ld she could do this? ultimately there was no support from anyone in academics at ohio state. >> guest: gene smith is the person she referred to a recent gymnastics, is athletes director at ohio state. these are the kind of things were talking earlier in the show with regard to clustering in majors and athletes being funneled into certain major programs. athletes are told look, you can be pre-med if you want but there's a lot of really hard courses in pre-med and if you don't get a certain grade point average you will risk or eligibility because if you don't do well in the classes that are really hard to deal with, even without playing sports that if you do well enough in those classes in your not be able to play. athletes then, a lot of times athletes will say, okay maybe that's not such a great idea. some athletes persevere and get it done. there are plenty of football

players who become doctors and there are lots of people who go on to law school who were gymnasts. these are decisions that the student had to make. it's not easy. it's difficult, again from it gets into the whole issue of time commitment, and if it's a tough balancing act, but whether or not the degree to which athletes are supported in their academic choices again gets into, it's a school by school situation but some athletes experience proved to be really fulfilling. others not so much. there some question whether call it was talk about, those experiences are out there and they're real and those things happen. they're not just happen in football and men's basketball. they happen in gymnastics, swimming track athletes come it happens across the board. >> host: mike from pennsylvania. the morning, go ahead. >> caller: okay. earlier you had a call from

another penn state alumni and abroad of the fairness issue of what happened to penn state. you didn't seem to have an opinion about the fairness issue, and what he was referring to was sandusky was a criminal who was tried, infected and sent to jail the ncaa punishes the president despite the present team, players coaches, students and alumni to an absolute nothing to do with what sandusky did. that is the fairness issue that everybody in pennsylvania is discussing. >> guest: the fairness issue that everybody in pennsylvania is discussing everybody who was associate with the university of southern california football program were discussed within the ncaa with you with reggie bush when it is programs but it's difficult to punish people for past deeds, and so you can't retroactively punish penn state

short of take away victories, and that's going to be a punishment that people don't really recognize. you take away victories and people say well they play the game, they won the game and in the general public's mind, that's the way those games were decided. so there's no question that the ncaa's enforcement structure creates a circumstance where athletes and schools in the present are being punished for deeds in the past. that's partially because it's so difficult for the ncaa to try to enforce these rules and enforce procedures that involve. they lack subpoena power. it's difficult for these cases to be adjudicated quickly. by the time they get found out about and then investigated and adjudicated you're dealing with something that occurred two years ago, three years ago four years ago. and howdy holds the school accountable for something that occurred there without punishing athletes had nothing to do with it and potentially coaches have

nothing to do with it. that's a difficult situation for the ncaa. the alternative is that there's no rules and we can do whatever we want, and that's not what the schools want house of representatives lecture from dave a student from omaha nebraska. good morning. >> caller: good morning. along the lines of timeline the ncaa would institute quotas religious and racial, along those lines. >> guest: i'm sorry. i'm not clear on your question call mike well i think with thailand we have to have female athletics quotas, you think they would ever instituted a quota system for religious or racial diversity on campuses transferred i don't think the ncaa would have anything to do with it. title ix is a federal law, and that's where that comes from. that's not from the ncaa. that was passed by congress. i think the ncaa has made some effort to try to bring diversity in terms of its governance

panels that are involved in rules making to try to have women involved to try to minorities involved, to try to balance those things out. but having that sort of quotas or having that legislated in terms of athletes involvement i think it's not going to have an. >> host: one more call for a just and we'll hear from chris in grant park illinois. hi. >> caller: good morning. i would like to know student athletes who are injured and they cannot continue to play you know through the rest of the four years do they lose the scholarships, or let's say they are injured to the point where it affects their performance? do those students lose their scholarships? >> guest: under the current system it is possible for that to happen. at the moment scholarships at many schools are renewable

annually. in theory that's not supposed to happen but you're not supposed to luger scholarship for injury because you proved not to be quite as good a player as they had hoped when you are recruited, things like that. the fact of the matter is that kind of thing does occur. the ncaa is trying, and schools and conferences, are starting to institute our pledge to institute systems that will result in scholarship commitments in what are called headcount sports, what each athlete occupies an entire athletic scholarship football men's basketball, women's basketball volatile, a number of sports like that where that commitment is made for four years, as long as the athlete lives up to certain academic and behavioral rules. so that will be subjective and it will be interesting to see how these things are put into practice. whether or not those kinds of commitments for four year

colleges -- scholarships may not be there in sports such as soccer or baseball where schools are allowed to defy scholarships among individual athletes. you may of 24 athletes on the team sharing 12 scholarships. those they not be recognized entirely for four years as they go along. is also may remain renewable from year to year but that's something i think a lot of people don't understand is that scholarships at the present are not required to be for your commitments. they can be and are renewable annually house of representatives our guest rights of sports and is projects for sports for "usa today." he's steve berkowitz. they go more information about his information go to the u.s. in to a website. steve berkowitz, thanks. >> guest: thank you. >> join us tonight for booktv.

him >> the one at a 14th congress gavels in is tuesday at noon eastern. watch live coverage of the house

on c-span, and the senate live on c-span2, track the gop led congress and had to say as events unfold on the c-span networks. c-span radio and c-span.org. new congress, best access on c-span. >> next come a discussion of sexual assaults on college campus from "washington journal" earlier this month it runs just under one hour period. >> thank you for joining us. good morning. is my pleasure to be here. >> host: let's start with the statistic which gets us to the name of your group, one in four. your organization does second does report that one in four college women have survived rate or can direct in their lifetime. wanted for women in the military experienced rape or attempted rape during military service. in that college realm how did you determine the figure the actual figure, one in four? >> guest: there have been several studies over the last

few decades that i found that one in four of college women have survived either rape or attempted rape at some point in their lifetime. the first of those studies was done by woman named mary at the university of arizona in 1987 and she surveyed students on 32 different college campuses, about 5000 students were involved. and which look at the data from the women she found that one in four had experienced either rape or attempted rape since the 14th birthday. that study was rotated in the '90s by the u.s. centers for disease control and prevention and then finally the department of justice within the last decade published a study that was random sample of students on college campuses throughout the country. again finding that one in four college women have survived rate or attend a great and the point at some point in their lifetime. one of the things we need to realize about that statistic is that it doesn't say one in four

women are raped during college. which is one of the ways that sometimes is misconstrued. if you ask college women, have you ever express rape or attempted rape back in high school or later in college about one in four will respond yes. >> host: the natural question then would be, why is this happening? is it your sense that it's happening more frequently than in years past? >> guest: the data has been remarkably consistent since the '80s. any 80s is when the first nationwide study was done. so i think it's been unfortunately remarkably consistent but we would hope those numbers would go down. >> host: what are the causes? why is this happening? what are the factors involved? >> guest: well there are many. obviously, as one might guess the people who are perpetrating rape are primarily been about

90% of rates are perpetrated by men. but certainly not all men perpetrate rate. we need to make that distinction clear. so why do they do it? i can take some risk factors for men to perpetrate sexual violence there one is that they consume you excuse me, that they were binge drink two or three more times a week at the second risk factor, if they have appeared group around them who somehow support men's violence against women either through jokes or just cultural norms. if you combine binge drinking in the support from friends, and individual milk is 10 times more likely to commit sexual violence than other men. there are certainly many other risk factors for say with perpetration. lower empathy more impersonal relationships with women, believing that their controlled

or dominated by women and that's something that threatens them post i want to let viewers know that the lines will be broken up for this segment which took about 50 more minutes. the top line will be for students, 202-748-8000 is is a number. where the lines to the site for parents, 202-748-8001, educators 202-748-8002 and all others is 202-748-8003. professor, let's dig a little deeper into things. but let's start with one in four. what is your group trying to do about this issue? how much success to you think you are having? >> guest: what we tried to come and we been around as a

nonprofit since 1998, what we try to do is to get as many of our educational programs that have a very strong research base to them out into colleges and into the military. we believe that the way to responsibly prevent rape is to follow the data where it leads to.we are very much a data-driven organization. we have developed some educational workshops to provide to both colleges and the military that have been shown and published at that concert to review processes. in the case of our program for men, to lead to a 40% decline in sexual violence among high-risk men who see it, after both the programs for men and women, to lead to increase what's called bystander intervention. the willingness of someone to step in if they see a situation that could turn into a rape, and attempt to stop at. >> host: before we get to calls, professor, want to go

back to a piece of the series we did at the universities, the big ten earlier in the year where one of our host read to the ohio state of those, a letter from a female student written to newspapers about what she called and others called a rape culture on campus. want to show you and we can talk more. >> there was a letter to the editor on monday, first year student at ohio state university and she said, i've been a student at ohio state been a student at ohio state for six out of seven weeks and there have been four ordered sexual assaults. she goes on to say there is a rape culture and it must stop. i understand the desire to let loose andriy getaway, but just because you decide to get wasted, doesn't mean the rules all the sudden do not apply to you anymore. just because you're drunk and the girl you have been dancing with all night is john, that does not mean you get to have sex with her or vice versa. guest:

>> guest: that's a wonderful state and. i think it actually summarizes the education that we continually need to do. and also what's critical in this is again, is how we report out sexual assault on campus and in our surrounding areas. again this is a populated area. and i think she hit the issue right on the head. i couldn't say it better myself about the need for this particular kind of education. >> host: trento any reaction to what you're? >> guest: i think the woman who wrote the letter is surprised that there've been poor judgment for reporter rates in the first six or seven weeks of the academic year. and certainly any rate that is reported is a concern but one of my thoughts about that is there are statistics which show that

are many, many more rapes occurring at a campus like ohio state, for that matter most anywhere than just a few in the first few weeks. if you take a look at the most reliable nationwide data you have a rate of 5% of college women experiencing rape or attempted rape every academic year. so that would translate into let's say a campus of 10,000 students, 5000 of whom would be women, and if you take five or 10% of that figure that would be 250 women every year. that would be on the campus of 10,000 student at ohio state i believe is around 40 or 50000. i think one of the biggest issues that we have is helping women feel comfortable enough, and then for that matter experience sexual violence, helping survivors to feel comfortable enough speaking with administrators, speaking with police about what happened to

them so that we can begin to get a handle on holding perpetrators accountable far more than we are now. >> host: let's get your phone calls. robert welcome to the program. >> caller: thank you. good morning. i've a couple of issues. i have a son who is in a college, any fraternity i have a daughter that will be going to college next year. and i want both of them to be safe. i want our daughter to be said of course and sexual assault. i want our son to be free from any false accusations. i've noted quite intensely the rolling stone case, and i think that the journalistic standards that were displayed there and the fact that an allegation once made, it brushes the alleged individual with a statement it never goes away, whether or not it is justified or not.

what's your organization doing to address issues like, let's not make names of victims or alleged assaulters public until it is substantiated? >> guest: well there was certainly a lot in there. i think there's a societal belief that women are out there who simply get angry at a man into such a throw and accusations of rape against them to somehow get even. if you take a look at the data, that is really so unbelievably rare as to be almost not worth speaking about, although i think any topic of human behavior we can study. but if you take a look at the better data that we have, any kind of false reports is extremely rare. the estimates are well under

10%. that would be well under 10% of cases that i can reported to the police and then the police believe that is something that doesn't quite add up. that doesn't change the fact that maybe rape happened, maybe it didn't. there are also very very few men who are actually held accountable through can't this conduct process or through the courts for particular sexual assault that did not occur to one of the things that prosecutors will tell you is the one of the hardest cases for them to win is a sexual assault case against the perpetrator. the real bigger issue here i think is that there are so many women out there who either won't report because i know of the attitude that was displayed by the caller or they're hesitant to talk to the police about something that happened to them or to the campus administered because they don't think they will believe. what is wanted for trying to do? we're trying to educate the

public and people on college have a military that false reports are extremely rare and rapes that do happen are extremely common. we need to focus our energy on preventing rapes from happening in the first place. >> host: following up on what you just said nick anderson wrote recently in the "washington post" about colleges. here's the story. colleges often reluctant to expel for sexual violence with university bridging a prime example. a growing number of students report sexual violence. those who seek justice to enjoy challenges are linked even when allegations are upheld, school officials are still reluctant to impose the harshest punishment on these attackers, and that's expulsion. what do you make of that headline? >> guest: i have a number of thoughts on that. about 10, 15 years ago i was an assistant dean of students at uva so i'm quite familiar with the culture.

and i did find was on the administrative side of things, now i'm a faculty member but what is on the administrative side of things, a lot of my colleagues were very hesitant to not only have a case against a perpetrator, but moreover to expel a student for sexual violence even though they would quickly expel students for cheating on an exam. i think we need a cultural change among university administrators to realize that the worst thing a college can do to stood is to say, you have 4500 of the choices of where to go to college, but this isn't going to be one of them. in the grand scheme of things that is not a huge consequence. certainly anything less than that for a crime of rape is unconscionable. i think we need to do a better job educating university administrators about the trauma that's involved in rape about how to decipher to cases that

come before them ma and what are some appropriate penalties. and hopefully work hand-in-hand with local police so that there's a concurrent process of adjudication to the criminal court system. >> host: let's hear from george in orlando. good morning. >> caller: good morning. can you hear me? >> host: yes. go ahead. >> caller: hello? >> host: you can hear you just fine. can you hear us? comics were. i'm turning my intercom off. thanks for taking my call. i've always heard a lot of reasons for rape. and one of the ones i've always maintained, i've been around a long time is that some part of it is sex but a lot of the educators say it's always about power and control. i was wondering, do you ever come has anything ever been studied to find just how much of it is about sex?

if it's about sex who is the bigger perpetrator of it ranking member cruz --? >> guest: is read more about sex come is about power it's about control? i didn't pay attention about his perspective on we talking about? if you're thinking about the perspective of a survivor a woman who was raped by a man her perspective on this is it very much about power and control, the perpetrator took control of my body when i didn't want him to. to our some men who commit violence against women who essentially have decided the beginning of the evening i'm going to sex with a woman. and whether i get it consensual or not i'm going to proceed. and so if you think about it it's a crime that involves control and power over a woman

that involve sexual behavior. so a little bit of a both and in the case but a think we can't just say rape is about sex. it is a violent crime where one person decides to take control over another person's body. >> host: chris in alabama writes, as long as there are unsupervised college kids combined with alcohol, you will have sexual assault. is a call from michael as well from ithaca, new york, is my. good morning, michael. >> caller: good morning. i welcome c-span coverage on this. i also want to thank everyone behind the cameras that put on c-span everyday, especially during the holidays. >> host: absolutely, thank you. >> caller: john foubert, you bring a great wealth of expense and appreciate that. my name is pastor michael vincent. you can go to my website one world life systems i have even

protested outside of former pope benedict window. having left corner university which dealt with the subject of a front-page story in november following up the president's rollout of the public service announcement this year and also measures that are been taken up here as well as being looked at and other ivy league schools and other schools like the woman down in columbia university. what i would like everyone to start realizing is, it had been working on over 20 years, is that we need to do with our constitutional congenital defects. africans were not looked as citizens until the 13th ma 14th and 15th amendments. women weren't looked at as visible until 1920. i am disabled from being raped in the new york seminary after

leaving cornell and live with post-traumatic stress but i'm not a survivor. i call myself a violated reviver. everyday i have to live with this. where i think we need to focus, ma we need to focus not with the college educators per se, we need to focus that we have a first amendment and everyone is free to practice their faith as they choose. my minister is identical. i facilitate project. what we need to do is teach our children at an early age everything that only about sex but about human rights. >> host: we will take a look at the website that the guest just talked about, one world life systems. go ahead professor. >> guest: well, i think there any number of issues that were brought up in the caller's comments. i think that we should just limit ourselves to one population when we're talking about educating people about

sexual violence. we need to educate college students people in the military, the general public who comprise our jury pool, and definitely i would agree we need to educate our children. i have two small children right now. one of whom is a four year old boy and one of the ways i am beginning to educate him right now is we will often play tickle games or whichever and if i'm tickling him and he says that he stopped, daddy stop i will stop immediately and say that's right but if someone says stop, if they're doing something to your body and you say stop they are supposed to stop right away. it's a wonderful lesson i learned from my mentor in graduate school. i think there are lots of ways we can educate people of all ages, and certainly i have deep sympathy for the callers experience and i'm glad he is willing to share it here on television. >> host: we just talked about some colleges that might be reluctant to expel students on

sexual violence. what is the flipside of all this? we have a headline from the recent "huffington post" story about university of iowa making it clear that rapists will be removed from campus. who is doing this well in terms of preventing and acting on sexual assault when they happen? >> guest: well, i think it's a good step to say if you are found responsible for rape through a process that involves standard due process come in the context of a college or university, that the penalty for rape is expulsion. and i think that point does need to be made up front and i think colleges and universities should do the. from a prevention standpoint there are two universities i would highlight. one is the university of pennsylvania. my sense is they're doing a very good job of preventing rape on the campus. we have a chapter of our one in four organization there that's

always been very strong. and the other one which may come as a surprise to some people is the united states naval academy. they have done a great job of designing multi-tiered educational programs throughout the midshipmen experience there. it's not just well let's do one educational workshop and call it done. but let's do for a year that builds on each other every year that there at the academy. those are a couple places i would highlight. >> host: before we go back to calls, want to talk more about the big ten. and blumenherst is a couple of months ago the president of indiana university came on and talk about what they've been doing this year to respond to sexual violence. is a look. >> there is nothing more important to us as university and the welfare of our students. we are deeply concerned about the welfare of all of our students.

earlier this year we announced a student welfare initiative which is a comprehensive approach to problems of sexual violence. .. you have raised across the institution. that is administrative at the very highest level of the institution. two vice president cochair and executive council that is actually responsible to the comprehensive evaluation of -- improvement of these policies in the area. one of the things we are most proud of on this campus, the campus of indiana university is the fact that our students are not just sitting around waiting for the administration to do more to address these issues. . . .

which is a student led initiative that is completely initiated by the students which is focused on students helping students by standard as well and this is something that i have nothing but praise for. >> professor come on the bystander awareness any thoughts? >> guest: i think the research has shown that if we can convince students to intervene when they see something that might occur for example a party a woman walking down the hall with a man it looks like they are headed into a private room that's the time that other students need to get up and make sure that the woman gets to a safe place and the man stays away from her. so that is part of it and it's also certainly helpful when the students are embracing that

message and educating each other about it. one of the things we found in one in for four is students first need to understand what the experience might feel like from a deeply empathetic point of view before they will be more intravenous bystanders. we have been doing these and we found that when you combine a very strong component with bystander intervention that's when we get the behavior change. >> host: a parent on the line. what is your first name? are you there? >> caller: actually i'm from takoma park maryland. >> host: thank you for calling. >> caller: yes. if the guests could give me a historic perspective in the 50s, 60s and 70s we could put the discussion into the

perspective and i will take my answer off the air. guess what there's not as much written about what happened with rape on campus prior to the 1980s. that's when the issue of the rape on campus and the term date rape and those things begin to be used. before that. co. of time, what actually happened as there would be different euphemisms used for things like he took advantage of me we had a bad debate, i had a bad experience. but there wasn't really even the language at the time for us to discuss acquaintance rape. we know little about what happened prior to the 1980s when it comes to rape on college campuses because the data by and large just weren't there.

>> host: >> guest: i think you answered my generation. i was born in 1925 and went through college, high school and college and i do not recall the amount of this kind of activity going on. and even now today. i just wonder do they have any kind of information come is there a cultural change in america or what? i guess that's my question. >> host: have attitudes change or are they being talked about more and if they have changed, what causes change? >> guest: this attitude change associated with different educational approaches. so if someone has been educated more about sexual violence in a

way that is not constant width of the research, some of those attitudes are likely to change, but most of the public hasn't had a good strong research base about sexual violence. now, as did rape occur in the 20s and 30s of course it did come absolutely. and of course it isn't over what different than it is now. it's just there was even more residents to report what happened, and less likelihood of that a perpetrator would be held accountable. now, today, perpetrator accountability accountability is still in their assembly low and we need to do a better job on that. but we can only really confidently discuss that which we have good data about. >> host: where is the u.s. congress on this matter, professor? >> guest: there's a couple senators who i think have been very has been very helpful kirsten gillibrand and claire mccaskill has begun and also senator blumenthal have begin to

push colleges to address the issue of sexual violence to a much greater degree. the entire congress passed the most recent amendments to the violence against women act and often referred to as the campus safe act. one of the reasons we were talking about it is that we have a large group of survivors nationwide. some of that can be a little bit more data-driven but then again on the professor that's how i think. >> host:

>> guest: i would like to put through the perspective a lot of people are not considering and by no means do i wish to blame the victim. these are children. okay. but a lot of times fashions these days are so greatly exposing every possible portion of a woman's body and these young girls are just going to the school and picking up the merchandise that everyone seems to be wearing. but i can tell you if we can get the fashion merchandisers to begin pushing long flowing skirts and lovely blouses that do not claim to the press to show cleavage these girls would begin to be looked at differently by the young boys around them and they would begin to think differently about themselves. and i don't think it would solve

all the problems it might help. >> guest: i look for how they are going to blame the victim, and i think that is not the intent of the caller but partly the effect is a certainly there are so many survivors out there that will second-guess every decision that they make thinking that they were somehow responsible for what happened at the fact is and they are going to force their will on a woman so i think that's where we need to put a lot of our efforts. so i don't think that we will have much success convincing the fashion industry to do much of

anything unless they want to and they think that something will so. i will take her point to a deeper level though and say that the pornography industry is in my opinion based on the research providing man with a recipe for rape and women with messages that they should enjoy it so i think that may be going to a deeper level of the woman's comments talking about addressing the pornography industry where there is rampant violence against women that's something that we really need to address and i do believe that it could have an impact. >> host: the guest in oklahoma city if you are looking to find out more about what is going on in congress here is more details on the campus accountability safety act we touched on a couple of minutes ago part of what was required to colleges to conduct an annual anonymous

survey which the students are asked about their experiences for the sexual assault on campus would require them to vote online to the parents for the parents of high school students would make an informed choice according to the decision and would toughen the sanctions against the colleges that fail to report sexual assault crimes and raising penalties from $35,000 per violation to 150,000. also the funds to up to 1% of the operating budget that they fail to investigate the reports on campuses. back from usa today. and back to twitter to the guest can you explain why some universities to stop talking victims if they decide to report a rape to the police does that happen? >> guest: guess it does. take a step back. usually that is often an approach on college campuses is that they will provide a survivor that comes forward with

several different options that could be hearing the case internally going externally to the criminal court system or whatever. there are some universities do believe if it goes to the trouble court if they need to wait until they make a determination from my perspective the best advice i've gotten that is a pretty ill advised way of handling the case because if you have a rape that occurs in the residential communities that might have happened if it is in a fraternity house or residence hall the criminal court system takes a long time to hear the cases and you can divide the due process in the university environment where you can hear the case within 60 to 90 days and have an outcome. we have to remember we talked about the campuses and there is also a title ix and the universities need to provide an environment that's free of the hostile work environment and hostile educational environment

for students on college campuses. and certainly the cases of rape raised the hostile environment standard and beat that. so i think if the university is not hearing the case but because it is going through the courts making a mistake. [inaudible] >> host: can you hear us okay? i think we might have lost bill. if you want to try to get back and we will try to put you through as soon as we can. nebraska is on the air in the meantime. are you there? >> guest: thank you. i'm calling in response to the lady that called from colorado that suggested that the way that women dress causes the problem. and i would like to cite a tribe in south america. this is a very peaceful tribe

and they wear absolutely no clothing except a band of around their waist and they have no rape at all. it's a cultural it is a cultural element in my opinion in our country. that's my comment. >> jim calling out from fort knox. >> guest: i would like to ask why the numbers are so different from the study from 1995 to 2013 where it says 95% of the time to read and sexual assault rate of 45.0 to 7.2 per 1,000 persons versus the one in four that your guest quote. >> guest: there are different ways of measuring the college campuses where the society in

general. and the statistics that i quote are based on what i believe to be the most methodologically sound studies that involve random samples of college students on multiple campuses and that sort of thing. the most recent study data come from the department of justice. there's another branch in the department of justice publishes the report based on the methods that have come to be questioned over the last couple of decades particularly because one of the methods is commonly used in the studies is they will call the home line and talk to whoever is on the phone and say say has anyone in your house experienced fact armed robbery rape those sort of things. and if the person on the phone doesn't know that someone else in that house has experienced rape because they haven't shared that with them that's not going to come up in their data set and so i think that we need to ask people directly what is

happening to them. the other thing is so many of these have been on college campuses. if you are calling a home line and a residential community, college students are often away at college. so they are not going to be included in much of the data. so we need to look at who is surveyed, with the questions are, but the point of the study is and i think the most responsible efforts are informed by nationwide samples and looking at the prevalence in that way. >> host: if you are interested in reading more about the numbers of glenn and the fact checker piece today in the "washington post" that is on a ford has been right up in the headline. where does it get its statistics and how does the white house go about finding its own information out there? they talk about one in five. what do you make of the white house effort in this area the

white house justice and the administration? >> guest: i'm glad that at the very highest levels of government there's concern about sexual violence. i think though that sometimes when you have elected public officials who are trying to address a problem that is very deep-rooted cultural and that there are a lot of differing data sources out there and you may have people writing the reports with 22 23 working for the staff of someone in the white house they may not have the sophistication to determine the validity of one study or another. but the one inside statistics that are often quoted isn't one that i often quote. it comes from the centers for disease control and prevention. and in my opinion, rape isn't a disease, and i question whether the centers for disease control are even able to get a handle on people -- ebola, let alone rape.

we need to look at the studies done by scholars and i do think that it's helpful that the white house is pushing this agenda and putting the weight of the white house behind it. i just wish that in some cases they have a little bit better advice on the data that they could be quoting. >> host: moving to dalton ohio. good morning to you. >> caller: [inaudible] following the show this morning. i heard you talk about the rape on college campuses. but some are conspiring to note this idea. one of them of course is this of culture. i don't know if you talked about that or not. another is just general immorality and speech codes on college campuses. it's political correctness. >> host: as a parent when you

hear the term hookup culture what do you hear? >> caller: intends to eating i guess -- intense dating i guess. guys seem to be in control and i don't know if it is a pro- image problem or what but they have today that is easily coerced into the foolishness and they have no moral base. same with men. i'm not making a distinction. >> host: we've been talking about the university's approach to all. what is the university doing?

i think we lost him. let's go back. >> caller: they have to get away from the speech codes and the political correctness i think and they are so out of touch with traditional values. i'm not sure where that phrase is. but anyway it says free fornication. >> host: any reaction to what you heard? >> guest: i guess i have a few reactions. the parts that i would have some agreement with is that rape absolutely is a moral issue. and when a man makes a decision to rape a woman, that is a morally deficient position.

and there are any number of worldviews that i think could be in agreement with that. i think that there also is what's called a hookup culture on the college campuses. and i think that essentially shared physical activity between two or more individuals of a sexual nature is the reason that we have rape on campus. i wouldn't say that it's necessarily the reason we have refined campus. although in the context of the consensual encounter sometimes that turns into something that is not consensual. it's waiting for there are certainly aspects of the hookup culture in the united states and worldwide that could be addressed that would help us to decrease the prevalence of rape. so i would leave it there.

>> host: talking about the crimes and osu is in an urban settings ... into that and talk to the guest. >> this is a critical issue on college campuses. the college campuses. and i for 1 a.m. pleased that this is in the headlines. here in the ohio state, we spend a lot of time trying to educate our students about sexual assault and i would say violent crimes in general for a good reason. ohio state is in an urban setting. there are approximately 1.8 million people that live in the greater columbus area.

we have a special duty and we are educating students about violence and particularly sexual violence. and so, we've spent time developing programs and making sure that we are doing a good job in this particular area. and the office of civil rights just released its report about ohio state for what it's doing. we are moving forward with some criticisms in that report including streamlining and simplifying the instructions and really making sure that the access is all that we can produce information because it is a critical issue. >> host: and to the guest. anything you want to respond to?

>> guest: i find it odd that he kept saying the word word urban and equal weighting that with violent crime. and certainly there is a violent crime in some areas but we are talking with the subject of rape. and rape on college campuses have been overwhelmingly about students that know each other wherever that college campuses located. so we also made a brief mention to them being applauded by i believe the office of civil rights in the u.s. department of education. to get attention from the office of civil rights and the department of education, usually something has gone wrong. so they would issue the report and and say here are things the university is doing well and something that they are not doing well that they need to change it if they don't have a could lose federal funding. i do not necessarily think that sounded like something to trumpet to me. the culture among the students

and to figure out how to adapt the different prevention programs to that campus to help address it and just as important for the perpetrators are held accountable and to expel them if they have committed rape. >> host: we the student on the line from chicago. welcome to the program. >> guest: if you like the students are contributing. you are talking about the subject in the sense of the victims and doing something that they didn't want to do. in my experience i and a fraternity member and i'm a single guy. but i found a lot of times is people literally go out and i'm not blaming any victims but they go out for a fun time and try -- like the woman said they were provocative clothing and a lot of times they are looking to have sex and they have alcohol.

that's where we go on a lot of dates bars. the next morning do do they regret it do they not i don't know. i'm just saying a lot of times we focus on the few minority of guys that come out and target women specifically and independent on consensual sex. >> host: let me jump in. what school are you attending? are you still there? what school are you at? >> guest: >> caller: double university. >> host: all that being said you described a scenario when you are going out. what is your role in that situation? >> caller: he approaches a woman and is trying to get her in his bed. i don't think that i'm forcing anyone or coercing them in an unlawful way that it's kind of

part of the whole scene. you come out as that guy that they want to sleep with and -- >> host: has your school put out any information of substance that you've been able to see that has helped to guide folks in this area? >> guest: we had someone on campus, a basketball player being called out for rape. the university does what they can just like every university out of there, but i don't think that that is really the problem. you have to teach your daughters why is it just the university's problem? >> host: professor, reaction? >> guest: i have several reactions. one is of course i will point back to the data if you look at the fraternity meant they are three times more likely to commit sexual violence than are

other men on the college campus. part of that is they tend to be the cultures where some of them tend to be in the cultures they tend to have support from their peers to act in ways that are violent towards women or they take advantage of them and i think that you know the caller mentioned the possibility of a woman being drug. the number one date rape drug in the united united states as i'll call. and one of the things that we know about perpetrators for studying them for many many years is that they tend to use alcohol to lower a woman's defenses. so that she is unable to physically resist the advances of a man. and so i think that that caller and certainly many others need to be very careful about their own behavior if they are around women that they wish to have imminent contact with and if that person is mentally incapacitated or physically helpless based on the effect of

alcohol, they need to stay away from that woman if they decide they want to do something at the time when both are sober within their own moral framework, that's certainly their decision to make. and certainly you know, i don't think that it is a great position to consume a lot of alcohol whether you are a man or a woman as to be around a lot of people that you don't necessarily know well where bad things can happen. but the sad thing though is that when women experience rated as often at the hands of someone that they do know. and so i think that the caller needs to take a look at his own behavior come at the behavior of his friends. why is it for example that he feels like he needs to go out and have a lot of sex with a lot of women all the time? and in what way does that put him at risk. and in what ways does this really turn out for the? so i would just encourage looking at a whole lot of those issues. >> host: here from torii in winchester ohio.

>> caller: yes, what about the parent that had the conversation with your father which my father father when they turned around and thought my god she's bought my god she's growing up and had to have a conversation even though my mom had. it's your body and no one can take it unless you give it to them. >> host: the role of parents. do those conversations make a difference do you think? >> guest: i don't think we have the data on it i do think that parents need to talk to their children, both boys and girls don't help to establish physical boundaries and how to say no how to communicate and i think all of those can be very helpful. i'm all for education at all levels and i do think that we have a missed opportunity in many cases of parents who don't talk to their children about sexual behavior or where our families believe that that's

okay and it can be in the context of marriage and it can be in other contexts that people have of their worldviews. >> host: john is a student. hello there. >> caller: usually when something happens i don't just want to see that. i want the police involved because the crime, someone has to investigate what happened. sometimes we see a lot of cover-up. we need the girls to be safe, no matter where they are.

we need better help on how the women tend to speak after the experience and there's different parts of an experience that will appear in their memory down the line and some things they say they seem to conflict in their story that doesn't mean that they are lying. that often means that they are under the influence. serious trauma. to deal with rape on the campuses through prevention and

policy. someone responsible for raping are no longer part of that the campus. >> host: joining from oklahoma city and the national president of the group called up one in four. he's also the professor of higher education and student affairs at oklahoma state university. thanks for your time. the statistics take that from the viewers and we appreciate it. >> guest: thank you >> guest: thank you for the opportunity.

next-day discussion about the state of higher education in the u.s.. from an earlier edition of the washington journal. this runs one hour and ten minutes. >> host: let's get into what is behind the college education. what are the key drivers of the college cost. is that faculty come is committees that infrastructure committee's administrative costs? estacado high here it is a very people driven operation. and a lot of the industries are also people driven but it's a people driven industry with a lot of well-trained and in some cases highly compensated people relative to the overall economy.

so there are a lot of people that work in these colleges. there are also small cities. they have billing and maintenance and things like that to pay for and that also adds to the cost. >> host: here is a chart showing it in comparison to overall inflation rate. the black line on the bottom since 1985 and here is the red line going all the way up to the cost of a college education. explain. >> guest: the factors that go into the inflation are important. they are good and services and not just so much people. actually, higher ed has been criticized that they had their own inflation index. they called it the higher inflation which they used to calculate. it is a self influential index

and that's why they use one of their own that takes into account kind of costs that go into a higher income personnel. in fairness to the higher education there is a lot of reasons to be critical but in fairness to the cost of the professionals that work in higher education, the salaries and the cost for the service goes up about the same rate as the cost for dental care into some of the other highly paid professions. >> host: so it's not like they have exploded in the last couple of years for those that work in colleges? >> guest: no end for faculty members particularly if you take the inflation into account, it remains pretty flexible the last few years relative to the way that it's been 20 years earlier terry >> host: we are talking about the cost of college education. want to get your thoughts. we are splitting the phones up differently. 7081 from educators to

027-48-0002 and all others 748-8003. this segment from the road trip around the country on the big ten college tour. one of them was ohio state. he talked about the affordability issue and here is a bit about what he had to say in that interview. >> if you asked me what is the single most issue that keeps me awake at night as is this issue of affordability. it is no secret the last couple of decades have risen faster than the cost of everything else including the cost of tuition. so come at ohio state here we are taking this issue very

seriously in the sense that we want to make sure that our education remains affordable from the students that want to come here. so a few things we've done if i just look back at the last seven or six years if i use that window the tuition increase that will be under 2% in period of time during the seven-year window if we looked at just another year out we've had a 0% increase in tuition in four out of the seven years and this is an attempt to keep the costs at least where they are at. the way that the costs have risen within the all kinds of things from the requirements now that we have in the regulations

to providing amenities for students nowadays. and so also to of course build a strong academic programs. >> host: that was the provost at ohio state talking about what is happening on the campus to control the cost. is that unusual and what is happening around the country? >> guest: he's described as a national phenomenon. there are colleges that would say that the costs are going up in part to deal with regulations they responded to the regulations from age determination to the unrelated business income tax expenses. the regulations based on the inquiry act which the colleges

need to comply with about the campus crime and regulations on the eligibility of athletics and regulations in their disabilities. all of that is true but at the same time, they've also been increasing out of their own expenses on the aspects like marketing and communications. as an alumni and reporter we get the publications of time at all kind of colleges to produce their own sort of alumni magazines for their own schools that healthcare research and progress in different programs. >> host: do the schools have to do this in the place that we could see some cost cutting? >> guest: there is a competition for students and a particular kind of students particularly when the students that can afford to pay the most for the college and a lot of the reason they are going up particularly at the private colleges is the cost of the financial aid they don't have a endowment to fund the financial aid is basically funded out of

the revenue and so in some cases robbing peter to pay paul. some of the money that is coming in is going out in the form of scholarships and so do more to the college can attract the kind of students can afford to pay more of the tuition. that's the kind they are looking for. >> host: is that looking for the universities. she's a senior writer gary and also the author of the book american higher education in crisis. but everyone needs to know that came out this past fall. she's here to answer your questions and take your comments. parents can educators and all others. winds on the screen and we will start with that in brooksville pennsylvania. good morning. >> guest: when i went to college we had the dorm and now

they have to speak and universities the speed can't universities and their astronomical by the time you are done paying for the housing and the allotted for food and at the cost of housing and the allotment as much as it does for the cost of the education. i don't know how a kid couldn't afford to go through a university for the cost of a private school. by the time you're done you are done without the kids are so far in debt they can't even get through the university going through a private school. >> guest: the cost of dormitories, although now they are called residence halls and they are nicer than when i went to school. >> host: where did you go to school? >> guest: colby university. i was in one of the worst dorms. they hadn't gone through and

upgraded and it's true that students expectations are higher these days. i can't imagine too many that would be happy about living there and so people blame the college is a lot and some of them are quite lavish and on the other hand there are not that many that would want to go to the dorms but the gentleman talks about. >> host: are they outpacing tuition increases at the universities around the country? >> guest: in some cases they are. that is a harder member to crack because they don't attract the same as tuition numbers. but the issue on room and board is even if you were not going to college, you would have to live somewhere and eat and to some degree it is unfair to penalize them for some of the costs. but i imagine in many cases they could pay for it more cheaply. i think that 14 or $15,000 average. >> host: we are talking about the cost of college education specifically with a question for

the viewers in the segment and the segment you think that it's worth it. you can answer that were called with your questions or comments. minneapolis minnesota. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i think what we need to do is change the whole format. i don't know why colleges for years. why not make the last two years a career focus so that the 70% of the high school kids that are not going to college can actually get out of high school with a career and had 11th and 12th grade reading so that kids can have two years of low tech if they wanted so they can get out and be in the apprenticeship and then, you know, my big thing is i saw a statistic yesterday that said that we have to catch

these kids before they get out of high school. only 30% or 40% of the kids are going to college and i think that the cost of college also has to do with the fact that the federal government they need to pay for college but the more the government is willing to pay for the more the rate is going to go up as long as the federal government has paid for it they can get what they want. they can get as much money into the system as they want as long as the federal government pays for it. but i think the college doesn't need to be four years. my first year was general education. silly thing. i had to take a swimming class. i took a piano class because it was a requirement in the first two years. >> host: thanks for the call. shortening the length of the college career at the university

talked about iowa's three year degree program on the washington journal. i want to play a bit from that interview. >> let me say a few words about that. one of the things that we have been focused on for the last seven years that i've been here in the student success and affordability clearly this is something that a high priority that's a high priority for me. i was a first generation college student first-ever. it was a stretch for us to pay for college. so i had a great deal of sympathy for the students that are struggling and looking for ways to attend college that don't cost them everything they have. so come in terms of trying to make college affordable, we know that there that there's a number of ways we can do things and certainly a three year degree it isn't ready for every student for the highly motivated students. it will be for students that are able to go to school year-round because it will include summer school, and we have what we call

the summer tuition grants program that essentially will allow the students in the three-year program to attend summer school for free. this will hasten their progress towards their degree we hope obviously to complete in three years or to perhaps go on to graduate and professional school. we have a lot of great graduate programs here that we encourage students to consider. >> host: in the length of the college stay? >> guest: there's a lot of movement. it is one of about two or three dozen campuses that are making progress in this way. a lot of high schools are also offering college. the program is growing across the country. it's interesting about iowa. for one thing, the students get to come back and live on the campus and that addresses one of the criticisms of the college in that they don't use their

facilities but five days a week or all year round. and in this program it gets the students to come back and take advantage and use the facilities and by the way pay room and board for the college at the same time. the one trouble with these programs where they try to cram a lot more college mostly by just adding more summers is the low income students it's harder for them to take advantage of it because the federal government has the money-saving effort in the past year eliminated the sommerfeld grants. those students can't really go for three semesters in a row if they need that kind of financial aid. >> host: the other thing i want to pick up on that topic is something the caller brought up to the government is making it easier to get student loans and makes it easier for colleges to charge more for tuition. >> host: it is a theory and even has the name the secretary of education bill bennett is one of the people who sort of articulated this out loud and they call it it a bad hypothesis.

but it's a little harder to prove. certainly there is what they call the correlation does not necessarily causation. it's definitely gone up as the financial aid and it is a factor but you can't say that it's the only thing that drives the cost because there are these other things that actually contribute. they like to add a lot of programs and to do things and i think that they would do that with or without the sort of largess of the federal government. >> host: we would like the viewer reaction in the final hour of the washington journal today as we talk about the cost of a college education with the chronicle of higher education. hillary is waiting in cartersville georgia. good morning. >> caller: high. good morning. in terms of financial aid and endowment with graduate students funded all the way through community college and the employer degree on to college graduate school i don't feel

endowment are adequately reinvested and i do not see robbing peter to pay paul. you see a lot of students with the ability to get a better preparatory education and get the financial aid up front and the students that are not necessarily that wealthy or from a high income family still struggling and paying completely on their own. my university where i'm doing my graduate degree, we have a lack of the professors and they will get a billion dollar billion-dollar endowment. so, you know it seems to be a little bit shaky in that sense. it's not necessarily true across the board. thank you. >> host: >> guest: kudos for hillary, that is quite an accomplished it. the argument that she was making about some students would seem to not need the financial aid are getting it and goes back to the point that i was making earlier. there are a lot of college is particularly at the undergraduate level that will use a little bit to track

students. in effect it's a little bit of a loss leader. you offer somebody a scholarship of what they call the presidential scholarship or the award of a few thousand dollars that encourages the student to come and then that students will pay the rest of the tuition themselves and in the end it is kind of the way the college use it. there's a lot of criticism of this kind of financial aid approach because they say that it's sort of awarding money to the students that need it the least. >> host: so compare how prevalent it is to the need-based financial aid. how big -- >> guest: the need-based age is the bigger piece of pie but i think it is something like i can't recall the number but ten or 20%. but that is the money at the margin that makes a difference for a lot of students and where they decided to go to school and it also makes a difference in some cases for the college the colleges and whether they can get the students. but they are spending a lot of money on this financial aid right now, and in some cases they are spending as much,

taking as much as 45% of the revenue that come into the tuition and other sources and putting it back out as financial aid and that isn't a very sustainable business model. >> host: randy is waiting on the line. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i have a few points to make. i am also from the iowa and i'm the youngest of six. in the year that i went in the tuition was around 30,000 when i left it was upwards towards 40 45 and now it is closer to $50,000. that is is a lot of students speculated that have to deal with just competition and keeping up with the other liberal arts colleges in the area. as an educator, my question is why -- i know that there is a large disconnect between what the public schools are doing and what the colleges are doing.

and i don't feel like our high schools are preparing students for the university at the last comment i have to make is with the federal education loans such as the stafford loans. it's been my experience that students can take out huge amounts of money more than they actually need in order to pay for things like living expenses. and an 18-year-old who had the option of taking out $20000 instead of $10,000 might not have the perspective that they need to make a wise choice. >> host: where do you teach and what do you teach? >> caller: social studies and the title i school. and i'm seeing that the federal government the money and the assistance that is supposed to be coming to these high schools

are not helping. >> host: are there things that you do to better prepare your students for college life? >> guest: >> caller: i think the demands of college are different and they were 20 years ago. critical thinking, thinking in lots of different perspectives the communications committee and of course writing. but these are skills that a lot of people don't have when they graduate from high school. >> guest: that is a lot to swallow. it is quite interesting. i think to do a story about it and it is one of the wealthiest in the country, certainly the endowment to the student body and they made a conscious choice. i think that there was a feeling that there were students there were going to cornell but couldn't afford to pay more and they didn't feel like it was rice who make it harder for some

to attend the school while others couldn't afford to go. >> host: randy said 30,000 when he went in and 45,000 by the time that he graduated her time of the tuition. an unusually large increase? >> guest: that is probably the cost all in and i don't know what years he went there. but that is a little higher than i would have imagined it to be. but i know that there is a sort of philosophy in the financial aid about the high tuition models versus the low tuition model and people would argue the high tuition model is ultimately a more equitable one. let's talk about the preparation for students. i don't know, i should probably know more in maryland here where i live but i've been reporting in california they have a whole system into the high schools know about it. it's like a through g. criteria they need to be able to be accepted in a four year college.

they all know that they need to complete their requirements. so that is a problem in a lot of other parts of the country. it isn't always well outlined. >> host: one of the questions is do they think that college is worth it. given the job market, does it pay more to go to a trade school and and bought a four year college any more? >> guest: that is an individual choice. i think ultimately the statistics seem to show that we are all going to need some kind of postsecondary credential in the future to have a job. the demands of the economy are changing. when i graduated college years ago you didn't need a college degree for as any job is as you do now. the economy has changed right now. i think the statistics will show that graduates who have a ba over their lifetime are now lost more money than someone without. that's not to say that you

couldn't get them to have a good career out of college, but if you look at the sort of statistics and averages some kind beverages, some kind of postsecondary degree maybe not a four year college or associates degree or certificate in the field would be just as useful. >> host: some statistics have gone to college and that are in the labor force their 41% of young adults up from 26% in 1980 in terms of how much money you are going to make with a college degree here is a comparison. the chart in the times showing the average hourly pay of those who graduated in four year college program and compared to those with just some college but not a degree. you can see the chart there from 1975 up to 2013 in the rising average pay for those that went to college.

.. caller: good morning. just a comment __ i have a purchasing manager in a community college. it is very important __ the conversation had __ how to acclimate students coming to college. we tend to scare us students away from the opportunity when we start to talk about the cost. what is important to me is to start acclimate students in high school. we are at the main they quickly. obviously, the state of texas has a cost factor associated with students graduating. a cost is related to a and b,

instead of c and d. students to get them prepared, thus get them into a tear you -- a two-year environment and have them better able to be successful on the cost side for those private and major colleges? >> guest: high school preparation is the key. it's one of the biggest challenges in our country right now. the are a lot of high schools where the numbers of counselors to students is one counselor to three or 400 students, maybe 500. that's a giant problem. there's a lot of high schools where students can take the college prep classes. they can't get classes in the ninth grade to get them for 10th or 11th. it starts as early as that or middle school. john is right. that is a problem. we should talk about the cost because we did talk about this college prices and that price israel but there's two prices in higher education.

bears a sticker price and then there's the net price. the net price is what families and students are paying have to take into account the financial aid the federal pell grants state grants and to some cases some tax credits. i think it's important to note on average the actual net price at a public college in the country is about a third of what the sticker price is. same thing for the cost of a private college. >> host: how has that changed over the past 10 years or so? >> guest: both have gone. the net price used to probably be more affordable for families, particularly state colleges because the state tuitions have gone up a great deal over the last five or six years, graduate over 20 in the charts over the past five or six years because of cutbacks in state money. at the end of the day if you don't talk about the net price then you're not giving a realistic picture about the college costs problems are provided the rising prices our problem particularly for low income families and for people

who need to take out loans a net price is with the price we need to think about. >> host: let's talk to another student from bellevue michigan. good morning. >> caller: how you today? >> guest: good. >> caller: i wanted to know if you could address a couple of concerns i have. i'm a student at eastern michigan university. i have an associates degree and also i'm 55 and have a lot of work experience. so i'm really a nontraditional student. one of the questions is how does higher education address nontraditional students returning back to school? another concern is when i transferred from ohio to here in michigan to go to school, i had to retake a whole bunch of classes. it seems to me that each university have different curriculums. like for instance, my african-american literature class at i was under literature

i mean under social sciences. been when i came here to michigan it was under humanities. so had to still retake the class again. okay, so that's the second question, why are the schools from state to state some of foreign more cohesive curriculum classes that you can transfer from? >> host: and ask how much debt you are taking on to return to school? >> caller: i did 16,000 per year in student loans. and i also currently work temporary part-time. i lost my promise job. this is another concern why the costs for me is so high because this past semester i to take biology art psychology. at 55 i am on my career path. i have an associates in counting -- accounted a been doing accounting work my poker. this seems a waste of money for

me for nontraditional students at 55. >> host: let goldie blumenstyk jump in. >> guest: she's a nontraditional student who's become a much more traditional student in american higher education today. that's at least a third of the students are in the same situation. the problem you identify with the transfer of credits is a huge one. sometimes it happens even in state systems, not just when you cross from one state to another. it's a big challenge a big reason why colleges get criticized, they did seem as want to protect their own turf as trying to make it easier for students. to our organizations argue for a lot better of alignment but it's not always as easy as it sounds in some cases. within certain states there some places that have made really very smooth transitions between the community college and for your college. but when you go out of those rankings they have a fancy name

for it but when you're in an environment where they don't have one of those agreements, it tends to be harder and she's right. it becomes very discouraging. there's a lot of statistics to talk about the number of access crisper wasted credits, and this is a cost not just to the student but to some degree it's a cost to the taxpayer because some of these courses in public causes colleges even though there's less state money there's some going into. that's all good of a waste of state money. >> host: she said she's taken on about $16,000 a year in debt cost. a topic that i was president sally mason addressed on this program when we're on our big 10 tour, our fellow host peter slen asked about whether that much debt upwards of $50,000 of debt for some students is worth it. here's a bit of what she had to

say. >> is it worth a college education to come out of four years of college and a $50,000 of student debt? >> that's a lot of student debt. i've to say that our students let me begin with 40% of our students graduate with zero debt, which is something that i'm very pleased and proud about. then of the remaining students who do graduate with the debt on average their student debt might be in the 25 $26000 a year range. this is something we watch very carefully and we can actually monitor that amount of money and know how much of that debt is what we call true need-based debt versus how much of that debt might be related to perhaps lifestyle. and about half of that $26,000 is need-based debt. that's what the students and their families need to borrow to be able to attain that college education, that college degree. is it worth it? at that price it is aptly worth

a. i can remember graduating from college in 1972 with about $3000 of student debt which at that time was about the price of a car. an average car. again, our students are graduating with a debt level for the most part that is very manageable. >> host: would you agree that's happening for the most part for students of? >> guest: again, there's a question of the outliers and averages. the average student for some coming out of college with a four year degree is about 28400 right now. that does not count students at for-profit colleges. i think of that taxation was included that number was behind the is that too much but i don't know. i went online the other day to look at what is the price of a car. a ford fusion hybrid kind of loaded cost a lot more than

that. what's the cost and what's the value of a college education? i've seen statistics that talk will be about the valley of college and at what point does it have a cost benefit analysis. if you have a job nutty buddy does of course but if are lucky to have gotten a degree and get a job you can have it all paid off and come back to even buy your mid '30s if you started as an 18 year-old. >> host: goldie blumenstyk is with us for about the next half hour, 40 minutes or so to continue our discussion about the cost of a college education. if you want to follow her after the show on twitter you can do so at the chronicle for the chronicle higher education or at goldie standard, follow her person on twitter but she should take your questions and comments for about another 40 minutes or so. frederick is next. frederick good morning. >> caller: good morning. good morning to all of you.

i am a parent of a goddaughter and a son and they are very smart and i'm a vietnam veteran and i was a tennis will before i got drafted. when i came home i did finally get a degree. but i realize now that the little bit of education i did get did help me a lot, but it was a struggle because of financial reasons. but i suggest that all this campaign contributions that these big companies give these people running for office, that they would take a look at that and invest it into the low income communities for families that can't really afford to send the kids to school. a lot of this crime and would be a limited because they would be more educated. thank you.

>> host: frederick with his suggestion. any comments on frederick? >> guest: i think the statistics are pretty strong when you talk about education versus helping out people in communities. statistics are not a good but helping low income students go to college and graduate in our country. we are falling behind in that respect but it is still a lot of for social mobility of the twitter, but efforts to colleges make you keep your degrees and courses marketable? >> guest: they do a lot i think to do a lot of market research now, probably more so than they used to. probably more so when they add degrees took a lot of colleges are adding masters degrees in particular fields but i think they're seen as way to attract revenue and students and make themselves a little more relevant in the current economy. house of representatives kathleen is up next, clearwater, florida. good morning. >> caller: good morning.

i did want to comment about the woman that comment from the university, but she says, oh colleges the cost of a car. when you think about it the majority of for your degree students live on cancer many of the students don't own cars. so when they graduate with their degrees, many of them have to buy a car to get to their jobs. >> guest: that's a good point. >> caller: right, it is a good -- >> guest: although i am seeing success in the talk about a lot more young people moving to cities right now. not even getting the driver's license. that's not optimum in some parts of the country. >> host: do you have a follow-up? >> caller: the only other thing is i $30,000 worth of student loan debt from an associates degree with an associates degree in science.

and i took out some loans and i graduated 2012, and i still can't find a job with my degree. >> host: kathleen, do you think the sure that was a question, do you think it is worth it? >> caller: no. i'm 53. your other callers 55 i believe. >> host: kathleen in clearwater florida. >> guest: the real problem right now with the student loan default rates in the number of students having difficulty paying off their student loans whether not have a job or not. i guess that's if somewhat obvious. students who graduate and have jobs are able to pay off their loans. those who don't are the ones of making up the default rates. i should note community college is we get an associates degree probably costs about $4000 a year tuition so some of that borrowing that kathleen had to do with most likely for living expenses as well. >> host: the recent gallup

poll from this year, young adult psychology, top money problem paying tuition for college loans or exceeds other money matters as the top financial challenge young adults face in the u.s. more than one in five adults aged 18-29 mention college costs as a big financial problem their families argue with. will exceed the percentage of older americans identify this as the top issue. that's from earlier this year if you want to read more on a. theodore is up next, south carolina an educator. good morning. >> caller: good morning. thank you for having me. wonderful show. i wanted to just reiterate some of the statements about the 20% high school students who need some remedial classes when they reach college. i think that's been a real problem that didn't exist before. the comment was right on target.

unfortunately, it's very hard to find what the true price is for a college. it makes comparisons between college is very difficult. the credit issue is something that needs to be addressed. i've heard stories of people being in a state system and one state school wouldn't take credits from the other state school require them to take additional classes. just horrible, something that has to be addressed not only statewide and nationwide of requiring some sort of credit to be shared amongst schools that have been accredited by the same organization. which is even funnier. i did want to talk about the high school programs, and specifically i am concerned about the faculty and the profession of teaching at colleges and universities. it's a real concern because we have seen a real rise in positions. we have a program in my state of south carolina where students would go to committee called for the first two years bridge programs which are becoming very

popular across across the country and then go on to a four-year university for the last two years. what has happened is i left my high school teaching and went to university, received my ph.d. of course, larger debt on my back for that. and found difficulty finding a four year college adjunct decision. what i had to do was go to community colleges and for private colleges and work there but i found i was teaching the very students that were going to a four year college for probably about 75% less of a seller than it would've received at a four-year college. i'm very concerned about the future of faculty and tenured positions. >> guest: he's on target. there's been a gradual and but very definite transformation in the nature of the college

faculty. like 40 years ago, probably 40% of the faculty were tenured. today national it's about a quarter. it's a very small percentage. that changes how students are being taught on campus and how campuses work. the people who work as theater does, as adjunct professor, they pick up a classier come to class there. sometimes are paid as little as $3000 a course. congress have hearings on this a couple years ago and they talked about as piecework, which you don't think of higher education as an industry that has piecework workers but in this case it is. >> host: when they do that on be considered employees with medical benefits transfer and no. generally not. they don't get medical benefits they don't get retirement benefits. that's one of the reasons colleges to that is it saves them money and saves them gives them more flexible about they can schedule their classes. if they have the need for the

course one term, they have the professor. bring on the adjunct if they don't have the money classes the next room. it's had a big effect on the way -- if you're pressed proposed as an adjunct professor, they often don't have an office. it's hard to go and have office hours with the professor is not on campus. >> host: scott, you are on with goldie blumenstyk. >> caller: my comment is more or less how much the colleges are putting out moneywise instead of what did and making the kids pay to get in. they would hold back on what they pay for advertising on tv when the colleges are in the area. number two they could get online and check out colleges nationwide all over the place. my other point they could cut back on them money out like jim harbaugh, and now they've had to pay him $8 million to coach the

football team. maybe if it cut back on what they pay some of their staff and faculty, instead of making kids pay so much money to get in. i would think the education is more important being what it is kind of so much each of how to play a sport. >> host: a subject we talked about on saturday when they talked about college athletic programs, but the impact of some high dollar athletic program on the cost of education aspect yes. something i get into all of it in the book i wrote. there are about two dozen programs in the country, big division i programs that make profit on their sports programs. but there's a lot more sports programs and that the every college seems have some kind of a sports program.

athletic program and not all spending $8 million for their coach. they are not all spin that and spinning at the level but a death is an expense that the colleges somehow justified in a lot of ways. i used to go to games as i posted and i like to go to some do. it's not everywhere we have a lot of transparency in what the college spending is. also take into account some students we are from today some of the non-kurdish students who are going back, a lot of them are helping to subsidize some these programs as well. i don't expect to meet these working parents are going to any these football games or basketball games. >> host: is it getting worse in terms of the subsidizing of the athletic programs or are things moving in the right direction traffic spending on athletics, there's a group called the knight commission which is of reform organization for college sports. it puts out a lot of reports and if it continues to get frustrated by the activities that go on around the they

report spending on athletics is increasing faster than spending on construction. >> host: marisa s. next, capital florida. where do you go to school? >> caller: hi. i go to the university of florida in gainesville, florida,. >> host: what is your question or comment, marisa? >> caller: yeah, hi. i wanted to know your opinion on florida's hourly charge. basically what that is easy to take classes over a certain amount of credit you are actually charged almost 100% more for those classes than you would if you're under that limit. as a college student i know i changed my major guy richard wanted to go to nursing school when making your, and i switched to pre-law but i knew something of a student of also change their majors. so we are being penalized for actually going to pursue degrees that we want to eventually have

our careers in. what you think about that excess hours charge? >> host: what is the reason behind doing that? >> guest: to some degree it's because colleges don't want -- they are not saving money. while it sounds great that the students have a lot of interest a lot of interest and they have and it is interesting a budget of subject matters and learning a lot about things, the taxpayers of the state are in effect subsidizing this. a lot of schools want the students to get up and out. okay four years is good. we don't want to be subsidizing you for five or six years of school. that's the thinking. it sounds counter to because you think students want to learn. if the state is providing subsidies they feel like you want to subsidize four years worth of an education. >> host: and to her experience, what would you have for suggestion for traffic i don't have a great suggestion, sorry. i guess if you committed to these programs suggest, you

know, perhaps find some of the christian some of the ways. there's lots of community colleges and so there probably ways to take some of those courses at a community college to make up and i would be a more affordable option. >> host: we are talking with goldie blumenstyk. a reasonable came out this fall. she's with us until the end of our program today taking your questions, comments. tuscaloosa, alabama, also a student. good morning. >> caller: yes hi. my question is just one. is there a possibility of them raising the federal pell grant allotment? because i noticed there's been a steady increase in tuition cost by the federal pell grant tends to sit still for very long time. i'm sure you report about the recently. what do you think about that? >> guest: the reports and show the poker is covering a smaller and smaller percentage of the tuition cost these days or the

overall attendance costs i should say. you know as well as i do what the budget situation looks like in washington these days. i would be hard i can imagine it will be a major increase in the pell grant but congress can always surprises but i'm not sure that will happen. >> host: wild and wonderful makes the comment as were having this conversation on twitter page. the cost of college is not just tuition, but the lost opportunity to earn wages and a salary while attending college. we will be looking for your questions, comments on twitter and facebook as well. you can be no us if you want. we will look for those but in the meantime linda is in columbia, maryland, on outline for all of the. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i just want to make a couple quick comments and ask a question. there's a lot of generalization going on when you talk about the value of paying college tuition. we continue to hear your average college graduate makes a lot

more money in their lifetime. but in order to do a true cost-benefit analysis, shouldn't we be looking at the value lately and not historically? and shouldn't have to limit the top and bottom 10% of income earners? the top 10% make so much more money, probably will always on a lot more than anyone else in the bottom 10th doesn't work. or is underemployed. if you took out those two categories we would have a much better future after the value of this education. i am a strong believer and on the job training and high school programs and any other things where people can pull themselves out of poverty. thanks gus glinda makes a good point. of course, if you're talking about height education as kind of something that is a lifetime benefit, it necessary is measured after the first two years, and you also, we can't predict the future that well. a lot of the studies to look

backwards on income and to some degree they may not be right because what they're describing is what the benefits were of a degree a different economy than economy we will have in 20 years. so she's right that we can speculate on that but what else to go by? you go by what can you can look at a struggle record and look at the current time but i don't know if it's fair to measure the value of a college degree by someone strengthened first couple of years out these are. >> host: one, and when questioned over e-mail. john writes in come them students that one of the larger debt -- debts should have thought about that and planned accordingly. students who only need to learn skills to pursue a career should go to community college -- in terms of the question --

guest: >> guest: he should look into income-based repayment programs that the government offers right now in student loans. that's an area that none of these tunes are taking events of that as they should be. i think is all about 2 million students are now doing these income-based repayment programs even though the government has been trying to publicize them a bit more. that's a way right now for students who are borrowers, particularly, if you do not have an income you can get sort of a waiver on paying into the have an income. it extends the life of a famous but also keeps the direct burden lighter. >> host: about 50 minutes left in the washington bureau today with goldie blumenstyk. let's go out to ohio. jim is waiting on our line for educated. good morning jim. >> caller: good morning. all right. i'll try to go through this pretty quickly because i know you have a lot of callers waiting. i am 30 years a teacher from seventh grade through high school to college, and also

pre-ged students i've seen this from a lot of angles. i was an adjunct at a two-year college or community college or something, as they normally termed. file associate myself with everything theodor said about 15 minutes ago. he was right on the mark. the reason the average figures for faculty, i think that your guests might mentioned earlier pretty much stay flat is because they are paying a whole bunch of the faculty a whole bunch less in terms of the adjuncts and the full-time faculty, tenure-track faculty, prices have soared. some of them teach two classes a week. there's always a penalty for changing majors so you just needed to plan better. i wanted to go want to say that adjuncts are very appropriate for a lot of the students are required development of programs. so it's not at all bad thing that there are a lot of adjunct to read. i think is a pretty decent

adjunct in physics, having taught at the high school level, but for a lot of the students are required development of programs, that's a very appropriate thing. getting too personal developments, been left out of the equation altogether, becoming a better citizen or learning to appreciate art. let me talk about cost just a little bit more. when i went to college in the '60s, began college was working at a good year in akron. my college expense for a year, and this is a good measurement, was 100 times my hourly rate. so you took an hourly rate right now of about $9 an hour when people begin to work, that should be 900 a year for college tuition. i think you can see something has gone badly wrong since the late 60s. and lastly there's been very little discussion in this about pre-ged learners. there's a lot of people, tens of thousands in every state, who are working to get a secondary credential the college and

universities do very little. in ohio that ged programs are now under the board of regents. so they have taken a step to try and pull those people into the system. they have taken that step but that's been left out of your of the conversation. thank you for letting have so much time. >> guest: it's interesting i wrote a story not along that long ago about a project called the talent dividend price. .. the rate around the country, communities in ohio were the winners. schools around ohio, they had made a big effort to get more students to graduate and get college degrees. there are efforts in communities to improve this college going rate in some cases. >> jim also bringing up the topic again about switching majors, taking a longer time to graduate college.