of other states that the supreme court is considering right now. i believe the supreme court will take that case. i'm hoping that the supreme court will hear that case before the end of next june when they decide their cases for this term. i'm not involved in it now but i'm rooting for those lawyers who are handling this case. and if they want any help from me, they will have it. >> host: ted olson, david boies, "redeeming the dream: the case for marriage equality," this is booktv on c-span2. >> guest: thank you for talking to me. pleasure. >> military historian barrett tillman recounts the u.s. fifteenth air force's military exploits during world war ii in europe; specifically, the unit's attacks against nazi industrial facilities. this is about an hour and 15 minutes. >> good afternoon everybody. i'm barbara peters, this is the

poisoned pen. it's sunday, october the 12th, and i'm delighted to welcome back barrett tillman who has written over 40 books, most of them, i think nonfiction, but i know you have been here -- didn't you cowrite something with dean coontz wasn't it? -- koonts was it? were you kind of the expert? >> with steve i contributed to two original fiction anthologies at his request. steve had just been a marvelous friend and colleague and in 1984 our mutual publisher naval institute press, had sent me a manuscript written by a vietnam war aviator could "for each other." and the publisher asked my opinion, and i said this book so good if you don't publish it, i will. and the next year it was published as "flight of the intruder." so steve and i have kept in touch ever since. and then the harold coyle

trilogy was for forge. he came up with the concept of a foreign military contractor that does deniable work for the u.s. government all over the world. and that was a trilogy that was a fun change of pace for me because i hadn't done anything in the thriller realm at that time. so that was an education. >> i'm sure it was. and you're a wonderful writer. i mean, i think your nonfiction reads with all the pulse of fiction and a thriller. rer. you grew up flying airplanes, where does this aviation background come from? >> i'm an eastern oregon kid grew up next to the family crop duster slip in my hometown population 950 in athena oregon, and airplanes were always overhead. and that binded with the fact that my -- come wined with the

fact that my dad had been trained as a naval aviator, so i was blessed. use that word advisedly barbara. i was blessed being able to grow up helping to restore vintage airplanes and fly them. i guess overall i've had between 5-600 hours flying navy airplanes from the world war ii era. so that's been a tremendous benefit to me both in history and fiction. >> i'm sure those of you who read barrett realize he has an encyclopedic knowledge -- [laughter] i'm going to start talking about the first book, "the d day encyclopedia," which i believe, is an update -- >> yep. >> and probably, if i work this out right, to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the june 6 1944 d-day landing. >> exactly right. originally the book was

published for the 60th on versely, and it lapsed. i woke up one morning and realized oh, my gosh, in 12-14 months we're going to have the next, the 70th anniversary. so i eventually wound up with regnery doing an update. and the main difference between the original and this is that all of the deceased dates now were filled in. there are none of the historic figures -- >> still alive. yeah oh, i hadn't even thought about that. i was going to ask you if there was new material that had come out, you know from release of records and that kind of thing that would have changed some of the information that you had in the original version. >> i did expand upon a few of the entries. i know one had to do with intelligence from the allied side, and a couple of other

entries for expanded on the basis of additional information. one of them had another with the british and canadian navy participation. i found additional information on that. and this has been very well received. as an author it's always interesting to me to get feedback from my readers because two of them who don't know each other said this is a wonderful book because most of the entries are just the right length for bathroom reading. [laughter] >> well, it does make good bathroom reading. i started this yesterday and i won't say what i was doing -- [laughter] but i did dip in and out of it. and one of the things i thought was so fascinating, i was born in 1940, so i can't have any actual memories other than playing with my mother's food stamps and really getting whacked for it. [laughter] but my parents talked about many of these figures, you know, in the years after the war. so reading this was aal -- not just a refresher course, but the

entries about all of the personalities revealed things that you don't know when you're you know in history, when you're living through it, it's different hand -- >> it's current events. >> right. vietnam was my war, and now when i read about vietnam i think why didn't i owe any of that -- i know any of that then? so one of the things i thought was so interesting was the personalities that you talked about. we have dwight eisenhower who was the supreme allied commander, and my question would be was he there because he was a great general, or was he there because he was great at logistics or even great at pollices? >> -- politics? >> testifies great at politics -- he was great at politics. the conventional wisdom after the war was that ike was the one that held together the alliance. and that's certainly an exaggeration. it's not as if the british expect -- and the french were

going to take their balls and go home because they didn't like the fact that an american was the supreme commander. the other aspect was since america provided the huge majority of the manpower for the liberation of northwestern europe, it was just a given that eisenhower or at least another senior american would be the overall commander. but in fairness, his primary subordinates both were british. charles portal was the deputy commander, and then the head of the navy and the air campaigns also were british. so it was pretty much a balance between the anglo-americans. >> it was certainly operation overlord by committee in a sense -- >> yeah. >> there were so many different components. you also talk about, obviously you have a great fondness for jimmy doolittle whose primary

theater was the pacific right? but he did an awful lot in the european war. >> i was very fortunate to get to know general jimmy as he liked to be called somewhat, and that will reflect later on, forgotten fifteenth. but, of course, he came to world prominence as opposed to national prominence with the april 1942 bombing raid of tokyo and five other cities in that area. a daring concept, launching army twin-engine bombers from an aircraft carrier and that aspect of it worked. it turned out they had to launch a few hundred miles earlier than expected so all the planes except one ran out of fuel. but that brought an immediate promotion to then-lieutenant colonel doolittle to brigadier general. he received the medal of honor, and he was almost immediately sent to north africa, late 1942, where he learned the general

business running the north african allied air forces and then the u.s. 12th air force. so by time he came to italy in november of '43 to run the newly-established 15th air force, he was very much a known quantity, and he was only there two months before eisenhower recalled him to britain to take over the eighth air force for the run-up to d-day. >> which, of course had its problems in the sense that the weather didn't cooperate with the air strategy for d-day. you had that very low cloud cover. and as you wrote, the bombers actually ended up being too far back to really protect the people -- >> right. >> -- landing. >> yeah. the airman that i found in the air force -- the air plan that i found in the air force archives shows the normandy coast running mostly east/west, and the heavy bombers based in britain, 30 miles away, were approaching the

german-occupied beaches at a perpendicular angle from north to south. and the navy said we don't want the bombers dropping short because it'll endanger the ships offshore. the bombardiers added another fudge factor, the long story short most of the bombs fell one-and-a-half to three miles behind the beaches and therefore, really did no benefit to the landing troops. >> but that was such -- any of you who have traveled to england know how bad the weather is. and they have the tides to worry about too, so there really was no perfect day unless, you know incredible luck. >> well, d-day was originally scheduled for june 5th -- >> right. >> -- and eisenhower agreed the previous o-dark morning that they would have a 24-hour weather hold. and after that it was either all or nothing because the next favorable tides and moon phase were about three weeks

downstream. >> isn't that amazing to think that this was kept a secret, i mean, in the same way that oak ridge and los alamos remained a secret, think about it today with satellites and social media and everything, there is absolutely no way that operation overlord could ever -- but, you know, i find it fascinating. a couple other people i picked out that i found completely fascinating, movie director john ford. you give him a big entry why? >> john ford was a navy groupie, and even though his pre-war fame as a movie director or had nothing to do with naval subjects, as i recall he was born in maine and grew up on the rock bound coast. so saltwater was in his veins early on. and when world war ii started, he basically knocked on the navy's door and said, ta da, here i am. make use of me.

and he was given a direct commission, i think as a lieutenant commander with the film i crew, and he had visiting privileges almost anywhere. there's a little known but superb color documentary that his crew made right after the battle of midway in june of 1942 and he's well known for that documentary but less well known is fact that his film crew was aboard navy and coast guard ships off normandy. and some of the combat footage we see in the tv documentaries were fought -- shot by his cameramen. >> you know, it's obvious when you think about it but i was fascinated to see him. you know the person i like the best is actually a british person, simon frazier, lord love it. my lord, he is one of those highland warriors. [laughter] lucky him there was actually a war in the 20th century -- [laughter] because he was a man born the

fight. >> oh, absolutely, he was. he was the senior commando in the british armed forces. born and bred in the scottish highlands. and if there hadn't been a war, he would have found a way to start one. he's one of these, as you say, a natural-born warrior whose life would have been wasted in any other endeavor. and even though he was severely wounded during the normandy campaign and he received the last rites in anticipation of death, he told a subordinate later on the war is not over, laddie. so he got back into combat before the war ended. >> he was also lucky that pencillen had been developed because he probably wouldn't have survived those wounds. so it was fortunate that technology caught up with him. you talk about other figures patton and rommel and so forth, but there are four politicians that we should briefly mention. charles de gaulle who has

always been controversial both in france and among the allies, but you give him pretty good ratings. >> well, he was a progressive military theorist before world war ii. he had spent most of world war i as a prisoner of the germans but between the wars he became france's leading advocate of tank warfare. and consequently, his seniority was such that when france fell in june of 1940, de gaulle evacuated to britain with tens of thousands of other free french, and he became a significant factor in allied planning. and i think the most wonderful statement made about him was from winston churchill who said the greatest cross i must bear is the cross of lorraine. >> right. de gaulle, in other words. but, you know, the truth is somebody had to be running the french government so when the germans were pushed pack and

kicked out, they could actually function, you know? it was a vacuum at that point, so de gaulle was able to do that. we've probably, most of us know about churchill although you -- when we talk about him, fallon you don't because he wasn't a figure in d-day, and this book is about d-day. but i thought you said something about franklin roosevelt that i have often thought. there's a lot of medical theories about if this person or this illness hadn't gone on, then history would have been different. and, i mean, if napoleon hadn't suffered from hemorrhoids, he might not have lost from waterloo, but he couldn't sit on his house. that's true and miserable. fdr, in your judgment in this book, should not have run for a fourth term. >> are correct. >> he was just, he was done, you know? he was a dying man. >> if you look at the films especially from the yalta conscious about, what, maybe six weeks before he died that's a dying man. and he really should have stepped down.

but it was not in him to vacate the presidency. >> and the reason was, of course, that there was a principal lis when he was -- paralysis when he was so ill. there wasn't anybody that -- i've read things that say patton could have made it to berlin before the russians but he was unable to because there was no, basically, american functioning command at that point from january to march when roosevelt died. and, of course, truman had been kept out of things to a great degree, didn't even know about the bomb. >> that's correct. >> so i've always thought that harry truman, you know a person who had absolutely no training for any of the role that fell upon him did an amazing job with. i mean, think about some of the -- and he learned from the treaty of versailles. they did not have a punishing treaty. he did lend-lease, all that stuff. and roosevelt had such contempt for him, he didn't take him into confidence about anything. >> it would have been fascinating to have been the proverbial fly on the wall on the day truman was inaugurated

when i assume marshall, the chief of staff, said, mr. president, there's something you need to know about that's going on in new mexico. >> of course, hitler none of us give him points for being a great human being -- [laughter] but a question i have always wondered and i think the same thing about napoleon, why russia? why couldn't they just stick to europe, you know? and be happy with that? and maybe that's not part of a personality like that. >> apparently it is not, barbara. i think the one thing that napoleon and hitler had in common was that they believed their own pr, they were drinking their own kool-aid. >> and alexander the great if we really want to go back, i think, was the same, don't you? >> the great captains of history typically overreach themselves. they're a victim of their own success. >> well, i think that's true. now, we we've talked about people. you give a lot of space to the various armed forces land, sea

and air because they take all three, on the american, the british and the german front, which i thought was fascinating. you talk about the weaponry the kinds of planes and the kinds of guns, and you give credit to two american gun designers, mr. browning -- and, i'm sorry, i don't remember the other one. >> mr. durant. >> okay. >> he was born a canadian became a u.s. citizen, and he was an employee of the u.s. army ordnance service, and he spent about 12 years or so designing what became the m1 semiautomatic rifle that meant that the u.s. armed forces with the only ones in the second world war entirely equipped with a semiautomatic rifle. so that made a big difference. and then john m. browning, native-born genius of utah

mormon gunsmith designed and held the patents on almost every automatic weapon that the united states used in the second world war, from the browning automatic rifle, the squad automatic weapon, the light and the heavy machine guns and the fabulous 1911 pistol that was in front line service for 75 years and still is issued today. so he was a true american genius. >> you also give space to the guy that designed the landing craft. >> yeah. >> hubbel? >> higgins. >> higgins, yeah. and i thought that was fascinating. >> he's another boot strapper success story. established a privately-owned boat building company in new orleans, and he anticipated before the navy the need for mass produced landing craft in

event of not a war but the next war. and the, it's generically called the higgins boat. actually it was the landing craft vehicle and personnel, the lcvp that made possible amphibious operations in every theater of action. >> yes, i thought that was terrific. also you finally cleared up for me various things about the kinds of airplanes that were used. i mean, we all know about the big, was it the b47, the workhorse bomber? >>b17. >> sorry. i had not realized the douglas aircraft, what you called the sky train, was it the c-47? >> yes. >> became basically what? a passenger plane that they managed to turn into a personnel carrier? >> that's right. >> an airborne personnel carrier? >> it was the revolutionary douglas dc3 airliner dated from the mid to late 1930s, anding the army air corps recognized

that this has tremendous potential not only as a transport and a cargo airplane, but it can deliver paratroops. and we could not have conducted the normandy campaign as we did without c-47s and gliders. >> right. otherwise you'd have had to transport everybody by ship. >> correct dr. and even though what, we won the war in the atlantic by, what 1943 by sheer force -- >> yeah. the turning point in the battle of the atlantic came in may of 1943 when if you look at the chart, the number of sinkings of merchant vessels that were taking supplies to britain build-up to d-day fell below the number of german submarines that were being sunk. so, essentially, the battle of the atlantic was won 13 months before d-day. >> in fact, your theme of this book is the germans were actually better equipped and probably had better strategy better training everything else

but there just weren't enough of them once they developed a worldwide theater, was several time -- because several times in the book you say they were just too thin, they were just, you know they just didn't have enough. basically, as long as everything didn't fall to them a war of attrition was going to win. >> yeah. they did not have the sustainability that the allies did. >> right. deception. you have a section about an attempt to convince the germans the landing would not be in normandy where it was in omaha and the other beaches but would be at what -- [inaudible] >> correct. there was a length, complex plan called bodyguard of lies was the definitive book on the subject, and there was a multi-tiered plan to deceive the germans that the landings would take place

which if you look at the map is the logical crossing point. i think it's barely 25 miles from calaise across the channel. and we had turned some german intelligence agents and caught them, made them an offer they couldn't refuse -- either you feed false information to your masters in germany or you have a date with 12 gentlemen with .303 rifles. and that combined with signals intelligence sending false information that we knew the germans would intercept and decode, and george patton was a big part of the deception because he was given command of a nonexistent army, an organization of, i don't know probably eight or ten divisions, and that's why he was so visible throughout britain in the days

leading up to overlord so that the germans would keep focused on him and his appearances coincided -- so it seemed -- with the planned landings in the calaise. >> you didn't mention it, but did any of you watch the ian fleming three-wart bio on -- three-part bio on television earlier this year? because fleming was crazy in many ways -- laugh and one reason he wrote great james bond novels was because of that. but he also was an extremely effective agent of british therefore, allied intelligence because of his fiction abilities. and he had a plan to actually take a corporation. i don't think he kill -- a corporation corpse. i don't think he killed anybody and put fake information about where the landing would be and throat it off. you can't -- float it off. you didn't mention it -- >> actually, it was called operation mincemeat --

>> okay, that was -- all right. [laughter] it isn't in your book. >> it deceived the germans as to where the sicily landings were going -- >> oh, was it sicily, not normandy? oh, okay. >> but a wonderful concept. [laughter] you r they dressed this corpse he was probably a british sailor, in a royal marine uniform with a briefcase handcuffed -- >> oh, right, that was it. >> and the spanish recovered the wreckage and, of course immediately told the germans hey, look what we have. and that deceived them as to where the siciliano landings would occur. >> if any of you are interested in fouling some of this fiction an author named james r. bend has written some really wonderful books about a piewj ty kind of shirt tail relative of eisenhower's. he's a boston cop and gets to go do stuff. and his most recent book, he is in england right before operation overlord launches, and

he writes about, um one of the screw-ups. you talk about slapped in sands. >> yeah. >> but he said at one point when they were doing a training exercise on the beach because the south coast of england kind of mirrored some of the beaches in france the british navy got their signals crossed and actually wiped out a bunch of people. what was slapped in sands? that's the one -- >> that was operation tiger which was a dress rehearsal -- >> oh, okay. >> -- for some of the american forces that were going to land in normandy. the germans had a class of torpedo boats that they called s boats, fast boat. we called them e-boats. and i think two of the german torpedo boats penetrated the practice landing area at night and torpedoed two or three american ships with heavy loss of life. i think about 400 americans were

killed. and operation tiger therefore, became classified until the end of the war and it's interesting to watch the internet revelations because about every 10-12 years somebody discovers the cover-up and says look what happened. and, actually it's been known, i think since about the late '40s. >> what other operations were there? overlord was the name of the overall thing, but then there was operation neptune. was that the naval part? >> correct. [laughter] >> should be obvious right? >> the full name of the whole operation was neptune/overlord, and, of course, you can't have an amphibious operation without a naval aspect. and neptune as i explain in the encyclopedia, involved ships from about five allied nations. not just the u.s. and britain, but canada which had the third largest navy in world war ii, and then there were individual ships from free france and

poland. so it really was a multi-national endeavor. >> i will say that you achieved a wonderful balance even though you're clearly an aviation junkie -- [laughter] but there's a lot in here about the navy and the army, and you give great space to the royal air force and, you know, the planes that it flew as well as the american and then the royal canadian air force, so forth. >> you bet. >> anyway, it's absolutely fascinating, i thought. you liked the phonic alphabet. >> yeah. >> like alpha, bravo whatever charlie. but you have a chart or that lusts the u.s. version -- >> the british version -- >> and then -- >> and the german version. >> and ther german version. i thought the choice of names was really fun. sometimes they were the same like king and king. >> ye. >> but the german ones were -- >> well, they were, the germans were on time brew know -- bruno, caesar, and, in fact,

they even had a word that eludes me for an umlaut -- >> oh. and there's a new thriller out called whiskey tango foxtrot and, in fact those are three of the code words in the, in the british side of it, you know? so there's a lot you can learn from this book that i found completely fascinating. i marked a couple of things. you've got all kinds of extra stuff in here like d-day movies and the d-day museum and, you know the fact they didn't destroy the tapestry even though they might well have because it was headquarters and so forth, and i think the other thing that i had saved was your entry on john ford which i we've already talked about and which i loved. he actually was promoted to rear admiral in naval reserve and got a presidential medal of freedom. i can't remember, i was reading the new york times, and i have to say that newsprint does not make a great --

[laughter] bookmark. oh okay. so the other operation that i forgot to mention then we'll move on, was operation cobra. >> yeah. that was the overall allied plan to break out from the normandy bridgehead, and highly complex evolution because it required the british and the americans to coordinate not only the ground forces but the air power that also was intended to blast a path through the german-fortified areas inland from normandy. and it met with mixed success as i explain in the encyclopedia. again, well-intentioned, heavy bombers did not have well defined aim points, and a lot of their bombs fell short and killed or wounded several hundred americans. including lieutenant general mcnair who was the overall commander of all american ground

forces in europe, and he was the senior american general killed in world war ii by friendly fire. ..

>> this is the sort of thing you can dip in and out of and i think enjoy. so it isn't -- now, let's look at -- between july of 2013 and july 2014 you brought out three books. >> crazy, probably. although i will plead thesituation is beyond my control. the two publishers happened to release them on the street between early may and the end of june. back off a few months and you can eofficiate this.

i don't know how i made it through. but luckily i was able to. >> host: i am sure it was difficult. i suspect it was easier and if you were not in fiction every is made up and it would all be different trying to do three at once but you are working in the same universe and had to remember which book your focus is on. the marine core fraud in world war ii -- this is your love of aviation here. you are focused on the fly leathernecks. we learned the marines got the future of glory at the battle of the woods in world war one and were known as the devil dog, a

term i use for my puppy. but it created jealousy and political turmoil with the army because they were not too anxious to have the marines involved. >> the world war one generation of armies without exception, mccarther being the example, detested the marine core. i used to know admiral morey who gave the briefing in the pentagon in early 1944 suggesting that marine bomber squads based on the escourt channels in the north sea with a brand new locket were ideal for destroying german sites in northern france. and marshal today is up and said that is the end of the briefing.

there is never going to be a marine in europe as long as i am chief of staff. john wane made the flying leathernecks about the pacific instead of the atlantic. you do underline the importance of the politics. >> host: your book recognizes 120 marine core pitefighting aces. what makes them ace? >> tradition dating from world war one a fighter ace or flying ace, snoopy was a flying ace actually, it is a combat pilot who is credited for shooting down at least five enemy air craft. i wrote the book aside from the fact it had never been done before and there was a gap in the market is that in researching and writing other books i got to know so many of

the wonderful men personally and the main exhibit, of course was jill fosse a long term scottsdale resident here. and despite all of the hype in that direction, joe fosse was and is the pop scolding marine core fighter pilot of all time because all of his victories were scored as a marine whereas the others were claimed with the flying tigers in china and burma. and i have to tell the story about joe. a wonderful human being who was an evangelist and he would go anywhere to talk about his faith but beneath that he was

dedicated to being an avator and he was so competitive he had a hard time letting his children win at go fish. >> host: how many went on to fight in korea and any in vietnam? >> there were none in vietnam but in the korean war there was jack bolt who flew a regular tour in korea with the marine core squad and he is another dedicated warrior who lived for combat. he was selected to fly an ex change tour with the air force near the end of the war and shot down six communist jet fighters. so he is the marine core's only

two-war ace. >> host: you are great at this but we are talking about them flying. the head quarters were primary in san dieogo and monaco? >> yes that was before the marine core. it was one east coast and one west coast and each sent detachments to the virgin islands, caribbean or out to hawaii. there were only a dozen squad squadrants and the appendix list all 50 of them who served outside of the united states during world war ii so there was expansion. >> host: what did they fly? when you see the roster buffalo?

>> it was a prewar fighter. fairly significant in naval history. it went operational in 1939 as the navy and marine core first model fighter as opposed to the two-wing by-planes preiously. its only combat mission was disastrous but the wild cat was much more successful and was the marine core's primary fighter well into 1943. and in the overall study i include about the marine core fighter operations in world war ii the main focus was the campaign in '42-'43 and that is

where you see the big names existing who were successful with the wild cat even though it was inferior to the japanese version. >> host: so you mentioned just briefly to finish up here, pearl harbor there was no chance for anyone to act. in wake island, the marines repealed the first intend. but midway was the battle of the turning point for the japanese advances across and as you say the canal was really the long slide. and then they moved on to the philippines and elsewhere. so based upon the whole book

what is your assessment of the decision to drop the bomb. did it really save lives? >> guest: yes, it did. i was touring the national air and space museum in washington, d.c. at the silver hill maryland restoration facility. and there were a group of japanese tourist going through it and one of them was a doctor fluent in english and i got to talking to im -- him -- about the decision to drop the bomb and he said it was terrible and people died for years later because of the radiation. but the invasion planned would have been horrific and researching another book i found interrogation with japanese

civil, military and diplomatic officials in the strategic bombing survey and they were almost all agreeing in the statement that millions of japanese would have died. >> host: and many allies as well. the papers commented on the emperor who is hidden as a puppet in a lot of analysis of the war and said he was far more active than is thought to be true and he was the stubborn one who refused to surrender. hirishma was flattened and

everybody got radiation poisoning and the city was destroyed. nasa nasa nasa nasa nasagi is almost an alternitive drop and there was another city that was supposed to be the target but the cloud cover was too terrible. the radiation poisoning killed people but it hardly damaged the city because of the geography of the bomb withstood the blast so it didn't wipe out the old historic buildings and you can still visit them. so unless you go there you would not know that. but i found it to be fascinating and having talked to people in japan they generally see the

loss of life of japanese and our team would have been so much greater and they are now realizing if he had said we are done they could have spared the second bombing. >> host: in early march of 1945 the b-29s under another island leveled 1/6 of tokyo overnight and the next morning he got in a limo, saw what he saw and smelled what he had to smell and decided we are not going to surrender. imagine if britain or the united states suffered 85,000 people dead overnight -- would we have still wanted to continue the war? i am not sure. >> host: these are not questions we can answer.

okay. your books are published here and the final book we are going to do and jeff and i are doing the "forgotten fifteenth: the daring airmen who crippled hitler's war machine" but first does anyone have questions they would like to ask about the two books we just discussed or are you in a state of total amazement? seriously, anything you would like to ask about anything we talked about. >> at the start you mentioned doolittle, he raced airplanes before world war ii and how poplar was he then? >> guest: he was a rock starr in aviation. he won every race available. the sea and land planes and he always made a contribution to

aviation progress in developing instrument flying and worked in concert with the sperry company and after he left the air core before world war ii and worked with shell oil he developed high octane gasoline. how significant would you consider the deception campaign prior to d-day leading to the success of it? >> guest: it was extremely significant. i don't happen if it made the difference between winning and loosing simply because of the huge numerical disparity between the allies and the germans but what it did is cause hitler and his general staff to hold back the reinforcements that were well inland and were positioned

to reinforce a bridge either in the patlack or in normandy and that uncertainty about where the landings would occur but the allies extra time once the troops were ashore. >> anybody else? >> i have one more. i have a a thousand actually. talking about naval aviation were there any pilots that got their start in the by-planes and went on to be qualified in the super fighters of the '60s? >> guest: absolutely. i often said whatever you make of the wisdom of the greatest generation of americans being world war ii and it was definitely like that with the

pilots. they started with 80-90 knots and those staying for 25 careers finished flying mock two jets and that type of progress is simply not possible anymore. >> i think my next question is for the next book. i will hold off. >> guest: okay. >> on that note we will change over to the "forgotten fifteenth: the daring airmen who crippled hitler's war machine" and switch to a different theater. there is a little overlap with the earlier but one of the interesting things about this book and theater of the war is it brings to mind the saying amateur amateurs doing strategy and professionals doing logistics. let's start with the beginning of it book because it starts with a narrative description of the planes moving through the path. would you like to describe it? >> guest: i wanted to set the stage in the prologue showing the readers a typical bombing

mission flown from italy in the mediterranean theater of operations northward into austria or germany and bombing factories and transportation targets north of the alps. and when you think about it it is a rich dilima because i have been fascinated with hannible and his efforts to get the elephants up the narrow rocky mountain trails and sometimes breaking trails themselves with

a resolve to fastforward to the first part of the 21st century where fleets of bombs are streaming cotton contrails through the chilly upper atmosphere. and that contrast appealed to me so that is why i started the book as i did. >> host: it made be wonder if they asked patton for directions since he was the reincarnation of hanible. another interesting light it shed on the war was the aspect of petroleum was one of the central issues of the conflict. and you talked about that a little in the book. would you like to explore that importance? >> guest: the reason the 15th army air freeze was established in november of 1943 was the allied combined chiefs in london

and washington, d.c. recognized in order to defeat germany it would be essential to turn off the oil taps. and about one third of nazi's germany petroleum came from romania specifically 10-12 revineries in the area. if you look at a map of europe and draw the line you will see from london southeast is not able to be reached by the bombers. and the 15th division was established in november of 1943 and job one of the list of things to do was to prevent the ro

romanians and germans from continuing to produce raw oil and petroleum products but refined high octane gasoline. it turned into a four or five month campaign in early 1944 that it cost the 15th air force approximately 250 airplanes but turned off almost all of the oil and then later that month the russians invaded and took over the area. oil was job one and after that was accomplished the 15th could focus on other mentions like synthetic refineries throughout southern europe and railroad and others ways. it was conducted north and south

by the eight air force in britain and the 15th air force in italy. >> host: there are so many amazing stories in the book. there is no way to capture them all but we will have to hit on the highlights. you can catch the rest in the book. i know you talked about him a little bit but general jimmy who i believe you got to know personally. he seems like an amazing character and you covered the raid to tokyo and he set-up the 15th in a two-month period but he actually flew in combat during the war. >> guest: yes, he did. he began flying combat with the raid of 16 army bombers on the tokyo urban area in april of 194 and that meant a medal of honor but a double promotion from the

lieutenant to the general. and i was lucky to get to know him because i was tapped by the los angeles-area chamber of commerce to write the program for his 80th birthday in 1976. and we just hit it off and we established a friendship and kept in touch. general jimmy's attitude was if he was going to command an air force he was going to fly every airplane in that air force. and one of the fighter units had british spit fire in north africa and he was caught red-handed by eisenhower climbing out. and he said any lieutenant can fly fighter planes and he said do you want the planes or run the air with the implication

being you can do one but not both and he said i will lead your air and forget and led the first bombing mission. >> host: let's take a moment to explore what was a pretty powerful divide at the time between the airman's men taetalitytae talmentality and the airman's menmenity mentality and do little and eisenhower's relationship. >> guest: eisenhower was a west point snob and didn't have the appreciation of a reserve officer who didn't wear the west point ring. it is really surprising because eisenhower was smart and a

capable leader and administrator so it makes you wonder what was it about his professional military education that led him to denigrate to a certain extent reserve officers. but dolittle as i point in the book wrote to his wife in late 1943, i guess i cold myself to general eisenhower because i am going to command the 15th air force. he didn't have a veto on the decision because he was in the process of moving up to england to establish the supreme allied head quarters there. but he demonstrated his acceptance of dolittle two months he established the 15th air force and requested him to run the 8th air force for the rest of the war. >> host: let's talk just for a

minute about dolittle's replacement who was another interesting guy -- or just a guy with an amazing story. >> guest: nathan twinning was from an old military family. they had almost i think, an unbroken line of service in the u.s. army or navy dating from the revolution. twining was, i believe, named for an uncle who was an admiral and his brother was a marine core general so the military was in their dna. he had previous experience commanding the 13th air force and was tapped by general arnold in washington to transfer from the pacific to italy and takeover the 15th air force in january of '44.

>> host: and he was shot down in the pacific and survived six days at sea. >> guest: he was on a b-17 bomber that got lost and ran out of fuel. he wasn't shot down. he survived that ordeal and emerged stronger than other. >> host: and wasn't he on the force that was haunting pancho villa? >> guest: yes he was. at that point he was still a national guardsman and was on persian's expedition for a few weeks. >> host: let's return to the war. the steep learning curve and stiff resistance in high attrition rate was shocking that

they experienced early and throughout the war. talk a bit about that. >> guest: just a short course in pre-war and army air force doctrine. the air force school generated plans and doctrines that were spread throughout the army and they came up with a four engine high altitude bomber that was supposed to be able to fend off enemy interceptions without the use of friendly-fire escourtsrts. and until well into world war ii we had no long range escort fighters and that concept of the self-defending bomber came up against northern europe in 1943

and the attrition was such that in late '43 it was impossible for a bomber crew to finish a 25 tour was the average attrition because 4% and 25 times 4 doesn't take a math quiz to solve. so the arrival of the long rage fighters especially the b-51 mustang, made it possible for the daylight bombing campaign in contrast to the british who flew almost entirely at night. >> host: they showed persevereiance in the face of this. there were examples of heroism. maybe you can describe those. >> guest: two 15th air force

recipients of the medal of honor are two examples. both involved missions to or near plasti in the summer of 1844. a bomber from my home state lieutenant david kingsley tended a badly wounded gunner and had to take off his parachute harness in order to apply first aid and that harness disappeared in the confusion. and he made the decision to take off his harness and put it on the wounded sergeant and clipped on his chest back parachute and pushed him out of the bomb bay and he led the bomber to his death knowing what was coming. so if there is a better definition above and beyond the

call of duty i don't know what it is. the other is a b-24 pilot whose plane was damaged and he had three crew members wounded or unwilling to bail out and he stayed with it trying to make a crash landing and almost got down safely but the tip snagged on a hill and the plane cart wheeled. that was donald puckett who received a medal of honor as well. >> host: one thing i found amusing was when the men got new bomb bomber they looked were for hidden messages. >> guest: he heard a lot about

rosie the rivter who was building ships and vehicles and everything. but after a little while the mechanics who assembled learned if they looked on a certain panel behind the instrument panel they could find pencil messages from the riveters with name address, phone numbers, give me a call soldier. if they were especially thorough they listed their bra size. >> host: many letters, so you could not confirm if any marriages resulted. >> guest: definitely correspondence but hook ups remain under investigation. >> host: i would like to give you a chance to talk about

personalities on the other side of the war. it was an intense conflict on both sides. i like that you did explore that side and put more of a human face. but you could talk about the more enduring characters. i know a fewestern europe-- few eastern europeans. >> guest: after mousseline was overthrown he was rescued in a daring raid after that but the northern portion of italy remained in axis hands until the end of the war. but there was a group of italian fighter pilots one or two squad squads, who flew into a p-38 base climbed out and reported

for duty wearing what the military calls their class a uniform. caps with a plume, capes and white gloves and how else would a gentlemen appear when joining the newly established air force? two of my favorite characters on the axis side were a colonel named handrick who was a great athlete and won a gold medal at the olympics in berlin in 1936. but by the time the 15th air force was established he was commanding the air defense sector around viena and that was the hardest target the 15 had loosing something over 300 airplanes over the city or the area. so he was an ex extremely

capable air commander. and the personal connection i have is i used to know his rival rival, general leonard, and he became friends in berlin at the olympics because leonard got the silver medal. and afterwards the leonard family sent food and clothing to the hendrick family in germany until they could get back on their feet. and my absolutely favorite chair in the entire book is a fabulous individual prince constintene who was royalty and excelled at

everything he did. he was captain of the hockey team captain of the stunt pilot, a champion motorcycle and automobile racer. and to him, real combat was the ultimate support. he was extremely good at that competition because he shot down something over 40 soviet and american aircraft. but once, romania settled, he realized they were likely to be liberated by the soviets but he thought many americans would not be released and as we know now many were not. so he stuffed an american pow in his 109 with a flag on the fuse

lodge and flew it down to the 15th air force head quarters in bali and planned a massive air lift to fly bombers up to the rest area load the pow's aboard and take them back to freedom in italy. and he made the mistake of letting the american fighter pilot fly and wrapped it in a ball. in order to guide the release force, he needed an american airplane and the only one available was the p-51 mustang and the only ones of those he saw were in his gun slide a few weeks before. but he was a natural born pilot who said show me how the start the thing, took off, put on a world-class demonstration and landed and said i am ready, let's go. he was a tremendous character.

and he was married four times. one of his wives, divorced him married a british gentlemen name gray and their daughter is best known as linda gray the fans of the dallas tv series. so i don't know if she ever met her mother's previous husband but it is a remarkable situation. >> host: well i think that is all we have time for. there are so many more wonderful and fascinating episodes in the book. do we have time for a few more questions? we have a few more questions about this. >> i know you have one. but to be fair is there something else who would like to ask a question first? okay. then i think it is you. >> i have a personal question if you would.

you mentioned that you had flown over 500 hours of military aircraft and remodeled some. did you have a favorite? if so why? >> guest: my favorite was the dive bomber that my dad, friends and family and i restored in the early 1970's. we acquired it from portland oregon who was using it to control mosquitos and it got too expensive to operate. we acquired the plane and it was the only flying example of the scout bomber by douglas in the world and now i think two or three are air-worth. i realized nothing was written about it in the course of researching although it was the most significant american

aircraft in the american war after pearl harbor because of the victories it got us. one of my favorite pictures is that i took from another airplane of my dad flying that airplane. it is close-up shot of him. it was over the wall when he died early this year. it became the subject of my first book and remains by favorite. >> i see in your book you mentioned the lady be good. i remember as a child, my dad new rich base movie out, "long survivor" and i remember finding out it was a b-24 and a true

story. do you know what happened to that airplane? did they just scrap them? >> it wasn't a 15th air force airplane. it was -- it went down in the north african desert shortly before the 15th was established. but navigational error the crew flew hundreds of miles south from the african coast, ran out of fuel, landed in the desert and the airplane wrecked. i think it was found in 1958 and was eventually back to the united states for display at an air force museum. >> so it is still somewhere then? >> i imagine it is the air force museum in dayton. >> thank you, sir. >> thank you, all, very much for joining me and for coming. i would like to say i mentioned to you, james bend as written wonderful books on this, but allen first in many ways is to go-to for various theaters of

world war ii and he as a brilliant book about romania and the value of the oil fields there. he is in hungry as well. he is everywhere. if you want a broad-based picture of world war ii the allen first novels are it. but if you want another perspective you cannot do better than tillman. if you would like him to sign the books, you can bring them up. thank you for coming. >> guest: thank you for hosting me. >> good job. >> this is an army airplane. an a-24 and it is at the wright-patterson museum.

yes, sir? how would you like that in inscribed? >> you are watching booktv. television for serious readers. here is a look at books being published this week: senator marco rubio gives his vision for the future of the united states in american dreams. in the working, my search for a life that matters, wes mario remembers his year in the bronx and baltimore to his accounts in afghanistan. and a writers memoir. a and in hidden in plain sight

peter examines the role of the government in the 2008 financial crisis. next a book at the design and construction of new york's verrazano-narrows bridge. completed in 1964 it is the longest suspension bridge in the united states and the sixth longest in the world. this is about an hour and five minutes. good evening, everybody. welcome to celebrating the verrazano-narrows bridge. a program with sam roberts and gate lee. i am