can't march behind that banner but i think that's the state of the world today and i think it's really strange way the world has become sharply more equal and sharply more unequal at the same time. >> there's a hopeful aspect to it. >> there is. >> on that hopeful note we will and is otherwise depressing program and thanks to john lanchester new york contributed author of the new book "how to speak money" with the money people say what it really means. we thank our audiences hear on radio television and internet bidder on to remind everyone in the books will be on sale in the library immediately following the program. we appreciate your letting john make his way to the book signing table as quickly as possible. i am michael lewis and now this meeting of the commonwealth club of california the place where you are in the know is adjourned. [applause]

anne sarah rubin appeared at the zoo so visible but is a natural tendency to discuss her book "through the heart of dixie." she stood and took questions from the book festival audience. it's just under 15 minutes. who would you offer. this afternoon we have anne sarah rubin with us and she is an associate professor of history and director for the center of digital history and education at the university of ireland baltimore company.

county, sorry baltimore country to receive 80 from princeton university and hay and ph.d. from the university of virginia. her study of the place of sherman's march in american culture and history entitled stuff for five was published in september 2014 by the university of north carolina press. the project also has the multimedia component which can be found at sherman's march.org. dr. rubin's first book a shattered nation they rise and fall of the confederacy, received the 2006 dave reno gave an from the organization of american historians were the most original book on the civil war era. she is also a co-author of the award-winning valley of the shadow, an interpretive history of the civil war and communities. she has published numerous as

they and journal articles as well. dr. rubin was the president of the society of civil war historians from 2012 to 2014 and as is a member of its advisory board. she is a member of the southern association of women historians of their executive committee and the maryland state archives legacy of slavery project advisory board. she is also on the editorial board of the civil war history. she is an oah distinguished lecture. her books, i want to plug this. her books will be available at at the parnassus contacted us and we hope you will pick one up and join us at the signing colonnade. i hope you will join me and welcome dr. anne sarah rubin. [applause] p thank you all very much for

coming. it's really nice to be in a city that sherman visited but did not destroy. [laughter] the last talk i gave was in atlanta and was a little stickier. in the summer of 1963, john lewis the recently elected chairman of the student nonviolent coordinating committee found himself writing the most important speech of his life. he would be speaking along with other civil rights leaders from the steps of the lincoln memorial as part of the march on washington for jobs and freedom. lewis wanted his speech to show the students frustration at the slow pace of change, to show anger even militancy and so we rode the tide will come when we will not confine or her marching to washington. we will mark to the heart of dixie the way sherman did. we shall pursue her own scorched-earth policy and

burning jim crow to the ground nonviolently. 99 years after it comes to sherman is 62,000 resentment towards the sea or the carolinas leaving devastation in their wake the power of and still resonates. 99 years later the image of the is still still angered a last-minute lewis was asked to remove that sentence among a few others that were deemed to in the tory from his speech. and he did do it making his changes in the shadow for speeches were going on. so sherman's march, the name conjures up a whole host of images and references myths and metaphors are americans. they think of clark gable and vivian lee silhouetted against the flames have gone with the

wind. they think of low chimneys standing sentinel all that remained of destroy plantations. we think of soldiers stealing hams. we think of soldiers stealing hams and silver, chickens and jewelry. we think of the phrase's war is hell and 40 acres of the mule and the birth of total war. i would argue and i do argue in my book that this is the most symbolically powerful aspect of the american civil war. it stands for devastation and destruction. it has come to dominate our cultural understanding of the war. is a metaphor for a retelling of war against civilians for the civil war in microcosm. sherman's march has been memorialized in fiction and fi film. it's been used to explain america's involvement in vietnam

and one man doomed to search for romance. it's been employed as a metaphor for the burned-out south bronx in the 1970s and the gerrymandering of electoral districts. dozens and dozens of historians have obviously written about various aspects of sherman's march. military aspects the strategic impact of the war had on civilians world of march played in spreading the news of emancipation. what was the march like for sherman's soldiers and so on and of course there are dozens and dozens of biographies of sherman himself. what i do in my book is take a different approach. rather than retail the entire story of the march what i do is explore the various ways americans have retold, remembered and reimagined sherman's march. the book title, the subtitle of sherman's march and american memory i've really come to think of this project over the years

of less about memory which seems to imply a lot of presumption of accuracy and correctness and more about stories and storytelling which is to say this is no book that debunks the myth that have grown up around sherman's march. rather it's about layering different kinds of stories in different myths together and trying to get a deeper meaning. why do people retell the stories that they did? so i want to start out just by giving you a little bit of background and setting the scene. it's the fall of 1864 late in the war. the confederates are losing ground all over. sherman's army has taken control of atlanta. if you can see on that map of atlanta on september 2, grant's army is in virginia.

they are stymied out of petersburg fighting out of trench warfare. very soon after he occupied atlanta sherman decided to evacuate the city's civilian population, wanted it to be a purely military base. wanted to deal with beatings his protecting civilians guarding against guerrillas and spies and there's some evidence that actually nashville and what nashville was like during the war helped influence his decision in this way. he was criticized harshly for this by the bayer of atlanta. sherman famously wrote that to the mayor that war is cruelty and you cannot define it. as a result about 1600 whites and unknown numbers of african-americans packed up what they had and left the city of atlantis on by rose and as you can see on this image some by train. his next phase was to march across georgia. 285 miles to savannah to make it

living off the land and destroying everything of the confederacy. so this is a broad schematic in its two phases. it's a risky to be cut off from his base. john bell had still had 40,000 confederate soldiers in northern alabama. they could certainly while they couldn't attach head-on they certainly could cause trouble for him. but he was finally given permission on, he was finally given permission and on novemb november 15 burned everything remaining of military value in the city of atlanta. the flames destroyed the entire business district of downtown atlanta and altogether about a third of the city. sherman's army was 62,000 men. 218 regiments, 52 of them

actually from sherman's home state of ohio. they moved in for parallel columns and what's important to understand about the fort collins has sherman's march cut a swath 50 miles wide. it's not a 50-mile wide strait. this is it's not 50 miles where everything is mowed down in its path. it's 50 miles from the furthest edge of one column to the very furthest edge of the other column. so the metaphor that i like to use rather than the lawnmower is more like stitches where you have the stitches and then you have spaces in between. i think it's important to understand that even in areas that sherman marched through there are spaces that remained relatively untouched. there is very little confederate opposition. they're about 8000 confederate calvery men under joseph

wheeler. there are some companies initially of georgia state militia but there is not a lot of real opposition to sherman. before setting out sherman tried to set some boundaries. his special field old -- orders ordered his men to quote forage literally on the country and to destroy mills, houses, cotton gins etc. but within limits. this is just an excerpt of a much longer document. these foraging parties were supposed to be regularized. they were supposed to be under official control. soldiers were not supposed to enter homes and at the soldiers came onto a piece of property and were left alone in the southern property was also supposed to be left alone. what i think is really interesting also is that sherman

ordered that when seizing livestock because we army needed to feed themselves, with winds seizing livestock his men are too discriminated sherman put it between the rich who are usually hostile and the poor and industrious usually neutral or friendly. i think this injects this really interesting dynamic on the march. as for african-americans sherman was willing to permit commanders to put able-bodied men who could be of service into a pioneer corps by the urge them to be mindful of their limited supplies and under no circumstances did sherman wants the army to become responsible for african-american women and children. now most of these rules obviously were more in the breach than in reality but the very existence i argue gave sherman and his men a degree of what i call moral cover. there's a certain elasticity to

it that allows for harsher treatment of people in some places and more leniency and others. as i said, the men move out of atlanta on november 15 and 16. sherman initially traveled with the left-wing left-wing of the army. there's a famous -- sherman actually describes in his memoirs of turning back and looking at it the strains of john brown's body playing in the background. ..

>> >> we had one day old campaign. spilled their sorghum took their cotton and tin. they're all kinds of stories of men and their confederate money in one of my favorite lamentable legislative session but then they ransacked the state libraries.

they stole food they stole valuables. the forgers not under their control but then between african-americans and germans meant -- sherman and his men but he did not want to me that liberator. that he did not want that kind of responsibility. that being said as many as 25,000 african-americans followed sherman. >> back and they were sexually assaulted cabins are often destroyed and ransacked.

, they were not particular about whose food it was. but sherman and his men firing at the city suspended by the confederates. with the communications with washington so nobody really knew where he was one that was happening. lynn several southerner's decided to surrender. and on november 22nd he

presented in this city of savannah was 150 heavy guns and plenty of ammunition. with the men spent the month of january in savannah and then started to march through south carolina. it is rare that union veterans would vent their anger. much cooler than in georgia and i think it is disingenuous. somehow our men got the idea that south carolina was the cause of all of our trouble. but they ran a great hurry to precipitate the country's

civil war and then with us courage of war. we would no longer be able to restrain our men and i would not restrain the army. there is a real sense that the men it took the gloves off and most of the damage done in georgia was confined to this smokehouses are the chicken coops. but the private homes are really targeted in south carolina. one said the men burned everything they could in south carolina. they had headed for south carolina and took it out of them.

february 16, 1865, that night that is columbia burning. it is a matter to the discussion like columbia burned and who set the fire. they blame sherman and his soldiers but repeatedly they saw that the retreating confederate would start to torch but my opinion it is all of them. the confederates lit fires son and his men let fires nobody put the things out. the army then moves into north carolina. but by march 15th they

were across the cape fear river but at this point sherman has to votes but now to meet up with grant. and over the course of the march on march 16 on march 19 and 20. they slow the progress that they stop it. but on april 17 but then they begin negotiations. with that civil war

challenger you know, that on april 17 not only does lee's army surrender but abraham lincoln is dead. and sherman finds out just as these negotiations are about to start. and he said to keep the news from his men because you're worried about what they will do. sherman wanted a soft peace like a general amnesty. there is a lot of back-and-forth. and under terms identical and the march is over for all intents and purposes. then continuing up through virginia and men goes through the end of may in

washington d.c.. i'm not really retelling of the story of the march but i just retold the story but now i want to switch gears to talk about the kinds of stories i tell in my book and the arguments that i make my book. to give the flavor of what the book is like it is pretty easy to find stories of devastation and one of the most quoted instances comes from a diary from a soldier who was outside of covington georgia. she said to be prepared for the arrival of your marchers. the following day she sprang into action.

she buried salt in the garden. elias first union soldiers approach and the with fame and protection but to her dismay one of the famous passages. my yards were froze to my smokehouse to mayberry my pantry my kitchen and my cellar. blazing rocks would ever was in their way. the 1,000 pounds of meat in my smokehouse is on my flour and butter and eggs vinegar and brine.

and then they were hunted and that remaining livestock money and clothing belonging to varian the slaves were taken even her coffeepot her of vince and skillets. what is interesting is this is all happening even though the house is nominally guarded in a bizarre coincidence that happens so often in the civil war that they actually knew her brother who lived in chicago. because the soldiers torched her cotton as they left but it did not go up in flames.

the following morning she fixed breakfast using their coffee rations because the coffeepots were stolen. the ledger pour by $30,000 with a much stronger rubble but even then managing to hide provisions that they did not take like potatoes and flour all little meet sarah panic cows wandered home the next few days and she even happened upon what was still in edible carcass of one of the hogs left behind in her family's graveyard. i love this story because the complexity of interactions she is guarded sort of she has some provisions.

but what is also interesting to note this is why sherman and his men are marching through georgia they have been relatively untouched up to that point. that is when they're there for to support their own army so that they cannot be sent up to virginia. that interaction between southern whites and the marchers often involved small kindnesses and there are so many stories to explain why certain homes or places were saved. so they put a masonic apron on the door. because somebody yelled out

smallpox a.m. the soldiers stayed away. but to show part of the reason because a lot of places were scared. now for there part they would rarely stressed their role as destroyers of the river march. sometimes it diaries, almost no postwar memoirs they remember it as a pleasant almost fun interlude they would call a picnic and it would make sense their only marching 10 miles a day which is half of what they were normally expected to march. they had so much to each. end if you are a veteran and

then to have my first drink of milk and then from the 103rd illinois the subsequent diary talks about the unusual wide variety affair available to soldiers and on one notable location a tossup. when they describe their interaction they very often seemed to emphasize the positive. nothing encapsulates this a better than the political cartoonist. and is just such an idealized vision of what the interactions were like. what a pretty baby you have you nice southern lady and

what a cute dog. to let the reality is very different. here's how a couple of union soldiers were called. a member of the 21st of wisconsin he and his fellow soldiers came across a young southern couple and the husband was home on furlough and was wounded at petersburg. and to show you there respective that soldier i would say nothing was disturbed around his little home even if chickens -- his chickens were left untouched. but then to supplement what they had. but they cooked a large meal at union request and they had a very enjoyable dinner

together then a young couple came a much better idea. you just wonder what they thought. you never get the other side of the story. a similar tale comes from belknap who made smi professional career of having been on sherman's march. so i think south carolina and north carolina him and his men came upon a woman about to give birth. they helped to care for her and tell her son was born. the next morning of veteran was softly singing a lullaby that then with the canteen

they took the family carriage letter with corn in chickens and other things necessary for the conduct of the army. so probably the mother read named him as i would have imagined but it is still confusing that belknap and his men take the time to make sure this baby is born safely but then leave the mother destitute and starving by taking all of her provisions. so it is that complexity. the same kinds of kindness appear in interactions between union soldiers and african-americans. i could give an entire talk about the complexities and the coolest example of this difficult relationship as a group of african-americans

following sherman's men. and insubordinate commander his name with jefferson davis, no relation order them to be pulled up so that the african-americans could not so then there chased by the calvary. so hundreds of them drowned in the swamp and others are recaptured. is a horrible incident. the story that i want to do tell comes out of the narrative from a man named moss who tells a fascinating story. he lived on a plantation 16 miles from sanders will georgia.

and one of these mergers and then but then they came back touse deal everything they could get their hands on. but claiborne mons who was a child at the time was speeding office there's -- reading officers one night but then they took every horse and mule that we had. and it also took. we'll know if his uncle's name was been or not.

but what we do know is that they got in a fight to give five sacks of silverware. the boss to call the silver away from him and though gold then did not know what to do with that. to take on my master's and came back how he wanted to. but the yankees steals from the planters and indeed to his former slave and then his former master steals them. but it is a jumble of human relationships that i find so fascinating and difficult

obviously i could go on and on it is full of stories and looks at the march through music and poetry and literature and i have a long section where i explore him as a war criminal process that companion that i have worked on for several years i have done in conjunction with the professor of visual arts and what we have done is create different maps and documentary's that tell the stories of the march from a variety of perspectives. it is still under construction may add more every week and we will be completely finished by november 16 which of course, is the anniversary

of the march and then from november 15th through the end of may there is a day by day block so each day you can see somebody's account for their stories of sherman's march. thank you very much for coming. [applause] >> if you have questions please go to one of the microphones so that you can be heard. >>. >> the famous and there is dead is the african-american history is i used about 70

of the wpa narratives. that is problematic the other big issue is often times the interviewers so that dynamic with that incredibly rich source a woman named carol is working right now on the book that will tell the story of the silver war -- civil war from

the perspective. >> with the food and the animals i would assume they have more precaution with that military confederate warning because all of the so-called leaders how to account for that? >> that is a great question. everybody has a couple of days' notice that they can see the flames on the horizon but it is test that this is november, december even in the springtime in the carolinas people have a

lot in their smokehouses and it is hard to hide that they tried to bury things but the men were literally stabbing into the ground with their bayonets to find valuables or foods. or if they with the recent break they would question of families and digging up the way you also have are two kinds of african americans but there are two kinds of stories. one who doesn't have sherman's men. but then immediately when

sherman's men come on to the plantation and by the way so it is a complicated dynamic. so then it who happens to invade your farm or plantation? some would leave some food behind someone in some would destroy what they could not carry and then trying to dig the salt out of their smokehouse birthday union armies would try to pick it up from the ground. >> but the confederate army

certainly was not starving to death but sherman destroy is the food but it wasn't? >> part of the reason there is a lot of food and supplies last the past to do with the fact the governor fourth carolina and georgia did not like jefferson davis and did not get along with him as much as possible with held supplies from though larger confederate commissary. arguably they wanted this applies to only go to the georgian troops or north carolina troops so that is part of the reason. sova sherman had severed that from georgia up to petersburg or virginia so

yes definitely. >> so what extent was his campaign necessary to win the war? was that more psychological reign of terror? >> that is a great question. i started this project a long time ago that it did not play that big of a rule to me that symbolic but the more that i steadied it it was important in the material they with food and supplies that it did not entirely succeed. . .

and oftentimes the anger that white southerners felt after reconstruction gets wrapped up and completed with sherman's march as well. >> if i can build on that for just a moment, one of the things i remember you mentioning in the book is that if sherman's piece

had been accepted in washington, his conditions for peace, the aftermath of the war might have been very different. do you think he could have countered that anger and that resentment with his terms? >> yeah. i don't actually think so. i mean he certainly had wanted a very generous peace. he wanted general amnesty. he believed that those terms came out of the conversation that he personally had with lincoln and grant in march. it's so hard to play with these kinds of counterfactual is. the bigger determining factor in reconstruction if there is one moment where maybe reconstruction would have been different would have been if lincoln had not been assassinated.

not that i thought his terms for reconstruction would have been profoundly different from andrew johnson's but i think that lincoln had the moral capital to sell those terms in ways that andrew johnson couldn't. no offense. of course i am in tennessee but i think andrew johnson was not really well-equipped for the job that he had to have and had to do. >> one of the other things you talk about in your book is a continuing legacy. would you mind touching on that for just a moment? >> sure. the continuing legacy of sherman's march is that will particularly popular.

i talk a lot about "gone with the wind." i think you see it a lot. actually several years i put a google alert on for sherman's march is so everyday i get a little thing. the way they sherman's march is used in kind of popular discourse about the wars in iraq and afghanistan i think is interesting and telling and perhaps not so predictive but it is still used as a metaphor when it comes up. >> one of the things i thought was very interesting and kept thinking as i was reading the book was going back to that quotation you have from that woman about how total war basically made her more of a

rebel. we don't seem to have learned from that. >> nell. no we really happened. the other thing i would say is that the sherman's march version of total war is a very very different kind of total war than we see in the 20th and 21st century. a lot of what i do also is try to unpack the notion that we can draw this kind of straight line from sherman after world war ii and the vietnam war that the rules that guided sherman and his men were very different from the kinds of war that we fight today unfortunately. >> if there are no more questions i want to thank dr. rubin again. [applause] and i want to remind you again that the books are available at the parnassus book tend and also remind you that the southern feal