joining isis, how many of them have criminal activities and criminal records in the past. so that there's a convergence of these two phenomena, which is very much a change in the nature of the state where transnational crime groups are based, and what is the state capacity that milan was talking, because of corruption to deal with these organizations. >> think you. >> -- thank you. >> thank you for the picture that you drew on the business of terrorism. i would just like to address the matter of foreign fighters that's working today with isis, of course. they seem to not really fall under any category, i they're not motivated, they're not living under crop governments,

et cetera. i really have, my question basically is, and some of you have criminal record. my question is, what really motivates those people? is it always ideology in terms of globalization? isn't always ideology or do something else ask thank you. >> i think it's a very complex issue, and it deserves much more study. but part of it is that many of the youth, as i mentioned, some of them who are living in western europe, our youth who find themselves because some of them are children of immigrants, to be used without future. that they don't find themselves having the same opportunities -- opportunity structures as people who are not from non-immigrant families, and this is a enormous source of frustration for the. but as the article in "the new york times" was talking to today on tunisia, tunisia still, like

many societies in north africa, has enormous problems of corruption, and that is galvanizing youth who are seeing through propaganda that this islamic state of isis is supposed to be less corrupt. and there's also some of the same element of what has galvanized youth engagement with terrorism before, is that they are seeking to resolve some inadequacies that they've had in their personal lives, and this is what some of this extremely successful recruitment is based on. is to fulfill some in internal needs, and that's what i talk about this, about marketing, but you're not just couldn't anybody to do this kind of video and recruitment but individuals who know how to do this sort of psychological outreach.

[inaudible] >> i do like to come back to the definition -- definitely issue ncp that you have something better than the standard one. but i'm interested in whether in your research as you see these issues play out you think there are some ideal types of corruption, syndromes of corruption, michael johnston talks about the difference between the way they play out in an authoritarian society versus one in which there's tribal or pluralistic competition, and then you mentioned the democratic financial systems. whether it's important that we identify very different types in order to get at what the causal structure would be in the solutions, but may work in one

type may not work so well in another type. >> i think that's very important but i think that all corruption is not the same, but i think one of the very serious mistakes that we made in going into, in afghanistan, was to proceed that corruption is normal in a society, and that people will then be tolerant of high levels of corruption in government administration. and i think that is an ignorance of how corruption operates. that there are as you say in some societies tribal traditions of exchange relationships that we may perceive as corrupt and may not be corrupt. but in many parts of the world citizens proceed what is an excessive level of corruption, and there's some quotes that i use in my book from leading

pakistan and afghan thinkers talking about the excessive level of corruption that we did not understand that turned americans policies into failures because of our failure to understand repulsion against corruption. >> hub which you define corruption so it captures all of it more the nuances? >> i mean, i think that there is, there's really no one way, right? i think, i mean, the way others have thought about it is thinking about magnitude of costs versus, you know, magnitude of cost versus magnitude of risk, or looking at whether or not it's involving political actors or some people

outside, the one point in your book is we've all too often on a definition which thinks that people which are only inside the state system as opposed to private actions. and also there is this interesting disjuncture between criminality in some cases. so criminals who are operating in many political systems aren't necessarily corrupt in the narrow sense, although they thrive on the corruption which is going on in their political system. i haven't come up with a silver bullet. i don't know if you a better definition but i sort of think one almost has to take an ad hoc approach and it's very hard to find a universal answer. >> and one of the friends that is making things more complicated is that we used to think that corrupt organizations and individuals will essentially influence government officials and takeover agencies or bureaucratic structures, and essentially either force them or

induce them through incentives to behave in a corrupt way. but what we're seeing in some places in the world today is the arrow is moving in the upper direction, as governments are taking over criminal organizations, not to destroy them but to run them. and with that we have the emergence of what i've called elsewhere in the paper, mafia states, and that is governments that are in essence criminal organizations. there's not that they've been taken over or influenced by criminal organizations, but they themselves in the nature have criminal activities as part of the fundamental part of their ways of working. so if you add that to the next, a definition of corruption that gives even more entangled in a very dirty way. yes, please.

>> i'm wondering if there are any significant differences between you might find between different types of corruption in terms of grass and taking opportunities to make a profit sounds like the situation was, compared to what merery, very different, taking money from criminals in order to facilitatfacilitat e their colonel activities, and then some variations between where people are taking money under coercion of threat of something might happen to the families that they perform an act in collusion with criminals, not necessary because they wanted to. >> i think all of these problems that you identified are things that i site and give examples of. there's just such enormous diversity to this, but i think

it's things and variations, but the consequence of all of these are both and undermining of civil life and and undermining of the capacity society. because money is diverted from education. it is different from investment, and as we're having an increasing youthful population in the world, there are not the resources to educate them, to provide them opportunities. and all of these things work in conjunction with each other. >> we have been discussing a book called "dirty entanglements: corruption, crime, and terrorism" by louise shelley. thank you very much, and thank you very much for the third interesting conversation. and thank you all for coming. [applause] [inaudible