ms. rebecca frankel is in conversation with james fallows. this is just over an hour. >> hi, everyone. for those of you who have been here before, before, this introduction will seem more personal than usual because i am lucky enough to call rebecca frankel a close friend. now, seven years ago i was approaching two years into my first job here at dc. i would call my mom crying at least twice a week

distraught in the way that only an entitled millennial can be about drowning in administrative work. when i felt like it could not get any worse and there were only two other people on staff she called her contacts and asked if they knew anyone who would be a good fit. one of the people she called was becky. at the time, i was just a kid kid sister of one of her friends. there is no way to ever pay her back for ushering in one of the most interesting and fulfilling phases of my life when she delicately broached the subject because her intelligence is only rivaled by her humility, i remember

thinking, you got me my job here. do you want to events? i can say that the loan, care, compassion, and respect is the same approach she took in researching and writing "war dogs." reviews have been phenomenal truly wonderful, inspirational, and moving. writing since 2010. this book has been a labor of love for her in which she has immersed herself fully. it took her around the country and by phone and in person into the homes of soldiers and their families who have experienced the

current incredible impact. tonight, becky will be in correspondence with james fallows. the founding chairman of the new america foundation. he served as the editor of u.s. news & world report. back in april there was a fascinating event about his project through which he and his wife have been exploring america's heartland. there will be time to ask questions. please lineup at the microphone. then we we will have a book signing. it is my sincere pleasure to welcome you. please join me in giving a warm welcome.

[applauding] >> thank you so much for coming out this evening. i could not be more delighted. i have known her over eight or nine years now and have watched her development. i am predisposed to like this book. it is really a great book. jonathan yardley gave it such high complements. a human story as well as a canine story, a scientific story, love. it really is an excellent book. i am glad to have a chance to ask some questions.

i thought i turned this damn thing off. [laughter] i will call you back later. i am interviewing rebecca frankel. modern technology. so let me start, it is not what i would have expected when they were raising you, that you would be out there. how did you end up writing this kind of book? >> more dogs than military. he has been writing the best defense. as i got to no him i got to no how much he likes dogs.

he has two very small dogs. as we became friendlier -- sorry. even a very powerful microphone can't help me. anyway, we stored -- to five we started to bond over dogs i found this photograph. it struck me as different and surprising, not just because they were happy but they were hanging out with dogs. they just looked very, very happy. i started to dig into this topic. >> not just a standalone article, but the kind of attention. >> tom will probably tell you, may 2011.

this little bit of news, the dark name. i put together a photo essay they put it up online. i did things a little backwards. >> i read this book quickly. i have been through it again as a way of introducing one part of your story, let me read how becky introduces the idea of dogs following sent. imagine a leaf. at first at first it spins and lazy circles around and around. then it picks up speed and travels further and faster than you thought possible.

this is the prerogative of the wind. explain why you are giving us the story. >> to show how it travels and moves. i guess it's something we don't think about. when i was out in the desert in particular, this was important to the training. they had to not only watch their dogs but the wind. it's a very similar thing. >> i understood this to be saying the leaf is a metaphor. you describe with wonderful detail why dogs are so good at this. the kind of things that dogs

can do. >> the imprint sent in a much more complicated and layered way. this is,, they call it a stew or hamburger. the dogs are smelling all of the ingredients. this becomes important. the composition will never be exactly the same. the good thing about a dog, when they smell a particular odor, debt cord, duct tape, but something they recognize, they we will alert. it does not need to be the complete sent. >> the mixture of nature and nurture.

>> i think as a species they are uniquely talented. just because they are born with the ability does not mean that they are adept at using them. they become frightened or uncomfortable. even though they have this ability, it is not easy to put the task. >> another aspect of your book that i enjoyed, the history that you tell of the way that dogs and human beings, but tell us about how dogs have been involved in warfare and what is different now.

>> probably on battlefields as long as humans have. evidence to suggest they used them to guard their citadels. certainly in world war i, employed them. messenger dogs. what they were able to do was to navigate this very difficult and very open stretches of terrain where humans could not travel easily or quickly. dogs could carry them twice as quickly. able to navigate things. never swayed.

very loyal in that respect. in vietnam they were used again. scout dogs primarily. give warning for things coming up. you have a dog, sitting at home. what's actually going on. it's a very similar thing. >> the kind of wars where it is mainly this irregular combat, take us through how a dog's first trained for that kind of duty. how he actually does his or her work. >> they get trained differently.

>> you say that without a little mental pause. >> they do stay his dog training school. different home stations and deploy from there. and so some of these will go through pre- deployment training. very grateful on there behalf. the area here. a dog stationed in new jersey is going to need adjustment when they go to afghanistan. a very intensive.

three weeks goes by fast. not as advanced. always a difference. they learn to train for explosives, do daytime tactical training. that involves the handlers help. handlers have to be prepared to carry their dogs. some of them are women. it's a lot to get used to.

>> do some dogs washout in training? >> they do. it becomes clear very quickly. so for some of them it's a matter of life gunfire. the difference is kind of acute. it's not going to register the deep shock of having a mortar exploded feet from them. >> and you talk about a certain breed of dogs. tell us about the ones that end up doing this work.

>> the military employs german shepherds. the training for patrol, the dog comes in handy. but there is an incredibly high work drive. i drove from one training exercise to another. he did not sit still. moving moving and barking and could not settle down. that's something they like to see. very high aggression and very high energy. >> we heard yesterday about yet another fence jumper at the white house.

presumably they had bike training. tell us how it works. >> the handler and the dog have to learn and become accustomed to chasing down a suspect. you want to get them to be comfortable biting in particular places where they had the advantage of there weight and momentum, presumably someone who is running away. so it is very big and bulky. a protective layer. even though i was wearing one when i was doing this exercise.

once you say yes you kind of can't say, i changed my mind. the dog knows what it means. then they let the dog go. and it hurts. i was not wearing the thickest one, but, but i was not expecting to feel what i felt. i was pretty sure i would have to go to the hospital and get stitches. >> to then argue over. >> personally, we were not in a very big space. i was wearing so much equipment that i could not run.

>> operational things. the part of the book that was most compelling, essentially the moral element. our beloved cat got adopted. he could not have had -- and the fact that you were so loving impressed me, but also this is a book about character and love and qualities and bravery and loyalty and daring. tell us about the handlers. they're. they are not supposed to love them. are they are they different from other people in uniform?

>> well, they consider themselves to be a little bit of part from the military in general. protective of what they do. because it took a while, at least in this iteration they came and originally in small numbers. not everyone appreciated why they were their. so naturally defensive. also worried about outsiders perceiving what they do to be abuse which i never saw. a lot of people disagree with the idea of using animals. i think gets defensive in that way.

troublemakers, troublemakers, i think. but they have to be a little bit more adventurous. a lot of them were what you might call thrill seekers, but whether or not they wanted to admit it or talk about it, they were very sensitive, emotionally intelligent people to be able to have this kind of relationship with an animal that cannot communicate in words but to get them to do the things that they were doing and earn there trust and loyalty. that is such a big part. i think it is really about bonding and trust. >> most of these people, were they pre-existing

animal people? >> yes, most of them were. were. and most of them from a very young age. and most of them trained with animals. one of them i got to no very well. he knew when he was five years old, something in the community, an officer found cocaine in the bag. he said he knew right then. he was surprised. >> during the time of training areas of the most intense kind of relationship stories of soldiers who are sheltering their dogs. then they have to separate.

the dogs don't go home with these people they were living with. >> police units operate very differently. they train with the dog for life. the dog lives with them. unless something unless something happens they are together always while they are working. the dog is always assigned to a home station. handlers will come in and out. it's just a part of military life. and i think it was hard on them when they have to transition out, not that they are leaving them behind, but they have to move onto something else. and it is very hard to be promoted because their are only so many levels were tears. you can be a handler, a trainer, and then you kind of hit a ceiling.

you become in charge of an operation. a lot of them say that was also the saddest day of there life. just really resented that he had to give up handling one dog. >> from the dog's.of view, all dogs get old. some melt from the stress. what happens? >> depending on whether or not it is from an injury or they just reached the age, that is what happens. there is now a rigorous process in place.

especially because now there is lot more public attention , which is good. they get evaluated by a an behaviorist to make sure they are suitable animals to live in a house with people and that they would be fine with adults. and usually there is a long line of handlers who are right their ready and anxious. sometimes it becomes difficult to gauge which handler should get the dog. >> you talk about the program relatively recently of having retired dogs with soldiers suffering from posttraumatic stress disorder. i wanted to read another passage to set this up.

had been doing some of this counseling for soldiers who were in trouble. a total of 18 months serving through two deployments back to back. started to see a change, never the kind of dog who relished being the center of the crowd. but after nearly 15 months,, she noticed that when soldiers approached she turned away. the the only time she seemed happy when she was free. she did not want to engage anymore. she had absorbed too much sadness. tell us about that. >> actually a unique dog, part of an experimental program with a nonprofit

group and does wonderful things, they provide service and therapy dogs for veterans who have problems other coping with coming back or physical impairment. part of a program that paired therapy dogs with combat therapists. they both have combat training. and so actually a remarkable person. we talked a a lot, and i have a lot of respect for her. the differences that have been actually made. deployed during a particularly nasty time. sometimes very small differences.

a lot of treats. gaining weight. there had actually been a soldier who had also gained a little bit of weight. he started to take her out for runs. it can be something like that, or she describes that they would not break down to her, but she would let them be. she said that it was just too much. what that said to me was very powerful. a lot of bad things happen. for her to be a sponge and turned away from people, to have had enough is a remarkable statement on what it must be like out there. >> i will preface this

question that i i have not been a dog person. my personality gravitates more toward cats and dogs. however, having said that, this i found, again, really moving. if we were talking about people we would describe as bravery and loyalty and love. obviously, we are talking about animals, but tell us what you were trying to say about these traits. you think we should understand them. >> well, i i don't know. it does not seem that hard to me. but i think that there is something particularly moving.

and almost naked way, which way, which is how dogs are. there is no condition. ..

>> >> i was always a little bit nervous. i never had the quite letter

and i was unprepared but no matter how nervous i was as soon as we started to talk about the dogs everything was very easy and simple. so for me see i started to understand better that talking about war forged at pathe talking about more complicated things. to talk about what it was like to lose a friend. and i found so with that topic for a country that had been at war for so many years people were sick about caring about suicide bombers.

and then always interested to talk about dogs and a natural way to carry on a conversation. >> host: to follow up a point, you are a petite woman from a bookish background not in the military talking to these dog handlers. [laughter] what was the cultural pluses and minuses to except to? [laughter] >> maybe there were not quite sure what to make of me. and that is the increasing for the connections early on.

and i do understand that they have a job to do. and a better research and christopher knight if you don't know him well he is an intimidating presence in every single way of though word. he said you can come. i said when? he said i would get back to. i'll let him know i had arrived he gave me very to the point directions it was clear he would not repeat them. two hours in the dark of 330 in the morning in the middle of the arizona of the desert with no signs anywhere. he told me turn left at the job site the you cannot see

that in the dark you only know is a the daytime people of parachuting. [laughter] so after he gave me those directions he asked me what cell phone service i had a. [laughter] he said he will not get reception out here. good luck and hung up. [laughter] then i got there they can asking me if i want to go back to my hotel. is that time for me to go? they said no we just that you would want to leave already. so i kept asking. [laughter] >> host: have you been to events on military bases? >> you will i'm sure. in the next couple of minutes, to the microphone.

you spend a lot of your life with animals. what you think differently about the animal world now? >> it is a much more interesting place and makes me excited to learn more about this topic. the things that i did not know or what we take for granted if we have animals in our life they know what's out mean-spirited is remarkable career able to communicate with them in that way.

but people are doing wonderful steadies' right now and how they communicate we registered more emotion on one side of our faces of the wild plants left. they have done i tracking studies. and dogs do the same thing. you can track their eyes and consistently glantz not only the gestures are the toast of the voice that actually looking to clean context which i think is fascinating. there is the study done by this woman she was working with her champs and under

one of the cups she tried to show where the food was it is sheer. she would point the chimp was looking over here or one place and could not care less if someone was giving her the information. but then flashing to the next study this saved exact experiment the edo of the moment she comes in and he tracks her face. and she says liquid it is here. he could smell it. [laughter] but i think i find it fascinating. >> host: you can resolve that timeless question on the far side with one side take the dog for a walk then

the dog said blah, blah, blah gretchen. what is closer to the truce? and the understand or they smelled of food? >> there is sin article of of border collie who knows over 300 commands. but i would think to understand what we say. >> host: asking differently from the animal world. what about the way it is in the west now? >> one question to ask over

andover but i wanted to understand everything as much as i couldn't always asking why. why are there of a deployment training? i will be honest. was not confident every can dollar or not as ready as i wanted them to be going with a we're going. they were incredibly dedicated and devoted. and they take it very seriously so they get the best trading possible but who made that decision? why isn't it for weeks or five weeks? why don't they all know how to use night vision goggles?

there was never a very good dancer. my feeling now is so big things are important turnout well-managed. it is not something i understood in this context. these are really young kids to are going out there. >> this is a gross generalization but the people using cantor in the military that were involved involved, did they feel this us store proud? letter the feelings of those going back and forth from iraq to afghanistan?

>> i don't know. this makes the eight agree what is going on or that people don't understand especially those who have seen a hard to are. those have been to iraq three times they have been four times. some of them had experienced of an easy to work and they feel people don't know what is going on and are not invested. they also feel that they are not supportive to put it delicately there is a lot of

the venom in danger. they did not feel welcome. so i've learned a lot to into more sensitive to the military. that we are very distant from this experience. i cannot say i new friends or family only one is applying to the combat zone sometimes it is to our three kids. >> please come up to the microphone i will ask you a transition question. these are muslim countries have a did that cultural interface affect the dog

handlers? >> to have a very out-of-control stray dog population and it is very dangerous it is dangerous to the dogs of they're out on patrol seven is very different. but it is whatever keeps their dogs i know some shoots a stray dogs to protect their dogs. no remorse there. but one i story about the dog that was their for their pay -- sarah p. but in providing service to anyone who needs it. but if they are wounded and

they will take care of them and one little girl whose parents were surgeons and she was shot it is terrible the issue was a recovery for many months. and then do that's she was worried the dog would scare her said she would stay away but the nurses said parade her by. they said she has been making little dogs out of play-doh. and then to do tricks to make her happy. then when she recuperates it was one of the nicer stories that i heard.

>> please come up to the microphone. >> identify yourself. >> i am active duty veterinarian for the military. i have a question about the language. i am curious if you have encountered why dutch is a common language is of trading? >> i don't know exactly why but my guess is a lot of these are procured from other countries from the czech republic and not so much from germany the some the handlers are channels

deal is the language they were trained on. >> and then to spend time and then with the of language. >> who has another question? >> while waiting for somebody else did you ever feel if you placed a foot wrong dealing with the military? that you would really feel a flash? >> no. i don't think so actually before i started i.e. immelt, have all these questions it was probably

this long i am worried about confusing terminology just let me know what i should say he just said yourself. i thought things a lot. [laughter] but it was the best device possible. i may have made a mistake but they never made me feel like it. >> i have been stalking you on facebook. [laughter] with a conversation brewing are there other animals better okay? so it is happening. so i think it may be solved or horse?

>> courses have a long time. >> one of the most fascinating was ruled for one using all sorts of animals there's some wonderful books at the time they use carrier pigeons pigeons, dogs, camels, and then decided he was a much better companion. [laughter] but maybe valentine's maybe

the animal that still provides something from a better to develop a. >> how many dogs have been employed and how many actually died? and for you what is the dog handler mentality in holland? [laughter] explained that? [laughter] >> i have a lot of friends that our dutch. [laughter] so the dutch with their history are over represented in a good way.

with the national stereotypes. [laughter] one of my father's medical partners was famous for communicating do this. lose weight. and this is something i admirer about holland as a culture to the point. the only reason i don't like going to holland i feel like of midget. so i have many dutch friends [laughter] i say this to their face as a compliment. >> how many dogs? at the height there was about 2500. right now may be on the a couple of hundred.

that we have been our dog program. but the marines and the army has part of the dog's search that got the dog on the ground very quickly that there were not trained as dual purpose starts but protection dogs. so things are scaled back if not dismantled completely. so around all bases around the world the head of the program recently said maybe there were 1200 total? >> one of the things i was not able to do is find out the exact number. they do keep track of all

the dogs and a veterinary records. each branch does something different and there is not any mandate how they are killed or how they die. then the service stocks that there were many, and that veterinary and i got to know was stationed they have though all four dogs that were killed and photos of them. so i knew it was only for the year. that there is a lot said groups or former dog handlers keep track to send care packages and they put

up notices. they keep track of all the names and it was not as many as you would think. >> i am very excited to read this book. but i wonder the art of naming though war dog is different than a house dog? >> it is a little different. and as a breeding program beach litter is a signed a letter. the r litter born a few years ago so a lot of people

need to know that is out it is spelled. so sometimes those are gifted to the program so they give the names that have meaning. . .

the they technically own the dogs so they understand the military funds. one dog that i know of was donated to the kennels at the u.s. air force academy but they went so far out of regulations to get this doggie happened to be a good detection dog and the

kennel master fought to get him. that's the only story i've ever heard like that but they have a budget and the special forces budget is much bigger than others but it can cost up to $30,000. >> and when they deploy, are they there for 18 months or longer and how long are they actively used? do they age out? >> it depends on the dog in their career and what they experience. the dog is there as long as the handler unless something happens him and the dog returns to the unit and another handler takes over. so if the deployment is 12 months they have them for 12 months and that the deployment is six, its six. >> here she is only going to to have won two or? >> dogs deployed more often than their handlers do so handlers get a break between deployments. the dogs sometimes do not even

though one might argue it would make good sense that they should have a break. that there is i think a little bit of a break even if it's not the traditional period of time because they have to get assigned to a new handler and then they have to get in sync with each other and bond together for a while. thank you. >> as they go from handler to handler, how did the dogs handle back? how did the dogs adapt to having different handlers and do they respond on a consistent level or is there a variation? >> it depends but certainly i've heard stories about hardheaded dogs who like their previous handler and didn't want to listen to somebody nail. i interviewed one handler who took over a dog and unfortunately the handler was killed in afghanistan. i met him and the dog's name was serious. the new handler had known his former handler said he felt it was a badge of honor to take

over this dog for his friends. this is a very stubborn dog too much like his previous handler was very stubborn, an enormous young man. he was like 6 feet 4 inches and incredibly broad shouldered and this dog was equal to him and respect so he was not easy to get him to do new things. it took a long time but maybe like any relationship there's that movement -- moment when things click and you are sort of friends and then it gets better from there. >> we have time for one or two more questions. >> hi my name is jeff. i recall a television report from a state-of-the-art veterinary skye whose mission it was to not revalidate combat dogs. >> that happens. you can jump in anytime. i don't