strictly nonfiction. a lot of debts and i respect that. but still, still, i didn't want this book to be just a painful gruesome duty, just an important scary book. i wanted it to be a pleasurable reading experience, a page turner. i wanted to have moments of suspense, have mystery and discovery, moments of heroism by some of the scientists out studying this sort of thing and even some moments of humor. it is not a very funny book but i hope it might be the funniest book about the bowl you ever read. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. next, karima bennoune, professor of international law at the university of california davis school of law spoke about her book "your fatwa does not apply

here: untold stories from the fight against muslim fundamentalism" at this year's book festival held in austin. this is just under 45 minutes long. >> karima bennoune is a professor of international law at california davis school of law. he grew up in algeria and the united states and lives in northern california. the topic of "your fatwa does not apply here: untold stories from the fight against muslim fundamentalism" is a personal one for. her father was an outspoken professor at the university of algiers who face death threats in the 1990s but continued speaking out about fundamentalism and terrorism. in writing this book karima bennoune set out to meet people who did what her father did back then, to garner greater international support that algerian democrats received in the 1990s. she graduated from a joint program in meeting eastern and north african studies in michigan, from the law school

and graduate school as all graduates certificates in women's studies. terp publications have appeared in many leading academic journals and been widely cited in nation magazine, dallas morning news and the christian science monitor and the u.n. special record for of violence against women and the u.n. special protecting human rights while countering terrorism. she left around the world that has been invited to speak about "your fatwa does not apply here" in algeria, egypt, poland, turkey, senegal and the unaided kingdom as well as around the united states. she served as member of the executive council of the american society of international law and the board of directors and amnesty international usa and sits on the network of living under muslim law. karima bennoune has consulted on human rights issues for the international council on human rights policy, the coalition to stop the use of child soldiers after is the united nations

education apology and scientific and cultural organization, a human rights field missions included afghanistan, bangladesh, lebanon, pakistan, south korea, southern thailand and to nietzsche. in 2009-2010 she was one of a group of international experts and the auspices of the judge for ministry to develop a new set of policy recommendations on counterterrorism and international law. the travel to algeria in february of 2011 to serve as observer of protests for women's articles for the guardian. october of 2011 she volunteered as that consistently election with jenna concerns. most recently writing about north and west africa appeared in the san francisco chronicle and new york times and open democracy. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> i would like to read a

selection from your book. >> let me say thanks to everybody for coming out, thanks to the texas book festival for having me here. my apologies for starting a couple minutes late but that happens when you try to bring your luggage into the capitol building. i want to tell a story and i am glad i got a laugh because i want to tell a story that is not funny at all, a story that is at the heart of my book that stays with me all the time when i do this book because i am a law professor and this is the story of a law student and i want to give you some background before i read this story which is called dying for knowledge. this story takes place in algeria. in my father's home country. in the 1990s in what algerians call the dark decades. this was a decade of violence between jihadists groups that were the so-called islamic state of that time in north africa and the algerian government backed by the military.

we don't know the exact figures but somewhere between a one hundred thousand and 200,000 people were killed primarily by the armed groups and there were gross abuses committed by the state and this happened in relative obscurity. the international community did not pay much attention. this was the free 9/11 world and globally we had not woken up to the dangers posed by jihadists movements. in that context i would like to share this particular story. is what of the 5:17, that is the moment she fell in the streets on january 26, 1997, an instant after a member of the armed islamic group cut her throat on the outskirts, in november of 2012 when i am able to locate them east of algiers i spent several hours talking with her

mother and surviving daughters. sitting on the couch in front of her aunt wears a long blue dress and glasses that paying around her neck. bose stalwart and shattered she shows me emmel's watch which was returned to her by the police. it features a small green flower buds just under the spot where the gas -- glass is broken. the second hand still aims optimistically aboard, frozen 57 seconds after 5:17 and approaching 5:18 it will not come, 22 years old and a third year law student at the university of algiers, emmel lived in the dorm, on the seventeenth day of ramadan, a day known in commemoration of a historic muslim victory. keyboard the bus for her home

town and would never finish law school. emmel's mother tells me what she heard on the bus. just outside the town the vehicle was stopped at a fake checkpoint. emmel occupied a seat behind the driver who was a neighbor of hers and held her school that. she did not cover her head in algiers she had a friend's shawl wrapped around her hair when the men from the armed islamic group climbed aboard. one came to emmel, hit her on the shoulder and said partisan of the government, get up, someone kill her. they grabbed the law student by the arm and she dared to say don't touch me. according to haria she looked at everyone, the mother appeals to her daughter's, passengers as she weeps and tells me the story, emmel did not speak

debate deal with her eyes to save her but no one could. when they got out of the bus one armed man had a knife and was rubbing it on the pavement preparing to kill her. there are two versions of what happened next. some said emmel was kicked as she fell lot of the buzz and fell to the ground. others remember she had her throat cut when she was still standing. her death was an atrocity. it was also meant as a warning. in the moments after her watch stopped the gia men told all the other passengers if you go to school, if you go to the university, the day will come when we will kill all of you just like this. the terrorists posted placards all over city saying they must stop studying and stay home. as a law professor i so much want to understand, would

continue legal education when she could and would be murdered as the results. apparently emmel said to her father rivals the lot and you will always have your head held high. i am a girl and you will always be proud of me. i will do the work of a man. a house lifelong dream the average children studying and all six of them did. her sister explained our mother inculcated in as the idea that studying means you are a free woman. mom said i am ready to lose all four of them. i will sacrifice them for knowledge. when people remember emmel being assassinated by terrorists they say she was the girl who was killed for studying law. people say she was an example for this. when still cherishing the values she died for her death was also

an agony for family. so was that way the family found out about it. it was their home town outside of algiers. and no running water at the time and no electricity after the terrorist in the power station. and the family was never sure when to expect emmel or the other daughter's home. 20 policemen showed up at the door and faced with the mother and her younger children the policeman found themselves completely unable to give the news they want to give. how many daughters she had his studies in algiers and told her enigmatically she and her husband had been convoked to meet the prosecutor the next day. their work and done, the cops drove off and left the family wandering in the dark. haria had a bad feeling. any of her college students daughters could have been headed

home that night. when the police left the group of neighbors came to the apartment and the bus driver's wife. and emmel baked the driver's wife, tell me, the driver's white share is much as she could. they cut your daughter's throats. this answer that terrible questions. and one neighbors said the one who wore glasses, no one seemed to know the precise fact. with no one giving her a definite answer and no working telephone, haria ignored the curfew and took off with her long debate young son running to the streets until she got to the police station. when she found herself face-to-face with a john barber she remembered she had said my son, tell me, how many of my

daughters? only one. the one who is at law school. and wearing jeans and a coat. the bereaved mother insisted swear to me. cheese war. in the most awful moment of her life haria felt gratitude, i afraid and i sat and kissed the earth and said god, give me strength. all three at the university, it was a less painful but it was one ravin two or three. even though she had not lost all three data is the reality the one was gone, and the agony gave way to rage. i said everything that came into my mind, that was the hour my struggle began. and the long walk, the desolation, and where she lived,

along the road mama in salted the terrorists, she didn't stop. the police said fun 10 others lost their childhood did what she did. and there are many who died before emmel but no one had done what mom did. it was enormous to make that journey, not to have fear. it might have been in her head, who cares anymore? in the dark streets of the martyred town she taunted those who had taken her child, you killed emmel, now come and kilby. after her jeremiad the policeman came to the house and told her husband and the rest of the family they all had to leave immediately so they buried emmel and left their lives behind them. one of emmel's gender sisters later overcame her own disparage went to law school, and practicing today as her older sister hoped to.

something that is possible but armed fundamentalism was largely not completely defeated. fundamentalism will not win even if they say god is great all day long. the other sister, the lawyer's sister takes me into the fall living room to see emmel's friend portrait which hangs in the wall which pitch black hair falls below her shoulders and luminous dark eyes. the centerpiece of this room. she was not smiling when the picture was taken but her determined expression displays what a classmate of hers told me of her, she had those the eloquent and lively personality needed to be a successful lawyer. she had a big future in front of her her classmate recollected. somehow in the portrait on the living-room wall emmel looks both serena entirely aware of

what her future might hold. apparently she said to her mother a few weeks before her murder, put this in your head, nothing will happen to us. if something happens, you and dad, you must know that we are dead for knowledge. you and father must keep your head held high. emmel's watch stopped at 5:17 but she lives on in algeria and everywhere else that women and men continue to fight fundamentalism like she did by striving for knowledge and keeping their heads held high. [applause] >> something i loved about your book is you are able to balance so eloquently very dramatic

difficult stories to read with hope, as with encouragement for people to continue to do good in the world's. i want to hear a little bit about reporting on the use feeder program in pakistan the theater workshop. tell us about that and what lessons, while practicing feeder is a form of resistance. >> great question. let me start with the hope part. hope is absolutely critical in this story. emmel's name means hope in arabic so hope is the theme throughout the book. i found myself looking for her hope. she somehow managed to maintain hope. one of the places that i found emmel's hope was in a wonderful workshops that you mentioned in

pakistan, this is a wonderful cultural arts organization that for decades has promoted pakistani performing artists and has brought performing artists from around the world to play across pakistan. a famous playwright, the company was named by his son's daughters who run after him and in about 2008 they started to receive death threats with the rise of jihadists group, frets that condemns them and music and dance was not islamic. i have a great privilege of meeting one of the siblings who ran the company and he absolutely rejected this characterization of their work. he is quite a religious person himself in a very spiritual, mystical way and for him, song and dance was a part of worship.

and continued with their performances but unfortunately the jihadists refuse to give up as well. in 2008, of their eight world performing arts festival was actually struck by a bomber with three explosive devices that injured nine people which was very serious but luckily no one was killed. they had to evacuate the entire premises. it is a difficult question in a way that relates to the theme of optimism which is do you go ahead the next day with the festival? do you decide freedom of expression and the arts are so important that not withstanding the threat you will go forward? or decide the safety of your audience is so important, primary that you can't take that responsibility. the long debate, the family decided literally the show must go on. ladies and gentlemen, this is not going to work.

this festival is going to go ahead. they announced they would go on as planned but had no idea if anyone would come. think about it. when you made the decision to come here today if you had to wonder if there was a possibility of a bombing at the event that radically change the calculus, those of you with kids and tier dais had lots of children who came to the events, and thought they had to go around so if you got down to the islamists we will be sitting in a dark corner and there will be nothing. thousands and thousands of people came out the next day, more people than they had at their events before and they were delighted and terrified and he ran to a woman who had come into these then you with two small children and you do know

there was a bombing here yesterday and you do know there's a threat of more bonds today. she said the i knows that but i used to come to your festival with my mother and i have those images in my mind and i want the festival to go on and we have to be here. with those amazing audiences, that optimism and commitment you have to finish the festival on schedule and of course they lost all their sponsors the following year because sponsors were afraid of security threat. when i met them in 2010, they were in the middle of the first subsequent event they were able to have been the same venue where the bomb had gone off in 2008, that was the ninth use performing arts festival and was an environment when the pakistani taliban had begun their systematic targeting of

girls' schools that would later culminate in the attack on a heroic -- in that environment, did they try to be careful, shy away from the danger, and the girls' school theater. when i arrived i had a great honor of seeing main wall which was a musical performed by the girls at gramercy. and holding their breath collectively to see if we could get to this wonderful show and there was this group exhale and a burst of applause. i remember standing with an ovation with weeping mothers and proud father's, and thinking bombers made headlines two years ago for their pessimism, their

violence, this night full of hope and optimism is absolutely as important to the story but a story that is much less likely to be told. >> i am glad you are telling it. i wonder what you think the most important lessons from your book should be for an american audience, why is it important to know these stories and what should we do about the issues they bring out? >> a great question. i thought about that a lot. how to boil this down to the take away and particularly the take away in this context in the u.s.. everywhere you hear about radical jihadists and fundamentalist movements, there are also people in this context,

artists, ordinary people who were organizing against those movements, defying those movements and losing their lives to stand up to those movements and we don't hear about those people and that has to change. and the successful profits of defeating those movements which is critical for human rights. you have to listen to people on the front lines who have the most experience with dealing with these movements and have a very sophisticated analysis that doesn't get translated into english those are not people invited to talk on cnn and a responsibility to listen to those people so for me, that is first and foremost the key take away. >> people are interested in lining up in the center in the center aisle, you have

questions? i want to ask about isis as well. they have come to power after you wrote this book, but i know that will be on a lot of people's minds and i wonder if you could talk a bit about what the appropriate strategy for the u.s. to deal with that would be, is that useful and appropriate answer to what we are seeing, and -- >> what is interesting if you look at the media coverage including the new york times, and isis on the ground has been around much longer than media coverage. when it was just local people in iraq and syria, kurds very often standing up to these movements sometimes dying in droves. the world was not paying attention and that is a terrible

shame. i am glad the world is paying attention. now because we have waited i think it will be even more difficult to take on these movements. it is so important not to think of isis as a security threat which is especially in the region but also globally, but to think of it as a threat to human rights. and a human-rights struggled to remember the syrians and iraqis and kurds in the contexts that have been against these movements, why are we not hearing about them? i think about aspeaking out pubg isis, in particular for its destruction on historical sites in the home town and i keep

wondering why we never see her picture on television along with pictures of the horribly murdered journalistsnd i am glad we see their photos but we should see her too and so many iraqis who stood up to these movements. i wish i could have gone to iraq for my book but for logistical reasons i wasn't able to although i was lucky i was able to interview a wonderful iraqi women's rights defender who has an organization called the organization of women's freedom in iraq and this remarkable organization today is not only speaking out against isis's atrocities, sexual slavery and what appears to be widespread use of rape, forcing women to dress in certain ways, using corporal punishment when women do not, they are denouncing those abuses but they are also running a shelter on the ground

in iraq for women fleeing from that violence and even have a help line that women can call in need of assistance. think about how courageous it is to do that work. one of the key challenges is to find out how best to support those organizations, those individuals on the ground who are taking this issue on, you can go to this web site for the organization and find out ways to support them. i do think force is an appropriate response in certain circumstances. two armed groups that systematically target civilians but it may be the only way to protect civilians and it is one of those cases. that force always has to be used in accordance with international law both the u.n. charter and the laws of war, the geneva

convention and their additional protocol. as i mentioned earlier, the last -- the first part, what i said, sometimes force is necessary and the right sometimes doesn't like the second part, that the rules still apply. for me it is a complicated reality. force can only be a part of the solution. force is of very blunt instrument and has to be a much broader approach that includes support for human rights defenders in the region that includes massive economic reconstruction, support for it humanists' education which everywhere i went people told me was the most important solution to the problem. >> do we have a question? >> i am curious as to why -- to my mind the fact that the united

states forcing jihadists -- >> at the present moment in the past in afghanistan and the distance passed, so why aren't you talking out against that? isn't that the first thing to do as well as to reduce our traditional support for the propaganda, also underwriting the jihadists movement? >> i don't have that as my key take away because the u.s. is not the center of everything. not everything is always about us. [applause] >> people have their own regional dynamics. i do address the negative role u.s. foreign policy has played in the region including some of the things you alluded to. support in the past for the mujahedin groups and the most

extreme groups in afghanistan in the war against the soviet union that helped the problem metastasize because young people from algeria came and got training and was supported by the u.s. and saudis and so on and went home. in the iraqi context there is no question and i say this in the book, what i believe was an illegal u.s. war in iraq in 2003, clearly created the situation in which the isis problem is now unfolding and the u.s. is clearly warned by this including allies in the past. hosni mubarak with him i didn't agree about a lot of things but i agree about this. if you overthrow saddam hussein you will create a thousand osama bin ladens and that is basically what happens. there are both endogenous and the zionist causes of muslim fundamentalism and she autism. my father was an anthropologist, but that meant internal and

external. you have to look at all those causes and layers of responsibility. i worry sometimes in the middle east in north africa that people use the ideas that this is all coming from the west as a conspiracy theory that alleviates the responsibility to talk about the causes closer to home like the way religious education has been carried out but you are right. for americans it is critical to have the discussion about how our policy has contributed to this problem and therefore how we have an obligation to help solve it. [applause] >> i hear you talking about force. let's talk unstable government and politics and how you separate the military, our history, the question is iraq

has a stable government, do we see any stabilization of the iraqi government for the foreseeable future. isis took over because the army abandons fantastic weapons. and billions of dollars, how do you separate the commingling of unstable governments with military force? >> as i said, it is critical, forces are responsible for the response. you use the force you need to try to protect the civilian population in the immediate circumstances. of big part of the solution in the iraqi context has to be a political solution and a big piece of that is overcoming sectarianism in the new iraqi government and i know there's some optimism about some of the new nominations and great pessimism about some of them. the interior minister who is

said to have ties to very nasty shiite militia groups that helped to create the angle among cities in iraq to foster this problem. we need to stop talking in sectarian terms. we heard a lot of iraqis complaining about that. they saw the u.s. in particular pushing a sectarian agenda which was the agenda that they really need to be able to move forward in iraq. >> my question is from an american perspective, it is difficult to get accurate information what is going on in the middle east. do you think al-jazeera is a good source or would you recommend some other source of the best accurate information we can get on what was going on in the middle east? >> the lot of people in the u.s. seem to like al-jazeera as an

alternative news source but for me it really looks like the fox news of arabia. it depends. al-jazeera arabic and al-jazeera english carl little bit different but many people in the middle east and north africa especially women's rights defenders will tell you their view of al-jazeera especially al-jazeera arabic is it is a couple refinanced station that promoted fundamentalism and been soft on fundamentalism in many instances so i would encourage you to look for alternative independent news sources. a source that i love that i write for a lot the tries to publish voices from the region including in translation is a wonderful website calls open democracy and you can find voices from tunisia, voices from syria, voices from iraq. this is critical that we find ways to listen to people who are not necessarily communicating in english and make their material available.

you can also do what i did also is getting more dangerous and that is go to the region and talk to people. i interviewed 300 people from nearly 30 countries and we can't always believe what we are necessarily hearing in the headlines. you have to work a bit hard yourself to get out there and find more of the truce. >> my name is valerie. i was wondering about -- i think it is important that we should be engaged with what goes on in the middle east. i am a writer as well and we are having problems in america too and i was wondering -- to get engaged with what goes on. i was wondering can -- what can a person do to get informed? i notice it was important for a

person to have insight, to be a part of a movement that made a difference and i was wondering what can i do to get engaged with what goes on? i am in a struggle in america. when you talk about the middle east and the young woman and the terrorists groups getting involved. in america, it is important for us in america to be a part of a movement that not only affects us abroad but also domestically and i wonder what we can do to getting gauged. >> absolutely true there are serious human-rights problems that need to be taken care of but we also have to care about what happens on the other side

of the world. i believe in human universe of rights and solidarity and every one of these stories i heard wherever i went whether it was my father's home country or another, really became a part of me and i hope so we will both think locally and think globally and act locally but also thing globally and act locally. both of those pieces are very important. one of the things we can do in terms of people getting involved is bring some people like those in my book to the u.s. to talk, to be heard for themselves, to shares these stories. you can do that in a range of ways, with the book, with the website for the book which is karima bennoune.com. there is an excerpt there that you can share. salon.com ran an excerpt of the artist's stories and you can share those as well. i think it is so critical, one of the things we can do is to help these people be heard here.

>> can you talk about the egyptian military establishment and they're smashing of democracy in the form of the muslim brotherhood and how are we supposed to choose in terms of human rights in that struggle because both seem to be lacking in human rights? >> the first thing i have to say when asked a question about egypt is to express solidarity with the people of egypt after the horrible killings yesterday of 33 egyptian soldiers in the sinai peninsula. it is amazing if you think about the press coverage that was given justifiably to the canadian soldier killed in ottawa on tuesday, we hardly heard anything about this mass killing of egyptian soldiers by a jihadists group in the sinai peninsula yesterday, one in a litany of big killings of law-enforcement and military

personnel there. the situation in egypt is complicated and we don't have too much time for me to go into it. no question the military-backed government is also committing abuses but i think likewise i understand why a mass movement of egyptian last summer, not this summer but the summer before strongly felt they did not want the muslim brotherhood in power when they saw how the muslim brotherhood was trying to install a theocratic constitution in their countries that would set it back for years when they saw the way in which the muslim brotherhood was further cracking down with restrictive dress on women and so on so i can understand the popular anger against the muslim brotherhood. the egyptian activists i talked to, one in particular that i think of, and still determined

to have another alternative which is neither the military nor the muslim brotherhood. that is the key challenge before people across north africa today, one thing that is stressed to me, and to understand there are multiple sources of frets to human-rights, there is mainly discussion in the west about military repression and it is good to discuss that, women's activists put in jail and journalists but in jail and all of that is wrong whether it is happening in the name of fighting the brotherhood or not. we also have to talk about the large-scale terrorism that is being carried out by jihadists movements, some allegedly since some of these are happening at least with some pollution of the muslim brotherhood but that is not clear. that challenge remains free egyptian to find a really

positive outcome for their revolution which was not a revolution designed to install a theocratic dictatorship or to bring back the military. it was about building something better and in my book i call these the imaginary and political republics of north africa borrowing a phrase from an algerian writer and i still believe those republics are out there somewhere. >> thank you for your informative talk. i was wondering how you balance condemning muslim fundamentalism and not being seen as part of the islamowphobia, how you balance condemning fundamentalism with not being seen as part of the islamowphobia that is taking hold of the media in the u.s. and what you mean by the term a fat fatwa? >> i think it mixes things, it mixes criticism of islam and criticism of any religion is

acceptable depending on how you do it but is mixed with discrimination against real or purported evidence people assumed to be muslim and that is a very real concern. we seen the rise of the far right in the west that has a particular anti muslim anti-immigrant agenda. that is not my agenda and high-end half since this a that. i believe both the right and left at times in the west of gotten this wrong and on the far right increasingly we are hearing this suggestion that all muslims are somehow less leaper so waiting to be sparked into action and that is offensive. but i absolutely believe people of muslim heritage have the right and indeed the responsibility to speak out against fundamentalist movements and i take seriously the plea

from the break pakistani human rights lawyer who asked us in the diaspora please to speak up in support of people like her in pakistan working for peace, working against terrorism and the asked about discrimination and said i firmly believe if you speak openly and clearly about this problem thereby distinguishing it as a political phenomenon which does not reflect the views of most muslims there will be less discrimination, not more. that is what i am trying to with many other people to do. [applause] >> thank you very much for joining us. >> is there a nonfiction author or book you would love to see on booktv? send an e-mail to booktv@c-span.org. tweet us at booktv or post to our wall facebook.com/booktv. this is booktv on c-span2, television for serious readers. here is the prime-time lineup,

stephen johnson looks at six innovations that made the water world. >> next google eric smith end jonathan rosenberg talk about the lessons they learned while helping to grow google and described how the company and website work today. during this event hosted by the computer history museum, the co-authors of how google

works are interviewed by marissa mayer, president and ceo of yahoo!. this event is 75 minutes long. >> our subject tonight is how google works of man we will examine that question in more than just theory. google vice-president eric schmidt and jonathan rosenberg is here to discuss their new titles. most of all, it is an authentic inside look at the culture and practices behind one of the world's most successful companies. what a moderator we have to lead the discussion. marissa mayer, president and ceo of yahoo!, herself the 20th employee of google. she saw a lot of this from the inside and is now seeing it again from the ceo's office. please join me in a welcoming eric, jona