liberman, "citizens of the green room." >> journalist ted rall talks about his two trips to afghanistan as an unembedded journalist first and 2001 and again in 2011. this is a little under one hour. >> thank u. all for coming. really appreciate it. it's good also to be in the cooler of the rooms here at kramerbooks. i was little scared when i first walked in. i thought i survived afghanistan only to die at kramerbooks. it's great to be here and great to see you guys here. it's nice to see people are interested in the subject because back in 2001 this seems to be, when invading afghanistan seemed to be the are missing to do in the approval rating was in the '90s enact over 2001

announced down to the teens comes obviously things have changed and often when americans tire of the what they don't want to hear about anymore and they just want to move on. it's kind of nice to see that has not been the case here, at least as far as i can tell him the reception of this book. there seems to be a lot of interest in this deal which is really a story of a micro view of american interventionism. america spent invading foreign countries pretty much since the very beginning. there's really been even a few months in our history where we were not invading or occupying some of the country. afghanistan is our longest war, our longest occupation, and, in fact, there's no and insight. we have a defensive troop authorization in place until 2024 communistic president obama

announced u.s. troops will remain in afghanistan kind of more or less indefinitely. but when i wrote this book in 2010 it was, i started it. when it went on the trip, the centerpiece of the book in 2010, it was in response to obama's announcement that the u.s. would withdraw. this is a look at the war from the end of the beginning of the war in november, december 2001, to the beginning of the end in 2010. even though we are still going to have troops there, mentally and emotionally the united states has as they say here in the capital, pivoted away from afghanistan. so even though the troops are still there and they're fighting and killing and dying, we are still, the mood of the country has moved to other things. other countries like another war, like the war in syria. this is an attempt to look at

the war through the lens of the afghan people. this has been marketed from the very beginning as a war since 9/11 for hearts and minds in the muslim world. i was frustrated like many americans by how the u.s. media was so focused on the troops and their experiences. you couldn't really, yo you cant really cover a war without looking at the troops but you can't really cover a war without looking at the civilians. that's what pretty much the news me has been doing since 2001. there's good reasons for that, like it's dangerous and expensive and news media has been opened up financially. and there's bad reasons, which is it's hard work, it's dangerous, and there's a lot of cowardice and not that much interest and it's a lot more fun to drive around in his to eat

ministry, afghan mystery meat. so with that i think i want to introduce kal who was my colleague who i've known for about 20 years i would say. at that time he was the cartoonist for the "baltimore sun" and he was the president of the association of american editorial cartoonists, hosting the convention in baltimore and that's what would met in 1995. we both have been fellow political cartoonist for all these years and the profession has changed a lot, and kal has always had that spot at the economist buddies been very, like me, has had to adopt and change and with both of her most recent book, where funded at least in part through kickstarter. which is a reflection of the way that the media has changed, and so kal will ask me some questions.

>> definitely. >> and then we will -- >> i will definitely ask questions. >> and then we will do without you guys. >> as a a little background, probably many of you in the river have never met a cartoonist. there's only about, under 100 avatar cartoon is practicing in the country today, and just like comedians and all different kinds and styles of comedians. there is the same with cartoonist, altavista house and approaches. already i think what you have gleaned from hearing ted talk for the opening moments here is what an amazing journalist he is but people often think of cartoonist as a bunch of jokesters putting out jokes all the time. but avicel of it is journalism. and ted is one of the best examples of it. because what you failed to mention, i'm going to talk about his book for a second, is that this book is got writing which

are very capable writer, cartoons, and you're actually an embedded cartoonist. you were filing as a cartoonist while in afghanistan. this does not normally happen. tell us a little bit about, first about the trip, and then, you know, being a cartoonist like this, being a cartoonist journalist. >> cartoon of journalism isn't journalism using cartoons instead of words. it's that simple. joe ozaki is maybe most famous recent example of this but there are others. a book called pyongyang, highly recommended. i've been doing this since the mid '90s when he first heard about this genre, and i sort of realized pretty quickly that it allows you to see things that the camera can't see and that words can't depict a good sort of in between, scott mccloud was a there's about cartooning what

about called understanding comics. he talks about how comics are unique in that they allow you to project yourself into the character on the page in a way that other media don't. if you think about it, like if you go see a movie you probably are not thinking like i'm pleased with our on meryl streep. you like except their expense, hard to identify with experience. if you read prose, it's for a specific come even if you understand the voice of the author. it's not the same as being able to put yourself into it. even if there are very gifted writer. but with cartooning, even in a really come even, especially a very abstract drawing style and a great sample of this would be peanuts or the simpsons, people are able to psychological project themselves onto the blank canvas and imagine

themselves in the situation. and so probably my first successful book of graphic journalism was based on the first trip in this book, and the book came out and 2002, it's called to afghanistan and back. so what happened at the time, i went to cover the war for the village voice and a radio station in l.a. i had no intention of writing a book or anything or doing any kind of comics or anything. frankly, to was a way to make a lot of money by doing something daring and also seeing afghanistan at the same time which i'd always wanted to see. it's a little bit of work tourism, but i got myself into little more than i expected. so the convoy of journalism that i was in, we were 45 from all over the world. including some americans, suffered the most casualties of any convoy in the history of war correspondents. we lost three colleagues, and an aide were seriously wounded.

it was three and half weeks of just carnage and chaos. we all came out of it just racked. so i came back, and i just couldn't do anything. i was still finding my cartoons of course but i was like did want to go out, i did want to talk to anybody. my publisher was weird about me because i owed him about a book about something a in the case of what's going on? i told them. he said you should really write a book about this. everyone wants to do what it's like in afghanistan. they don't care about the politics. the coverage is so frustrating, you can't see. so go. i banged out this instant book and became the first book of, really of any form of the 2001 war and, therefore, he did really well because there was a huge appetite for that knowledge. looking back at it i liked the book because it does give a sense of you can almost taste

the grid of afghanistan in your teeth when you read it. i think if people definitely can get the. it was rough around the edges because it was done so fast. and so i always want to do this better. i've been working on a. a lot of comic journalism over the last 14 years, and this book kind of attempts to bring all that together. i wanted to kind of answer this question very directly. it was, the cartooning aspect was interesting. like, for example, i would with two other artist, matt and stephen. i brought them along because traveling in afghanistan is depressing and hard, and it's hard to do it alone. it's better to do it with someone else. i invite matt, and stephen invited himself. stephen is an adventure junkie. we arrived in afghanistan, and i

remember the first time the cartooning thing happened. we were sitting in a public park and we're just started sketching people and buildings nearby. and instantly people started gathering around us, and like, and just watching us to draw. they were fascinated. they had never -- we realized from talking to people but these were people who had never seen anyone caricature anyone. because it's illegal under the taliban. it's illegal. literally the first expense of representative, of a secretive art that these people have ever had. we can be with someone when you see that realization, it's magical. like i traveled in places in the middle of the country were people had never seen a map of afghanistan. they didn't know what the country looked like. they gather over it and they say oh, that explains, totally

explains what would you go up and it's high. there's a mountain of their and magical around, like i always wanted by the muggles like that, or i always knew if you went that way for a few days you would get to the city. just bringing the graphic medium to people. it was kind of a problem. the police came and actually had to shoot people away because there were hundreds of people demanding -- these are heavily armed people, demanding drawings, caricatures. at a certain point it's getting out of control. we are be like rock stars. and also it's illegal, right? including under afghan law today. under hamid karzai. but the cartooning thing was cool. when we were, and then there were other points when we were, people didn't understand that like a cartoonist could be a journalist. and so on several occasions we were detained by the afghan national army. they thought we were terrorists

because we were dressed like locals, and but very impressive beards which you can look at in the book, and we wore the local dress. my favorite quote was an army officer who said we know you are not journalists. abbasid, even though we oppress the cards and all that. i said, how do you know that? he said there were reports you were speaking to afghan people. they said american journalists never talk to afghan people. they only talk to the soldiers. that's been my experience. that is totally true. >> i imagine, boy, i can't imagine the brain-damaged some people, the first thing they see drone is your cartoon. this could be a real problem for the future. >> think i'd we had matt. >> i'm going to ask if you need a gritty questions about, suppose you want to go to afghanistan. i wouldn't know where to start but you were pretty organized in

the way you pulled it together and the route you took. what were some of the logistics like? >> these days it's really easy, acceptable possibly getting killed apart. you can, literally just go to the afghan embassy here in d.c., or in my case the consulate in new york city. you apply for a visa. it's 40 or $50. you drop off your passport, you get a decent the next day. you fly into kabul. there you are but you've arrived in afghanistan. but in 2000 want it was a very, and in 2001 of an earlier it was a very different affair. so the bench was divided into sections controlled by the northern alliance, which is based in the extreme northeast, and that the taliban controls about 90% of the country as of 2000, but not that. it was complicated diplomatic of

the northern alliance enjoyed diplomatic recognition from the united nations and u.s. government, but no material support. the taliban and with the actual controls of the country only have diplomatic relations with three countries, saudi arabia, the uae and pakistan. you could either go to one of those countries and get a visa from the taliban or do what i did, which is you get your visa talibanized. it was really interesting experience. you go to the northern alliance, get a visa, then there's no airport at the time and there were no paved roads. you would go over land kind of like dan rather in the '70s, early 80s over the mountains. you are hoping it. it's like basically like camping into a really rugged national park. >> didn't i tell you it was a different kind of cartoonist? i've got something to live up to. >> then you get to the worst, where ever the battle line was. these guys call each other. they know each other on radio

and they said hey, we had this american a journalist. he wants to talibanize is a visa. would you accept him? give us a 10 minute cease-fire. then we would drive across, in the middle of the battle, then the taliban and i tried said, picks this up, pat you down, then it's like to ride at the taliban insid side and for $30 y would stamp the taliban stamp on your northern alliance of these, which makes for the most interesting experiences that the tel aviv airport, i just want to let you know. jack, logistically it's just insanely hard because there were no paved roads. there were no, although bridges were gone. there's no infrastructure whatsoever. i remember calling him a star to the village voice. that takes the story. i had to call it in because there was no way using a satellite phone to look it up to

alloallow top to get a strong eh signal at $14 a minute to get a strong enough signal before the telstar moved out of the sky to get your stored loaded up because it would take like two hours and your battery would run out and the satellite would be gone. you have to call but in like an old baseball reporter. and so i was on the phone with this woman from the village voice, and reading it. she was irritated because she didn't understand their government which was like how do you spell that? i said listen, look that up on your own time. please, please, please. she would say can you go somewhere quieter? tell them to stop making all that noise. i said that's a battle. and finally she goes i don't understand but i said what don't you understand? i think this was like a metaphor for america in 2001. she goes, why don't you just go to kinko's? and she was serious. i was like, are you serious? it's the 14th century.

>> the first time you went you had this very primitive experience. the primitive experience. and next sunday when you're able to file cartoons. how bad things advanced been? >> the project in this book was to see what had gotten better, but had gotten worse. cards on the table, i was against this war all along, and i said so loudly. but you have to give nato credit where it's due. they built a lot of stuff, particularly from 2005-2010. seriously there were fewer dropped calls in afghanistan than there are in new york. the cell phone service is important to you. infrastructure is great but i found myself using wi-fi all over the place. if you're willing to pay the bill when you get home, you can use your cell phone anywhere. you can buy a local phone. there's electricity in most places, at least 12 hours a day which is huge, which there was not. there was zero electricity.

so it became much easier. i was able, i would scan a cartoon. basically i would do my stuff during the day. at night get into my house, draw, scan the cartoon in black and white and then upload that to a relatively small file and i had a colleague, stephanie, was a very talented editorial cartoonist as well, she was in florida. she would get it, color it, all the coloring is hers in the book, and then come and then she would send it out to my clients, including the "l.a. times" which was the main recipient of this. think about the miracle. every single day of drawing a cartoon about what i've experienced in afghanistan, and the next date it's in the print edition of the "l.a. times." at that night its online on the "l.a. times" website every single day. it still blows my mind. >> pretty impressive.

i think we can open the floor to questions but before i don't want to share with the audience, ted has been an inspiration for a lot of cartoon journalists and putting himself out there and really elevating it, the bar for all of us. so this past summer i did my own version of cartoon journalism. i was invited to be an artist in resident indicted for three months in bermuda. true. so i did, i did a series of cartoons about politics and life in bermuda. the roads had been paid to their for a while. it was a little bit different experience. we are happy to answer questions about bermuda. any other questions you might have, even generically about the world of cartoons. i would like to open the floor for questions. >> when you said -- [inaudible]

>> do you want to repeat the question? >> yeah. the question is the afghans have a different idea of journalism that one what we do. [inaudible] >> the question is do they think that journalists are military propaganda people? there's actually fairly somewhat surprisingly vibrant print media in kabul. that's a much outside of kabul. there's also a surprisingly vibrant like talk radio infrastructure in afghanistan, but i would say they definitely do foreign reporters, particularly americans, as rank propaganda. i would say that was a true of

everyone i met regardless of the tribe, city or village or ethnicity or anything, their political affiliation. and, frankly, can you really blame him? that's exactly the way of american reporters have done a really terrible job in afghanistan. i can't speak to what they been doing in iraq, but their entire provinces that opposing an american reporter. ever. it's not that hard. i did it. i'm just a cartoonist. it's kind of shameful that reporters from major media outlets with a lot of resources are not dedicating the kind of, and getting the kind of reporters to go into the kind of work, and they don't. i mean, you can't blame them. they see these reporters. whenever they see them at our traveling with u.s. troops. i saw them. they would drive by surrounded by guys with kevlar and huge

guns wearing sunglasses and looking very pretty, angina, their hair blowing in the wind, but it's like where's the reporting? their only hanging out at the bagram air base and other military facilities. that's it. they are not getting the story of the war on the ground. i hate that expression come on the ground, but anyways. >> i have a question about the materials. do you ever have a difficulties with getting paper and getting tens of? or having a place to work? how would that work for you? >> the question was about materials and working as a cartoonist in the field, and that such a good question. logistics are, like you're not going to be able to buy art supplies in afghanistan, even in kabul. to our stationery stores and you can get like pakistani made student notebooks and pens, so i

decided in advance to go basically anything i needed i had to bring with me. things break a lot on trips somehow, so you want to bring two of everything that you need, and then you want to go with as little as you need. the cartoons i filed by satellite are drawn very primitive we. i did that on purpose to i just use a ballpoint pen and white typewriter paper because wanted to do whatever, i wanted to be able to draw a network about like what -- there's some cartoons it did that were more formal. i have a pretty primitive drawing style anyway so it's pretty stripped down. this was stripped down from i stripped down style. it was essential to do that because otherwise you would be out there without a high wire act without a net and feeling stupid because you ca came all s way into can't do your work.

but like the hardest part honestly is like finding that mental space as an artist. when you're being assaulted by all the senses and, you know, psychologically it's tough because first of all like the temperatures are brutal. select we were there in august. it was 132 degrees and you think your mind is going to melt. so you're going through hardship of sleeping come it's very cold at night and very hot during the day. you are not eating good food. you are stressed out. there's times when you're worried about being hurt or killed, and so you're just like, one of the things i love about cartooning is it's a mellow job. it's just you and like a piece of paper on your dressing table. it's your nest. like you're not even in your nest. you're in the field. i came out of it admiring guys

who are drawing beautiful birds in the field. it must have sucked, right? he's wiping his ass with the leaves. >> what about a standing? >> -- scanning? >> i brought to portable flatbed scanners in which is good because one brooke. you can also nowadays, i if you really in a pinch you can use an iphone to scan something. >> your backpack must have been huge. get a lap that all of your gear and everything? >> satellite phone, solar panel. >> brought his own canoe as well, good man. [inaudible] >> seriously, -- >> the question wasn't?

>> the question is has my work gotten back to the people in afghanistan? and the answer is, i'm decided against. there's no bookstores anywhere in the country outside of kabul, but the bookseller of kabul, the king of the reference, i walked into his door and he's like, ted rall. and he was like, indeed, i was front and center and i'm like you are charging $40 for a book of? and he's like, yeah, it's awesome. and i'm like where is my royalties? it's like an $18 book. but they price gouge and the true afghan tradition. there's a lot of people there who are very in shape and with the outside world has to say. probably the most people who know my work are actually in the tribal region of pakistan who are also, including a lot of afghans because believe it or not there's a lot of bookstores there. i so big and pakistan.

people every now and then will order a box of my books and it's like i charge them a fortune because their books and heavy. i don't make a profit but it's like there's a box of books, its 400 bucks. they still sell them and make a profit and they want more. [inaudible] >> is the book being translated? >> the book is not been translated, but a lot of people do read english. this is not going to go to uneducated people. this is going to the elite. only someone who is rich can afford a $26 book, or a $42 book in afghanistan. it's only for rich people real really. >> whether journalists from other countries that would go further than an american --

>> with every journalist in foreign countries that would ask the people adventures, go further than someone like ted rall? >> well, maybe -- yes, definitely. i really admired the work of a lot of foreign reporters from all over the world. including especially i think indians and russians who have like a big reasons to be scared of going, political reasons to be scared of going to afghanistan in remote places. i met a russian radio reported he was incredibly intrepid. he would go anywhere. i first met him on a truck going in in 2001. i love the story. we are banging down this road. there are bombs going off in the distance, refugees streamed on the street. everything has been burned out. it's just how on earth. my knuckles are bleeding because it's so dry. they were just like bleeding, cracking. he's like, it's good to be back

at. i said, really? he said yeah, i was in the red army in the '80s and i was there as an occupation soldier. i said, it's good to be back? he said, yes, it is. because now, mr. american, all this shit belongs to you. [laughter] >> in never got screwed around by the afghans. they respected him a lot. and that kind of goes to the title of the book. he told me, like no, no. we left. they stop getting russians. that pretty much with the experience i had. one night i was in a hotel with all taliban soldiers, and so it was ramadan and we invited ourselves to break fast with some of these guys. there was an old guy who was a veteran mujahideen who couldn't stop yammering about the proper way to shoot a stinger missile and have the kids today just, you know.

[laughter] just hipster jihadis. he was a really interesting character. he was in his late '60s, big white beard and drink a day he worked for the karzai government as a deputy minister of irrigation, like he was helping to dig canals and irrigation ditches throughout the country. and that night he went out with his taliban comrades and blew them up. it's the great cycle of life. one business begets the other. so he asked me, what do americans think of us? what do they think of the taliban? why do they think we are at war with them? they think that women are not wearing burgers. they think you do't like pornography. they think you don't like their liberal lifestyle to he just started laughing and laughing and laughing. he said, look at vietnam. he said you killed 2 million vietnamese people, but today you can go to vietnam as an american

and be a tourist, stay on the beach, eat great food at the tree cuba. everything i is fine. no energy and, in fact, vietnam is a major trading partner of the tiny. he said, it will be just like that here. at first we will kill you, and after we kill you, we will welcome you back as honored guests. >> excellent but another question. does anyone else have another question? >> a question for both of you. about sort of a broad question. where do you feel cartooning it's in in this repertoire in the big scheme of things? go for there. >> the question was where do you do, do we feel, cartooning it's india repertoires? my feeling, first of all, we are all aware we are in the middle of an interesting disruptive digital revolution when it comes to media. and, of course, it's also hit

cartoonist, and maybe some ways we were the canaries in the coal mine. as newspapers retrench because her income was commission, r. tunis were some of the first casualties. as we are looking for people had to turn to the web like so many others but everyone is looking for a way to make him come. what seeing is partly because of the groundbreaking work that is done, is also the privilege and trying to find ways outside of the traditional ways to forge a way to express his opinions through this unique and powerful medium.

i suspect as we introduced the wild west days of the media landscape, all sorts of groups are going to be looking for quality work, and where i think a lot of quality work can be done by those cartoonists are capable is this kind of reportage. we are actually not confined to that little box square that you have in the daily newspaper. one of the damages of the web is

you of all the landscape you want, but you have to fill it with quality. also you're going to find that a new generation of the satirists who don't necessarily to the conventional way that cartoons have been done before, the donkeys and elephants and vocal symptom that are now being raised on a whole different menu of goodies from animation and the simpsons and south park. they will look to other media, other mediums to get across their satiric perspective using pictures as we have as part of the most recent and amongst the last generation going on for centuries in the print way. i'm excited about this, added to think when you have people with adventures notions and creativity, just like ted, the fact that he even thought of doing this which was an amazing thing. we're going to find people like this are going to take a crap and take into the 21st

century. your thoughts. >> like i could follow that up. that's awesome. i mean, that's exactly right, and i think it's important to educate editors. i think that's maybe readers like cartoons, and we know it because, like i'm a cartoonist and columnist. i often do a cartoon and a column about the very same subject and i will see the way the cartoons can go viral in a way that columns rarely can. you would thousands of likes of facebook and hundreds of reach weeks on twitter and the column can be but much as get a dozen like facebook likes and disappear. i'm quoting matt on this. he said if you have like one half decent cartoon about obama's war on prices, you have the only cartoon about that and it's going to float around and is going to be around for weeks, months, it could float around next year.

but if you have one article about obama on isis, you have one of the 100 it is being pushed down by the 24 hour news cycle and it's going to be done in five minutes and it will get a few shares and it will be gone. it's clear, cartoons are huge. the problem we have is that editors and producers just aren't, they are kind of in the way. the web is a democratizing force, but not all websites are created equal. putting something on your own personal humble or is just not going to get the plate has been on politico's website -- tumblr. >> good question. another question. [inaudible] >> that's a very good question.

the want to repeat the question? >> the question is i worry i might do a cartoon that might cross the line of sensitivity, including religion? the short answer is i don't give a damn about that. i don't think any cartoonist can or should care about that. your duty is to the high god of satire, and it's not to the united states. it's not to the democratic party. it's not to my mom. it's too that god of satire so if it's funding and it's smart, then i'm going to do it. now, that said, i don't intentionally try to -- sometimes you end up causing offense inadvertently, which i hate because i just to try to cause offense intentionally. [laughter] and sometimes you get a friendly fire situation where you are aiming at someone and you get someone else, or another group of people and that can happen. you asked about religion. i tend generally not to do a lot

of cartoon mocking religions because to me religion is so obviously stupid that there's no need to make fun of it and i don't find such jokes funny, but that's just me personally. but that's my rule. i think i'm a little more out there than most of my editorial cartoonists, collects, especially those with working newspapers. >> and also the international cartoonists who have to live in the front line. they are more often have to be more wary. good example, pakistani cartoonist who come his newspaper which was i think the hindu times was attacked seven times i taliban over the years. one time his editor was ambushed and his driver killed. the cartoonist will now probably not do cartoons for that newspaper anymore because the newspaper has to be so careful about what it says that they wouldn't be able to print

cartoons that he would be able to speak freely with his opinions were. so then he goes online. a lot of cartoonists who are finding that their voices, it's a little more dangerous for them to do whatever they want in a newspaper, are finding other outlets, we are finding more and more people going online. >> yes. [inaudible] >> the question is what are the prospects for peace in afghanistan. snowball, hot place downstairs. i think there's no, the thing is, what happened in 2001 when the taliban were nominally overthrown and karzai was installed is that it ended up putting, building pressure on a pressure cooker that was already boiling hot. all the factions are waiting for the american and the nato withdrawal, and the civil war is

certain to resume. this is the afghan way. it's what they do. they are very good at it and it's how it's going to be settled. there's no motivation for any -- the problem is really that no party can fight the other party to a decisive victory. afghanistan is divided basically into seven major ethnic groups, and the biggest one barely is half of the population. the pashtuns. they are never going to dominate that way, and they conform temporary alliances of convenience, but ultimately they all want to be in charge. wouldn't you? we have setup a bad situation and there. what we should have done in 2001 is, i don't think we should have gone in if we were going to go in we should've gone in and basically with the marshall plan. leave them a bunch of infrastructure, say okay, now

you guys work it out and we are out of here. hope you don't blow it all up. that would be sad. i think that might have maybe possibly lead to some sort of process, but at this point it's been, so many mistakes. supporting karzai footnote indigenous political support. supporting him and his clique throughout years of stealing billions of dollars of your tax dollars and putting them on pallets and shipping them to switzerland literally. the kabul bank fiasco, look it up. it's insane. it's like the kind of stuff the bank star's did here in 2008. the division between the extreme wealth of a tiny few who are building these cheesy mcmansions out in kabul, and everyone else who is starving to death literally. there's just too much rage, too much anger. i don't think there's going to

be peace in time soon, but i have really, really want to be wrong. >> another question. [inaudible] >> the question is what's my you about isis, or isil, or whatever we're calling it not for days, and whether we should do anything about it. yesterday on npr i was listening, it was very striking because it's so mainstream. today on the diane green show, should we go in -- we are all attacking isis. should we attack more? we'll had a discussion from all sides of the issue. unlike, so there's never, the option is never presented even a liberal msnbc that maybe we shouldn't be involved at all. this is the interventionist mindset that is become reflective that i'm talking in the book.

and so might you about this is, isis scanners the shit out of me but i don't think -- they are our business to the extent that they were our creation in large part because we financed and armed through back channels the groups that ultimately became isis. and so it's our business, but history shows in afghanistan and iraq and in libya that these adventures always turn south. they can turn a bad situation into a worse situation in 2001 we replaced the world's worst government would one the even worse. i talked to a woman in kabul who says, back then i used to go walk to the state and watch them kill rate this. now i watch them on television because they are in the government. it's a very -- u.s. government has a tendency to pick the wrong

side in these disputes. we have a tendency to back the wrong side, and we don't, and they're someone obvious things that we ought to be doing that we are not. even mainstream pundits are calling for the u.s. to loosen ties with iran, and that's like 30 years overdue. why are we still angry about the hostage crisis? it's time to end that. look, i watched the james foley video and i've seen the other two also. i felt the same thing everybody else felt, but we can't get, we can't get dragged into a war for emotional reasons. this has to be a cold-blooded decision. has to u.s. interest at heart, and there are not. there just are not. they do not pose any kind of direct threat, even according to the obama administration, to the united states. so, therefore, we shouldn't be there.

we should let this play out, and that's my opinion. >> we are going to take one more question but before we do, a quick word about kickstarter the you did a kickstarter tell me about your kickstarter. >> the kickstarter, i misspoke, it was not too fond of the booker it was to fund the trip in 2010 to go to afghanistan. the book came out of the trip. i wanted to go back to afghanistan, but this time unlike in 2001 i found it almost impossible to get any funding from a newspaper like the "l.a. times" but they were like, we will print it and we will pay you something, but unique tens of thousands of dollars to do war correspondents. everything is paid for in hundred dollar bills in those places. there was no way to get it. my friend stephanie mcmillan, she said do it now because it's going to get ruined. she's so smart. she made a video of me, and i

think it worked because i already had a fan base. i was already known for covering this subject and there was a hunger for it. i raised $26,000, after 25,000 desired. it's not a king's ransom to i ended up paying about 40 to go, but it was, it certainly put a dent in my expenses, and then this came out of it. it was a good experience, but then i tried it again two years later for mr esoteric book about where i wanted to travel to places and revolutionary control, like the niger river delta and the rebellions on and always places that are like under control of radicals to see what it's like to exist outside of the nation state space. everyone was like, no. >> i did a quick kickstart for my book year which was going i had a different expense because i had been with the economist or

35 years and i have been a freelancer that entire time but also i own the copyrights to the cartoon which as big as you know. when it was my 35th anniversary i started to kickstarter i wanted to raise 20,000 i was lucky and raise $100,000 presold copies in 26 countries but it's going to be great for cartoonist and others who are trying to get their books in this culture of the printed word. so one more question. one more. who wants to take the last question asked surely here at kramerbooks. >> on national television. >> it's going to be a real good question, right? >> maybe not. [inaudible]

>> excellent question. >> it is an excellent question and it's kind of the complicated answer. >> first of all, posed the question. >> posing the question, the question was if u.s. news media outlets complicit in tragedies like the death of james fold because they failed to provide adequate protection and enough money and backing for war reporters who they are just hiring on the cheap? the short answer is yes, they are, absolutely. it's repugnant to see the way

that, i was one of those early guys. i remember in 2001 when everything fell apart in northern afghanistan, and by that i mean northern alliance soldiers were looking for us to kill us and steal our money, and they're starting to do it to our group. we had to flee. each reporter for himself or herself it became rapidly clear that there was a hierarchy here, that the rich tv network guys, they were all staying at the warlords mention and they had like flushing, running water, flush toilets and stuck let television. it was awesome. except for your ethics, that's not so much. been below that there would be, there was a washington reap -- a "washington post" reporter very brave staying in the same guesthouse with me. one time we were hanging out and this one comes up to were. bear in mind this is the 14th century. hands her a back. like, that's nice, thank you.

i'm like, what's that, lunchbox she said it's $100,000. no one ever brings me $100,000. but she was prettier than me. [laughter] and jimmy when everything was falling apart. i cover guys from nbc news. they were literally able to call in choppers to deliver beer. but for me and like when i had a fellow reporter who was grievously injured and later died, we couldn't get him out because there was no support. he died there because of that, okay? it's absolutely heinous the way that, now if anything, it's a lot worse because there are so few reporters who were action on staff. so guys like james foley, they go out and put their lives at risk and they're getting paid a joke. it's ridiculous some of the pay rates these people get. it would be insulting if they

were going to cover san diego comic con. they are asked to possibly out there. editors don't have any problem with this. they go home and they tuck the kids and that anything good people, and they are not. they are paying the top executives way too much money. there's lots of money in these news organizations. they are just not getting it to the people do the actual work and are risking their lives. the reason i said it was complicated is, the flipside of that is, it's often far safer to travel independently than it is to have support. i would never go to afghanistan with security guards aren't with the guys with the guns. under tribal code you're entitled in these countries the hospitality of your an unarmed strange. i have talked my way out of death many times that way by saying, what are you? are you a catholic?

your not a muslim. what you mean? you are thinking of kidnapping or hurting me or robbing me. it's like i'm an unarmed strange, right next yet. you are muslim, right? you have to give me your best, like the best food. or you are not muslim, right? are you jewish? what are you? they get really offended. i'm serious but it's ridiculous what you have to do to survive in these situations. if you are traveling -- if you're not unarmed, i think it's more dangerous to travel with u.s. troops where, by their tribal code it is totally morally acceptable to both of reporter with an ied if she or he is traveling with the u.s. troops. they might still do it but it's wrong to do it if you are -- so that increases your chances. i think when you stay with local families, you're under their protection.

and many times those people arrested their lives for me. just because i was paying 40 room for the night because that's the code. you are my guest. i took you been. i will die for you, until tomorrow morning when you leave, in which case you're on your own. but hey, motel six doesn't give you that. >> i want to think iphone for coming. let's give it up for ted rall, ladies and gentlemen,. [applause] >> we will be up your signing books. they do so much for coming. >> if you would please fold up the chairs. [inaudible conversations]

>> booktv is on twitter and facebook. tweet us, twitter.com/booktv, or post a comment on our facebook page, facebook.com/booktv. >> published by national geographic, "mars up close" has been written by marc kaufman. what's your background to write about space exploration? >> my background is actually as a journalist long time, and not as a science journalist. i was a foreign correspondent for a long time for "the philadelphia inquirer" and the "washington post," but what i learned was that being in foreign countries is kind of a good way of learning how to speak to scientists. they are talking a different light which, different culture. you spend time with them and work it out and to come up with some really fascinating things. >> what was a curiosity? >> curiosity was the rover up on to mars, and it is searching for