we have also heard that maybe the money that is going into the pockets supposedly into the pockets of the working people is actually going come a lot of this going to be transferred tricky to the government or that money might go directly to the government and then be handed out to the working people. is that right? we agreed to back? >> we believe on balance the

people will benefit more from this and the government will. >> that's not the question whether you think and whether we think it. do you think the cuban people are going to be working for these companies and now we have been permitted to go into cuba and the cuban people want their government to take their pay? >> i'm sure they don't. >> whose side are we on? are there going to be opposition parties new opposition parties? >> we will continue to support those who want to have their voices heard. >> but there have been no concessions on their part so we have changed five decades of u.s. policy and they still won't have any independent unions opposition parties. i can imagine they are going to have opposition newspapers and the rallies, this is a regime

that the castro brothers came in and once they were in power they murdered the patriots who overthrew the regime, they personally did. the putt fellow that we were negotiating with ticket pistol and took these patriots out and shot them in the head by the hundreds and after that they decided to have a relationship with the soviet union which was then our main enemy and encourage the soviet union to put missiles that had nuclear weapons on them and encourage them to use them on the united states. this is the regime we are dealing with not to mention the criminals they have given safe haven to. now how we can change five decades of policy by dictate from our president here and then we hear there is no concessions on their side is disillusioning on our part and upsetting. thank you very much. >> thank you mr. rohrbacher and

now we go to. >> mr. smith and mr. berman can you tell us what percentage of cuban businesses are owned privately? >> i can't tell you a precise percentage but certainly there are over 200 categories of private sector economic activity authorized by the cuban government. >> authorized by the cuban government? >> their private businesses. >> i don't have any additional information. >> i can tell you 15%. 85% of businesses in cuba are owned by the military. the hotels are owned by the military. the bed and breakfasts are run by the families of the military. the umbrella agency that approves the business is the son-in-law of one of the castro so when you say to me that the cuban people which is what i'm interested in are going to

benefit by doing business with the cuban people you are not reaching very many people. the private sector that runs the hotdog stand maybe what we are talking about the big businesses which employ people is run by the generals. and if you want to put a business in cuba you want to build a mcdonald's and you need 100 employees you have to go to the government and they give you the rate and they give you the employees and those employees are people who are part of the government system. so the people that are fighting for liberty and fighting for democracy on the island are basically left out. these are the things you have to negotiate away from the cuban government so if your intentions are to help the cuban people of the ordinary cuban people you are not helping them. this is a society that has

upheld themselves with this kind of business that they run. >> just to be clear the regulations are designed exactly to get items to the 15%. that's the way the regulation works so it can be exported without individual licenses having to go to the true private sector. >> in terms of millions of dollars. what do you think is going to benefit the cuban government and millions? >> we don't have a figure that would benefit the cuban government. our changes have been focused on private entrepreneurs and small scale business private business that we are talking about and again i repeat that most of the transactions between the united states and cuba remain prohibited under these exchanges. we just carved out a few areas as mr. subfour talks about their that are focused on the private entrepreneurs.

>> if we go and sell lead to cuba are we going to buy sugar from cuba? there's no real crop of sugar in cuba anymore. cuba used to be the worlds leading supplier of sugar. cuba does business with the rest of the world. this whole idea that you have to grow this in some sort of a corporate has ruined the entire economy. there is no real free business in cuba. even the people that you deal with that you say have 200 licenses the cuban government can remove those licenses at a drop. >> if i could i met with seven or eight of these entrepreneurs. people really trying to run their own businesses restauranteurs a barber, a woman making soap, women doing

decorations on clothing and you can see people beginning to separate their own economic future from the government and having trouble because they can't get the supplies. the state doesn't want to provide them the supplies. that is who we are trying to help. >> but yet they have all the supplies and this is what i'm trying to bring. this is what runs the island. the generals, the people you see driving the cars, living in the houses that have been repossessed from people who have worked hard and their businesses before the castro takeover. i just don't see where we have any more leverage to get some of these changes to help the cuban people. i was just talking to my colleague. my aunt came over a couple of years ago. i don't have a birth certificate and i asked her when you go to

cuba can you get me a birth certificate i don't know what my mother did with it. when she went to the miscible building they said we can't give her one because we ever classified as a terrorist. i left at the age of 11 so i'm a terrorist. and i don't want to share the story of what happened to my cousin who is her son who was educated in russia had become an engineer and it's too tragic to even share the story with you. my feelings are that these people are just dictators. they are brutal dictators. people forget raul castro and che guevara set up a firing squad in cuba that killed thousands of people and i see people wearing a che guevara shirt. i'm sorry, thank you. >> thank you mr. sires. mr. chabot of ohio. >> thank you madam chairman and

thank you for calling this important hearing to discuss the administration's new cuban policy that i believe president obama's announcement to unilaterally change u.s. policy toward cuba sets a dangerous precedent. in fact it furthers an ongoing pattern of his utter disregard for congress that that's the way this administration operates. it gives a backhand to the elected representatives of the american people treats congress like the proverbial mushroom. keep them in the dark and feed them a newer. ms. jacobsen jacobs and you said there were new concessions and this wasn't necessarily something that the cuban government -- those statements on their face or just not credible. you also said the obama administration was under no illusion about the nature of the cuban government. i would submit that the administration is just about as naïve about the nature of the

cuban government apparently has that was about isis when the president famously described them jv or junior varsity. tell that to the families of those who have been brutally massacred by those barbarians. this cuban policy, this new policy is in my view tragically flawed. the way it was brought about with such utter disregard and you are hearing it on both sides of the aisle here, utter disregard for elected representatives by the american people is disgraceful and it's justice broad. i would like to yield the balance of my time to the gentlelady from florida who was born in cuba and feels just as passionately about this is anybody misplays iliana ros-lehtinen. >> thank you mr. chabot and following up on your thought about brutality wherever those victims are i wanted to give

ms. jacobs and the opportunity secretary jacobsen to answer that questions. how can marlena alejandra explained to their daughters whether grandfather who was killed by the castro regime and his life meant nothing and the person who is in jail as a co-conspirator of the murder of her father was pardoned, set free and returned to cuba and received a hero's welcome. what does she say to her girls? >> let me start out by saying that i can never bring back her grandfather and i can never do more than express my sadness and my condolences to her. it's something that should not have happened. >> when she was told by you and others of the trade would not take place this is a swap is it

not? >> madam chair i just want to say an exchange of intelligence agents between two countries is something that this government and previous administrations have done many times. >> but at the state department not met with the family and didn't the state department time and time and time again tell her that her although hernandez would not be set free by this administration yes or no? >> to the best of my knowledge secretary kerry said to us that such a swap would not take place. a swap for allen gross would not take place. we affirm that we did not do. >> just call it something else. >> we don't believe that's what took place. >> the families under the impression because you gave it to them but that exchange would not take place that her ardo

hernandez would serve the complete sentence. did you get that impression at any time? >> certainly i regret if the family felt additional pain because of an impression. >> and impression. that's all they had. they had a false impression that all this time you are meeting with them and while you were meeting with them you were already cooking up this swap whatever you call it that for all intensive purposes what happened was he was set free and pardoned by president obama. he was returned to cuba and given a cuba is welcome but that was impression they got it was a false impression because you were never going to do that. while you met with them. don't you feel a little bit bad that you are lying to them? >> in the first place no one who met with the family every vote -- ever lied lie to the

family about what our understanding -- herardo hernandez was in jail. >> i'm going to enjoy listening to the families when they hear that testimony coming from you. it's just pathetic. thank you and now ms. bass from california. >> thank you very much madam chair. let me just say before i begin that i find it particularly difficult to talk about cuba because i want to acknowledge the experiences and the family situations of my colleagues mr. sires and ms. ros-lehtinen. but you know to talk about and understand and acknowledge what your families went through i understand. i do though support changing our relations with the island and one of the things that i have always felt is as american i

want to be able to travel anywhere in the world and i did recently go to cuba specifically looking at a drug that the cubans have invented for diabetes. i want to talk about that in a minute. i have a couple of questions. i know this april there is a summit of the americas and wanted to know what the reaction has been from the international community about cuba's participation and other world leaders regarding this policy change. >> congresswoman we have really seen universally from the hemisphere and those participating in the summit that they strongly support the policy that they think it changes the whole dynamic in the hemisphere from the united states on other objectives that we have high priorities for us. the president of columbia called it historic and it changes the

entire debate. a debate. the president from brazil they feel strongly that the policy of isolating cuba was not the right one. we obviously disagree with them for many years but we found that was isolating us in conversations and impeding our ability to have conversations on human rights and democracy not just in cuba because they would not really engage on that issue but also our ability to engage with them on human rights and hypocrisy issues broadly speaking throughout the hemisphere. we know that this is a concern and other countries in the hemisphere. >> about the trip that i mentioned recently because it was a congressional diabetes caucus and specifically because in cuba they have developed a drug that's called -- and it's basically a drug that reduces

the need for amputation in diabetics. as i understand it and i think my question is directed to mr. smith as i understand this drug has been approved for clinical trials but because of our policy is not approved to be marketed in the u.s. which means a company is not going to invest in a clinical trial if they cannot market it. i'm wondering if the changes that have been made in the law would allow for this and basically what the cubans are reporting but we obviously haven't tested to see if it's correct they have been able to reduce the need for amputation by 70% and we have tens of thousands of people in the united states who are diabetic who wind up losing a limb or their feeds because of diabetes. are you aware of what i'm talking about? >> i am. nothing changes are policy with respect to those types of drugs but they are not prohibited from

coming to the united states flat out. those companies can apply for specific license. we have a long history of evaluating those license applications. we received an ever further into other agencies in the government including the state department drug administration and we evaluate whether we import additional activity with respect to those drugs and then grant a specific license. >> the other pressure that i feel coming from california is from the agricultural industries and i'm wondering if the policy changes would lead to our ability to export. they're there a number of companies in california that are interested in exporting agricultural goods as well as livestock. >> what we have heard of her time is even though there are certain categories and transactions that have been authorized including agricultural products we have heard from exporters and many members of congress that her

previous financing rules didn't help the situation and didn't help them to be competitive with their counterparts in other countries. so we made a change to provisions in a statute that deals with the term cash in advance and basically we have made it more advantageous for u.s. exporters to export their products. this is what they they have been asking for to make them more competitive and what many members of congress have been asking us to do. >> thank you so much ms. bass. we will go to judge poe. >> let me start with the presumption that cuba is a violator of human rights. i think we all know that. especially the folks in cuba the policy of the president i think, i don't want to go into the issue of whether with or without

congress approval the president makes a decision. i want to touch on one issue that i have a question about. what is the purpose of the current u.s. policy or cuba? do we basically have no contact with them and we don't trade with them generally so the policy we have been talking about that has been implemented for 50 something years what is the purpose? what is the goal of the policy? >> you mean the previous policy? >> the previous policy obtained by the president tweaked a little bit. >> the goal of the previous policy was via isolation of cuba and keeping our distance from the government that we would hope to bring about changes in the regime and simultaneously we would hope to empower the cuban people to be able to make that

change. >> change the regime? change communism, change what? >> certainly change their behavior towards their own citizens. >> so that's our goal so cuba inherently changes the treatment of cuban citizens? >> certainly -- the. >> i'm not trying to catch you on semantics. the goal is to do this so cuban trade -- people are treated like they should be? >> in terms of international human rights standards and that sort of thing yes. >> would you say that has not worked? 50 years doing something and if it doesn't change that policy or goal has not been achieved because the cubans are treated better than i ever have been. >> i believe so, yes sir. >> let me ask you this. is our goal ever to do what

relationship whatever that may be in the future, is that for the americans benefit or cuba's benefits? as we look at changes toward cuba is this because we want to help american businesses for example or for americans to be able to travel. is that the goal that we are moving to or goal that what is the best for the cubans? >> our goal is to do what is in our national interest and to help the cuban people to be able to do what they wish to be able to make their own decisions. >> so it would be both. >> i would say the first priority would be to do what is in our national interest which includes our core values of democracy and universal human rights. >> okay. what our policy has anything to do with healthy trade from the united states? >> certainly. >> let me give you an example.

i'm from texas and we represent not as many as we used to put a lot of rice farmers and when i got elected to congress i thought that rice came in a box but i learned a lot about the rise through there as long grain and short grain into seasons and all that stuff and historically texas rice farmers traded internationally with iran, iraq and cuba. you can see that hasn't worked out so well. they want to trade long grain rice to cuba and the cubans want to buy long grain rice. they want california short grain rice. set aside all the other issues would that not be in the best interest of the united states and american exporters that we

would facilitate trade with you? >> you are going to get me into some trouble because i can't set aside all the other issues that if i really put it in a vacuum it would be in our interest so we always do those things in a vacuum. >> i understand that. what i'm saying is having this barrier of trade hurts americans. i don't know about the cubans. they get their rise from vietnam vietnam. i'm out of time. i have some other questions that i would like to submit for the record. >> without objection. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you judge pirro and we will go to mr. sweeney from rhode island. >> thank you madam chair and thank you to the witnesses. i too want to begin by balancing the experiences and passionate leadership on cuban-american relations by the chairwoman

ros-lehtinen and mr. sires and i thank you for being so open with your experiences to the committee pretty think it adds to our understanding of these complicated issues. all members of this committee are equally committed to helping the cuban people achieve freedom and democracy and a difference in opinion is what the best strategy for bringing that about. i think the witnesses for being here today and i expect he will continue to keep congress informed throughout these discussions with the cuban government. i am hopeful and i think most americans are hopeful that the president can engage in real and substantive negotiations with the cuban government and will pass than united states invented the cuban people. like most americans i remain deeply concerned about the long records of human rights abuses that have been caused at the hands of the cayman dictate --

cuban dictatorship. while our current policy brings about change cuba as we update our policy or think we have to make sure we are doing it in a measured comprehensive and thoughtful way that aligns with the current reality. my hope is that the president efforts are met with honest engagement by the cuban government for more open free and tolerant society for the cuban people. three questions in a fight you to respond. the first is there has been a lot of talk about what the neighbors are allies in the region have identified a problem with it cuban u.s. policy so what is really the best way we can engage some of these partners in the region who now can point to a change in policy to use them in a way to help bring about liberties and democracy in cuba that we all want to? what's the strategy for effectively engaging others in the region to be partners in

this work now but the policy has begun to change? the second is how can we as a congress best advance this issue of human rights? this continues to be a very serious issue. how do we play world in enforcing real progress in helping with the human rights issue and finally to build on mr. sires question how do we ensure that this economic engagement that is intended here intended to support the cuban people does not instead fortified the government at this very critical time? how do we protect against unintended consequence when we think we are helping entrepreneurs in the private sector strengthened but at the same time and affect helping the government while others are

beginning to retract some of their support. >> thank you. a couple of things. on engaging our allies there are a couple of thoughts i have about that. one is that all of the countries in the region as well as our european allies and others many of them were hesitant if not outright refused to engage with many of the democracy activists for years. i am very optimistic not having seen concrete results already that they have lost that fear with their change in policy. i think that's usually important. the rhetoric outside the country's important in dialogue but engaging with these activists and supporting them on the island i think is just as important. these people are often accused of being -- and i think others need to embrace them openly and talk and engage with them and hear from them.

we are all saying that to them. the other thing is in terms of congress i hope as many as possible will have real congressional delegations that will go to the island and see in cuba civil society and that includes in the arts, and the democracy area as well as entrepreneurs and hearing from the ones that i heard from how they are trying to keep those funds from going to the cuban government but how they believe they are making their own way independently even if some of those funds are going to the cuban government. i think the psychology of those entrepreneurs is breaking away from the states that is worth that price. the cuban government went through the period of a decline in the soviet union were dropped by -- gdp by 30% and they survived. i think it's important to support those. >> thank you so much.

we turned to mr. salmon of arizona. >> thank you. ms. jacobsen when specifically and i'm looking for a date did he find out about the white house cuban negotiations in the context of the president's announcement? >> what i can tell you representative salmon is that i was aware from throughout that the nsc and the white house was undertaking efforts with allen gross because we were working on the gross case with the family. >> understand that the winnakee find out specifically about the negotiations going on for this past year? what date did you find out about those? >> it was about six months before the announcement that i knew more of the content. >> when did you find out about the announcement itself?

>> when the actual date of the announcement was decided i knew about it. >> you find out that she found out simultaneously to the announcement being made? >> no, no, no as that was being decided i knew about that. in other words they knew about the decision to announce the new policy about six weeks as it was being decided before and so the date of the announcement i knew about as that was being decided at the white house. >> okay. can you tell me what resources what u.s. resources were used to ensure that sub -- gerardo hernandez could artificially inseminate his wife? what resources do you have for that? >> what i can tell you on that is that we have come the state department from my perspective

has always facilitated the visit of his wife to the prison in california when he was incarcerated. so those were the resources that we expended in terms of her visit. >> by transferring and i understand that he was able to artificially inseminate his wife and that was done facilitated by the u.s. government. >> beyond their efforts to facilitate her visit the rest was done by the department of justice and i would have to defer to the department of justice. >> i would like to know that but i think it's incredulous that a u.s. priority would be to make sure that he fathered a child while he was in incarceration. i will wait for the answer on that. the last question the secret negotiations went on for over a year and reportedly consisted of seven meetings so when you went to havana last month the cubans

made it clear they would not allow it diplomat to speak to dissidents in an organization was not possible without the return of our naval base in guantánamo bay as well as other nonstarters that we talked about today. so what did we really accomplish other than a t-shirt that i had meetings for a year ago i got was this t-shirt. >> i guess i would start out by saying we got allen gross home and you know that but beyond that the beginning of this process of normalization starts with diplomatic relations which is only the first part. normalization will take years and we made it very clear that it includes things like property claims which has to be part of this discussion judgments against the cuban government which has been adjudicated in u.s. court which has to be part of it. that's a much longer process and

we have not ceded to anything things. >> and i don't expect that we will acquiesce to any of those things. >> at the start of the process. >> understand that what was your response when they said we are not going to do anything on normalization? >> what they meant by normalization is the end of the year-long process not restoration of diplomatic relations which is the first part. i'm presuming that they mean they won't have full normalization but they will have restoration of diplomatic relations. smack thank you. i yield back my time. >> thank you very much. mr. connolly of virginia's recognize. >> i thank the chair. ms. jacobsen i believe in politics and diplomacy and a very simple adage don't give it away for nothing.

i'm very troubled by the abrupt change is precisely a moment where we actually have leverage. for 50 years one could argue the castro brothers have loved policy because it's helped keep them in power fair enough but that was then and this is now think a change. they're hurting. the economy is hurting. their oil supplier is hurting and if they look out to the future it's very difficult to see a viable cuban economy without major change including a change in their relationship with us. now i take your point about diplomatic exchange and i put that aside. but the liberalization of trade and tourism and indeed the

person's call to begin the process of dismantling the embargo that has been in place for half a century i need to understand what we got in return. where's the reciprocity? why wouldn't the united states good -- use its leverage with respect human rights and press freedoms and with respect to religious freedoms with respect to political dissidents? i am reading from state department personnel dancer that the god was we are not doing that. that's shocking and i think a disappointment to many that we wouldn't use the leverage we finally have too some good point. i wonder if you would address that because i think we have squandered the leverage. >> first i want to start out by saying what liberalization there has been in regulations and my colleagues would certainly specify in all of this is very

specific and i think mr. smith repeatedly noted that most transactions still remain prohibited. >> if i may, fair enough but the president -- promised the presence that explicitly we are going to start the process of dismantling the embargo. the cubans see promise not just here now but a pathway towards the dismantlement of the policy in place for half a century. >> the cubans keep demanding this in part because it still there. and they know this is not a big liberalization yet. and the most important thing that we have made clear clear to them as we have not let up on cumin -- human rights. if you want to be transactional but the cuban government the problem with that is that they

won't trade for anything. and we will end up still not helping the cuban people. the goal of these policies is not to do something that relies on the cuban government agreeing to give the something for the human rights concession. we want to try and go directly to the cuban people. now it's true they may not like the telecommunications companies or more internet access that what has been news in oliver cuban would every cuban knows as we are starting relations and the bogeyman of the u.s. being their problem is no longer it's no longer credible. >> again and my time is limited i appreciate that and i wouldn't deny there are lots of people who see lots of hope in what has now been started but my question

is more specific. what is the reciprocity? what did we get out of this other than aspirations that things will get better with this change because they weren't getting better as the old regime? i can't think of a single thing but in terms of a policy shift, a concession. i can't think of a single one. >> i believe that we also will get some things that matter in opening our embassy and hopefully the ability to travel throughout the country and support more people. we can't move outside of havana right now. >> that is what you hope to negotiate. >> that is necessary for opening an embassy. that part of it. i also think we will have all of these dialogs that they want to have for cooperation.

that will be part of those concessions as well. it is to come i agree. >> badham chairman nye no my time is up but i want to underline i always make the mistake in foreign-policy to give it away for nothing. >> thank you mr. connolly and now we turn to mr. duncan they chairman of the subcommittee on -- >> trade in lifting sanctions is seen as a cure-all foreign-policy with regard to oppressive regimes like cuba. in light of the sanctions in venezuela the same week in cuba is this an indication that we may see similar normalize relations with other oppressive regimes? >> the sanctions that were imposed of -- on venezuela this past week were additional sanctions. >> the same week as the president started normalizing relations in cuba and sanctions on venezuela. >> of you are talking about the

signing of the legislation passed by congress that includes visa sanctions and asset thesis. >> are we going to see more normalization center they're going to be other surprises? >> i can't speak out of my region but i don't expect to see any surprises on venezuela. we have been consulting on that and i expect to continue and any surprises on cuba will continue to consult on that. >> i think you are surprised over the cuba talks and you weren't read into it until late in the discussion but let's move on. many the people that i speak with about this policy shift on cuba in congress talk about the point to the freedom afforded americans to travel to cuba. the same freedom of travel is the same freedom of travel afforded to the cuban people to

travel to united states should all american travelers really stay with his family traveled they stay in hotels by the cuban military and the cuban constitution requires commerce to be controlled by the state so how does increasing commerce with the castro monopoly helped the future? >> let me start out by saying on travel by cubans we are looking at the carefully since a 2013 decision by the cuban government to allow more people to travel. you have been able to have dissidents here to speak in front of this house who have never been able to before but it's by far not good enough. there still people who can't travel and they should be able to. they should all be able to travel freely. that be say on the trade portion i will go back to what i said. we understand there will be some benefits to the cuban government. we really to believe again because of the people we have talked to who are entrepreneurs

because of activism or because a part of this -- artists are some of the small agricultural growth that they will benefit more than the government will. if we are able to implement these regulations and get them the equipment they need that the government will provide. >> they will benefit from an economic transaction that i will give you that, we will see but how about other freedoms? what was negotiated and thus, economic freedom freedom of assembly and protest and i point to the testimony yesterday and i think chris smith talk about it but the truth is the government of cuba represses are right to freedom of religion and association so we go out to participate in religious activities on sundays. they government is a pressing activist gathering together to discuss issues that are important on so protesting against a repressive government

is -- so i i asked us what is u.s. bartering exchange for this policy shift other than allen gross's release that benefits the cuban people and gives them more freedom? i want this to be about the cuban people and if we are truly going to pursue a policy to normalize relations about to be about the cuban people and not the castro regime and the castro regime is the only thing that i think benefits from this that i don't see where private property rights and you mentioned that earlier and i think i will ask a question of private property rights and claims by american cubans and americans and cuban people in general that property was nationalized by the federal government. how are we going to address that that? i think the private property rights are so important and left out of this discussion you and i talked about this the other day. i think that is critical. i'd like you to talk about the freedoms for the american people in the remaining 20 seconds that

i have. >> thank you mr. chairman and i agree with you that all of those things are what we are seeking and i think we all agreed that's the goal here. >> tell me how does this policy get us to the school? >> number one by having a lot more people able to work with us on it from outside of cuba than ever before. we were alone. we were not joined by anyone else. we are more effective with eliza number two we believe there were no concessions here. some of these things are things that we are doing that deeply worried the cuban government because they may not be able to control them. we don't believe anything we did on december 17 that the president and secretary have said were concessions to the government. >> my time is up but the concessions for the cuban people are -- and i yield back. >> now we yield to mr. lowenthal of california. >> thank you mr. chairman i would like to preface my remarks by saying i have been touched

listening to the experiences of those that have been the most affected by the repressive regime and join with congressman cicilline and congresswoman bass in saying that i have been touched by their testimony and congressman sires and ros-lehtinen to talk about their families and some of the impacts but having said that i am very supportive of our re-engagement and a restoration of diplomatic relations. i say that not because i support many of the repressive issues but i say that as someone who represents one of the largest if not the largest vietnamese american communities in the united states. people who escaped intolerable situations who i believe are certainly very against the existing regime in vietnam have

benefited by having greater ability to communicate the sum of their concerns and they have had it by having the u.s. ambassador to vietnam to a unity which is not at all supportive of the government didn't really have a dialogue and be able to express some other concerns. i see that as a very positive step. my question actually going forward will there be a strategy to reach out to the cuban american community in the united states who have been suffering a great deal and as my first question. >> absolutely sir. we have begun to do that knowing that the people in that community are diverse as well and seeing activists within cuba among the four points they could agree on was the cuban diaspora has to be taken into consideration. >> that so important and i

really think it's very important and i also would like to know what we see as we move forward. there's more trade in more tourism how we are going to deal with many of those tourists going back to cuba and speaking out against their government and we talked about some of those issues. >> we certainly consider that in terms of cubans coming to the united states and when that travel policy was liberalized there is anon on enormous concern among activists that they spoke freely they either wouldn't be able to go home perhaps or if they went on they wouldn't be able to travel again. the fact that some of them have now been able to travel repeatedly is a good sign but everyone still is fearful. and we have raised that issue. >> does anyone else have any issues or want to respond to some of the issues as the policies began to change?

what do you see as some of the consequences? i am wanting to move forward. where do we go from here? where d.c. things we need to look at as the policy has changed? >> certainly the treasury's doing a lot of outreach in american public and then secondly we will be watching carefully to see how they play out in practice. 15% of the cuban population private sector are looking to grow these opportunities so that something will certainly look at carefully. >> i would echo those comments. implementation is what we will be looking out over the next few months and years actually to see what the effects are and what we need to do. >> is a member also because of course land my own concerns and also the concerns of the communities i represent i have

been an active member of the tom lantos human rights commission. i have adopted prisoners of conscience in vietnam. i have put pressure on the vietnamese government to release some of these prisoners. i would like to see some of the same efforts increase as we go forward with the change in policies in cuba. thank you and i yield back. >> thank you mr. lowenthal and we go to mr. brooks of alabama. >> thank you madam chairman. i believe that american policies should be consistent throughout the globe as best as we can do so and by way of example i would like to make a quick comparison between cuba and saudi arabia looking at some of the similarities between the countries and some of the differences and also that

different ways in which each is treated by the united states government. on trade american cuban trade is very limited as we all know less than $500 million per year and exports by america to cuba by the american saudi trade is very robust roughly $80 billion per year perhaps higher. on travel travel to cuba is limited by the united states government. saudi arabia quite the opposite. embassies and diplomatic interactions. saudi arabia we have and embassies of significant diplomatic -- and in cuba we have numbers and little to no diplomatic interaction. i could go on and on but i think it's fair to say the united states treats cuba substantially differently than saudi arabia. as i listened to the witnesses and member comments concerning

cuba and why cuba must be treated differently i can't help but emphasize some of the similarities and differences that have been pointed out. on the issue of freedom of religion as bad as cuba may be and we have her comments as to how bad it is the question question is to saudi arabia worst? one member and the one religious observance requires cuban government consent get given saudi arabia open worshiped by christians is a criminal offense. if a the muslim dares question whether islam is the true religion he is severely punished. badawi being a recent example facing 1000 lashes and six to 10 years in prison assuming of course that the lashing does not kill him. on the issue of dictatorial government one would be hard-pressed to determine which family government that of cuba's or the saudis is more dictatorial and i think you can have a robust debate concerning

that issue. on the issue of terrorism bearing in mind that 15 to 19 9/11 terrorists were saudis and also bearing in mind that so much terrorism funding originates in saudi arabia and feign it -- fairness opposed by the assad regime -- assad regime but a lot of the money comes from a country saudi arabia. one could have a lively debate concerning which country poses a greater threat to world peace. given some of the similarities and also some differences with saudi arabia being treated by the united states of america what factors in your mind justify treating cuba so much worse than saudi arabia that supports the fifth-year policy that the united states has had with respect to cuba? >> thank you. congressman i think our own few

has been pretty clearly laid out by the president and the secretary certainly made a number of comments that we believe that cuba not on its merits necessarily in terms of its behavior but on the effectiveness of policy arguments the efficiency and what is in our national interest to merit a change in that policy that was announced in december. i can't necessarily make that comparison between saudi arabia and cuba but i will say that we believe very strongly that the values and the ideals of the united states need to be pursued aggressively all over the world and that they are best pursued and you could expect this from a diplomat at the state department department, diplomatic relations and having empathy gosar concessions in kits.

we do them effectively when we have faith presents and that's why let's have a presence in cuba. >> i am running short of time. america is always faced with the difficult choice that of one hand we can be open hoping that our relations with this country will surely cause them to accept the freedom that we cherish in america where we can be very restrictive as we have been in cuba and north korea and other nations in hopes that the punishment will be sufficient. what do you think long-term is best for cuba? >> i think we are most effective when i have allies with us and we were alone so i believe the openness with allies to the cuban people and not the cuban government will be affected. >> the gentleman's time has expired and mr. deutsch is recognized. >> thank you for working so quickly to ensure the committee was able to hear from a district on the policy shifts.

the administration's announcement has a tremendous impact in the me first say in the immediate term i have serious concerns about the castro regime's continuing -- as many my colleagues have brought up today and i hope that we expect and demand more of them. the administration's announcement one of the major newspapers publish an in-depth feature called plundering america which expose a way which underground criminal networks have exploited u.s. policy toward cuba. madam chairman denies its open its doors to the cuban people so they could have a better life free from the oppressive castro regime and the overwhelming majority of those who come here have made it an incredible contribution to this country and become a deep fabric of our society. great examples we have here on this panel are colleagues and my friends. policies put in place to ensure that those who sought refuge in the u.s. would still be able to see their families or send remittances are being taken

advantage of by small binaries for criminal gain. officials engaged in organized criminal activity have turned her humanitarian policy into an underground criminal enterprise by using their ability to return to and from cuba to engage in illicit fraud activities particularly the report noted medicare fraud and transporting large sums of cash back to the island and evading arrest from the cuban regime as that they will not exit ip switches. they have turned her open door policy into a revolving door enabling and i quote groups from to interrupt american businesses and taxpayers of more than $2 billion over two decades end quote critic as administration rebalances his relationship with cuba hope we are not ignoring criminal activity that casters have turned a blind eye to at best and we need to know what extent the regime for people connected to the regime have or will continue to be involved in these illegal crime rates? assistant secretary jacobs and i'd like to know if your initial

round of talks with cuba included discussion of extradition of fugitives from cuba and if not when and how will this issue be raised? >> thank you congressman and it certainly did include the discussion of fugitives. it did not specifically include the question of extradition. as you know we have a very old extradition treaty that has not been used in many years. i have no idea whether we will get back up eventually to actually using it but it certainly includes the question of fugitives and the desire to have much more in depth conversation about law enforcement and fugitive issues in the future. >> can you elaborate a bit? theater -- extradition you referred refer to is the situation we have now but in the talks how did they talks focus? >> i just want to be clear the morning of the talks on the diplomatic restoration. the afternoon talks were on a whole series of subjects on which we are going to have

experts who are not may have much more substantive conversations about what we want and that is one of the subjects. >> and what will be the context of those discussions and when will they take place? >> we are going to try to set this up as quickly as possible. part of that conversation began in the migration talks because we take with us are lawyers and the department of justice and we talk about fugitives in the context of the migration talks but we have actually begun that one. we will have a separate conversation i'm unfortunate fugitives basically as we can set these up into time schedule. the cubans are a little bit overwhelmed by her new wanting to have dialogue on subjects. ..

click the details the think their with they're primary

equity in the statutes that would be involved reinforce the section was and very little from what i've seen impact regulations we would enforce. >> thank you. the gentleman's time has expired. >> sec. jacobson you certainly did not make concessions to the cuban government would later in your answers you conceded the increased economic activity will have some benefit to the cuban government. that is a concession, is it not? >> it is a benefit. >> especially considering they're two main patrons venezuela and russia are reeling with the change in world oil prices and the castro government very much wants any type of patronage they can get. money that money that goes into that country we will be controlled by the government

if you are going to argue differently, why is it that we are really the only country that has these restrictions. open relations how come with all of those ties the cuban people have not benefited? you said in your testimony that the cuban people are not better off. my question is, if the other policies of all the other countries are so good, good why haven't the cuban people benefited? >> part of the problem in terms of actual economic policy is that they have not modernized they're system, opened her system, made of foreign investment while. >> and they said that they are not going to change. this is a victory a victory for the cuban revolution and we are not going to change. i don't see where you get that the people of cuba will benefit more than the regime

until there is a change i think the benefits will be bottled up at the top. >> remittances go to the cuban people. in addition 11 of the reasons they have not rushed to implement the telecommunications provisions or the internet provisions, they provisions, they have been wary of this because they no full well they probably will not be able to control it and the benefits may well reach the cuban people. >> let me ask you this, when you took your trip were you given access to the places where political prisoners are being held? >> i was not. >> is their any discussion the administration trying to get property returned that was confiscated and american citizens when castro took power? >> we made clear in the

conversations that the issue of property has to be part of normalization. >> what was they're response? >> they agreed it has to be part of the conversation and responded that they had issues they wanted to raise about losses under the embargo. >> one of the issues, gitmo issues, gitmo, can you categorically state on january 20, 2017 at 12:00 p.m. that it we will still be under us control? >> i am certain that guantánamo will still be a us-based but i cannot tell you a hypothetical about what may be part of normalization talks. it is not on the table for us and i cannot envision that. i am not a high enough ranking person to no whether it could be in the future. >> i am just talking about

over the next two years of this administration. >> i cannot envision that. >> cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism. the government has to provide assurances that they we will support international terrorism. has the cuban government provided those assurances? >> cuba has repeatedly rejected international terrorism, and we are in the process right now as we review this of looking at statements and evaluating whether they have or that they we will. >> i am concerned to me that is a declaration to the contrary does the administration believe the president has the authority to unilaterally lift the embargo? >> clearly not overhead would not have and encouraged the debate in congress.

>> i think i think it is important to get this on the record. the statute is clear about what has to happen and there is no evidence that any of those criteria have been met. >> i'm sorry, i waiver? >> any type of restrictions that can be waived retires their are certain restrictions that are lifted >> to act to lift the embargo that the president was clear he wants to be debated in congress. >> the gentleman's time has expired. mr. castro of texas. >> i have been moved by the testimony and also my colleague cuban-american and many, particularly the the more senior generation lost family members,

property, they're livelihoods in they're country and for many years much of our foreign policy was in great deference to that fact. when you here the stories it is understandable. i think i think with the president's change in normalization of diplomatic relations the power of american culture and our technology and democracy will ultimately win out and in many ways was the start of a new revolution. i see this as positioning the united states for when they are gone. how does it position our country once these books are no longer in power? >> thank you. this is the question. one of the critical things

is the next generation of activists, leaders. one of the most important things is how we work with the current human rights activists and leaders the new entrepreneurs and artists. how do we encourage them. performance art and asked cubans to speak openly 300 artists wrote in support it is novel and important. >> true. in in places like china they cannot access social media but have access.

>> it has to be changed by congress. we have no plans to request such a change. >> thank you. >> i yield back. >> thank you madam chair. it is interesting i feel often if something has not been working for 50 years you should look at changing it but know one seems to go directly to the issue except some of the comments i have i have heard today about how nothing has changed within the country. i am interested in a couple

of things. the president brokered policy by empowering white house aides to conduct secret negotiations. i think it is probably ms. jacobsen because at some time you were brought in and made aware what happened because that moment in time with when the president decided to appoint these negotiations in secret and why? why did he break from policy? >> i cannot answer that question on behalf of the president. what i can tell you is that one of the two people engaged in those discussions is a foreign service officer on loan to the white house one of our

foremost experts on july having served their and on the cuban issue at the state department. >> but you don't no what suddenly sparked now is the time this has to happen? >> i think their has long been a concern within the administration that the policy was not effective in empowering the cuban people. >> let me ask you this then ms. jacobson. many of the questions -- i heard i heard from representative connelly and others, what did we get. if i understand your testimony today the secret negotiations included, for instance, discussions about the brutalization of families in other words how you compensate families for personal was during the castro takeover and cents and there has been a promise that would be part of the negotiations before they're we will be a proposal to dismantle the embargo. >> what has to be part of

full normalization of relations that is making a relationship with cuba look like every other normal one -- and that is the full range of things, not just diplomatic relations -- is a process and resolution of this long-standing issue of claims which the foreign claims settlement commission's has in judgment >> and i wanted on the record so i understand because you separated between diplomacy and complete normalization which would be lifting the embargo and things the president says he cannot do as the executive arm of congress. we talk about diplomacy opening an embassy hopefully getting to travel across the island which right now has not been assured, that is diplomacy. their are a few few things the administration can do without congressional approval. the next step, there has been a promise that they're

we will be as part of any agreement moving forward any final agreement, and understanding as to how these families will be compensated for the personal and property loss. is that correct? >> their will be a process with the cuban government to come to resolution of those issues. >> so you may not require they be reimbursed or compensated for loss? >> i think in all of these kinds of cases -- and i will ask my colleagues if they have comments but it may be the department of justice that is better placed to answer this -- it has to be mutually agreed between two countries. >> i understand, but you lead us to believe, at least to me, these were issues that were raised and have been discussed and would lead me to believe they're

are things that we will be required if congress is ultimately going to approve a full normalization. >> right which means a satisfactory resolution which means we must be satisfied,, but the cuban government will have to be satisfied, to. >> and that would include harboring of murderers and thieves and criminals by the castro regime? >> the question of fugitives if you mean the question of fugitives -- >> i added it. you put all of this together today, and i see my time is running out. you made it sound as though these will be necessary requirements to a final agreement. i final agreement. i believe my time has expired, madam chair. >> thank you. the gentleman from florida. >> thank you for coming today. i would like to ask a question or two about this deal's impact on religious freedom in cuba. i represent southwest florida. 94 percent of the jewish folks left after the revolution some came to my

district, so this is a question, i'm sure, is on a lot of they're minds of those that remain that are family members. there are also other religious folks that have been persecuted in cuba, christians. we don't talk a lot about mormons, but they're are two mormon branches, i understand, in cuba and other religious minorities as well. i wonder about the impact of this deal of tolerance for religion in general. and will and will missionaries and other folks from different sex be allowed to go and help they're brothers and sisters >> i think it is important, congressman the regulations -- and i can let my colleagues -- this expands the ability of religious groups because what we have

done is make religious missions part of religious opportunity general license and so we are hoping that they're are more religious groups that are able to go and see counterparts in cuba and have that interaction. in terms of the tolerance for religious groups in cuba, i hope they're we will be an impact certainly by having the brethren. i i visit the jewish community every time i go to cuba and visited this time with the church. and there was recently obviously the announcement of the knew church to be built, a new catholic church to be built but it is an important part of what we are hoping to stimulate as part of civil society. >> i could just add to that that in the past many

americans had to come and seek what is called a specific license to be able to go to cuba to engage in religious activities, and one of the changes we made was to authorize that in our regulations which means people may now go for religious activities, for religious purposes without coming to this government agency to seek approval 1st. >> and their are two pieces on our side. one for those trips generally authorized for religious purposes the things travelers want to be taking with them can be done under regulation rather than waiting for specific authorization and another peace allows building materials to be allowed for allowed, for example building of churches, again without individual authorization. >> i hope we we will have measurable sphere. i am always worried about bait and switch infusing some other aspect of the law to get around things that are uncomfortable.

i personally think it is hard to have a meaningful life for a lot of folks if they don't have a meaningful religious experience. i hope the administration will follow up to where we actually see meaningful opening, meaningful religious awakening of the island for so many that wanted. >> thank you, sir. >> i have have know more to say. i yield back. >> the gentleman from texas. >> i apologize. let me ask you a couple a couple of quick questions. we will you be okay while i question her? >> yes, sir. >> thank you very much. ms. jacobson, i appreciate your professionalism and demeanor and attitude. you you have done a good job, and i appreciate that. of the state and treasury regulations now fully and

compliance with the intent of congress, ms. jacobson, when it passed the trade sanctions reform and export sanctions act of 2,000. >> yes sir, i believe they are. >> you believe they are? going forward, and i understand you said the president wants the dialogue in congress, and i appreciate my colleague from texas' comments about moving forward past the current regime. that was an interesting take going forward, we will the egg trade -- and i have rice farmers and texas taxes in my district who are interested in the trade part of this. will the trade of act products be able to be conducted without a lot of input and some would say interference from the administration? >> i think that is a great

question. i may defer to my colleague out some of this. >> they will feel good about that. >> they will, and will, and it will give me a chance to have a little bit of water. >> mr. smith. >> we made changes in the current regulations that changed the terms to what the act exporters requested, and requested, and so it should be easier for them to send -- >> without a lot of red tape. >> without requirements. >> any input? >> one thing we were not able to address was the requirement that they're be a license that is no more restrictive. that stays in place. >> a 12 day process. >> if someone wants to make and export. yes or no in 12 days. >> that other than changing the cash and handle what other changes do you know? anybody.

>> when you say other than -- >> that would give us other opportunities for act products in particular. >> we allowed us banks to establish corresponding accounts and cuban banks and what helps with that is if you want an american exporter ticket payment from the cuban exporter and has to go through a 3rd country. under this rule they can pay directly and can be made faster and easier and make exporters more competitive. >> i think also the travel general license makes it easier for people who want to investigate business opportunities without waiting for a license. >> in many of the cases before they would have to come to seek a specific a specific license. now they do not have to for a variety of activities they would use associated with

trade like marketing and export, delivery. >> that is an improvement. the dry foot wet foot policy, tell me what that is. >> the cuban adjustment act allows that cuban citizens who arrive on us soil are permitted to adjust they're status and remain whereas those who may be interdicted by the coast guard, if they have no protection concerns may be returned. >> that is what i figured. that is all my questions and i thank you for your testimony. >> thank you. we will now go to a 2nd round of questions. the chair recognizes herself the foreign claims commission has found their are almost 6,000 us claims that are judged to be qualified for compensation

by the castro dictatorship. the adjudicated value by adding at 6 percent simple interest according to this commission makes the total principal value of american claims to over $8 billion today. i do not think the state department will enforce by investigating trafficking and confiscated us property nor enable us property owners to secure compensation for the unauthorized use of property subject to the claim. do you think that you will or won't? and i worry the administration will use influence to go even further will we try to get cuba into the world bank, imf, idb, other multilateral development banks banks, or will we prevent any assistance, financing, or

benefit from these institutions and tell us property claims have been resolved to the satisfaction of american owners? lastly if you could tell us the three conditions according to us law for the embargo to be lifted. and i know the president is going to present us legislation to free up the embargo. what of those three conditions have been met that would satisfy the embargo justified -- justify the embargo being lifted? first, on the claims, what we we will do if we help cuba get into these organizations and then the three conditions. >> let me start off by saying i have been cognizant of the importance of resolutions of the claims issues and judgments from the beginning of this process.

it it is it is important that those be resolved. the state department as well as other agencies the justice department, congress foreign claims settlement act it to adjudicate and assign value to claims we believe strongly that has to be part of future conversations over the next two years, however long normalization may take. of. those are extremely difficult to have with any foreign government but we intend to pursue that as part of our discussion. i raised that in the very 1st conversation knowing that we would not talk about it that they deeply but it must be part of full normalization. we feel that we are not in a position right now where cuba is eligible for

becoming a member -- >> do you foresee right now -- >> i think we all hope for the day when there would be logical free and economic system but i do not know exactly at what time. we also hope that sometime in the future they may ask for help to open they're system. they are not right now. >> just as we said we would not swap spies and did. a rose by any other name. will we be advocating for the inclusion of cuba in these international organizations that would allow to give it credit to continue the oppression of its people? >> we are not advocating, but we want to make sure at

some time it may be useful to have organizations like the imf not give them help but help them open they're economy. >> because we are keeping these institutions from opening the economy. >> no. >> anyway. [inaudible conversations] >> what are the three conditions that would allow the lifting of the embargo and what of those have been met? >> i'm sorry i do not have them in front of me. >> i hope when you negotiate with the castro regime you keep in mind us law the overtime act. the president is calling for the lifting of the embargo. please go and check that out. that is us law.

with that their is a follow-up question. >> i believe i believe that good leaders require all stakeholders to be taken into account. companies go off track when they only think of shareholders and in government it is more important we take it into account and consult. this felt like a sad decision because it seems to bypass a normal conversation with respect to cuba, stakeholders in our country family members and others that got surprised. i kind i kind of want to be on the record on that this does not -- this decision does not feel fair because the lack of process we went through to get hear surprising people that have stakes in the game.

i want to be on the record on that and it makes your job more difficult i cannot imagine surprising folks that work for me bypassing them and cutting a deal with somebody without them knowing it. it feels like that undercuts your authority in the future maybe you see that differently, but i don't know how that is not the case. thank you for hanging in their. i think your job has gotten tougher, tougher, not easier, and i want to express my appreciation for the service you do to your country even in times made more difficult and i want to say thank you for hanging in their today. it is not easy coming year. you get it from both sides. you seem to have done it with humor and hung in there and your sense of humor. for that most of all i express my appreciation. thank you.

>> yields back and i request unanimous consent to submit for the record a letter from south florida state and local officials to pres. obama to express profound disappointment over the september 17 announcement a ten-point roadmap from the people of cuba toward a real transition to democracy op ends from the strong -- -- from the former staff director of this committee and questions for the record with that, our committee is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg said today if their is one decision she could overturn it would be the citizens united case. her remarks are next on c-span2.

>> up next a conversation with supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg. she talks about her legal career as a civil rights lawyer and talks about some of the professional barriers she faced as a female lawyer after graduating from columbia law school. >> good afternoon, everyone. the excitement here is extraordinary. their were long lines. we have an overflow room

people in the front rooms with notorious rpg t-shirts and we are all gathered here to here from -- i would like a big round of applause for our extraordinary speaker justice ginsburg. [applause] [applause] >> thank you. [applause] >> the idea behind this lecture is an opportunity for graduating students to here from a giant in law as she reflects on her career and offers advice to graduating students. students. i cannot imagine a better speaker for us to be listening to. i will not go into a long introduction because it

would be completely unnecessary but it is particularly wonderful to have you hear because you are someone who is not only a great justice but a rarity among justices and historic figure even if you would have never been a judge because of your work for gender equity and also because you are such a wonderful member of this committee. we are grateful you come hear so often. two of our faculty are working on your authorized biography and of course your late husband was the most beloved member of this faculty. welcome. >> thank you. may i extend my congratulations to all of you who are graduating from this extraordinary law school. the dean was right that i

had a very close relation with the law school and i'm proud to say that the chair holder a former law clerk of mine and former dean of the columbia law school is here today visiting at georgetown. any of you who are interested should be sure you attend his classes. [laughter] >> thank you for being here. it was wonderful. we were on the stage not too long ago when he was the 1st holder of the ginsberg chair. welcome. what i i would like to do is start by talking about your career. you. brooklyn and went to cornell

i think for all of us here when did it occur to you that you wanted to be a lawyer? >> no. [laughter] >> in the ancient days i was going to college the law was not a welcoming profession for women. so my mother stressed the importance of being independent. to her that meant to be a high school history teacher. i did not think about law until at cornell i was a research assistant for a professor of constitutional law and he wanted me to be aware that our country was

going through bad times. this was the early 50s the heyday of senator joseph mccarthy who saw communists in every corner. this professor wanted me to appreciate these people who were being hauled before the house un-american activities committee for the senate internal security committee and grilled about some youth organization may have belonged to in the 30s. they were lawyers standing up for these people are reminding congress that we have a first amendment that says we can think write and speak freely without big brother telling us what is proper speech and there is the fifth amendment that protects people against self-incrimination.

so i got the idea that being a lawyer is a pretty good thing because in addition to practicing a profession you could do some good for society, make things better for other people and that made me decide that law school was the best place for me. if i had any talent that god could give me i would be a great diva. [laughter] but sadly i am a monotone. [laughter] and my grade school teachers were very firm.

not allowed to saying. [laughter] anyway, some concern for my father about my becoming a lawyer but then i married margie the week after i graduated from cornell and my family said, it's okay. she will have a man to support her. [laughter] >> you met him at cornell? >> yes. my 1st year, his 2nd year. >> how did you meet? >> because we had friends who thought we might like each other.

there was a long, cold week at cornell. [laughter] and that is how we started out. came to me. [laughter] >> and then you got married at the end of your time in college. >> marty did not have a stellar career. mainly he majored in golf and started out premed but the chemistry labs were in the afternoon and interfered with golf practice. then he switched to

government. >> i heard an interview where he talked about the fact your academic rigors were not similar. >> the last in class and i was 1st. [laughter] >> and what was law school like? their were not many women. >> nine women in my class. i entered and 56. the very 1st year harvard accepted women was 1950. their were nine of us 500 men.

the women in my class felt that they were literally on trial they divided us into four sections and we thought all eyes were on us and if we failed it would be a bad answer to the question failing not only for ourselves but all women. whether it was true or not we felt we were on display. i have a colleague of columbia law school -- and this was in the 70s. he said one day he has some regrets about expanding the enrollment of women at that time we were about 25 percent. he said in the old days if

you wanted a crisp, white answer you always call on a woman because she was prepared and would give you the answer you wanted and could go on with class but he said nowadays the women are as unprepared as the men [laughter] one of the biggest challenges we had harvard law school in those days had to teaching buildings, buildings, but only one had a women's bathroom. so bad enough use the restroom during a class, but think about exams. the remarkable thing is we never complained never thought to ask.

it was just the way things were. these pre- title seven days. sign-up sheets for summer jobs, permanent jobs for men only the same way at columbia when i transferred from harvard to columbia for my 3rd year. a wonderful placement office no one told us that we could. >> why did you transfer to columbia? >> marty stirred year of law school he had cancer days when there was no chemotherapy only a huge operation and daily radiation.

our daughter was born 14 months before i started law school so marty tried to get a job in the boston area have a great opportunity. i did not want to be a single mom and we did not no how long marty with. of course we were not going to be separated during those last years. so i went to the dean of harvard law school and said if i successfully complete my 3rd year at columbia will you give me a harvard degree. the answer was absolutely not. i thought i have the perfect rebuttal. there was a woman who had been my classmate took her 1st year of law school at the university of

pennsylvania, transferred and i said in the 2nd year with me. she will have your two and three. i will have one in three. to my colleagues who spoke here last year. every year she said ruth, we would love you to have a harvard law school degree. and marty said hold out for an honorary degree. [laughter]

only 1° from columbia. can't. can't rewrite history, but i do have an honorary degree from harvard university in 2011. [laughter] >> justice was politically done. and you were at the top of your class at harvard top of your class at columbia. what was it like looking for work? we talked about how hard it was. >> i had a tailored black suit that my ever supportive mother-in-law got from my interviews and was stunned that know one was interested only two firms called me and those two and is a not giving me an offer.

it was a wonderful profession. he was determined to give me a job in charge of clerkships and called every federal judge in the eastern district, the southern district. they were reticent. the reason was some of could overcome the fact i was a woman but none of them would be able to come in on the weekend. the result was a overcompensated. that is the way that it was.

getting the 1st job. that was hard. when you got the job you did it very well. justice o'connor tells the story about her 1st job top of her class at stanford law school and know one would hire her as a lawyer. she volunteered to work for the county attorney free for four months and at the end of that time if you think i'm worth it you can put me on the payroll. an offer you can't refuse give her a chance and if she does not succeed in a young man in her class. in and carry you through the year.

that was the character. the steak was, if you don't give her a a job i will never recommend another columbia student to you. i never knew that until years later. he had two daughters. i thought he must have thought about what he would like their opportunities to be. in those days in the southern district most judges would not hire women and the us attorney's office women were strictly forbidden in the criminal division. the the excuse for not hiring women in the criminal division was they have to deal with these tough types.

i was amazed. i said, have you seen the lawyers and legal aid lawyer representing these types? they are women. [laughter] >> and then you clerked. >> yes. >> what did you do after? >> by that time i could have gone to any number of downtown firms. in fact, i was to go to one of them one at columbia law school professor came to me and said how would you like to write a book about civil procedure in sweden. [laughter] sweden in relation to norway and denmark. [laughter] it turned out to be a wonderful opportunity in many ways.

i was 27, 28. i would go on to learn the language that i have no familiarity with something else. marty and i at i at that time had been married eight years and i had never lived alone. i wanted to no what it would be like. he was indulgent enough to take care of jane left. i left in the beginning of may. she joined me after her 1st grade was over. i have a taste of what it was like. that was my 8th year itch. [laughter]

so i spent two years. columbia had a project on international procedure and part of it was writing books about different procedural systems, part of it was providing -- revising the federal rules and title 28 to make all rules more accommodating to lawyers abroad who wanted to find evidence in the united states or process in the united states. after that the firm which marty was affiliated with this process legal group.

a columbia professor was kind of a one-person personnel office he say what is your name doing on the harvard list when you're columbia graduate? harvard list, what is he talking about. and i remember that harvard had sent the form. at that time they're were exactly 14 women in tenure-track positions in law schools across the country.

so i jumped to the wrong conclusion that said why is interested in the. the answer was it was not columbia but rutgers. i got my 1st teaching job. workers workers had an excellent civil procedure teacher and clyde ferguson. he left to become the dean of howard law school in dc. workers tried to replace him with another african-american man for having failed in that quest the next best thing was a woman.

fifty was a very good deal. you know of the state university. you have to take a cut in salary. i i expected that, but not the huge cut that it was. i asked how much. the answer was he has a wife and two children to support. so i met at the campus was

not on the books until the year after, but their was equal pay out. so the records of campus which after many years was settled. every woman got a substantial raise 6000 was about the lowest. in those days that was real money. >> and did that experience cause you to focus in on gender equality cases? >> i did not set my own agenda at all. their were two forces operating one was the

students. women students. i thought that was a pretty good idea. i went to the library and in the space of one month i read every federal decision that had ever been written involving women's rights or the lack thereof. ..