mcclellan. >> guest: that's right, absolutely. johnson was davison's mcclellan, that's exactly right. i guess the advantage there goes to lincoln because he got rid of mcclellan and sooner than davis got rid of johnson. >> host: during davis' presidency was he ever nationally beloved? was he a great hero of the south or did that really belong to the generals? it's my impression that davis became a beloved hero of a lost cause after the war and his long lifetime after that. he survived lincoln by 24 years. did the first love of the south during the war belonged to lee and stonewall and not jefferson davis? >> guest: yes that's true. on the other hand i don't think davis was as unpopular among the ordinary people in the confederacy as the image we might have from the newspapers and from his political enemies.

he was subject to savage criticism but i think he retained a certain amount of popularity with the ordinary confederate citizens. on the three trips that he took to the deep south during the course of the war in december 1862 and again in the fall of 1863 and the fall of 1864, he spoke at a dozen or more venues during those trips almost too large and enthusiastic crowds. so clearly there was some residue of support and even affection for davis among the general population. at the same time that governors, senators, newspaper editors were savagely criticizing him. that doesn't mean he was as popular as lee or stonewall jackson by any means but i think he was probably more popular

than the popular image with the image we would have of his place in the southern affections would indicate. >> host: in the record there is some evidence of the behavior for the common people of confederacy even drilling his common escape. he passed an old woman in a cabin and she held up an infant child and she said he is named for you. davis took his last gold coin and give it to the woman and when he was going through washington it was almost over. the town through a momentous feast in honor of davis. these were the common people of the confederacy. these weren't the elites of the plantation country. >> guest: at the same time davis in some ways in retrospect became more popular in the u.s. during the war. partly that was because of the martyrdom of his imprisonment. and he was chained for the first few days which made him a martyr. even at a time of his lowest

popularity after he was captur captured. the lowest popularity in the fact that he was chained and imprisoned actually made him an object of sympathy in the south. >> host: could he have one any under circumstances or is it miraculous enough that they survived for four years? >> guest: i think they could have one. almost keeping in mind what winning meant for the confederacy which was just holding out and surviving and wearing out the will of the northern people to continue making the sacrifices necessary to win this war but in defeating lincoln for re-election. if atlanta had fallen, if lincoln had been reelected the whole story might've been different. i think once a plant a false you win some major victories in the

shenandoah valley and that then it's all over but up until that time there were possibilities. as long as lincoln is president and as long as he retains the support of the northern people the confederacy can't win but it's possible they can win if lincoln is not president. >> whatever his flaws as a leader, as a president was robert e. lee right when he said no man could have done better? >> guest: i think he was. i don't think, consider the alternatives. robert tombs, howell cobb, those were the two main competitors of davis back in 1861 when he was chosen partisan. >> host: they would have been far worse? >> guest: i think it would have been far most. >> host: the south would have lost the war by 1863.

>> guest: probably so so i think davis was probably the best choice in 1961 and i don't think anybody could have done better. >> host: how should we remember that cost today? you have already mentioned how you think of him but how should the american people remember jefferson davis? how should we remember this war and how should we remember the confederacy? >> guest: well i think we should remember the war as the great testing of american nationality and american freed freedom. and the country survived that test by remaining one nation and by abolishing slavery. so that means we remember the confederacy as a challenge to the moment of testin testing and triumphant. jefferson davis is the leader of that challenge, but if we grant

that then davis is somebody that we need to know more about because if we are to understand the successful survival of that challenge by the united states we have to look at the other side of the story. the leader of the party that challenge that survival. >> host: thank you jim. our guest is dan james macpherson author of "embattled rebel" jefferson davis as commander in chief.

now on booktv hugh howard examines the homes of civil war era figures which includes the residences of jefferson davis, robert e. lee, claire and bearish clara barton and frederick douglass. this is about an hour. >> good evening. i am tony clark from the carter presidential library. i'm really glad you guys are here. i have really been looking forward to this because this book, "houses of civil war america" is really fascinating. anybody i think who likes to travel, one of the things i know but i enjoyed is going to places where people lived that have been so tied to history. i think of going to abraham

lincoln's home and i can, you almost walk in and some of the dark wallpaper and assigns of the time, just kind of seems to take you back into the time and you kind of get a sense of the people from the places they have lived. for more than two decades hugh howard has been writing about the past and what is really neat is how he took on architecture. his first book, preservationists progress was a collection of essays and profiles but then when he went right for right he started with frank lloyd wright taking a look at the architectural biography of frank loyd wright and he partnered with roger straus to take the photographs. and what followed was a series of books that are just not only stunning to look at but really

fascinating to read. we had hugh here for houses of the founding fathers. one of the things that are just an interesting look at the founding fathers and the houses they have lived in. he has written a number of books, but this one is especially timely with the observance of the anniversary of the civil war and as i say the photographs are spectacular. the text that puts it all in context is really interesting so please join me in welcoming hugh howard. [applause] >> thank you tony for those nice words and thank you all for coming out this evening. in the months since i finished writing this book, i thought a lot about what i wanted to say when i went out to talk to

people about it and frankly i have a little trouble deciding what tack i wanted to take. and i got a little break when an e-mail arrived from my publicist about a month ago and she wrote to say she had just been hired away by a publisher. i liked her. she's about 25. she is really smart, full of energy. she is clearly -- and i was sorry to see. i said as much. i wish her well and that i thought was that. however i got another e-mail from her in the term and i am going to redo exactly what she said. dear hugh i have never been one for history because i felt it lacked human characters and i have a special place in my heart for your book because you are book brings the characters back into the story. well, i was a little stunned.

i was very flattered. hero is this smart, talented intelligent young person who had just said something very nice about my book so thank you amelia. but her words also got me thinking and she had put her finger on what i think may be the central point of this book and a couple of other books and this book that i have written about is that the past is about people. so again, thank you amelia. and now let's go meet some of the characters that she mentioned. first up is mississippi. hala rand occupied a top place in natural society. his wife julia grew up in the town. he was grew a graduate of the university of virginia. he was a scientific farmer who would develop a new strain of cotton that was particularly well adapted to the climate of mississippi. his large holdings included by

plantations, three in louisiana, two in mississippi along with 800 slaves to work more than 40,000 acres. he was needless to say a very rich man. he opposed secession and regarded himself a confirmed unionist but pretty soon found himself along with secessionist friends enmeshed in a war. in 1860 natchez had the highest per capital income of any city in the united states but the war would bring that to a shocking end. the story begins a little bit earlier and by the way the story might also be called the tale of falling. christmas eve 1959 he wrote to samuel sloan that the time was right he told the philadelphia architects to build his natchez house and the need plans and specifications. he had chosen an existing design they had found some years

earlier called the model architect and they wanted him to reconfigure design 49 which we are looking at here from this 1853 book to accommodate their family. their children aged from 18 to one year with another expected. the new house was to be built on almost 90 acres, not far from natchez itself. it would be a villa super bonna that is to say a suburban villa and it would be different from a lot of the other suburban houses in that it would be constructed as you can see the top and a cited footprint. the details of their octagonal house would be different. rather than being built-in greek revival style they would have more-ish elements. the house is also distinguished by its scale. the plan for the main floor featured for worms that measured 20 by 34 and four more were 18

to 24 in four large verandas. the most impressive wall in the center was a rotunda 24 feet across the soared six stories. sloan had not thought large in every way. they would be 150 doors, 125 windows, 24 closets and on and on and on. the first construction proceeded normally. as the crew dismantled an existing house on the property, team of 15 men and eight boys made risks -- bricks on-site and guided by masons the soon -- the walls and began to rise but as they did a shift in american politics was underway elsewhere on the continent. in illinois the rail splitter extending slavery into new territories of the states hit a run for the presidency. that saw the arrival of no work

from philadelphia. shipments included more than 100 columns along with brackets almost two miles of moguls. two miles of molding was really a lot of molding. defense elsewhere continued to unfold because after lincoln's november victory south carolina secede from the union in december 1860. the walls of long would continue to rise steadily. the trauma supplied like frosting to a cake and mississippi withdrew from europe in january of 1861. before yankee masons left with war looming but master carpenter smith worked along with the tenor from philadelphia. in the last of the yankees departed finally for good the envelope was completed but it was only a shell, vast, empty and they left their workbenches behind where they remain to this

day with paint pots and other paraphernalia assembled on the surfaces. the local artisans managed to complete the seller. he turned that into livable space where he and his family moved in but whatever his earlier dreams remaining in grander stories of a house would never be finished. three generations lived in the house. howard and his wife julia. he died however in 1864, crushed by debt julie believed in poverty. her namesake lived on after their deaths and three grandsons would make the best of the basement corridors until 1868 when longwood became a museum and the most visited site in natchez, city where looking at antique houses is something of a way of life. now the site bears a formal

designation as a national historic landmark but it's also a place of personal heartbreak grade it's not for us i suppose with hindsight for a century and a half to be bewildered that he would build when he did on the eve of war. shouldn't he have known better since the country's unrest? but that's probably not fair. he didn't know what we know. instead what we see in natchez is the unquiet ghosts inhabiting what is nothing less than the perfect architectural metaphor from the historic moment when the rules suddenly and irrevocably changed. war isn't only about the combatants of cores and houses of civil war america, they are not the only ones out of uniform. in her book photographer roger straus and i visit the shakers a

selfie and in kentucky. we were john there by the diary that eldred's nancy board kept for 1080 days of the civil war. her daily journey made it possible to make her the character of the story. but so did her circumstances. kentucky of course was a border state and south union not far from bowling green was contested territory. now in practical terms what that meant was early in the war one day ultras woke up to find colonel nathan forest along with 86 of his calvary men had made camp on the shaker property. later in the war after the territory had changed hands union soldiers helped themselves to the community's provisions in livestock so they were in the middle of a war like it or not. yet they were pacifists, sympathetic to the union gets

also celibate. these double stares actually reflect their calculated sexuality. the west is for the sisters and the right stare is only for the brothers. meanwhile nancy moore recorded what she saw. she and her shaker family were caught in the middle and i think stories like hers are an important part of understanding the civil war era. i want to go next to a grand house, a single family home where we will find a well remembered man facing a damnable dilemma. he did so on virginia soil from the hilltop mansion that his wife had inherited with its panoramic view of the federal city across the potomac. just days before the outbreak of the civil war standing upon the portico of arlington house as this is called with its colossal

columns he gazed upon them finished capitol dome, that beautiful feature of our landscape colonel robert e. lee's remarks to a visitor has ceased to charm me as much. i fear the mischief that is brewing there. it is april, 1861. we having graduated from west point in 1829 had done stints as a chief aide to general winfield scott during the mexican war. he had been commander of the troops that had recaptured the arsenal ending john brown's attempt to foam at the slave uprising. for his first 54 years, the sun had felt an absolute allegiance to the country that his father had helped found, henry light horse read light horse read of course have fought with george washington during the revolutionary war in the

friendship of the general in the first meanwhile on the lee's wife site mary's father george washington's -- have been raised from infancy by george and martha washington. needless to say their patriotic roots were deep indeed. but the events in charleston harbor on april 14 the union surrender of the fort meant that we had to make another decision. because of recent days he received two job offers. the first on april 18 delivered by an intermediary inquired per order of abraham lincoln whether we would accept command of the new federal army. as he recalled later i declined the offer stating as candidly and as courteously as i could that i could take no part in the invasion of the southern states.

lee regarded himself first and foremost as a virginian. he called the state his homeland and attacking his people, that was inconceivable to him. when he gave general winfield scott his answer and scott by the way himself was a virginian field commander reacted not in anger but in sadness. you have made the greatest mistake of your life scott told lee that i feared it would be so. when he left scott office lee's future was yet to be decided as he still faced another question. if you couldn't oppose his region could he join a csa and fight the nation that he had served for all those years? you see he had been offered a commission as brigadier general by the confederacy a number of weeks before but he had refused it at that point because virginia had to secede. he had dismissed the secession is nothing but a revolution. which brings us to the evening that lee learned in the days

after the canon fired for sumpter and it surrendered the virginia delegates had finally voted to become the confederacy's eighth state. so we are here at arlington house. lee is upstairs pacing back and forth, shaking his head bumbling to himself. his wife marianna custis is downstairs in the parlor. four hours she listens as he tries to make up his mind. it would be she recalled later the severe struggle of his life. now, we know the outcome of course. after breakfast on april 22, 1861 robert e. lee wrote away from arlington house for the last time. apart from richmond dressed in a black suit with a silk hat atop his head. two days later he formally accepted command of virginia's military force.

now neither lee or his wife could know how dearly the decision would cost them. one of its consequences would be the loss of the custis mansion now better known as arlington house. arlington strategic capital meant that the union simply had to take it over for military reasons. union soldiers proceeded to chop down old growth oak, elm and chose not to build barracks and to burn wood as firewood to keep them warm in the cold weather. they constructed earthworks and access roads over the once pristine agricultural landscape. a hospital was constructed on the property and in 1863 the southern portion of the state became a freed man's village for thousands of runaway slaves. soon enough it also became a barrier ground -- burial ground and today it's the centerpiece of arlington cemetery with the same panoramic view of the

capital. and i think it's one of our nations most important memory palaces. now in natchez the town fathers were wise enough to surrender so no battle, and no civil war battle took place on the streets of natchez. the same cannot be said of hamlet of sharpsburg maryland. it is they are at what they call the battle of antietam that we can make the acquaintance of one clara barton. four months the military have been telling her that women would skedaddle and create a panic at the first sight of a gun. one general thought and an reasonable meddlesome body but the 40-year-old barton would not take no for an answer. she had witnessed the arrival of the wounded in washington from the second battle of manassas

and a full 10 days have been required to get all of the wounded from the battlefield to the hospitals in washington. she knew the wounded simply could not wait that long so she accumulated medical supplies and by the time she found the quartermaster willing to listen she had filled three warehouses with hospital stores and foodstuffs. perchance to put them to good, put them to use arrived with a secret message delivered by hand and although she would live another 50 years she never revealed what was the center the message informing her that robert e. lee's army of northern virginia was marching on maryland. with the help of the teamster assigned by the sympathetic quartermaster barton and her assistants and her assistant apakan army waiting with bandages dressings and food. the small woman wearing a bonnet writing out of time beside him.

the term to advance or place general mcclellan's supply line she awakened a driver on a clock in the morning on tuesday, september 16, 1862 and in the darkness they took to the road passing some 10 miles of supply vehicles. by dawn they caught up with the horse-drawn artillery. in the early hours of the following following day the battle of antietam began with canon fire. despite the deafening roar barton made her way toward the battle. she found her way to addressing station and old barn and found it doctor as she knew. he showed her the makeshift operating tables. we have nothing better instruments he told her in a little chloroform we brought in her pockets. in the absence of proper bandages they were using green corn leads to dress the wounded. so barton's wedding was put to good use. never before had lenin looked so

white she remembered. the fight raged for hours and barton administered chloroform as surgeons -- linsanity assistance of one soldier excised a bullet using a pocket knife. i do not suppose a surgeon would help pronounce it a scientific operation she allowed. when she brought a cup of water she felt her sleep twitch. the man quivered in an slum. a bullet had passed through the crook of her arm tearing a hole in her sleep before ripping into the man's chest killing him and instead. ms. barton was not one to panic and skedaddle. at the end of the day found barton can buy gunpowder, her skirt tale penned about her waist, her hair jumble. when the doctors complain that lack of light discontinue the

surgery she summoned -- from her wagon. one doctor soon wrote to his wife that in my feeble estimation general mcclellan's with all his laurels sinks into insignificance beside the chu heroin of the angel of the battlefield. by way of beside this is a period picture that alexander gardner took of the battlefield. when i it was put on display in new york at matthew brady's gallery, and it wasn't anywhere near the size, people use magnifying glasses to look at them. it was very detailed and the first they had seen that suggested the terrible carnage of the war. in antietam alone the casualties amounted to 25,000 men. the images i have been showing you by the way are of clara barton's house in clinical maryland.

is that a little better? now the time has come to get to the most important like it or not, out of bed. british journalists george tuthill board came to america to take the tour. he wrote about what he saw described in his travels in the strange lands of canada and the united states including a stop in wartime washington. he found willard hotel comfortable. he thought the unfinished capital beautifully proportioned, his phrase. still he dismissed bustling washington is nothing more than a military depot which of course was essentially true. while an america board had two goals in particular. first of all he wanted to see

niagara falls but the other thing he wanted to accomplish was to meet abraham lincoln and to accomplish that he prevailed upon a new friend to arrange a visit with the president. a plan was in place for the daughter of a undersecretary of the treasury to take us upon the evening to lincoln's country suite. their destination was not a great country house of the sort that borit's aristocratic countrymen inhabited. true it stood as borit reported in a park but he observed that it was guarded by troops that camps picturesquely about the grounds. the principle building on the 300 plus acres of the so-called soldiers home was actually an institution for disabled army veterans of the first family inhabited this gothic revival structure. the hilltop property was as simply an escape from the heat and humidity of summer in

washington. arriving after dark borit ann could see little of the houses but a servant ushered them into a neatly furnished drawing room they had no prearranged appointment at lincoln soon appeared. borit described him as a long lanky figure with ice or very sleepy. although they had gotten them out of bed borit was still surprised that he was wearing carpet slippers. he was very sallow wrote lincoln very ugly and awkward and ungainly but there they were handshakes all around and borit found all my uneasiness and awe finished in a moment before the holy greeting of the president in the genial smile which accompanied it. a brisk conversation ensued and lincoln asked us guess what he thought of our great country. he spoke of franklin's political aspect and the constitution

before discussing it in detail, points to the difference between the governance of the two countries. borit thought his commentary very lucid and intelligent. after an hour or so borit and his companions were asked to go. thanking us cordially for coming to see him lincoln gave us each a hearty grip of hand. it was much more than a shake and we were through. now seems like lincoln had won over the skeptical journalist and in fact borit reported as much in his book titled veterans from canada and the united states which is published a year later in london. sit down and talk with him for an hour borit challenged his british readers and note the instinctive kindliness of his every thought and word and say if you have known a warmer hearted nobler spirit. ..

in the summer of 1862, lincoln slept hardly at all. he took place by brambles to the property that has been declared on had been declared on a national cemetery and of course there he saw the boys that he doesn't war. the document was again in my opinion would be like today to call the tipping point. for the first time it was established at the north and south of this was about slavery. the proclamation also meant the south couldn't get national recognition from great britain or france that became a moreland. so with no help coming from the workers the outcome i would argue is that the south could

not find. there was also a disagreement and i think it is very worthy i found it in writing that every book it's an opportunity to go back to school and certainly this one was no exception. the biggest lesson i learned is just as the symphonies and paintings can be left unfinished, so can the war. a disagreement and debate over what happened and why still goes on in the civil war. for example, i was taught growing up in new england that massachusetts went to war to end the slavery. i imagine those of you that were educated in the south thought that it was about states rights. as it happens we were mostly misinformed on both parts. the cottage is one of the good places to begin understanding how because for lincoln the war was about the unions until it

became expedient to make it about emancipation. the evolution of his way of thinking was an ambiguous journey into the emancipation proclamation draft as it was during those june and july weeks on the hilltop in 1862 was primarily a war measure designed to stachede designed to staunch the loss of life and when the war sooner which relied upon slaves. but i need to move on, since this is a complicated argument that could go on and on, as indeed it has. has. we will come back to it from another angle in a minute. next up would like to take us to an unexpected presidential place. biloxi, mississippi, a spectacular spot overlooking

the waters of the gulf of mexico. it came to the name when a new owner first gazed upon the saltwater scenes from the front gallery of the house stated the obvious, what a beautiful view and decided on the spot to rename the estate. the main house was completed about 1853. the main house stands atop the brick piers you cannot quite see. which gave it the advantage of being a little bit above high water but not high enough to protect it from katrina, but high enough to offer cooling breezes which could pass beneath the house. a very clever floor plan.

later, for a dozen years after the war it was home to a former president who greeted such visitors as joseph pulitzer, newspaper magnate, john adams, even oscar wilde. they they all came to see the retired president, jefferson davis. it offered the tranquility in his last years to write the history of the nation he attempted to found. in a different way today the place offers a suitable setting to contemplate the chasm between what lies between his admirers and those who still see him as the enemy.

it is a bold and multi use building called the jefferson davis presidential library which you see on the right here. it has been recently constructed. it has a gift shop, offices. for those who view jefferson davis as the civil war antihero, the library is a peculiar paradox. he never won the presidency of the united states. he could hardly be entitled to the honor of the presidential library. on the other side of the divide stands the sons of confederate veterans, the organization that owns and operates the jefferson home and presidential library as a shrine, there were.

consistent with the deed, they maintain the property as a virtual memorial sacred to the memory of jefferson davis, the only president of the confederate states of america, sacred to the memory of his family and the lost cause. where does that leave us? for me it represents lots of things. for example, places to put into my books, it has narrative because davis' life is a tragedy. in the 1950s jefferson davis masterminded the raising of the capitol dome. he diligently served his nation as a soldier, senator, secretary of war, a

dyspeptic man, not terribly likable, but if you know his story would dispute that he had the respect of his peers, north and south, as a patriotic american. however, after reluctantly leaving the u.s. senate and in doing so he gave a speech that left some of his yankee peers with tears running down their cheeks, he became president of the confederacy four years later the war ended with his arrest, and he became a political prisoner. many wanted and news around his neck for his presumed role in and lincoln's murder. now, there was no evidence against him. nevertheless, he would spend two years.

family, and here they are. geoff are. jeff davis, his wife, daughter, grandchildren, all post on the porch. it has its share of teachable moments, and perhaps it is the perfect place to go back to the epithet i mentioned a couple of minutes ago, the lost cause. in essence the great, good, good, and genteel culture was unfairly wiped out by war. in fact, almost as old as the war itself because the term was first used in a a book by the same title published in 1865 arguing that the south soldiers were notably superior to the unions, the confederate army was not speeding but overwhelmed.

interestingly consequently it animates mainstream texts for most of the 20th century. it's changed quite a bit. the most essential of his assertions, they went to war not to preserve slavery now regarded as a disingenuous state. one who bears some responsibility tellingly in his memoir which he wrote

here, he originally wanted to call our cause an illusion to say it is the flipside of the misunderstandings i grew up with about why my ancestors put on blue uniforms. so just in that vein i want to take a quick detour. one of the places i visited was in concord massachusetts. this was the home of ralph waldo emerson and it was here i grasped how wrongheaded it is to presume that average mid-19 century farmers and factory workers in new england, harvard sympathies. they didn't. just the word abolitionist made people angry at that age. in fact in the congregationalist church of my childhood in central massachusetts the archives revealed they were

excommunicated the dean of the church because they thought the abolitionist sympathies were too extreme. to most northerners of the time the goal seems to be to solve other people's problems at the expense of their own prosperity which of course relied upon the coffin to fuel the mouse. at emerson himself who already reviewed as the united states greatest philosopher discovered for himself the depth when he went public with his opinions in 1844. the townspeople were reluctant to let him speak in the first place and when he did, calling slavery the habit of oppression he was labeled a fanatic and most people shunned him. this picture was taken much later in 1879. by then his remarkable memory and capacious mind were failing and walt whitman put it rather well when he wrote in the same year that this photograph was

taken and he found the old philosopher in the modest twilight of his old age. a rather kind of label for what was very likely alzheimer's. by then of course the war was long over into the construction was ending and the views of the civil war were shifting in both the north and south and all of which is to say the president davis's story isn't a simple one and it's a mistake to believe that it's all been nicely resolved and congressmen to waste from the the northern or the southern perspective and if that is true of the civil war and for that matter the race relations of the 21st century america. we don't have time to visit the fraction of the site we would like to take you to or introduce the feud of the other characters but in the freewheeling way i

would like you to meet marina howell davis. she married geoff davis when he was on the way to congress and would be a great asset in richmond as the first lady of the house, first lady of the south, i'm sorry. we see her at the white house confederacy in richmond. but my favorite piece actually occurred either after her husband's death. she was approaching the end of her life having moved to new york with their youngest child of a she had befriended another new york widow this was ulysses s. grant. this remained her husbands staunchest defender and she also become a good writer writing a memoir and many articles but on her deathbed having lived long which she knew high times and

very hard ones, her sense of humor seemed to have survived her tribune patients. lying on the bed she offered some advice to her only surviving child on how she should be mourned when she was gone. don't wear black she said. it's bad for your health and it will keep us your husband. thanks to doris kearns goodwin's team of rivals, the bestseller and steven spielberg movie lincoln based on the buck, william henry seward has been rescued from obscurity. he was the secretary of state though he fully expected to win the presidency himself and he survived by his family home in upstate new york. but the image i like best is not at his house for the man himself. here he is looking a bit shoveled as photographed during the civil war and this time the

words come from the historian henry adams. he said he had a big nose, shaggy eyebrows, an orderly hair and clothes. adams concluded he looks like a wise call. true enough, don't you think? i like the old aphorism about john calhoun's political clout as it was observed when he took stuffed south carolina's needs. when i looked at this i thought i can't believe it. and by the way, given the determination on that i can almost hear him uttering his words slavery is a good, positive good. his old plantations arrived. after the death of property came to his daughter and son-in-law. upon their death, there will be

cleaved the financial estate to the state of south carolina for the establishment of a technical and agricultural college and today clemson university is the result where the present terms of his will the old calhoun house is an unexpected survivor than the large landscape of the world-class research. in doing my research about calhoun, i came across one of those ironies that if i were writing fiction i'm not sure i could have waited out. in 1988 the university celebrated the centennial of his generosity. one of the events was a symposium about the victorian women in the south with a number of fine scholars delivering papers on the studies and material culture but it wasn't what the professor said that caught my attention. the very week of the conference clemson was chosen for homecoming.

her pretty and popular face of course adorned the front page of the student newspaper. she was maybe you just african-american. one can only wonder what the old reaction might have been. it's pretty hard not to love history. i want to end with the end of that is that the maddox but i want to look at it much later in 1850 to be exact. the eminent historian douglas friedman was at the podium and before him 20,000 people crowded the streets where four or five years later the generals met to end the war. as the breeze was hitting the flags many of them stars and battle flags and they discarded the final days of the army in northern virginia. the last week in uniform it's

reported that virginia pursued a strategy to follow junction with the army of the general johnston of north carolina. but he had found wherever he turned the scouts brought word free mint with his audience that there is a blue line ahead of us. the author of the four volume biography of the south's great general robert e. lee of 1934 and 35 speaker brings great authority more than might be expected even as a pulitzer prize-winning historian because for him, this is also a family affair. his father a twice wounded veteran at age 22 had stood with him. on april 8, 1965, walker freeman hungry, exhausted had climbed nearby the site of the countless

federal campfires brought in the realization he later told his son that may be generally couldn't get us out of this one. at the site to the much later addressed a younger freeman is the mclean house centerpiece of the courthouse national historical monument. the house looks new in 1950. the paint barely dry due to the meticulous reconstruction engineered by the national parks service. as doctor freeman speaks of the reunion brothers, but to listen hold a particular honor. the brigadier general, ulysses s. grant third retired. a veteran of both world wars. remember this is 1950. when freeman finishes speaking, a 25-year-old salesman from san francisco named robert e. lee, not for smith's the red flag and the blue ribbon essentially opening up to the public on the

farmhouse. i find that coming together, generations after the war ended here e. and yet wonderful. in the years after the dedication of course it's become a place of pilgrimage yet in examining the civil war literature best as it is the recent scholarship concerning the appomattox condo for the historical site suggest how problematic our remembering candy. i will give you one tiny example. the man that owned the house where the grant met face target times after the war. he made a pretty good living during the war speculating that he was casting about the news sources and he settled upon the publication of a surrender to picture. he wrote asking if he would

grant him a couple of sittings and he declined because he truly wanted the war behind him. in the memoir unlike so many other participants, but he carried on with his plan borrowing money commissioned and printed and imaged. his room in the house of appomattox as it is titled proved no bonanza and even wouldn't make back his investment. still, the print is of no small interest. he got the architectural helps correct, but despite the fact, he confused the cast of characters as reproduced lee and grant pictured with his aide and generals including george armstrong custer but he wasn't there. he was miles away during the surrender with his troops on the field. in addition to the wrong clerk

was pictured riding out the terms of surrender. as such may seem minor but they remained symptomatic of the larger carelessness in the troops. appomattox was and is a retrospective place, as are all this high-tech talking about and written about in the book. all are suitable settings considering the humanity of the men and women as they wrestled with the war over race and the union. and making the acquaintance of the players we see they increased contradictory positions but it is clear that to understand them they must not be seen through the lens of the self-satisfied righteousness nor the mythmaking. two employees of his paraphrase of the quoted words of the british novelist, the civil war

era is after all a foreign country and they did things differently. our grasp on how differently can be tenuous. it's a mix of indisputable truths, emotional truths of interpretation of unsolved mysteries all of which can be covered by subjectivity and we need in short to question continually what we've been told and what we are being told because they are almost certainly almost complicated than at first glance but we thought we saw and understood. at the time i spent visiting has left me with a deep respect for the passions and courage of both sides and most of all with a new appreciation for the simple truth that the past is hardly a

fixed destination. get traveling there is very worth the effort, that i am very firmly convinced. thank you for joining me on this evenings little journey. [applause] >> we have time for some questions from the audience. >> we have a microphone coming your way. >> there was a small controversy the past week. there is a marker outside of the property here on the hill honoring the start of the sea. todd gross, the head of the georgia historical society took the lead trying to set the record straight as he was quoted in the papers saying sherman didn't really destroy all that much arbitrarily along the route. he was practicing hard work. did your research into the civil

war shed any light onto how much destruction was perpetrated against the houses and other properties from here to savanna and what did you learn? >> this was an area of lots of people have been asking lots of questions and doing good research and to summarize what i've read which is by no means all of the work we've done that a fair amount of it i think it is true that in general she tried to avoid private property but anything that had any military value the felt was very much care game and it was appropriate to destroy in some way. i think that was true of both sides in the various times and campaigns. i think interest james mcpherson points out in his book when it comes to south carolina, he was a little tougher i think because

there was a perception on the part and it wasn't as if he was a little tougher but his men and so things did get a damaged once they hit the sea of savanna and took a left turn and went north because it was the perception among the soldiers that there were -- south carolina started the war. so i think this is a very complicated area and a lost cause to you at a certain impact exaggerating the damage that sherman had done. on the other hand there were some individual units but probably committed a more mayhem than he would have approved of it it wasn't for/and burn campaign as some would characterize. >> following up on that, are at their houses or were there houses that you wished were

still there that you would have liked to have profiled in your book but for whatever reason they are no longer there? >> i don't know of any that were demolished that we would have liked to have seen but of course the majority of my research began with what's there. we always look at finding a mix of interesting players who can add to narrative into places that are interesting architecturally. certainly some are gone. there's a place called middleton place, and in fact fact there's a house in south carolina that's in the book that's in the same family that was burned by the yankees in 1865. it was one of the great 18th century houses which is gone and