniversary in all of africa. the fact that this actually even happened with something that people told me about and we have the author of a biography of joe slovo. he said i still have to pinch myself to believe that this happened we are here not to talk about nelson mandela, known as grandfather and father of his nation but also someone who

interacted with him and this is what is remarkable. anyone who interacted with him was touched by it because they had such expectations that they looked up at him with such odd. to the surprise of many who met him, he remembered you. he actually remembered you. i was at an event that radio city rainbow room and he was coming to new york and he walked into the room and there was security on top of security and cops and feds and anything you can imagine, waiting for him. we were in the media area to try to film this. and mandela walked around, saw me and walked over to me and said to me that, do you remember me? which, you know, i said i think

so. it was kind of amazing. but it was something that he later testified to. we only have 50 minutes to talk about a life that went on for 95 years in a way that is continuing to this moment. nelson mandela was sort of the best-known brand in the world. so he was known by everyone and loved by almost everyone at least later when it became fashionable and at one point he was detested than feared as a terrorist. and worse. and actually turned in and part of the history it doesn't get much play in "the new york times" or anyone else. by the cia was tracking his movement and turns them over to the south african police which brings the current issue of

surveillance except the year was 1962. not today. and so this is a long story with lots of ups and downs and also a story of triumph that we really need to study and examine and understand. not only for what it meant to south africa but what it meant to us. and that includes why this man from the role backwaters -- in a rural area of south africa had the effect that he had with people all over the world there were not only touched by driven and inspired by his example. so that hasn't ended with us which came about last december.

we should remember he came about because originally he contracted pneumonia in prison and he was a casualty of apartheid. even as he was a her as well and that was quite incredible. we have an amazing panel here today and i'm going to get right to it. i wanted to start with john jacobs who is on the faculty. he is a native of cape town, south africa, has a phd in politics from the university of london and a degree in political science from northwestern university and a doctorate from the college of hard knocks in the struggle in south africa come he's writing a book on mass media, globalization and liberal democracy in south africa. and you you have written not just about mandela that about

how mandela was regarded and idealized and mythologized by the american media, including the recent movie the long walk to freedom, in which i work. i would just say as a parting shot, the last courtroom that i was in was one that was built by the movie the courthouse in which this took place. >> and so by the way, we want to introduce this and that includes alan who wrote a biography and about joe slovo, two of his closest comrades, to the fact

that mandela did not do this alone and that he was part of a movement and was never claimed credit as a liberated south africa and to my immediate left, the woman that i work with and learned so much from that the legendary individual who grew up, i learned in her biography. charlayne hunter-gault. i didn't know that she was born in south carolina. [laughter] and she was one of two students that desegregated the university of georgia from which he graduated in 1963. she's been a journalist among journalists and a hero in the civil rights movement and also decided to do what very few american journalists dead.

she moved to south africa. and someone who was the most knowledgeable journalist in her article about mandela to the left with a piece of introduction that we will move rapidly or in she energy centers was to interview you but my son was graduating from school in atlanta and i have to go there. so i had to postpone the interview and he said very good. he said i would've done that as well. and so he was the father of his nation but also the father among fathers. so please take it from here. >> good morning. i'm sorry, good afternoon.

just to get a sense of how i experienced his legacy. i think it is important for me, when i was born, nelson mandela was already in prison for five years and yet gone to prison already in 1962, but a 1964 he started serving and when he came out of prison i graduated from college. so i think from my child to end early -- not being an adult a coming of age, i was experiencing an absence not my typical presence and not in the media. we barely saw him. and so these early things that i developed was another movement

which was kind of more with the schoolteachers and the local activists coming from that movement and they rejected this and his likeness for being more moderate in this kind of sounds hard. and yet he was being seen not as radical as these other leaders. this includes a major figure of iv this they made a comeback and this is primarily because the african government suited a number of reforms and that includes the united democratic front and that movement

basically took on what would have been popular in the 1950s and it became this is a much more inclusive document and it was social democratic and he became almost like a figurehead with that movement. and you can see the return on street corners written on walls and so forth. and actually this is something that we find in remarkable and i remember an old photograph of the school from the 1950s and that includes joe slovo.

and he said it sounds strange, but that is how they had been told as separatist in this kind of inclusive situation is a project of the state. and they had a very cathartic experience and yet it is important to recognize that while he was out of prison, it was almost this as well. and they had recognized that project had run aground and begun slowly releasing [inaudible] including a cellmate of mandela and others as well. these people came out of prison at least a year before he came

out of prison. so was his experience in the outside world was a major moment. and i just want to make two other points and then i will cause and rejoin the conversation again. he came out of prison that moment we realize that he didn't want to africa anymore. so yes, he was at the head of the movement that identified in the struggle then became a global struggle and there are various struggles. but we weren't aware of that. and so we see all of this coming through south africa and the same thing with ted koppel where

everything is surprised by his manner. and there have been many kinds of ways that people latch onto mandela with the kind of negotiations that he was conducting with the state. and he would be into a national script, a liberal script coming national or social a script. people are ready have been talking about this very differently. and i think that if we were

going to win in the court of public opinion, then we are recounting, you know, the thousands of people that were displaced, remove, murder, and they had to hone in on one personality up until that point he was a major leaguer and he wasn't president of the times. their other political leaders that some people here know about the could make claim to that and i think it was in 1960 and finally i think how he operates in south africa there are two levels. and there are young people and people that were affected or disillusioned with those who see him as something that they have lost the vision and that they

would like the vision to be returned and retained. you find inspiration with even this individual, he broke away from this end on the other it is also in the way that people look at the shortcomings of the south africa. so they see him and this is where he has a very mixed situation, some people see him in those negotiations with the government that he may have given away too much. but that whole crew around him with joe slovo and others that they may have given away in the kind of agreements that they made in terms of retaining elements of the civil service and not dealing with an aggressive policy on land reform

than in other words some form of social engineering and this doesn't mean that he doesn't retain this in south africa. >> we have to be disciplined because we have very little time. charlayne hunter-gault, please go ahead. >> left the following sean. because he raised so many points. not all of which i would respond to. because i think most of them are things that i would understand myself. i went to south africa the first time in 1985 and at that point the regime had begun secret negotiations with him. and he was a loyal member.

and he said i'm a loyal member of the mc and all of that. he had started those negotiations on his own and nobody there knew. they announced the release of him when everyone else was surprised that sooner or later this is going to happen. i went there the first time in 1985 and there wasn't anything conscious about that. ..

and i guess they saw this black person in a car with two white guys and thought it was suspicious. so they followed us. at the driver, i said, they're falling us. he said, don't worry. i lose them. he loves them temporarily. i get out. eighth i see the garden. finally they told me after i strained my eight eyes for so long, look, the security guards will catch up with us sooner or later. that was my first contact. the second was when i got a call from my producer telling me to turn on the

television. i did not ask any questions because there was a sense of urgency in her voice. and the and banning of the anc. without even thinking i said, start packing and did as a ticket because in those days you had to go through london to get to south africa. two minutes later my producer calls and says, you know the news? and i said, yes, jackie is packing. he goes back a couple minutes later and said that jim is not that enthusiastic about you going to south africa. he will only approve it if you can guarantee an interview with mandela. by this time every journalist in the world was going to be trying to get an interview, and i don't know what possessed me. maybe it was the influence of danny schechter. i said to have confidently, well, if anybody can come i can. i hung up and said, oh, my god. what have i just promised.

long story short can only get the interview the only ones to get extended interviews. he was giving 2-minute interviews. after that, whenever i would see him he always knew me, recognized me. and that was very good because, as danny said, the -- what danny did not say was that the interview in which i told them my son would be graduating from emory university in on the same day -- it was the same day he was being sworn in as the president of a new south africa, and it was probably one of the most historic moments anybody will ever experience, except so was my son's graduation. [laughter] and then mandela became what he had been unable to be for more than the 27 years he was in prison because he was on the run for many years, and neither of his family's

-- because he had two, one by his first wife whom he divorced and to buy 20. so he had not been a father to his children. but all of a sudden now he is trying to be the father, not only of the nation, but of individuals. in so as the father he had not been able to be all those years, he leans into me and says very sweetly, well, of course you have to be at your son's graduation, and you can interview me anytime, which was true. anytime i needed to interview him i was able to. i was there when president clinton came to south africa. that was a time when clinton was having some personal issues surrounding his sexual behavior, and nelson mandela was very -- he was advising him in a very positive way and stated very publicly.

at the same time -- and i think, shot, you may agree with this -- and i think that nelson mandela's values are the things that we try to continue to keep alive and embrace more than even his name, i would think. but his values some times conflicted with u.s. policy, even when his good friend, bill clinton, was standing next to him because he was insisting on still being friends with fidel castro in cuba. we had our sanctions on and still do regrettably for some strange reason. i did not say that on television, died? and khaddafi, peron, and i think that one of the lessons of mandela, if anyone is interested, is that you have to sit down sometimes -- well, first of all, he said your enemies

are not my enemies. he said that in front of bill clinton, and he also said it to george bush. he also said -- and i think this is important as we debate this capita -- isis, isil, at any rate he says, you have to sit down with your enemies. sometimes your enemies can be your friends. and it other times you butt heads with him. so i think that as we look at the lessons of mandela, you know, it is not just the reaching out to -- and of course, the south african apartheid regime, he immediately sat down with them to avoid, many think, a firestorm in the country. he was also at the time with friends to south africa but not the united states and western world.

finally, let me say -- i can talk about mandela all day, but of all. i -- i worry. you say that young people in south africa today are talking about mandela and his values and trying to get the anc to remember what they were. there are people like that here in america, young people today in high-school is particularly, but colleges as well that have no memory of the u.s. civil rights movement. moreover as you go on because the civil rights movement fadeout when the free south africa movement revived the diverse coalition that had been a part of the civil rights movement, so that helped to bring about another national involvement in something that was important. but as here in south africa, there is a group called the born free, and they have no memory of south africa.

they know the name nelson mandela, but i am not even sure that they know his values. you have someone like julias , this young firebrand in south africa who is advocating all kinds of things that nelson mandela never would have advocated and having a resonance among young people, the vast majority are black, poorly educated thanks to the apartheid system, which continues to reverberate because teachers who are teaching these kids were taught under that regime. and so they don't really -- they listen to somebody preaching things that will be, in my view, detrimental to the south african economy. i guess my question as i conclude this, you know, how do you can be in america

keep alive the memory not only of the individual like martin luther king and nelson mandela but what they stood for? and out and begin our young people to embrace those values? that come to me, is almost more important than the names of those icons, although i hope they will be generated forever. >> thank-you, charlayne hunter-gault. and now you are not disappointed. alan wieder is an oral historian who lives in portland, ore., distinguished professor emeritus at the university of south carolina and has taught at the university of the western cape in south africa. he has published two books in the last few years. a nobel laureate wrote an introduction to his book

about ruth first and joe slovo. on a personal note i was powerless to the know both joe and ruth and learn from them. i think that experience is one of the great enriching experience in of my time. another argument for why what charlayne hunter-gault says is so important. when we learn about other cultures and people we ourselves can grow culturally. having had the experience of visiting south africa many, many times, i have watched this history through my own eyes, not just the eyes of the media of which was later a part. pick up the story of ruth and joe and connected, if you would, to the madiba story. you have about ten minutes to win and we have to open it up.

>> i intended to come and talk mostly about the word for nelson mandela was we usually rather than i because he knew he was a part of a struggle that included many other people. i was privileged to be able to write about to people close to him over the years. in connecting it to south africa and the u.s. -- we are pretty loose here we talk about it. it made me think about one other thing before i do that the word collaboration is not a great word in south africa caller has not been this correctly, but nelson mandela and the anc and the south and the communist party as groups worked to end the struggle which is of great importance if we continue to look at legacies . part of the problem whether nelson mandela is lionized for demonized is it creates a person that never existed.

i notice about a month ago there was an article, not a very good article in the weekly newspaper in south africa, and it came from some academic conference. a student had written that the problem with history textbooks and south africa today when they talk about mandela is that there was nobody else in the struggle and he did everything. the problem with the article is, it was wrong, even what it said about madiba. and it pointed out things that i knew well from doing my book, that madiba was involved in but was involved and with joe slovo or with ruth first. one of the things this richard brought up was, you know, everyone gives madiba credit for starting the armed struggle. you do an explanation just like organizations in the united states when there was a decision made.

there was great care taken in terms of, we do not kill people. we bomb pylons and take out electrical places. there were mistakes made, but the guy that wrote the article said, no, joe slovo did that, not nelson mandela and he was totally wrong. it was mandela and joe slovo who, in a sense, would have been the authors, but there were many other people that worked on that. a second thing -- i want to give every example. a second thing in terms of his notion of mandela getting credit for everything was ending the arms struggle. and that was obviously after 1990 and negotiations had begun, but things were very, very, very, very tough. again, he said mandela got the credit for doing that, but it was not mandela. he again raised joe's name.

the reality was, he was going to the extreme the other way. of course madiba was involved in the conversations and conversations about some of the things that sean jacobs brought up. they were called the sunset causes that kept certain things in place for politicians and others who had been in the apartheid regime. and it is an interesting thing because he was going, if you give madiba credit for that, that is wrong, but he did not take it to the other place where madiba was involved in collaborations with his comrades in doing that. the same thing was true in an interesting way with the arms struggle with c-span.org and ruth first. ruth first and joe slovo were both students in johannesburg when madiba was a law student there and show

was a law student, too. joe actually in 1961 and 62 was part of the legal team for madiba when madiba was sent to prison. and there was a connection also because they were all defendants in the treason trial in 1966. and that might have been part of the beginning stages of the cia trying to track nelson mandela when most everybody was acquitted. there was up party at the joe slovo house and madiba was smart enough not to go because he knew he had to get underground. one of the guests was this guy called milford shirley who was the cia agent who eventually gave the word to the south african security forces where they would find madiba a couple years later. but in terms of the armed

struggle, and has since it was madiba who announced it. and in fact, it was ruth first who facilitated it being announced. you start to think of these connections. madiba was underground. ruth first was a radical journalist in south africa, and she set up an interview in the home of a professor because mandela was underground. he announced that we had tried in a peaceful way for so long to make a difference , and every time we do something peacefully the response is more harsh, and it has come to the point that armed struggle might be the only possible way to go. so one last thing that i want to talk about to bring it to the topic of mandela in the united states, which i think -- i cannot say it today, but i think it is a

schizophrenic story. here is a man that was so demonized. and it -- mentioned she had a long interview. i think i am talking about a different thing. here in new york there was a town hall meeting held with madiba the first time he came to new york. and ted koppel was the host. and it was at a lecture hall at city college of new york where actually madiba had been given an honorary doctorate in 1983 when he was still in prison, which is pretty amazing actually. the crowd was overwhelmingly thrilled to be able to see him. i mean, when he breezed they clapped, you know pleiads it was a total set

up three. people ask questions from the audience, and then they piped in questions from south africa on screens. and except for earth -- actually for one, maybe to questionnaires the questions were, i'm going to show that you are a marxist. i am going to show that you hate israel. i am going to show that you are friends with castro. and he was absolutely brilliant. it did not matter what they said. they tried very hard to have conservative african americans ask the questions. they had to have a leader from the american jewish prayer wrist him, but that's another story. for example, this woman those, we are very worried about the journey of the economy. can you tell us how you think the economy bulb go. finally she could not help

herself and said, are you going to be marxist, socialist, capitalist. and he said, i was thinking you would get to the real question. then he gave his pragmatic cancer. he also spent a lot of time really going hard at the clerk for creating and nurturing black on black violence. and they piped in chief buthelezi, the head of in cards and to ask a question so it was the total set up. and then at the end about 45 minutes and ted koppel came back to wanting to talk about israel. and madiba in a very stern voice, he had used their ," your enemies are not our enemies. and he said, i'm going to

read a paragraph. then i will be done. i think it is him at his best. he goes, apparently you have not listened to my argument. if you had done so you have not been serious and examining. tried to picture ted koppel. i replied to one of our friends here that i refuse to be drawn into the differences that have existed between the various communities in the united states. you have not commented that i am going to offend anybody by refusing to inform myself and the internal affairs of the usa. why are you so keen that i should inform myself -- i don't think he meant to inform, but in the internal affairs of cuba and libya? i expect you to be consistent. now, think about television, all right. ten seconds of silence.

>> one of the amazing things about this was, television came to south africa in 1976. sun nelson mandela, you know, was already -- had already been convicted , was already in prison, had not watched television, did not grow up the way we did. in fact, the south african government refused to allow any pictures of him to be taken or shown in the south african media, so no one could actually see him. and for him to become, as they say, you know, an incredible pond and, if you will, in tv terms, without ever experiencing the media, to speak in the wake, his insight as someone who knew how to communicate with people in mastering this medium even though he was of unskilled and unprepared for it. and this is part of the reality of america which

looks at the world through the bubble of tv and the images of tv and often miss the subtleties, the context, and the background. i think what mandela brought was a kind of honesty that we really see on television, a willingness to challenge his questioners. you know, i am thinking about that. even in south africa -- and i just have to tell little story -- >> let me do one sentence because it brings it to the end. a looks -- ten seconds to go by. he goes, mr. koppel, have i paralyze you? [laughter] and ted koppel goes, oh, i can not be paralyzed that easily, mr. mandela. let's go to break. [laughter] and then -- and then they come back and he says something. i guess i was somewhat paralyzed.

mandela just takes his hand and i'm done. [applause] >> all right. let's go to get any questions. there are microphones on both sides here if you would lineup. try to keep the questions short. we are running out of time. i made an appeal at the beginning of this. nelson mandela lived for 95 years, can't you give us 95 minutes, but they turned me down. we have to finish at quickly if there are questions, please raise them and introduce yourself, if you will in the microphone. if not, we can continue this conversation. >> while people are making up there minds about standing up i want to quickly respond on the question of. [indiscernible] he started his own political party and then did really well in the last election, something like 5%.

and since the election he has changed the way that people look at politics because the embarrassment of the anc which most people used to watch soap operas. now they watch congress. but i want to say something. what she -- what we should recognize, we forget that the anc also used to be like that. they wore uniforms. mandela used to break up meetings. politics in the 1950's was robust. and mandela, two things, he called for the nationalization of industry and also called for land reform, talked about corruption, and finally he himself said, if you don't -- if the government does to you what the apartheid government did to you you should get rid of this government. it so i know what you are saying, they don't often know about the history.

it is true. their experience is only the anc as the government. they know nothing about apartheid. when he died of a couple of days while it was on tv, suddenly people, young kids, oh, this is that history. it has something to do with the election result the next year. in a way people were confronted with this history they have forgotten. >> i accepted it is not consistent. you have a moment when they pass away, and then it is forgotten. the one thing we have to continue to remember is this democracy is only 20 years old. they will make mistakes, as we did in the united states. but i lived part of the year in martha's vineyard, and there is a vine growing in my backyard. it has yellow, red, like a tiger lily.

anyway, it is a fine. and so you can pull it out here, but in a few days it is over here. and so all i am saying is, i want us to appreciate that south africa is only 20 years old and is young. democracy is taking what i call baby steps, but if they don't rule out some of the corruption that comes from the top and if they don't get themselves somehow to hold politicians accountable , it is going to be like that a fine in my backyard. despite the fact they are only 20 years old. to your point about -- i see no one standing up, so i am going on. to your point, i had a conversation just yesterday with someone who was very -- who actually, you would say, is part of the new black ruling class in south africa who shocked me in her positive