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t esivthieinhe gornntif e aprer bua t itomes o e mhi mhi-rab da d think that's why it's so important. it will result in not just be accountable government did not just better managed government but also a lighter touch. more efficient and lighter government. the implementation requires sustained focus by the executive branch and i know you will have testimony later about how things are going. the first staff in the the not going to report what was said about the process making it more user-friendly. there there are some things we have to focus on what the witnesses and i look forward to getting a report on how they answer the question is.

we know that some of these benefits can be generated in uniform comparable data. the standardization. that means we are halfway through the standardization implementation. how is it going, i didn't think it was going very well and some of us talked about it. i think it is going a little better now. shortly after president obama signed into the wall they issued a statement saying implementing the requirements will be based on the current funding and time frames that permit not very encouraging. i don't think that sent the right message at all.

we did have shaun donovan on the records on the governmental affairs and we asked them about this during the hearing and the response we got back is he was going to paradise this entity can bore in the record and doubles encouraging and i think we have seen some improvements. i know the treasury has been holding meetings with the stakeholders in the comments at the standardization issue. the meetings have generated a lot of information that i know will help inform the standards to be adopted and they are on pace to meet the deadline which will be in may of next year for the publication of the data standards. if that deadline slips, it's a problem because if that's what's, other implementation deadlines will also split and i think all bets are off to enable fully realize the promise of the act, so i hope those questions will be answered today whether they are on track. again it's not easy and it

requires a lot of focus as the chair and ranking member knows i had the opportunity to implement and we will talk about the second. it took a sustained effort otherwise it just won't happen. let's not use the deadlines to avoid the hard work to craft standards. it's applicable across the government but there are comprehensive. on that front there's a comprehensive sign that's a little bit less encouraging. they published the controller over to to the governmentwide data posted to the usa spending and its testimony today will be referred on the spending .gov data standards site. that isn't quite right. it requires the standards include the common data elements for the financial payment information to be recorded by federal agencies and entities.

the elements must be published in the spending but also for all the data agencies included in the financial reports and that all recipients in funds must be record eight co. reported in the agencies commiserate is broader than that. despite the reference, usa spending .gov i remain hopeful that we will encourage these complaints of data standards and infrastructure that can handle the whole landscape. that's required by the act. in addition to the country and the data standards they must be flexible and we can talk about that later. i know we have to get onto the witnesses but that is another part about to be asked about today. one of the steps is to ensure

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contractors through unique identifying number. this number is assigned to an exclusive contract with the company dun & bradstreet them is that right a? >> that's right. >> many copies of multiple subsidiaries with different trends of the numbers but a company that commits fraud can sometime get around past performance used to it should disqualify it from do business with the government. it appears that one government contractor uses, tries to use that, the department of justice alleged in a recent false claims act to suit the top official engaged in a massive $1 billion scheme to defraud the federal government of companies contract to conduct background checks. yet despite these great allegations, the department of homeland security awarded uses a new contrast this summer.

does is raise any concerns to you? >> we issued a report a couple years ago on the government use of the trends of the numbers raising concerns about the government being so dependent on sole proprietary set of information. the cost were going up because of that and there were limitations that were put on the government by the contractor. so we encouraged gsa to take another look at this issue. they haven't the in place the replacement system off of a system that was in place at the department of defense called the cage system to get than the federal acquisition regulations now and it will set up a government owned identifier, but it will, to your point of also provide linkages to the next tier up of a company and the top tier of the company if they are an affiliate a company. >> is that in effect now? >> i believe, yes.

yes, it's in effect nobod now bt will be transition over time. >> well, october 20, gao had -- held at the protest by one of use of its competitors. in his decision gao concluded that dhs, and i quote, failed to obtain and consider the specific allegations of fraud alleged by the department of justice. gao, end of quote, gao also found dhs and i quote, failed to consider the close relationshipp between zawahiri and is a. company. the system that you just talked about, this new system would he detect a? >> it is supposed to going forward, right. right. >> could you give me some additional information on that? i would like to have the. >> sure. >> one problem here, the use of subsidiary bidding for the contract had a different d-u-n-s number in the subsidiary accused of fraud against united states

taxpayers. do you believe it is possible to link the d-u-n-s number of subsidiaries to make it easy for contracting officers to check this information before awarding new contracts to companies that defraud taxpayers a? >> i think about how to get back to you on the specifics as relates to the d-u-n-s number specifically, but the effort that the government put in place ultimate what it uses that says one of the system should be able to do what you are talking about and should be voted on a consistent basis. but again what we learn from our experience, same thing on excluded parties list about whether it should be checked before making awards that's been a place for years, oftentimes the agency to execute properly against the requirements. so you need both, you need the capability and you need the management discipline to execu execute. >> thank you. is everyone on the panel agreed that we should consider ways to ensure that the government has

access to the data it needs to identify links between companies and their subsidiaries? >> absolutely. actually i agree with what mr. dodaro said. it's not a technical issue per se. it's really, it goes back to one of the fundamentals of the data act, is how we going to identify the identifier both the parent as well as the children of those companies. so yes, we can deal with that during implementation as well. >> i a great. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> mr. dodaro, because you're answering the ranking members question i want to expand just a small about. under the cage system one of the complaints that dod contractors have had for years is that can be locked out of new contracts because of the merger or a domestic your -- divestiture because that's a fairly cumbersome system. as you're answering his question for how we stop fraud, like u.s. ideas complaints that he had,

but also how would we streamline that to make sure, which often happens, somebody acquire somebody origin is spun off or sold to another account and literary dod finds themselves unable to issue a new contract until some of they can reconcile the unique identity of something that has become no longer part of a parent. i think mr. cummings point is actually good, that it's a combination of a d-u-n-s which is quickly assign versus the cage system which can be very cumbersome when even rockwell and lucky, very large companies sometimes sell unit to each other and find themselves in a real conundrum. so if you would answer it fully i think would help us understand the limitation of the data act. >> we will definitely do that. >> thank you. mr. lankford. >> let me join others in the accolades for getting a chance to serve with this chairman and very much appreciate being able to serve in which is handle

things here. mr. comptroller, what to make a couple of comments on comments you have in your written statement as well as some you'd meet in oral statement as well. from your written statement, the data act was enacted to address these challenges among other things did act requires number one establishment of governmentwide data standards by may 2015. how is it going on that? do we have a firm deadline on those in place? what's the progress report? >> i think that the treasury and omb and the agencies are off to a good start. they've got a task force set up by hhs to look at the award data and dod to look at the contract data and come up with some, -- comment data others. they're laying the initial framework. they have a long way to go though before they're going to have the standards in place. we will be evaluating their progress and commenting on those standards that they will be

issued in a. so we're tracking them very closely, but i'm encouraged at least they're getting organized across the government to address these issues, and d to use something that already in place which will help expedite implementation. >> is permitted, is that an achievable goal to get there by may of next your? >> that is our goal. as mr. dodaro mentioned, we, look at some these aggressive dates we put in place not just the government and the plan process but we have put together the working team between hhs and dod to actually start working on what we believe is critical. >> what are the major threats to not achieving that goal? is it a hardware software issue? is it communication, training? what's a major threat to not achieving that goal? >> for this particular coal companies really we have the right resources, just keeping the focus and the folks that we have identified from both of

those departments are advocates of the what we're trying to accomplish. my expectation is we'll make good progress. >> help me understand, it's a matter of just management of getting everybody flying information? you have the software, hardware, the plan in place, just medicating every agency to implement it? >> well, i think what we are talking about is coming up with uniform definitions that can be used across government. we are really not into technology and moving data around. we're just getting a clear definition of a core group of terms so that whether you are dealing with an acquisition or didn't with a grant, let's use, place of business means the same regardless of a government contract or a grant to a university. >> so that his wages intellectual work that needs to be done over the next several months. >> while we're on the conversation let's talk about the definition of the word program.

which has been a much discussed definition of what does that mean. i know there are some gao reports on that and omb has basically said let the agency determined but there has to be some sort of uniform system of how do we define the word program from place to place a we know we get accurate information. so how is that coming and what is the progress in trying to use the word program defined? >> actually within the statute there's a statutory definition of program activity, and basically ties back to both accounting and financial in the budget. we are basically using that as sort of the framework and the bedrock and looking at, here's what the statute says, the definition of program activity is, and now the trick is going to be how do we ensure that this is interpreted correctly and consistently across the breadth of the government. >> so that should be complete by may 15, trying to get the definition across the agencies

so they have a consistent -- >> i think it would be easy to convey the definition. the challenge is going to come in the actual implication overtime. >> i understand the that's the question. so is that a may 1540 think that's a couple years from now before everyone falls into line with a clear understanding and implementation of the? >> i think it's, concept, not of the program activity but a lot of the other definitions, it's a matter of educating people. recognizing that in me we're not actually going to start moving data around what we needed a foundation of an understanding across government and across different communities that this word means the same regardless of whether you're in dod or dhs, or hhs so that we have that consistency. it's about education. >> good to let me ask one more brief question. mr. chairman, one minute? thank you for generation.

mr. dodaro, you have a statement in your written testimony that says that while -- let me just read. june 2014 reported agencies generally reported contract information as required, many assistance programs grants or loans were not reported. what did you find from the? >> we basically found there were 324 programs that were not reported totaling about $619 billion of the system. where we prodigy detention of some of the agencies, they have reported some information subsequently. but other programs have not come including many programs at the va have not yet so we are continuing to follow-up on that. >> obviously many ages, there are more grants than on contracts are going out now so that's pretty important we get the grant and loan part of this as well consistent with data actors making that as well to coincide with the. is that progress on going to getting that will also make

deadlines the targets at this point to we can get grant loan information as well as contract information? >> yeah, you have many more and agencies involved as you point out in the grand area so that you need to bring them into line in terms of clients. so there's more people to monitor connected to hhs is declared obviously but many agencies do that. in the contract areas it's largely a key agencies but most of the contracts. so it would be a greater challenge for omb and treasury to exercise oversight over the agencies, and hopefully the ig review will demonstrate that as well. i'm hopeful but it has to be priority for the agency. hopefully the administration will make it one to one of the reasons i want to be so active in this is that the initial implementation of this legislation was talked about a may date but there were dates for 17 and 18. the 18th is to government these things. initial application is legislation will span the two

administration. southern is the continuity among the administrations to make sure that this operates effectively. that's one of the things jailed to do is try to help two main continuity. >> mr. chairman, thank you for your indulgence. >> you are most welcome. ms. norton. >> thank you, mr. chairman. you use a small devil to clamp down on the acclamations to you. i can understand that so i will use my own time. but it's worth it because mine is the only jurisdiction which has to come before this committee. mr. chairman, i cannot thank you enough for the way in which you have upheld the principle of democratic and local government. that is something to say when you consider this committee. because this is a community differences on national issues. this chairman never let those differences, never required or

thought that i should change my view on those national issues in order to get the assistance of the chairman and that is affecting the district of columbia, helpful in matters coming through this committee when they came through this committee. sometimes i have to ask, can we jump onto your markup? you are always willing to do that and to help us in the senate as well, but particularly for respecting what i think is a bipartisan principle, local government is for local government. you have been invaluable, mr. chairman, and i thank you for it. i just had a question to make sure that there is not a bill that it -- an elephant in the room if you'll forgive me that will save so much money in the long run, perhaps even the short run. senator warner said something,

invest. of course, we have to invest in order to save money. congress doesn't operate that way. it operates on annual appropriation to it's supposed to save year by year so it ends up spending much more money than it should. so this matter is not for the administration alone and i don't think they should be, you know, deadlines should be met, you know, as you said to the last member to its emendation. but i do note in your testimony, mr. lebryk, you are candid in saying that the data act did not provide any additional resources to the agencies. you and i both know that the agencies are under severe restraint, even before the sequestered. they were under, had these huge cuts.

the estimate was only two or $3 million per agency. of course, that could mean staff, whether you are moving or not. and i wonder, have you done any interval estimates to identify the cost of implementing the data act for agencies? because this gets to be particularized when we talk about the other priorities we face. >> ms. norton, as i mentioned and i think both my written as well as my oral comments, the cbo when the bill was moving towards passage and eventual signature, had initially scored it at the 300 million figure. but you noted that was back seven months ago, and it was based on what they knew at the time. and it was primarily focused on treasury effort, but i think as

all of the witnesses have talked about, including the two senators, that this is a pretty extensive effort to go into hundreds of stove piped data systems. first of all identify what those data elements are, get agreement on standardization, and can be able come and treasury is looking at some innovative techniques that have to do this, pull that data together so that we can display it in an intelligible way on this new website. so short answer is we are working on our own estimates now of what the level of effort -- >> you don't think that estimate is correct at this time? >> i think it's a good down payment spent it will cost more than that? >> it's hard to tell right now. we are actually out not asking agencies to start looking at their current environment and mr. dodaro mentioned a number of different let's say and dod systems, what is going to cost to identify the data elements across -- >> are those going to come from

whatever funds they already have? >> well, you know, unfortunately there was no funding in 14 and we started are working -- >> mr. lebryk, you mentioned this in your own testimony. and again i don't know how we can just skip over that. there's no funds in the bill. there's no funds in this appropriation. this is a task that the agencies have never done before. how do you expect an agency can particularly a complicated agency, to go do what it's never done before with no new funds? what should happen now to make sure that there are resources, in fact, resources allocated to save the extraordinary amount of funds that you know will be saved in the long run? what steps should we be taking now? they're going to throw up their hands and say this is complicated, we don't have the money, we don't have the staff.

>> the first step is to come up with an estimate based on what we see now as not only the specifics with regard to the deliverables and timelines, but also our sort of basic understanding of what the level of effort -- >> wouldn't it be the next budget when the agency goes to ask for whatever funds it would take to begin intimidation of this so that we are not stalled by agencies having to look to whether or not it has funds? i can say this right now. if it does not have the funds, there's very little incentive for an agency to dip into its already cut the budget and begin a new come on a brand-new unprecedented project. >> my indication, ms. norton, is that we actually can' can wait l next year, that it's going to be -- >> the president's budget, agencies can ask -- >> for the current those for you year we are interweaving as i

mentioned not data definition. we doing so the intellectual work by we're going to quickly move in the springtime into more detail to work across the breath of the agencies, and therein lies to you point the challenge that there is sort of an -- >> the president budget being made now for what is it, 16th? >> for 16 it is under consideration. >> are you working with the agencies to make sure that ask for the funds? small amount of money base on these, certainly a start up. >> that is why we've gone out and ask them for what is your initial estimate to get started. >> that's very reassuring. >> would the gentlelady yield? and this may be part of your question, but if we could perhaps expand it. there are billions of dollars worth of money that isspt, bli, vepi ste, i., cer seofwhich fccontg drepti

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