because it means even people you hate you don't want closure on them so they can't change, so they won't be able to transform themselves, later down the line they will be better and we are made in the image of god and love that image as well. bobby georgann guy, a conservative catholic brother, we have been together almost eight nine years and all around the country. how can you spend time with robby george, he is deeply conservative but i have a deep love for the brother. we wrestle with the issues and he is -- we have the same love of enemies too. we wrestle the issues in that way. i had a dialogue with ronald reagan, try to end the dialog with ronald reagan because you have someone like that, magnificent freedom fighters who play a role even militant atheism, i think he is wrong on the got a question. that would be right across the board but they are my brothers and sisters and also for people i have deep disagreements with.

>> host: did you ever consider going into the seminary, being a baptist minister? >> host: no, benchmark of divine wisdom, i was not called to the priesthood. i am called to teach and do the best i can with my writing and lecturing before it is time to go. >> host: hold are you? >> guest: 61 years young. it is a blessing each year too. >> host: joanne from florida. >> caller: hello. hello? >> guest: how are you doing? >> caller: i am in florida near orlando. how are you guys? >> guest: we are blessed to hear you. >> host: as requested and make a comment. >> caller: diana high school english teacher and want you to talk to us about how to disagree

without being disagreeable. of course i am speaking specifically of those criticizing you or others who disagree with the president and from our tradition here or not being chastising the president, who are we to chastise those in authority? please speak to us about that and the importance of being able to verbally sustainable reasoned argument as well as be able to write in order to sustain the tradition of protests we have in our tradition, thank you. >> guest: a wonderful question. for me, i try, when you love people you hate that they are being treated unjustly. new hate deeds, you a acts, you hate policies but you can still keep track of these humanity of those who are promoting the

policies. i hate a lot of the policies of john boehner on the republican side of things. i think he is wrong on a lot of things and sometimes i discern the mean spiritedness. it doesn't mean i hate the brother. we have been in the same room together. that is true for black leaders as well but you have to be very honest and candid about why it is you loath these policies. they call into question people let's dignity, people live life of decency and so on. and the long history of that especially in the black tradition that this book is about. each of these figures brought tremendous critiques to bear on the status quo. frederick douglass called lincoln, proslavery president in the first inaugural. lincoln was promoting colonization of black people, lincoln changed his mind. lincoln is great because he grew. eric holder's great book reminds

us of that. harriet beecher stowe and the others put the pressure on but they hated the deed, they didn't hate brother abe, not at all. whistle on the white side of town, white supremacists sympathetically, he hated slavery and was open to prophetic voices but that is true in our time as well. often times like barack obama is too close to wall street and looks like a black puppets of wall street, talking about the president, is a puppet, clinton did this same thing. george bush did the same thing and i said the same thing. black president, don't say a word. al sharpton said we should never say one critical word about the black president. al sharpton loves you deeply, let tradition produce you, not to be critical of any form of

injustice no matter who it is or what, but you can do that by the policies and acknowledging the the greater who promote those policies. >> host: david gets the last word with cornell west. >> a pleasure, dr. west. i have a question about prominent black people over the last couple centuries and one woman i knew in particular still not burke. have you heard of her? >> guest: selma burke. >> caller: she is a sculptor from western pennsylvania. she has passed away now. the most popular item she has if you look at the roosevelt -- there's a picture of roosevelt in profile, she actually, he sat for her for that portrait. she did the portrait that ended up on the roosevelt dimes.

selma burke. i think you should look her up for a future book. some time. >> guest: let me ask you one quick question. a brother of just met from university of arkansas pine bluff gave me a magnificent portrait, sculpture representation of frederick douglass. his name was henry or something like that. a magnificent artist and, the same tradition as the sister you were just talking about. i told him i know so little about the history of blacks cultures and i need to know more. >> starting in the 20s, her husband in new york city for black rights and the 20s and accused of being communist. they were not but the communist party at that time was supported by black people in the 20s and

30s and from there in pittsburgh wishy was sort of a teacher for all the schools, all the schools. .. said teacher for all the schools to teach about sculpture she is worth looking into. selma burke. >> guest: and the top down underdog but she has the play on broadway it is called farmers return from the war. can it is an epic classic. she writes the music as well as the play. it is culture of character