and medicare ad mministrator is always testifying. the hearing is four hours. the committee will come to order. without objection, the chair will be authorized to declare a recess at any time. the oversight committee exists to secure two fundamental principles. first, americans have a right to know that the money washington takes from them is well spent. and second, americans deserve an efficient, effective government that works for them. our duty on the oversight and government reform committee is to protect these rights. our solemn responsibility is to hold government accountable to taxpayers, because taxpayers

have a right to know what they get from their government. it is our job to work tirelessly in partnership with citizen watchdogs to bring genuine reform to the federal bureaucracy. this is and has been our mission for four years that i've been honored to serve. miss tavenner, before i begin with my opening statement i want to make you aware in hopes that your people will deliver documents pursuant to a subpoena that expired -- didn't expire, that was due eight days ago related to the documents behind your coming before this committee and giving false and misleading testimony related to the so-called 7.3 million enrollment figure. we asked for, and we received, only half of the documents and the documents that were excluded were the ones that created the talking points and the people

who caused you to use inarticulate language that carefully allowed you to say 7.3 million, without disclosing that that included at least 400,000 dental plans. that was subpoenaed. it was clearly understood. last night we received a huge data dump and it was not in there. and it makes it very difficult for us to go forward with some aspects of today's hearing, as you can imagine. it is clear that this hearing in no small part was not because of what obamacare is about. not about the health care. it's about honesty and transparency to the american people. today's hearing is likely the last full committee hearing of this congress. this committee has a primary obligation and has lived up to

that obligation to look at government, to make more government more transparent and accountable. and, at times members on both sides of the dias have helped in trying to create that transparency. but no government program needs increased transparency and accountability and honesty more than the affordable care act known as obamacare. it is proven time and time again to in fact have made false claims. every member on both sides of the dais can agree that the affordable care act, or obamacare, is a large, expensive program reliant on a complex network of government programs which significantly impact the lives of all americans. and yet history of design passage and implementation with the law is fraught with half half-truths and deceptions. here are just a few of the false ...

we have close to 7 million americans who have access to health care for the first time because of medicaid expansion. if you like your plan you can keep your plan. when trying to pass affordable care, obama care

the administration repeatedly claimed that the law's individual mandate was not a test. however months after passage in a brief defending the mandates constitutionality the justice department argued just the opposite. one of our three witnesses this morning offered a simple answer to this change in position. >> in a tortured way to make sure. it is written to do that. in terms of subsidies, healthy people are going to pay in. healthy people pay people pay and an sick people get money. just like transparency, a huge political advantage. basically the stupidity of the american voter, whatever. well, i wish we could make it transparent.

>> i wish i wish it was right and we had made it all transparent. considered by many as the architect of obama care. as a former obama administration official put it, professor gruber was the man on obama care, the guru of healthcare, the official went on to say, i remember that when i was at the white house he was certainly viewed as an important figure in helping to put obama care together. no one can look at the amount of money he was compensated for totaling millions of dollars. i witnessed was anything but a critical player in the affordable care act. current administration officials,

however, have however, have attempted to distance themselves from professor gruber. ever since he stated and started telling the truth about the tactics used to pass this law, in fact, the the center for medicare and medicaid services urged the community not to seat him with the administrator next him. we think you are right to be there. in fact, we, we believe that this is a perfect pairing of individuals who are, in fact, responsible before, during, and after the passage. september 182014, the administrator came before us and testified that their were 7.3 million people in a row in the health insurance marketplace coverage.

that tortured language had not previously been used and it followed a series of document requests after gruber said trust us, the us, the numbers are good, in which we discovered that in fact 7.3 7.3 million would have to include a fairly large 400,000 individuals in more or less $50 dental plans. obviously the difference between making a goal and not making gold, plans that no one would consider a key element of the affordable care act. hhs initially failed to provide any document to explain how the numbers had been interpreted. on october 12014 the community requested the enrollment data, run arounds that bordered on

obstruction. after weeks of negotiation dms finally provided the enrollment data on spreadsheets. for those at my age will appreciate, six-point fonts, something that is not readable even with your reading glasses. when electronic copies were demanded oversight investigation discovered that all of the hundreds of spreadsheets were, in fact, password-protected unlocked. after further negotiation we finally were able to receive the passwords and recognize that all along there had been an inherent deception. this was this was quickly discovered and would have been discovered by anybody simply by putting the spreadsheet in ascending order of dollars. november 212014 only after it was probably noted the

community discovered the administration was willing to acknowledge the figures released in september. moreover hhs included dental plans and its enrollment figures not just once but twice. the agency has included dental plans and its november enrollment figures and has now been forced to revise down to not greater than 6.7 million enrollees. the administration claims it made a mistake. however, there is great skepticism about that, and particularly the term mistake when it appears as though instead hhs and cms were too clever in an attempt to inflict the numbers and say they had medical. it is a small technical error in many ways whether you had 7.3 million or 6.7 million.

when you start to the books, add additional numbers and then use careful language so that you did not lie but did deceive, that is exactly what we are concerned about here in this committee. the american people have a right to no the honest numbers. management has an obligation to no if they are, in fact, going to be accountable to the taxpayers for doing her job and, in and, in fact, the american people expect no less. professor gruber is said to be the definition of a gap, when someone accidentally tells the truth. you made a series of troubling statements that were not only an insult to the american people but revealed a pattern of intentional misleading the public about the true nature of obama care which is in many ways something you

helped craft. craft. today we have an opportunity to ask you to apologize for your low opinion of the american people and hopefully apologize for the false information on which the analysis of what the affordable care act leading to the discipline as we see here today. with that i i recognize the ranking member for an opening statement. all members will have seven days to submit opening statements for the record. we now go to our panel of witnesses. this marilyn tavenner is the administrator for the department of health and human services, and mr. jonathan gruber is a professor at mit. the massachusetts institute of technology. pursuant to committee rules all witnesses will be sworn

in before they testify. please raise your right hand >> mr. chairman. >> just a moment. i am going to go through where i am. do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? please be seated. let the record the record reflect the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. >> thank you, mr. chairman. at this time in the absence of the ranking member may i ask that we have a minority witness for whom we thank your indulgence, and we would ask for convenience sake since we have a small panel that mr. goldman be added to the panel and sworn in and testify at the same time. >> i appreciate your suggestion. he is not a government witness and not an expert.

we will leave him on the second panel. i thank you for your suggestion. ms. marilyn tavenner, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. >> thank you, mr. chairman, members of the community. i appreciate the opportunity to appear here today and answer your questions about the continuing work to provide affordable high-quality healthcare. >> i appreciate if you would pull the michael little closer. thank you. >> in my previous appearance before your committee i reported a number of americans were enrolled in coverage including both medical and dental coverage. simply put, this, this was a mistake. some individuals were counted twice. leaving forward only individuals with medical coverage to be included. we are now providing weekly snapshots of 2015

marketplace data including a number of consumer goods submitted an application, contacted the call center or visited the website. we have also created a knew data office and named their first chief data officer. this will help and more broadly what help cms better harness and use our dust -- fast data resources. while this mistake was regrettable, regrettable, it should not obscure the fact that the affordable care act is working. we have 6.7 million americans enrolled in health care coverage and paying premiums as of october 15, and the number of uninsured adult americans is down 26 percent. since the beginning of the open enrollment about 9.1 million 9.1 million additional individuals have enrolled either in medicaid or chip. the first the first year of a new program, a tremendous

accomplishment. 2015 open enrollment is off to a solid start. because of new choices and more competition many consumers are now able to shop and find even more affordable options. we had seen at 25% growth in the number of issuers participating in the marketplace, which means that more than 90% of consumers will be able to choose from at least three or more issuers, and 60% of the the marketplace enrollees are able to renew coverage for less than a hundred dollars a month after tax credit. those already covered should come back to the marketplace to review options for next year. people may find an option that is either more affordable or better suits the needs. we have improved the consumer experience as well. the shopping and enrollment process is faster and more intuitive for consumers.

with the new streamlined application for many consumers reduce the number of screens from 76 down to 16 with fewer clicks to navigate through the questions for most consumers consumer interest is strong. open enrollment began last month. month. 765,000 plan selections, 48 percent of which are consumers. over 1.5 million applications and been submitted and there have been more than 5 million website visits. the affordable care act is not just about coverage. in recent years we have seen historically low growth in overall healthcare spending. just last week cms office of the actuary released their 2013 health expenditure report which had 3.6%, the lowest reported growth in health expenditures since the report's inception in 1960. while the recent slowed, reforms to the medicare and medicaid program are

meaningful contributors to these gains and are improving quality as well. for example, preliminary estimates fell by 17% from 2010 to ten to 2013 resulting in 50,000 fewer admissions and over 12 billion in cost savings. i am i am proud of our progress, proud of our team they work hard every day to ensure better, safer, better, safer, and more affordable healthcare. thank you, and i look forward to your questions. >> i recognize the ranking member for a unanimous consent request. >> one of our members requested that we have an additional witness to come on the panel. i would ask the chairman to allow that to happen. >> are there any objections? would you reserve for a moment?

>> let me ask the witnesses, ms. marilyn tavenner, do you have any objections? i understand he is a waiter at a local restaurant, thoroughly loves obama care. an independent consultant, i apologize. do you have an objection to ari goldmann? >> i have no objection. do you have a problem? i have no objections. >> i withdraw my objection. well, i would ask the ranking member to do his opening statement. >> thank you very much. before i begin, i know today is the last hearing.

chairman of the oversight committee, and i want to thank you. as you said a few moments ago, we have taken this journey together, and it has been a great journey. i said during your -- the hanging of your portrait right their. >> thank you for saying i was on. [laughter] >> i believe that everyone comes along your path to make you better. and i will tell you, mr. chairman, you have may mean a better person in so many ways, and i want to thank you for your service, your dedication, i want to thank you for taking the time to get to understand this in a very intricate way. a lot of people have not been in as many meetings as we sat and where you -- i don't know how you do it, but you seem to be an expert

on so many, many things. i know this is your passion. i want to thank you. it was such a positive note for bipartisanship and shows what we can do when we work together. i also i also want to thank you for inviting our witnesses who are here to testify about personal experience obtaining health insurance after we passed the affordable care act. i would like to welcome you, mr. kayfor. mr. chairman, i no we may disagree today about the affordable care act, but i hope we we will do it in a respectful way based on substance and the evidence before the community. in 2010 the landmark affordable care act to give millions of people health insurance. we've been insurance

companies from discriminating against people with pre-existing conditions. we conditions. we established the significant new measures to hold down healthcare cost command we provided extra assistance to those who needed it. today based on the evidence before us the aca is working millions of people are now covered through the exchanges. according to the new england journal of medicine the rate of uninsured has dropped by over four percentage points since last year. that is a 26% 6 percent reduction in the ranks of the uninsured in just one year. the evidence also shows that the aca is bending the cost curve, the growth of natural healthcare spending decreased to 3.6 percent last year. that is the lowest rate on

record since the 1960s. in addition, reforms of healthcare delivery methods have saved $12 billion by reducing the number of hospital acquired positions. despite these clear benefits republicans have spent the last four years doing everything in their power to repeal the affordable care act, deluded, undermine it, and oppose it. this this has become one of there key political goals. they have taken 53 votes to repeal. last year they shut down the government for 16 16 days in a failed attempt to delay of supplementation. and our committee today we will hold our 29th hearing on the affordable care act. that is a stunning number, more than two dozen hearings

, but not one, one, not one has helped to implement the aca more effectively more efficiently it it pains me to imagine the good we could have accomplished had we devoted that same amount of time and resources to more constructive efforts. so i'm one what could have been. unfortunately, this hearing is no different. as far as i can tell we are here today to beat up on jonathan gruber for stupid -- i mean, i mean, absolutely stupid comments he made over the past few years and then drill and grill administrator marilyn tavenner about what appears to be an inadvertent mistake in recording aca enrollment numbers. this may be good political theater, but it we will not

help a single american get health insurance. it will not help a single person get well. it will not help a single person get the care that they need. let me be clear, i am extremely frustrated with doctor jonathan gruber statement. they were irresponsible, incredibly disrespectful, and did not reflect reality and they were, indeed, insulting. i was in congress when this law was debated. doctor gruber does not speak for me or the chairman of the other committee who worked tirelessly on this bill. we debated this legislation for nearly a year before it was finally passed and signed by the president. we held 79 hearings and markups in the house of representatives alone. never once did i believe or

did anyone suggest that we were somehow hiding our goals from the american people. worst of worst of all, doctor gruber's statements gave republicans a public relations gift in their relentless political campaign to tear down the aca and eliminate health care for millions of americans. many republicans now allege some kind of democratic conspiracy citing the praise for doctor gruber's work from president obama and other democrats, but that, too, is, is completely wrong. let me highlight some additional praise. the following thanks and i quote, jonathan gruber and mit devoted hours and hours to essential economic models that statement was not from president obama but from the republican nominee for

president in 2012, mitt romney. he thanked he thanked our -- doctor gruber personally at a signing ceremony in massachusetts in 2,006. a day earlier mitt romney wrote an op-ed in the "wall street journal" entitled healthcare for everyone, we found a way. this is what he wrote. jonathan gruber of mit, economic metric model of the population and with input, my in-house team questions the numbers. governor romney said this. because health insurance will now be affordable and subsidized we insist that everyone purchase health insurance from one of our private insurance companies as though all massachusetts citizens would have health insurance. the goal of democrats and

republicans and has been achieved by a bipartisan effort through market reform as i close, this is exactly what the aca was modeled on and was supposed to be. governor romney was wrong about one thing. that goal was not shared by republicans. for the last four years house republicans have been trying to repeal the aca, but they never explain what they we will replace it with what they we will replace it with. in a few weeks republicans will control both houses of congress, and they we will be out of excuses. governing responsibly does not mean eliminating essential healthcare protection for our constituents with no alternative. it means promoting the health and economic security of

millions of americans who desperately need help. with that i want to thank you for your service,, and i yield back. >> i thank the gentleman. i would remind all members that community's jurisdiction does not include any changes to the affordable care act other than those involving transparency and reporting. this committee's jurisdiction jurisdiction and is 29 hearings have been related not to whether we like the affordable care act or not but, in fact, whether or not you are getting the transparency and proper reporting required for which this committee is known. with that i would ask mr. ari goldmann to please rise to also take the oath. raise your right hand please. do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the

whole truth, and nothing but the truth? please be seated. it is now your turn. >> chairman, ranking member, distinguished members of the committee, thank committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify voluntarily today. i am pleased to be able to address some statements i have made regarding the affordable care act and the reaction to and interpretations of the statements. i am a professor of economics at mit, not a politician or political advisor. over the past decade i have used an economic micro simulation model to help the number of states and the federal government assess the impact of healthcare report on health care systems, government budgets, and overall economies. i have had the privilege of working for both democratic and republican administrations. i worked extensively with governor romney's administration and the massachusetts legislature to model the impact of governor romney's landmark health reform legislation. i later served as a

technical consultant to the us department of health and human services and provided similar support to both the administration and congress through economic micro simulation modeling of the affordable care act. i did not draft governor romney's health plan, and i, and i was not the architect of president obama's healthcare plan. after the passage amid a series of speeches endeavoring to explain the laws of locations from the perspective of a trained economist. over over the past few weeks the number of videos have emerged. in a search of these videos i am shown making a series of glib, thoughtless, and sometimes downright insulting comments. i apologize, but the ongoing attention paid to these videos had made me realize that a fuller accounting is necessary. i would like to begin by apologizing sincerely for the offending comments to read in some cases i mean i made uninformed and glib comments about the political process behind healthcare reform. i am not an expert on politics.

in other cases i simply made mean and insulting comments insulting comments which i'm called for in any context. i sincerely apologize for conjecturing for doing so in such a disparaging fashion. it is never appropriate to make oneself seem smarter or more important by dineen -- demeaning others. i knew better, i, i know better, i'm embarrassed, and i am sorry. i would like to clarify some misconceptions about the content and context of my comments. let me be very clear. i do not think the affordable care act was passed in the nontransparent fashion. the issues the issues i raised in my comments such as redistribution of risk and the structure of the cadillac tax roundly debated before the law was passed. reasonable people can disagree about the merits of these policies, but it is completely clear that these issues were debated thoroughly during the drafting and passage of the aca.

i would like to clarify some misperceptions about my january 2012 remarks concerning the availability of tax credits and states that did not set up there own health insurance exchanges. the portion of these rocks that have received so much attention amidst a critical component of the context in which i was speaking. the possibility that the federal government for whatever reason might not create a federal exchange. if that if that were to occur, and only in that context the only way that states could guarantee their citizens would receive tax credits would be to set up there own exchange. i have a long-standing and well-documented belief that health reform legislation in general and the aca in particular must include mechanisms for residents and all states to obtain tax credits. indeed, my micro simulation model expressly models that the citizens of all states be eligible for tax credits whether served directly by a state exchange or by federal exchange.

i am not an elected official, nor am i a political advisor. i am an economist who ran a complex micro simulation model to help republicans and democratic politicians and their advisors understand the impact their policies would have on healthcare systems. ..

i am doing pretty well. when i turn 26 i decided to abandon a nascent career in nonprofit fund-raising in the decision was bolstered bolstered by the unbridled optimism of a 20-something living in one of the most inspiring cities in the world. i didn't consider because i didn't have too common in mandeville pre-existing conditions that they forced him navigate and intimidating and unfriendly health insurance marketplace. i found great satisfaction

working in the restaurant industry. although i worked full time then at a restaurant with more than 15 employees i was not offered any benefits. undeterred i ventured into the individual market applied to several brand-name companies. one after another they turned me down. ultimately one company offered me a plan for $450 a month and disheartened from the prior rejections i enrolled even though they refuse to cover any prescriptions. i conducted a basic cost-benefit analysis and decided i would rather be underinsured than not insured at all. my two years with this ensure felt like an unending morbid exceedingly expensive joke. claims were routinely rejected due to processing errors usually with no explanation. still is better than nothing and then i received a notification that as of january 2014 my plan would be discontinued. i will admit i wasn't looking forward to participating are going forward in the process of

of enrolling in the d.c. health care exchange as many people can agree with probably but despite the technical glitches and dead ends i applied. i contacted a navigator at the clinic who referred me to a broker. he answered the many questions i had about each individual policy i was considering. with his help and that no cost to me they took just an hour to sign the first sober level ppo plan and in terms of premiums alone this reduce my costs by 60% which means i'm saving over $200 each month. i'm able to keep the providers who might have build trusting relationships over the years. all my pre-existing conditions are covering over the past year i've had lower day-to-day out-of-pocket cast to manage my condition could i estimate i saved over $5000 in all which in addition to my part-time work as a waiter has made my decision to career my -- pursue my career more viable. i believe it's quintessentially

american. thanks to the aca i think and take control of my own patron said the finding and staying at an undesirable job because i can afford to sacrifice my employee sponsored insurance program no longer need to resort to woefully inadequate coverage and later this week i had him by my to broker to look at my options for 2015 and i have a conference i will be able to shop for a plan without fear of rejection or exclusion for coverage. i can do the research to find a plan that will meet my needs. finally when i'll plan was canceled i thought i was going to get similar coverage of the same cost. i didn't expect it to be as good as it was. the unexpected thrill i felt after i enrolled was not only because i'm cover but also i am participating in a part of history. at the end of the day i'm ordering ordering man with a good education for my families of the affordable care act can help me i believe it can help anyone. thank you very much for your

time. >> thank you. mr. goldmann are you receiving a subsidy at all on the silver plan you silver plan it shows? >> no i am not. >> i'm glad you found part-time work even on the past you have found full-time work. ms. tavenner you testified before the committee and you use the terminology in rolled in health care insurance market coverage. is that the appropriate normal way you have always referred to enrollment numbers? >> i don't know that i have an appropriate -- i have cult of the marketplace and aye that health insurance coverage. >> that language allowed you to claim 7.3 billion had you said enrolled in health care plans you would have had to reduce that by at least 40,000. isn't that true? >> i think had i known we had

double double counted the town so i would have corrected that for the september hearing. as i said before that was a mistake. >> you gave what would be considered by anyone to be false and misleading testimony because you are giving data that included 400,000 dental plans. cms previously released separate numbers actually far greater numbers for dental at the time and health care and as those numbers went down they got combined and the language got changed to enrolled in the health insurance coverage so the question is did you have anything to do with the use of that term and were you aware, to two-part question yes or no, were you aware that dental was included in your testimony? >> i was not aware that dental was included in my testimony. >> did you explain why the

health insurance coverage was the term you read in your statement? >> no. cnet thank you. >> mr. gruber i've been accused that i'm going to berate you or something and i hope you won't feel that way when i get done but the night before last i was at the honors where they honored tom hanks famously "forrest gump," the ultimate in successful stupid man. are you stupid? >> i don't think so. >> is an m.i.t. employee a stupid person? >> not to my knowledge. >> zero kcur smart man he said some of the ranking member some really stupid things than you said the same. is that correct? >> the comments i made were really inexcusable. >> i will leave aside the political observations but you did say in the video we played and that everyone else has seen, parts of it you did say in fact if people knew the whole truth they would not have voted for

this. in fact the direction you were going to reality and specifically i want to talk as mr. goldmann as poster child for this he has a sober plant is relatively an inexpensive and it would subsidize it would be even cheaper but the shifting of some people to pay more than they previously did because remember health care went up in price. for mr. goldmann to get a reduction somebody else got not only an increase but an increase to offset his decrease. that is what you are talking about so isn't it true that in fact between the taxes and increases for some that's part of the plan to reduce for people like mr. goldmann? >> first of all i made a critical mistake in trying conjecture with tone of expertise. >> you are an expert on analysis of the numbers and where the cost-shifting goes in your microeconomic analysis and i'm asking u.s. dr. gruber, a smart man and a great institution that

has collected actually over $4 million and various fees and so on your analysis, isn't it true in order for mr. goldmann to get his production and is very happy about it, that in fact it was cost-shifting including the so-called cadillac plans. isn't that true? >> the affordable care set up insurance exchanges which pooled risk for the help in a less healthy. on average average when you count the tax credits individuals receive people are paying less for health insurance. >> trust me people like me are paying more for those because taxes are in fact a cost that is paid. the total cost did not go down. cost-shifting occurred in your model, is not true? >> the amount that individuals have to pay for health insurance on average fell in my model. >> but it didn't fall in reality. let me ask one question and this may be the tougher question for you. you said in these video comments

that essentially you had to deceive in order to get this passed. newer models the 4 million plus dollars that you had m.i.t. received including hundreds of thousands of dollars personally to develop and to provide those models if deception was part of the process by your own statements why should we believe your analysis? why should we not demand to go into the microeconomic analysis and find out whether in fact the $4 million in services you delivered were accurate or whether the books were cooked? >> first of all the amount of money to which you referred has been greatly overstated. he refers to grants received by research institutions and others which i received a small for faction -- fraction. no one has questioned the integrity of the modeling. >> mr. gruber in light of your statements and that's why i'm asking should we question question question our at least have an of the numbers you

delivered actually to massachusetts for that matter to macbook to the federal government based on your statements that in fact if people knew the truth they wouldn't than there was a deception in your own thing. i want to go to the ranking member but is there any reason that you would not approve the idea that there should be independent validation of the numbers you used in light of the statements we have seen you make? >> i think the quality of my number should not be reflected by comments i made where i was conjecturing in my area of expertise. the same time i modeling has been very transparent. i'm happy to ask questions about the model and how it works. >> thank you. i hope this committee and the next congress will insist there be an independent analysis of whether in fact that model would withstand the scrutiny of an audit and without i recognize the ranking member. >> thank you mr. chairman. dr. gruber as i mentioned my in

my opening statement i was very frustrated with your statements. i have got to tell you they were insulting. they were especially harmful because they gave the opponents of the aca apr gifts. you did a great job. he wrapped it up with a bow. this has nothing to do with the substance of this issue. it's just something linked to the aca and future debates. i have to say i listened carefully to your testimony because i wanted to hear exactly what you were going to say. a lot of times witnesses who come before the committee avoid apologizing. so you deserve some credit at least for taking this head-on and taking responsibility for your actions. i know you believe in the aca and you have also worked with governor romney on his health

care bill. is that right? >> yes. >> so my question is this. sitting here today what do you say to those people who are trying to eliminate the aca and who are quoting your statements as a reason to to repeal health care for millions of americans and many of my constituents and people watching us on c-span, what do you say to them? >> i would say that i made a series of inexcusable and offensive comments where i conjectured with a tone of expertise to try to make myself sound smarter by demeaning others and i apologize for that but my flaws as a private citizen not a politician not a political adviser, my flaws as a private citizen should not reflect on a process by which the aca was pastor of the success of outlawed cell. >> administrator tavenner you have come before our administrative committee before and i have complemented you and

your efforts and i do still believe you are a great public servant. on november 20 hhs reported it had overstated the numbers of enrollees by about 380,000. the chairman talked about that in his opening statement trade this was because hhs included people with dental coverage and essentially double counted them. how did that happen? you knew everyone had a microscope on the programs i'm just curious. >> it is a great question. it was an inexcusable mistake and i think in looking at payments made instead of unique individuals recounted individuals who had both medical and dental. i believe we have put processes in place to prevent that from happening again but it should not happen in first place.

>> we understand the mistake has the same effect as dr. gruber's statement, the same thing. he gives aca upon its apr get that they can use on tv shows and elsewhere to attack the aca and it's an unforced political air. somehow i would ask you for the record because everybody's going to ask you the same thing. you are under oath and just tell me did you intend to deceive this committee or the american people when you provided those enrollment numbers? was that your intention? >> i did not. >> you have any reason to believe that anyone on your staff tried to deceive the american people or was this error and advert and? >> i do not believe anyone try to deceive the american people and i believe the error was inadvertent. 6.7 million is a very large

number. we are pleased with that number. this was an inadvertent mistake for which i apologize. >> as a result and mr. goldmann i want to thank you for being here today. and i'm glad you are working and i'm glad you are pursuing your dreams and that's a good thing. as a result of the aca it is the fact that insurance companies can no longer discriminate against people like you, deny you coverage or charge exorbitant rates because of your pre-existing condition. how do you feel about that and i think it's important for people to know what that means. we hear a lot of times the negative stuff particularly this committee but it's good to have somebody who has benefited from us. can you tell us how that makes you feel? >> this isn't them something i've thought about before, all this, before i really loved an

employer that gave me benefits because it wasn't something i thought was an issue. i take that for granted like a lot of people took that for granted. the health care coverage i had growing up and as a young adult in my 20s was great and then when i decided to pursue something different, something of my own making, something typically american and i know longer had coverage became it came as a shock. so to suddenly have that inability to have my own little pre-existing conditions that many people have not be covered was a very strange and unusual feeling to me. it was not a good one. so to be able to enroll through the aca and to still pay my part

but now that i'm not being discriminated against based on something that americans have come it doesn't matter what they are particularly it was a relief. i didn't realize how much of a relief it would be until i got enrolled with a good health care provider as opposed to a provider that. >> what was wrong with your insurance before you got this insurance? you had previous insurance, right? >> yes my preceding insurance. the premiums were almost twice as high which in itself it's a supply and demand issue. i can make guesses but i will say the coverage i had regardless of how much i was paying of a monthly premium was insultingly inadequate and not just because i wasn't covered but i had difficulty getting any

sort of response from the company itself. so yes prescriptions and office visits related to my pre-existing conditions were uncovered and that required out-of-pocket benefits but even the stuff that was covered was difficult to get reimbursed for. >> thank you and with the ranking members indulgence ms. tavenner i failed to ask one thing. can you staff provide any information related to the preparation of those talking points in the subpoena? that was part of what was asked or not delivered. >> we supplied information to you. i will go back and work with the staff to see what else we can give you. we will try to work with you. >> the discovery asked for information related to the false statement that was made by you certainly inadvertently and he called a mistake that we asked

for the creation of it so we could see who created it, who put the numbers together and it took the staff pointed minustuh find the error. it wasn't hard to find so the question is and i will be brief, can you ask your people to the extend that authority been pulled and we believe if we issue a subpoena our people work with your people. they knew this is what we wanted. could we have it because we have people on both sides of ththe diocese don't have those facts and it would be the last hearing of this year so i appreciate you want to get it to us in the future but it's crippling to a great extent to have a hearing in which the main subject of the hearing which is how did we get misled and who was involved in the process of creating those talking points we don't have it. the question is can you instructor people to the extent that there has been any polling of the document to get it over to us the people on the dais can answer those questions.

i know that mr. gowdy likes working off of facts, not fiction. >> yes sir we will work with you. >> mr. chairman one thing i fail to say. when i was complimenting you earlier. >> you are not taking any of that back? >> no, no i wanted to take a moment to express my deep appreciation and respect for your staff and for my staff. i know a lot of people will be moving onto on to new jobs but these are folks that work night and day trying to present the very best that they can to this committee and to the american people and i want to take a moment to thank them for all that they have done. this is a key to my history and i appreciate it. >> thank you them because otherwise comments i'm going to pile on one sentence mr. cummings. we do have the best staffs on the hill. they do countless thousands of

hours have transcribed interviews. they pore over more documents than any committee and the congress and they are able to qualitatively search for and find in ig reports and obviously in working with whistleblowers things that no other committee can find. i think that is a genuine statement for both sides. there's no better committee staff than we are honored to have and i thank you for bringing that up. now go to to the german from ohio mr. turner. >> thank you mr. chairman. mr. gruber you have said your statements were inexcusable and insulting. i certainly understand when someone gets caught saying something that is inflammatory how you might want to recant it however some of the things that you said were substandard play bass and although they may be inexcusable and insulting they were said. in the end they may be true.

i want to walk you through some of the statements that you made that were substandard in nature. you said you did complex microsimulation modeling. it sounds like a relatively basic model. you take from wanting it to another. it's a basic equation of wealth redistribution and that's called a tax. you have made many statements about the obamacare plan is being a tax and i want to go through this. i won't remind you this is not the casual conversation you have had in the conference is where you have consulted the american voter. this is truly a hearing where you took an oath. you said on march 16, 2011 the only way we could take it on was by mislabeling it calling it a tax on insurance plan. we all know it's a tax on people who hold insurance plans. on jerry eight -- generating the set if you don't set up an

exchange i mean citizens don't get the tax credits for citizens will pay the tax and support the bill. october 302012 he said we just tax the insurance companies and they pass on the higher prices. it's very clear you know i'm that is when he went on to insult the american voter the fact that they could understand that basic equation. october 17 he said this bill was written in a torture way to make sure cbo did not score the band-aid as taxes. now i know mr. gruber you believe your statements were inexcusable and insulting but they do appear to be true. you are not here recanting today your statements with respect to the tax aspect of obamacare are you? >> i'm here today to say any conjectures i made. >> this is not a conjecture mr. gruber. conjecture is i believe someone may have been thinking perhaps they were, perhaps it was. this is your straight up statement. is your purpose today to recant

obamacare as a tax? >> is my purpose today to come forward and elaborate and straighten out the interpretation of the series of comments i made and to apologize. >> excellent, let's do that then. mr. gruber you made the statement, did you not? >> i don't recall exactly. >> one of them was on video. you recall that one? >> yeah. >> these statements and we wanted them for the record and i can imagine and overcall your own statements because the american voter has seen them over and over again as you call them stupid. do you deny making the statements even though you don't recall them? do you deny calling obamacare a tax? >> if? >> if you are reading mike's will "i do not deny it. >> you are not here to recant it or deny it. >> i'm here to explain a number of those comments were made in a tone of expertise that i don't have.

>> mr. gruber do you know what a tax is. you have extra nice -- expertise in economics. you know what a tax is? you would not deny the statements that you made that obama carries a tax? >> obama carries a large piece of legislation with many parts. >> is one of those one of the sports a tax mr. gruber? >> there are some taxes and obamacare. >> a present argued obamacare was not a tax before it went to the u.s. supreme court as to whether or not obamacare what's tax than the administration argued that it is a tax to build us a bit from it being declared unconstitutional. i would assume you agree agree that obamacare's provisions include taxes, right? >> the u.s. supreme court ruled on a particular provision of obamacare. >> you do not disagree with them that they are elements of obamacare that constitute a tax? >> i don't agree with their conclusion about the mandate.

>> different than what you said that these hearings but not a question for you that i would like you to think back. this bill was written in a tortured way to make sure cbo did not score the individual mandate as taxes. did you ever speak to anyone in the administration to acknowledge that you were explained that to you or who assigned a problem with the construct that we have to draft this in a way so we make sure cbo did not score the mandate as taxes and you are under oath mr. gruber. did anyone in the administration have that conversation with you? >> that was an inexcusable statement. >> is a factual statement you're making to do anyone any have a conversation with you? >> i do not recall using the word tortured. >> did they have a conversation with you that it had to be drafted in a way that the cbo did not score it in tax is? did anyone acknowledge it or

assign aspects of the mac construct? >> i actually do not recall. >> mr. chairman thank you. >> thank you. we now go to the gentlelady from new york. >> thank you. i want to remind my colleagues that passage of the affordable care act was in fact an open and extremely transparent process. we had here in the house over 79 hearings, almost 100 hours of hearings and prior to the affordable care act we have to remember that there were roughly 48 million americans including 2.6 million new yorkers who are uninsured. there is even more good news coming out of new york were insurance rates for individuals are more than 50% lower than they were before the state's marketplace plan began. and i want to say there've been

many reports who have said that the acc contributed to the slow growth rates in national health expenditures over the past few years. .. >>

>> and where they are reliant to on small volume markets. with payment to quality we are related having hospitals report quality vs. a volume of the procedure. and hospitals in general are reporting a more profit side. commenting we have the lowest rate of growth since 1960 with health care costs kid you elaborate how that

aca is slowing down cost? what is contributing to it? >> going back to the hospital and the growth rate has been flat to use the point of being negative on the operations side we have seen the growth rates on physician visits and we have seen of slowing expenditure rate. >> could you comment on the affordable care act payment reforms with the explanation as a factor to lower-cost? >> yes. the biggest thing we could do is to expand to physicians and other

settings and other skilled nursing facilities or otherwise that the procedure is volume oriented without, measures that is part of the exchange. >> for the affordable care act reforms a considerable factor from other complications as well as the fall of 8 percent did readmission rates for patients. >> yes. there is more work to do and we will continue that through the medicare and medicaid area. >> he believes these reforms have cut costs or had a spill over effect through the entire health care system and if so, how? >> yes. we work closely to allied

medicare and medicaid with a private insurance market and we were closely with those issuers to make sure that they will work with one set of quality criteria so we work together. >> this is good news for the american consumer and health care in our country. >> thank you. >> great job on this committee mr. chairman it is a tough task. ms. tavenner, when we started all of this i heard between 44 and 45 million people that were uninsured -- uninsured that was a general figure. is that what you estimate? >> i don't have that number. >> you should have the number particularly in your position. but i will take 44.

you gave us statistics it may that signed up that was revised and you apologized today for the error but that is 6.nine. there is between 45 million people that have insurance with insurance coverage. and would you agree? >> i don't know that number. >> again, you should this is important. >> did you have four or 5 million people i am one of those. >> one reason don't have more ignitions it in life.

but for most americans unless you are involved in another health care system your premiums have gone up i know one family that has pre-existing conditions they are gaining the service -- the system they get this service then dropped the care. that is also going down with admissions one reason for less admissions and less spending. mr. gruberr, you are one of the architects of this plan? >> you did the modeling you were a contractor? there were about 60 contractors? what was your payment. >> $400,000.

>> $400,000? that was a nice way to go. did you compete or was that a sole source contracts i am told? i will leave it at that you have the sole source contract that is a nice way to go. then you went out to eight states to have contact with them afterwards? >> guess i worked as a number of states after words. >> and then you got $400,000 a pop from them? my estimate is used to about 2.5 million dollars per month? or all the money from health care fraud your involvement from eight states? >> i don't recall the exact number. >> you cannot recall.

i can. it would be helpful if you could decide the amount of money i am told it is over 1.5 million tickets back to people better still uninsured according to the document i have got 41 million people still don't have health care. would you agree with that number? >> i don't know which documents you refer to. >> that we had presented the 41 million americans don't have health care so we have covered between three and 4 million and raise people's premiums. >> if you look at it outside sources they will stay the uninsured rate. >> we have over 40 million people without health insurance and would like to

divide the billions of dollars spent on this program if for those to take advantage pfiffner and enrich themselves and still 47 million people? we also increased the age but do we a the bureaucracy? the another contractor it was for over $1 billion and people came to work supposedly to verify the information but never worked. so people were paid not to work and to help design the system that profit and took the money.

that is not a very good story. >> i think the gentleman. you did i use the form that we provided and as a result we don't have the revenue that is the state revenue that is federal revenue we supply grants so would you supplement exhibits the with your state revenue they would also have received that is affordable care act related? >> i am sure my a council will take that up. >> was asking you to agree to provide. >> then he will discuss that with my counsel. >> you are not agreeing to provide it? >> i am not agreeing or disagreeing. >> it is a requirement before you testified because

you did not use our form and we don't have all of your income that is up factors so please take a moment a short break so you can affirmatively answer that. [inaudible conversations] >> my attorney tells me it is and in compliance with house disclosure rules. >> then i a request to the witness provide the committee the amount of money received from the federal government and any other health care payments that he received. >> i apologize if is a technical rule of the capacity -- committee. >> it is a simple request. >> the committee is all come

to work with my counsel of that. >> why can't you tell us? how much did you get from state and federal taxpayers? he is under oath. we don't have to wait he is under oath. how much to the taxpayers pay? >> again, we have a witness. i will go on to other questioning and we will see what we could get for a determination but at this point i am advised this is not an accurate and full disclosure so we do disagree with your counsel. >> maybe during the course of the harry and you can confer with counsel. >> so i will go on and do this behind-the-scenes. >> and i will seek

additional answers. >> your recognized. 54 year french shipping and service that you have shown as americans we you have shot your valise been there and it is very difficult. but mr. gruber i accept your apology and will not question you further about your statement we have heard enough of those. ms. tavenner but the work

cited of the affordable health care act maybe excluded our expectations with those numbers so all i could say if the administration is on a budget i think the american people will understand for those who were looking for dental care or those who signed up period because that is not what we were looking for at the time. and mr. gruber i appreciate you step forward but in the preface to questioning you did testify you're not being subsidized and if that is the case unlike millions of other young people simply because you are young is the

very nature of insurance. i know this is gary is taking place in the enrollment period but you had a deputy administrator that is coded to say the vast majority of shoppers had a positive experience is that your understanding? given in the fall paws of the first few months? >> yes. during the second gentleman period and wheat meet weekly

with issuers for perspective as well. i am sure it isn't perfect. >> are you doing the kinds of customer experience that you can quantify? >> is of little early obviously but we are doing surveys through the call center and through healthcare.gov. >> i interesting and you now have quarter of the million?

is that the case? >> yes. with our testing that is what we aspire to in a freer handling that type of volume. >> open enrollment in 2014 of those submitting applications for coverage than 755,000 elected a plan. how does that compare with the first few weeks of open enrollment and 2013? >> as you might remember the first few weeks we were dealing with the web site that was far from ideal so the numbers were very low. we know that individuals will wait until the deadline to sign up. the first one is december 15

and so this weekend will be high volume that began february 15 when open enrollment closes during 2015. >> in light of how easy it is to make errors that you would be called on that you testified in front of this committee and he pledged to address at that time 22 technical recommendations the gao made. were these recommendations addressed before the beginning of open enrollment this year? >> yes. and then there were six other categories. the only thing that is not totally complete is the operating agreement and with

the peace corps we have a contractual agreement. >> i think your time is expired. >> the ranking member said that these are unforced errors and they said people would say it is something different is intentional deception if you like your plan you can keep that particular picture dark you can't keep him. premiums will go down $2,500 on average the web site will work the website is secure and ms. tavenner tells us 7. three enrollees but they forgot to include the dental plan that we have mr. gruber to testify before congress about obamacare and did undisclosed he was being

paid by the aba met administration and deception at its highest form then of course, we now have if davis videos they use taxpayer dollars then when obamacare became a law he made fun of them. by the way, ed mr. gruber how much were you paid by the federal and state taxpayers regarding your lectures on obamacare? >> i have disclosed for the committee as my counsel required. >> not what you disclosed but give me a dollar amount. they would like to know how much they paid you when they were made fun of by the very dollars you make fun of them, to you paid? >> that committee key and take that up with counsel. >>.

>> you are under oath. how much you were paid. >> the committee can take this up with my counsel. >> i have one other. >> and the gentleman suspend ? >> i will advise that council says they're not available to clear up the errors of omissions in the gentleman's finding and it does require grants and contracts and all revenue we only be seized about $100,000 far less than testimony of disclosures. as a result the disclosure is not complete so i would admonish mr. gruber your answer is to answer the questions or we will seek to bring you back with full disclosure in order to get all the other numbers.

it is your choice council can advise you but by your own testimony we find your submission deficient and your counsel is ill-advised to say it is sufficient because italy includes grants if you have admitted under oath to have contracts. so those are not listed and you are deficient. again, this is the last hearing so if i don't have to recess and come back again i would like to so please do not make this drag on longer answer to your best of your recollection and we will excepted amendment or addendum at a later date but this gentleman is entitled to have all questions answered you took an oath to say you would tell the truth whole truth not only the truth that your council says will be discussed but all

questions and all answers. if mr. cummings were sitting here or anybody else you would expect no less. >> i have a political fact document that has all kinds of numbers and they go into this in depth and i will open this as part of the record. >> without objection. >> the gentleman may continue. >> i think and have a question on the table i am

waiting for an answer. >> i will report all federal moneys received for this fiscal year i receive no federal contracts. >> i don't care where you are informed by how much money did the taxpayers state or federal have you lied to them? >> the fiscal year in previous. >> no, no, no. total. id is a five-year ordeal. >> i don't recall the total. >> we want that information. mr. gruber in a strange way i appreciate what you said in the video because for the first time somebody came clean to tell the truth so here is my one question i want to get to. "politico" reported that steve ratner called you the man in "washington post"

said you were the key architect of obamacare and of "the new york times" said you went to capitol hill to help congress draft obamacare got there to help the people on capitol hill get a right you are the expert the president said he had stolen ideas from rio to draft obamacare you've visited 21 times and of the president in the oval office. a few weeks ago with the video's surfaced what was your reaction when the president of the united states said you were just some advisor? you are the man and the architect at the white house 21 times the president stole fraud your ideas, you are the key guy than the video service to the president

throws you a beer the bus to say you are just a random advisor. what was your reaction? >> my reaction in was that my job was to be an adviser and that is what i was. >> you are enrolling people of the federal exchange's ms. tavenner how many thus far? >> i don't have that number before me but i can get you the numbers to make even if you did we may not believe that based on past experience. klay familiar with the lawsuit came verses for well? >> i am familiar with that case. >> for ruling goes against what mr. gruber said in the videos that they cannot give subsidies to their enrollees then had did then explaining to people setting up that

this could change in a matter of months? are you letting them know they may have to pay more and have a tax liability that they don't have today? you have to speak up. >> nothing has changed for consumers. >> gore you telling people things may change we have a pretty big court case. >> is not a close case. >> ice said maybe are you giving them a heads up that things could change. >> i will not speculate. >> are you telling enrollees' that things could change in a few months? >> nothing has changed. >> you are not preparing them for the fourfold increase? >> as chairman? day is think is responsible to not tell the millions of

the enrollees to not tell them that things may change dramatically with the tax liability premiums could increase fourfold? >> you may answer. >> and i have told you this is not a closed case and i will not speculate the lot is pretty clear. >> i will take that as of know they were not telling us because of the statements you have made. >> i said nothing has changed for consumers 82 sign up. >> getting into the court case. >> eleanor i am not trying to get into it the people are entitled to know why she was not telling them and she made that clear why she decided not to.

>> that is responsible. we don't know. >> i think the gentlelady i apologize. the gentlelady from washington d.c. has already gone. mr. klay was not noted but he can go first he is a delightful gentleman breaking to go first for a long time. he will wait. >> i appreciate that. in my former life actually negotiated health care plans through collective bargaining our is president of united auto workers union and we were having a lot of problems in massachusetts with some provisions of the

affordable care act especially the so-called cadillac tax. now you and i know for a very long time until the affordable care attacked health care was not taxed. so i sat down with good employers often times they were more willing to give an increase in the health benefits instead of the wages because wages were taxed and health care was not. but now as a result of negotiating 75 years on that basis we have you do said had built up plans for employees and instead of taking money in the wages or

in the benefit plan we have most of the health care plan their subject to the cadillac tax today even though it isn't in effect until 2018. so now what i see is some players are running away for the health care obligations because now there is a 40% tax over the limits established of the aca. i have four really good employers that sam will be killed that they are trying to get out they are reorganizing and cutting

companies and half so now i have the unions and those that were in favor of this bill asking you to repeal it. i am a union member a former union president and i have the union saying repeal this. fortunately for me i voted against it. unlike some people i actually sat down and read it. i had a full staff whole big me with questions. -- helping me with questions. so people thought they would benefit. how do i fix this so

previously good employers would continue to reduce that? because they all work 52 weeks a year they get laid off, of bad weather, a broken time so they needed the format to provide for their families to get health insurance and now these employers are running away from their health care obligations because they see the tax coming down the road in 2018 and some are refusing the collective bargaining. because now they're told coach tuesday exchange. we're out of the health care business. how do we help them?

>> i am not an expert on collective bargaining agreements. >> i guess. >> is the way that cadillac tax was designed there is no reason they cannot offer that. >> for every dollar over the al lin and they pay $1.40. >> been no reason they cannot provide that under the cadillac tax gimmick they're competing with other employers on a bid if we are bidding on a construction project in and you have 49 and i have 150 mine includes $13 an hour for health care. but your bid is at $0 an hour. how do i went for every man i have to put $13 an hour but $0 on your is? i am out of business.

>> there is a longstanding. >> i can afford that? for every man on that job by have to put $13 an hour on my did and you can put zero to send your people to the exchange? because how does that work? >> there is a longstanding problem of employers to do or do not offer health care and other is a free rider assessment. >> it does not do it. >> recognize the -- the gentleman from utah. >> you also did work for the cbo? >> was on the cbo revisory council i don't remember when that started it was

2007. >> when did you stop working for the cbo? >> i was on the council through 2008? >> you mean 2011? is that correct? >> were you on the advisory council? >> i do not know when they took me off. >> were you on the panel in 2010? >> i did not attend any meetings. >> to have communications? >> yes. >> you did not attend meetings but you did have communication? how many times since obama took office did you go to the white house? >> i don't recall exactly. >> board and 20? >> no. >> i believe it was. how many times you think it

was? going to the white house is the significant event. >> primarily to the executive office building to meet with his staff. >> did you meet with the president? >> once during discussions. >> how long was that meeting ? >> meeting that lasted maybe an hour and a half with 20 people and i spoke five minutes. >> was mr. l mundorf there? >> yes. >> what was your capacity in the meeting? >> to talk about options for health care cost control. >> were you there as the cbo member? mac neither purpose as an expert. >> but some of the advice you. somebody paid you? >> nobody paid me to attend the meeting. >> we will explore that more. mr. gruber, will you provide

copies of all the work products related to the healthcare.gov or any other health care reform proposals >> once again you can take that up with my counsel. >> no, no, no. the council works for you under oath, please provide this information to this committee. >> once again taken up with my counsel. >> no no-no no mr. gruber, we are asking you. you were paid by the american tax paper - - people. will you or will you not provide that information to this committee? >> taken up with my counsel. >> mr. chairman we have to get to the bottom of this i think members of both sides should demand that those documents be part of the public record. what are you hiding? why want to give those to us where we not entitled?

>> i am on an expert on the rules to the council is. >> why will you not give us those documents? >> i will not. >> who owns those documents? he paid for them? >> i am not sure. >> you don't know? were you paid by the american taxpayer? democrats had a contract for micros simulation modeling. >> was there any work to do actually come up with documents and have discussions. >> the large number of discussions bennett we provide copies for all the state agency exchanges or any other health care reform group? >> once again take that a picasso. >> provide copies of communication are emails are

copies of discussion was the federal or state officials related to the affordable care act exchanges our health care reform proposals? to read the committee can take that up with my counsel >> tidied address or a note for i am talking to you right now under oath. paid by the american taxpayer will you or will you not provide that information? >> take that up with a council. why do you believe you are entitled not to give that? >> i don't know the rules. i am not a lawyer. >> deal have documents? >> do i own documents? >> you have documents? >> guess i have documents. >> you're not willing to give them to us? >> i have those in front of me. >> those related to the question that i just ask you mr. gruber. do not understand the

question? >> i performed work for the federal government there is work product from the work i do not understand the rules and you can take it up with my counsel. >> this is terribly frustrating for gore hope we get some cooperation novel side. >> and it does appear mr. gruber you have regressed in your ability you answer questions better than any politician sitting here today and i would contend your attorney is not giving an adequate representation at this time. this committee has the right to have information that has been requested. you have progressed from not talking off the cuff and making stupid statements to be entirely political to the

point that you are hindering us to carry out our responses. >> mr. chairman? i would ask if we could consider a subpoena to compel the witness if he is not willing to do it on a voluntary basis. >> i would recommend we take that up with the committee chair whose portrait hangs behind us. i would concur but i will not step into that place at this time. >> i now recognize the gentleman from virginia. >> mr. gruber maybe this is of a good lesson for all academics the consequences to show one's superior knowledge that i have long

felt watching this committee and operation to have the post over the mantle for the witness to answer at their own peril now we talk about subpoenas employers and documents how often did you go to though white house? has a familiar refrain of how witnesses have been handled and the irs has been implanting device is into their brains. so you get the special treatment but you open the door for those remarks that you have apologized for. >> i did apologize for those excusable -- and excusable remarks. >> how often did you go to the mitt romney administration office when you were revising them romney administration on

what was the model for obamacare? >> i don't recall, dozens of times. >> teeeight you ever meet with governor romney? >> just one. >> just like obama? says that make you the architect of romney care in massachusetts? >> i was economic adviser just like it was to president obama. >> you have documents from those years that we could subpoena? >> withdraw the last part. >> to have documents from the romney period? >> i would think if we have a broad subpoena suggested by my friends that we encompass all of the romney documents that mr. gruber was involved because i want to see if this is a pattern that is not limited just to

the president not just as the antecedent but romney care was the model. is that not true? >> i believe that is true. >> the tax consequences you can be fined if you don't comply and that is through massachusetts. >> by the way of what happened to the uninsured percentage? did it go up? >> the rates of the uninsured fell by two-thirds or 3%. >> 3%? how many other states have that great? >> by far that is the lowest in the nation. >> lowest in the nation. also the fines were so relatively modest and that

employers were tripping over each other to divest themselves of the employee plans to go to the state exchange. did that happen? >> no. employers and sponsored insurance rose by 10 percent after birds. >> can you explain the interpretation of your statement that says the federal backstop will although it has been slow to rule that out because they want to squeeze the states but it is important to remember politically if you our state in dull set up an exchange then the citizens don't get the tax credit but proponents using these remarks to further the argument for those states did not set up the on exchange is that a correct interpretation of the lot and your statement? >> i don't believe it is

correct interpretation of either. my remarks while porgy worded and much too glib and at the point i gave that statement in 2012 it was not clear how effective the federal exchanges would be or who would even we in the white house. as a result they to be concerned would not be implemented. >> do you agree though law makes taxpayers in every state regard this is the federal government runs the exchange? >> to interpret the law, yes. >> mr. chairman i would like unanimous consent to enter a record of letter from cbo director and an article by a tom hartman -- and henry waxman. >> without objection.

>> recognize myself for five minutes. its at least to me it is apparent today with what we have heard that americans now know that government transparency under this administration simply means what you see is not what you get. ms. tavenner do you believe obamacare was crafted in a way to be transparent to the taxpayer? >> i certainly believe the of work i have been a part of the last five years has been transparent. >> that was obamacare crafted in a way to be transparent? >> i was not here during the crafting it. >> you say to is bertillon dash transparent with its implementation and? you have been here for that. >> we have tried to be

transparent and provide documents including those we sent yesterday. we have already provided 135,000 pages of documents and provided more than 1,000 transcribed interviews we have tried to. >> but not completely. >> whenever we can. >> another term in this hearing whenever we can, i don't recall, probably recall, probably, those are reoccurring terms. mr. gruber, the above the administration's promise the american people 37 times that if you like your plan you can keep your plan. when you were working on the law, did you believe, a mr. gruber, did you believe that nobody would lose their plan due to obamacare? >> i believe that would not

affect the vast majority of americans. >> did you believe no one has the president said with the is a plan they liked? >> as i said it would not affect the majority of americans but it is true that some people might have to upgrade the plans because it was not comprehensive. >> so they could not keep their plan even if they liked it? >> why did the president makes that representation if it was not true? that they could not keep their plan or have to upgrade or change? >> five not of political advisor. >> in 2013 article in "the new yorker". not everyone that liked the plan could keep the plan. when you knew the of

representation such as this instance did you ever voice any concerns? >> i interpreted that comments to say for the vast majority of americans it would not affect the relationships. >> you are the economist with the of model that you describe as entirely accurate. a learned professor we don't take that away but the president said 37 times if you like the plan you can keep it. of my constituency of 800,000 people one leukemia patient who had a plan she liked could not keep that.

and she is not stupid. she could not keep the plan. a young pastor and wife and a local church but as of yesterday could not keep the plan they had and could not find one that is set before them. a hard-working young man in my district spent his entire weekend try to get on to obamacare but as of yesterday morning i watched him cry -- try to get a plan through the web site and still could not get it. he is not stupid numerous constituents that while they may have found the plan

under obamacare that they could like gore keep it was reasonable in cost to pay the deductibles or copays or the prescription in drug costs they could not afford it and i would suggest transparency is what you see is not what you get. my time has expired i now recognize mr. carr right. >> thanks to the witnesses for appearing today and gnashing their teeth over the affordable care act administrator, ms. tavenner you were not there and i was not in a the congress for

the voting of they see a. but i think what the american public wants of us to take a lot to improve it and make it work for everybody. and that is why it pays me to have to secure the hearings while may criticize those who may have said something understated are overstated the fax. people are traveling through the world is through their lives underdo by excessive concerns for the truth and maybe mr. gruber get your life you are one of them but there was the chance for repentance for renewal of life and i hope you take that. but to pick up