tv A Life Reconsidered CSPAN December 24, 2014 11:28pm-12:25am EST
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things done in a complicated country that even back then was partisan. the roosevelts were despised by a number of people in society. they were still able to get things done. one of the things that theodore and franklin roosevelt could not get done was the affordable care act. if theodore were to suddenly appear in our studio he would say, what? what kind of country are you look at the other countries. maybe it is is a big political football, but in the scheme of progress you can look at the affordable care act as the last act of the new deal. >>host: the next question. would teddy recognize the republican party today?
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>>guest: that is a big one. theodore roosevelt would be not surprised because he battled the very conservative views that are now prevalent all his life. he was republican and terribly popular but not with the right wing of his party. he built a great democratic machine which has largely broken up waiver, much weaker than it was before, and he had always the solid south. very different. i think that they would both be surprised at what has happened to there party. >> franklin would probably recognize. he would feel more at home in all its constituent parts and diversity of minority
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and said he can progressive and all of that. i think theodore would also recognize and understand. founded in 1856 with two missions in mind, to free the slaves and get rid of this monumental hypocrisy, the toleration of slavery, and they went about doing that with their second candidate. the other was to level the playing field. the interested already begun to take over and there was big business. people who were influencing government, and they thought that the founders and the mountain states and independent shopkeepers. the republican party became a place for that. the progressive wing saw that the republican party had lost its soul by returning under the sway of the so-called interest.
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and the democrats of franklin roosevelt's father and the republicans of theodore's father were interested in leveling the playing field. he would wake up and say, i get it. the republican party has lost its way again and i need to bring back more of these things to help bring back the main street guy, the family farmer, not the agribusiness, brings back the principles of the republican party as it was founded. the history of the republican party has been this alternating current, progressive mode and conservative mode. so i think both would find themselves and then set about trying to make compromise and get things done. they were about rolling up their sleeves. it may not be because we agree. but i think we would say
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they knew how to get things done. >> an intimate history appearing all this week. >> thank you. >> thursday, doctor ben carson interviewed by nbc news political director. karen armstrong interviewed by sally quinn of the "washington post". later his book embattled rebel. that all begins at 8:00 p.m. eastern. >> ten years old. to mark a decade of conversations, thursday president and chancellor of
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the university of houston and the role of colleges and universities. 7:00 p.m. eastern. >> providing live coverage of the u.s. senate for proceedings and key public policy events. every weekend book tv the only television network devoted to nonfiction books and authors brought to you as a public service. watch as an hd, like us on facebook, follow us on twitter. >> the political philosophy and presidential tenure of james madison discussing the nixon presidential library. this is a little under an hour.
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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] ♪ ♪ [applause] >> wow, that was nice. [laughter] and dick says it's almost enough to make you want to run for office. [laughter] >> almost. [laughter] almost. well, we're delighted to be back here tonight, and i've had the opportunity the visit the nixon library and museum on a number of occasions and served in the
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nixon administration during the first term, and so i'm always pleased to come back and visit this part of the world and be reminded of a very important time in our history. i thought the president did a superb job, and i was happy to be a part of his administration. we're here tonight, probably should explain at the outset why we're here together. the fact is i was born in lincoln, nebraska, and lynne was born in casper, wyoming. and in 1954 when i was 13 years old about to go into the eighth grade, my dad moved the family to casper, wyoming. he had a choice between montana and wyoming, he picked wyoming. and it was a good thing because lynne and i grew up together. i first took her out when she was 16 years old, we'll celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary come august -- [applause]
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but if dad had picked montana instead of wyoming, of course, i would never have married lynne, she would have married somebody else. and as she said the other night, then he would have been vice president -- [laughter] ms. . [applause] >> i don't recall that that was one of the jokes you were supposed to tell. [laughter] >> i'm a freelancer now that i'm unchained. [laughter] we're here tonight to talk specifically about a magnificent book that lynne has written about james madison. it's got some great reviews, and we're on the book circuit, so to speak. i've been to the nixon events here before sponsored by the nixon library when i had other books to write, to publish. and now we wanted to have an opportunity, obviously, for lynne to present hers. it's a, as i say, it's a superb
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book about our nation's fourth president, and the plan is that i will ask her questions, and is she'll respond, and then at the end of that period of time, we'll open it up, take some questions from the the audience as well too. so with that, let me begin by asking why madison? what made you decide james madison needed another biography? >> well, before you get there, i want to say that i'm so grateful to dick for joining me on this book tour. i started referring to him as my arm candy. [laughter] you know, i've known, i've known i was interested in madison for a very long time. i had the privilege of serving on the bicentennial commission for the constitution in 1987, and it was then i first began to understand how magnificent madison's accomplishments were. and yet how little recognized he was in terms of what he had accomplished in his political life. it wasn't until five years ago that i became serious about
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writing the book, and it has been a labor of love. and i only hope that you'll enjoy the book as much as i enjoyed writing it. he was the architect of the constitution, the architect of the bill of rights, he was crucial to the establishment of the first government under the constitution, he was president during the first war under the constitution, ask he performed -- and he performed be not magnificencely in all those jobs, at least very well. at the end of his presidency, john adams -- who was kind of a sour figure and not given to making compliments easily -- john adams wrote that james mad's administration, madison's administration had covered itself in the more glory that any of his predecessors which is a great compliment because his predecessors were washington, jefferson and adams himself.
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so i do think he's been underappreciated, and it's been really so much fun. i mean, i know five years of labor doesn't sound like fun, but, you know, discovering thing, being able to put it into a form that i hoped would reach a wide audience, and as the book is called, "reconsidering james madison's life." >> which was the most important contribution. the contributions were enormous, obviously, but if you had to pick just one, what would it be? >> well, it would have to be the constitution. i think he was a genius, and the reason is he was the kind of genius he had is that he was able to breakthrough conventional thinking. when everybody else was thinking one way, madison didn't necessarily accept it. he would think of other possibilities. and he did that in the case of the constitution and the case of
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establishing a great republic which is what we are. the conventional wisdom was that you couldn't have a great republic, you know? a great republic where people voted for representatives for themselves, representative government, that it would be too loose over a long and vast extent of land, and it would fall apart unless you had monarchical power, a king, a monarch at the center. well, madison just thought that was not true. he thought that, in fact, the danger in a republic is that one faction will dominate and oppress everyone else. and madison's genius was to see that if you had many factions as there would be in a large republic, then no single one was likely to be able to become oppressive. and that was the rationale for the constitution that was produced in philadelphia. it was his genius to see through
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what everyone else believed time and again and to transform the world by doing it. >> you talk about his relationship with the other founders, george washington, for example. >> you know, we think sometimes of the founders as sort of sitting around having a polite conversation, and, you know, all of them having greater good in mind at all times. it's much more interesting to realize them as they were which was people who firmly believed in their point of view and were handgun -- were willing to fight to see it succeed. in the beginning madison was washington's chief lieutenant. when the first government under the constitution began -- now, this'll be familiar to any of you in politics -- washington had an aide write his inaugural address. and the aide produced a 72-page disaster. [laughter] so washington wrote to madison
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and asked him, please, come to mount vernon and help. and so madison did, and he wrote washington's inaugural address. did a very good job of it. after washington delivered the address, madison -- who was the leader of the congress -- wrote the congress' response to madison. -- to washington. [laughter] got it, thank you, you laughed even though i got it wrong. he wrote congress' response to the inaugural address. and washington thought madison was so good at this kind of thing, he asked him, madison, to write washington's reply back to the congress. [laughter] you know, it's hard to imagine how his voice was echoing off every wall. i'm not sure there's been another time in history when one man has been so influential at the beginning of the administration the way madison was at the beginning with washington. ..
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there was this thing we all learned in history books. of course, the big states wanted states to be represented proportionally. the small states states wanted the states to be represented as states, and we all no the compromise. madison was appalled. he thought there should be proportional representation. he had gone and thinking it was a great threat to the
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republic. he called them being evil states because they had been so irresponsible, repression -- repressing religious freedom, churning out money. turning out money, and then passing laws that made it necessary for merchants to accept that depreciation for debts that have been incurred. getting paid off at a penny on the dollar. they were conducting their own foreign policy. the compromise was to have the states represented as states and not proportionately. it took him a couple of days
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to get around to accepting that. >> what conceivably made them think they needed a vice president? >> that is kind of an internal question, isn't it. it had to do with the electoral college. every elector had to vote. they cannot agree on anything else. the alternate at that.was to let the congress choose. just imagine how different our president would have been. he would not have had a ronald reagan. you would not have had and that you neither, plenty of speakers at the house. the electoral college. the big states and small states. the small states are worried the big states will always elect the president. o
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assuage their concerns the deal was made that you could only cast one vote. one of those two boats were someone summoned from your own state and the other had to be cast for someone from another state which give a small states a better chance. but then they started worrying, and you have all played this kind of game, if you want that one vote for your on guy in your own state to be really important heathrow where the second vote. you expanded on jim who doesn't have a chance. to prevent that finally getting to the answer they invented the vice presidency. the idea was the person i got ththe second highest number of votes would then become vice president. that seemed like a pretty good idea but then i started worrying what was he going to do? [laughter] and it's so interesting to see how the thing just builds up. they decided he needed a job and
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they would make him president of the senate. by the end of the constitutional convention there were two delegates who were so worried about the vice president, the executive branch being present at the senate part of the legislative branch about his violating the separation of powers two delegates elbridge gerry and to randolph of virginia. two delegates, i'm sorry. elbridge gerry and george mason of virginia specifically cited the vice presidency as reasons they wouldn't sign the constitution. they called it that dangerous office so there you go. >> during the course of his career the terms of implementing the constitutional -- alexander
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hamilton became an important player in all of that. you talk about what it was that led to their major disagreements and confrontations? >> first it's important to understand that he and hamilton were not buddies exactly. they were friendly colleagues. they wrote the federal papers together with a little help from john jay. and the story of writing the federalist papers it is if you don't mind -- the story of writing the federalist papers is so interesting because it was done in such haste and i was explaining to a college audience and colleges and universities in the area will appreciate that what madison did during one period of time during 40 days was writing a 10 page paper everyday. that doesn't seem impossible but
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they papers became immortal so writing philosophy, writing politics, writing an effort to convince people to support the constitution at breakneck speed. the printer was putting the beginning parts of it into print before they were finished. so madison and hamilton respected one another until hamilton became secretary of the treasury under george washington and began to make his financial plans clear. madison was trouble from the beginning but he eventually particularly when the issue of establishing a national bank came up he was deeply concerned. he didn't think that a bank was a bad idea. but at the constitutional convention and in fact he thought it was such a good idea that the constitutional convention he had proposed
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giving the congress the power to grant charters which is what you needed to hit wanted to establish a bank. congress didn't have that power and that was madison's problem. hamilton was simply running roughshod over the strict number of powers that congress had been given. there was no power to grant charters and madison thought you should not establish a bank. he lost the fight but he went on to kind of when the war i guess you would say. he established the first opposition of the political party. the party didn't have any better reputation than they do now. again this is counterintuitive. it was against the conventional wisdom that said parties were divided. they were noisy. we didn't want them in republican and madison said hi yes we do.
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so in order to change the way that hamilton was trying to -- the government they get so strong that madison thought it was something the constitution hadn't contemplated. and by founding this political party he managed to get jefferson elected president in 1800 jefferson like madison was a small government guy. >> one of the most important functions we have seen obviously in recent years throughout history was the role of commander-in-chief, who is going to run the wars and be in charge of the military. and of course madison as you mentioned in the opening was the first president ever to conduct war under the constitution. the way that power was vested in to the presidency strikes me as a great story but it is not how
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it started out. >> the constitutional convention there was -- it was just about to go through was that the congress among its delegated powers was the power to make w war. madison, his mind was so quick. his intellect instantly grasped what would be the result of various proposals. he leapt to his feet on the floor of the constitutional and changed the word make to decla declare. congress would have the power to declare war. he did this in part as he had seen what ms congress made up things when they were in charge of four. he had seen coming yet been a member of the confederation congress where there was no executive and the congress would decide they would write george washington and said kerry south
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and then they would say send him north. it simply wasn't a way to run a war. some madison left to his feet. he said congress has the power to declare war but what that did was make the president the commander-in-chief once the war had been declared. >> how did he do as commander-in-chief? the british march on washington, burned on the n. burn down the white house. was he a good commander in chief? >> he was patient. [laughter] like lincoln, like lincoln he had trouble with generals. and the war of 1812 the generals were people who have had served in the revolution and they were getting a little bit long in the tooth. and you know they weren't as brave may be as they might've been in their younger years.
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one general who was supposed to invade canada near detroit to the border became so alarmed at the rumors that turned out to be true actually that the british had formed a strong alliance with the indians who were great warriors that the americans might have to -- but he just turned around. he not only didn't invade canada. he gave the british detroit. so generals were a problem. not so with admirals. the navy that started under john adams with six targets they had eight or nine by the war of 1812. the british had more than 100 warships of frigates. the navy was trained all that time and brought new and younger blood to man the warships. you can't just mothball a navy and build it up again so the
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navy kept going all that time and as a result there were magnificent victories, naval victories and the war of 1812. while people like general hall were fleeing from the british and indian allies isa costs who was indeed related to general hall, isaac hall was commanding the constitution and the constitution of course new at this constitution most famously encountered the british frigate and just you know wiped her out. part of the reason was that our frigates though they were far fewer are better built and the cannonballs just bounced off inside the constitution many instances which is why she gained the name of old ironsides. so there were splendid naval victories and towards the end of the war we were developing a new
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class of generals. when i say madison was patient, he suffered through those first generals. i don't know what choice the commander-in-chief has in that and absolutely help celebrate the glory of the navy. he also changed his mind. he was not afraid to do that when circumstances change. he had long regarded armies and navies as too expensive and is a threat to the republic he easily used against the citizenry. by the end of the war of 1812 he was suggesting to the congress that they expand the navy and provide for a standing army. >> how would you evaluate him overall? how was he looked upon? was he viewed by the public, by his command as successful as the
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commander? >> his contemporaries, and madison was one of those fortunate few that left presidency highly-regarded by his countrymen. we don't pay much attention to the war of 1812 but it was regarded by americans as evidence that we should by gosh be recognized on the world stage. we deserve to be recognized on the world stage and in fact the rest of the world began to do that especially as you pointed out after andrew jackson beat the heck out of the british at the battle of new orleans. >> one of the most intriguing aspects of the research you came up with was, had to do with madison himself. i think it's a major contribution from a historical standpoint. he had an affliction that led him throughout his entire life and yet he was able to achieve
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these phenomenal objectives under extraordinary circumstances. and it's really one of the most important founders. can you tell us about that, both what his problem was and how he dealt with that? >> you know it was one of those puzzles in the beginning. people called madison shockley which he was in. he was simply reserved and they said he was sickly and indeed you could see that he was sick some -- from time to time but he also between the episodes of whatever it was was enormous with energetic taking thousand mile trips by house -- horseback and carriage with lafayette, not the one with jefferson, traveling in the days when travel wasn't easy between his home in montpellier and wherever the capital was, new york, philadelphia, washington, undertaking those routine trips. i often thought it was something that none of the scholars who
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called him sick we could manage. during the war of 1812 he was on horseback for 60 hours when washington was burned. so there was something odd here. he was sick a lot but between sickness he was quite well. there's a letter that he wrote toward the end of his presidency that hasn't been published yet. i certainly didn't discover it i think it was a person that paid attention to it. it's the library at princeton and it's a draft of an autobiography that madison wrote in which he said he was subject and to use the quote sudden attacks, somewhat resembling epilepsy and suspending the intellectual function. nobody had taken him seriously really. i think people just wanted to shy away from it. it's kind of difficult topic to figure out, health and 18th century but i decided i would take them seriously.
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and you know you can see that. in his life where he didn't have any episodes. his description of his sudden attacks and facts it quite well with what neurologist today called complex partial seizures which is a mild form of epilepsy. i think that was it. he had febrile seizures as a child. he had long febrile seizures as a child which is often part of a syndrome that involves seizures, epileptic seizures as an adult. so he had, it fits right into all of that. and he suffered the first at princeton when he was at college. you can just see it. you say i know what he's talking about it i'm going to take him at his word. he fell into this period up the despondency where he worried about his soul and he worried he
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wouldn't live long and he worried he wasn't good enough. and he was lucky, he found doctors come his family did that urged him to exercise. that being fit would help. he didn't and the seizures but he was marked remarkably fit which doesn't fit with the sickly image. he was very fit and i think once he decided he would take his physical health that hand he decided to take his soul and hands. he was not going to believe all the things people said about epilepsy. people said if you have had epilepsy for seizures resembling it that you are evil, that you were full of sin, that you were even possessed by the devil created madison finally just decided he didn't have to believe that. i really think this fed into his strong freedom of religion,
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people can believe whatever religion or no religion at they won't into his strong support for freedom of conscience, intellectual freedom. nobody should have to believe anything that he or she thinks himself is wrong. and that idea liberated him and i think indeed helped liberate us all because he led the way for freedom of conscience, for intellectual freedom and religious freedom, more than any other founder, even more than jefferson. >> what happened to the other biography? did he finish at? >> he didn't. it's just a draft. this happens after you have been in political life are well. people write and say what you tell me some things about yourself and this fellow wanted to publish whatever madison sent him. madison started the autobiography that he did not finish it. he decided subsequently not to talk about his epilepsy i think
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because it was so demonized. he decided it was more trouble than it was worth two could call all that down in his head at the end of his presidency. >> but he still had this amazing ability to perform year after year after year. >> and i really do think seeing him as having conflicts or shall seizures explains how he can be sick, sick time and again but between he was perfectly well and full of energy. the energy he spent at the constitutional convention was phenomenal. >> dolly. >> don't you love dolly back? she was beautiful. men stopped in the streets of philadelphia when she walked past because she was so beautiful. she had dark hair and pale skin, blue eyes and ruby red lips, the whole package. madison was smitten when he saw
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her on the street. he asked his good friend, and this will be a surprise to you, his good friend aaron burr. [laughter] they had gone to princeton together. he asked aaron burr this was before aaron burr got in trouble. he asked him to introduce him to dolly. she received him in her palle paller -- parlor. she were mulberry red dress and yellow and black beads and he was a goner. they married a few months later and she was a political asset. i'm always kind of skeptical about how important whites are. i'm not sure anymore that it's as important as it might've been a recent times think it is. more and more wives have their own careers so they aren't central to getting their husbands elected. but dolley was because in those days the congressional caucuses
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pick the congressional mummy. there were no conventions but the pocket republican and federal side. dolly made those members of congress very happy. they were miserable. they all lived in the sporting houses. one senator said where an sensible like bears from talking nothing but politics. there was no place to go. there was one place in washington that specialized in rope dancers. i'm not sure either. [laughter] may be tightrope walkers, that's my story. i don't know. so these men were so happy when the medicines open the door to their house and welcome them no matter the party. they played cards. dalai took a little snuff along
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henry clay. they shared a snuff box. it was warm and congenial and they didn't mind if you talk politics. jefferson was very different. he didn't like people to talk politics around him. he liked things move and calm. so he didn't invite people from both parties to dinner. he would only invite people from one party at a time but the medicines mix it up. people love dolly. she loved them and they begin to feel not only great respect for madison but i think great warmth because of dolly's entertaining. there is even contemporary testimony to her having been in some not insignificant measure responsible for is getting the nomination in 1808. >> games james and dolly are married for 42 years. >> not as long as us. >> no. and in august as i mentioned we have been married 50 years.
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[applause] i'm going to repeat the question. what was the highpoint of those 50 years for you? [laughter] >> not the 42 years for dolley? >> no. >> i knew it was dangerous to have you asked the questions. one event i can think of it really presents you in a light that i think people don't often see you in. darth vader is the image. [laughter] of folks let me tell you, he's a real romantic. for the 50th anniversary of our first date, now what yours that? >> it would have been 1958. >> it was 2008 was the 50th. he arranged a surprise party for me to celebrate the 50th anniversary of our first date.
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now all of us in the audience try to top that. it was very special. he invited all of our college friends. he even had the good sense to tell me we were going to the british ambassadors for dinner. now you don't want to take anyone to surprise party, especially a woman if doesn't have on a nice dress and you don't want to take her for harris and rollers or whatever. so he got me to dress up and he told me the story weeks in advance. and then the annual gridiron dinner happen in washington. as the vice president spouse with his head at the dash sit at the head table. and this particular occasion i was sitting next to the british ambassador. [laughter] so as dick put it i had to read him in. he had to tell him the cover
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story in the british ambassador didn't say a word in the surprise was complete. it was really a wonderful night. he had a cake made that was tall and had a little sort of body sticking out of it with blond hair. the cake was red and it was a skirt and he did that because on our first date i wore a red formal with a big red skirt. you see? [applause] are you blushing? >> no. just like dolley madison. one more question we will open it up to the audience. it's difficult one actually. what was madison's greatest disappointment with respect to the constitution in those
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formative years of the republic? >> well you know he was -- what the constitution when it was finished that he thought it was the best of human beings could do so he became a permanent defender but at the end of his life and all throughout his life he hated slavery. he wrote a letter as a young man when he said i want to do everything i can to become independent of slave labor and he wanted to get off of his father's plantation or farm and live an independent life in which he wouldn't be dependent upon that dreadful institution. and he tried but he didn't really have a long time to try added because he became involved in public life and created the constitution so forth. so he we didn't succeed. jefferson also hated slavery and he didn't succeed either bringing himself from it. so i don't think he had such a
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goal, such a firm goal as madison did. but at the end of long lives they died owning slaves. you can see him toward the end of his life clinging desperately toward the only thing he could think of that might help which was the american colonization. one of the problems by the 1830s was that if he freed the slaves they couldn't say in virginia. there there was of law that prevented that. neighboring states pass laws so free slaves couldn't move there. so there was this idea of finding a place in africa and paying the way for freed slaves to go to liberia. the problems were manning one of which the major was freed slaves or slaves generally thought of the united states is their home. the slaves of montpellier had been in virginia as long as madison's family had. so what it was a failed scheme
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from the beginning but you could seem clinging to it not able to think of anything else that could give him the kind of hope you had as a young man in the awful institution should be done away with. >> maybe just to wrap up can you say a word about if madison were here tonight would he think we have been true to the basic principles in his work? >> i think you would be appalled at the size and scope of the federal government. he would think that we move far away from the limited powers that were given by the constitution to the federal government. he might be somewhat gratified though his appointment would be much greater if seeing the way in which the constitution that does prove itself relevance time and again. it just occurred to me the last few weeks the supreme court is
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considering it case that involves whether, whether the police should have the authority to search your cell phone for a traffic violation. there were two instances in which this happened in which the cases are argued before the supreme court. it's interesting when i mentioned it to people they say well that's wrong or they will say that's right, maybe the guy who was stopped was a terrorist. and what was interesting in what i try to emphasize is that's not how we decide things in our society about how you feel about whetheyothk tt' rit tt'wrg. wetun t cstutn ma tseecio. e pre urjtis il goacto cstutn at rd onbfo h rer so o beor e we cl on tt th juic wl veo bk
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ppus au ady r ednd cafoia. h yomeiod w poanit s mdin th eem cociceo mwndinho yofe authefcthatte whtllor o pod e rteprgmi heonyne rrtltng rsofo it >>xce , ea fis ll tnkhe sadhe pre cour s etl wh th too. u ewco t blve anhi y wtt u e lce s aos anhing b wt u n't isioteatnaseri dinc htwldedng thcony. edward swden is a case in point. i think he is a traitor and i feel it does not bode well for
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our society that he is being they'll arrest for having betrayed his country. [applause] [inaudible] >> i'm sorry, you need a microphone. >> maybe this is off point. [applause] >> i respect your right to speak your mind but i also reserve the right for myself and dick not to answer your question. [applause] >> dr. frank cannon in the back of the room.
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>> you spent five years living with in addition to the vice president living with james madison. can you talk about. >> i gave the other 45 to dick. >> any talk about writing a book like this, where the papers, where did you go and visit and are their madison descendents and if you could ask him james madison today one question that emerge from your research what would that question be? >> that last one is really a puzzler. i have to think about that one. the madison papers are in different places. you do have to travel a little bit. i had to go to princeton for example. you have to go to philadelphia. their unpublished papers about madison's family and the presbyterian historical society but 30 volumes of medicine's papers are on line. they have been digitized and done a wonderful job of digitizing them. dolly's papers as well have been
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done by the university of virginia. so think of that. research is so much easier now than it has been before. i was chairman of the national endowment for the humanities for a time and i used to be appalled at some of the things we funded. but if they were into increase the endowment's budget so they could make the funding of the founder's papers and digitizing them so citizens could have ready access i think that would be a good expenditure. you know frank i can't give you a serious answer. i just have to think about what i would ask madison semi-on serious question is i would say how tall were you? this has been disputed. someone said 5 feet 4 inches and his favorite aide said no 5 feet 6 inches and there was confusion on whether the aid was trying to be flattering. you know i am 5 feet tall and i think 5 feet 4 inches would have been just fine.
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