thgsave changed, and what -- where do you think t change s me fom and wh well, first of all, leon, it's great to be herwi y, it's greato be bk atei with soa fiends. thank you for coming out. anit is uly interesting to think ba tt was0 years ag that we m and at that point we had so much hope -- >> hope. >> -- abouteing abl to knit reforming, democratizing russia into the fabric the internatnasyem thate could lift alloa including the lives of 150 mlion russian ople. itsru that one of theirst majo pec ofegotiation that i ever workedon on aer sthedenuclearizationof kazastan, belarus and ukrain i continue tohink that that was theight decision forthe countries to make, toove in th direction o modern eupean

stes that sece themsees through theirrospery,u eipanership th other ro democraci rather than needinnuea weapons. that sa, pa of th dal as you have underscored was e commment of all the bwdes powers -- budes power notably includg the rssn federation, to keep theiran off of th territo of ukraine. obviously,ha has not happened. >> u, u spoke to theelnki coisonf the u.s. congss last apr, a you sid tda ukrainis front l sta i th suge freedom anal the princles tthis commission holea and amoh late in the follow-up tohi billiant articlin t new rubc tl "the btl o uai an everything," thyme snyder ofale wrote: europe also has

no hiory without ukraine. througut th cturiesthe history of ukine revealed the rning points in the histo o europe. this seems to be t tay no it looks like both ynd mnyder e talking abtth same thing,nd t sakre pret high,re they? >> they certainly a. as you know,the unitedtates biptisanfashion for 25 years has loed for aurope ole, free d pc today the number on baleound for that aspirati is in ukrai, andhe way ukraine goes will impa not onlyhe neighborho a the spac betweenkraine and the european uni i theato spac bt ihink will aso ha an impact on the kind o future that the people of russia can canan have. so it is profodlin the ited states' test that ukine succeedin its aspirati t beecratic, to

more prosro, to be ifd, to be more euroan to inteate wiour econoes and toeat the cancer oforption that has plaguedt for so long. and that is why war putting souch effort into it, it is y are working innsely with our europe paners and aie particularly wh the.u.n creased economic support for ukraine now, and tt's why we welcomhe decision the congre in bipartisan fashi to signal its spo asel >> okay. ll return to corruptio and coress. u were in ukraine,hink, rsweek ofcter what did y see? >> u an ts pastri wit vice president -- yeah,right. >> i think' been ukraine eight,ine times the last calendar year. vioay bthit boes and on my n. this lastri was, follow

the --as in november wh vice esent biden, ande were there afr t electns athe raia we working to rm aovnmt. wet that poin advocang a broad coalition gernment with a very strong reform program. as you s abo a week later, that governmenwas formewith larg number ofechnocrats wi ls exrice in the econom inarticular. asyou saw, the government t forward a relativelyobt and concre reform aendancdi things like cutting the plic sect by10 including bad decerazaon of tax auory, includingstng measures again rruption. th ukrainian parliament enrsed that which wa by a very we margin which speaks t stro sport acrs raia parties toeler on what the

ukrainian peop ask aforn those elecon now theyav t impme, and as th ilentwe have to ctinue to supporthe >> let's talk about the u.s. rategy. when y spo to the sate ren ratns committee thi past july, you ouined what, to me, looked like a four-part plan. >> uh-huh. >> supportforkraine's tackling urgent economic, politicaand security challengesdiomatic efforts to deescalate at youalled "the crisis" and toncoura rush s t - russiato e suort fo separatists, demphasize cost and reassuring front wina allies and friend lke geoia an moldo. it's almostbe hlf a year.

>>ur allies andartners to russia oerg pmarily now focused aroundmementation of the peace pla t mskeace an from september that ehe kremlinigned on t butas not yetmpmeed and thenhe final pointhe reassurance to our allies. u've seenhe security support for georg and moldo.

on the ukrai support side,e talked about $320ilon plus theilonollar l guaranen u.s. sppt for ukine in 2014. ryenous authoratns from the congress in the ukrainianreomupport act which allows to more in the cong period. but, of ur,ontied raine stayg the rerm course th cost side,er tough sation imposed jointly by the u.s. and the e.u. in seember, continued discussion abo what more needs to beonhe. but t sameime, making clear thatheanio can be rolled back the minsk protocols are implemented, if russia cles that border w ukin pulls bckquipment d fights in ete ukrne

and hps release hostages. the e the mai points that we wt te and we hve de clear thatsatis wll roll back if,n fac they fulfil their oigatio, but we haven't seen it yet. >> you described lastapl ruia'soccupaon of crime as, quote, ruer stamped by an letite referenm nducted at the barrel of gun. somef my colleagues in this townand outside have en suggesting op-eds that under rtn ndions the u.s. should rogze cry -- crimea's anxation. >> it was complete volatio of internatial law, and once you goow that pat what to stop countries all over the world fro biting offhu of thr neibo a will?

>> in the sech to the joint sessio of core on septeer thth predeof uaine id that one can't fi -- i'm sorry, can't fit aggrsi with blankets. w, last week the senate unimouslassed aill that auores although teqre e president t provi th lethal andoetl military assistce tokraine and reires to expd satis on ssia. iteems n that t president llsi the bill despite me rervions. atanou tell us aboutl of ts? well, ihink tkine eem supportct is emblematic of the so bipartisan, bicamera suppt for ukraine and sspatns thatou see acrsthe united at. and kno from talkg to

rainia tat that has bn very impta to them policay,t's been important tm as ty eko build their form agenda andoknow that they hahe support n just of e administratio b of the american people and their representative 've ha eccular number ofcoreiol letions out ukraine not just ding the my dong period,ut sce demonstratinsuor d whenoue trying to do diict whings to he thational support is ry, verymporta. the bill ges gives the adnistrationutrization for a oa set ofoo, but it so allows csiderae exility to use tose too in a man or thats flexible as see how the situati delops. >> very dlomatic. >>ha you. [lghter] thirty years. [laughte s i couldort of probe tinyit i know t answer, but

let me d it anyw cae aei pays my salar the, soetl aisncm, obviously wre all talki ouefense, antitank, anti-airaf any -- are w closero it tan we were before? >>ell, first of all, let me say think tathe more th pelean be oud of t cuty suprt that wve alrey giveto ukraine. $118 milli incand 20 alone, broad authorization, as sa, om the theonesto do more nex year. benning now t do the equipping drain of ukinn units which is the mo important thingoelp them toe atthr bstow, being wli to give heavy mor and os kinds o things includeing night vio mmications gear,he kinds ofhgs t united states excel i and that the ukrainns

clrly need. thegd oueion, so we've been ing secity suort up to the hi-e, nonlethalefsive range a also considerable support for border sury. i don't ve thenumber my head, butt'atea 70 millionn border securitwhh is important not just t enable us should the ukrainians get access bac to their border in the east, b they're doing hu amount of wo now to harden the rest boer daket a real borders compar the sunflower fields th we saw in tast. wi regard tthe question lethali thinoveheard the ithouse and tony blinkensa that we keep th under review, we're in cotant alue with the ukrnians aout wh will make dference t em. what's mt poant is tat th russians be deterre in furtr addeure.

aenre. >> tanks. now, of cour, defending agains russian aression is just o ofhe ny huge oblems that ukraine ces. and you alluded to i and i just thout that i wou just collect it allin one. you know theisy iex by heart, but let me rete for e dice ukraine islmost eottom of trapanc international's corrupon lis >>eah. >> i gdp is likely to rink by 9%his year,nd opmistically bynothe 3 ne year. it hd currency resves at ilon are, are almost inedlyow for country that size. d their currency ha lost half of itsvae this year. w,n testimony tohe sate fore ratns committee you said tt e mostasng antidote toepatism a tsidinrference in the

meumerm is fkrne to beat back corrtion, and poroshenko seems to have areed to that. hepo again speing t to the congss in september, he said, fact, he listed what he ll t sins ofhe raian ite; corruption, bureaucra andynism. so some tou love along with assistance >> absolutely. and, y know, we certainly believe and tnkhe broad joty of rainia believe thatf uai does not beat corruption thi time, if itoe not crea aclean,transparen decratic cotr tn wl oncega blow its chance, and, yo know, that is what -- the maonwas aboutmany things, t was certaly about t ukrainia ople beingsiof being runed of by tir leads -- ripped off by their leaders, by oligahs by a nontrapant system. they wanoprtit they wan

to know where e moneys gog,hey want a free mket onomy. they don'tan a small hanul of excellentacrates nng that -- colu to accute anyme. that's what thatovernment was elteon, and tat's what the government has commied to. ere is lot of god detail in th government'srogram now they're gog toavto le i weetarting to see good prress i placei kie cityhe mayorlich has becomehe kingf e-governance, and -- >> heannfce i. >> he c, can, and he's trng toak gveme procurement tnsrent, he' trying to pt l the coracting onne so everye can se thgernment pgram ao inud a very ambitis program o dentralization, of x, local spending,tc to redu t number o layers, t oprtity forripoffs inhe system. th is what they're gngo ve to do, and it's goi toe very, veryard work, and

they're goingo need a lot of lp doing it wch is why a goodhunk of our technal assistan and the e.' assistance will bearrk for that kind ofor >> thanks. youspk to hse foreign relations mmtee inay and uathat theu.s. and sa itsal -- its ai remain mmitted to a diplomac offram shldussia choo to taket. no iould liktoalk about this fr f a mment, i may. there seemtoe aonnsus emergi amo independent russian aalysts that at least to a large tent the c mean adventure -- crimeanadventure was aclsi strategyf thoritian remes; that is, boost domescegimacy and popularity and justy repression. byroding, by arnggor a confroatn t outside and

hopingfo patriot mobilization the inse. the'noing ne here, course i thi in henry iv, shakpeare s nr lling harry, the futu hry,his: gt liwith foreign quarls lest th getooeamy sc given that the government has beenrey successful in patriotic mobizion and given at jstyou know, the headline of tay and l past weekr s that rsisot ci jus a recession, but ssibly a crisis on tne ndnd given the fact that,as said,in e fact thatt ha scefuy sweth ecomicssues unrthe g far as domestic pitical siatn is concne h

asable is itto hopehat ss will, inac takehat framp give thatheege badly needs n boost in legitimacy? or- is is simply one opon, to libeli, to decentralize, to dhahas bn sgeed rfiveears, or do e opsi, do the classic authorarian thing which is up the ante an insteadf taking framp, startibblin for exple, inhe bt states in der toontinue wth what has en prettysuccessful patriot you can mobilization? >>- patriotic molization? well, ln,he's loin the withdwou phrased this, so i don't know exacy whereo star >> fro any angle. >> ectly. oknouestion that the -- there's no quesonth the russiaeconomy was aea in trouble when e kremlinho

to bite off crim, andt was a ve nce distraction from the fact that the ecomy was already no goin to owt thatoment. t it esn't chgethe fact that thetcte e ssn state, the rssn onomy, proerity has and over t 20 yrs at russns haveeeallowed to vote for ei leaders. the russian econo iseey knitted to the glal eony, and thatlso cat pouny,ut it creat vulnerility for auoritarian regimes. now, whether or not those making cisions inusaver the last year -- >>inaudible] -- ful ueroo their vulnerabily toretaonal things ke thea tat when yoviolat iternatnal w peatedly, it has a knock-o effect on the eirment for

investme in your country n ention theonrats that alrey isd and we growg inside theussian stem or whherit's the fct at there'sh wveone through sanctions on the one ndut alsohe illing effectt has on willingness to invest fth whenhere's that kindf unrtainty. bu the largest iueer i thk, is th broader ecomi mismanement erorth a decade whe the russian economy was not diversied ayrom hyocbo. an the russian pple, i thi, di tapeciate how vulnerab ty were to this la of divsicaon. i think because th kremlin fuy ctrs information now intomoouholds, they also dn appreciate the costs these adveures in ukraine. no olythe material costf maintaintensof thousands o russia sdis the bder

of ukraine or crimea, but also the knock-off fe of nctions and ilation, etc. and n i comingig to russianiten tables whhe vaatn of the rub,with thnftion gne wild,i th costf borrowing, et so t estion ill this stt a conversationnside ruia autthe course that theye on autheact that the kreml has prioritiz thei foreigndventus over the we bei o e russia peleow? t to mentioalthe russn mothersnd glfriends a sters a pant who lt childrenn the veure in the east when any russian wre killed >>owconcerd e you about thebaltics? >> well, tnk you know tat wee a huge amount of effort int makingit absolutely clear tha nato space nsoil bl. three presideia trips

europe this year, the investmen clinalst aillion lls reinrcement tt theongress has n prried, thwork we've done at nato cluding at the was mm, as i said,and, sea and areao make car tt you n'mess wh natollies. we've als hadntsi consultationit ebaic countries asave our nat allies on an integrated apoa to defense. u see them srengthening bord security,now y see allies fm all cotries rtipating ther ju t say that thiwanot our choicuthiss a car necessy w t inse that, fit of a, tose countries fe secure, f all28 allies there for them, but also wea absolutelyle that this is t an advtuthat abo ghtoe in on. >> you mentied thenfmaon that gets tovery rssn.

now, one of thesoce prably a key srce of that suessn trtic bizaon was, ofoue, a nopolisticraganda. >> yeah. >>nd i relltis omy misspent moscow youth a true it furpasses anythg that i saw in te '70s jstn sheer cynicism and not tention chlogy and t rea. no russianhave bn making quite asport of it one hem a rentosting on the sb, i th knockedhe propaganda line in th way:ll the votions humit benng thucifer rebell onagains g he been designe by t uted stas in oer to detract omhelory of ruia [laughter] swe preducifer

th's qte -- i'm cin that. ww. >> b, coue,his is raft tou tears. ts is uger through tears. acouple of weeksgoddressing thnaon in the state o russia, esentut said thatthe uned statessuor vien,urder and burning people alive iukraine. w, i'm bringing thi up because there ha enuite a pre place accordinto u rsaln allthis. an i brgh you,nd i'll ge it to yoas a souveni tss just aew randomly-leed intoutof aicles. now, i know you'reluent in ssian, but for the audience lete tranate just t headlis that wer clected here of the articles tat we hae. neans words -- nand's words -- [inaudible] nuland did not mntn s.

anto newovernment i raine. kiev infestedwi n-nis is s. piece work. nundrriveskrne togive poshenko mahing oers prr elections. nuland is peparing a new maidong in kiev. [laughte now, what y tnk of all of thnd how it aects yo and the'the questionth i wa wted tosk yo tse coieth you distbud o-democracy demonstratorsn moow and kiev tha rkled the moscow propagandis especily do you hava recip [lauter] and ifou do and isot corited, we'll beappy post it on the aei site. [lghr] >> first all, tocoect some - [speaking russn] they were sdwhes, they were not ckies. ah in wch instance? both moscoand ataidong?

>> don't thinka t ndches moscow, d any. >> well, you wer suppo to -- okay, all rght. ..

and then wht happenedast 1:00 in e rning were all awakeand beause he had order the secrity forces. there were some 2,000 youngus pushing on to thinnocent monstators while wer there. what appened w h started ngg the ell astted nging and theynd u rrnding eitreieved at about 3:00 in th morng. we issued a stement ght in the middle. secrety kerry secretary kerry called it disgusti that ey we putin secutyforces. so the next morg the feeling was that i couldn't do to

seth lders regularly doing thiserd t i idn't feel in thclaic tradition that i could go ety adedso we brought them tthe demonstrators bual gavethem to these poor18, 19, 20-yr-d ukraini kid. it waa sympathy with the horrible situationhathey had put the ukrainians and putting them agastacother. obviously itwasn't useful o e opaganda to point t at there are piures o m giving em into the = tonsf the structure ich was also aided d abetted from h north.

as to make this is a very important move to htory becausehey ae ver the russian medi. >>hat said, the united states will nevere y ou supporting effortsorore democracy, moreopular chice >> if you don't mind if you have a few minus. >> iyou coulddeti yourse. >> tha y very much orthe very intereinsty. d ke to ask rig now is a discussion aut $50 billion ed for uraine -- sorry, i'm

from the petersoinstitute. in addion to the foding aeady cmmitt moe money will be needor the next tw years, soetng like $60 billio of course you cat say anything abouhow much it has to dowith but how dyou e that process inforrd thn there would behe confree an how doyou ee this procs ingforwa o >> he has been a ment a a championorwo three decades fo those ross the ace

ank you for those th yo've done all the years. wi rega to the ukraine program, you willhave seenthe niorleadershipithinkraine isweek issuedt plic validation othe refom program going fowa. 'sgoing to ed a significant adstment that there is a fial plled outf e o have ten to 15 billion. wehaveeen workingwith e imf anthukiniansnd workg wit senior member at on the abily that we would all ve if ey sty on track toelp fill the role and antcipae the imfwl coe forward withheonusions relative srtly. weexpec.

internlye haveen prepin. wwi be earing what te imf requires but weve also been an in very active conveatns with the eu there is neededow beginning edow beginning to get theu mber states ready as wl. but agan thi has be pegged to the imemtation ofthe refo. itas to bepegged t the mist commia governmt governnt coming in for coite and the ukrainian people meeting their cmien to the interniol cmy get it right thistime i liberalizinthecomand making t better ithewrld

syst. tnk you, madame secretary pase identif ourelf. >> the cef polical corspde, to quick questions. rst come had the sanctio made anyoticeae change is th ycan detect in the ren-licydealing wi ukraine or any other cntry i the second comg y m very wel know, they rewie to theold promisesiven by the stn powersto rssia25 years ago about t expain to and the continu sector raine coming a membe in

orgia they speculare responsible fothe rcent actis. ulyocomment on that? >> there reo promesade that iwod ve a veto any point by t ldethat i am aware over oth countries sovereign oi of allance. it nth way thatwe do busine a abo tt tells you otherwise doesn' ow the true siation. >> with regard to e fect of sanctions, i ink the marke informtion tt are seein from the sot toy is a clear indicaon. they've put aressure that the u. and europe and otrs have brght to bear on the russiaeconomy an its havi eec personally believehathe might have benn more

aggressive actns in ukraine had we not hd the set of measurtogether d hadthey not been completelunorm lo with auiajapan and others i our appoa. there re en worse opportunies than what we saw ov t course of the year. but w we have reallytoxic ckil witthe effect of sanctions withowl pices and ththimpact finally ing held insdeussia the ecom mmagement of the lasteno 15 years whe th ecomis so hydrarn dependent. and so, it is a oint of decisionakg i thik for t

leadershipndheeople. whhethis aggressive pocy is orth it anwhther tis chcet prioritize the ambition ovethe nee oyour own citizens over ei well-beingisin th best inrest o the russian feration. cld youdentify yourself, please. >> i am a rainian political jonalist. in totalpet about 20 eks to share eernc o t rod. rst, i wou like toexes rard for the ranian

pele. and second,probably you are more awre. around 80%cmesfro [inaib] 'sround , 50 year ihave sme ith maybe 60 ar history. , l moden pons which can ceived, itoe frm russians. an eve though in ptember or

president me the deb s u probably know d eay this istrue i interviewed some afghantan vte w were engaged in t oviet union ad went toeasternkraine d aid mpiein afgnistan in comparison with tseolks at wabause all lesion a the mostdangerous. but -- i'm sorr-- >> the queioisan we xpect the mitay sport regarding thisnd are yu aware that ty will never stepacfr eastern ukrine

>>ha y for that. just to y with regard to yr particular oncern, w have been in discussion with the government on thi problem rticully after t xtreme fighting inugust and sepmber that ruld in t loss of so much equipmentnas theice president annocewh hwas in ukraine re now pving an oppoun to have thei vecles coming back f afghanistannd the ukrinns are pretty gooat fixing stuff, a lot of that wil e preparand de ready ukine itlf. buyore abolely right. part o he uen therefo docket is tht thentire ruure of procuremen managent of the ukraian

litary is icto havto e realigned andthat's goingto take suppo a effort and th'shyne of our ma lines of wk ithukraine is is ttom-up review o mary atthe air at thend da aseeconductg t equippg d aing o ukinn litaryttheir request o we are ver much focused that. again,ewill ontinue tose r oos of lotic pre t also diplomac opportunitietoryo t t ruia to fl e mmments that t me. e reent signed by ssia by theeparatists on septb september a eboten ptber 19 i aoand fair de b i quires the return of the iertional border to vereignty, closiit to the

fuher transfs of peronel it requires a withdraalof t reign foreignors d militaryndt requires uo exchgeso that is whate are puin for we willontinue to y atf that is full implented, the sanctis wille rolled ba. >> thanks. right hre. madame secretarythk u for your time the the >> who aueha >> david. dame secretary, n thlast point, t lt recent sech aimed to brerrti what s t the tle back in augu. that is the cutting loose as an ideological project puhing back thcos ontokraine and st eyeep crimea and it rt

of amulligan. ter the men's agreement that you mentioned,he brigade wet in ifecember 26 going forrdhe resurrecng, m qution toou is how do we test the ussians but it's not e anoertruth particular gen th nctions in euro into o stages i think early ithe spring andhein the sme are scheduleautomatically and nd down if ot renewed. are t paying a diffent ga tgeouof the sactns itthe same kind that th offered usfrom eta? look i what i have long sin stopped trngtoget inse e

head ofcisionmakersan it sn been a prductive exercise. what we artrngo i to ma itclearhat there is anth o. but the escalation ppens on e rssi side,t ll have been on the u.s. tmake ear that wha we are ki as they live tthe oblitions that they unrtk i september. tritnally in that part of the world napoleon unou at pens. soheueion is n we us is period when the fiti i vea god game intohe questi i evideenow have ol heads prevailndo get back on th athat bring

peacend secity. thukinian governme understandth ithe border ts close andf they can av acss agait thr own people tir own cities thatthe an enormous reconruion joto be do if people hve suffered aug amount anwe are prared to help. but not in a cirumstanere assistance istento fuel e wod hurt fort, t a rcumstance where500 pices of additional milarequipment have gone in since thegrment wa sned so weave to hope att comes at a etterplace but that isve much t hands of tsehaarfuin the fire

>> im from belas picy blog. sie he beginning o e wr r rae thr h bn som nserle chae in te rhor o the united stes with regards to theregme althoughhe h been no changenthe doestic overseas acces. n u anhingabut the pocyhae of the ited stes, ithere sothing ongog in thi regard and thsecond question is abo the statement of the rusan foreign minter to depy clr aponsn mea hat would be t rpoe t united stas? >>n the las poin, crimea

buildso kraine andny effort to fth militized t regi wuld be extrely daerous ndou b unanswered by those ofs that live in at eighborhod. onheuestion of belarus, a nosure what you a rering to. we have fo many yars dialogue regardg e cones abtumanights or t poti enrmt it been intestg theoue of t last year u' sn hat we've seen icis the leadershipin larus is quit unmftae beinoffered a binary choic and i rmb seeing the mist o belarus i tember at then nel sembly and llg hi that tey have done more for their country and

hang th town of minsk. but we remain en o a warme and ingrated rlatnsip as thuman rigs siation improvesnd we have giv se ncreteideas. we've been ab tgi small eps together t it's in the hands tleadrshi whether ey wantoakeei country a dmocti drection and we wod aeto repond. >> right over ther yes, si. ou tperson with the carathe.

>> tnk yo. my questiono you, i'm su you'vehea- the eti inllen eview reto gie obably se t lter th has be ciruedandsigned by 1 gman ofcials clinthehancellor anit wa titlen inur ne and of the letter esn sa ose th would povoke rusia at renred thlast person to tack russia washitler and wa dstroyed. now th icong fro mans. you coul magine tevel f fear that existamg rtain people authigog towards ll confrontation potentiallyuclear so, my son is re ou in the misation prepare shhis thing all the y to

theevel omita nfrontion wth ussi and if it did go to that, wouldyou coider that aaid policy or ishat pa o the strategto eventual gthat f ineed be i wou underscore thefac th t resonsehat t u.s. and europeasroht toar should dretion of ukraine s been to use theonsiderable onic tst our spal in trm ofanctions and potil tools in the form of sanctions ad ilaon. we have nocheno militarize what we re dog military is protting the terriryeuse we have treatyobligatns ould that to alls come under tack. so t is rusa that has chen the cose of aggressi. a seeking to chge the

choicesto brin tm backnto compliceit iterniol law primary forlitical tools. >> i am wh he russi new agency. we areold friend y ara very sllfulof the sion. i thk ia olhat ors ear. anmake anyway come t t questions. one from last --aoand

myself. they saiyoha a steit tching what w hpeningit the maysia aili which is a major iletoe. why are yosharg the results tgenerations russ has ensking for this for very lg time. it's a verimrtt in th second, thyre ithe fefntorllf n and my question is sple. wh ou quote the ssian econom-- and by theway, i am ilsurpsebybserving atou do wat ve the economy d heople and y ju dcribed why because he wanted peoleo bud which

isalled the regime hange but enouuote the rsian ony, o you harm or hlp thank yo >> fstith rar to th pot f the u.s. teigce at the timof the malaysi rliners, just tosa tyou that, tremi you etary kerry and i believe wasjuly july1 t w the satury te the soodown heve veetiled cussion fwhat we knew the asset including pridin cnsiderable tao the trajectory of fring etc. and heade clear t te thatt shot dn by a

missesepratist error we sta bthat. hae given ll oour yur information clinthcle of tt ifrmation. 's to the civil aatn organizati. so ay eors tosy there wil belief in t conte of th utch ase when they ll it out theare likelyto as us to declassify se tt nd i thk thate ll be able to help in that rerd tthe best decied set of infoationis still ntained in whasecretary kerry sa th they. beevit was the saturday of the 21st of idn't i don't hav itn hea

ave lso ben very ea blly and prite ith russian fdertio. we have eured b to seek informatio fomrusa because erhabeen a t of ries comingut o the russi pragda. now on the scond pn i coletely reject your assertion that we seek to hurteople on thcontra. we hadout r 20, yrs to s e rusiapellived aore osperous, more democrti more on d acul cotry at is at i have pesoy coitd my dlomac carer to overall these yes. that'shat we havcomied some $20 lln inthe u.. citizenso e russn fedetion over ts years.

ouconcern though ishaits the choices e ssn adsh tt is makg at are nowtaking rsibk a place o isolationo ple where it is osed ofa ople are os off n just fro ean demoat open inrti, ut he kmlin praganda camign bual from theirccs to euroe and markets and acss that opportunit to live in more en ociety. even things le di our hh schoolxcan which bght some 200 russian dso america everyyear. t it's oth aceokn al of therussianstudents ay bring it back.

wt a chceo go study in e unite states. as the relatioshiwe want want into ats te russia ouinerest is a rusia that is strong and docrac d ves up to its teatna obligationits good partner rs r u to dispel allind of ings and siormation nd clarify. soor fiveminuteov what yod ke to take u five minuteor shall we s?

li

revisit austin texas. >> we are in the private suite for lyndon johnson. this is private quarters for the president and first lady. when i say private i do mean it. it isn't part of a tour that is offered to the public. this has never been open to the public. and you're seeing it because of c-span's special access. they are coming to the space just as they did.

it is assigned among others that are than archivists of the united states and the lady byrd johnson telling my predecessors, myself and my successors that nothing in this room could change. >> so we are here at the 100 block in austin and to my left just down the block and this is an important historic site in the history. it's when they got wind of this. so when they jumped on their

horses it wasn't really the avenue but it was a muddy ravine that went north to where the the capital sits and they galloped on their horses and rode into the midst of that of the firing and shopping and they shot this enormous buffalo and from there he went to the top of the hill where the capital is and they told everybody that this should be the future empire. >> the subcommittee recently held a hearing on the potential impact of repealing a decade-old ban against exporting u.s. oil. production in the u.s. is a significantly reaching 8.8 million barrels a day while u.s. fuel consumption is declining. this is two hours and 20 minutes.

>> i like to call the hearing to order this morning. and before we get into the subject of the hearing, i would like to mention that this will be the last hearing of the 113th congress for the subcommittee and there were a number of members who will not be coming back. he was involved in a car accident during the election and i think it's still in the

hospital. we have leads kerry from the great state of nebraska on the subcommittee and doctor bill cassidy will be moving over to the u.s. u.s. senate and cory gardner will be moving up to the u.s. senate. but i just want to thank them for the contributions they've made and for the great job but they that they did representing their constituents. and then on the democratic side, of course the ranking member henry waxman of california served many years on this committee is the journey and it is ranking member will not be returning into returning and mr. john dingell as all of you know as the chairman of the committee for many years. john of georgia and donna christensen of the virgin islands. so i just wanted to thank all of them for their many contributions and with that you can talk about that in their opening statements.

but anyway, i will go on at this time for an opening statement. this morning's hearing we are going to be focused on the energy policy and conservation act of 1975. we are going to get a little history lesson as many of you remember that act established the price controls on domestic oil and also established the strategic petroleum reserve and also established the café standards and also set the prohibition on the export of crude oil. as you know, ronald reagan dominated the price controls when he became president, certainly strategic petroleum reserve in a café standards are still out there and have a great impact on our economy and our society. and the big question that we hear more and more about is the

wisdom of maintaining this prohibition on the export of crude oil. of course under the act president does the president does have the authority to allow the export. joe barton and others raised the issue of adopting legislation that would remove this prohibition. and just as we have extensive review of the impact of such a move on the export of natural gas that's what we intended to do on intend to do on this question of the export of crude oil so we will have a lot of hearings and we want to hear from all sides of the issue because there are a lot of different opinions about it and that's why we are delighted to have our distinguished witnesses with us this morning to provide us with a historical perspective and we will be having more hearings about it because as i said we want to be very thorough

before we make a decision to go one way or the other and with that, i would yield back the balance of my time and recognize the gentleman from illinois for his opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman and i also want to thank and congratulate and commend those members on the subcommittee. they were all very highly esteemed [inaudible] and i just want to ask them for good riddance and many continued blessings as they move forward in their lives. i want to take time in my

opening statement to mr. waxman who has been the chairman of the committee and an extraordinary leader on environmental issues and other issues and the protection of the environment against the realities we are confronted with today on climate change and many others. and i would also take a moment out of my opening statement statements to commend the one man who has been affecting my life more than any other legislator and that is congressman john dingell. he's only been a true friend of mine and help advise me that he's the kind of legislator who

you can learn just by watching him you don't have to be doing anything you just learned how he operates and watch him from afar just watching the example in fact on this congress. so mr. chairman, i want to thank all of those party members for their contribution. and i want to thank you mr. chairman for holding this important hearing. as we move into an era of the new energy renaissance. it's associated in the crude oil during the recent surge in the domestic production. i think it is entirely appropriate to the conservation

act of 1975 which restricts the export and as the conditions today assisted dramatically from the 1970s when the bill was first enacted. however it is how long the production will last and what type of impact permanently i might have had on the domestic consumers. mr. chairman, there comes an issue they truly open mind, and i look forward to hearing from today's panel of experts, to be more specific than looking for answers regarding how this would impact the american families and the economy in general who would

reside to the domestic gas prices, the consumers, manufacturing and jobs. mr. chairman, i'm going to close my mouth and opened my mind. i yield my time back mr. chairman. thank you very muc >> they stcted mto do all e speaking a so i cognize you forive minutes. >>f y need some othat time i can getsome of t back. do wan t tkfor acouple ofinutes. >> thank y m chairman. we have a nuerf mbs on

thecomittebut pbay were t aliv whn we testet energyolicy conservaonct 5. in that sa time. oh and i believe ith act,we puio place a n t export o crue oil. th lal carl had inoil nd borrow agasthenited states anestern eurpe, and it devastedurconomy ian emember livin te nd could buy 10 gallsf gas on aug8 to e the days based othigit of cense ate. th wa't fn. erwe gas lines, thereer

ants closi. we wer odcing. can'temember exactly buwe wereproably oducing five or 6 lln rrels of oil day ate reconsuming t neighborhood of ten or 15 to i thnk. suorng the b on crude oil exports at he time madesome sense. wh ithsuation today mr. chaian thuned states the number onproducer on a libas in the worl ay will prode the neighbho of ni a a haf llion barrelsf o in the it states of america if y cbi te oil that w impo fm naand mexo, our nafta partners, you can put that another 2 million barrels a day maybe even three. the consumption is down. the production is up.

the sult is tt of a 11biiodollar l th is agoodhi f t american onsumer m. chairm. 'sood thinyou'reolng th hri and iou he in thnewcngrs 54 ersmplanit ves e n cde pos. wd wt n peolmeserve. it aifre wld to mrchrm ife loth pduce t

imrt t unedstas puprsun sa d crteobhe athoane keurth tt rl pice ulsethcreoil ri i bad supply a dandnd thais gd ingor erod m trelplsed th yoreoldinghis hri and wou a y ao to lk su as threwae fel stdard a ow w ntntioushiisn e lf coast stes bt i thinhwe ould also lo athjes act and as i sai earli, te stragipeolm reserve. thhai ill ha aut mite.

>> thaclus the opening statements ande ve distinguished ne ofwitesses the firseing satement he's no stranger to the neand we welcomyou ba mr. ministto you e recogniz for ve minutes for your opening statement. >> chairman, ngssman ruh, members of tsubcommitte thank yofotheopportunity beere tody to exessh history ofhe u.sban onrude l expots and to cntrast th maetonditions at the te the nd prpo today. e s. energy infoation

administration i a aytial agcy at the partment o engy by lawthe daa in alysis recastar dependent of t approval any other ofceor empyee of the u.s. overnmen as of eew expesse here shoun' cotrd as represenng the of t dertntf er or any otrfederalagecy thte of the passage of thnergy polcyact f95, the s.mpts o proum were rising radlue t t mestic proctn ilthe growthndonmponas rocketg . yoesmai mprts dbl between 19to 7 from 3.2 t 8.6 million barrels per da. e iving impt th total arofonsmptfrom22% t % intrnatnally wnthe cled anoiembargo agin e it stes in 13. 65% oftherisngrude ol imports wromi fr he

untries torotect coumers fr t pre s, s. policyesnse of thef t ti w tlit pricfr alpruced from the s. while isnin 1972 whe long theew sell t e word maket pricesan ming eor eventthe meicri trols hower is thcrtion o neanol lpicg d n lee emhe pction declines amell23 beeen 1973to 18 wlear hepoy wasn't rking and e alloti controls wremed at is on freumb t o testiny rneary theeces afr th reoval th pic ntls the declini oducti coupled ithdema sh tdsveineasing expos til thepts as tau. petroleum nmpon ch had 60 in 05.

thy remnen plcebut limitemfitis fromim toimalwetoe expes i canada ad odti fm alas twent thou. nce00,howeer, thse coitionsavbeen rerd rtly as a su othrowth destic pplies dalsas a resu of slowin mand. 's increas b 4 lln rrels a y 68% to thhieslevel ce 1986. anile, between 20 and 2 is earwe are timin fo the fu yartol s.iquid nsptn fll fm 9.5 miioo18.9illion thu. went omhe wor laes nt impoer to becmg

bi export, neexpte of treum products. in01the net impts as she t tal.s consumio i w do toel 30%, clo 2 the amic prodtion growth inhe.s. continent i canad sultedn thelogstical cotrntisefcted ith wi viation for the domtill pudandt sold f t pmi o$2. higher t tt wchom omhe nhea 01 th he been trdi at dcount over a bael e late srt trmfrecas tren ithpetroleum markets willontnuint20 with e domest cdeil oducton ering4 llion rrs a da 10% ave h 2014 ve

sone dman andetmrt are share des coumion cobe% as a ce ramac cle y fectour tlook bu it's me inhehort term. treumarket forrdictions toda re e tann he exrtwe active. thtrds in e market ave revers th,the e was risg pidly in the produiowa lling ow the odtin is ringaplyndemd is lling. the pductioitn l-time ghndurpass the previ co set 1973to gasoli ma ido fm iak a isiky to decne en more s e hicle eebeme more efient. additionohe re reversal, t intertional oil prucon was cerate sharofoucoisown r 53in 1 t at %today.

th etenceofhe oil ntcts on the future marks to the develme oh bencar pricingnd avlality o bic da ead y ongrs1977ad l t ught t gater trspen tth oil marke dcredn wtt stement,heare vy rsng nber ofmptant initiatives reted tothe tilissndheetlsf oil mrketa d i wuld lke tnkouor the opptuty to testi hee d andiop toe ae nsweryo questions. thk u. >> tha y vy ch anthnex winessshe pridt e er pic resear founatand you a ecnized for five minutes breo turnou crho oth wt ould likto do is t lile bit this in ntext d t firs thing i

think oht to lk bou is what is enr sury backs it is a contration revend unab ptsf e world whhnd to prodtht skto he... th a resict ouutnd chgehigher pris tha evled iheor competive enviroent and nuerwosoebody s to g ouof sinsfore the peroes it othnaon econo. so, e the btway toal with th teawi ts probm t hav ductio t sblpa othe wod atur oto b no amic anifou look at whahappen he ithis sdeyo cane th itook the.san ca geer whh the ngressn just spe abu. we hhad aemarkae incrse in e oucon and it's vy portantooo at

this throh e rthmeca nsecauset ts nsor thiss hetabl at i isap run the prouion paicular if yncle e tul s qus atas de a remkabl han. n, y an s thepc ha meow but i donhink th w qu undersnd what this mas. e ducti iprice. d testified enheembers of iwilee owfedo x. or y.e wi get more produconutt ll just cut threcton a iwot ce do. th pr decasis an orus benefittohe wold enomy. theworldonsmes and will ge a sangof apoxately .3rillion n year se perst. inheameric driv snds ou$300 yr n gasoline isoing tgean00ther sang this is an enormous bod

net to t niolecoomy, toheor come intoheor economy, and iisei delived to us ghhese prodti geshat were hangnhisstlenoh amic platfm. d wt pserve t atform weantoakthe distribution efcient d at's whye nd keystonende want ha od regulio a enupth federal land a lot m. l isoduconasom fr feral ld. xtli. >>hishs the acvifor thoil gadrling permits ju 90 days priotoh cision fthe 201 of crswereonrned that thewer icsnsomare getting mevincth t peant tivitys cong f. d i thk ats ood reon to ve hearing. need look he hole gutottue nd y okay wt we need tdoo ma iasfficie a pssle touson ain, wean thisplatfom.

weanit toperorm abest poible. anweronerd out th and wmetitso of the world's best eraion tenogists in t s cole ofayand the's a lot of exti tngs gog ou the. as lg as weav aopen syst ihi ware gngto find t divedown tes trti costs. the werereery interesting thingsappeni. next sde. th i o estat sort of0-lr vinmt whate ink would tnkhe.s. cod at let the ne-tm. wereroci a ld we arnosu h mh iss going toe sturbeby the lowel pces obablyoi tse sm duionbu the outlis ill veryosive. next side. wao avyowi just cole thng the fht isuit iestng

tritnay e nvtial oil had a yust dline ra of abe%na pry highecoverasuc as0% ido tin have igh cle te n tse unconvtional resourcese he w. we h to ke dlling. threve isuitema smallimprvements the recoveryacr e into make b fenc has why wewant e e chlo contiet ogress if youooat te whole of americsucess o and ke minde shouldav aot of unity about w w pe. weavmaat oetholnd six monsfte ueactt evtethusofhenatura s. as wegorwd i tik w e mbs talkbout iwh e the netsf an on

stem. t ougloist set in the 30 we'll firstiscoved the ndfanand we wt keephe intleual capac gog. thenex wne iaenr fellow at thbrkings inition. thanyofor beinwiu and yoare coizdor five nus. thankou mr. chamaan corema ivitg mto teifthi moinon the igs the crudeil exs and, whi inillwa enacteinearly years ago. given th fndhaesha haveccreinhe unconvtialroduio th wee alrey ard abou ver e last siyeas iink t' portantooo ck mindurlves h t erg situation s eldsinc 75 in theears por to th oil emrgo, the if issues donangheney poli i th united stat w deat

erheut of nuear poweespeiayhhe we shldrecycle eutium an develop atr reto react anpre ntl the pst oil annaragas, wi imagine you we acd by presidt nixn ba 1 ad i'coerdthat inftionas rehedaers veofhe 4.. anofhearusroambo tholuta labein cporate ma maato il mprt program toat dn the lel imports as a precon r r dsti idsy. revie tsistor commanthis arica pot,hastds outisjust isth ase toy. mo ergy ises w scussed isolaonn e another. the gpolitil frontfhe early 70so mentouchange inheide east and nth ri it was deseby the rn and then rpoe e cle raprs e jor l-pdung

countrimoed a nifed campgn agin the petroum mpies to extct morof the econic rent fr thoil odti. the agreen tt re netied tehan androl beeethoicoansnd oc, e oc onolede infln t see thewere nobeing tretedairly the international oiloanies d demaed majorncasinhe icof oil. afr es rmes, o ab t introduce antion au in the contra tt it believedou protect t mbsfroinflti a dirod wer not t ca. that wtheled was ed thsuing dendfthe worldwidbuon i e uted ates, but western ro a pa wch lowd ec ery tima nactwasp f the regoat tdend furer upward prievisions. 'swoh nongit uldn't

veeen mo dffentn th are todays heardro the cgsa the dend foo throughut thntriized rlwas skocting in the uned states to thpltiodtn aked 10 meetg he canetask fce to coen the raal eimnaion o he qua dethe maatory oil imrtrogm. rtroectivhe ange of thcircumans nfntg th u.s.it rearkablth ths coendation did n reive mor saenfrom the core dpi t fact th e u.s. olonumpio w yrketingn t destic oducti w eeking itth lmposwere up to early % t csuti oth atf e oilar terr e s.oun' haveeen mo ill-prepar foth embar. in respons one othprar acon tk with e actment ofheomplex regulaty pcerefooil anas pricesas well s ncdiy colesyem of llocation

controls, leadingo sone lines in the district o he sulusuli in t pomac. .. in uppesf erls and uienfor thexorio anproductionefinand trsptaonf er. t ahothpresidto

acntexport from s reriio were in so s emed by e psident to e tional inrest. fbi tday rsultorud o heinxcptismadere edominately forshits to eadigorsin anaand mexicoinrecogti ur hior tdi relatnsps otr ceio a notedn deta imy for tesiny. taythroughmdifitions pc, t. allow rerictedxptsf l fiel eepcre ol. nul gashato g throh a mbsome ruaty seire t i ot . e only eprsei today onruoil inrevwinghe hiory ince the early , iisant wh t u. gornmentas trietoavorpariculfuel ere haveeen unatteed conseqnc wchavee letios eu.s. ecoo into raonenrg seri. ctrols ofnural s ices dothe faito evelop the as natural g

tnsrtio ssem, ein masse natul s ortagein he rrorinhe induri midend te winer f7, 78 budevti onic impcts,some of whc mas to ts day en ingil nds a ndtri ls power power genetion led to a jor swch ay frogaanoitord co. isush tordchl has d to scre facilitieshano ha t b eladwi ou enviroental poli inteaon limte policy. mr. aian i is eviden t u. ergtuiotoy is fadierent om waapls enpcaweced here ut crderouct wolde trimeal toeconocoly to kp e n ud il expts. keepthean natptingo nila policy toonol glally tradecoodiewi hos e s. oiloowll le tenergys flla thu. irt of theglo

market an musthefe ptipa i it. lift teba i gre pamountforeg licy beefs. wl irease s. dpn brkis did major udon is issue that oou weitifnye retoook a t. itill ede nemplymentall of whih wll oroton if th b rai i place. tnk you, mr. chama >>hayo. r next ines orah goon, dirto ot carnegie endownfointernatiintna onal peace yoreecnid for ve inutes >> rain mbesh th an disiniedems t bcommittee, thk u r e oppouny ttify today aboup in aneraf oil transio inyemarks wi discuss rekey point fit eeed o eranhe anngondioninflencing the cde oi ketand the ne fo betrinfmatio abo th mke and specatns of u.s oil fm ugngo ed to do wh the

vironmentacoeqnc fm an uontialiftingf the po ban. xplore these iue imy wrteteimy ich i bmtefoth recor e ottom neis oil is changg. amoeompl arry drocarbo resorcesepcing nvtial oil. bl a privetahoer need t ndetan the vinmtal impts inhit to crude ol. e es way toposion meca oruccs and maener budance iso genera inrmationessary to me se decio ang manoil optio. he ruthisweknow recious tt outhese n resources t ion isrelble, nsstent,etai en souce data aou coti and eratioalement o u.so pad snicant infortion gaps he coanied the nation's oilncas produti. ltugep w apt in snse a set oil suly prleighonrviv telate for arein shortcin tays erica ruletoane th ecnoc

olitical d clate impacts of itnewl bouty wil iporntor pocyero tink coprehenve autheul rgeof cre oil issues. seral positis raib review andondeti a upting. o co aaytheanngil taolctn,akg format bli aille. comeincasg attheoodle efficiency standds for uc anybtosanatth o an prole odt ry to coum s outhoan the, revisinoil accounng acceso the sec is ll inform aut oilfou. markets. era one of thfirst i neo win the unnventional ler despitenefoundr sourcest m he u.s.if is incasoiinrdendent rl. as uch, upoicaks enacefcte fear to mimi untde nsequences an america lle better sitioned tchart a pa tt others canollow. two estns ruire atn.

r,tooliymkers a th ubc,suffcientformaon bo ameca's o. unfortunel ty do t. irally,he ismo tailed open u databout op cden the l he baans, pmian. in sking to obin and ify dta, we'v ecounted vel stacleand data inconsteci t m teledata toovernment limitions o expandg l poting. i'beppy tolara o theissu th orahing cocehowver oi maets nnot function efficitly wiout trspent hi-qlity informaio. esonwo what are e envronmeal is these new oilsupose? carnieendment is deelopinan lcate th comreglal oil ne otr tmsfot eenhouse gpas. togeter wth stanfo universityndhenirsity caar we armoli t enre oilalue chnfor wn e l comeouof the gund

rohow the pdus are ed our preliminarfiin based on 28 saple oil ce agloal ls ehe grnhse gas otints bieby atleas 80%oronenoth. in ot worsrplacing ahi greenhse gasil witaower ne ldalmost hat impas the eeouse g f evy barrel of . several ceries of higr emisonincludeassyoi like thlka or nierwere g assciated wh oil s fledr burn insadf parated and sold. heavy oii meant thse use r hron roh ei valu chain in he bottmfthe br prodcts at permok ua sbstite, ery oils, wch renresting liethose liforia's s joaquin vall where it takes a emendo amount ofnergy to list as much as 50arrels tefo everyone barrelou pruce. extremoi like the gulf of meco below t sfa are

those alberta whereaons naturally seuestere somof theorld's fastest-growing oil oducers, thu. h the opprtitand respsiilityto a lobal lead in e enery sector. banced energyoli informe il transparey st gue er dision king in th satisfy yous csumers, rengthen themerican economy prott e climate and enhance naonal a global ury. cling, a nanal scussion,nenfmeby lile openshoudata abou the competi quali a enroenl profile of ne oi will b key mng eecve and sustainable cisions. thank y. >> tha ou, .gordon and thk you for tetimony at this te. thtime ronize myselr qutis d ene' give erother memb the oprtity as well

ust om aractical asct here, anytimyostt ing abt cud oil, t ofth amic pelthink aut solineprices that is why itis moe voatile when u lk about exporng crude oiand natural gas or metng likeh nyof you hav a opinion if youre rotryu, how yo would einhat porting adtial rudl wold necessilrae sone pres? mr. sieminski mr. aian, it is aways a allenge. uslly at rotylub i sked why prices shi. late ian t that question. eia ha ted to exam your estion from the ndi of w gline pri ar se in

the u.s. mke and what soline prices relateto. what wefound in study t we puisd just short hilago s ahese twobenmark roeshai talked about, the one inhe u.s. coming ofuti last acc and lands inhe internatiol marks that gasoli pric hitocally ndo be much more csely related o nt creoil presn e omestic and smart. e second tngha w fou was he u. gasoline pric tendte oreclosely relat toasolinepresn rks ke sinpo an moderndae in the globa marketand coaringhicago prices with pres in the gulf coast. th onclusiott one would

aw fom thats that gasline pricescse we areorting d poinso mu gaoline, it's really set in the globa rkets. e market tends to reflethe glob maket d that is expor o crudeoil resuedn higher pricefowest texas ntrmedia recruit atar benchmard to tha would not have ch impact onasoline price. >> i'm glad ou mtioned we are rey exporting gali any. >>quite ai acuall dyou have a comme? >> i tnk how would explain it, if you wa costrain all ts validity inhe marketi you wantt consraining galine pce u shold remote a very able and in

pruconf crude oil in nor america. we have evidee iss having a g effec tht i st. as am sa, were well tegrat in the world l make tnly thing we cn dos have a table growing pduion of crudeil outs of these more volileares. >> you have aomment? >>if could justdd mr. chrm, ey y to lo athis i m sieminski said gaslin prices ar predominatelseinthe terational maet if we have a s vlu of crude o inthe rketandsuddenly put more il into the mark havi to supply while demand a condentn thasis fundamtaecoms,ore py demand, prsshd come down nd will end. wish to be copetitive, will

ow theroductri ilung gasoline and pelly fonew enanhome hting fuel. that'she way i fd metimes trying to expla it. m gordon comey of comment? >> it oueeafo consumerto understand that. theois we are n tt refi d't prerentially make mo gasoline. theyakmore es dodo theilighr oils go throughrfirs. wemigt being ready t exporthe perft oil to me more gali in order toee and refne the diesel. it is not a consurss cause our bl doesn' se hese. to use asoline. the big qution at lou ise his latility. consumers need to understad in

t fture the hig pres, t volatile prices. volalill hurt americ cae a equal in large rt to ret prucer of oilnd prodct wereoi t her more than yoneelse. >> well, my time is expired. mr. roch you're regnized for ve ius. >>want tohank you, . chairn. share top o msome o the an there a om cauony item and indicaonth i wat t at let coider for the cord. wh te fimpct wl miss in the crude oil b he on climate ange? e hesete cndition we shld haveconsidered toft

the ba onruil altogee >> iis gat qstion inthe realityf my stimonsaid we just don't kow enough bout these ils wee ing o of amica. wh wdonw fa and ghter oils. our renees are seto n much heavier crude. ey ne much m heat. ey pruce ore botom of e barrel proctofheeaer lsermore greenhouse s intensive re nd we are seinourselves toa reinof higr grnhouse gas lss export ossibly loer eeou g oils to other whh ts a bier brdeno contro i tems of global lite agreements whatwe are doing ene hand off our o. er a al questio fm a climat . whaare tseilnd wt are gin aw? athere any oerth ulli tcomment on this?

let me kou qtn. m ebinger,nyour wtten stimony used it the cre il exports werthe ecomical wes, emoymt trade overall economic o f t natn. what in your opnion are pontlowndeto removin the ban? i don ieve, cogressman, at there is sizabldosis to scene the an, wat gordonsaid hatwe don'tno mplel thempt of eenhouse gases a jorstudy tha brkings celyid it the ecomic conlting fi. w ha data in there and what we think will happen toempymnt ov enomic lier forhe ti a the numbers in vario senari almt

consntyosive. ou dy hase prettyuc second evemae coup me t o us in fiv osix majorsth he is ne by fc, doney e gornme conclde e beef far outweighny potential cots. i gues ileave at that. >> you have any commes he onic impcts >> ener wego to a fre tre alternat h there' lot sreet inecomics. n o is ain free tde tnkt's a goothing and it's going t ak t economy mo eficient but theywill dislocaons. some secto i sesegments of the.s.dustr rcurly if we vehe high productn in aeasill fd temselvesn

a ls onicly advtaged pitn. wever, we ve a ery comex and advad refing vect i the unitedstats. the capacitt complexrus arehere. if we goto ifti th ban on crude oil, w want o and make surou recitg the downstream sector withinof nessary regulions? whats ozone regulations doing? ats the permit doing? inthwords, maybe we needto ok aome kindof adjustmentin the jonesat. isvery tough. ustand. bu ere willjumes. on alance, the enomy will be beer off. in the shor-tm, the rni indust pbay canandle wh isgoigonrighto it s longetm prle, ut i ao think th problimdiely we shod

ooerloselthise, icistaing toost a lo of proem aevil ur. >coressmen rush, the just a tt the reas the s.s eporngsoine fro th f co s thawe hae suluofomtidemand for soline that is deining and leltoontinue down asodd s beome or efficient. in sensewhat refins ar doing pti tsurus product sohat heya more fficientl s the ded for other prdus in the u.s. market that e re alubl. t exrt gasolinma actualbehelpng kep ovra product pricesor.s consumsdown. >> thanyou, mr. cirn. iyiel bac. >> at thitime w recni the gentleman fromex, m.bart

r fe mites. >> i'm lking auntheais first ofal lce mrflorez. gl thave himre. a staer on t cmittee >> dn't s him. om oklahom toveim ere. he amemerw it gong tobe hereext year. s at t peach state. do w have a bann exports of peacs? yes rno oka 've gt mr.mckinley pe. we he baonhexptof al >> ms.apps in california, do we have a ban on the exportof ody's? 've got . mpo, m.kry fromhe cst. weava n on t eor of corn

no. laughter] i wodave enghor ast, r.hairman. my point is thatin a fre mke economy ke tute stats, tere arealst cmoties r oducts w have b on we are tfree mar nation in the world. no'v havbeen poiedut in the190s, the opec rt nd r o udoi t e itstates anwe rtaliatby reati thsttegic troleu rserve an also requiocrdeo withewxctions could be expoedrom the united stes at mesome econom sse and some srategic sense in the 1970s. butthisisn' the 1970 thekey qustn oron of t

key ess ad thehairman ofhe submmittee authory kewhat wold hapn e real the ban? at ould hpe to dostic gali pric? i avet sn any study th says they woulgo p e ersequowold be wh wld happen if went? wt happs t domestic oil pductiointhe near-term, midtm and long-term ife ee the bain ace? not y issue theyre in th art for domtcrude oi us. reineryapacity i thi iaroun 12 million barls a day. hatcoec m. emsk? >>f you add al of he other thgsdost crue oil getting seo 9 mliorrs a day. u get to baddin in

bioels. >> i am askg athe refinery cacity is >> o 16 billion baelper day. >> is ov 1 >> yes, sir iidn' hink tt hi. if weoha a min t it states for thcre l referies, if oucat export ityou keep i inthgrod. 5160000 barls, wean incrse domst pp frly gnifintly a we just freeouor pust ports from ovr. would not be orre? >>ouai intesting poinngressman. ma peopl look atthgrth in domestiproduioa the flne ieand athey ensi a world wrehe.s is not iorng any ol. but nact te.. may coninue to mpt l mply to reinnd ellthse

products. mexic filly fring up eir l ecnomy. they florough eir nstuonal cng youll see it lar be of.s. roce and eploratio oin down to exo eni wou sume there wod aitional oiin mexico at could, to unite d ithe next five six yar he'sme isss on the nvonmental cad have the oi ue i only ve2ecnds. f hd took atthisanel and you h to vote ye no repeangh ban, iin i have teesss d mae. i'gngosk ms.goon. did't seetha th areg institute is total oosed to repealg the ban. i thnk you're earnet transparet dnformaon f

envonmentpurpse. is ttorrect? >>eah, we ha arepevhere beuse dmahas cai lly. there'no a plac toput oil eanow and thativimeto doheue digencewith formation whave a betr sense of what wl ppen en wean policyomay i do think war ad. do y remb i shld d t oil ts onf the efcient ks. the so may baie to exi, no eou formatn, exterlies aretoing isin theoil mark. it i a good queio big eson. >> i he question. ipoible f the eider ale oils bng proceinhe eaglfor and ththenorth dakota to beorted as refined prdusecseheare so ght a amosteedno

refinng? >> they are al diffent omacother. thbalkan oi i ke nigerian ru. ifwe ask r all caw're prablyoi tve imicions f neria in th north sea. ag ford real nual it mu,ch lht a i nes to ha t riedo f t. ere's a ot of dertyer th wdot have a lot of foatnbo. tnk youmrchrm. recognizeth enteman or ktucky,. yarmuthor five utes. tnk you, mr. chrm. i thank the witnesses further testmon nd kowlge. i he learned alo i ilnot su wre i an he iue i curious. tk about the potentl wndes. ilevytng looks wdeul gh now withanabdaof l andetroleum inhe rld and ces ow ha uld seem

t worryi aut crsis. isn itposble ecould tu ta 1970ssitun? i affer here in he 70s anmember those lin asell uld it n beusul to hav least mecongen meurwhheit's an teationa otbea o rrism, wtever wie thatwehae some way t prect our dostic sply in case of emegec opsed oang we e worrieabt thathewe get ? msgordon. >> i think becausee are this eraofewl nd everthing changing, e ris are chngg. w he opolital ris o onhand wh many cesabroad anthen we haveoperation and vinmta risksere th w have to ctent wih. hav newil n conditns and then weave ge grwt in

china terms of demd bette spradic. it is not oig to be redot onsttl. itis marke we talbo oil a ont n tim bee sold oneery coer. hiis the dn ha exists for ll tme. the reitist's ve dynamic anweoulusually tun with riskdiferential rk, nsumption pattns ev in amicwe sailp o su right now. they rea tmeously. eyre evrsing emanda datat,ut waot necearily bound to tat. >> itwas n gurane ven he volatityf the mark tt if we eliminate t protn that we a havhekind of pa onicethatw wuld exec tat eprices will cearily ler wean guaraee t? >> yes, indditntoearlier, the largest finingapacity wi mntain impo o oi

because ao put pdus on the mke that iwhat indusy es re. iioujut addyo questio mo othoil we nsume the ited stateisn e anportatio secorit seems mrather tn maiaing the ban rude oil expr,e wod be mh seto have an cerar pgrams to ue our naral gas eserveto a eater deee trnsportation. there ha been numeus studies. wld be long-tmeffort bu i wouldpce e iel fue inhe 1whe trksso pplsath ulbeanoher 8 billon barrels a dy i we can se nargas hnr tnsportation onthe reat kend mr ris, oast adis anotrmaj ace ca ve and coans experintg thing ld raro comive soi weuldreduthe use o oil ndtransport byelyng on

vast ntul ga that wolde arore prdepoli thn contui t bn on cre oi exrt >>f cod st aone nae. ife go bk andlott isry of ca erhi we didifu wntoake one less o of that, wenee pocies which are rost ainst ucertant. every mee try to gues or thk now wt he fuure los ike coanr ear por t cap to r or we e into banheuse ofatal s and we plnt youkno we real have a hard meetnghis rit. weon relynow what the futureooks ke. wt e doo iswedo ch tr enweave picies alloa lot of themarkeplace anindidus austo chgi circumstance ce we put meinin pla heapitol hlit's really hard