than i've been alive, and there's many millions of afghans who live in a world that only knows world and devastation, and so this is how cultural motif come out this kind of milieu, so i think that this sort of tendency to switch sides or to support both sides is almost like cultural tradition. take hela, for example. she is somebody who worked for the united nations secretly in 2003 and 2004 because her village didn't believe that women should work. so, she secretly had a job with the u.n., helping women -- helping register women to vote. two years late sher she was also secretly supporting the taliban, and you could read about why she does that in the book, but that is -- i asked her -- it was jarring to me when i learned this how much could you do both?

it became almost second nature for her because she that four children and has to do what she has to do to survive. there are other cultural institutions which also help the administration of deprivation of the war. for example, institution of dispute resolution through tribal councils and through religious councils that exist in afghanistan, and more use that be made of these sort of local dispute resolution mechanisms to help resolve local conflicts. right now most of the time when there's a local conflict -- say you and i have a conflict over land. we both -- there's no land deeds. this is a country without official records no land deeds and we both say this is our piece of land empathy would we resolve it today is by shooting each other or if i have access to the afghanistan government or you're a member of the taliban, or if you're a member of the taliban, i say he is a spy with the u.s., and that is how these

things tend to be resolved. but there is a long history of other type of dispute resolution methods, tribal council, which more efforts should be gone into helping support. >> i'm confused about the role and effect of the u.s. military. from what i hard you say, when the first came in 2001, after 9/11, that led to the taliban and al qaeda leaving the country. but yet by their continued presence and their errors or activities or whatever happened, that led to them coming back. so i'm wondering, what do the people of afghanistan -- what would they want nor u.s. military to stay or go? and has the effect of lowering -- what has been the effect of lowering the number of

troops there? has it been better or worse for the situation? >> thanks. it's complicated because, as i said before, afghanistan is a very divided society. first of all, it's important to recognize the war in afghanistan has only being fought in half the country. roughly speaking the south and east, and pakistan to the north which is also violent but generally about half the country where the war is actually being fought. i went back in april, february and april, i went and took other drive to the south to the war zone and i was asked people do you want -- at the time the question was, should afghan government sign a bilateral agreement with the u.s. which would legalize an extended u.s. presence, and most people, 90% i spoke in toe in the areas where the war is being fought opposed in such agreement. the logic was they may not like

the taliban but that one less side that is shooting. people think about their families. so, on the other hand, if you good into the areas where there is no war, which is northern afghanistan, kabul, it's the opposite. people want the u.s. to stay because they view the u.s. as a buffer against the war encoaching upon their territory. so i drove up north and the people are like -- the government should sign this agreement, we want the u.s. to stay in both cases, though, the logic was literally about what will keep us safe it? wasn't about some vision of what afghanistan should look like. it is what will keep us safe. people in the north left through tremendous suffering in the 1990s under at the central been, and before that people in kabul lived in suffering under the civil war. people in the south lived through tremendous suffering now and want to do anything they can to see that stopped.

you have two different communities. you don't get that in the news media because most journalists tend to speak to people who are in the cities or who are in the north because that's where it's safer to operate. if you go to the south it's a different story. >> this relates to his question. is there a solution and what should the united states -- in an effort to be wisely -- what is a wise solution the u.s. can take? steps. >> you know, i was -- i'm reminded of the israeli novelist who talked about -- talking about the israeli-palestine conflict but apeninsulas more to afghanistan and talked about two traditions of tragedy in literature, one is the shakespearean tragedy and one is jacobian tragedy, and enough the

shakespearean tragedy, at the end of the day, everybody is dead. usually. romeo and juliet, every is dead and miserable, and in chekov, the end of the day everybody is miserable and hate each other but they're still alive. if we can get a chekovan tragedy. number one, there has to be a concerted serious effort to negotiate a settlement with all sides. i think the prisoner chang from guantanamo for bergdahl was an excellent step in the right direction. i say that while knowing there's so many different hand in the cookie jar and maybe a negotiated sentiment will never happen but each if i won't happen, aspiring to it or inches towards it can yield positive benefits, i think, and so i think that's important. number one. number two, we as the u.s. -- we

need to change fundamentally the -- our relationship with afghanistan. it is a case today that the afghan government is unable to raise taxes. so the budget for the afghan government comes almost entirely from foreign aid. in other words, the community is propping up the afghanistan government and with stow stopped paying for the afghan government it a would collapse tomorrow. this is a question of sustain expect how to get the afghan government to actually -- or afghan society to have this independent economy so that one day, the international community can go away and disengage. unfortunately, this goes back to the tension between short-term and long-term thinking was honesting to before. ...

>> >> can you speak will about that and were you ever afraid for your life? >> it is a little different than it was too day because that the time what actually

did is actually got permission from the leadership to do it. you just can drive into taliban territory you're probably end up on the video somewhere. so i connected to leadership. it turns out there were people in the main prison and i used to sneak into the prison there was some big taliban groups but i would talk to them. i gain their trust to the point they could connect me to people. only after i got that that i

did spend one month but today a lot of the people that i met one of the muslims that were killed it contributed to that. but today if i showed up with a letter from a leader to savage journalist it's probably would not matter there probably kill me. would not do it the back that was a little bit easier >> thanks to the audience for being here today. [applause] if you are interested in continuing the conversation he will be signing books.

[inaudible conversations]

and now for tonight's program the history of computing is the ongoing story is one of the greatest periods of creativity in human history populated with the most fascinating people of our time now one of the most distinguished biographer's has taken upon to produce an exceptional results. the biographer of course, is

walter issacson. mcginniss award winning best buy biographies of benjamin franklin comment weinstein and steve jobs the ski nose to pain done a very large canvas and looks at "the innovators" how a group of hackers, geniuses, and geeks created the digital revolution" all of us have learned to and are delighted that he does have his energy can and has tapped into a directory. they're all here. and also has a story about the lesser known icons like the women, is that hackers and rebels. in to give rise to the world wide web bid defense sorts out the real story behind al gore and the internet.

[laughter] he will take to solve their abbreviated journey tonight. please join me to welcome walter issacson. [applause] >> is great to be back. it is such an honor to be back here. >> you were about to reveal your inner geek yourself. this is always good to give back. >> did you develop a fascination with that type of technology? >> no. one of the things that you learn as a biographer is my dad was an electrical engineer you can understand

however transistor capacitor how you make a circuit and i was so fascinated by that i wanted to convey that excitement. in figuring how to make a circuit in those devices are so closed up we don't have that hands on feel and excitement that i had growing and. then net 1.my boss said who owns the internet? i thought what a close question and. who built the? i thought it would be interesting to figure out

and then to meet all these people he said yes to the intersection of the internet with the personal computer with the steam engine in the mills of the industrial revolution. so i realize we have lots of books about the industrial and scientific or the french revolution north american revolutionary. of the digital revolution even though we live in it every day. because going back to the roots of computing. but as long as i embarrassing every member of my family my daughter with the type of family that we

are shapes to the contrary to my wife was getting of little january like why haven't you written in? nellies -- she said i have done it and send it in. she said it was on an lovelace. actually i did know who she was met by cannot remember what she did that would help define the a digital and computer revolution. so my daughter got me turn gone to lovelace. i was already writing this book i was working off and on 15 years but i needed a frame. but the partnership with charles babich that is the great connection of the humanities and to processors

and to talk about steve jobs. per call that every product line she had the intersection of the liberal arts and technology. in that is what lovelace warrant with her bother as a pole with her mother as a mathematician and she had that intersection from captives of the digital age. >> there is a thesis so that everyone understands with the key to innovation in with ideas their practical engineers partnered closely to turn concepts into contrapticontrapti ons and collaborative technologist to turn it into practical products. you referred to the ecosystem of begin in begin

with the process of collaboration. he would call her my a news she was not as good a day mathematician and she would believe it she could look at the sequence as the first published program whenever somebody disparages of lovelace we should celebrate it. it is today. [applause] i say okay to me the sequence of the numbers and how you read charge that on the mechanical processor to generate them then people understand what it's a partnership she had and how important she was with

babich trying to create what he thought was a numerical care -- calculator. but she had a great insight not just numbers. her mother took her to england to look at the mechanical reading room several using punch cards you have those because to the industrial revolution that lovelace saw on that trip. now her father literally the only speech he gives of the house of lords is to defend the followers that are smashing though blum's because they thought to put people lot of pork that disruptive technology idea is not new. [laughter] vico's back a long time. so instead of thinking the machines will put people to work she said these punch cards, it will make the

machine me able to read pattern suggests like the loom can. so then she said the machine can do anything that can be notated symbolically. not just numbers and words. it will make music she said. pictures and patterns. it would be a computer not just a calculator. she is pretty awesome. >> host: you point out simultaneously one of the most over appreciated and underappreciated why is that? >> guest: i think she's is grab on jews sometimes. there are a lot of good books about her. there has been two books one has the wonderful letters in the great analysis book

initiative as favorable to lovelace and babich with the most scientific is dorothy stein, a ada but if i could find it there is such a controversy by kind i'd like controversy. but there is some guy who has a ph.d. at harvard and said he too was a manic depressive with the most amazing delusions' and as mad as a hatter contributing more little man trouble. i don't thank you have to oversee her accomplishments in order to marvel at how wonderful that was she

conceived the humanities to be connected to the machine. the interesting thing is that it is very collaborative than people work together than after words they find out who deserved the most credit. mckeon, jr. -- with the into the air with this i did more. i did more. you see this all the time so i tried judiciously to say by the way this revolution is so amazing there is enough credit to go around we should not fight over it. >> we have four stories. first with babich then the enigma and then through the

apple one in thin their loss of talk about though women so now turn to codebreaking unit did something interesting which is to explore the magical year of 1937 when everything seems to be converging at once teeeight. >> guest:. yes with history or technology and is not totally to diversionary but that was one of those years because of the combination of science to figure out the information theory people understand into logical sequences based on the on/off switch that they have

the backroom -- the vacuum tubes going to make these advances and then a teacher of had many things that the machine could do everything. there is one thing a machine can never do. and that is think for the humans have the creativity. so they say that is the love lays objection. so he calls that of a lovely subjection. how do we know that?

had to put the machine in the room and you cannot tell the difference after a while there is no empirical reason. did it is ingrained a movie is coming out in a few weeks and it is about that. now there are two strands of computer history the lovelace strand for the combinations of humans and machines that will be more powerful and that is one of the scenes. talking about how watson in the end was built to become more powerful to be combined with the imagination of humans.

pro so that a secret facility that machine there is the enigma machine and fortunately but one of the amazing things is to figure out is the first electronic operable computer and they use it to break said during code so when they argue what is the first computer? if you think it has to be electronic a logical sequence it should be

digital, of breaking the code on that machine. >> there are few other players that i will bring into the drama. you explore that story in detail but it is section they recreated. >> guest: we do. he led particle for and i don't give credit for building the machine i was kind of worried what they would say but i got a right to in the book can hear is the argument. it does not say into the notion that he is a bit of a loner. jiving alone one night to --

driving alone one night comes up with the notion to do logical thinking. he goes to the basement of july with stage he is just a graduate student but they get it pretty good. it is a nice little machine that they can never fully get it working for. because they don't have the mechanical engineers. and in the end the people have no idea what this contraption is a and they throw away. and they had to recreate it to be a part of the museum so without the execution is never really executed so i don't think he could be called the first computer.

>> host: sauternes to the one that you do prefer in the pecking order that was later calling to at university of pennsylvania. >> don in his typical of the great innovators as someone who would love to go around to pick up the idea is. he was one of those people during lecturers or the explorers club are going to dinner. starting in the thirties to go to places like the world's fair there are

people who have greece under their fingernails we have a part of it on loan from the smithsonian downstairs and it is the first truly working machine edits three programmable thanks to the women and is solely electronic thanks to my with state and it actually works. so i tend to say if you look for the one that works and is programmable and digital and electronic that is the

first computer but typically we all collaborate to take things from one another. debate takes each other's ideas than couples whose microsoft but not surprisingly there was 15 years of a lawsuit because after it is built it because of his unit back in the commercial form then they start to force the patents and then the says vicki maddow of nassau in he took my ideas so for 60 years they have a lawsuit over the deserts the patents but in the and the court ruled but

did not give the patent to anybody which is probably correct because it was collaborative. may cause the lawsuit that his invention of the computer's. >> exactly with all due respect to the lawyers in their room that is so whole notion of historical invention to that copyright lawsuit there is a wonderful wine of course, of those who are pictured almost sighed ms. tate - - simultaneously do the microchip in their favor both such a decent people they always gave each other the credit before the lawyers could settle finally stay just got together five shifts hands and said stop

fighting and get the lawyers out of it. >> host: go back to the whitman it is up part of commuting were the mostly math majors from a small midwestern college. they decide there will be designed the task of programming this computer why are they simultaneously playing such of role? >> this is happening during though war and the computer was originally done to calculate miscall trajectory for artillery in as the war is ending by 1946 they realized that to build that

hydrogen bomb concept actually worked and the women are the ones to understand how to program it. but then the boys with there toys thought that they were in charge that the night that they unveil it finally it is valentine's day and "new york times" is there and it will finally show up. they do the program. and then everybody goes to a candlelit dinner at 10:00

with the black-tie but the women are not invited. and so everybody feels included. [applause] but is online now. the tiny town.

won a seven rate children's -- seven or eight children. sold for $78 she can go to missouri state and then to seize the advertising. right now that cost $40,000 a year - - 14,000 year we should not cut off the ability to get a good education and. [applause]

and then she went to continue her career. and then they made up for it to. because they fired a lot of people but then fired her and marry her. and so it is interesting few women going into route computer science now then 20 years ago. it is a terrific film that is about the history of these women is out.

>> there is another one. you should go on line it to google them. >> host: mentioning these semiconductor earlier to talk about the transistor and integrated circuit but i want to draw a contrast the way teams and collaboration happened by contrasting to very different approaches. in to work on the transistor on the one hand and then the integrated circuit. talk about shockley the and genius inventor. >> you all know about the ingenious so he is that bell

labs by far the best place for collaboration in the 30's and '40's then they have to figure out how to make the call and they need a solid state amplifier so shockley leads from bell labs i love that because it is great for collaboration as a quantum theorist the great physicist but the sharing of work space he knows how to take a piece of silicon to conduct a better or worse therefore with a

solid state amplifier that is those quantum theory from what is happening to those electrons from silicon. and then with the composer as they figure out ways to make the various materials they are using to make better semiconductors. they finally do it that shockley has been a bit hands off but mike said to grow he does not like to give credit.

he is furious when they put on the application for the patent and he insists he is and all the press releases and even insist that in the publicity photos he gets to be in that and just as he takes these photos for the publicity shot he sits down and grabs the microscope as if it is here is. and they said they hated the photograph from then on. he is such a pain to work with the only time they speak it is when the with the nobel prize and a meet in the hotel room. but shockley comes out.

and then nobody would come work with him but after a while they just cannot stand working for shockley. but those notebooks of the fairchild semiconductor because they decided how to run a company with of gloria paula deen way that shockley was doing it. it is the big room nobody has a corner office there is said desk in the center of the room with no hierarchy

and what they invent is the silicon valley culture non authoritarian on hierarchical. >> we had courted here for the 50th anniversary i love that speed maximum gas when it was like he said he was difficult to work for but he seemed to be a pretty good judge of talent. [laughter] probably the only egotistical saying that he said and probably did not mean it to be biwas right. it got the same laugh as tonight. so part of that there is that you talk about why is it in those that have that

ingredients with that ecosystem why does it succeeded some don't? >> oddly you have to move their right. that wasn't just that he was said jerk he kept insisting it would work and it didn't sometimes you just get it wrong. but with a the visionaries that is another thing sometimes you forget a business person could turn into real product. >> their realize it is cool but you need products to go with it but you remind us that transistor radio not only the implementation but it revolutionized america.

>> it makes the device personal but not do a the touring to create artificial intelligence. so you have these transistors they put them in hearing aids it is the important but limited market. radios are a shared a plans. that suddenly somebody makes personal. so take our sarah any big company to make the regencies transistor radio around 1957 that allows you to control the dial you could take it to the beach or wherever.

that same month old as presley put down his first album. i am convinced there is a symbiosis to invention and. rock music would have a hard time taking off if only the radio is in though living room that parents controlled the dial. [laughter] and transistor radios became a must have thing. i remember in the early '60s getting my transistor radio. and you could listen to any music he wanted especially when your parents did not like it even with the a mobile and oil industry grow up symbiotic flee. but more important, if you look at the trajectory of digital revolution, and to make our machine more personal spin at that

computer which is big and now you could put it on your lap to take the radio or the high tide and nobody knew that we needed 1,000 songs in our pocket intel steve jobs it did it. music is personal. >> host: the perfect segue of the pc and now we talk about the story that is wrapped up of bill gates and paul allen and steve but focus on gates and allen. you rightabout their relationship been very detailed and personal terms. i wondered when you started this book to have the intention to examine the relationship as part of the story? mimicry talked-about collaborative teams. often they have a colonel of

truth just like a lovely sort jobs and gates and allen's those who have worked together of a computer operating system. and i talked to bill gates from the beginning he said no make it about the pc and the internet for i interviewed him many times formally for the book but the really important thing is when the next version that comes along to take the big impersonal thing like a computer that up until then we feared would be orwellian

control by the government and the pentagon and big corporation and robert makes it something a hobbyist can do. with all due respect it is ringed you think. -- bernanke. if it did not have been the basic program so one of the things is that if you have a great product like the great if a tree falls in the forest to doesn't make us sound? the key data on the cover of popular electronics. so in december of that year going to the middle of harvard square because he

has convinced ball to drop out and come to cambridge. and he says it is happening without us parker he grabs a copy and then says it is happening without us. and then bill starts due rock. they blows of all the exams then sits there using the computer right next to him and their right basic code. but bill gates basically does not shaved at this point. they want to figure out what to do and they realize paul

allen will have to bring it to albuquerque the bill is in charge. they said we could have a version so he makes his voice deeper to say he is paul allen and he says bring it if you want to. so the ball flies to albuquerque then make a first of two really good deals. they sell it though we keep the rights to let. sound familiar? this is what they do with ibm. so with that standard that is the standard. >> pretend you are meet.

and when they are young boys really in the high school lab there are four of them per car to get a contrast that paul allen is convinced he could work on another member of the group but not bill gates and they did it halfway through and discover they can do read. in the'' is so interesting he says gates says it will be hard to deal with me unless i am in charge. and that is interesting.

[laughter] >> gant you can see that with steve jobs. you can see the visionaries. and what is was on the stage. and we talked about it to say steve jobs really did and likewise to start trading microsoft with more and more in charge. in you should read paul allen's book but bill gates was is pretty awesome.

as vr understood. in day seen to move contact me but then you should step back that is the way we have all been through things like that. >> some times there is tension but and very near the end their watches woz. we should the btu judgmental

especially when they create microsoft and apple. >> there is like six men stood - - $600,000. and i have one with woz signature is. >> he said in the biography did you want to eliminate? that even with the contribution but here is what i discovered when writing about steve jobs if

we take that great visionary and he is but what he did extraordinarily well even though a strong cup of tea at times, he develops an incredible set of themes. when he said the high tide. that it was very hard but to create a company is even harder. so lot of that original team. and then to say how hard it was when everyone would say

that is the quote that i had. i would not given up for anything in the world. then let's get the nazer bosses non dash nazer bosses. with the original macintosh over in the past decade is the incredible good team. so then i discovered besides being a visionary was also a team builder and probably does nine getting enough credit because if you look up collaboration on wikipedia you would not see

his picture. >> lest we give the impression you do a wonderful job to bring that story current with the on-line world what's in them whole mix to you deducing was emblematic of that? >> with that digital revolution was the creation to have wandered to a hero's to give credit more than take get.

so he creates a notion of the interactive computer display. and to be faster and interactive. and headed downstairs also. and then instantly to connect. with the intergalactic computer network then gets to the pentagon then you have these cool people. they'll work celebrity -- collaborative forever is needed. especially for those graduation's students then said i have a few packets to

do internet work. to put the tcp it together. what i did not notice is back in 1990 is that you cannot get on and as the normal person and you have to be in the university research flabby cannot just dial up from home but the personal computer the people that invented it they wanted day personal creativity tour -- speefifteen then in 1994 we could interconnect the personal computers and it starts with the on-line services.

and then to takeover americana on line that was a flailing company but then it needed debt team like a visionary to implement it. i cannot remember exactly maybe 93. and then fell is called the september problem. and then they would be 0k. but that aol with al gore allows internet to be opened then it delphi and aol are

the first to. because then suddenly we could have an open gate to go to the internet. but it is a really good thing to allow the internet to get back to the scene to become personal. to let the rest of us could use. >> with that cultural transition almost what we go through with all the turmoil in the united states and the complete upheaval of social norms and campus unrest that information would be free and it played into that.

>> can it have been right here. this is the epicenter. this is the g spot. [laughter] in the really begins in the '70s and all the way through. but then to put the passages on line and all the others as a community organizers to put it on a site said to be crab sourced by the people involved those with the defense industry.

with stuart grant every few years and the then it became at the ironic antiwar statement that we don't want the corporations to own our machines. then there is a cauldron that has one common flavor anti-authoritarian let's make the tools personal with the personal-computer rises with the on-line services as well that eventually though

world wide web. >> to use that this project aside? first of all, we have been working on it for a long time. how difficult was it? and how well informed deerfield? >> i have been gathering strength from their early 90's and then to say who owns the internet? that is probably not the best historical research but to no the archives here at stanford and i may not be the best journalists but i know how to mesh the two.

and i had the really good fortune in my life if i have been to cnn or time to say he does just fine. so i tried to put those to sings together. -- things together. . .