>> that was "after words," booktv's signature program in which authors of the latest nonfiction books are interviewed by journalists, public policymakers and others familiar with their material. "after words" airs every weekend on booktv at 10 p.m. on saturday, 12 and 9 p.m. on sunday and 12 a.m. on monday. and you can also watch "after words" online. go to booktv.org and click on ""after words"" in the booktv series and topics list on the upper sight side of the page. >> you're watching booktv on c-span2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. booktv, television for serious readers. in -- >> and now, four days of booktv on c-span2. our holiday schedule features justice john paul stevens on

amending the constitution, former neurosurgeon ben carson talks politics with chuck todd, doris kerns goodwin remembers presidents road svelte and taft -- roosevelt and taft. plus a profile of simon & schuster, books on the pros and cons of football and a tour of the new york public library. for more information on this weekend's four-day television schedule, visit us online at booktv.org. >> up next, ronald kessler, author of "the first family detail," discusses what secret service agents have revealed about our presidents over the years and talks about the recent scandals involving the agency. he spoke at barnes & noble booksellers in washington d.c. this is about 50 minutes. [applause] >> thank you very much. it's a pleasure to be here. let's see, there. i guess that'll work.

as you can tell from the titles of my books, i like to write about secret subjects, paren my very challenging subjects that -- preferably, very challenging subjects that have consequences for society. it might be perverse because if a subject is too easy, i don't want to do it. this sometimes gets me into trouble. when i did a book called "moscow station," i revealed that a conscious gb around i've -- kgr archivest had defect today the fbi. i knew that he was safe, he was in the united states, and nevertheless i heard from inside the fbi that opened a leak investigation. and they were going to send agents out to my house to try to interview me. so i went through in my mind how i would greet them, i would offer them coffee, i would schmooze them, and i would troof to develop them -- try to

develop them as sources. i having done several books on the fbi and covered them at "the washington post," "wall street journal," thought i knew what fbi agents looked like, which is silly. never the less, a few days later there was a ring at my bell in potomac, maryland, which is a very quiet place. very few people ring the bell. i opened the door, and these were these two intense-looking young men with narrow ties, and i said, well, where have you been, i've been expecting you, come on in. they looked at me strangely and held out these pamphlets, the watch tower. you might have thought that i planned the individual who ran across the white house lawn to get into the white house to get publicity the for my book. that's not true, but on the other hand in my book i did predict a lot of the scandals that we see now.

based on the corner cutting and laxness of the secret service. it's not the agents who are actually brave and dedicated and will take a bullet for the president, it's rather the management that has created a culture that rewards agents for keeping their mouths shut and perpetrating the myth that the secret service is invincible and, on the other hand, punishes agents who point out deficiencies, who point out problems, who even point out potential threats. but a major focus of the book is what agency behind the scenes, because they really get to know the real character of our leaders. and that can be pretty shocking. for example, hillary clinton so nasty to agents who protect her that being assigned to her detail is actually considered a form of punishment. it is the worst assignment in the secret service. and yet here's this woman who claims to be compassionate, care

about the little people, she's going to be a champion of the middle class, and yet behind the scenes she treats those very same people with contempt. what does that tell you about her character and how we should choose our presidents? do we choose them on how well they smile on tv, what they promise which often they renege on, or do we choose them on the same criteria that we use in the rest of our lives when we choose a friend, we choose a new employee, anybody in our lives. we choose them based on their character. we would never associate with someone who treated people who helped them with nastiness and with contempt. and we treat -- we select them on track record. what have they actually done? what have they accomplished or what have they not accomplished? and so that's why you learn a lot in this book about how we should be choosing our presidents.

it is a totally apolitical book. the book says that president obama and michelle obama treat their agents with respect and consideration. they'll offer -- they'll invite them to dinner. on the other hand, agents have been dismayed to overhear michelle obama urge her husband to be more aggressive in attacking republicans and siding with blacks in racial controversies. the book reveals that joe biden, first of all, likes to skinny dip which offends female secret service agents. this occurs both at his home at the vice president's residence in washington and also his home in wilmington, delaware. more seriously when biden goes back to wilmington, which he does several times a week and that's another issue, he will order agents to keep the military aide with the nuclear football at least a mile behind

in the motorcade because he wants to have this image of a regular joe, so he doesn't want a big motorcade. but meanwhile, if president obama were taken out, we would be totally defenseless against a nuclear attack because there would not be time for the military with the football to catch up with biden so that he could unleash a retaliatory strike. on top of all that, it has cost us a billion dollars on biden's trips back and forth to wilmington. he has a home in washington that we pay for including five navy stewards who take care of every need including making pastries every night, and biden treats air force two like his personal taxi. sometimes he'll even go back and forth twice in one day, sometimes he'll even go back just to play golf with obama and

then go back to wilmington, and the cost has been a million dollars since biden took office. .. he would remember their kids names, where's jimmy carter did it only wants in his whole for your term. jimmy carter was another for me. he would pretend to be this good old peanut farmer, man of the people and yet he told his agency did want them to say hello to them in the morning on the way to the oval office. it was too much bother to say

hello back to a human being. he would pretend to carry his own luggage in front of the cameras but as soon as the cameras were gone he would give the luggage to aides to kerry or he would, or the luggage would be empty. sometimes he would come into the oval office at 5 a.m. and tell the press office to tell the press that he was in there working hard for the american people at 5 a.m., but he would fall asleep on the sofa and secret service agents would see him dozing off. so these are character traits that are not always obvious to public. their secret in many cases but when we do know about them we need to pay attention. reagan one day was going into the elevator at the residence and an aide came up to him and told him that donna rice affair

with the gary hart who was running for president was about to be in the paper the next day. reagan said boys will be boys. but they went up in the elevator with his agent and has is getting out he said, but boys will not be president. after reagan was diagnosed with alzheimer's he said to an agent there must be some positive side to this. maybe i will meet a new friend every day. that was the great optimism of president reagan. the book reveals the reason that john hinckley was able to shoot president reagan is that the reagan white house staff overruled the secret service to let spectators within 15 feet of break as he came out of the washington hilton, totally unscreened. the secret service did not want that but they caved spineless lead to what the secret, to what the reagan white house wanted.

ironically it was reagan's own staff that really caused the assassination attempt. this has never come out before. it's confirmed on the record both by the agent who was assigned to teach what they call the reagan attempt at a secret service training facility, and also by peter wallison who did a report for the treasury department when he was general counsel, the secret service was then within treasury. the report never said that it was reagan's white house staff that was responsible for this. walls and later became white house counsel under reagan and he confirmed on the record as well that is exactly what happened. going back, lyndon johnson was totally out of control. of course, back then the press never reported any of this. he would sit on the toilet and defecate in front of aids as he

was being briefed. he would hold a press conference at his ranch in texas and urinate in front of reporters, including female reporters. when he went into air force one he had this routine of stripping naked as soon as he got in the airplane, even with his own daughters and his wife in the airplane. one day when he was vice president, johnson was late for an appointment with the jfk. he was being driven by the secret service from the capital to the white house at about 5 p.m. it was rush hour. he was late and so he told the secret service agents who was driving to drive up on the sidewalk, get there faster. the agent refuse. the sidewalk was full of pedestrians. johnson took a newspaper and hit the agent on it and said you're fired. this went on every day. one agent said if this guy were not president he would be in a mental hospital. it was true and yet we entrusted our country and the lives of our

military who went to vietnam under his direction to this guy who was really a maniac. and so when you really feel back the onion, you find that we really have made a lot of poor judgment when it comes to electing our president's and our vice presidents. the secret service, despite the recent publicity, overall does do a good job. when they get a threat they investigate and they put the threats into one of three categories, class three is considered the most serious where the person really has the intent of carrying out an assassination, has the ability. in that case when the president visits that person's hometown agents will visit him or her and warn him to stay away from the

president, warning he will be watched until the president these. he will be watched. on the other hand, class one threat to someone who just burst out in a bar i wish i could kill the president, he's drunk. it turns out after investigation there was no real intent, and most likely the person will not be prosecuted because it is a federal crime to threaten the president. when president george h. w. bush was out greeting people at the gate of the white house, he liked to do that, agents didn't like it. they wanted to scream them, but a few days later a story appeared in the "washington post," and then a few days after that agents noticed a sort of classic lone assassin individu individual, someone who fits the profile of a lone assassin,

namely someone who is smiling whenever else is not, or vice versa. everyone is smiling and he is frowning. everyone else is wearing summer clothes. he is wearing a winter overcoat. they patted him down and sure enough he had a weapon, a pistol, and most likely would have used it. one of the most bizarre stories in this book, "the first family detail," is went again george h. w. bush was going to ended, oklahoma company was campaigning for reelection. in the secret service did the usual advance work. they talked to local law enforcement to see if any threats out there. local enforcement said there's a psychic in town who's been incredibly reliable in the past and has led us to bodies of murder victims. she said she has had this vision that when bush comes to town he will be assassinated by a sniper on an overpass.

the agents were of course embarrassed to take it seriously but at the same time they did. they went and interviewed this woman and they said you know anything more about this what she said i know the limousines to the motorcade are already in town but they said where? the air force base. can you show us? they went out there. cheaper to hangar and sure enough that is where the limousines were. she pointed to the correct one. but then she said that when push comes out of air force one the next morning is going to be wearing a sport jacket and export sure. they thought that was not. he always wears a suit. they did tell headquarters about it but the next morning they went to greet bush as he came out of air force one, and sure enough he was wearing a jacket, a sport jacket and a sports shirt. a shiver went down their spines, and they decided to divert the

motorcade to an alternate route which would not go under any overpass. and, of course, bush was safe. he was never told about at the time. he learned about it for the first time in this book, but that is one of the more bizarre stories that i reveal in this book, as well as just how well they do their job. for example, when the president goes out of town, stays in hotel, agents will not only make sure that nobody else is a guest on the floor with the president stays but nobody else is against even on the floor above and the floor below. and they will check out the sweet with the president is going to stay. they will replace the tv with their own tv because the tv could be a surveillance device. they will get rid of the telephone, look for bugs. they've only found bugs in a few cases where they were left over in the hotel because some actor or other celebrity had been

there and someone was trying to bug them. they will search through the carpets in the friends of pictures to look for explosive device or detonating devices, and then they will also check out local hospitals, exit routes, safe houses such as a firehouse where they might go if there is an attack. they have what they call expedient to which they would put over the president in the event of a chemical attack. so it's quite involved. however, in the book i going to a culture within management which really started in 2003 when the department of homeland security took over the secret service, of corner cutting, lacks is an attitude of we make do with less, we are the great secret service, we don't have to

lock the door of the white house because we are so wonderful. you saw the arrogance when the secret service director issued a statement saying that when the white house intruder gonzalez entered the white house, ran through most of the white house with a knife, he could've had weapons of mass destruction, he could've had explosives. the uniformed officers exercised tremendous restraint. can you imagine that? here's this guy who could've blown up the white house and she is praising the agents and officers for exercising restraint. that shows the arrogance of the secret service. if they would think they were such fools that we would fall for this baloney and think that the secret service had done a good job. at the same time the secret service lied about it. they said initially comes off as

we stopped at the door tha. that was a lie. actually penetrated the white house, overpowered a female agent while uniformed officers didn't unleash dogs initially, obviously they were simply not paying attention. why didn't they take lethal force? by definition he was a threat to the president. obama had just left but he could have returned and, therefore, he should've been taken out. you simply cannot wait until it actually enters the white house with weapons, with wmd, with explosives to find out if he really is a threat. and so on top of that the female officer was overpowered, and it took an agent who was off duty to finally take him down. another item in the book which the "washington post" picked up on it without crediting the book

is that in 2011 there were shots fired at the white house. a female uniformed officer reported that, but her supervisor overruled her, cooter, said it was probably from a construction site. and she later said she was afraid to push the point because she was afraid she would be criticized by management. this again goes to the culture of secret service management, not the agents as i said but management, that really punishes agents for raising any questions whatsoever. and so you have a cover-up mentality. it's really a culture that can only be changed by an outside director such as bob mueller was when he came in as the new director of the fbi. hubinette of the criminal division of the fbi was in terrible shape like the secret service but it needed to be more

focused on prevention of plots before they happen and that's exactly what he did, and made clear that any agent who had the attitude of i'm going to make an arrest, put them in jail, that's the end of it, is going to be left to work cases in butte, montana. the idea is to focus on individuals who may become assets to lead the fbi to more plots, more sources. and that's why we've actually not had a successful foreign terrorist attacks since 9/11. people don't tend to connect that with the fbi but that is exactly why, along with help from the cia, that we have not had a successful attack. every few months you see a rest by the fbi of terrorists and that's the bottom line that they are doing their job. i want to, speaking of the fbi

briefly, touch my previous book, the secrets of the fbi which reveals how the fbi breaks into homes and offices to plant bugging devices without getting caught and shot as burglars. this is sometimes employed in any major case whether it's terrorism and organized crime, political corruption and with the agents do is two weeks before the break-in, but, of course, case the joint and they determine who goes in, who goes out, who works there. on the night of the break-in the agents will watch the homes of those individuals to make sure they don't go back into the premises. it could even be an embassy. and if they do the agents will divert them. they will have police officers stopped him, give him a ticket. they will even have a traffic accident. they may even open up a fire hydrant so nobody can go back to the area.

they also take a photo of a dog that might be on the premises and show that to a veteran who subcontract with the fbi, and the veterinarian will describe -- prescribed just about of tranquilizer to shoot into the dog as their breaking because they don't want any barking dogs. at the end of the break-in and give that dog another shot to wake him up. they will bring their own dust into the break-in in case they disturb any dust on the coffee table or dust. if they want to put bugs, they showed me, i've got incredible cooperation. bob mueller approved of this cooperation personally. they showed me a real bug which is about the size of a postage stamp, a little bit thicker. it will record for 20 hours or transmit, as you wish. so let's say they want to put a bug in an office building.

they go to elevator school to learn how to control elevators and they will go in, take control of one of the elevators. they will get on the top of the roof of the elevator ended in the middle of the night to get out, put the bugs in and get back in the elevator and then during the day they will come out wearing business suits and nobody is the wiser. let's say they want to put a bug in the home in the middle of the night. they will take a photo of the front of the house and then blow that up into a huge tarp that they draped over the front of the house so that any bystander walking by on the street in the middle of the night looks at the house and thinks that's the house but actually behind the tarp the agents work to defeat the alarms and defeat the locks. and they put the bugs and. they have a phony bush that opens up like an umbrella and they will walk slowly with bush in front of them towards the front of the house and then they will shoot himself with the bush as they defeat the locks and

alarm systems. a tremendous number of anecdotes, many of them funny come in this book, "the first family detail," and just one is when they were going to put bugs in a mafia hangout in philadelphia. the agents determined that there was a backdoor but they didn't want to go in the backdoor because it could be booby-trapped soviet ago in the front door but front door overlooked and all mike barr. the patrons could see the agents trying to defeat the locks come so the agents borrowed a city bus and drove in front of the mafia hangout which was supposedly an electronics store. i got up, put the of the bus up so looked as if the bus had broken down. they got out. they defeated the locks but they patrons couldn't see them. the bus went around the block as they're putting the bugs in. it came back but it went by a

bus stop and go to patrons in the bar waiting for the bus and the bus went whizzing by them and they were furious. they went running for the bus and when the bus stopped in front of the mafia hangout these two guys ran in, drunk, and the first the agents didn't realize that they were not within because the agents were from different offices or they were with this secret team which is called tactical operations which is a team that breaks into the homes and offices and i was able to go out to see the headquarters of this operation and there's a photo of in the book, "the first famil "the sec" the agents are taking off their weapons and walkie-talkies and these two guys were ringing to get off. they were scared to the agents had stopped bothering. i'm having enough trouble driving this bus. a top and a drive this in 20 minutes.

and another agent cut up and get a shotgun over his shoulder, and then it really started ringing to get off. and so finally the agent who was driving understood what was going on. let them out. they would run down the street and nobody ever heard from them again. when it comes to the secret service budget, which is only $1.6 billion a year, and that includes not only protection of the president and vice president, almost 40 individuals altogether including white house staff as well as visiting heads of state, the national now maven conventions plus they investigate counterfeiting and financial crimes, the budget is ridiculous. it's the amount of one stealth bomber and the secret service creeps along like a car without

an oil change. and all around it is crumbling. they have refused to update their devices at the white house for detecting intruders. the more sophisticated technological devices that are available now, they have refused to update devices for detecting weapons of mass destruction. they refuse to put devices in to detect gunshots, and we saw that when the secret service didn't realize until four days later at the white house had been shot up in 2011. 2011 but even the d.c. police have devices for detecting gunshots. they are not keeping up-to-date with the latest firearms. the fbi has more powerful weapons. they will not allow a time for agents to qualify for firearms we qualification or physical

fitness test, and they cover that up by asking the agents to fill out their own test scores. there is dishonesty involved which would never be tolerated in a law enforcement agency. when members of congress throughout the secret service training center which i've been to with my wife who contributes vivid descriptions in my books, she's a former "washington post" reporter and she wrote the book undercover washington, which is about spying on washington, and we saw how they train, for example, when driving to do a jig and when they do 180° around and they have scenarios where they detect explosives. remember -- members of congress would go out there and they would show them sinners represent as spontaneous and isn't it wonderful the agents did their job? secretly when congress goes out there and the secret service rehearses the senators beforehand so everyone knows the answers. i didn't, total dishonesty and

nothing is worse than any law enforcement agency. they also had their statistics. they will take credit for some cases that local police have investigated and closed and then they go out and take a copy of the report and they call that an investigation and include that in their statistics. it's just the most poorly managed organization you can imagine. in my previous blog, i went to a little bit of this but much more in the new book. and one of the more shocking examples of this quartet is that under pressure from white house staff or campaign staffs the secret service will let people into the events without magnetometer or medical detection screen. it's like letting passage into

airplane without metal detection screen but if anybody did that they would be fired or possibly prosecuted. secret service will cut corners in this way because event is about to start, but still a line outside men because they secret service hasn't provided enough magnetometers, and then they will cater to secret service has no business getting -- caving to any of these events could result in an assassination. you could have five terrorists come in with a grenade but on a regular basis the secret service will engage in this real negligence. this is something that still has not been picked up by the press. based on my previous book i wrote in the "washington post" in an op-ed back in 2012, so far the biggest scandal in history of the secret service involved agents hiring prostitutes in colombia which is by the way a

story i broke but the media largely ignored a much bigger scandal at the agency, and lacks culture that condones cutting corners directly compete endangering the life of the president. that was in 2012. it wasn't until the intrusion by gonzales and the fact that an armed individual who had not been screened was allowed in an elevator and with the president, that finally president obama obviously demanded the resignation of the director, julia pierson. the previous director mark sullivan should have been removed. should have been removed after the salahis, the party crashers entered the white house state dinner even though they were not on the guest list as well as a third entry, another story i broke. why would uniform officers ignore the fact that they're not on the guest list, ignore the fact that they'v they had not ge

through a background check? one clue and you can tell from this, but also one clue is that when mary cheney, dick cheney's daughter was under protection, she would try to get her agents to take her friends to restaurants as if they were taxi drivers. they refused, as they should be the our law enforcement officers. they are to protect individuals under certain laws and certainly that doesn't include taking mary cheney's friends to restaurants. but she threw a fit and got her detail later removed over this. so what message does that send to the uniform officers at the white house gates were confronted with his glamorous couple? it says hey, if it turns out they were supposed to be on the guest list and there was some air and the white house staff complains, we could be in trouble with her own management because our own management would not back a as was the case with mary cheney.

and by the way, anybody who thinks this book is not a political, i point you to republicans such as mary cheney who are skewered in this book as well as spiro agnew for having a number of affairs going at once come even though he claimed to be for family values. that was his whole shtick, as well as jenna bush who evaded her agents all the time, gave him a hard time, we give and go through red lights trying to to evade her agents. just didn't understand what security was all about. thought it was a game. and senator ted cruz. you have to buy the book to find out what they say about senator ted cruz. i think it's interesting. and so then at that point president obama said he had confidence in his secret service but how can anyone say that confidence in the secret service?

it's not that he has to come out publicly and criticize them. he could just be quiet but at the same time look for replacement for mark sullivan. mark sullivan it turns out ordered, and this is one of the most shocking revelations, ordered agents who were protecting president obama at the white house, including many lifted off in marine one, to go to camp david one weekend, especially looking out for snipers that might try to take it out as he is lifting off his family, ordered these agents who were on what's called the prowler a team, instead of protecting the white house, go to southern maryland to protect mark sullivan's own assistant who had been harassed by a neighbor. this neighbor how to properly called the police to the police were handling it. the secret service has no legal authority any more than the fbi to protect its own employees and get mark sullivan ordering agents to keep this secret told

them to go protect his own assistant over a matter of months. and then on top of that, and that was revealed by the "washington post." i had a story back in 2012 the books being what they are, i had not brought it out yet. what was not in the "washington post" end is in this book is that the agents on top of all that retrieved confidential law enforcement records about this neighbor. again not only a violation of law but a violation of criminal law to retrieved confidential law enforcement records on anyone unless you have a legal basis, which they did not have. so not only in is this a shocking example of dereliction of duty, by mark sullivan to protect the president, not only a violation of criminal law, but it shows the culture and it shows the effect on the agents.

agents are there to protect the president. they will take a bullet for the president. they are real patriots, and yet they are being told by the director it's not really important to protect the president. i will just have my assistant protected as a favor. another example in the book, and this is not hit the press yet, is that when the actor bradley cooper, i know you know who bradley cooper is but i do know who he was. i understand he's an actor, went to the white house correspondents' dinner where obama spoke, a high ranking secret service official in new york ordered agents at the washington hilton to let bradley cooper and his suv into the secure area in front of the hotel are only secret service vehicles were allowed. and even they had to be screened for explosives by dogs, namely

belgium dogs that cost $4500 each. they are trained to sniff out explosives and also to take down individuals such as one running across the white house lawn. and anybody could attach explosives to the underside of the car. obvious i'm not saying that bradley cooper is a terrorist anybody could've attached explosives to the underside of a car, and that's what even the secret service vehicles have to be screened for explosives. and get this new york official in the secret service apparently did some favor to bradley cooper and his security people to compress them, perhaps is looking for a job once he gets out, tells them to just ignore the most basic security procedure. so that again tells you the culture that has brought us to this point where we actually

have an intruder running into the white house, and an individual out into an elevator period was not been screened regardless of whether this individual has a gun by basic protocol you never let anybody in the elevator with the president unless it is someone who has been the screen and is known to the secret service. so that is where we stand today. i do hope that president obama chooses a good outside individual to head the secret service. i think his failure to replace the director right after the salahis, which is what, six years ago, is a colossal failure of management judgment. i think also perhaps he is very impressed by his own agent, as i'm sure he should be. and so he thinks this represents

the secret service, there's no problem. and yet it is his own life that has been at stake, and is still at stake as well as the lives of his own family. so that is where things stand. i think obama is capable of selecting a good leader for the secret service as he did with james comey, the new fbi director. he's very admired by agents, he's doing a good job. it is possible to get someone from the outside who can shake it up, change the culture, is not beholden to interests within the agency. but i'm telling you it's going to be a monumental task because everywhere you look there's corner cutting, laxness, a culture of spinelessness, and is sorely in need of reform. and i hope that individuals reading this book will consider

it to be a roadmap of what needs to be done to reform the secret service because it has dozens of other examples of this culture of corner cutting, as well as the real story on our leaders and that's something we need to wake up to. we need to pay attention to character and track record, and stop fooling around with if they make a gaffe in some debate and are they nice on tv. and that's to we've been choosing presidents. and over and over again we're disappointed. that's the most important message in this book. i would like to take your questions. >> you explain to us like a high level of frustration among like to secret service agents this is like interest from your

briefing. is there, like, any initiatives from any congressional comity or maybe any other organization to go ahead and conduct such reforming for the agency, even though it's going to step into the president rule amongst all of this? >> is there a level of frustration, you can believe that there is. i interviewed many current agents as well as former agents. i was also able, as i said, get cooperation from the secret service to visit the training center and the command center. but they are outraged at the agents are outraged at this culture, yet they feel as though their jobs are at stake. when agents were ordered to protect the assistant of the director mark sullivan. they felt they were probably violating the law and yet they felt if they blew the whistle,

if they stood up for what was right, they would be fired. that's a serious it is. it's a scandalous ultra. the other part of the question will hearings and investigations be useful and go into this, you know, i remember back after the salahis did their thing, crashing the state dinner, that hearings on the hill and they gave the director a hard time but nothing changed. absolute nothing changed. if you have any organization that is screwing up, let's say that microsoft or apple were losing a lot of money, what would you do? the you do? the we bring in any ceo who woulwould shake it up but he wouldn't have hearings or investigations or reviews. that's exactly what's needed with the secret service, it's simple but you get the right manager in there. for example, when bob mueller

was fbi director, as soon as he came in he was having briefings by top fbi officials, and one of the officials was over counterintelligence started obfuscating and misleading about problems within her division which involved a spy case in los angeles. and he just removed her like that and that sent a message right away, you better be honest, you better be candid and you better do your job. that made huge difference in the fbi. but that's what you need with the secret service, a good manager. people say it should be one does but it's unfortunate we have to think like that. we have so many women who are so capable of running businesses. meg whitman comes to mind, and certainly within the government is the same, as well as men. it just needs to be someone who

knows what he or she is doing and it's very, very simple. yes. >> why do you think that the fbi is so much better funded than the secret service? >> the fbi rightfully has been pushing to get more funding and has done a very good job of it, whereas the secret service not only has not been pushing for more funding, because they could get a. if he went to obama and save your life risk, we are screwing up, we better double the budget which is what i think should happen, boy, you can be sure that money would be provided. $1.6 billion, it's ridiculous for this agency. and congress would go along as well. but as part of this screwed up culture they have the attitude we make do with less. in my book i quote mark sullivan singh said, we make do with less. they are proud to spend less

money. what are they thinking? this is the president we're talking about. if you have an assassination you know if i democracy. people sort of record of when you hear the word assassination. -- recoil. it's so unthinkable and sounds terrible but it's very, very possible. in fact, i quote in the book, and finally two-thirds of the book is on the record, one individual who was not on the record who says that it's a miracle that there is not already been an assassination because of office corner cutting. even with the best security the president is very vulnerable. and with the worst security, now, of course, isil terrorists are going to realize they can overwhelm the white house after what happened. it's a terrible situation. another difficulty that agents face beside their screwed up

management is many presidents think our are in mortal and pooh-pooh advice they're given by the secret service. and that goes back to jfk to jfk refused to let agents right on the rear running board of his limousine. they wanted to to agents on the rear board in dallas but it had been at the agents would've jumped on him as soon as the first shot which was fired, which was not fail and push into the floor and saved his life. there's no question whatsoever. so with all the conspiracy theories and all the talk about whether the secret service screwed up come in the and i'm afraid it was the president himself who made it possible for him to lose his own life. abraham lincoln, same thing. even though the civil war was going on he refused to have any security. finally, just before his assassination he agreed to have

one d.c. police officer with them. on the night of the assassination this one police officer, parker, decided to go out and have a drink at a local tavern. lincoln was totally unprotected and, of course, he was shot and killed. secret service has so many difficulties they have to face, it's one of the most important agencies in the federal government. and until now it has been very secretive. people ask me how did you get them to talk? i think that they understand that i tell an honest story. i have a track record of writing about the fbi, the cia and other sensitive areas. and that i will tell it like it is. for example, with the fbi i say that they have been doing a wonderful job since 9/11, but on the other in one of my previous

books exposed william sessions, the fbi director at the time, for engaging in personal abuse is having the fbi a4a fence around his own that had no security purpose, taking personal trips on the fbi plane. quite a few other infractions, even letting him his wife, alice, into the fbi headquarters even though she didn't have a top secret clearance. she would be given a pass so she could get him. that book led to his dismissal as fbi director. so if agents really, really are dedicated to the truth, they understand i'm going to tell the truth as well. also i've been told i listen very well and that seems awfully simplistic and doesn't take a lot of skill. but i did a book on tom beach, i call that my midlife crisis. i want to drink more champagne and go to parties with my wife. it is a secret society in palm beach which is able to penetrate

and one of the people there said nobody listens to anybody. you listen, and that's perhaps part of why i've been able to tell these stories in these books. >> on a lighter note you talk about the secret service working with a psychic, was at the george bush threat? could you talk about that? >> i did talk about that. the fact that the secret service actually listened to a psychic and it is one of the more amazing stories in the book. i'm glad you pointed that out. any other questions? all right, well, thank you so much for coming and i appreciate your questions. [applause] >> here's a look at the current top 10 best selling nonfiction books according to "the new york

times."

spent a look at this list according to "the new york times." >> david rosenberg. david rosenberg company, he runs an ohio-based collection agencies has been involved in a number of federal and state investigations for abuse of collection tactics such as calling people who have resolved their debt decades earlier and trying to get that money, more money from them, we are suggesting there were lawyers and they need representation. there have been dozens of suits against david rosenberg's company and he has settled many of these lawsuits suggesting that there certainly is something sketchy going on. if you're thinking that include a picture of david rosenberg

because that's also picture of kim kardashian, just a very cynical individual. jay-z primarily gets a spot in five because he of the build a monument to "crapitalism." brooklyn, new york, downtown brooklyn, brooklyn now has the brooklyn nets. they moved over from across the bay from new jersey, and jay-z was the one man pr machine in bringing attention to moving the nets from new jersey over to brooklyn. he also partner with a guy named bruce ratner. bruce ratner who was a real estate developer in new york city. bruce ratner saw where the berkeley center sense, this new stadium, he saw an opportunity to build luxury apartments. the problem was that these luxury apartments bruce ratner

wanted to build was sitting on land that was partly owned by other people. it was their proper. bruce ratner decided how can we get individuals off the landslide to build my luxury apartments? one way to do that is through the use of eminent domain to unfortunate for him you can use eminent domain to take people off the property for luxury apartments. what did he decide to do? you could use eminent domain to kick people off the land and the businesses relocate if you have a public good that includes a sporting arena. because all the thousands of jobs and economic develop a it is supposed to bring but that's where he got jay-z involve. casey became a minority shareholder of the brooklyn it can also a shareholder of the berkeley center itself. so bruce ratner got his lunch we apartments that are still ongoing and under construction. jay-z helped ring the brooklyn nets to brooklyn, and new yorkers were able to offer

$760 million in government subsidies to help build this monstrosity which by the way is nicknamed the rusty turtle in downtown brooklyn. also the bruce ratner can have his luxury apartments, and jay-z can use his celebrity status to come by the way, rap about later wrapped about how the exploit saying he made millions off of this deal. here's a man again -- outrage over the haves and have-nots, the wealth disparity in america he could easily have used his celebrity status to bring awareness to these economic injustice is bruce ratner wanted his luxury apartments or wanted a stadium, he didn't have to go ahead and squeezed taxpayers for $760 million to do so. he could have easily found the investment on his own. if he wanted to pursue this project. of course, the thousands of jobs come anytime there's a public or

private partnership, those are the buzzwords. public-private partnership, something doesn't sound right. usually is not right. the thousands of jobs never materialized for new yorkers, and most of the jobs are part-time, not even full-time jobs. that's what $769 in government subsidies each in new york and, of course, the politicians things this is a good deal. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> here's a look at some books that are being published this week.

look for these times in bookstores this coming week and watch for the authors in the near future on booktv and on booktv.org. >> you are watching booktv on c-span2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. booktv television for serious readers. >> and now, four days of booktv on c-span2. our holiday schedule features justice joh john paul stevens on amending the constitution, former neurosurgeon ben carson talks politics with chuck todd. doris kearns goodwin were members presidents roosevelt and taft. profile of book publisher simon & schuster. looks on the pros and cons the

football, and a tour of the new york public library. for more information on this weekends four-day television schedule visit us online at booktv.org. >> you describe with wonderful "popular science" detail here why dogs are so good it does. tell us what you think most people don't know about why, the kinds of things dogs can do that machines are humans can do. >> it's a much more layered way. example i've been using, from education, not my own, but they call it a steal or hamburger. but we recognize, the dogs are smart all the ingredients and they can call them out. this becomes important in searching for ieds because the composition of a particular homemade explosive is never going to be exactly the same every time. the a very crude and easy to make in that way. ..

our different environments impede them as they become frightened or uncomfortable that even though they have this ability within them, it is not always easy to put it in the

past. >> karen abbott recounts the covert acts void set for women during the civil war who befriended northern politicians to send privileged information to southern generals. this is a little under an hour. >> okay, i am thrilled to be here with abbott. i love her book, all of her books. you take us and show us this entire other view of chicago through the eyes of the two most famous americans not as ever. in american rows, we learn about the american icon who really hasn't been explored the way you explored her. so now, with "liar, temptress,

soldier, spy," you hit on several rings we adore. and real spines. tell us a little bit about what this book is about. >> i was born and raised in philadelphia and moved to atlanta in 2001 and noticed immediately that the civil war and conversation in the south the way it never does in the north. i found the occasional confederate flag on the lawn, heard the jokes about the war movement aggression. the point was really driven -- [inaudible] [laughter] good play. and the point was driven home, especially that it wasn't a joke when i was stuck in traffic on

404 hours behind a pickup truck that had a bumper sticker that said don't blame me. i voted for jack davis. so i sat there looking at the bumper sticker for hours and started thinking of course about what would the women doing as my mind always goes to let the women were doing. of course they didn't have easy access to political discourse. they didn't have the right to vote. they couldn't influence battles. i wanted to find in particular for women who cheated, lied, stole, murder, drank, five and blurted their way through the water. these are the people i want to spend time with. >> as authors, we often talk about and are often asked how we find her stories. i have to say founded on a bumper sticker has come up for me quite often. so once you got entries, once

that little seed was planted, how did you come across before incredible women? >> i will fight for in particular his tapestry rose to retell the story of war in some way and there was important to me that even if you are typically interacting all the time, although two of the women do, the confederate spies idolized the older confederate spy. they were running into the same people and there was a cause and effect. once woman behavior would affect the other woman's circumstances than i wanted to be their stories together in a really interesting way. >> one of the things i like best about this is there are these four very distinct characters. they shot the row background, the run experience in their own views on the particular conflict in mail for the reader a civic view an entry point into the civil war. spoiler alert, here's how the war ends. we know where it's going. but what i like about this is we

know where you're headed. they see me as a really personal ways to look at not just therefore, the war in general, how people become in, what roles they take on, how it affects their lives. these four characters are so distinct and different, talk a little bit about the four women who carry this boat. >> apologies to john mcrae. i think all the women at the same time with liars, and hamsters safe, soldiers and spies. the first was one who provided comic relief and was my favorite in a lot of ways because she was the paint. >> lovably crazy. >> denise and i were talking before we went on and she was sick a sociopath on spring break all the time. if anybody remembers spring break, she's having a really good time in their something to talk about.

>> yes. applying this to the civil war with some interesting circumstances. he was 12 years old when the water broke out in a federate. i will just say he had no filter. if miley cyrus had an 18th century baby, she was very overt. those were her opinions and sexuality. >> i'm sure there are. she wrote this great letter to her cousin is sort of sums up how she thought about herself. >> which was what she thought about most of the time. >> yes, exactly. i am called she wrote to her husband, i weigh 106.5 pounds.

my form is beautiful. my eyes are dark blue and so expressive. my hair is a rich brown and i think a tie in nicely. my neck and arms are beautiful and my foot is perfect. i wear a size two and a half shoes. may keep the same pearly whiteness. i think perhaps a little lighter. knows quite as large as ever, beautifully shaped and indeed i am decided that the most beautiful of all of your cousins. [laughter] so that his shell for you. she kicks things off soon after the letter was written on the fourth of july 1861 by shooting a union soldier who threaten to raise a flag over her home and bell was not standing for that. >> so in addition to wanting a has-been, she's trying to be sort of endocrine that with her

cousin. what does they'll want in this story? what does the particular character wanting the story? >> bell woke up every day wanted something different. all of the appointed to what can i do to advance my position and made myself were famous, which is a strange attitude as someone who purportedly spy to have. this is somebody who after she shoots the union soldier dead goes and spies for the confederate army. but while he is honestly trying to help the confederate army and disseminate information that might be helpful, she's also trying to do whatever she can to bring attention to resolve. >> she ends up getting attention from a very prominent individual. >> was quite obsessed with general stonewall jackson who is sort of my confederate boyfriend, my civil war boyfriend. and stonewall jackson was an interesting character. you asserted a rock star in the civil war. there was a great story about him.

he was in the lobby of the hotel in 1862 and women swarm 10. they were in after him down the street if he was in the lobby. in this sense is they just followed him and started ripping buttons off his coat and keeping souvenirs. he was great about this. he actually said at this point, babies, babies, this is the first time i was ever surrounded by the enemy. bell was fascinated with him and obsessed with him and she told reporters she wanted to quote occupy his tent and share his dangers. so she spent quite a bit of time going after that goal. so bell had another idle in her life, rose. rose is another one of the main yours, another key figure in the confederate side of the story. talk little bit about those. >> well, rose was an interesting

woman in a difficult position when the war broke out. she had lost five children within four years. she lost her husband and a freak accident. she lost her financial stability and in a 20 years prior to the war she had had access to democratic politicians. she had actually been an adviser to president james buchanan. with the election of lincoln, all of that disappeared and she was desperate to retain this position, this society and influenced she wielded. and a confederate approached her in the spring of 1861 and said would you be interested in running a confederate spy when washington d.c., the federal capital, rose disregarded the danger of that inside of course. of course i want to do that. she immediately began cultivating sources. a cultivating i've been sleeping with. by the number of high-ranking officials including senator henry wilson of massachusetts

who was an abolitionist republican on the chairman of lincoln committee on military affairs. you can imagine i was quite interesting. she entertains these men in her home. the neighbors watched her, watch the men come and go. it was a rare, very catty situation going on. rose knew what she was doing them is very terse about her intent of the federal army. >> now, how did they'll first learn about those clinics delino a kind of wants to be rose. >> l. went to school in washington d.c. and she had her societal time of course. i love this story. she carved her name was hurt time and in the window of her school. belle lloyd was here. burroughs at that time before the war broke out, rose was still the leading lady of washington iad n. roses

invitations were the most coveted in town and knew about all the politician and rose entertained democratic and republican politicians and was quite influential across the board and decided to knew about it even after the war broke out and became a prominent side. >> so let's now move so that we are two of our four women. let's move to the women and talk a little bit about elizabeth at >> elizabeth's family with the officer. she was the union lady living in a confederate capital. so the exact opposite situation. as with the celebrated beauty, one of her contemporaries that quote, she was never as pretty as her portrait showed. [laughter] >> true, very true. >> they didn't have photoshop.

[laughter] pity that the bed was a staunch abolitionist preacher was born and raised in richmond, there's been a lot of time up north being educated and was under the care of an abolitionist government. when she came back to richmond, she began freeing the family slaves. after the war broke out, this is a dangerous position for her to have. before she was a center called lady who lived in a with her mother, but after the war broke out, she was a traitor, a union supervisor and somebody they were desperate to a confederate detective started following closely. >> now this is somebody that did not need to do anything. she was well taken care of. you have any idea what drove her, kind of what motivated her? >> guest: she was really moved by slavery. she was actually going towards the slaves and would we open land right about this in her

diary. she would bring prominent guests to richmond and zany to show you the situation here and she would again be overwhelmed by how her situation was. once her father passed, her family had owned slaves. in order to be in a richmond society, was her father passed from the she began freeing the family slaves. she began spending her entire 10 with the purpose of buying slaves just do for event. this is something near and dear to her. >> what i found really interesting about her which is related to her is of course a relationship with the one-man, the african american who worked in her home. >> once elizabeth started assembling her spy ring, she recruited people from all walks of society. but really chose one person in particular to be the linchpin of this whole operation. i was maryjane browser who is a former family slaves and free

her when she was young. she was a remarkable woman. elizabeth center to be educated. of course it was against a lot the time to teach slaves to reader price. solicited went to the confederate first lady and said i hear you need help. i am a proper southern lady offering you one of my servants that might assist you with your needs. she is not a smart woman. she's kind of bumbling, but she might just fit the bill for you for a while. and so maryjane browser goes to the confederate white house and she's tired and little does anybody know that not only is maryjane rhetoric, but also highly educated and has a photographic memory. and so, while she is testing jefferson davis' desk and cleaning up the toys, she's also sneaking peeks at the papers on his desk and listening to the competent show conversations and reporting every single word back to elizabeth. >> i love that.

so now we move onto frank. i'm not blatchford inc. who rounds out our union contingent in the book. >> yeah, i'm a bad man has a bit of a tragic story. she was a canadian whose father had arranged in marriage for her and she had seen arranged marriages done for her sisters which was done nothing but take them miserable. she wanted something more for herself. one night she cuts her hair, trade and her for a suit and flees to the united states. once she appears she started hearing about the abolitionist john brown and the events leading up to the civil war and she wants a piece of that. emma wants to live the life of adventure. she was a union army and spring of 1861 and was quite remarkable how she gets away with that. the first thing that came to mind, wait a minute, didn't she

have to take a physical? the first thing in everybody's mind. how did that -- how does that work out for her? >> the truth was the official protocol dictated that all doctors had a further examination. but doctors across the country flooded these roles. they needed to fill the quota is. they needed bodies out there. i'm asked to pull out the powder cartridge is and they just wanted somebody who could do the job. the doctor showed emma sand. went back, she became private thompson. >> love it.

so what these poor women, as it has given us for unique personal lenses with which to view the civil war. one of the things i liked is that it is so balanced. when you were doing your research, were there any other women you came across? like how did you find and decide on these four women? it is such a great day. she would be great, or i wish i had found -- talk a little bit about planting and deciding on them going back. >> were plenty left on the cutting room floor. the civil war has numerous good care of areas and interesting people. there were two sisters i was interested in. this was jenny and longing to come into confederate ladies, who like many southern lady. all matter of goods and smuggled them across the lines. they not only -- they adjusted

them at the altar. i wanted to find a way to fit them in, but there wasn't enough for a nonfiction account. there just wasn't enough there. there were some interesting mail spies. you think the women were mainly just cross-dressing. it was someone by the name of benjamin stringfellow who is a confederate for judge stewart and he was 94 pounds. delicate features, blonde hair and according to one of his comrades. he would call himself sally martin and going to union military and start dancing with the union soldiers. and say they ran out to the stage and get information that way. they are devious people on both sides. >> frank/emma is my absolute

favorite. you're the favorite in the book like >> i like them all for different reasons. >> here is somebody who's not only having to pretend that she's a man, she's on the front lines. she's in the worse bloodiest battle in she also has a really excruciating personal story. there's a situation where she falls in love with a fellow union soldier and has to make the choices do i suffer in silence? i love this man. i suffer in silence or tell them what i really am quiet >> they were very close. i just really appreciated her strength invulnerability fair. >> one of the things when i came across that part in abbott spoke, i got curious about the concept of women dressing as men to enlist in the army and civil war and she was not the only one. were you surprised to learn that

quite >> yes, it was surprising to research. there were an estimated 400 women to disguise themselves as men and saw both in the north and south. it is fascinating how they got away with it. i came to the conclusion the biggest way they got away with it was because no one knew what a woman would look like wearing pants. they were so used to seeing bodies pushed and pulled into these exaggerated shapes. the very idea of a woman wearing pants, let alone an entire army was so unfathomable that people are just like no, that can't be a woman. so that was one of the things that really aided the other women who did that enlisted soldiers. >> so i talked about how they're different and they offer these different days. what do you think these four particular characters, what do they have in common? >> i think they all put together, all of these women,

not just before, but have been involved in the civil war, it was the first time that women took this sort of role publicly. there were women revolutionary war spies, but they were very discreet. with this, it was the first time women made for their business and did so publicly. you know, when members of the dems of war, not perpetrators. it was the first time in american history where women stepped forward and said this is my allegiance. this is what i'm doing and i'm proud of it and i'll do it again. rebel women again, openly defying the northern government saying i am a viable woman and i will fight to the death for my cause. the union government had no idea what to do with it. there is a great quote from one link in official and he said what are we going to do at these

fashionable women size? it was a conundrum and it followed the breath of war. it was the first time women really needed that. >> one of the great things about these errors is that the research you have done, they are incredibly fleshed out. they are not perfect. they are not perfect. they have flaws. a couple of them have fairly despicable views to deal with. there's a lot of hate air. there's a lot of sadness. but the choices made to show them -- to show all of them, and all. talk about why you decided to do that and why is it not there it was important for you to include all of those that ask for these characters. >> there were products of their time. they were as true to them if they were. in particular and atrocious

ratios and said very mild angst about african-americans. i sour she was coming from has been a product of her time. sad to have a very loving relationship at the rose waves as much as you can in that situation. the rose did not have that sort of the same affinity for the women who have served her. i do think it is boiled down to the difficult upbringing she had in recent years and not only that, but her back down. you find out a little bit in the book and i found this later on their process father, when she was four years old and that really fueled the hatred and something that followed her and shake her throughout her life. >> these women, all of them come you talked about this is the first time in history that they kind of stood up and said this is our war, too. we are willing to fight.

they were taking incredible risks. in a way, you could almost argue greater risk of mmn if only because they were doing some rain that was not expected at all from a gender in that time. how w-whiskey was that what they were doing quite >> it was incredibly risky. rose fuster 8-year-old daughter in espionage message, which is something really astonishing and only prove how devoted she was to the cause. emma admin was of course living with the threat is being discovered. she went undercover quite a few times. the risk of being discovered. she would hear more stories about women soldiers being discovered. i have a couple favorites of that variety. one was that a woman started putting them on over her head. and another -- there is a couple

in new jersey who gave birth while she was on picket duty. so the jig was up there. last night -- [laughter] not only was she worried about getting caught and captured from what happens to emma later in the, but getting codicil women. and of course suffering death threats every day in confederate detect and spying on her. these are the women who really believed they were going to be hanged if they were -- they even wrote that in their diary. i'm going to be shot at the gala is anybody finds this. >> there was an element of the trail in a sense of what they were doing. emma/frank was betraying everything associated with what it meant to be a good soldier. we were supposed to be a man.

anyone who operates as a spy is always in a position where they can be viewed as someone who is featuring constant is. they did suffer consequences. it did not go smoothly for these four women all the time. any talk of little bit about the consequences -- the unfortunate consequences they suffer? >> as i said earlier, the unique government did not always know what to do with that. they were elected to make the rebel women into confederate martyrs. they got. they thought that would only exacerbate conditions when they were trying to qualify valley and and also complications with era. the federal government is putting in getting recognized legitimacy in the union government did recognize to addle another wrinkle. they didn't quite know what to do with it or women in what they might have hanged them and certainly their behavior would have warranted hanging. they threw them in the prison and tortured them in the best way they knew how.

belarus had quite different experience in prison and that was due to the different levels of other union officials to them in their threat. was greenhouse definitely suffered in prison quite a bit and had a difficult time and came quite near-death on a couple occasions. >> what was the style of treatment or rose versus substitute for example quite >> i found this quite hilarious. the union officials tortured her. >> she is well known by then. >> she is well known. this was not some anonymous woman who was fighting. >> i should back up a minute and discuss what made rose so well known. what got her into prison? rose, after she formed her spyware and in july of 1861 and the first battle of bull run, which is an enormous battle. everyone predicting this was going to be the end of the war.

they thought we are going to capture them at bull run mumbles onto richmond and it wasn't going to be over. the confederates had different plans. various official and gathering the information. the woman named benny duval sits her down in her dresser and rosen ciphers a note and has a piece of black silk and she ties up this note and rolls it up into daddy's hair and makes a neat little bun and kids batty address and says -- exactly. i have so many dispatches in my hair right now. >> she's leaving you on a very important mission. she tells batty to pretend you're a simple farm girl passing from the market. they won't even notice you. sure enough, that he passes a law, ways to this law, ways to this entry is amazing what a pretty girl. and she goes to headquarters,

lets down her luxurious mane of hair and produces this note that rose had enciphered and therein contained very important information for the first battle at bull run which aided the confederates in the surprising victory. so after this, you can imagine, i should say detective allen tinkers then on the case gets on and she becomes public enemy number one for the union tiered >> i like you mentioned pinkerton heard one of the things that is interesting is you do have all of these other characters and from history that enter into the story. pinkerton is one. what are some others? >> pinkerton was the main one. i was surprised about his involvement. here is somebody contacted by the union army to do secret service work and has this big of an ego as anybody. here is somebody just as interested in advancing his own personality and old entries and

pinkerton becomes focused on rose. this is public enemy number one and that they sneak out of rose. there is one scene where is it torrential downpour and it goes out to rose's home in d.c. she always like liked to say or how was the rightful distance of the white house. she called lincoln, too. and rightful distance of. she stands on the detected soldiers, looks into rose's windows and what is easy about rose and it triggers rose and a traders using cabinet sitting on a couch, looking over fortifications and not and they start passionately making out. egerton is enraged. he can't believe this traitorous union captain is giving all these trade secrets to rose greenhouse. and that is that. pretend those ratepayer. >> were talking about the young woman in the spy ring who has

this elaborate -- she's hiding note in her hair. one of my favorite things about half its focus all the different ways they had been no. just give us a couple of the favorite ones. >> definitely the hair. the women of course had elaborate hairdos. but there were many cartoons that celebrated confederate women a particular. their ability to smuggle things across the line. crinoline, if anybody doesn't know is this rigid case like structure that stretches the day in under six feet. imagine the things you could attach to this. people attached coffee, savers, pistols, silk, boots and several pairs of boots at a time. belle was kind of the queen of smuggling. there was a report that they were missing 14 muscat and about 200 savers.

so that was quite an enterprise. last mac >> to hear you are. you're a pennsylvania girl living in atlanta who sees a jefferson davis bumper sticker and ends up in this role of the civil war. what was your view or your experience with civil war history prior to working on this book? >> nothing. absolutely nothing. i appreciated that because i came to it not expecting to find anything and not knowing what i would find and was quite pleased and fascinated by what i did find, especially the way women's roles changed and the way the war changed women's roles. >> eufaula nongraphical of research when you do nonfiction. one of those rabbit holes of research -- i've probably wasted

a good it is time finding out about how courtship change during the civil war. >> how did they change? >> well, i will tell you. prior to the civil war in the antebellum years, it was quite a record is processed for a marriage to have been to a perspective would require introduction, a formal letter of introduction from a cousin who has a perfect feed and whatnot. >> always a selling point. in the letter of introduction, meaning the parents, neighbors and acquaintances, the formal process at the last three years before you could think about being engaged and then moving on to marriage. but after the war, all of that changed. southern parents had to loosen the rules. the women that gave them a

newfound freedom, but also more likely of heartbreak and build relationships. they would have to confederate camps than before they have the letters of introduction. now they were going off with men whose names they didn't even know and getting their hands can stand being serenaded analyses scandalous behaviors that would not barhopping before the war. of course women only ended to flirting in their diaries, but a lot more intimacy and after the war, and they didn't have expectations i'll be an old maid it doesn't matter to me. they did not expect to carry on the tradition of mothers and grandmothers. >> you started sort you started sorted with a blank slate with this. how does your views about this moment in history sort of

evolved as he went to interest our you went interest or researched her writing quiet >> one of the most startling aspect was gratifying and how women could come you know, you would think of women as the weaker sex. they exploited the idea of women being gentle and sort of slow and not educated and weaker and genteel. gender was hiding everything in their bonds and hoop skirts, it was also and hide behind with regards to the idea that women were not capable of this sort of treasonous behavior. her were some great games where detectives would accuse the women in state you are in league with the enemy and the women's immediate responses women's immediate responses how dare you? how dare you accuse me of such behavior? it is beneath the conduct of the

officer and a gentleman and i am a defenseless woman and you're insulting a defenseless woman. adding a mac [laughter] >> yes and i will shoot you right now. i sat there able to exploit the notions of the weaker was quite really am. >> you've often written about these intrepid, often on women and their votes and significant moments in history. he started out in journalism. did you always want to write about women? is that something you kind of fell into? >> i kind of fell into it. my grandmother adjustor 96 always tells me the dirtiest stories i know. [laughter] she is the one who not only led me to a 19th century brothel, but the most famous stripper of the 20th century. when you think of the word averitt, you always think of men. you think of male characters. you think of james dean, malcolm

x, the late james garner. that is sort my own. >> how would you compare this to your former books, which were also about maverick? >> you know, they all have one theme. i like to write about women whose lives i wish i lived. i am jealous of all of them. the next best thing is to set up my computer and dig into their psyches and tap away and prod and poke until they start speaking. >> when you talk about the product of the poking and research and going down the rabbit hole, do you find when you work you have just phases to the process right now i am researching and now i'm going to write or add a version you have overlap is how you operate? is the process better than this

book in the prior two books? >> you probably agree with me being a journalist yourself. i have to research and write at the same time. i know plenty of doctors who have to do all the research first and make gather and board. i would research happily for 10 years and not write a word. i would research for the rest of my life and never right. but that will get you in trouble with your editor. so i think it is a function of journalism where i have two right and research at the same time and also to help you figure out what is vital and important to the story. you go in research, but allow yourself to pull back and say that's interesting, but i can't spend the next four months on that unfortunately. >> you do such a great job of capturing their voices. what kind of resources did you come across in all this while you were in the radical cleric >> you know, i kind of went all over for this one.

i went to the national archives. you know, the black silk i mentioned earlier, death of the national archives and i was able to hold that in my hand. you just know the confederate spies have held this 150 years earlier. same thing with elizabeth at the new york public library. i found some of her death threats. one of them said please give us some of your blood to write with. yeah, you can imagine -- [inaudible] >> how chilling i must have been for her. i was chilled at how many years later. i often spoke with the descendents of one of her brothers -- of her brother and he gave me some information about her ring that had never been told before, published before, so that was pretty thrilling. i spent quite a bit of time every enactments. >> talk a little bit about that. the question would, because

through tree and three spoke in a curiosity, is bonded me. the cross-dressers and both jim mares were not unusual. did you ever encounter anyone at these reenactments who is that woman eating a man or a man be in a woman's? women have to type or the right to reenact a man. but they redoing it -- apparently was not immediately accepted the appointment reenactors could dress as men and fight as men. they wanted to play the traditional roles in these women were like now, we want to be the women's oldsters. so there was a movement afoot for that to happen. so that was pretty interesting. i'm also the anachronism. i went to see the first battle of bull run reenactments in july

of 2011. there was a man there with his 10-year-old son and the man says to him by hey, look there is still by the power lines. [laughter] so you've got a lot of that. >> grab your iphone, take a picture. of course, of course. so abbott's book is so compelling. it is such a great read. it reads like fiction. so let's talk about the f. word, fiction. is this something you ever something you maverick theater doing? this is such a huge part of what you have done for so long now. is this something you think about? >> for the next book, maybe. definitely not this one.

50 pages of notes and i spent five years researching this book. you know, i talk a little bit about the civil war is in the memoirs seem to me, it was important to me that fighting out instances in the narrative and to me it is just as important with people in dallas and what they leave out as what they did in a way. i met the person as much as possible and also the bits of a blowup. i explain why they embellish them. it's important to me to expand on that. it's something about their psyches and their role in the war. it is part of their story. it is just as legitimate in a way as the official records of the war, the rebellion, which i also consulted extensively. those memoirs are a very smart part of the large body of research that i was lucky enough

to affect us too for a book like this. >> well, it comes together so terrifically. we have time for some question for abbott. does anybody have any questions? yes. >> at the united about the southern matriarch, and done she think that also -- it's more of a comment i guess. maybe you can comment upon it. but then are so prevalent compared to other writing. that has to be a product of the war as well. maybe, i don't know. >> at. >> i think that's probably true. the whole man's view of the women changed a year after the war. even some of the spies started moving towards women's suffrage. they just change the entire landscape of how they view their

world. as he asserted influenced everything include name literature and the like. >> a lot of women writers i think, especially in the modern movement. the fact interesting point. >> thank you. >> come in the process you came up with for the title. >> that is a great title. >> it was pretty torturous. some of my writer friends can attest that would send out e-mail saying this is a period no, that is not the title. i think that in the end we wanted something that try to tap the late all for women on something they all were and also something recognizable and also play on a very manly book, a very manly movie and i love john mcrae and i just want to sort of tweet that a little bit confuse

it with the women's perspective and just sort of say that this is the kind of story. the night you are the publisher who slashed out the title is self. >> i sent many e-mails to my editor and he ignored them. i was trying desperately to, poised hawthorne. hopper cover the were quite extensively and i thought these were great snippets from the writers. it's not working. so finally we came up with a. >> i have a reading request. can you read us the description that you did at stonewall

jackson? page 138. >> it is on page 138? we have a request for abbott's description of stonewall jackson. age 138. >> i will remind people that they people that they face up to love, her imagined love. she spends quite a bit of time. i don't think her feet were as pretty as her. stonewall jackson had just turned 30 acres sold and what some said more scarecrow than human with eerily bright blue eyes and amid the brown massive beard. his preferred uniform consisted of a single coat, left over from the service, a broken visor and a tear for the size for a fee. his worst day of the home everyone else called little

seurat fled only 15 ties and jackson wrote him to avoid dragging them on the grounds. he spoke seldom and almost never last year and on the rare occasions when he did come he talks about his head and made no sound whatsoever. once an injured northerner captured by jackson's men asked to be lifted out to catch a glimpse of the general, he stared for a moment and then in disbelief and disgust exclaimed, oh my god, lay me down. jackson was as idiosyncratic as he was human. the hobbits for a hypochondria became the legendary skill on the battlefield. he's often seen as being out of balance and would even stop to raise one arm, waiting for the blood to wash down his body and establishing. refuse to be pepper because it made his left leg weak. often they are difficult for him to detect artillery fire or determine the direction from

which it came. convinced that everyone of his organs was malfunctioning to some extent, he self medicated with a variety of concoction inhalant glycerin and silver nitrate and ingesting a number of obliteration. twice a day, rain or shine, jackson found a secluded field. he purchased and prayed for an hour, hands crossed on my face turned upward, tears filling, mouth forming voiceless words. words that may or may not have had something to do with the recurring ear he had possessed. he was really didn't even to read a letter from his wife who he called my little dove. on sundays he forbade profanities, alcohol although he considered himself a genuine artist admirer of true womanhood said to never pass a lady without tipping his trial. he was utterly unfazed. he would have at the drop of the

house when confederate declared and he would drop himself. he ordered the execution of a firing squad of a soldier, a father of four for assaulting a man of higher rank. the general sound as he always did gods well matched up with the sound. during one battle and part sharply about a missing courier and was told the young man had been killed. very commendable jackson muttered soberly and put the matter out of his mind. >> i love that. [applause] >> as i said, that is my boyfriend. >> it is interesting to me how these myths and personas about these individuals built up and not particular time in history. what role did the media play in this work? and revolutionary time and after the revolutionary war, about taking on the u.s. constitution,

the newspapers were very opinionated. i mean, no one even pretended to try and be objective. we are on the side, that site. what role did the newspapers play in the development of the legend of so i >> i think first and foremost the duty was to convince everybody they were the ones by name. they put out propaganda that their side was winning. every battle had different numbers according to the north end according to the south. that was first and foremost what they wanted everyone to think. and then they would move to the personalities. belle got quite a bit of press the yes out she was a hero. she might've been a strange and accent it, but she was a hero. she was an accomplished. this is a 17-year-old girl. she was somebody laundering

through the camps and said we have no idea why they let her wander through our camps and no doubt she's doing a lot of damage. that people would read these reports and said she was still wander throughout the can i think one of the greatest pieces of propaganda there was a lot of report the barbarism of the confederates, how brutal they were, how barbaric. reports about people -- women were jewelry made of yankee bones and necklaces and all these sorts of things. the confederates and southerners were very angry. the union had been starving for the supply for their blockade, the business we discussed earlier. it was sort of the idea that these people were so brutal. there was a little bit of truth to some of it. there were women wearing yankee jewelry, but it was all exaggerated mostly image size played for the best effect and

was also constantly in mind of what europe was thinking i was watching the newspapers and they were very careful. so that is always in the back of our minds, too. >> so interesting. do we have any other questions? no? >> okay yes, glenn. >> which, for whatever reason -- [inaudible] >> i don't know about influence. >> had the most impact in one way or another. >> you know, i really appreciate when she went to europe, and she was to lobby for the confederacy and she wrote quite a bit about her journeys commending his european dignitaries and royalty including napoleon the first. you can imagine this woman who had never before been to europe

and so does lobbying on behalf of her country is sort of a last gasp effort. and it was interesting to read about her frustration of the process. she wrote my meeting with napoleon was. these people were stupid appeared all the women were and ugly compared to me. it was sort of this glimpse into her psyche where here is this dignified woman who presented a very regal picture and was always business, always serious and always had her goal in mind. she was clearly falling apart. she was somebody who was not her own personal -- it matters to her and it was falling through your hands and to read her words about it boils down to something like this is stupid.

it just made it universal. everybody has a thought that sent the next stupid and delicious sort of interesting to find that was her last commentary on that. the mac is meant so much to her. one of the great danes about abbott's book is that really does come across how much conflict this meant in each one of these errors. thank you for being with that. [applause] >> greatness and the presidency is prayer.

greatness in any dimension of the human enterprise is rare. i use the term rate maybe 15 times a day. great movie, great tennis player, have a great day. but we don't really understand what it is. we had emptied it. we have emptied the notion of rate as have any meaning of content and we transferred our appreciation for greatness from our political class because we haven't seen it. to our entertainers, to our athletes and two are actors. there we appreciate greatness and there we can easily have relationships. we buy tickets. they may be expensive. these people never disappoint or rarely disappoint. it is in our political class however that we can't appreciate greatness because in many respects it is gone. it is gone because it is driven by three factors that have to a that have to align like the sun,

the moon and the stars in the right astrological formation. unique crisis. and by the way, not just a garden-variety crisis. unique crisis of the nation encumbering character. unique character. you need the right individual with the right internal makeup in the right orientation public. and then unique capacity. does this person actually know what they're doing? and can they do at the cabinet, congress, the media? can they make washington work? those three, crisis, character and capacity are what has made our three undeniably greatest presidents grave. washington, lincoln and fdr. a half-dozen others, maybe five, including one of the favorite here, thomas jefferson, andrew jackson, teddy roosevelt, woodrow wilson arguably. i work at the woodrow wilson international center for

scholars. the memorial to a 20th president, roman phd president number one area in washington d.c. must be on the list. harry truman in a clearly consequential. three undeniable, the five close but no cigar president. and three others. i choose to identify jack kennedy, landon johnson and ronald reagan as exhibiting greatness is real or perceived. that is 11 presidents out of 44, bush 43 different presidents because grover cleveland was president twice in 19 aikido terms and we've had 43 different presidents, 11 of whom in my judgment have been truly consequential. the point of the book is, and it is provocative, we don't want another great president because the founders created the political system, which was designed to disaggregate power.

they fear the governor, the king. they may have. amounts as well. they feared an energetic executive, but unaccountable one highly constrained. the only thing that liberates presidents and the political system when i talk about nation and governing crisis, not even the cube will crisis or 9/11 to encourage the nation but it turned quite the other way. i'm talking about a crisis that is not less, inescapable, hot, in which everybody has to essentially participate. ..

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