inclusion mr. chairman it stands at a crossroad. . .

has enough been allocated to make it happen sooner rather than late center operationally, is the emphasis on national governments or state governments or both and local? if you find a national government is unwilling to be as transparent as we want them to be, do we look to bypass and go to a state? obviously in the u.s. it's the states and local government that carry the heavy burden of providing electricity. is that model being replicated in africa? in terms of the electrification, obviously we have state-of-the-art election the fix indication here and i have visited virtually every electricity plant in my state over the yeares -- most but not all -- they obviously have many

environmental safeguards, scrubbers to make sure what comes another the chimney does not lead to temperatures as healthwise because of pollution. are those kinds of environmental sustainable best practices being incorporated in what we do? seems to me there's so much on the shelf capability and knowledge that it would be a shame if that was lost. if you could spend a moment on that as well. how are and where are the african power leaders especially the equivalent throw nco corps, the people that run the generators. where do they'd get their education? are they partner are with electricity companies here or is it something that they're picking up in college, junior college? who is trained those who will run the plants so they will be run safely and effectively, and finally to be oned the grid initiative under power africa is intended to facilitate investment in small-scale energy solutions, do you think such

projects do more african entrepreneurs to take a greater interest in creating means of supplying energy to underprovided areas in africa. if you would speak to that i appreciate it. >> thank you for your question. mr. chairman, and thank you for your leadership on this entire topic, and introducing the legislation. so, each country is in a different place but we have seen a number of countries really focus on increasing electrification, and you see this, for example, as witnessed in the ncc compacts in tan tanzania and ghana. and they realize lack of electricity i holding them back. there are a lot of countries realizing how important this is to their growth to their healthcare system to their education system, and are

locking to really do a lot more in this area. there are gaps and that's part of the concept behind power africa, is to identify what the gaps are and work with the government and private sector investors to try to solve them. we have seen cases where private sector investors from the united states and elsewhere have tried to do deals and then run into a load block. that's where the transaction advisers step in and say, how do we solve senate. >> on the gap issue, is that something you could summarize and provide to the subcommittee so we get a sense of what you're truly encountering? >> yes, we can. >> then we can try to be helpful with the governments. >> we can do that. in terms of local and national governance, obviously there are often national policies that set the energy policy for an entire country, but there are a number of local aspects that also come into play, and we work with all

of them in the same roadblock approach to figure out what are the challenges and how do we deal with that? the question of environmental and social safeguards is very important and you're absolutely right. we don't need to reinvent the wheel. we need to make sure that we use state-of-the-art and so all the projects, for instance -- if there's a component that involves the development banks, each bank has their own policy for checking these things and working with the governments and making sure that the project fits those standards and don't introduce some really poor practices. in terms of the education and training, there are local institutions that offer in some countries training, in other cases people have education from the united states or europe, but it is an area where there are shortfalls. actually a long-standing

partnership that usaid funchess involves a another of u.s. utilities and another one involving u.s. regulators and they work in combination with people in the individual countries for this very reason so they can have very technical interaction from one utility technical person to another, and to try to increase that skill level, because there are definitely gaps, and we need to keep working on that. >> if i could, those tack tuck cal people come here to learn or do our people get deploy thread? >> both. depending on the circumstances. >> how large of an operation is that? >> it's a modest sized, very economical system where each year we get requests from different country and it's restricted to africa but africa is a big participant. and we match them up with different utilities. don't off the top-my head but probably a utility in new jersey or california or whatever, but

they match up -- match them up with utilities that have the expertise they need. so, then they have these exchanges and interactions. >> for the record could you provide the committee a sense of what that is? >> i can. and then lastly, before i turn to my colleague, absolutely beyond the grid, we -- having local organizations and entrepreneurs seeing the business opportunities is part of the objective, and that's sometimes where the -- some of the credit guarantees usaid or others can help them deal with the risk and introduce them to interesting business opportunities where they know very well because of these remote areas they might know better than a large company. i'm sure my colleagues have things to add on some of these points. >> chairman smith, would add a couple of points of i may.

first of all, we all, i think, acknowledge the difficulty of providing broad answers because of the very great diversity of the different circumstances in different african countries and indeed rural versus urban settings, but within that -- with that danger, i'll attempt to respond. in regard to the question about cutting edge development of the power systems, the grid centralized systems, one of the areas we felt is very, very important and that a number of our agencies have work on from different vantage points, disperspectives of our missions, is the business of utilization of associated gas from oil

development projects. the historical experience of the flaring of natural gas is understandable when infrastructure is lacking, but when infrastructure manages to be lacking then for protracted periods of time into decade, that's really a critical lost opportunity. so one of the things hey with been focusing on in our policy dialogues with african countries and one thing we're focusing on at the level of identification of mutual interests between u.s. companies and opportunities in certain african countries is this area of gas capture for power generation. together with the trade and development agency this summer, the department of energy organized a reverse trade mission that took leaders from a couple different african countries to the houston, texas, area, for a series of meetings

with companies involved in gas development. so we think there's an area for potential opportunity there. in regard to the beyond the grid initiative, and some of the potential for growth with african entrepreneurs, from the depth of energy perspective, one aspect we have been focusing on is the importance of proper performance of products in the marketplace. so, it is, of course, easy to spoil the market when you have substandard products, be they for offgrid or for solar lanterns, another area where department of energy has worked, and so we are working with our colleagues at aid in particular to look at this question of how to make sure that offgrid

lighting systems and solar systems and hybrid systems that are a mix of renewables and either diesel or natural gas, these are -- they actually perform in way that is advertised, so that then you see a healthy development of that entrepreneurial opportunity going forward. lastly, on the issue of the training, i would say from our perspective, this is an area that is both of huge interest to u.s. companies, but it's also in terms of gaps, lots of, shall we say, head room-opportunity for growth. i'm sure that members of the committee have had the experience, as i and my colleagues have, for example, as a comparison, of traveling throughout the gulf region, and when one is in the kingdom of saudi arabia or unite arab

emirates or kuwait or many other countries where there have been historical very long-lasting education and training and company relationships, what that translates into is not only high quality energy development, it also translates into huge opportunity for u.s. companies, because in many cases, our counterparts are familiar with u.s. standards, u.s. approaches, u.s. vendors. so, huge opportunity for growth there in anar that doe is looking to try to develop some ideas on. thank you. >> may i make a few points? >> yes. >> five points i'll chime in here on that relate to the gaps and challenges. the first is in a sense i think a common problem in the -- throughout the subconstant innocent is related to the financial position of the utilities. so, since one of the challenges

is how to strengthen the regulatory environment, the pricing environment, and move toward more commercial utilities? because then the investors will then know they have a credible offtaker for the power that they're generating. clearly we have done a lot of work to power africa on power purchase agreements, developing standardized approaches, opec has been very active in this area, and that's very important. at the same time, though, you need to have solvent viable energy system in order to have a long-term investment that is necessary to develop the sector. second is i think mr. ichord roz 's -- you have different ministrieses, like in nigeria, and you have to work to help them be a catalyst for them, at least to try to do better planning so you can ensure that

the oil and gas that is being developed in the country is going to be available to meet the needs of the country. ghana is a very interesting example where they want to develop a lot of capacity and yet the oil and gas development has been slow in coming. the point about urban and subnational is a very important point in africa and other regions. the urbanization process is creating centers of buildings and industry, and the mayors and the subnational leaders of those entities are becoming more and more important as this process goes, and as you know, we have not talked about urbanizeddation but it's still at embryonic stage at subsaharan africa, and by 2030 only going to have 54% urban. so there's a lot -- but it's

rapidly growing, and that -- working with the cities and the urban areas is a very important area, particularly in areas like energy efficiency. fourth area is the entrepreneurial development and local institutions. here i think in many cases it's very important to work with the local business community, which we are, and also to focus on how can we develop more capacity and recep different in the local -- receptivity in the local banking system so they can helped for some of the projects, so it isn't just dependent on international capital coming in, because you know that much of the international capital, particularly private and venture capital, sees huge risk and very risk avers in terms of coming into these areas. so the local banking sector becomes very important. and we have seen in nigeria and other countries the local banking system can, if developed, play a key role.

and then finally issue would say that there are a lot of actors playing in this field. i think it's very important, and we are, of course, working very closely with the world back and african development bank and other donors to try to have a coordinated approach that addresses the range of gaps, institutionally and otherwise, and that we're trying to leverage our money effectively in that process. >> thank you very much. miss bass. >> again, thank you all for your testimony. as i said in my opening statement, i'm a big supporter of power africa, but i want to raise a few issues that are raised by others with concern about power africa and the implementation. so, i believe, mr. elkin you were mentioning african entrepreneurs. so i wanted to know to the extent that the african diaspora

here in the united states was getting involved or what type of outreach are are you doing? so, a couple questions. the african diaspora specifically and also just small businesses. i constantly encounter small business people who want to figure out how to be connected and just can't quite make the connection. you mentioned the reverse trade mission and you mentioned to houston. there are any others planned? of course i'm going to make a pitch for southern california because it seems like reverse trade missions don't quite make it to the west, or maybe i'm just not aware of them. so that another issue. and then i want to ask you about the development of the infrastructure on the continent. why don't i start with those couple questions. >> thank you for your questions. i'll start about i'm sure my colleague will add in. we agree that we need to not

only start but continue with a lot of outreach to reach all different sectored of interested people. small u.s. businesses, diaspora, large u.s. businesses, and so forth. so, we are -- we're making progress but a we have more to do. there are some cases already where there have been deas suprainterest. i -- diaspora interest. i understand there's for instance in ethopian american business that is going to be manufacturing smart meters for ethiopia's electricity company, and i hope there will be additional successes in the days ahead, and as you elude -- allude to, many members of the diaspora know very well the business opportunities and they have through the own hard work accumulated capital, and so their ideally suited to participate in different aspects of this. and in terms of being connected,

we have created a one-stop-shop on the usaid web site. there's a pain but in -- there's page but somebody can send an e-mail, power africa@usaid.gov and we use that one-stop-shop to reach out to all intent involved, and make the connections because we don't have -- we have the view that people shouldn't have to hunt all over the u.s. government to figure out who to talk to. so that why we created this one-stop-shop. we'll direct them and save them the trouble. shouldn't be that difficult for american taxpayers. >> i really would like to help you with that as well. so maybe reaching out to members of congress others might want to be involved. african diaspora as well as african-american die as practice who are -- diaspora who are very about in participating. >> thank you, we'll take you up on that. >> please do. another issue that has come up -- came up actually when the

bill was being heard here in committee, and that is to the extent that, as we are in power africa, developing -- supporting the development of the infrastructure on the continent to what extent is it getting into communities? so there's some concern from some people that most of the infrastructure is going to be built in cities to help businesses, which is wonderful, but considering that people in the rural areas or even right in the city, in neighborhoods, do not have electricity, what always horrified me was the idea of women giving child birth using the light on their cell phone to deliver a baby. so, i'm wondering about that. >> let me start. i clearly -- the issues related to me models for rural

electrification is changing a lot. it's really a revolution that is occurring in which the drop in prices for solar systems, the advances in telecommunications and cell phones, i just came back from bangladesh. some of the models and commercial approaches being taken i think are going to be extremely important for africa, because you have such one large rural population without access, you have small relatively small loads, the economics of extending the grid by utilities that don't have the money to do it, or don't necessarily have the same kind of commitment to extend the systems because in many cases they're struggling to just meet urban requirements. >> in urban issue was referring to in neighborhoods.

urban communities. >> i think the issues related to decentralized approaches do -- are relevant to some of the urban areas as well as the rural areas and i think it was also your question about the entrepreneurial opportunities to work with u.s. companies who are at the leading edge of these technologies. we're working with a california company that has developed a nano grid approach in bang la -- and that's the -- bangladesh and that's the kind of innovation i see going on in the u.s. -- witch the u.s. companies that we can begin to try to focus on, to take a closer look at africa and the market opportunities there. >> so you're telling me it's a part of the initiative. >> well, think that what i say we're excited about "beyond the grid" because in a sense we're in the early stages, but a lot of companies have come up and expressed interest in involvement, and i think that if

we get the right strategies we can indeed help accelerate the commercialization of these kinds of options for the -- for africa. >> maybe you can in another point give me the name of the company in california. >> sure. >> a couple of other areas. another area of concern that gets raised a lot is to what extent is power africa looking at renewable's? that's always a controversial issue, whether power africa is just going to focus on fossil fuels. so what extent, from anybody. then i have one final question after that. >> ranking member bass, thank you for those questions. just to respond to a couple of the ones you have posed, first of all in relation to reverse trade missions we'd be happy to talk with our colleagues at the trade and development agency

that are -- that lead into organization of them. our agency and others from across the u.s. government typically provide technical depth and some of the companies can help them make the most effective, but i'll be happy to take away your interest in knowing what more do they have planned over the -- >> good. tell them to come to los angeles, then, huh? >> beg pardon. >> tell them to come to los angeles? >> i'm told that -- >> i'm just kidding. >> in fact there's a tda representative in los angeles. that is working on an effort called "making global local" to get reverse trade missions to cities across the united states. so, some of that may in fact be happening and we'll -- >> i'm sorry. tell me the name. >> "making global local." so, indeed, some of this may be happening we'll get the details back to you for the record.

concerning the role of renewables in power africa, the approach we as an administration are taking is very nonspecific as to technologies. it is -- there are going to be different answers that work in different contexts. "beyond the grid" is all about figuring out where there are opportunities, be it for renewable systems with storage, hybrid systems that involve a mix of renewables and fossil fuel generating capacity for when there is not wind or sunlight. this is one of the things where -- one of the areas where the department of energy is able to make a specific contribution to power africa's capability by providing some of the expertise of our laboratories in these

arenas. already i think it is worth calling out that the pledges of -- from private sector partners to the "beyond the grid" initiative are considerable. it's more than a billion dollars over the coming five years. so, while we don't have today specific long lists of things of that have gotten done, we think the is a very promising area for the growth of pour -- power africa and an area where there will be a lot of relevance. last comment, by the way, it is not just the village setting in rural africa where offgrid and microgrid systems are relevant, and that is equally true in remote settings in the united states, alaska, for example, and even in very nonrural settings such as the microgrids, she

separable grid systems in urbanized part of tu the country where in times of grid instability -- another commonality with the african grid systems -- you can island off a particular part of the grid in order to protect critical loads, hospitals, transport systems, et cetera. >> thank you. and then -- i'm sorry. go ahead. >> if i might, the -- obviously we know that africa is blessed with world class renewable energy resources, the u.s. is a member of the international energy agency and what the arena has been doing is try to develop more extensive maps of the resource -- renewable resource potential throughout africa. this is clearly showing in a sense there's a range of resources, whether it's

geothermal in ethiopia, wind in kenya or of course hydroresources are still very important for the continent, and in some cases even solar power for larger grid connected applications. i was struck at the africa ministerial about how consistent the ministers were in stressing the important role that they saw renewables play in a diversified energy mix. so i think many countries have moved to develop the incentive frameworks for interconnection of renewable energy. i think in some cases it clearly -- they are looking at a mix of both renewabled and natural gas to have a cleaner fuels system, and i think that varies widely depending on whether you're talking about north or south or central.

>> thank you. is it el kind. >> it's el kind but i'll answer to anything including hey you, just don't call late for dinner. okay. you said you went to a meeting with 500 participants. where was that? >> thank you for the question. this was the u.s. africa energy ministerial which took place in early june in eat bogey ya. it was hosted by the government over ethiopia, co-chaired by the secretary of energy, -- moniz, and -- dr. moniz, and the ethopian minister of energy and water. >> then, mr. postel -- close enough -- you said that nigeria had privatized five generations

companies and ten distribution companies. is that correct? >> correct. >> how long ago was that? >> over the course of the last 12 months. >> the last 12 months. so the government itself had been run under generation and distribution facilities? >> yes, they had. >> what percentage does that equate to in nigeria? when is that half of the facilities, a third? >> i can give you the precise answer. off the top my head i believe it was at least half, if not a bit more. >> so in 12 months has than been a viable function, are they functioning properly without -- with little -- i own a business so it's impossible to do it without any problems, so he is grinning like a possum eating yellow jackets. what does mat mean? are they operating without problems? >> my colleague, dr.eye cord,

has more recent information. my understanding each company is in a different situation. some operating well, some a few hiccups but i characterize them as growing pains, but in general a lot of the operations went forward. >> okay. by the way, do want to add for our ranking member that texas has its own grid. so you come to texas, 85% of the state is covered by our own grid. if you want to know how to get the grid in africa, come see us. next question. you're stuck on the possum eating the yellow jackets. mr. postal. from my notes about you, you said you developed a plan to -- securitizeddation of future receivable without a corporate guarantee. >> yes, sir. >> explain that. >> this was a financing for the

government of jamaica in 1988. it was the first new funding they had obtained from the private sector in something like 13 years because there had been rescheduling, and basically every year they were receiving payments from at&t for telephone calls that the deas suprawas making to jamaica, and be felt that was predictable enough to give them the money up front in essence, and so we raised money in japan and we did that financing. it was all repaid. >> can you do the same thing with electrification in africa? >> i have to think about that. >> that's what thought it was. now, you also -- is it ichord? you said in your remarks, governance and transparent were key security concerns, protection of the people and the environment from sector impacts.

should be -- i think i was writing fast good furiously. that a bad tumor now, isn't it? i was writing quickly. what does that mean? sector impacts? >> i think obviously, as we know from our experience here, the environmental impact of offshore and upstream oil and gas is very important area to develop the capacity of these countries, and that really -- it was in that context, maybe the sector impacts is a little too vague, but that is what we were talking about, increasing the capacities in the environment management area. >> that's what was wondering. then you said something about eiga distractible -- >> it's an international initiative, the extractive industry. the u.s. is participating. the interior department and the u.s. has the lead on it, and it is basically to enhance

accountability in terms of this important sector and the revenues and -- >> okay. that's going to be important. you said also that -- i don't remember if you said africa or -- i think friday had expansive renewable resources and emerging oil and gas market. i guess resources. quantify that for us, personal-wise. percentage-wise, 50/50, 60/40? >> i think that clearly there are a dozen or more countries for oil and gas developing. some or more developed, like angola and nigeria. others where exploration is just beginning and in the early statements. i think it's a little bit too early to say exactly what that

mix will be. you have certainly countries like tanzania and mow sam beep beak where you -- mozambique where you have world scale gas resources developing and that will open up lots of opportunities for them to have a significant gas role in their economies. at the same time, for the electric power sector, the economics of many of these renewable energy resources look very attractive. especially compared to oil, which many of the countries are still having to use oil to generate and have the cost of 30-cents a kilowatt hour for power, like in ghana, which has to use oil because they're not able to get gas from nigeria in the pipeline. >> i along at a ma of africa, doing a such for pipeline infrastructure, and looks like limited pipeline infrastructure is primary my in the north. i don't know if you're familiar

with that map. >> you have the west africa pipeline. and that is -- >> runs from algeria to nye year gentleman. >> that's right. the problem is nigeria has a severe gas shortage because of the internal policies haven't given the incentives for the development of their gas resources and therefore countries like began in -- ghana and others have not been able to get the gas supplies through the pipeline. >> there is a robust -- in the pipeline industry and/ore association in africa that is pushing for the installation of pipelines and do we have property rights and how does that play if there is? >> thank you, congressman weber. there is, i think a natural, unavoidable tension, that will have to play out here, and that frankly was one of the really core elements of our discussion in june at the ministerial meeting i just referred to in response to your question.

and that is, as one sees development of the oil and gas resources, particularly in the frontier provinces, each africa in particular -- east africa in particular, how much is sponsor domestic consumption versus export. the international oil companies want to meet demand in the countries where they operate because that's then -- that has a multiplier effect that is very, very beneficial for many of those companies, but they also need predictability in terms of arrangements. so, to your question, is there a robust existing vision, i would say, no. there is a great deal of interest and some fairly elaborate, fairly ambitious ideas, goals in terms of development of east african gas

pipelines. for example, to take gas to power generation in south africa, from mozambique, as one big example. but the open issue, which has not yet played out, is whether the step can be put in place with the right policies the right laws, that give the investors enough predictability so they will put down tens and tens of billions of dollars for really multidecade investment. >> that mings me to -- well, i've got a question about ranking of the most favorable countries because clearly some countries are going to be better candidates than others on investing into infrastructure. but before i go there,

mr. elkind, you also said that y'all had a focus on performance of products in the marketplace, manging sure offgrid systems actually perform. now, when you say an offgrid system, describing one of those to us. >> yes, sir. so, a small household or village level system that might include a -- one or more solar panels, perhaps paired with either storage capacity, battery systems, or a fossil fuel, diesel or other fossil fuel generating systems to use when the sun is not up, the wind is not blowing. that through to highly efficient

lamps, refrigeratorration for food and medicine, those applications. >> is that to say if someone has a house out there with solar panels, there's going to be an effort to have regulatory rules in place that they have to meet certain efficiency requirements? >> no, sir. the point here is that the -- if -- there are lots of examples one can see, for example, in solar lanterns where there were products -- there are products that are being sold into a number of marketplaces, including a number of the african countries, where the claims for the performance of the product simply don't match what the product actually does. in our context we call that false advertising. and so when the countries are saying, how do we think about the technical challenge of

knowing what product actually does what it says, that's an area where we have experience in the united states and can help to make that experience available. again, it's at their request, and the point is, not to allow fraudulent claims in the marketplace. >> the last thing -- i don't mean to speak -- apparently one thing you can say the last thing you want to happen is as they're delving markets-don't get burned with bad products and they say, forget it, never mind. now, there is any -- i guess all three of you -- my last question -- a ranking of the most favorable countries -- i'm going to have to believe y'all have done a lot of thought on this, i haven't, but just at a glance, a lot of factors whether that influence whether they're a good candidate, population,

topography. education resources the work force that can come in there and you can train, and then i mentioned earlier, property ownership. can you own property? is there a system in place to take over -- to condemn property if you will for a right-of-way. is the government stable? a stable system of government? s to those are just seven things i came up with. do you rank countries, which are the best candidates for investment in their infrastructure? >> congressman, thank you for your question. it sounds lining you were at some of these meetings where i these things were discussed by listing -- >> no. in the nsa was there gist got the tapes. i'm sorry. >> so, we don't have a public listing per se, but in the first

phase of power africa, we did very carefully through a rigorous interagency process discuss which would be the six focus country, and factors you describe are indeed many of the thing wed look at to try to assess who would be the good partners, and we'll go through a similar process as we think about the expansion. one of the ones -- there's plenty to say but one of the ones i'll just spend a moment on is the host country's commitment, because as some of the other testimony alluded to, if you're trying to have viable electric utilities, if you're trying to solve some problems that all private sector investors encounter trying to do viable deals, you have to have a commitment to do things differently, and so that was a very -- one of the many componented but one of the most important components to make sure that we really had committed partners who would do

this in partnership with us and the private sector. >> congressman, i can't give you a ranking but obviously i mentioned a number of the countries that we're working with on the oil and gas side that are different -- at different stages in their development. some or more gas-prone and others look like they have good oil potential, like angola and it's. i think the companies -- we have a range of companies and u.s. included, that are working in these areas, and that they're assessing the risk and they're assessing the commercial viability of these resources. there's a lot of exploratory drilling that is planned in some of these countries. so we'll have -- i think this is a -- over the last couple of years a lot of activity is in

area so a couple year before this shakes out in terms of the biggest opportunities but clearly mozambique and tanzania in terms of gas resources are ones that everyone is looking at, both for export as well as for looking at the potential for east africa and the whole -- and including in south africa, the potential for that gas to have -- develop the infrastructure. we recently had -- there was recently a seminar we had as part of the ministerial that looked at the east africa infrastructure that was done by the columbia energy center, there's a report i'd be happy to send you on that issue. i think on terms of the issue of the investment climate, the question of the -- whether countries are -- whether investors were willing to come in without sovereign guarantees is a key factor. and in some countries i think --

investors are saying in kenya we can do that. we're willing to come in without a sovereign guarantee in other countries you won't. so you didn't have to look to, are there in a sense partial risk guarantees and other mechanisms that the world bank or others can put in place that will in a sense mitigate some of the risk of the investment? >> okay, thank you. i recognize mr. stockman. >> i thank you for the panel to come out today on a friday, and according to your testimony, been no government 40 years and you were in bangladesh. was that good 40 years? my question is, when i was over there in nigeria, they were mentioning some policies -- i'm wondering, you had standards. are there any standards in which prevents interaction by the state department which is predicated on the government's social policies or just strictly

benign interpretation of their capabilities? in other words, when i was in nigeria, they were trying to free the girls that were kidnapped, and the u.s. military said, we need to get permission from our government to give them and facilitate information, and it was denied because of the interpretation of the president's leadership and any jeer ya. do you have a similar restriction on governments such as uganda and nigeria, saying we don't get involved because of their social pollty sis or -- policies or is that a separate issue? >> i think as we look at our overall engagement in the countries can we will work very closely with the ambassador and the embassies in assessing the political situation, the severity of the issues if there are social or human rights issues, and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. i think it's hard to generalize

other than to say that since war not just sort of pursuing energy for energy's sake, it is part of our broader foreign policy interest, and that it takes into account a lot of these -- >> would you -- could you get me -- maybe you know off the top of your head -- is nigeria or uganda -- are their restrictions that you have in terms of working with them on energy? >> i think right now we -- we started in uganda early on in terms of the energy governance and capacity initiative, and we have done a lot of work on geophysical side and environmental land use planning and et cetera. i think the situation now to the best of my understanding, we have put on hold any further work in uganda. >> that's because of the social policies? >> i don't know.

>> so, i was informed that we have scaled back our activities and looking at whether we can proceed now. so it's -- >> is that because of social policies you scaled back? >> i think it was a combination of things but i would have to get back to you -- >> i appreciate that. that would be very helpful. i think actually congressman smith would be interested in that. so i think congressman weber, all be interested. i have to tell you on a personal level when i was in nigeria and i think it actually was -- i think from mr. potel reside department, who advocated we not involve our military intelligence in helping nigeria because of some of the interpretations of the current government's position, to me that was a little bit alarming because i now found out today

that the chinese have given nigeria some of the equipment they've been requesting from the united states, and my fear is because of our policies that we may be driving -- as you know the constant inept is really being rae connellizeed not bit the british or the americans but by the chinese, in the republic of congress go there was copper sold for pennys on the dollar and the chinese have to n workers there and there's no development with the host country. it's very much -- in fact i argue worse than what the colonial governments ever did, and yet the chinese are continually expanding their breadth of involvement and my concern is we're putting restrictions on ourselves to the degree that now we become less important to the host countries. so as you go forward i would

hope that you would see that the chinese are serious player and that they are a -- in terms of competing with the united states, could be a very problematic done to the line. >> you are shaking your head yet. i hope you can tell me. >> thank you, congressman. i will definitely take note of your comments and i will investigate further in discussion with the head of our office there. i'm not familiar with the circumstances of this. but certainly fully recognize the point you're making about very active presidents of china and africa. >> i think sometimes we should do more pragmatic analysis, and not involve so much the -- we need to balance it in order to compete with our chinese competitors, and it is almost every country, whether it's chad

or egypt, or subsahara africa, i keep seeing these chinese in a heavy, heavy way, and privately i think it was the republic of congo some of the administrators say they prefer americans but the hurdles -- well, for reasons in past hoyt they have -- some countries have embezzled and taken money from their own people so a in some way it's justified. i'm more concern in interpreting internal social policies are beyond the scope of what the united states should be doing and i want to express that. i think in terms of the oil development in particular in subshould hair -- sub sahara africa, there are companies -- haliburton is in abu dhabi or dubai. kind of moved, they would like to be in there but there is, as

you know, foreign corruption exact can be some misinterpretation of that law being applied to our own companies. and to that extent, i think there's a great deal of frustration on our side in houston where we would like to see more cooperation and i think in deference to our own corporations, if you could give. the guidance and what they can do to facilitate more of involvement in those countries would be a great boon -- well, texas is almost booming when you have no problem with fracking in our state, but i'm still saying i think it would be beneficial to the united states, and maintaining that would keep our influence there i'm alarmed at the rise and you guys know i'm right -- the rise of china in there. obviously they have almost no restrictions whatsoever, and they know comp punks about

paying -- compunction about paying leaded large sums of money in order to facilitate they're advantage. and with that i yield back to my chairman now. >> thank you very much. before we go to the second panel i'd just like to ask one final question and then has to do with obviously the terrorist threats to many countries and people in africa from boca haram to al-shabaab are significant. how does pour africa integrate the -- to terrorist attack, including cyber attacks, which we know could be devastating to a -- an electrical power generating grant or any other that is out there. if you could perhaps speak to that issue, protecting and harden it to terrorism.

>> thank you for the question, chairman smith. i will defer to my colleagues in specifically in recommendation to power africa and those engagements there. i can tell you the recognition we encounter from energy companies and energy agencies, ministries, in our international engagements, to an ever-increasing degree recognize the important of protecting infrastructure. one of the thing that the department of energy does is to enter into cooperative engagements with key international partners, and we do this at the expense of the host country to help them identify vulnerabilities, plan their systems so they -- to sat they are resilient to any threat.

an all-hazard approach whether severe weather or cyberattack or physical attack. and we have found that this is an area where the united states is in a position to add a tremendous amount of value from our experience. i have to defer to my colleagues as to whether that is being done in the power africa case, i simply don't know the answer myself. >> thank you for the question, mr. chairman. i will double-check but i believe that some of these exchanges, depending on the topic that are of interest to the energy regulators, the powerful operatears or the utilities, some of these exchange is will be sending you details of, have included those topics. the other important thing is the involvement of the private sector. a lot of the private sector investors have experience in thinking through the risks and when they're investing from offshore they're looking at all

risks and that's another avenue in on this topic, which that's stand to lose a lot of money if they don't pay attention to these topics, and so we also count on them to be very involved, working with local folks to look at that. >> just to be certain, it's not an afterthought are it's integrity it into planning and development and implementation? >> 2009 double-check on that, sir, because i don't know if it's always been demand-driven or integrated to all. so i will come back to you've with a specific -- >> i appreciate that. thank you. >> in a sense the early stage of really developing the electricity grid systems in africa. we have the three power pools, east, west, and south, at their different stages. i think in that process and working with the international financial institutions like the world bank and african development bank there is a lot of consideration about the security and reliability issues

that are going into the development of the loan programs and specifications for what kind of systems they can put in place, but clearly it is going to be an issue that is going to be with us especially as they begin to invest more and more in developing high voltage transmissions. >> would the expertise of home lean security or the pentagon be -- or state department be incorporated? i say that because after we got hit in nairobi, i changed the hearings for the accountability review board up to 1998, of terrorist attack, and'll never forget when the assistant secretary carpenter said they will look for any vulnerability that nothing is off limits, and i'm paraphrasing but he sat right where you sat in 1999 when

i charity the hearings, and out of that it wrote the embassy security act which became law, and it -- the setbacks that were talk about were all finally implemented because they had not been implemented for years, and they're still in the process in some of the missions abroad, but it was a lesson i learned, people thought it wouldn't happen here, and let the guard down and of course, those who wish us well -- ill, i should say -- these nefarious networks, will look for any vulnerability, to use your word, which is the right word. if you could get back to us if you would, how that whole process of protecting -- i'm glad you elaborated it's jot nuss generals terrorism, but against earthquakes and natural disasters so they somebody committee, any way we can be helpful in promoting more of that. going forward they will be increasingly at risk. the terrorists are not foolish.

they will look for anything which will do maximum damage. thank you for your answers. miss bass, anything? anything you'd like to say before we conclude? well, i think i could speak on behalf of my colleague at the table and the interesting that we reiterate our thanks to all of you for your leadership and interest. we're not going to collectively solve this challenge without your help, and we very much appreciate it. >> thank you. it is a partnership. thank you for taking the lead and doing so it effectively. the subcommittee, membered of both sided of the aisle, are greatly appreciative of what you have accomplished. thank you. like to now welcome our second panel, benning with mr. walker williams, president and ceo of leadership africa u.s.a. and alternative marketing access. ...

>> >> end thank you for your leadership to make that have been. and we will hear from the sutherland last 30 years she was a resident of egypt in

my late 2002 and known as petroleum africa magazine and in addition with researchers development consultants. >> we will hookup with her by way of video but mr. williams you may start us off. >> they hear chairman smith remember and members of the committee. appreciate relayed this opportunity to come before you this afternoon to talk about energy that is of critical importance not only

for africa but important to the economy and i have some prepared remarks and i also have submitted testimony. coming from the civil society side of the ledger we do programs for africa it is on the initiative any ngo working in africa with energy and power and electricity. our emphasis is on education if we don't have it in the schools than kids are not

getting the education. and moving into the energy sector in order to insure the programs that we've put together can be sustainable chairman smith referred to some meetings several years ago but the background was they've reached regularly once a month but they were not involved with the deliberations so we took it upon ourselves and we wanted to hear from the african ambassadors from the beneficiaries of these programs that they are confronting that they spend

some time to look up. now it is an important initiative i will say as a ngo we link the bill to energy if you don't have the energy you will not make the kinds of changes and productivity once. so just like those african ambassadors they link energy as the key priority and i want to suggest in my prepared remarks the references to the bill it is

because they see that linked to energy. we don't see it that way but that is of the african ambassadors look at those two issues. there was reference to the ministerial. on behalf of the u.s. department of energy. for those that attended the audit was successful and yes we did have 500 persons for african companies that participate and it was successful enough that when i came back when i heard in ethiopia and we have 13 u.s.

synergies' participating in the focus of that was power africa and is going forward but i want to suggest that we also need to bring additional players and in my prepared remarks and we talk about that to link them with their parts. why do i say that? if you look at what is going on in the continent there is a policy that the african government's call localization they say if you want to work in our country

and look for business opportunities in our country you need to find a way to trade our local citizens and i think there is a nice marriage between our small business community in the african business community to share to work together around and under of course, with the sec program. so to make sure these programs encourage those companies reaching out for the smaller business community to make sure the opportunities are there to participate. that is what we need to focus on.

i believe them put forward to make suggestions the way to deal with energy electricity and power working with the groupings that are in place in africa. because you may find it is easier to take electricity from ghana and ship it to the neighboring country van internally. i have been in conversations and that is a strategy of they can find a way to do that it is from civilization. it is so powerful that if you came to me to say that is something they all share

a barrier to work across borders on the terms of these priorities. as you notice i did repeat the statistics or the 600 million without electricity. african needs resources but the other thing that it does need that u.s. government and our agencies are very capable to do. they just need to continue to work together which is an excellent program to electrify africa program and then i also say we need to

listen to our african partners and let's get partner relationships to maintain our competitive advantage when the agency's top i am a little involved in the industry. they don't control the energy they don't control oilseed have to find a way to create public private partnerships to be supportive of those entities that do have access to these resources like i am listening to the african ambassadors for what would do a better job not only here in the u.s. but africa. and with that i will defer to my counter partner. >> thank you for your

testimony you're full statement is a part of the record now apply to welcome from houston and texas, diane you are recognized. please proceed. >> i'd like to give appreciation to the subcommittee for to testify today. with the african energy industry 14 years ago i have been on the continent with fossil fuels with significant growth in international investment although with renewable energy that continent is under powered in most of it cannot reach the population.

into not have the resources but to for the of infrastructure after that cooling gas potential from independent firms with a secured a exploration licenses and to market their findings to multinational firms when it comes to drilling. so with the major discoveries of the past two decades the significant oil and gas discoveries for countries such as kenya, mozambique, a tanzanian, and it ghana. with current technology with

these discoveries for the gulf of mexico. the resources is power generation and the pipeline in smaller gas application in with those new discoveries the continent is to be reckoned with in the future. that 129 million cubic feet. this is not exclusive to

north america. to have their sheriff conventional resources and shale oil and gas and methane also have a government and private sector. for alternative energy there hundreds of small-scale projects to work not to mention larger ones on the drawing board. making progress with new legislation and to facilitate development of the industry. but to be under construction but the resources is 12 percent of the world's potential.

bet ethiopia with that democratic republic of conduct -- condo and to implement. but not to be left out geothermal to construct those power plants by 2015 in to have that impact for that oil project. for the biofuel applications.

into have that greatest achievement from regional demand. this technology transfer them in addition other projects become small-business owners but in closing the hydrocarbons and initiative renewable initiative set for word pay huge dividends from the first standard of living. and then to play a major role to make that happen. >> thank you very much for

your testimony and for your expertise cynic i appreciate you going out of sequence i just wanted a couple of questions but i want to address my colleague the concerns they raise about china but the first thing that we can do hopefully that power africa is in the senate. to the extent that we can increase our participation in because i know i have heard from many east african country's how they want to do business with us. so i just want to ask about power africa in the region to do urban areas in the residential areas.

but i just want to know your take on the same question. >> it is anecdotal to lose some extent and to looking at the effective role and the discussion that we talk about to ban electricity in two areas than i attended a session on africa rising and there were many entrepreneurial, sustainable the day when into rural communities to create opportunities for young people to supply electricity to make money to keep it going to keep incentives up.

so it is happening and could be expedited but when you get beyond the credit is part of that agenda. >> would you like to respond to that as well? >> i'm sorry that question was addressed to my colleague. can you repeat that? >> what is your opinion how power africa the efforts to reach beyond commercial area is going into urban and residential areas? >> with the focus on the industry i do know that we do appreciate american investment with the likes of china.

and then from the united states with the kerosene and the cooking stove. >> i represent houston. fracking wasn't part of the portfolio and he changed the revolution with fracking. i think we lost her. that is okay. beloved by to ask mr. williams in terms of our

side with the free market can you tell me how is it in what ways we can and do something to make it more beneficial for both sides? we have those that have well intended meaning but ultimately it impacts your industry quite frankly in a negative way. love laws we pass that were meant to be for good that are not? >> in response to be undiplomatic i don't think anyone ever passed into law that they don't think it will work the way they intended. not with that premise. the thing that i think we miss out on that we don't

listen to the beneficiaries. if i was to ask the african energy minister about china china, who would they like to work with? but we do put in place the policy of how it is implemented to create obstacles in the global economy. remember supply and demand so no one country can control that industry sova and may put obstacles up that is what they consider to be a fair shot. if the energy minister comes here to work on something i

oftentimes they have to go to the state department and the minister of foreign affairs so some of the things that we do create obstacles going forward where we cannot be as supportive as the private sector because of regulations in place and that agencies themselves don't want to show favoritism. so in some respects the playing field is not level and the industries don't get the benefit of what we can do. >> no offense to the state department or the previous panel but look at the time just to discuss the pipeline here in the united states and it is fortunate that i

see repeatedly with the energy minister and that was the complaint 18 years ago and it has not been resolved. i will not be hearing january i will be working as an intern for congressman smith but i hope we can do legislation to wear every step back to allow countries to work and it is absolutely true. they feel that we get a fair shake from americans and they do something the chinese don't they will train the local label labor in the technologies and skills and invest in infrastructure and they love that. the chinese are more parochial they bring in their own labor and then

they don't get to intermingle. they are almost on lockdown. so if you can get back some of the policies you don't have to be diplomatic. some of the things that we could facilitate to do a better job to help our industry i appreciate that. some frankness would be in order. >> take power africa for gulf you don't just say i want to turn on a switch. it takes years to develop the and for structure projects but the country needs the electricity now and we have a lot of technology that we can drop instead generators to start to feed the grid while we build out the permanent

sustainable power supply. there are things i'm happy to respond to the shortcuts to how to be more effective. >> i am still on your side. i went to help them and i have great compassion in they want with the rest of the world once but time after time our government intercedes in a way that is disruptive and harmful for those who claim we want to help. i am thrilled to have dedicated your life to this i appreciate the sacrifices you have made and i apologize for the bureaucracy with inconsistency. >>. >> i have come and knock down the door. >> we can do better i hear

five release of conversations of government officials excuse my expression i considered using profanity but i am upset time and time again we shoot ourselves in the foot. i yield back. >> just a few final questions. thank you for your testimony and leadership mr. williams. deal had the insight how nongovernment actors were selected? he made a good point about power africa with the diaspora. who does the selection? visit south selection? to resign by invitation only?

and you might want to speak to it as well but the new congress 34 years i am a proponent of waste energy initiatives to take care of the initial modern technology with that smokestack at the end of the day it is not always perfect for the right controls and an environmental safeguards as the continent and countries matriculate people want to do camcorders and what do do with it? and how it incorporates the initiative as a way to power

africa and also i will ask the earlier panel and i will ask you they will come back with some insight but i am fairly worried about cybersecurity issues and terrorism. if proper safeguards are not followed and then it could be demolished very, very quickly. and she has spoken about china. it demands a great deal of repayment and has access to the oil and the weapons are in exchange for those raw materials. and that we have competed well enough with the people's republic of china

to say that with the private sector as well what do they turn to? they turned to the chinese but they're still trying to compete with us spinning your first question non-u.s. africa of ministerial it was responsible for the outreach the u.s. department of energy handled the participation of those suits did come to ethiopia to participate. yes we reached out a catalyst for all of the agency's and then we've been

made easy for the african businessmen said they had to pay something sarah had both africa and u.s. businesses it was on us. it was on leadership africa usa. and with waste to energy and there is the collection now of waste and then that turns into energy. it is effective with plastic. there is a huge project going on.

and for those that dealing with energy but was that the university level. and if they could clean up the community's to have some money come from that then it is a win-win for everybody. >> just a couple of final questions. doctor, in response to my question but to ask whether or not the state's and local governments it becomes more and more important. obviously work with the central government but you

might want to expand upon that. and that competition with china how do we measure success? we know it when we see it are there metrics to say that we have seen these numbers of municipalities? does anybody have a backdrop in mind whether or not we are succeeding? >> picking up on the china question. the glass is half full and half empty and has a totally different system they go at it differently. when you talk to a company that says we are a chinese company where it is partially owned by the government representing the government so if you put it into that mix and then there

was no reference earlier to the clarification if you work within the bounds see were very clear the activities you undertake will not put you afoul and will be very helpful. italy become what is china's vast amount of finance data is available because we are therefore the long run. and the african governments understand that we need to work to move it out of the leadership with the heads of the ministries to where we talk to the business people who like here can go talk to

the government that needs the support and the assistance that we can provide them. >> this southerner is backlash lascar about china. a more general question is are we competing with the chinese and also with the waste energy that i just ask before you came back. how widespread are those projects that do to great things at one time to produce energy but also take care of municipal waste? they are ticking time bombs. could you respond to those? i would appreciate it. >> okay. with china, we are competing

pretty well with china. as others have mentioned that transparency issue there is only 7918 countries so those who have not yet signed up for it or to be approved because it comes with very little strings attached. on the other hand,, chinese technology is still lagging behind american technology and they would much rather

prefer with oil and gas exploration company. projects are all over the continent they are small scale and medium scale. one comes from the prison facility and the powers that facility and there's also a municipal waste energy so that has a very high potential with the continent but not as investment comes along. >> thank you for coming back on line. >> sorry about that. technology fails sometimes.

>> so with that energy planning of major projects to have regional implications to make it politically difficult. had to countries such as ethiopia were egypt view the conflict? >> it is basically a governmental play. i don't think ethiopia project would make it as far as it has without fear of spring and without the government in egypt. but we would probably still be at the debate.

but you by egypt in the not too distant future. >> and one last question tenures from now any type of guestimate or projection how many people on the subcontinent will have access to electricity? >> in the next decade? i don't see a huge increase maybe 15 percent. unless major energy products come to fruition. >> i have to share her sentiment that there will not be a substantial number

of people that have access to electricity in africa if we stay on the timeline we are on now is 24 the only - - 500 million without electricity. >> and it is 5 million right now. >> thank-you. we will end on that note. >> just things for the opportunity to be here to testify with some of the things that i said i will be back to you and i applaud your leadership as connecting users. >> thank-you very much. >> that hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

>> lauren gardner covering the debate in the senate what is behind the senate taking up the keys don't measure? >> guest: obviously there is political implications on the line senator landrieu from louisiana is in a very

heated race with congressman bill cassidy, a republican serving in the house. and for senator landrieu is key to demonstrate she can legislate and hold her own on the floor of the senate even when her leaders are not behind her. and once to show her voters she can get stuff done. the bill would basically take the removal process away from the president to give it to congress. then the pipeline would be approved in then go with the environmental statement that the state department over the issue that has to be followed. >> would get the 60 votes needed, you'' the senator as

saying i am confident she has the 60 votes to pass where does that stand? >> right now i have her at 59 at senator's car per last week pledged support for the bill. the have not found that 60 is'' yet but they don't think she would have pushed as hard she did not have 60 votes so we will see going into tonight and tomorrow. >> host: there seems a there's pressure you had the tweet from the environmental activists saying a warning shot fired to the democratic leadership that senator schumer marched in the climate march but the pressure of what they're feeling spinning they get

pressure from the environmentalist and allowing the pipeline to go forward with level of gas emissions there is a lot of pressure there and he votes no against the pipeline. >> so bill cassidy had 31 votes and what happens to the keystone measure but then that is the bill said to the president's desk. it will have cassie's name on it not senator landrieu but she said it does not matter as long as it reaches the president's desk. >> host: so you write the headline keystone dominates

the senate runoff. what is the story behind that? >> they want to take home some type of victory to get it to the voters. but to the louisiana of the voters think this is the wage issue? whole lot of senator landrieu victories she has had on the campaign trail has a direct impact to her citizens. like when she successfully negotiated to the insurance premium increases. >> of bay issued to the white house whether she with -- you will sign or veto the bill. >> they don't want to say directly one way or another to state at the state department if he had his

druthers he would not have the bill but he has not said >> host: end followers can follow lauren gardner on twitter. thank you for the preview. >> guest: thanks for having me. >> i must say "washington journal" first thing in the morning absolutely wonderful very informative, i really appreciate you letting people call in and sometimes even talk to the people that are running our country and our world. >> i would like to make a suggestion instead of dividing the country between democrats and republicans and independents, c-span

should ask the question and have callers call and agree or disagree. this would take the partisanship have the ideas get out there not the political divisions. >> thank-you. thank-you. thank-you. this morning today the best show i have seen. that is what we need. to have paid democrat and republican on there so people can ask them questions about what they will do. this was a great show. we need to have them explained what the policies are and how they differ. we need to know how they think, how they go and how we should vote. have won every day but their ideas and policies and have

them:and question them. thank you so much. >> [video cli] "washington journal" continues. host: our >> our guest says brian bennett for the l.a. times' national correspondent. give us the details on this

executive action. the presidentt of options of things he can do without going to congress. there are 2 types of categories of things he can do. one is small tweaks to the way the immigration system works, and the other is a bigger, more affirmative program that would encourage people in the country illegally to come forward and apply for a two-year work visa and two-year promised they would in the deported. that would be modeled on a program that we saw obama launch in 2012. program, just under 600,000 people who were brought here as children illegally have come forward and paid a fee and gone through a background check and been given temporary work visas and a promise not to be deported. the idea would be that if obama decided to do a program like that, he has to decide what population to invite to come in and apply for that type of temporary relief.

some of the things they are considering is making that u.s.able to parents of citizen children -- they are here illegally but the children were born here and when you come to the states you can become a citizen. host: exactly what is executive action? explain that to us. as the president is going around congress, circumventing congress, exactly what would he be doing? guest: the white house has decided they have the power to dictate who is deported and who is not deported. they are using a concept called prosecutorial discretion, a power that any prosecutor around the country uses every day. prosecutors on a local level will decide, today i can prosecute 100 marijuana cases or i could go after prosecuting one

murder. i'm going to put my efforts towards prosecuting a person who i feel presents a threat to public safety. that is the use of passive tutorial discretion -- prosecutorial discretion. the obama administration says we have power from progress to deport -- from cars to deport people from the country. we are focusing our efforts on deporting people who pose a threat to public safety, who recently crossed the united states, or are repeat immigration violators, people who have already been reported before and came back. host: we will have our regular three phone lines on the air. host: and we do have a fourth line for this segment, for folks who are here in the u.s. illegally.

host: we certainly hope you will call in as well and show your situation and your thoughts on everything that is happening here in washington. our guest is brian bennett of the "l.a. times." he will be with us for about 35, maybe 37 more minutes. we are about this potential executive action, which could .ome as early as this week mr. bennett, how long is the president been considering executive action, and what brought them to this point? how much work and study brought them to the point where they might do this now? guest: the president started talking about this earlier this year and the president was under a lot of pressure from groups you have been looking at the record of deportations under his presidency and felt like he hadn't done enough to protect families and keep families together. he was getting a lot of of pressure from within the democratic party to take some

action. when the senate immigration bill was not taken up in a house, the president was under pressure to do what he could on his own. and he asked is that his new head of homeland security -- he asked his new head of the department of homeland security, jeh johnson, and what changes could be made to make it more fair and more humane in the way it operates. host: give a sense of the legal arguments on either side as to whether the president has the authority to do this. guest: the are humans against him being able to do this would say that this is too big an extension of the idea , toecutorial discretion deciding who is going to be deported from this country when hundredsalking about of thousands or millions of people should be left to congress to decide and not to the administration.

, people havehand been pushing the president to do this have said that president an aggressived deportation missionary there was put into place under -- aggressive deportation machinery that was put into place under george w. bush and the senate immigration bill would have given legal status to a large portion of the 11 million people who are here illegally, and it is not consistent with that for the president to sit back and let the deportation regime continue to deport people if the senate law had passed and become law, would have been allowed to stay. host: one more quick question before we get to calls. our taxpayers on the hook for any of this is the president action?ecutive what is the cost and who pays? guest: 20 comes to this program

-- when it comes to this program or something similar bigger, those programs are technically fee-based. they need to be covered by the fees that the people applying would pay. initially you have to put in a lot of staff hours into deciding it and putting up the applications and receiving the first. -- first batch. there is an upfront cost. theoretically it would be covered by the fees. there are other tricks that are being considered to the system someone that would expand the number of high-tech workers. there is a certain number of of theiven and one options would be to allow people to bring more family members with them on the reason so that -- on the visa so that you would be able to have more people coming in for technology jobs. host: let's go to the first call for brian bennett of the "l.a. times."

tom, independent, welcome. caller: thanks for having me on this morning. host: sure. caller: i have a couple comments. it is not that immigrants are -- i mean they are causing problems, but the government needs to step up and take accountability for what they do. there is so much stuff going on here that i don't think the american people even realize. everybody wants to talk about the family and the family this and family that. our state governments don't care about none of that stuff. andimmigrants coming in making them illegal, they will be paying taxes and all the other stuff that we do that they are not doing that people complain about them doing. they have been here forever. they don'tropeans, have no problem, they just file for a visa and get it. why can't mexicans file for a visa? the jobs they do that, face it, whites, blacks, all of us were

not want to go out there and pick lettuce in the middle of the heat. i am in the construction business so i know that they do it cheaper, and the big business steps in and they don't -- they pay them like they do, rip them off. this thing is all about money. you have the family law system that is totally corrupt. you've got mediators, judges that -- i mean, half of what our problem is, most of it is family law system. everybody's complaining about divorce in this country, and then once you get into that system you get put in their, like a segregation. they put you down there, welfare, and they destroy you -- host: let me jump in. do you have a question for the reporter, brian bennett? guest: uh, not really. -- caller: uh, not really.

guest: he brought up some good points. there is a concern about people, especially some republicans on the hill, that opening up the doors like this and increasing the number of work visas will put pressure on the job market and make it harder for americans to get jobs. i think those are real concerns. on the other side, you have people saying that they people are already working and already in the market and what you can do by giving them a legal work permit is give them a little more leverage with their employer. right now there are abuses that are happening to people here illegally because employers can take advantage of them because of their status. by giving them legal work permits they can improve their working conditions and are more likely to pay taxes and pay into the system, more likely to pay into social security. you can boost revenues to cover that. host: here is a recent piece by brian bennett. this is in the "l.a.