property rights. let's take standard pollution and then we can take something more complex like the alleged danger of co2. in general you have to decide at a certain.what threshold of omission constitutes pollution and what doesn't. and and there will always be a threshold. very important. lower is not always better. better. i will give you the example i gave before, coal-based england. imagine if they if they had imposed epa rules in 1970. everyone everyone would die of call starvation. ..

in the near future net several decades to provide energy for 7 billion people. whatever you say about them unless you prove the world is going to blow hot and everyone will buy you can't say you shouldn't be allowed because energy is a more fundamental need to than lack of pollution at least in superpristine environments. superpristine environment is only something we have in modern times largely because of fossil

fuels. even the caveman has to sit next to a fire and breathe in smoke. there is no clean air a paradise whatsoever. so the law should be fine, this is a scientific and technological issue. what is the proper level of emissions. there can be all sorts of considerations like how is it affecting if you are running a factory and someone moves into your neighborhood versus if you move into someone's neighborhood with a factory. one has a much different threshold. i am running a factory and people start moving in, they agree in a sense to deal with my factory versus i go in to a coal plant and in the middle of my old neighborhood. that is the up principal. it has to be based on evidence and this is where so much epa stuff is really bad because it doesn't recognize, it assumes you should lower everything infinitely, the no threshold but

i talked-about in chapter vii. nuclear too. of a lot of radiation is bad, no radiation must be the ideal. i'm getting radiation from potassium right now all. you have to be scientific and that goes for the climate thing, you have to be scientific about are people being harmed by this. my favorite statistic for as this is let's look at how many people lead dying from climate, how many are endangered by climate and what you find, not only hasn't it increase, it is decrease precipitously. in the last 80 years it is decreased by 90%. you are 50 times safer from climate and somebody 80 years ago. last year supposedly the worst year ever less than 30,000 climate related deaths in the entire world where as in 1931 it

was over 3 million and that is less than 1-third the population, like 10 billion now. what does this show us? this shows us this goes back to the view of the nurturing mother. it is not a nurturing mother. it is a pretty tough, there. what we need to do is master nature. the climate is naturally variable. it changes all the time, it changes to medically and it is vicious. attacks all time so what we need to do is master it. that is the thing. to master climate you need energy. you need to control the climate in your house with heating and air-conditioning, you need to build a sturdy civilization. that is what matters. that is what chapter 5 is called climate mastery. we are so afraid we might be upsetting the their nature in tiny little ways and missing the big picture 3 billion people have no energy and that is why

they are vulnerable from climate so if you want to guarantee safety from climate get people access to more energy. >> you heard it here, one tough mother, aris. we had a couple hands over here. >> in turn with mark kirk's office. i want to be clear that pollution is bad, and drastically overestimated in the media, it is worse for all the good it does. i want to clarify. >> anything in life if you do it you saying the risks and side-effects are worth it. as the same time the risks and side effects you want to minimize so the idea is the moral thing to do is go forward with fossil fuel use full throttle and keep improving the technology into the same time in parallel encouraging other technologies and by encouraging, stop getting in the way of.

but i believe if done properly every additional lump of coal in the system is a good thing because it is giving someone the ability to use machines to improve his life which is of fundamental form of human opportunity which we need and billions of people need. >> two more hands here and we will see if we can get through and quickly and get to this. >> it is my theory is that environmental zealots are so strongly favor wind and solar because they know they can never be widespread, inexpensive and support the population of the world and they really do not want the population to grow. how do you feel about my theory?

>> i share it. it is the non impact ideal land ultimately -- j. leonard should be appear more than i should. let me see if i confined this close to. if you believe we should live a low impact lifestyle you should be against energy on principal. doesn't matter if it is perfectly clean, perfectly cheap etc.. this was put to the test because mr. fusion more or less in the late 80s, people thought we could do fusion which is this dream form of nuclear power, won't get into technical details but essentially be unlimited, virtually free, incredibly safe and ask the top people who claim they are terrified of co2,

people like paul ehrlich, jeremy rifkin, what do you think of this, you would expect oh great, we can have as much energy as we want with no side effects, no, they said this would be the worst thing. i forget which one said this. giving society this kind of cheap energy would be like giving an idiot child and machine gun. that is how you are of you because you're supposed to minimize the impact. have made q 5,000 times more powerful and is like the incredible hulk, look how much you can change and move around so ultimately it is not impact is the ideal, as an non impact is the idea. energies are means of impacting nature with machines, that is what it does. 100% i agree. >> over here, front row. >> windmills have a lot of

impact on birds. >> if they ever were they would be pointed out more aggressively and even environmentalists shut those down already. >> epa has come up with the concussion of social carbon but they don't talk about social benefits of carbon and their costs are mainly offshore, bangladesh or whatever, you look at that, what are your comments? >> pretty much relates to what i said about climate. it is all douglas in suspense that they are all based on extrapolations from extrapolations from climate prediction models. this is the elephant in the room, everything is extrapolations from extrapolations from climate prediction models that can't predict climate and have been

invalidated by history. horrible track record and you mentioned they don't look at the benefits of is the same kind of bias. it is a philosophical bias, not a logical error so the public is making a logical error which i focus and think big picture and light is good to point out social benefits of carbon but the people coming up with these social costs are not innocent. they are anti industrial and looking for ways to scare people. >> we have time for one more if there are any more questions. right over here. with the microphone. >> i am and interested citizens. the question i have for you goes to the solution. and the role of conservatives inadvertently play in the problem. conservatives generally favor in vehicle construction deference

to the agency because they don't like courts overturning governmental decisions but difference to the agency he is card lunch for epa. what is your practical, substantive solution to the problems you have outlined? >> in terms of the co2 studies easy. stop attacking, stop regarding that as something legally actionable whatsoever. that is easy and then there is the question of how do you have the right pollution standards and ultimately it is a big issue. i am more of these users should be resolved much more in court actually is and by an agency like epa a so it is a good essay in the book climate coo i roger which gives a good critique of the executive state in the issue and gives a positive

alternative. i am in that school but it is not my focus. the reason it is a moral case is to evaluate the impact on human life and certain rough political guidance but that is a guide for policies of the makers to say we cannot be trying to outlaw this of that is fundamentally good fortune and life's those that is what i am attempting but there is more work to do beyond that. >> good news, we have copies of alex's book outside and i am sure he would be happy to sign them. please join me in thanking alex coming. [applause] >> are you local? >> booktv is on twitter. follow us to get publishing news, scheduling at the, of

their information and to talk directly with doctors during our live programs. twitter.com/booktv. >> is the year comes to close many publications have put together a list of books they believe to be the best of 2014. here is a look it some of the books the financial times have on their list. robert kaplan examines the geopolitical struggle surrounding the south china sea in the's call for an. than in dragnet nation, the extent of modern surveillance by state and nonce the actors and. also on the financial times best books of 2014 list is michael lewis's profile of a wall street traders's attempt to reform high-frequency trading in flash boys. next, rain the collapse, the events that led to the fall of the berlin wall and the causes of political order and political decay. >> you have not rising middle

class like you do in brazil or turkey or china a lot of those people muddling to want accountable government because they have property. the government can take it away and that is the condition under which democracy has spread in many parts of the world and so it is a big effort to build political institutions that can actually accommodate those demands for participation. >> that is looked at the financial times's top books of 2014. to link to the full list and see the publication selections visit booktv's website booktv.org. booktv coverage hundreds of author programs throughout the country all year long and here's a look at some of the events we will be attending this week. look for these to air in the near future on booktv on c-span2. monday we are in new york public library in manhattan for the two years reporting from nasa's jet propulsion laboratory and his inside look at the mars

curiosity mission. tuesday afternoon at the museum of american finance, the debate between interventionists and isolationists before america's entry into world war ii and the next night in manhattan and jenny norbert talks about books on afghanistan and north korea. that is a look at some of the other programs booktv will be covering this coming week. will go to a website, booktv.org and visit upcoming programs. peter -- peter duffy talks about william sebold, the first double agent in history who infiltrated a nazi spy ring in new york city resulting in 33 arrests in 1941. this program from the international spy museum is 45 minutes. [applause] >> thank you. a real pleasure to be here, a

fantastic facility. my experience in going through when i was researching this book and being a tourist here was fantastic. i was first introduced to it by a man here i want to introduce a, a friend of the museum and former fbi special agent and now a university professor and author, a very helpful source for me in writing this book. he previously investigated -- he wrote an important book on the origins of fbi counterintelligence, those who want to know more about how the fbi became the counterintelligence agency that it became as it went into world war ii and beyond should check out his work. i have two other special guests are will introduce during the course of the talk with their permission who are intimately connected to the story but my

story can begin in a lot of places. this story of william sebold and education spy ring. i will begin in early 1939 when william gottlieb william sebold and boarded a passenger liner in manhattan. and sales for nazi germany that was preparing for war. he was carrying a single suitcase and a package. left behind his wife in their apartment on the upper east side of manhattan and his plan was to visit his mother in his birthplace in germany and recover from surgery he had recently undergone. when he arrived in passport control in hamburg he was taken aside by nazi officials in plain clothes who questioned him about his life in the united states. after learning he had once worked at the consolidated aircraft corp. of san diego which produced u.s. navy

seaplane, the man promised ominously that he would hear from them again. after this point will live the way existence. he was a mechanical draftsman, apprenticed as a teenager and served from 817 to 19 in the german army, spending treatments in the trenches in world war i. turned off by the unrest of the postwar years in germany he took to the sea in 1920 to serving as a junior engineer on an oil company vessel before jumping ship that the first stop, and galveston, texas,. and illegal immigrants, he worked for a year in world texas including as a meal tender on ranch before returning to help his parents through economic difficulties. the year later he returned to see, this time jumping ship in south america where he spent two years working as a bartender and later as a diesel the engineer

in chile and peru. on february 13th, 1929, he entered america legally under the quota system for german immigrants. overs the next two years he traversed the nation working for various industrial outfits in oakland, fairbanks, alaska, san francisco, milwaukee, finally arriving in new york whether he married a german native who worked as a live-in maid for a wealthy family on park avenue. en they made residents in a new york neighborhood which was a very german neighborhood. the german neighborhood of new york. real center of german life including after the rise of hitler, nazi supporters, the most public of which were the goose stepping members who famously had a rally in madison square garden, filled madison

square garden with that the supporters in 1939. william sebold took seriously the oath when he became an american citizen and pledged i absolutely and entirely renounce allegiance and fidelity to any foreign country, state or sovereignty. i had nothing to do with hitler anymore later said. i was an american citizen. so when he was contacted by regina officials as promised several months later he initially refused a startling offer to go to the united states as an agent for the german military espionage service. go there yourself people demand. he proceeded to threaten him, describing the clothes he would be wearing when he was laid out in his casket. in fear for his life he asks for the month of august to think

over the plant in 1939, the mamas and the -- most momentous month in world history, debatable but it isn't there. on august 23rd the hit the/stalin pact was announced giving him the opportunity to invade poland without worry of interference from the great power to the east and on september 1st, the same day that hit the launch the blitzkrieg against poland commencing world war ii, william sebold left germany. the whistle to make a run for the border. flag down two motorists with foreign license plate to refuse to help, fearful he is being followed by the gestapo and mindful that he lacked proper papers to get past the jack points, he gave in. he wrote a letter saying he accepted the proposition 100%. in time he introduced william

sebold to dr. rankin, one of the many deliuss for nicholas fritz reuter, an english fluent officer based in hamburg and today we have nicholas ritter's daughter, kathryn wallace in the second row here. just to fill in slightly who she is and how she came into the story, catherine was the young girl during the war. ritter live in the united states in 1920s, married in alabama born woman who he took with him to germany, they had two children. one of whom was kathryn and by the time ritter matt william sebold and brought him into the spy service they were already going through a divorce and catherine was a young girl who had an extraordinary wartime story she has written about in

her own memoir which involve the divorce and custody battle like kramer vs. kramer melted fat whisking glorious bastards. it is quite a story. she came to the united states and currently lives in the washington dc cheri and speaks not with a german accent that a thick of the south. she was a real help in this book and a real peach of a lady. ritter was looking at this point for a man he could send to new york as a messenger and contact man for a small ring of spies he had established red william sebold is nominated for the job but nicholas ritter's great mistake, strategic linda that would lead to a spectacular downfall of his american spy

ring encourage the very day he met his newest agent. apparently under ritter's orders, william sebold's u.s. passport was stolen. likely sell an agent who didn't have the travel advantage of legitimate u.s. citizenship could use it. ritter instructed william sebold to go to the u.s. consulate where william sebold had already attempted to tell his do we and apply for a new passport through legitimate channels. the passport reapplication process required william sebold to visit several times over the coming week, a period when the excitement of the early days of the war had subsided and william sebold was able to tell his story providing letters from readers back for a to the consul general himself, alfred clide r clideforth louis inform his superiors that william sebold was being coerced into the german spy service and, quote, requests that he be met on his

arrival from new york by representatives of the state department in order to convey his story to them by word of mouth. leader he told them to include the fbi gmen. i want to see the g men. he underwent a total of ten days of training, he was lodged at a place populated by other training spies. he was taught to use the radio key to tap out messages by morse code, instructed in the use a specially outfitted camera to reproduce blueprints or documents onto a postage stamp size micro photograph which would be readable only with a magnifying instrument and he was schooled in the cipher system based on the letter arrangements of the particular page which would change each day in the

edition of the best-selling historical romance all this and kevin too. six a seven paragraph that i write about this coding system is a hardest lisa seven paragraphs i have written in my life, by far, to try to figure out how this thing worked and i needed some help and i am not sure i still get it, but it is there for your perusal. he was provided with the addresses of mail drops in shanghai and in portugal and was christened with the code name tramped. a clear acknowledgment of his footloose life up until then and was told to conduct business in new york as harry's lawyer, a bland american name that would attract little notice. finally he was given a one thousand dollars in american cash, 15 a $16,000 when adjusted for inflation, about $2,000 was

about the average income of an american family in 1940. he was given several microfilm documents of instructions hidden within the jeers of his watch. and accompanied but unsure if he was being followed he took the train from hamburg to munich, change for the overnight to milan and continued the next morning for genoa. on january 29, 1940, the s s washington pushed off from the northern italian port bound for new york city. aboard was just as an aside the irish novelist faherty who had written the in former. which i would be crazy not to mention since they had an informer on board. the ship was met at quarantine in the narrows by coastguard cutter carrying a state department officers and fbi special agent who asked william sebold if he was willing to come to the fbi's new york office in

police square for further discussions. after a few days of telling his story was asked if he was willing to become the fbi's first counters of the sky. the phrase double agent was not yet in common parlance during the trial 16 months later all the -- it was covered quite extensively in new york papers including the tabloid the daily news, the daily mirror, the phrase double agent was not used once. they actually -- the prosecutor said the prosecutor instruct us that william sebold was a counter intelligence agent or counterspy as if this phrase and this idea was so new. assigned to be his handler was james ellsworth, a mormon who had gained fluency in german as a missionary during his missionary service in the late years of germany and he happened

to be an inveterate diaries and letter writer and the family was extremely generous in sharing his diary and his letters. this is what he wrote in his diary when he met william sebold. as i was getting out of the shower in the hotel room william sebold came in. i found william sebold to the atoll, thin, 157 pounds german. you, is a big bunt, brown eyes and had brown hair. he spoke english brokenly as time went on he spoke very well. the fbi wasn't entire be sure they could trust this character with his incredible story. i spent three is trying to get a file from the national archives. the fbi had transferred it to the national archives and i made numerous requests and begged and pleaded and got it that the last minute because in the book which included a version of what today would be a psychological

analysis, i will quote the words of sam bok fourth was the head of the new york office of the fbi, william sebold had an honesty complex, he is so honest that i am afraid he will give himself away because of his inability to act his part. the has a mania for doing what he feels is right. for example he says if the german government really knew him they would never have entrusted him with the assignment which they gave him and he took this assignment knowing he would never go through with it but knowing he had to do something to get out of chairman alive. further, william sebold's feelings for america were unequivocal, quote, he states an oath to him is a sacred thing and when he swore to be loyal to the united states and a loyal united states citizen at the time he was naturalized, he considered that is a good dose and he renewed that goes that the time he was given a passport. he says the opinion that if a man breaks faith with him in any

respect whatever that man is not deserving of any further consideration. it is therefore apparent that if william sebold ever feels the bureau does not trust him or would fail to carry out any part of what he thinks is its contract with him he would blow off and probably ruin the case. you can imagine they were not entirely counting on this thing working but nonetheless he checked out, he insisted he wouldn't go forward until they showed some faith in him and they did so. in germany william sebold was instructed to contact four individuals and this is an extraordinary cast of characters that i will give a brief mention of these four. there was frederick to cain, a south african native who now 62 had enjoy an outlandish career as an adventurer, author, a soldier of fortune, playboy and

spy. left many a dinner party spellbound with stories of his purported heroics during world war i and the boer war in world war i. is claimed to have sunk the ship carrying field marshal horatio herbert kitchener, the architect of britain's war strategy in world war i was given wide airing and a biography called the man who killed kitchener was published in 1932. also that story was not true, duquesne had committed violent acts against british interests and live without the benefit of clergy as the fbi put it in his report with a much younger girlfriend at 24 west 76st street, half a block from central park which is owned by texas billionaire these days, beautiful residence in an unbelievable location. that was leased line, a 26 year make viennese jew who was living

on east 54th street apartment and to seduce american and british officers of distinction into telling her their secrets. she had reached the united states by way of a visa provided by ogden hammond jr. the young fight council, vice consul of the u.s. consulate in vienna. with whom she was having an affair. a german passport furnished by it nazi spymasters eager to set up an operation in new york. the passport described her -- both of her parents were jewish. during one of their earning meetings stein made a pass at william sebold who rebuffed her advances. why is it you american men are always afraid of women, she said? everything she said sounded like it came right out of the 1930s movie. there was a bronx born cornell

dropout who had been working on precision weapon systems in 1916, he was an engineering genius and gun and is used to was always showing off his weapons to william sebold who was worried that if he ever discovered his true identity would be shot. you was blind in the right eye which gives the peculiar steer, wrote the fbi, which brings us to our second or third special guest, everett roker's granddaughter is here today. who knew mr. roker when she was a child and provided extraordinary help to my story. she came up to new york with a trunkful of family secrets which we went through in a long island hotel room in an enjoyable afternoon. great lady, thanks for coming. finally, herman laying. and ideological nazi from a bavarian mountain village living in queens who had already

succeeded in giving the germans the plans for america's greatest secret, the bomb site, a scientific marvel that enabled their planes to drop bombs with unprecedented accuracy. william sebold earned the trust in the spy context and the circle widened. deegan meeting with several naturalized german working on the kitchen and dining staffs of the american flag passenger liners, men served as carriers delivering intelligence and many to and from germany. included in this group was the chief butcher of the s s manhattan who came from germany with a message for william sebold, which i will read. spring of 1940 after the operation of a few months since february. one of the letters in the butcher's envelope outlined

technical specifications to make moore's could contact with him and the gaps wall or station. using funds given to him in germany bureau agents obtained two receivers, sky champion and super pro. a refrigerator sized transmitter later use to power a more powerful, 500 what transmitter and various antennas, cables, supports and feed lines which after failed tests in a static in the new york office were installed in a rented two room college in a kia area among the trees on long island sound, quote, as the last connection was made and a blowtorch silence to was noted that the time was a few seconds before 7:00 p.m.. the next regular calling time of the german control station according to the information, wrote richard miller, a special agent flown up from washington to help the system.

the receivers were tuned in to the designated frequency and warmed up. very shortly morse code was heard. at first faber copied as are a boat in what in that the too closely spaced and run together. realizing this that the engine is separated them into the desired call. when the control station stop sending the bureau's undercover station began sending a series of dots and dashes in accordance with a lawyer's instructions. the transmitter was stopped after a few minutes. after five minutes. the receiver is turned on. the german controller turned briskly with congratulations and instructions for the next contact, a working link had been established, groundwork had been laid for the case to evolve. of rich and next 11 months the center station run by the fbi received 167 messages from

william sebold's spymaster is seeking a wide variety of information of airplane production, weather forecasts, shipbuilding progress, material, exports and munitions innovations. dms on get busy getting new clinton and detailed, news, news, news, one message said. from the u.s. and fbi, special agent named maurice price pretending to be william sebold tapped out 301 messages first approved by government oversight panels that included j. edgar hoover, the dispatches were often vaguely worded or outright fictitious. in november of 1940, the station received a message from hamburg wonder what william sebold thought about setting up an account in new york bank to which germany could wire funds to pay this growing spy ring. an extraordinary coup. after much debate in the new york office the fbi responded

after five days since i responded in the words of william sebold, since i have good connections in diesel lines i recommend opening a small research office licensed, a business name and suitable space present no difficulties. as research offices continually need money you can send me a large amount. the response came we are in agreement. of an office immediately come advise when and where you want, the remittance center in the highest amount possible for you to handle without suspicion. thus the coup they gras of the case. the fbi, room 627, the fbi chose the heart of america, with french renaissance ornamentation and copper roof at the southeast corner of broadway and 42 street in times square. formerly the knickerbocker head

teller was now an office building known for its most prominent tenant, newsweek magazine his staffers would remain ignorant of the huge story taking place on the sixth floor. dealing directly with the building's donor who offered to replace the manager if he wasn't cooperative the of the bureau rented room 627 and two adjacent offices, 628 and 629 please the days after the deal was reached in late november agents created a stage set with the largest space occupied by the office of william sebold, diesel engine here, the words painted on the door of 627. the setup was centered around something that was expert the bundy and within a few feet of the silver coated, two way wall mirror behind which a bureau agent, usually richard johnson, was operating a spring wound motion picture camera in a soundproof space, quote, we barely had enough light to make a picture and it was necessary to slow the camera down as low as it would go and open the lens

wide open to get a good picture. position within his line of sight or a clock and cased within a wooden frame and his flip page calendar which had numbers large enough to be readily viewable to future jurors. william sebold had his back turned to me at those times, said johnson, sometimes he had his face, the side of his face turned to me, we were more interested in the other person, conversations were monitored by head phone wearing german-speaking agents, typically could take the stand as i witnesses to bolster his voluminous testimony and recorded to lacquered aluminum disks by the state of the art presto recording system. by early december 1940, a telephone had been installed, phone-number bryant 9609, business cards printed up and $5,000 in nazi money wired through mexico to william sebold's new account at chase

national bank. three transfers were sent from this method totally, $16,500. from december of 1940 until june of 1941, the fbi recorded 81 meetings between william sebold and various members of the spy ring including a japanese agent and an irish member of a branch of the ring that met in a bar. a particularly helpful interview was a marine spy who interviewed in -- specializing collect information and british merchant ships, leading to the u-boat's before sinking them in great numbers in these months. i will give you -- when this office was up and running, it was new spies walking in every day. and yuri twenty-fifth, 1985-1941, the head chef of the s. s. america, pointed out with

the gun placements would be located when transferred to the u.s. navy. on february 10th, he wondered if william sebold had ever heard of a carrier which allow agents to begin investigation of a steward on the s as your why of the mccormick shipping line on march 5th. he identified george shoe, and nazi ideologue who was a commander of the hudson county new jersey branch of the nazi front organization. on march 12th, he arrived with a vegetable cooked on the argentina who sent messages through a mail drop in brazil and spoke of the owner of a little casino on his block of these 85st street which turned out to be the run in the point for another ring of spies.

blasts by to visit the office was fritz duquesne he stayed for three hours on june 25th, 1941, three days after nazis took germany, launched its massive surprise land and air invasion of the soviet union, pushing the u.s. ever closer to war and on saturday, june 25th, and sunday, june 29, 1941, 250 fbi agents swooped in and arrested 33 nazi spies, the largest apprehension of foreign espionage agents in the history of the united states, 250 fbi agents, 1,000 fbi agents at this point in fbi history so this is as large as they were going to go at this point. in the six week trial in fall of 1941, william sebold was finally able to tell the truth, the defendants and their lawyers

portrayed him as a fearsome nazi the goers' them into joining the aspiring. one of the marines' lives testified that he would never see his mother again if he didn't support the cause. another said i was afraid of him. this was a potent charging german america. memories were fresh of thousands of enemy aliens and german birth who were imprisoned density allegations of disloyalty during world war i. william sebold was seen by many of his own people as an embodiment of a new anti german cause, 10,000 german nationals of suspect loyalty would be in turned during world war ii. in their eyes he was a traitor to his people. the highlight of the trial were the film's. during the following week in brooklyn the nation was provided with the defense techniques

being deployed against the enemy. after friedman and johnson testified about the office, sound recordings were not admissible. the judge made the following announcement, members of the jury, i will ask you to come to the other side of the court room, you will occupy the seats on this side. it may not be possible for you to see from the chairs, some of you may have to stand. if you do not observe anything interrupt and tell us. the court room was dark and and johnson's films were projected onto a 5 foot screen behind the jury box. the american relationship with the hidden surveillance camera was born as a rap audience watched well soundless minutes of fritz glancing through rooms 627, sitting down opposite a partially obscured william sebold reaching into his office by secret and conversing animatedly. when the lights came up reporters noted to canada broad grin on his face. all my life i wanted to be on

the movies and when i made it what did i do? he said, sit there and scratch my ass and take my nose. the times scott that how the government had resorted to the use of motion pictures in open court. i think it is convicted now. that was a direct line from this scene in a hotel room. . i will write an essay about that. and in the early afternoon berlin time on december 11th, 1941, four days after pearl harbor adolf hitler formally declared war against the united states. at midnight on the following day, december 12th, a jury of nine conflict three women after tweeting hours of deliberations livid guilty but verdicts in all counts against the defendants. dismissing them from their duties the judge said to the jurors will readily appears that you have rendered a very substantial contribution to the welfare of the country which you and i hold very dear.

william sebold had already disappeared into an early version of the witness protection program. after the trial he was relocated to a small home in walnut creek, calif. outside san francisco where he had reason to fear for his life when the nazi sent seven terrace to the united states in 1940 to one of their assignments was to exact revenge on william sebold. there is no sun big enough for him to hide under said one of the organizers of the senators mission which was foiled almost immediately upon landing in the united states. william sebold worked as a night watchman in california, he ran a chicken farm for a while, he worked briefly at the walnut creek post office but it was a part-time job, lost it because of a disagreement with the postmaster he wrote in one of his resumes. his family generously provided

-- she was a cleanup man at a bar named the club diablo. we can imagine what that was all about. he suffered from manic depression in his later years and had a sad ending to his life when he died which i go into in detail in the story, when he died on february 16th, 1970, no obituary appeared in any newspaper. he had achieved briefly a measure of what he sought. jim ellsworth, is fbi handler described a sightseeing visit to george washington's home that he took in a trial. this was a letter ellsworth wrote to his parents and he said he was bill laps outstanding item of the trip, he admired the simple mansion, a building for

the kitchen, one for the spinning, one for the tools, one for the smokehouse, the greenhouse, the laundry, each with its living quarters for the slave is doing the work there. east and much time is there and that was the kind of life he wanted. a little kingdom not dependent on anyone for existence. in walnut creek he had that briefly until his end so thank you so much for your time and i am happy to take any questions. [applause] >> thank you. will you sign some books? helen

those ships sunk. it was sunk by a you boat. one of the first merchant ships sunk during the war.

that happened in slowly there was a few members that what would come up to the office. things started to get a little hot. i didn't mention there was one irish member of the ring. there were 34 warrants. 33 were served. one guy got away and he was the irishman. the irishman sean connelly wasn't sure about the office. they trusted william sebold as a man who fought in world war i. the irishman said there was something wrong with this and he talked among the german members who quizzed william sebold in one evening and things of this sort were happening and they started feeling we have to wrap this up and there were two members preparing to ship out and they had to arrest them and

they were not charged with espionage but were held in circumstances that were not forward. >> and what happened when there were arrested ultimately? >> their prison terms were shorter than they would receive today. the espionage act, violations that main spies were convicted, 18 years was the maximum. and two years additional on foreign agent registration act charge. if i'm remembering that correctly. the prison sentence ranges from 18 months to 20 years so many of them were out long before the war, long before the war was

over. >> peter, what lessons can we draw, encountering an entirely different world, the fbi still has to deal with people who are facing issues of dual loyalty and the complexity of that and the difficulty of that. can you comment on that? see if we can draw some lessons from your experience? >> i think one point is this a german experience, it was a significant community in new york and the united states. there were something like 350,000 german-born and austrian born residents in new york equivalent to the chinese born today. first off, the german community

aspiring like this should be examined in ways you mentioned. most people don't realize how significant a german-american community was. listens to the learned are interesting. this spy ring began very early, the most dedicated members were active and sending secret to germany long before the fbi was thinking about tracking them and that maybe something essential about counterintelligence, you have to be aware when the rest of the country is not at all thinking about fighting a war with germany. this is a case where the fbi was, and i argue, was the only entity of the u.s. government that was involved in the war from 1939 to 1941 when we really

got in. this was a destructive ring, could have done a lot of damage. that, of course, is a tricky job when counterintelligence requiring public support. communities that will protest their innocence even though there is a minority in the german-american community there is a stronger supporter. i am not involved as someone who is an expert on counterintelligence, all i know is these people were serious, they were serious before the u.s. government was even thinking about it. >> join me on behalf of the international community. >> thank you. >> we have plenty of books in

the back. enough for everybody. >> thank you very much. ..

>> also we have a collection of author interviews from "the new york times" book review by the book. and the examined feminist underpinnings of wonder woman. >> she wins all these readers during an election. and she gets her own comic book in 1942. and it's actually quite interesting because gaines has been under a fair amount of criticism and yet done this thing and he wants to celebrate this thing. one of the things he does is a four-page centerfold of an issue that is called the wonder woman of history. and there are these feminist biographies of women who have made team in. >> that is some of the minneapolis star tribune books.

visit our booktv website for more. >> now we have gail sheehy with her book "daring: my prassages." this was held in madison, wisconsin. this is an hour in five minutes. [inaudible] [inaudible] [laughter] [applause] >> i am delighted to welcome my friend and colleague here today. >> i am so thrilled to be here. >> particularly when it came to her life with the clintons, she

has such famous lines with some of the great writers in this era. she is one of the most exciting magazine writers and she has written for vanity fair for many decades now. in her most famous book is "daring: my passages." it was accepted into the library of congress in the modern era. and we are here talking to her about her latest book, which was originally going to be part of my passages which is the subtitle. but i always struggle with titles of books. but i think that this is the perfect title. >> thank you. i am so thrilled to be here and it's such an honor to have such an illustrious interview.

it took me three years to excavate my life for a number and i use that intentionally because it's like digging between your ribs and some of it is painful and some of it is joyful. one of the nicest parts of it is discovering or rediscovering people who were very important in my life who shaped me that i had not really thought about in that way before. so it makes me thankful. but in any case it wasn't until i was nearly finishing the book but i recognize the theme of my life. and that was daring. and it sort of surprised me. you know, i don't think that we take time to sit down and put together the pieces of our lives and our multiple wives and to try to draw a thread through it. so i would recommend that you

write a memoir when you get into your 60s or 70s. it's very illuminating. and although daring, what does it mean? well, it's taking the less traveled road and it is perhaps giving voice to some people who don't have a voice. during to speak up for them. and it is when you are older and gray and saying that i am still here. there are many daring aspects and what i'm trying to do is excite women to be more daring particularly younger women and i have a website called the to be daring project. and i am excited for people to send in there during moments. and it is kind of catapulting in

this way. >> [inaudible] what are the steps he took to being a writer? >> oh, absolutely. my grandmother visited us and she had been a protective young woman and always being driven and when she was little she went to work and she learned how to drive and she went to work every day and she bought me my first typewriter when i was seven years old and it was so thrilling to actually make that work and to actually sit and write on the typewriter that i just had a wonderful time with it. and it was so much fun for kids,

and kids today have computers but that typewriter let you know that you're putting something down on paper. and so we live in a suburb about 45 minutes from new york city. and she is a woman of grand central station. and so i couldn't wait to find out what were those private lives like. they couldn't be anything like the boring people that lived in the suburbs. so one day asked grandma if she would keep my secret if i took a train in and went to grand central. so she kept my secret and giving give me the money and i was nine or 10 years old and my legs were too small to even reach the heights that and so i get on the

train and it allowed me to sit back and then i would watch the people and i would see a man with a big hat that would come together with a woman and they would be talking about people saying they must be communist. and so they would make up all kinds of stories to go with these fantastic looking people. and then i went home before dinner and i was sitting at my typewriter and that was my start as a writer. >> a few months later you arrive in new york city in the newspaper world of 1963 and we

are paying a tribute and to talk about that. what it's like. >> well, there were five newspapers and they are all very competitive and they are all very good. and i had been exiled to rochester putting him through medical school and there were a lot of wonderful journalists who were looking to new kinds of journalists who were working. and the only way i could get a job within them women's department because i was a girl and there were many girls at that time. so i got tired of that after the first year.

and that includes people of the women's department and and so they were on the pages of the new york herald tribune and doing a different kind of journalism and it was an individual that was in the toils for writing about this and all kinds of exciting worlds. and i would see tom with his long silky hair and he was a virginia gentleman and they said

we might want to have you be brave if you want to write for the mill feature writers. and i thought, i'm brave, i think. so i refused to be deterred. i get to the office and the first thing i hear about is his voice, which is notorious and he said, what do you mean, you don't have my reservation? and i'm bringing a senator tonight and i thought, i can't talk to this man. finally i said serve, come on and. he said where did you come from, the estrogen zone? and he laughed.

and i spelled out my story to keep his attention and then i said well, it is about these guys that wanted to take a beautiful girl to sit on a beach going to and they wanted to attract other pretty girls because they wanted to be stayed with and they are having this as well. and so they asked did you go to this viewing party two and i said, well, of course [inaudible] [inaudible] and so then the at which time tom was really the leader.

and he tried to make a cabal. because, you you know, jimmy just love the fight. he was like the ultimate alpha male. but he used to call us later on when i lived there which was a very awkward time and you can talk and talk because he was a heck of a good writer. >> having this chronology a little bit, i wanted to talk about both your mother and how you see your mother. and i was really moved by one of the passages [inaudible] when your mother was so incredibly understanding with

what was going on. >> oh, yes. not all of my during episodes were particular and they brought a trunk with an extension ladder to my doormat midnight. and it was so exciting and by the time that we reached the vermont border, i said that i have to stop and call my mom. he wasn't happy and he was a

tree surgeon. [laughter] and i know, but you know, it was pretty interesting. and we have friends that can be a part of this and don't you want to shop for a wonderful down together and all of this stuff. they said come on home and we will talk about it. and so pretty soon we had started with the tree surgeon. but then i had gone back to college and asked individually about it for their permission to readmit me after such a time and

i realize how important it was that i became a born-again virgin. [laughter] >> it sounds like you are trying to be a career writer and especially the second one is really amazing. >> the marriage to the medical students plugged in my face and he was having an affair and that he wasn't able to give up. so i had to dare to leave the marriage which wasn't a very popular things to do and i hoped

to be at home with her. but who would take me seriously as a freelance writer and a girl two i thought that i will probably -- maybe i will have to take a job at macy's. i knew that that create a flavor go out if i did that. and i wrote my first book which was an novel about the breakup of our marriage and it failed. well, they weren't ready to do that. and i've decided that he would just keep trying to write magazine articles and i asked to write on the basis of this book and more than that actually being a writer helps me to dare

to put on hot pants and hooker boots and walk the streets of new york in order to see what the world of violent prostitution was about which was a time where we really can't them away. it was one of the most exciting stories that i ever did and it was very exciting that got me also into a lot of trouble because you can't follow the whole lifecycle of a street worker because first of all they won't talk to. and they are often beating up on

this order [inaudible] and so that was what i was reporting on. and so eventually i met with this beautiful tall, african-american girl that everybody admired, but she wouldn't talk to me. in the course of my reporting to new jersey. where it was just exhausting with these low-level mafia guys

and and so this is where somebody caught on to it saying that this is a fiction and there's nothing true about this and i'm kind of reporting that it was very good about the details.

and so it is all very common now and thank goodness because at that time it just wasn't. so i was difficult to get over it. >> so later you went forward without? >> well, it took me a long time. and people are always wondering and i had a sister that came much younger and so she was a part of this generation and my father stopped paying her tuition after she was divorced, so she was kind of drifting and she drifted under this power of amanda was turning on a lot of

people and so i called my sister who is staying and they said that we are going to go with some kind of a festival up north. and there's going to be a lot of people like this and there's that whole my in woodstock. [laughter] but anyway, my sister was very willing and so we helped each

other through those years. and i would like to tell you that that will take us the rest of the night. so you'll just have to read the book. and so we get our broken more and more about going off to college before we really ever had a family. and it's all part of this genocide. and so we couldn't come to america because reagan had shut down the pipeline and so it is

such an imagination and certainly not part of that option. and so i said, okay. and on the way back i call "the new york times" and they write about the children that america for god. and so by this time i had my reporters had on and i'm talking to different children that have different backgrounds and that they had and they had identified

to the situation with her own identity. so i sat down and asked her a question and said, did you ever know about this and he said as we get deep into the interview i asked what would happen and what

she composed herself, and i had to bring her out there were people to get out and they said that's all i have. but i got back, and i actually wrote the letter tomorrow. and she wrote her letter to me saying that she would love to come to the and she didn't even know what that was.

and that includes the policy and there was a lot going on and they said arrive tomorrow at 8:30 p.m. at jfk. just out of the blue. so it was this drill driving with my sister to the airport and this was right from the beginning we were together and so he came in and head butted it because he was just saying that

who is this intruder coming into the family. and she had a costume and went in and changed and came out and that was the beginning of his completely tearing apart and putting it all back together for family. >> that is my old.definitely. we talked about this in "the washington post."

and so whatever your thoughts are, what is it in regard to what drew the book you so much? >> she was an amazingly strong woman and i knew more about her because she was very close. and she was really shattered by the suicide of her husband who has kept her suppressed. and so that the last man standing would take over. and she interviewed everyone and took charge and then when he came through the pentagon papers that was the real test and he

was so furious that he had publish these papers that revealed what happened in the vietnam war and she held fast and put these papers possible demise on the line and managed to not only save the paper but to continue to fund this as well. >> i brought that up to get to another story, which if you were to make of this, it it is an interesting thing with different types of people and it would be one of those things in the department. >> this is very early since i

had been living there. i was giving a fancy dinner party and a very casually mention on a monday and i had to expand this. and so henry kissinger? because he was the designer of the cambodian escapade. and so we proceeded with a housekeeper from this situation and he had been running his life 10 years before i came along and she wasn't about to give up 1 inch of her term. so i tried to explain just to

save her any trouble and they wouldn't even be able to use this. so kissinger comes in and they're sitting there talking to each other. and he came in with diane carol and he was making eyes at diane carol. [laughter] and he was quite a list barrio. she is responding and he was a s "washington post" reporter and meanwhile he and the captain would go to movies together and have little private dinners together.

and this is a revelation to me. but howard loves power, even though they were on opposite sides politically. they loved being with each other because they were operating in the same zone. so it ends up where it's time to go to dinner. we sit down and we go to the kitchen and say, okay, you have all of these out on the baking tray and she didn't say anything. and we stick it farther and farther and it's totally frozen. and they say, you tell me five minutes. and so then she was at the kitchen.

and so i had to call him into the kitchen and say that i have something to tell you. and then i told him that i know what to do. and he said, that is fantastic. he would think that we are putting this celebration in at china. >> when you first moved here you live in an apartment and it had that sort of excitement that we had never seen before and it was totally thrilling because they

became a family very early. the place that we operated on for the first few years was a lookup and headquarters and was just 100 feet long, that's all. and about as wide as half of this room. there were 40 people and are unless you can imagine everyone was on top of each other and everyone could hear them on the phone all the time saying what you want? [laughter] and so was completely open and we became very close very easily. and so once a year, i mean once a week, he would have this at the restaurant right near the u.n. and everybody was just prepared for giving their best ideas driven instead of shooting these down which was normal, we

said it all became part of this is we held each other and we thought that it would just be great and exciting. and with george bush senior who is in our envoy and that was a

very big bear for me. because i had written part of this story and clay came barging in. and they said well, now is the time to start. and that is when he gave me the best advice saying that the way to make a name as a journalist is not to do a lot of little stories and i thought, terrific, i can change the conversation. the way to make your name is to tackle a big story, something that everyone is talking about

but they don't know why. and so i swallowed my fear and i took the dare and i will never forget that i was on that campaign and this was trying to talk to people and all of these men that were lined up in a circle wearing these guns over their shoulders. and they all seem to have some other animals on their shoulders. and so he would try to start a dialogue about how to stop the spread of guns. [laughter] and he was so courageous about this. and anyway he was taking us up and down the cascade mountains of oregon and we have a little tiny plane and so none of the senior correspondents wanted to go and it was my opportunity to

ask questions. so i get on the plane and they said, do you want to set up your hassan rouhani and i thought, okay, so i sit next to them and we get to talk to him about this and then there was this wonderful moment when he asked an aide to bring him jfk's overcoat and it was very poignant. so we talked about that. and then as we were about to land in portland, we are driving through this driving range and we don't see that another plane is headed directly towards us and my stomach turns over and bobby kennedy quits and says i

know gene mccarthy was desperate, but i didn't know he was that desperate. [laughter] and so that story convinced me that it was okay to dare. you never know. two nights later, his own life was ended. at the point of a gun. >> you had left that morning? >> yes, we had to save money and it was a very well-capitalized magazine. so i was taking the redeye back. i had just left home and i was getting off the plane and had this for bidding sends and it was then and they said why are

they bending over that man two and of course it was ethel kennedy bending over her husband. and we said that is why we could never really answer. and we said we started writing and i said well, i'm just so broken up because you're not appointed in history. because it's good training. >> i suppose we should talk about your book, "daring: my passages" and the book that is defining so much about what people know about you. how did you write that book?

>> well, it wasn't -- it's a very long story and it's the short version. i have been in northern ireland and i have been caught in the crossfire and we are standing next to a young boy asking them and they said that it was such a shocking experience that ultimately i had a premature life crisis. i was only 32 at the time, but this was my first experience of mortality. and so as i read many interviews that i was doing for another book that i intend to write, i found that so many people in their late 30s to mid 40s

had similar senses of mortality, time running out and the satisfaction and we didn't know name for that. but i began reassessing that there were stages of life that would purchase precipitate some of these experiences and i started studying adult development and i went around three or four men who were studying at that time and that was the only lifecycle that we have. and we had a very formula thing that went from abc and then kept going. and i said that women are

accommodating everybody else and we might do a little bit today and they said i think we should follow that and then i wanted to know about couples because it was clear that women's lifecycles are not synced with men's lifecycles. we had different issues and points in that would tell us a lot about the tension between couples and the misunderstanding between men and women not being able to read the other one. so that set me up on three years of research. the most important thing about it in terms of the book was i had to pick the most daring decision of my life which was to take my daughter and myself and leave home and the life to put us on this very important piece

of work that had just been a part of this. because he wanted me to be his escort. we had to go to openings and screenings and dinner parties and i would be writing for him during the day and i would rush home reading books and we were expected to be all caught called up to go to an evening event. so was impossible to find any time to write a serious look. and i did recommend the power of

two and this includes the imaginary ideas as well and is way before it became a romantic issue. and they are also similar and unlike and the tension between those two things and that is what creates the sparks. >> we weren't sure if it was a fear of failure or success.

>> it was both, actually. and we have done a small study at ucla and and he insisted that i would meet him as a collaborator and so i backed away as an early journalist, refused collaboration. and i had to apply to finish this book in the 30 or and so i

wrote about the other people doing research in the field including a psychiatrist and so he sued me for plagiarism. and they said that he would take 10% of my royalties and there were going to be any and he is still earning. and so some of my feelings were justified. and so i think that that happens with anyone who has a sudden

success. and that is just the way we are on as americans. and i never made the more money extra than i paid all the bills. and i'm sure that i would blow it. and they say at the end of every summer, you still want to go forward. we said show us this house, it a farmhouse, but there are also

wonderful places to swim including a pool. we can just take a shovel and dig in the sand underneath this house. and shove in the money. >> [inaudible] >> this is a woman who without note who was indomitable in the face of the most horrifying kinds of criticisms and sexist behavior. and in particular really hated people that liked her. others were highly educated and

it was just a tremendous role of anger. and i knew from early on when i interviewed her that she would never leave bill clinton. and people would constantly talk about this, oh, she will beat him when he goes to the senate. but it was symbiotic or it can you imagine anybody being able to be like hillary for bill clinton? it took hillary to make him president and it took him to put hillary in a position where she can actually run for president. so they were symbiotic and they still are and i still am fascinated by them because they had dominated the democratic politics for 25 years, longer

even than roosevelt. and they were 17 or 18 years and these people are still doing it. it's quite amazing and they really didn't want to talk about this. and she was talking about these thoughts because talked about it, she has plenty of money were anywhere she does and she can make an issue and she's one of the most interesting women in the world and she now has a grandchild that she has known

about for so long. so by which he subject herself to lying and sliming and rehashing of everything that we would have to endure? and it was one very overriding reason. from the very beginning hillary had been about improving the lives of women and girls and she made it part of the portfolio of the secretary of state when she bargained with obama about whether or not she would take the role and so that was it. if he didn't agree with that, she wasn't interested. and so anywhere she ran in the world she would be able to do much more as president. but more than that finally acknowledged that it took her three days to digest that reality and when she finally made her speech at a big hall in

washington and there were many women supporters there and they were crying bitter tears and it was a very angry crowd and some deals had dropped the line. in her last words were do not spend a minute thinking about what might have been. life is too short [inaudible] >> i was bill clinton when the day the story broke and the fact

is that she never blamed beds. [inaudible] and so when he was running for congress for the first time, they locked bill and hillary in a room the night they were losing to talk about sending this money down to this particular precinct and in the middle of it the wife said, well, i don't know what you're

making such a big buzz about this war. you need to take bill's girlfriend out of hillary's face and you are pimping with this younger woman. and so she starts yelling at the campaign manager is white. and they said that the windows were broken and nobody could get out of the house because she had locked it and so it was really crazy. and bill clinton is just sitting there. [laughter] and nobody ever touched him. and so it was the morning after this and he was just fuming

about the flowers. we saw them on tv and we walked into motels and we sat there and in the lobby there was gennifer flowers playing on his steamy conversation. so we watched her face and it was no surprise. and they ride away got there to defend her. and just an hour later she walked they are and she is charming and can be charmingly part of all of these individuals and she walks into this and says

get them on the phone and she had this ability to start sending out the commands when she was in charge of damage control and you saw how she was going to protect no matter what and do it very effectively. and her words to me were that i could crucify that woman if i had her on the stand. because she was a lawyer. and so she said, we have to do with the republicans do and we have to run against the republican attacking machine and the press. and running against the press is really one of their big mistakes because we know that as journalists if you run against the press they will say it is glass half empty instead of glass half-full as they do to obama now.

>> [inaudible] >> that's right. so when you said this about energy, i think that their relationship has certainly experienced a lot of it. >> i do as well. that is why i think that i knew that they would never separate because they had something that they couldn't find with anybody else. and so it created intimacy that didn't necessarily have to be sexual, it can be created. and they both have issues about wanting to have the country go into the direction that they would like. that is genuine. and even when they were not speaking, shouldn't speak to him

for a long time after monica and that is really interesting. >> she finally called him from someplace in eastern europe and bill clinton was being advised because you don't want to get involved in this world where we are now. ..