creature. that's what politics is. we create a partisan dislike for the bad guys and sometimes it's true that i think that can really corrode your soul if it's not true, some i know the politics matters and i know that it's important. a big part of me wants to kind of keep it at arms length. and i'm a pretty -- my attitude is i'm never disappointed. but republicans and democrats, they think they are better than everybody else and they put their pants on one leg at a time. another question. >> i would like to know obviously this book struck you personally and i wondered how

this affected the way that you think in your life and the way that you conduct your life and think and if so, how? >> i invite in my book how long it was to read the book. i had to interview a colleague at the time that george mason. i was doing a podcast and it ended up being a six part series on the theory of the moral sentiment and when we proposed this idea i started reading it and after one page i put it back down and i thought i have no idea what he's talking about. not an easily read book but once i got into it i got excited and it did help me to see how other people see me seeing them. when you write a book about loveliness and there is pressure to be roughly.

it is an interesting experience. people have written to me about things that they have done not because they said that. so that's very gratifying. one is fabulous. if one person changed their behavior at all it would be a wonderful thing. so for me it's interesting. if i knew you better i could tell you about in front of but in front of my close personal friends, and i am going to tell you things that may be don't look so good. smith taps into the wisdom that is millennia old. i'm jewish and i found a lot of parallels. there are parallels between smith. as i say in my book that money

doesn't make you happy that isn't a new idea. the hard part is internalized and turned down by the the consulting opportunity that's lucrative because you realize it isn't a great argument to be putting forward. that is the challenge. when your friend says i fell down. i'm in the hospital. can you make me dinner and he watched the game you wanted to watch with the red sox. that's hard to do. if you do it all the time you are a saint. >> we want to have some time to sign some books upstairs and we also have a final presentation. and i also want to let you know you may have noticed an extra camera. we are being taped by c-span.

i will let you know as sure as i know our website. [applause] thank you. a small token of our appreciation on the department university for the wonderful hour. >> thanks for coming, folks. [applause] >> thank you all for joining us tonight. thank you. >> recounts her life in a

journalism career in conversation with biographer david as part of the wisconsin book festival held in madison. this is one hour and five minutes. >> thank you for being here tonight and not staying at home to watch the gubernatorial debate. [laughter] [applause] i'm delighted to welcome my friend. we've had some of the same ground over the years that she was famous long before that. she went to some of the most

exciting new york magazines for many decades now and the most famous book is ranked by the library of congress top books of the modern era and we are here tonight to talk about the latest book which as i understand those passages which is now the subtitle that i always struggle with the titles of books and that is the perfect title for this, so why don't you start by telling us what that means. >> thank you, david. i am thrilled to be here with my colleague. it is an honor to have such an illustrious interviewer. it took me three years to excavate my life for a memoir

and i use that curb intentionally because it is like digging between your ribs and some of it is painful and some of it is joyful. some of it is discovering or rediscovering people who were very important in my life who shaped me that i hadn't really thought about in a way so it makes me more and more thankful for the life that i've had in any case it wasn't until i nearly finished the book that i recognized the theme of my life and that was daring and it sort of surprised me. it's funny i don't think that we take time to sit down and put together the pieces of our lives and our multiple wives to charles david could try to draw some threads through it so i would recommend you write a memoir when you get into your 60s or 70s.

the daring is taking the less traveled road. it is perhaps giving a voice to people who don't have a voice and daring to speak up for them. it's when you are older and gray saying i'm still here. many different aspects. and what i'm trying to do with as i travel around the book is to excite women to be more daring particularly younger women and i have a website about that. it is called the daring project and i am inviting people and encouraging people to send their stories of a daring moment or a daring episode particularly when one is younger and it kind of catapult you i had to be more daring throughout the rest of your life.

>> one of my favorite characters in the book sets you on the road to being a daring writer. >> she lived with us and had been a very protective young woman living on the avenue and always being driven in the horse and carriage by her brother. and when she was widowed she went to work to learn how to drive, went to work every day the next 25 years and was a dynamo. she bought me my first typewriter when i was 7-years-old and it was thrilling to actually make that to make words. i don't think that it is even as much fun for kids when they get computers because they don't make any sound. with the typewriter really let you know you were putting something down on paper. so we lived in a suburb and in

westchester about 45 minutes from new york city. it used to listen on saturday morning tv show called grand central station. this grand central station and i couldn't wait to find out what were they like. it couldn't be anything like the boring people that lived in the suburbs. so one day i asked if she would keep my secret if i took a train to new york and went to grand central so she kept my secret and gave me the money and i was like nine or 10-years-old. my legs were too small to even reach the train so someone would have to give me a push. 45 and its later i went up the steps around the balcony looking down on the main terminal and then i would watch people and he would come together with a woman

with dark glasses and they would be secretly talking. to be. to be a. they would make up all kinds of stories to go with these fantastic people. i would take my bike and get home before dinner and nobody would know the difference and i would be sitting at my typewriter until the middle of the night. you arrived in new york city and in the newspaper world in 1953 when there was the telegram and the tribune i'm sure many people in this room have not heard of. and if the whole atmosphere has to be different from anything of

today. it's as you called it the estrogen zone. >> they were all very competitive and very good. i had been sort of exile to rochester with my first husband putting him through medical school. and when we got back to new york i couldn't wait to work for the herald tribune because that is where all of these wonderful journalists were working and it kind of journalism was coming out. so the only place i could get a job was in the women's department because i was a girl and they're one of the negroes in journalism at the time. well, i got tired of that after the first year and i snuck down the back stairs from the precincts of the women's department and crossed into enemy territory.

i was on a mission. he was incubating the new york magazine in the tribune and giving a different kind of journalism. if my editor knew i was taking my best story to another editor on the paper she would have thrown a fit. so i am walking across the room and i see these fingers on the typewriter and he was notorious for writing about the bail bondsmen with all kinds of exciting rules and then i would see tom wolfe with its long silky hair and i actually bumped into him in the elevator one. he said that the herald tribune is the main purpose competitive writers but you have to be brave. and i thought while i'm little

by brave so i refused to be deterred. the first thing i hear is the voice which was notorious. what do you mean you don't have my reservation? i was thinking i can't talk to this man. he has always famous people. so i got enough courage and i said come on in the. where did you come from, the estrogen zone? i knew that i had 30 seconds to sell my story. it's about these guys that want to attract the beautiful girls to sit on the beach blanket and

they are offering rent in their house and they want to attract other girls but stay with them and so they are having the specimen parties and they are viewing them. did you go to the specimen viewing party backs did it couldn't write it like you did for me. this was totally new. so i was thrilled in what we called the new journalism. tom wolfe was the leader and the new york magazine was the pay box. ..

>> >> yes. not all my daring episodes were smart and successful

this was particularly dumb. i had an inappropriate boyfriend. i just heard it college. he wanted to a local. -- e. loup so he came with a truck within extension ladder to my door and at night it was so exciting and so romantic and all the girls came to the window and i go down the ladder in high heels and falling into his arms. so fantastically romantic but by the time we reached the border i said i have to call my mom. [laughter] he was not happy i said i and the loping with the surgeon and she said a surgeon? is a mccarthy? yes. he is a tree surgeon. [laughter] i know.

sweetheart. we could have such a wonderful wedding in the backyard and we have friends who have the band and though you want to shop for a down together so just come home we will start planning and talk about it. so we drive home and on the way home i was reconsidering do want to be missing is a tree surgeon? by the time i got home i change my mind. and then we discarded mr. tree surgeon and went back to college but i had to call everyone and of my age professors to reignite the after the escapade. then i was so devoted to education and to realize how important it was that i

became a born-again virgin. [laughter] >> host: not too long after as a single mother didn't new york breezing a young daughter. that second story is amazing. >> guest: the marriage to the medical student blew up in my face when i was 28 he was having an affair he could not give up. so i had to leave the marriage. which in the '60s was not a popular thing to do and was not cool to be single mom the deal the way i could figure out out of that situation. i had a two 1/2 year-old daughter. after year to balance mom and working at the herald tribune had to quit my dream

job to work at home and be with her but who would take me seriously as a free-lance writer has the girl? i thought maybe i would have to take a job at macy's but i knew that flame would go out if i did that. so i sat down to write my first book which was the novel is thinly disguised story of the breakup of our marriages and it failed. so i decided i would just keep trying to write magazine articles a couple asked me to write on the basis of the book and that is how i got government money but the a writer forced me to put on the hot pants and the of hooker

boots man roamed the streets of new york with the off-duty police officer pretending to be my pimp to see what the world of violence prostitution was about which was set period kidney york that was keeping tourists away. that was the famous red pants cover and one of the most exciting stories i ever did and it was very exciting on the page, because you cannot follow dole life cycle of a street walker because first of all, they will not talk to you because they are afraid they will be killed by their pimp and second to they were parading up and down by the waldorf hotel on lexington. so either beating up on their johns or throwing acid

in their eyes or killing them. that is why i was reporting on. even julia was falling red pants and beautiful tall african-american girl that everyone admired but she would not talk to me and in the course of my reporting she was moved to the exile to new jersey where it was just low level mafia guys and i could not talk to her anymore so i had to piece together the rest of the story with other girls. and i used a composite character to get a whole life cycle. but when it was published

that paragraph was removed. a month later somebody caught on to say this is fiction there is nothing true it is terrible this is new journalism. and i was crushed because i said i cannot give the bad name it is a mistake but it is casting aspersions on the the of reporting that was deep in detail and ultimately klay himself who removed a the paragraph and he admitted later on because he thought it would slow down "the reader" and at that time newspapers and magazines were not talking about sources they would use the name the sources they did not talk about the methods now which is common but at that time it was not.

it was difficult to get over >> host: so later you married him anyway? [laughter] >> guest: it took a lot of years. >> host: that is when you were bringing up laura early >> guest: but i did have to travel and i had a sister that was part of the drug generation that got into trouble partially because my parents divorced and my father stopped paying tuition said she was drifting and she drifted under the power of a man who was turning on a lot of people to speed. there is a very funny story

where i finally had to retrieve her from his clutches at one point he was coming after me to find her and he tried to kill me. so i called up my sister who was that the undisclosed location to say we're going to go to a festival up north there will be a lot of people and he will never find us. weaver going to woodstock. we were the only people that hold might that did not even take a puff. mark so we helped each other. then when i finally did mary

klay what took us so long would take the rest of the night so you just have to redo the of book. end end we ever had a family. and then the children from cambodia that were wiped out by genocide. they could not come to america because reagin shut down the pipeline so they were trapped. he said maybe there is a child for you here.

and i said the half to go today. and he did. we could not see any children because there were kidnappings but i called "the new york times" and asked if i could be sent to cambodia to write about the children america for got a and the editor said that is an expensive trip and i said i will pay half and one week later i was in thailand going to a refugee camp and by this time i had on my reporter's hat talking to different children of different backgrounds. with the last child was substituted because they had an obligation but a beautiful girl her hair was freshly washed and completely composed.

she had her own identity. i must ask the question that seemed absurd. did you know, of happy times? her whole demeanor changed and she began talking about the lovely house and her siblings and her dad to take a motorcycle to work. he was military police. i had to ask what happened afterwards and as she described she began to cry. and she put her head down then the director and i were rubbing her back but we could not hear anything. when she composed herself she sat up and went on to

finish the interview but as i walked out those two were wanting letters for the united states embassy. and i said what is your name? the word mom came back. that is all i had. i actually wrote a letter to mom at the camp and it did reach her. she wrote a letter to me that she would love to come into the united states. and nine months pass the reagan administration and tried to read me off the tracks as i was writing about their policy. but then one morning there

was a message on my machine that says she is arriving tomorrow 8:30 p.m. jfk. out of the blue. it was a thrill to drive with my sister to the airport to think ahead to bring her something went to a chinese restaurant to get rice but little known to meet cambodians hate chinese rice. [laughter] so we walked out of the airport are an arm with their legs in synch from the beginning we were together. shortly thereafter klay cave in to visit. we have not seen each other for a while and mom put her head down to a head but him it because he was this intruder? she knew how to handle him but by then. [laughter] better than i.

i a to occur to a classical dancer to keep her in practice so she had a costume and put on her music and dance to for klay in that style that cambodians do. that was the beginning of tearing apart his apartment and putting it back together. >> host: that's a great story. i thought about another book in that is my old boss katharine graham in terms of the substantive ironman -- and fired at what your

thoughts and your relationship to women like that? >> guest: i thought catherine gramm walked on water she was an amazingly strong woman. i knew more about her because she was very close with klay. and she shattered by the suicide of her husband she did not have much confidence in herself at all and suddenly and then they just had to shoot each other down so last may and standing would takeover but instead she took charge but then when it came to the pentagon papers that was the real test and nixon was out to kill "the washington post"

and was so furious that she published these papers that revealed the vietnam war she held fast and put the papers possible demise on the line and manage battle the to save the paper by continue to fund woodward and bernstein to tell the real story of the nixon administration and so i thought she was fantastic. >> host: another story with different people would be it from the apartment with mrs. gramm. >> this was very early living with klay. living on the lower east side. i was not used to giving a

fanciers -- a fancy dinner party he mentioned on monday we are having katharine graham's for dinner on saturday. what? henry kissinger? the evil henry kissinger? because of course, he was the designer of the cambodian escapade. so we proceeded. and klay had been a housekeeper named angela that was a holdover from his first wife and she was running his life for about 10 years before i came along and was not to give 1 inch of her turf. so i tried to explain what we needed to save her trouble that we ordered lamp

tops just take them out of the freezer five hours before and let them fall -- saw. and kissinger comes in there talking to each other. he came in with diane carol and he is making eyes at her [laughter] in she is responding because she went from man-to-man. also famous reporter started to grill kissinger meanwhile he and kathryn gramm would go to movies together with private dinners and it was a revelation even though on opposite sides politically they loved being with each

other because they operated in the same zone. it ends up it is time to go in to dinner we sit down rates angela would never let me come. looks the chops are on the of baking trays. are they done? she did not say anything and stick the foreskin it is totally frozen. you were to take these out five hours before and she said five minutes. so it became so i call their the kitchen in saboteur. she wanted to make sure that the party failed so they could fire meet so i had to call klay into the kitchen i have something to tell you.

then i said we can order out peking duck and he said he thinks we're putting on the celebration for opening of china. so that turned out. [laughter] >> host: when my wife and i were first married we had no money. and for wallpaper on one entire wall and put covers of the "new york" magazine. it is the places i had never seen before tell us what it is like to be a part of "new york" magazine and that era. >> it was thrilling. because we became a family in early. the place to operated was the fourth floor walkup.

it was 100 feet long and as wide as half of this room. you could imagine everybody was on top of each other he believed of the open -- in the zero big news room. we became very close very easily. once a week he would have editorial meetings at the palm restaurant. and everybody was prepared to give their best ideas but he would shoot them down which was normal i have a source for you so we all became like family to help each other because it was the ultimate magazine of the

week to be great and exciting. then klay and his partner would tear up the front page at the last minutes to put in and somebody else. it was the thrill and the other bonus the near the u.n. george bush sr. who was the convoy would be sitting in the corner with one dazzling lady after another each week. >> host: that is classic. [laughter] you had the privilege to write about kennedy in the last campaign. what was that like? >> guest: that was a big darr for me because i had

never written a political story. and i said -- he said would you know, about politics? i said my mother is a natural born irish rebel. nine no fighting at the dinner table he said great then you understand bobby. bobby threw? bobby kennedy. cover his campaign in california. fisa i have never been a political story in my life and he said now was the time to start. he gave me the best advice. the way to make your name as a journalist not to do a lot of little stories even if they are terrific they've been much change the conversation you have to tackle a big story. they're talking about but they don't know why. so i swallowed my fear and took said there. i was on that campaign bobby

kennedy constantly goes to the small rural towns to talk to the most cost dial crowds all these men lined up in a circle like possums are muskrat's or some other animals on their shoulders. [laughter] id which try to start a dialogue have to stop the spread of guns. [laughter] and he was so gracious. he was taking a set the cascade mountains of oregon. none of the senior correspondence wanted to go so it was my opportunity. there is an empty seat beside him. du want to set up here in

new york? that is meet. freckles was that our feet and we talk about the cost file crowd then there is a wonderful moment when he would ask an aide to bring him jfk is overcoat. it was five years after kennedy was assassinated. and rfk was still wearing his brothers coat was very poignant. then as we were about to land in portland they're going through a driving rainstorm we don't see another plane is headed toward us but then we drop ministry my stomach turns and bobby kennedy in the middle of the drops said no mccarthy was desperate but not that desperate.

[laughter] solve that convinced me take the darr. two nights later his own life was ended at the point of a gun. i left that morning. it was not well capitalized magazine i just took there redeye back and i had just left i got off the plane and had this foreboding sense in had to turn on the radio to hear that he had been killed and two hours later by broaden my daughter who was four years old i watched her and she said why is the lady

in the white suit bending over that man? it was fl kennedy of course, . you always say why? you can never answer. >> host: is due started writing. >> guest: yes. because klay called and said where is the story? it was 630 in the morning. i said i can can blame so broken up. speesix you are a journalist the story of this century. start writing. good training. >> we should probably talk about what is known about you. >> it is a very long story but to make it short i was

hunting in northern ireland with an armed civilians and was standing next to a young boy and then all of a sudden a bullet came through and hit him in the face was of bloody mess he dropped at my feet. it was such a shocking experience that ultimately the have premature midlife crisis. i was only 32 but it was my own experience of mortality. when i read the other interviews i read other people in their late thirties had a similar sense of mortality and time running out. dissatisfaction with their

paths. we did not have a name for that as midlife crisis but i was insane stages of life to precipitate these experiences and i started to use steady adult development and those that were studying at the time they're all men steadying other men. i had a funny discussion with a professor who had a formulaic way to describe those stages of life. i said but women accommodate everyone else. maybe a little bit of this then this then go back but

we never finish the first thing we may go down again he said i thank you should follow that. what about couples? because women's life cycle were not synchronized with the men we have different issues at different points. that would tell us a lot of tensions between the couples and misunderstandings so that set me off on three years of research. the most important thing about that was the most daring decision of my life was to leave klay to take my daughter and belief to focus on this very important piece of work. he wanted me to be his

escort mr. york had a go to dinner parties in screenings and i would be writing for him during said dave said rush home to bath and bed and dinner and reading books he wanted me to be ready to go to in evening even to. there was no time to write a serious book. so i suspended our relationship even though i deeply loved him. and it survived but we realize of magnetism was so strong there was nothing we could do but me together. i read a book recently called power of to that disputes that lone genius idea to talk about many creative pairs have been responsible.

so realized that we started with the creative and to miss a. there are similar but also other and that is what creates the spark. >> with the aftermath of the impact they weren't sure if it was the fear of failure? >> it was both actually. i thought it would sink

without a trace there was a psychiatrist interviewed toward the end andy he insisted i would need him as a collaborator i did not think i needed one but he then the pope to the tender spot as a psychiatrist that nobody will take you seriously are just a journalist. so i backed away so finally i had to apply to a foundation and to get the money to finish the book and i was given to an thousand dollars but the obligation was to write a newsletter about my research project soever about the other people who were doing

research in the field including the psychiatrist to give them the attribution and he sued me for plagiarism. he knew he could not win it was a nuisance suit but it would hold me up because the publisher would not published until it was cleared up for gore had no money and could not afford a lawyer so give him 10 percent of my royalties. is there would not be any. [laughter] well, he is still hurting. so some of my fears were justified but also it happened so suddenly because everybody's attitude towards me was changed at least for awhile and that happens with anybody with sudden success. people want to use you, they're jealous or friends ever writers, much

better than i bet now i take away from them. that is how we are. i was also afraid of money. i never had more than $600 extra after i paid the bills so what would i do with the extra money? i were sure i would blow it. one year later a friend called and sent -- instead i found your house. you hate to give up the rent now i found a house for you. i'll let her show me the farm house with a lot of nooks and crannies to be private. ice said i take a shovel

under the house and should of been the of money. that is what i did and forgot about it for 20 years. then sold the house for what it was worth. [laughter] >> host: now it is time for hillary. >> guest: here is a woman indomitable in the face of the most horrifying criticism and in particular really hated why women like her other highly educated and prominent women a tremendous wall of tinker.

i knew from early on when i interviewed her that she would never leave bill clinton although people will say when they're out of the white house or when she goes to the senate or, they were symbiotic. knu imagine anybody being able to be like hillary for bill clinton? it took a bill clinton to put hillary in the position where she could run for president. they were symbiotic. i am still fascinated by them. because they have dominated politics for 25 years.

and they're still doing it which is quite amazing. so i am fascinated up through this summer i was hearing from some of her friends and colleagues who had said they really did want her to run and she was having great conflicted thought she would run. jazz plenty of money, a portable bully pulpit she can make an issue, one of the most famous woman in the world, she has the grandchild now. so why would she subject yourself to rehash

everything? will be finally figured out from the very beginning hillary was about improving the lives of women and girls and made that part of her portfolio as secretary of state so that was it if he did not agree to that. says she put that into practice and she could do much more but more than that when she finally acknowledged a bomb is victory and digested that reality and when made this speech in washington there were many women supporters there and crying bitter tears.

it was a bitter and angry crowd feeling that she had been denied because somebody else jumped the line in her last words were, don't spend one minute thinking about what might have spent. life is too short. we need to work together. and that was the promised and then there would be a lot of women failed by her in bed of they she could live with that. >> i was with bill clinton with hillary the only person. >> the same day. how did he handle it? [laughter]

>> host: i agree. >> guest: but the fascinating thing about hillary is she never blamed this. there was the scene described to me by bills campaign manager when he was running for congress the first time. they lock bill and hillary in a room the night they refusing to talk about sending paper money down by the middle of it the wife of the campaign manager said i dunno why you make such a of big fuss.

there were going back and forth. billing at the campaign manager and a wife and throw away a lamp shade nobody could get out because the door was locked. [laughter] windows are broken. >> host: so those stories are true? >> guest: yes. [laughter] that one is any way. and bill clinton just sits there all the way through

nobody ever touched him. >> host: this goes back to the data you were with her. >> guest: the morning after the 60 minutes appearance. we get on a small plane and as we fly to south dakota she goes to a pork roast feed and a banquet she is fuming on the plane about gennifer flowers to we had just seen on tv we walked in to a motel in south carolina and i watched hilary's face no surprise. she did exactly what had happened right away. no surprise.

and right away dispatched her second in command to get the circuit. than one hour later she walks into the roast and charming as she could be with all the farmers then we get back to the plane she walks in and says that stephanopoulos on the phone. ken little rock, the phone. and she starts to send out the command that she was desperately in charge of damage control. and you could see how she would protect him no matter what. her words to me were i could crucify that woman if i have her on the stand.

because she was a lawyer after all but we have to do what the republicans do to run against the republican attack machine and the press. running against the press was the big mistake because we know if you run against the press is class half empty instead of glass half full as the due to obama that is a losing battle. >> host: not want to compare your relationship with klay but their relationship is enormous with there is misunderstood aspects. >> guest: i do. that is why i knew they would never separate they have something they could not find with anybody else.

so the intimacy does not necessarily have to be sexual but it could be creative. the both to have a mission. that is genuine. but it is up where clinton was being advised not to bomb as we are now and she says bill you have to bomb milosevich.

he did. and that got them talking again. >> host: if she runs and wins what would she do? >> i a bad kid him being on the double leash don't let the dog out. [laughter] >> host: rethought you could read from your book. there is a beautiful and sad to clay's last days. >> guest: klay head cancer

four times over 70 years and i was his caregiver. we had a lot of wonderful times during that time we move from new york touche california and started life over again as a magazine california university journalism school and to have journalists that would come to that house all the time. but once we came back today york and this is towards the end this is the smallest kitchen of my life is unusually hot for june the a fan on top has to be small to clear the ceiling.

the chinese speak highly but i still can give up. was the hospital bed invaded the apartment everything change weeks ago vulgar sleep beside each other. he sleeps in the sitting room facing and though window not the window but in word. he was always looking out in the head. i remember the first time he took me to his apartment we came off the elevator. it was held open by a pair of brass lyons. with the cathedral size windows i felt as if the world was opening to meet. now i am home with the knife in the kitchen a blood type is more dangerous than a sharp knife when it cuts you

it leaves a ragged. he has been slow dying for two years. don't leave him. stay another day. it will take another 20 minutes to simmer the mixture and then dash head through a strainer and pour into a feeding tube praying that it doesn't lot. i feel a wave of russia. so sharp it is painful of the sunday mornings after breakfast going through central park stealing kisses behind rocks returning home to make supper for friends. and then slowly to step across the threshold