[inaudible conversations]

right now we want to meet and talk with author >>host: we want to meet and talk with author mr. stevenson. we want to learn a little bit about you the equal justice initiative >> a private nonprofit human rights organization that provides legal services mostly to incarcerated people in the deep south. we represent children prosecuted as adults and are trying to change the way we talk about race and poverty. we focus mostly on criminal justice reform. >> headquartered in montgomery, alabama. how many people on death row? >> actually the largest death row per capita in the country. country. it is unique in that it is the only state that has a

provision that allows elected trial judges to override juries. juries. we have about 200 people on death row. >> we invited you want to talk about the book. your first book. >> the story focuses on walter mcmillan. there was a murder. a young white woman was murdered. the police could not solve the crime. a great deal of pressure. they were talking about impeaching the sheriff, sheriff, and we think they decided to arrest someone, and walter mcmillan became that man. he was having an interracial affair with a young white woman which brought him to

the attention of law enforcement, so he was arrested and put on death row before the trial. the only case where i've had a a client put on death row. i was shocked by that fact. i was shocked by the fact that at the time of the crime he was 11 miles away with 20 people from his church raising money. it would have been so much better if he had been by himself. we feel like we have been convicted. the third the third thing that got me plugged into this case,, as soon as i filed a notice of appearance i got a call from the judge who told me he did not want me involved.

he was convicted and sentenced to death. we got involved after the sentence. the book is about our efforts to expose his wrongful conviction. i talk about the irony of this case. a beautiful book with an incredible place in american literature. people love that story, but this tragic irony that they were enamored with the story but unwilling to recognize a wrongful conviction. >> he came to the attention of police because of an affair with a white woman? >> well, two things. the woman he was having an affair with was married, and her husband found out about it and initiated custody proceedings with their

children. and we have a history in this country of not dealing with our legacy of racial inequality. there is a long-standing fear and guilt that gets assigned to men, particularly men of color. decades of lynching around that same issue until the 1970s. dominated by this fear. african-american men convicted of raping white women sometimes under very weak evidence and questionable cases. that narrative was part of the context that made it possible. >> when you look at the 200 plus on death row in alabama , are you fighting to end the death penalty

itself? >> for me, the death penalty is an issue that has to be answered by asking that the question to people deserve to die for the crimes they commit but do we deserve to kill. in my view we do not have a justice system that is sufficiently fair to carry out the death penalty. we have a criminal justice system that treats you better if you are rich. a system that is politicized. politicized. we make a lot of mistakes. we have now had one innocent person exonerated for every ten. we tolerate that error.

i do not think we should be executing people in this country with the kind of system that we have. i am also morally opposed, but to me you don't have to be morally opposed. >> who said that capitol punishment means him without capitol. >> that was said to me by steve rice. i was not sure i wanted to be a lawyer. a lawyer. i was a philosophy major in college, and it took me a while to realize no one would pay me to philosophize i went to law school because you don't really have to know anything. i was uncertain until i met steve. it was the beginning of an

education that changed my world view, since of what is important, priorities as a lawyer. we do have a system where wealth matters more than culpability. and culpability. and i think that is tragic. >> how long has the equal justice initiative been around? >> we started in 1989. we 1989. we have gotten 115 people off of death row. a lot more work to be done. children prosecuted as adults. the us is the only country in the world that condemns children to die in prison. and then conditions of confinement. 2.3 million today. that tremendous increase, horrific conditions of confinement. the us has the highest rate

of incarceration in the world. it's probably at least 1 million in jail who are not a danger. we are trying to change that because we think it is a horrific waste of money. >> tell us about a case that the equal justice initiative has worked on. >> sure. yes. so actually just yesterday we got a ruling. convicted convicted of two murders in birmingham in 1980, and he was innocent but could not get the legal help that he needed. the state said they found the gun that matched these two murders. he needed a gun expert but could not get one. his

lawyer found found a guy who was a civil engineer who was blind in one eye to be his expert. of course, he was convicted and sentenced to death. ..

is one example but we're also doing work on these cases that are very involved in that. but it now has 250,000 people for crimes committed with children. 10,000 children and any given day and are five times more likely to be the victim of sexual assault. 3,000 children are condemned to die in prison. we want to challenge the supreme court on that issue. >>host: back to the previous case is set up to the state of alabama of to

retry? >> yes. the state now has to make the decision we are hoping they will dismiss the charges i don't think there is any question and he is innocent so now we call of the attorney to dismiss the charges. but to have prosecutors and judges but we have a political culture in this country that they give away too much power that they made a mistake. to make error after error after error. so the prosecutors of alabama they need to make irresponsible decision that we made a mistake. >>host: there are people watching the interview to say if they're on death row there is something there.

>> i wish that was the case but the truth is we have 150 innocent people the and it is really hard to prove somebody innocent not because they aren't but we have a system you don't get uglier their very cynical and dismisses. so the evidence is quite dramatic an overwhelming i wish i could say it is really not as bad as i say it is but i think it is much worse. i don't think there has never been a time in american history where more innocent people are in jail or prison than it is today. because the regard that we have is lower than it was in my opinion that when i started my career 30 years ago. uc things that you did not see back then.

so unfortunately no, they don't have the resources to protect themselves of there ever wrongly accused these people or just accused of something they did not do. >>host: this story of justice and redemption. >> we rely on private donations and individual donors in a we have a website and will look for people who share their concerns. >>host: and you want of a macarthur genius grant? for what? >>guest. [laughter] that is a good question and. relocating and race to have

new strategies or do the work in the way that is client centered. but i have been very encouraged. >>host: how many cases currently? >> we have over 100 cases actively working on and does a couple dozen civil rights and reform cases.ered in montgo, alabama? >> macomber has a very common for a rich history. if the cradle of the confederacy and the place where the most intimate battles of the civil rights movement took place. and it is also a place that i think could be a really important turning point in our conversation about race. we really haven't done a better job of confronting our inequality. this country never dealt with the legacy of slavery.

at the end of slavery, slavery in america was than about this forced labor. it was a myth, an ideology behind it and the ideology was addressed by the 13th amendment. in my view, slavery did and, slavery did and come it just evolved into something else from reconstruction into world war ii. african-americans dominate and we didn't talk about that. at terrorism supported jim crow and segregation and humiliation experienced on a daily basis, part of my education. i couldn't go to public schools of the little boy. i thought my parents humiliated on a regular basis and we haven't talked about that. as a result of that, there are presumptions of danger and guilt that her people like walter mcmillan and make it easier to have been convicted. so we've got to do some work in

montgomery is as great a place as any to do that work because we've actually been there in the middle of the slave trade in the 1840s and 50s. we were there during the terrorism error. i am hoping we will be there when we get to change the talk about these issues and create truth in regulation for all americans. that is my hope, that we can do better to overcome this legacy of racial inequality. >> my guess is a lot of first-time authors don't have tracy kidder and desmond tutu better be in the back of their book with desmond tutu: you america's nelson mandela. >> well, i feel really honored and fortunate to be encouraged by extraordinary people like that. i have been really energized, frankly, by the responses i've gotten after writingthis i was very ambivalent. i went into it with the goodness of time. i've been really energized by what i've heard and seen from people who have encouraged me.

>> then you have john grisham on the front of your book. >> guest: yes a wonderful author who knows a lot about the courtrooms and counties that i work in every day, every year of my career. >> host: bryan stevenson, just mercies the name of the book the story of justice and redemption. we won't tell the ending to the narrative about walter macmillan. if you want to see it you can pick up the book for yourself. thank you for being on booktv. >> guest: you are very welcome. james cobb jr. talks about "flood of lies"