large army of mixed artillery, infantry and maybe some cavalry. he didn't have the experience and the qualifications to manage the logistics for a large army. soforce was really good at what re did but probably would not have been very good in a larger capacity. >> the gentleman raises the question of seniority, too. he would have had to jump forrest above a lot of people who outranked him. and that's often a sensitive question. not that it can't be done but it's a sensitive issue. there's a microphone. >> thank you. i'm tim johnson from lipscomb university where you'll be speaking the 15th of next month. >> right. >> we look forward to that. i have a question about this

part of the country during the war. can you comment a little bit more on davis' relationship with bragg, why he would have kept bragg in command as long as he did, and also, do you have an opinion about who davis might have turned to to command the army of tennessee? >> well, first on the bragg question, when i began the research for this book, i shared the negative consensus about bragg as a commander. but the more i got into the material, the more i got into the research, the more i began to doubt that stereotype. bragg was not a likeable guy. no question about that. he was a stern discipline anywheran, unpopular with his men and part of the problem in his relationships with his generals was the nature of this

personality. s' was quarrelsome. he was a sub busch train over troops. davis was impressed when bragg took raw troops, organized them into what turned out to be the crack division that fought at shilo, when bragg wanted to continue the attack at shilo, when beauregard decided to bull back at the end of the first day, and when beauregard went in effect a. w. o. l. after the battle of shilo, bragg seemed a natural choice to command that army because he seemed to be the most effective commander within the army. and i think that his problems with his subordinates, like polk, and hill later on,

buckner, and some of the others who intrigued against him, were more their doing than his doing. they did not give him the kind of cooperation and support that subordinate generals, core commanders are division commanders, ought to give their general, and that radically diminished the effectiveness of the army of tennessee. part of it is bragg's fault. no question about that. because of his, i think more than thing else, his personality. but i think a good -- even larger part was the egos and personalities and am birks of some -- ambitiouses -- amibitions of subordinates and i'm sort of in the camp of davis considering bragg to be with all of his faults, probably the most

logical person to command that army, but it was clear after the fiasco of chattanooga and missionary ridge that he that 0 go toe go. the other part of your question, who should have replaced system beauregard was the other possibility. but davis lacked confidence in beauregard, too. he was in davis' eyes, almost potentially as bad a choice as johnston himself. davis really felt that he was forced to choose the lesser of two evils, beauregard or johnston, and the pressure -- most of the pressure was to -- in behalf of johnston and so finally he, holding his nose, i think, figuratively, did appoint johnston. good ahead. >> your turn next. >> thank you. of course, it's commonly known that so many of these northern

and southern generals were all -- all knew each other at west point, but was there an open or common analysis among the confederate generals as well as davis in looking at mcclellan's performance and then estimating what he probably would not do, particularly when he was facing johnston? why did no one else except lincoln see he had a case of the slows. >> other people did see he had a case of the slows, especially lee. when lee became commander of the army repeatedly took advantage of what he knew would be mcclellan's sluggishness and caution and defensive-mindedness. that's why lee launched his attack in the seven days and repeatedly attacked. that is why lee invaded maryland in the fall of 1862.

so, wasn't only lincoln who saw mcclellan had the slows. confederates realized this, and i think they took advantage of it. >> i felt you made a pretty compelling case for davis' position. is this based upon material that was not available to, say, some of the earlier evaluations of davis, or is this simply your revisionist that's? >> well, i suppose it's mostly the latter, but to some degree, it's partly based on newly -- new material. there's been major project going on nor last dozen years or -- well, maybe 15 years, at rice university, to publish all the papers of jefferson davis. and they have only recently gotten all of the wartime papers completed and published, and so

being able to use that, which previously had not -- some of it had not previously been available to historians -- is one of the things that helicopter persuade me of some of the points i have been making here in this analysis of the davis-johnston relationship. it's also my perception dish mean, i've written about the lincoln, mcclellan relationship, and in a way, looking at the davis-johnson relationship was an experience in deja vu. basically, joe johnston was jefferson davis' mcclellan. the frustrations that lincoln experienced with mcclellan are almost replicated. step-by-step, by davis' relationships with johnston, and it became increasingly clear, is a went through this material, that was the case. >> i see it's about 3:00, and

somebody needs this room after us. we might take one more question. >> thank you. just to pick up on what you were saying, the inherent tension in the american system between a civilian commander in chief and military officers. can you get a sense of who handled it better, lincoln with very limited military experience, versus jefferson davis and then comment on our current situation where we tend to have commander in chiefs who don't have any military experience. is that -- what is the better thing? should we be looking for presidents with military experience? does it steam make -- your assessment on that. >> well, i think most people would maybe not here in tennessee but i'm not sure -- most people would think that lincoln was a better commander in chief than davis, and of course, lincoln had virtually no

military experience, and davis had a great deal of military experience. whether that was the reason is another matter, but lincoln was quicker -- well, that may not be true help did fire mcclellan, but of course, davis fired beauregard. lincoln got rid of other commanders pretty quickly, who didn't measure up. burnside, hooker, pope. davis was also more reluctant, i think to remove commanders. but if -- the situation was different. what the implications for the contemporary situation might be is that lincoln had no military experience, obama had no military experience, lincoln seemed to have done all right. he won the war. maybe obama is more qualified that someone who did have military experience, but i don't want to go there.

>> thank you very much. i believe that we're going up -- i think up to the auditorium for the book signings up there. i'm not sure where. i'll be glad to sign your books. >> thank you very much. [applause] by

next, book tv and primetime, presenting a discussion about nelson mandela. this took place the ninth july brooklyn book festival. it's 50 minutes. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> good afternoon. it's high noon. at the brooklyn literary festival, it's high noon here at the brooklyn law school, and today we're opening with a discussion of nelson mandela, who we'll talk to you more about in a minute, and also to engage your ideas and thoughts about one of the people who was referred to certainly as one of the greatest men of his age and of his time. my names danny scheckter, known as the news dissector. i did as a television documentary filmmaker, i made six films with nelson mandela, including a film that showcased his visit to brooklyn in 1990, when he came out of jfk, into

brooklyn, what was then boys and girls high, to incredible response and reception from the streets from every kid in town, from mass, welcome, of the kind he was unprepared for. so, i've been following the story for many, many years and i'll tell you a little bit more about that. first of all, before we begin the program, i'd like to let you know that book by authors in this program can be purchased from books on call downtown stairs just outside the entrance to the building immediately following this program, authors will be signing at that location as well. so, you're in for a treat today because you have with you some people who have spent a great deal of time writing about and living this story. it's not just the story that people wrote about academically but a story that engaged their lives and times, and it's a story that changed everybody who came close to it.

i think it would be safe to say. changed their since of possibilities, sense of humanity, their sense of the way in which people can struggle for justice and at least for a time prevail. i wouldn't say that everybody achieved everything they fought for, but they certainly achieved so much more than they expected when they started. it took a really long time. the anc itself marked its 100th anniversary. the oldest liberation movement in all of africa. so, the fact that this actually even happened was still something that people told me about, including joe slovo, the author of aeye biography. he said, i still have to pinch myself to believe that this happened. so, we're here to talk not just

about mandela, known as madiba in south africa, known as grandfather, the father of his nation, and also somebody who -- anybody who interacted with him. this is what is remarkable. anyone who interacted with him was so touched by it because they brought to it such expectations that they looked up at him with such awe. at the same time to the surprise of many people who met him, he remembered you. he actually remembered you. i was at an event at rockefeller --ed a radio city -- rain -- rainbow room. he was coming to new york and walkeds' the room. there was security on top of security. laced with security. cops, feds, anything you can imagine. waiting for him. we were in our little media area to try to film this event, and mandela walked into the room,

looked around, saw me, walked over to me and said to me, do you remember me? okay? which was -- i said, think so. kind of amazing but it was something that a lot of people later testified to. we only have 50 minutes to talk about a life that went on 95 years and mystique and myth in a way that is continuing to this moment. nelson mandela was sort of the -- they said after coca-cola the best known brand in the world. he was known by everyone, loved by almost everyone, at least later when it became fashionable to love him. at one point he was, of course, detested, feared, as a terrorist, and worse, and actually turned in, in part of a history that doesn't get much play in "the new york times" or

anywhere else, by the cia, who was tracking his movements and turned him over to the south africa police, which brings the current issue of surveillance we're all concern about, very much into the focus, except the year was 1962, not today. so, this is a story, long story, a story with lots of ups and downs, but also a story of triumph that we really need to study and examine and understand, not only for what it meant to south africa but what it meant to us, and i think that is the part of what we'll be exploring today, is why did this man from the rural backwaters in rural area of south africa have the effect he had on americans and people all over the world who were not only touched but

driven and inspired by his example, and that hasn't ended with his death, which came about last december, and we should remember came about because originally he contracted pneumonia in prison. so he was a casualty of apartheid. even as he was a victor over apartheid. and that was quite incredible. so we have an amazing panel here today, and i'm going to get right to it. i wanted to start with our visiting -- not now visiting but living in new york, south african, who -- sean jacobs, on the faculty of the new school. a native of capetown, south africa, ph.d in politics from the university of london and ma in political science from northwestern university and a doctorate from the college of hard knocks and the struggle in south africa. he is writing a book now on the

intersection of mass media, globalization, and liberal democracy, in post apartheid south africa. sean you have written not just about mandela but about how mandela was regarded ideologized, and mythologized by the mesh media, including the recent movie, "long walk to freedom "on which i worked, and i would say as parting shot the last courtroom i was in was a courtroom built by the movie to resemble to every detail, the courthouse in which the trial took place. and in which he was convicted and sent to prison for life, and that's a story in itself told in the movie. anyway, sean, take it on. by the way, just want to quickly introduce, having a little competition from the masses here -- the midget masses -- allen widener, who is here, who

wrote a brilliant biography of right first and joe slovo two of mandela's closest comrades, testifies to the fact that mandela did not do this alone and was part of a movement and never claimed credit as the liberator of south africa, and to my immediate left, woman that i have worked with and learned so much from that -- the legendary, sharlene hunter gall, who grew up, i learned in her biography -- give her a hand. i didn't know this -- she was born in due west, south carolina, due west, south carolina. and she was one of the students -- two students that desegregated in the university of georgia. she has been a journalist among journalist, and a "shero" in the

civil rights movement in america but also at a point in her life decided to do what very few american journalists who are interested in the south africa story did, she moved to south africa and moved to live there, and to work there for npr, for cnn, and someone who is probably one most knowledgeable journalists about south africa, and in her article in the new yorker, a -- we'll move rapidly -- she told him, i was supposed to interview you but my son was graduating from school in atlanta and i had to go there. so i couldn't -- i had to postpone the interview. he said, very good. he said, would have done that, too. he said, you can always interview me. but you can't always be at your son's graduation. so, he was the father of his

nation but he was also a father among fathers. sean, please take it from there. >> good morning -- sorry, afternoon. i thought what i would do is material a personal story to explain how i experienced nelson mandela's legacy. it's important for me, when i was born nelson mandela was already in prison for five years of a sentence. he had gone to prison in 1962, but in 1964 he went -- started serving the treason service. and when he came out of prison, i graduated from college. so, if you are sought african in my generation, what is important for people to recognize, from the childhood and much of my sort of early -- not being an adult but coming of aim, if you want -- coming of age, mandela was -- i experienced his absence, not by his physical presence north in the immediate

a, censorship. we barely saw mandela. so, these early political controversies i developed wasn't very much the anc but another movement that allen has written a book boot, one of the leaders of the movement which was kind of more trot skiite -- i come from a working class background but they rejected the anc and reject mandela and others for like him for being more moderate and this sounds odd because there was mandela in prison for treason, and he was being seen not as radical as these other leaders. the interesting thing is by the early 1980s however -- the period i just talked about with steve pico. another major figure gut the anc made a come baeck inside south

frequently because the government instituted reforms to split the black population, and the response was a movement called the united democratic front, and that movement basically took on the iconography, that had been very popular. so the document was a freedom chart about thinking bat future for south africa. wasn't always very specific was social democratic and left wing, and nelson mandela became, if you want, almost like a figurehead, talisman for that movement. so i was in high school and you see the return -- you see on street corners, free mandela, written on walls and so on. i've told this story before but i always find it remarkable this is how i saw mandela. when i was in high school in 1985, there was a state of emergency and a friend of mine brought an old photograph to

school from then 1950s, and he said, it was mandela as a zulu and slovo, and he said this guy is mandela, and you have to remember this may sound strange but that's how the censorship of the state -- they were being called separatist. not a for an inclusive future and they were opposing the separatist project of the state. so then to fast forward, mandela comes out of prison and for a moment, like all south africans it was a very cathartic experience and it's important to recognize that while mandela walking out of prison is seen as almost like the symbolic end of apartheid, the south african state, by the late 1980s, recognized that project had run aground and had begun slowly releasing other major political

leaders in south africa. people like a cell mate of mandela, these people came out of prison at least a year before mandela came out of prison. what was the experienced in the outside world is this major moment, which it was, was already preceded by other releases, and i want to make two other quick points and then pause and i'll take -- i'll rejoin the conversation. when he came out of prison, is that moment where always we realized he wasn't this -- he didn't belong to south africa anymore. so, yes, he was at the head of a movement that was identified as being particularly south african and scores of people here know better, the south african struggle became a global struggle since the late 1970s and and throughout the 1980s, with the sanctions movement, divestment, other struggles in the u.s., but we weren't aware

of that. so when he comes out of prison and we see all this media coming to south africa, there's a famous interview with ted koppel where everybody is sort of surprised by his manner. but we are sort of -- at that point we also lose mandela in a way to the world, and so there are then many different kinds of ways that people latch on to mandela and read their hopes into him. so did we. our frustrations with the kind of negotiations he was conducting with the south african state and also beyond that, he would be read into a third world script, an africaage nationalist script, social democratic, liberal script, people ready -- very differently. i think that the two other quick points i want to make. snatches inasmuch as he is considered the father over south

african nation -- this was a deliberate on the part of the anc, they realized by the late 1970s that if we were going to win in the court of public opinion then merely recounting the thousands of people that are being displaced, removed, murdered, or released all political prisoners, they had to hone in on one personality, and nelson mandela was a major leader of the anc but was not the president of the anc at the time. so there are other political leaders in south africa, like oliver tumble, who could lay claim to the title, or albert who won a nobel prize in 1960 that can make a similar claim to that. finally, i think how mandela operates in south africa and perhaps even outside south africa is two levels, both at the level of inspiration and if you good to south africa there are young people, there are

people who were disaffected disillusioned with the anc who see mandela as something that they lost that's correct the anc lost though vision of nelson mandela and they would like that vision to be returned and retained, and they find inspiration in what mandela has done, like squatter movement, and they see mandela as inspiration, and it's also in the way that people look at the shortcomings of the new south africa, and mandela has a mixed legacy. some people see him in this negotiations he conducted with the apartheid government, that he may have given away too much, but the people around him -- not just him but the whole crew around him, they may have given away too much in the kind of

agreements they made with the apartheid government in terms of retaping elements of the civil service, not dealing with an aggressive policy on land reform, not deracializings communities, social engineering. so in the way that affirmative action is not being implemented in south africa. so all these levels people do have their questions about mandela, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't retain a sort of larger than life image in south africa. >> we have to be disciplined because we have very little time and want to involve audience questions. now, sharlene hunter-gault. >> going with you now. i'm glad to be following sean because he raised so many points. all of which i would like to respond to because i think most of them are things i would have said myself. ...erstand myself. i went to south africa the first

time in 1985 and at that point the regime had begun secret negotiations with him. and he was a loyal member. and he said i'm a loyal member of the mc and all of that. he had started those negotiations on his own and nobody there knew. they announced the release of him when everyone els the anc and everyone else in the world was surprised, although they expected that sooner or later this was going to happen. i went to south africa for the first time in 1985 when there was beginning to be -- there was not a great consciousness about south africa, mandela, anything else in '85, and the media would not particularly focus on south africa.

so i wind in '85 and a 5- part series when madiba had been transferred because those negotiations have quietly began at that time. and someone told me that mandela had taken up gardening and if i went to a certain hill i could probably get a glimpse of him out watering is plants. so i did this with two of my white south african colleagues. and as we passed the prison i happens to look over, and i guess they saw this black person in a car with two white guys and thought something suspicious. they followed us and the driver, i said, they're following mass. he said don't worry, i'll lose them. he lost an temporarily. i get out the car, looked over, see the gardens but not to madiba police finally told me after straining my eyes for i don't know how long, look, the security

cops will catch up with the sooner or later. that was my first contact.. that was my first contact. the second was when i got a call from my producer telling me to turn on the television. i did not ask any questions because there was a sense of urgency in her voice. and the and banning of the anc. without even thinking i said, start packing and did as a ticket because in those days you had to go through london to get to south africa. two minutes later my producer calls and says, you know the news? and i said, yes, jackie is packing. he goes back a couple minutes later and said that jim is not that enthusiastic about you going to south africa. he will only approve it if you can guarantee an interview with mandela. by this time every journalist in the world was going to be trying to get an interview, and i don't know

what possessed me. maybe it was the influence of danny schechter. i said to have confidently, well, if anybody can come i can. i hung up and said, oh, my god. what have i just promised. long story short can only get the interview the only ones to get extended interviews. he was giving 2-minute interviews. after that, whenever i would see him he always knew me, recognized me. and that was very good because, as danny said, the -- what danny did not say was that the interview in which i told them my son would be graduating from emory university in on the same day -- it was the same day he was being sworn in as the president of a new south africa, and it was probably one of the most historic moments anybody will ever experience, except so was my son's graduation.

[laughter] and then mandela became what he had been unable to be for more than the 27 years he was in prison because he was on the run for many years, and neither of his family's -- because he had two, one by his first wife whom he divorced and to buy 20. so he had not been a father to his children. but all of a sudden now he is trying to be the father, not only of the nation, but of individuals. in so as the father he had not been able to be all those years, he leans into me and says very sweetly, well, of course you have to be at your son's graduation, and you can interview me anytime, which was true. anytime i needed to interview him i was able to. i was there when president clinton came to south africa. that was a time when clinton was having some personal issues surrounding his sexual behavior, and nelson

mandela was very -- he was advising him in a very positive way and stated very publicly. at the same time -- and i think, shot, you may agree with this -- and i think that nelson mandela's values are the things that we try to continue to keep alive and embrace more than even his name, i would think. but his values some times conflicted with u.s. policy, even when his good friend, bill clinton, was standing next to him because he was insisting on still being friends with fidel castro in cuba. we had our sanctions on and still do regrettably for some strange reason. i did not say that on television, died? and khaddafi, peron, and i think that one of the lessons of mandela, if anyone is interested, is

that you have to sit down sometimes -- well, first of all, he said your enemies are not my enemies. he said that in front of bill clinton, and he also said it to george bush. he also said -- and i think this is important as we debate this capita -- isis, isil, at any rate he says, you have to sit down with your enemies. sometimes your enemies can be your friends. and it other times you butt heads with him. so i think that as we look at the lessons of mandela, you know, it is not just the reaching out to -- and of course, the south african apartheid regime, he immediately sat down with them to avoid, many think, a firestorm in the country.

he was also at the time with friends to south africa but not the united states and western world. finally, let me say -- i can talk about mandela all day, but of all. i -- i worry. you say that young people in south africa today are talking about mandela and his values and trying to get the anc to remember what they were. there are people like that here in america, young people today in high-school is particularly, but colleges as well that have no memory of the u.s. civil rights movement. moreover as you go on because the civil rights movement fadeout when the free south africa movement revived the diverse coalition that had been a part of the civil rights movement, so that helped to bring about another national

involvement in something that was important. but as here in south africa, there is a group called the born free, and they have no memory of south africa. they know the name nelson mandela, but i am not even sure that they know his values. you have someone like julias , this young firebrand in south africa who is advocating all kinds of things that nelson mandela never would have advocated and having a resonance among young people, the vast majority are black, poorly educated thanks to the apartheid system, which continues to reverberate because teachers who are teaching these kids were taught under that regime. and so they don't really -- they listen to somebody

preaching things that will be, in my view, detrimental to the south african economy. i guess my question as i conclude this, you know, how do you can be in america keep alive the memory not only of the individual like martin luther king and nelson mandela but what they stood for? and out and begin our young people to embrace those values? that come to me, is almost more important than the names of those icons, although i hope they will be generated forever. >> thank-you, charlayne hunter-gault. and now you are not disappointed. alan wieder is an oral historian who lives in portland, ore., distinguished professor emeritus at the university of south carolina and has taught at the university of the western cape in south africa. he has published two books in the last few years.

a nobel laureate wrote an introduction to his book about ruth first and joe slovo. on a personal note i was powerless to the know both joe and ruth and learn from them. i think that experience is one of the great enriching experience in of my time. another argument for why what charlayne hunter-gault says is so important. when we learn about other cultures and people we ourselves can grow culturally. having had the experience of visiting south africa many, many times, i have watched this history through my own eyes, not just the eyes of the media of which was later

a part. pick up the story of ruth and joe and connected, if you would, to the madiba story. you have about ten minutes to win and we have to open it up. >> i intended to come and talk mostly about the word for nelson mandela was we usually rather than i because he knew he was a part of a struggle that included many other people. i was privileged to be able to write about to people close to him over the years. in connecting it to south africa and the u.s. -- we are pretty loose here we talk about it. it made me think about one other thing before i do that the word collaboration is not a great word in south africa caller has not been this correctly, but nelson mandela and the anc and the south and the communist party as groups worked to end the struggle which is of great importance if we

continue to look at legacies . part of the problem whether nelson mandela is lionized for demonized is it creates a person that never existed. i notice about a month ago there was an article, not a very good article in the weekly newspaper in south africa, and it came from some academic conference. a student had written that the problem with history textbooks and south africa today when they talk about mandela is that there was nobody else in the struggle and he did everything. the problem with the article is, it was wrong, even what it said about madiba. and it pointed out things that i knew well from doing my book, that madiba was involved in but was involved and with joe slovo or with ruth first. one of the things this richard brought up was, you

know, everyone gives madiba credit for starting the armed struggle. you do an explanation just like organizations in the united states when there was a decision made. there was great care taken in terms of, we do not kill people. we bomb pylons and take out electrical places. there were mistakes made, but the guy that wrote the article said, no, joe slovo did that, not nelson mandela and he was totally wrong. it was mandela and joe slovo who, in a sense, would have been the authors, but there were many other people that worked on that. a second thing -- i want to give every example. a second thing in terms of his notion of mandela getting credit for everything was ending the arms struggle. and that was obviously after 1990 and negotiations had begun, but things were very,

very, very, very tough. again, he said mandela got the credit for doing that, but it was not mandela. he again raised joe's name. the reality was, he was going to the extreme the other way. of course madiba was involved in the conversations and conversations about some of the things that sean jacobs brought up. they were called the sunset causes that kept certain things in place for politicians and others who had been in the apartheid regime. and it is an interesting thing because he was going, if you give madiba credit for that, that is wrong, but he did not take it to the other place where madiba was involved in collaborations with his comrades in doing that. the same thing was true in an interesting way with the arms struggle with

c-span.org and ruth first. ruth first and joe slovo were both students in johannesburg when madiba was a law student there and show was a law student, too. joe actually in 1961 and 62 was part of the legal team for madiba when madiba was sent to prison. and there was a connection also because they were all defendants in the treason trial in 1966. and that might have been part of the beginning stages of the cia trying to track nelson mandela when most everybody was acquitted. there was up party at the joe slovo house and madiba was smart enough not to go because he knew he had to get underground. one of the guests was this guy called milford shirley who was the cia agent who

eventually gave the word to the south african security forces where they would find madiba a couple years later. but in terms of the armed struggle, and has since it was madiba who announced it. and in fact, it was ruth first who facilitated it being announced. you start to think of these connections. madiba was underground. ruth first was a radical journalist in south africa, and she set up an interview in the home of a professor because mandela was underground. he announced that we had tried in a peaceful way for so long to make a difference , and every time we do something peacefully the response is more harsh, and it has come to the point that armed struggle might be the only possible way to go.

so one last thing that i want to talk about to bring it to the topic of mandela in the united states, which i think -- i cannot say it today, but i think it is a schizophrenic story. here is a man that was so demonized. and it -- mentioned she had a long interview. i think i am talking about a different thing. here in new york there was a town hall meeting held with madiba the first time he came to new york. and ted koppel was the host. and it was at a lecture hall at city college of new york where actually madiba had been given an honorary doctorate in 1983 when he was still in prison, which is pretty amazing actually. the crowd was overwhelmingly thrilled to be able to see

him. i mean, when he breezed they clapped, you know pleiads it was a total set up three. people ask questions from the audience, and then they piped in questions from south africa on screens. and except for earth -- actually for one, maybe to questionnaires the questions were, i'm going to show that you are a marxist. i am going to show that you hate israel. i am going to show that you are friends with castro. and he was absolutely brilliant. it did not matter what they said. they tried very hard to have conservative african americans ask the questions. they had to have a leader from the american jewish prayer wrist him, but that's

another story. for example, this woman those, we are very worried about the journey of the economy. can you tell us how you think the economy bulb go. finally she could not help herself and said, are you going to be marxist, socialist, capitalist. and he said, i was thinking you would get to the real question. then he gave his pragmatic cancer. he also spent a lot of time really going hard at the clerk for creating and nurturing black on black violence. and they piped in chief buthelezi, the head of in cards and to ask a question so it was the total set up. and then at the end about 45 minutes and ted koppel came