them. jonathan horn is next on booktv. he recounts robert e. lee's decision to join the confederate army and being sought by both the north and south. it's about an hour. >> it's my pleasure to introduce jonathan horn. he is an author and former white house president sure -- presidential speechmaker who spent years writing his new robert daily biography, "the man who would not be washington" congress in january of this year. jonathan has appeared as a commentator on "msnbc"." his writing has appeared in "the new york times"" "the weekly standard" and other outlets. during his time at the white house jonathan served as a speechwriter and special

assistant to president george bush graduate of yale university. [applause] >> thank you so much for that love and -- lovely introduction judy. as you mention i used to work as a presidential speechwriter before i started writing this book so you can imagine my shock when i learned that the subject of my new book didn't much care for my old occupation. in fact robert e. lee was so offended when he heard george washington might have used a ghostwriter to pen his famous farewell address that he refused to believe it. he said anyone who says george washington used a ghostwriter was quote injudicious. so if i've learned nothing else from writing his biography it's that i should say a little bit less about my own biography.

i'm so pleased to be at this beautiful house and i'm so grateful to the historical society for inviting me today. i had a chance to go over to see the historical society earlier today and it is such a wonderful facility and i'm so happy to see it expanding. that's a great thing for people to who do what i do because we are so reliant on the great work that our archivists and other preservation is due to preserve american history so thank you to the historical society for your great work. it's also a pleasure to be here in louisville. robert e. lee actually came through louisville in 1837. he was on a trip out west and i'm proud to tell you that it made quite an impression on leave. it isn't so much what he saw here as who he met here, two ladies. these weren't just any ladies.

they were as he put it decidedly the most beautiful and interesting young ladies. never fear robert e. lee told his wife every single detail about how he escorted those women to their destinations diligently and dutifully. what took leads through louisville in 1837 was an assignment that he received from the u.s. army corps of engineers which was lee's employer. they had sent him to go to the mississippi river to do some work. i mention that tonight because there's actually a different river that originally brought me to robert e. lee's story. i confess that on the surface they seem like an unlikely person to write a biography about robert e. lee. i grew up in the suburbs of washington d.c. and spent most of my adult life working in that city. around those parts when you tell people you are planning to write

a civil war biography they assume you are going to write about a union general, not a confederate general and they certainly don't expect that you will write about that confederate general. for a long time i avoided explaining myself. i did what you do expect someone from washing to do when given a tough question, i ducked it. [laughter] no more it and i want to explain myself. what first jeremy to a pretty leave was probably what you would least expect, simple geography. simply put lee and i grew up along the same river, the potomac. not that sounds surprising for two reasons. first were me think of the potomac river especially out here you probably imagine a polluted stream of political corruption. sometimes that's true.

you certainly probably don't imagine a river of american history and second when he you think of property league you tend to imagine him personifying an old self this seems light years away from the cosmopolitan capital that we know today. but that shoot -- the truth is far different. reminders are all around the city and i was fortunate for me because one of their minders was through robert e. lee paper so i was able to go and see the letters that robert e. lee roe. writing a biography requires getting out and seeing the places where history actually happened and robert e. lee's history took place all around where i lived. during the course of my research of this book i traveled the full length of the potomac river from the source to its mouth and for those of you not familiar with it potomac it starts in west

virginia at the fairfax dome word trickles out, flows through the appalachian mountains passed the city of washington and empties into the chesapeake bay and point lookout maryland. and yes i really could drag my wife along for this entire ride along the potomac. all the things you need to write about griffey and understanding that. if you ever take this journey that i have just described you will learn some things. you will learn that the potomac is much more than just a stream of political corruption bill is a said it sometimes is. you learn that robert e. lee's history flows up and down this river and you learn in the most unexpected ways robert e. lee's history intersects with the father of our countries history and that is george washington's history. start way down river west or link county virginia near the chesapeake bay where robert e. lee grew up on a plantation

called stratford hall. stratford hall was built by robert e. lee's great great uncle thomas lee. thomas lee has the distinction that no other american has. he fathered two signers of the declaration of independence. and the great house that thomas lee built, the stratford, was a symbol of great wealth that the lee family accumulated over the potomac river so the lee's truly were one of virginia's finest families. not far from stratford hall just a short drive away in westmoreland county you will find were george washington was born. by the time robert e. lee was born in 1807 of course george washington was long dead. but the lee and washington named had all ready been fused together and now is because of robert e. lee's father, a man named henry light horse.

he was one of george washington's most trusted calvary commanders during the revolutionary war rate that is how he earned the nickname light horse harry lee. what made the most famous was what he did after the war. he wrote a eulogy for his old commander. he is the one who wrote the words first in war, first in peace and first in the hearts of his countrymen and those are still the words we remember george washington by today. robert e. lee's time everybody knew that his father had written those words. how much of harry the admired george washington he couldn't copy george washington's examples. he couldn't imitate what he knew was george washington's greatest virtue in lois tepper to? i with self-control and self-command. after the revolutionary war. the cycling to a tragedy. he bet all of his money and land

that he lost very badly. he lost so bad he ended up in debtors prison and eventually kept it going to ask on the caribbean. he left his family during the war of 1812 and he never saw his son robert ever again. so robert e. lee didn't grow up on the big plantation because of financial problems. if you want to find where robert e. lee grew up you have to head up the potomac river to the town of alexandria where robert e. lee lived in a modest house belonging to friends and relatives who took pity upon his mother. not today we no alexandria is alexandria virginia. but back then it was alexandria and the district of columbia and the reason for that was george washington when he laid out the original borders for the district of columbia stock alexandria into the corner. indeed if you look at a map of d.c. today and to take the small

strip of land were arlington and alexandria are in western virginia you will see a perfect diamond shaped square and that was george washington's original intent for the district of columbia. he wanted to include lans from maryland and virginia. the town closest to george washington's mt. vernon plantation alexandria is considered in the south to be george washington's hometown. ron -- young robert saw them everywhere. robert e. lee as a child worship of the episcopal church were george washington had. robert e. lee attended school at the alexander academy which george washington had endowed and property league ran errands for his mother in the marketplace were george washington had drilled troops during the french and indian war. and the descriptions we have a property lease childhood described him as almost anything

but a boy. they describe him as a -- with his mother who was always sick. they describe him as a housekeeper running errands for his family and no one understood what track down harry lee better than his wife and she made sure that tragedy did not repeat itself and robert e. lee. from the earliest age she taught young robert to put duty before desire. she taught him how to control himself. for the rest of robert e. lee's life he had an almost compulsive regard for her. he would say he could never have his own way. so as much as robert e. b. might want material things he would not lack the virtue that separated terry lee from george washington. robert e. lee new self-control and he knew how to deny himself. but we have to have a little bit

further up river to the great mansion at the top of arlington heights. if you ever see the arlington heights today is right across the potomac river where the lincoln memorial now stands. they are on june 30, 1831 robert e. lee married the daughter of george washington's adopted son. we no arlington has a cemetery. but back then it was a memorial to george washington because george washington's adopted son a guy named george washington have built that house and filled with relics of mt. vernon. if you have god in the 19th century you would have seen china and furniture and portraits that it wants than in mt. vernon. he would have even seen the bed were george washington died in supposedly george washington left it in the exact same condition at george washington left it. people from all across the country came to arlington to see

these momentous. it was almost as if arlington was a museum. and there were something else at arlington. they were slaves who dissented from mt. vernon and you might ask yourself how is that possible? didn't george washington famously free all of the slaves? he did free all of his own slaves but what he couldn't do much as he wanted to do but he couldn't free his wife's slaves. some of those legs became the property of george washington's adopted son. now we himself thought that slavery was an evil institution. you should make the mistake of thinking he was abolitionist. he certainly was an abolitionist. he did pray that god would enslave rape but it may surprise you to know that he thought slavery was worse for whites than it was for the slaves themselves which is an attitude that is hard for us to understand today that basically

robert e. lee wanted nothing to do with this institution. he would try his hardest to avoid it as much as possible but what ultimately entangles robert e. lee in the institution of slavery is that his father-in-law died in 1857 and he leaves a well naming robert e. lee as executor of the estate that actually includes slaves to our dissented from mt. vernon. so on the eve of the civil war robert e. lee ann harrison estate that include slaves that george washington wanted to but could not free. it was very much one of the personal legacies the robert e. lee received from george washington. and to see how this unresolved question is wavering began turning to violence. you have to head 50 miles up the

potomac river and you'll come to a little town called harpers ferry. it was george washington's idea to put federal armory in harpers ferry. his advisers thought it was a terrible idea and if you have ever been to harpers ferry he would see harpers ferry is surrounded by white mountains. at george washington died it would make it easy to defend harpers ferry. as it turned out it made harpers ferry completely indefensible. in 1859 a group of abolitionists led by one john brown crossed the potomac river seized the armory and took a number of hostages. one of those hostages was a man named lewis washington who was george washington's great grand nephew. john brown took something else from washington's house not him personally. he had his accomplice take something else. there was a sword that belonged

to george washington for the entire time he controlled harpers ferry he carried a sword that belonged to george washington. who reasserted federal control? robert e. lee lieutenant colonel robert e. lee. he goes to harpers ferry and he is already known at that time is one of the military's finest soldiers. he had earned that reputation during the war in mexico. he proved to be a brilliant soldier. he had a unique understanding of topography. he could see things that other people could not see. he performs well and he puts down the insurrection. he reasserts federal controls and what becomes known as john brown's raid already impresses his military resume but also goes to something else. it heralds the coming of the civil war. now i want to take it one final place on the potomac trip

upriver from harpers ferry, the quiet national park today where you will find a cornfield you'll find a sunken road and you will find a stone bridge over a creek called antietam. there in september 18, 1862 robert e. lee outmanned and outgunned her -- army of northern virginia that the union army of the potomac which was much much larger in the bloodiest single day of combat in american history. the battle of antietam was the end of robert e. lee's first invasion across the potomac pretty gave abraham lincoln as president the opportunity to issue the preliminary emancipation proclamation which in turn would eventually allow abraham lincoln to give a new freedom to the union george washington had forged. anyone who takes the journey that i just described must

wrestle with an unavoidable question. how did an army officer so opposed to george washington's legacy go to war against what we today consider george washington's greatest legacy the union. it was this question that ultimately true me to robert e. lee story and it's that tragic knowledge that history could have turned out so much differently. because on the eve of the civil war leaders on both sides of the potomac in richmond and in washington sought lee's services for high command. both knew about his -- with george washington i was common knowledge and both had tremendous significance. they also knew that when the failed scot who at the time was the ranking general in the u.s. army that lee was the best soldier he had ever seen in the field.

robert e. lee certainly looked like a fine soldier. he stood just under 6 feet tall. he had powerful broad shoulders. he had a barrel chest. he had perfect posture. everybody who saw him said some version of the same thing that man looks every inch the soldier. so in april 1861 abraham lincoln asked robert e. lee to right across from arlington and come to the city of washington. that emissary's name is francis blair and he makes an extraordinary offer to robert e. lee. he says when you lead the main army to crush secession? and is lee remembered the story blair tried in every way to convince robert e. lee to say yes. he said blair set to leave the country looks to you as a representative of the washington family to save the union george washington fortune that was partly an exaggeration. here after all was the son of

george washington's most famous eulogists in the son-in-law of george washington's adopted child. so now only one word separated robert e. lee from the pinnacle of his profession from command of the largest american army and some glory perhaps that no american george washington had none. what did robert e. lee say. [inaudible question] he said he opposed secession and he did oppose secession. he that secession was illegal. equally significantly he that george washington was opposed to secession and that was given at the time because people on both sides of the complex chore -- claimed george washington for them. secession is claimed george washington was a rebel. on the other side unionists would say george washington in his farewell address that deprived the union of any exceptional allegiance. actually robert e. lee is

reading a biography of george washington in the months before the civil war and he is hearing this argument and he concludes he basically agrees with the unionist position. he believes george washington would have opposed secession. so what else did he say to francis blair quickly said he would gladly wash his hands of slavery and get rid of all slavery if it would avoid war. but then he said how can i raise my sword against my union state? in here a blair family tradition said we hesitated after searching for an answer but his lee told the story he gave the answer no. he turned down the command so he did not turn in his submission to the army he served for three decades pretty returned to the arlington house. virginia had voted to secede from the union and april 20 he

writes a letter resigning from the union army and is wife recall that decision to resign the severe struggle of his life. but just three days after sending that resignation letter lee is welcomed in richmond is the new commander-in-chief of all the armed forces and the convention president, the president of the virginia secession convention looks at basically robert e. lee is the second coming of george washington and he hopes what was once said of george washington would soon be said of robert e. lee that he is first in war first in peace, first in the hearts of countrymen. the very words that harry lee had used to describe george washington. so robert e. lee for his part would say he didn't have a choice.

it wasn't so much that he said he made the right choice. he said he made the only choice. it was very much like him to say he could never have his own way so he decided to have virginia's way. but at the same time we also know that other virginians made different decisions. lee's mentor in the army decided to stay with the union and when robert e. lee came to winnefeld scott and told him that he had turned down the union army winnefeld scott said to lee lee you have made the greatest mistake of your life but i feared it would be so. and it's true the decision the robert e. lee made cost him terribly. one of the very first things that happened after robert e. lee decides to fight for virginia is that union soldiers cross the bridges from washington and seized the arlington heights were robert e. lee lived.

if you've ever been to washington you know why he did this. because the confederacy had been overlooking the city of washington you could have destroyed washington. in time as the casualties mount in this word union authorities decide to turn arlington -- turns into the cemetery that we know today. and that is just the beginning. i think as you read how lee's decision to turn against the union you will be astonished because it is shockingly personal the price that we pay. now my wife and i bring her up again will tell you the reason i became so fascinated by this decision is how irreversible it was. and as a writer i have a very different life because i can write something and research it and change it a million times

and revise it and that is what writers do but we never had that luxury. there was no going back. we talk so often about social movements and trends that we sometimes forget that history is not inevitable. history can turn on the decision of a single individual in here were such an example. property lee's decision forever changed the course of american history and if you ask yourself how it changed the course of american history just imagine the counterfactual. what would have happened if robert e. lee had accepted that? what would have happened if the soldier associated with george washington had saved the union that george washington had created? what would we think about our country? how would that change your outlook? there is no better place to ponder that question the arlington. if you go past the graves of the men who died defending the union and you go up to the arlington heights which robert e. lee's

father-in-law built as a memorial to george washington but is now a monument to robert e. lee the national robert e. lee memorial and you stare across the potomac river at the city of washington you will see the washington monument in the distance. before the washington moment -- monument as lincoln memorial and that's it powerful symbol for a country because for all of property lee's connections to george washington he is no longer the american that most folks associate with george washington. that honor belongs to the son of kentucky who was born without a single connection to george washington. that honor belongs to abraham lincoln. herman melgar once wrote that who exactly must think of washington and deep with grievous meaning as that. i hope you'll read about in my book and i hope you'll come to washington to see some of the places i describe. i'm so thankful to all for coming in and be happy to answer

questions. thank you. [applause] [applause] >> there are is a story after the war in a church a black man comes forward come you know the story. myself i don't believe it but i would like you to comment on it. there are several ways it could be very factual. >> the story is the robert e. lee is in church and a black man is praying and robert e. lee and no one knows what to do. robert e. lee goes up and -- and that's a story told by many people. the truth is we don't know. it was told many years after the event so it's very difficult to evaluate the accuracy of the story. it just actually seen a recent

article of people debating is so unfortunately i can't answer the question. if there is some evidence of something like that happened what were robert e. lee's motives for doing it? have something we can answer. i saw a recent article that made the suggestion that simply put he didn't like people feeling awkward and he thought the best way was to simply gone with his business and set an example for upper body else and they should all go on with their business. we just don't know and it's a great story you brought up and i can't say it's not true and i can't say it is true. it's on the front lines of history. >> i'm interested in what happens after the war. he visited the greenbrier and he spent the summers there. there was one summer a few years after the war was over when the confederate generals were there as well. he ended up citing something that was honest with greenbrier

doctrine. can you talk about that? ..

>> >> to go be productive citizens. >> did you find any anti-slavery feelings? where does that come from?

>> that is a great question. actually lee married into a family his mother-in-law was very religious and she took the attitude basically a leading member of the colonization society she thought it was a religious duty to prepare slaves to find freedom in african colonies. and this was the very important mission into his mother-in-law and his wife. robert e. lee was not so active but his father in law became somewhat active as well celesta will but it said you must raise enough money to pay off my debts and buy a legacy. but you must emancipate my

slaves within five years. these are completely impossible goals to reconcile because he can't pay off the debt and legacy if the emancipates the work force that he needs for money. this whole conflict plays out in the national media because there is a great national interest him and what happens because people though his father-in-law was washington's adopted son and he really struggles with this but has some point he says his brother-in-law left him a terrible legacy. >> he has great affection for virginia because he is native from there but so much of his life made it have great affection for the nations like west point or the united states army he

lived all over the country. what tipped the scales since. >> you're absolutely right he constantly talks about five the two gloves the union and the devotion but he has been taught from the first lh -- allegiances to virginia and it seems strange summer and that is so associated with washington and ignores the message of the farewell address. he was determined to fill the duty. he will either betrayed his country or go to war and that is very difficult. they did make a choice but

is an extremely difficult decision to have to make. >> with the commander-in-chief he will not lose the war and lee never had that in sight. >> that is one of the criticisms that is often level that property. but the war was very different. during the revolutionary war he was one ocean away. du was fighting an enemy that was a river away. and he very much felt that time was not on his side.

he felt the longer the war went, the more men the union could bring to bear in the to caused damage and he thought the cells would snap he felt he had to break the political will so that is why you find a robber easily trying to destroy the army. but he is extremely frustrated. because the army got away. in there is the good argument to be made. >> but toward the end of the war did you come across that

response? >> yes i did. newspapers openly said george washington was us a dictator the end of the revolutionary war what we need right now is robert e. lee. hee was never interested in that he felt he could barely do what we have -- which he had to do happen to take responsibility for everybody else? he does except the title of the confederate forces that makes his job all the much harder he thinks it is an honor it is of burden because it is the sign that people were saying things like that.

>> has deal not support social order in the south? before the southern efforts of secession in? you want them to maintain as they were? how was that possible? >> with the argument he had a more gradual feel it wasn't that he was opposed to emancipation but in favor of it after the war that that was always his point of view. it doesn't mean he wanted everything to happen at once imparted this is understanding robert d. the was a conservative and he was so conservative he ends up with rebellion.

that is the key to understand his personality. he cannot read pelican's rebellion if not his way it will be virginias way. >> i think that is true. there is no escaping that but the point you're making is that property the is aware of that but there are some confederate setter holding of hope for recognition. because he says to the rest of the world in lowe's like a contest between slavery and freedom and once that is the case no more power will intervene on our behalf. so the point is well taken. >> does anything come across

about his fascination? >> he gives an interview when he gets back to richmond so he is on the record and he is very disturbed by it and thinks it is terrible that the north will blame this on the south for retribution for what would happen and he was very upset about this. >> guess what i have read to be so formal in with the military it was just the opposite. >> that is accurate. that moment has been described ever since it happened that robert t. the buttons up and has a vacancy

soared -- a fancy sword and grant comes in with boots. and robert e. lee has perfect posture and granted slumped over and he has an amazing contrast. it is something that people know did then and have ever since. >> i believe if he graduated second in his class at west point. and that is the time they became engineers. and to be part of the northern virginia army. >> could he did graduate second in his class and

they're the most prestigious branch the you could go into. going back to the beginning the reason he was coming through the will he was on his way to st. louis to perform work on the mississippi river. during the mexican-american war he put his skills to work because engineers play an important role where armies could go and lee recognizes he can seek routes around the mexican army others cannot see. but his background as an engineer comes out with the early campaign we have this image of him being a really successful but that is not true. is first campaigns were disasters he was sent to western virginia and he has a very elaborate battle that requires them to converge at the same moment in the plan

is a failure in the newspapers actually say robert tv is too much of an engineer to command. we'll be the right now is fighting and. in asia is 62 when lee chases mclellan off the peninsula there speaking very differently. >> what was grant's personal opinion? >> grant writes about this moment and says lee is almost impossible to read his facial expressions because of ultimate defeat of lee he holds itself together with complete self control and grant notes that. also what is interesting about that is great because a pretty good memory of

robert e. lee from the mexican-american war era and lee is struggling to remember his face because at that time and robert e. lee was more important than ulysses s. grant. there's actually one more meeting at the white house when grant becomes president robert e. lee actually goes to the white house seated only imagine what that reading list of them like for robert e. lee. >> he says he has a talent? so the gettysburg fiasco where he did not take the lieutenant's advisement under consideration, did his personality to hold things in and to be in control had anything to do with his for decision making?

gimmicky looks back at gettysburg in had explanations why it failed. he was not getting good intelligence because jeb stuart disappeared and basically went on a joyride but he relied on him for intelligence he believes for commanders don't act in unison maybe they could have succeeded with proper artillery support but nobody told and they were running low after the initial bombardment. i do think it is up moment of frustration he feels he is running out of time and passed to destroy the army. if you look at his attitude after words of chancellorsville he is furious and a lot of people think hookers' final position was strong and

robert e. lee was going to order a frontal assault but a hooker withdrawals that night and hooker makes the greatest mistake of his life by retreating in the saves robert e. lee from making a mistake to charge. >> did lee ever write down what he thought of the army slaves? >> he did say at this point it was better to begin to a list african-americans and that would be including emancipation in the attitude was it is better to have them fight with us as they fight against us. so he does take that view.

>> after the war there was a lot of pressure from the generals and officials of the former confederacy to write his memoirs and anti-procrastinated. was there any preliminary material he may have gathered together? >> there is. that is a recent discovery. he did say after the war he wanted to write his memoirs. but remember he lost all of his personal papers during though war. said he is writing letters and asking people to send him the documents so he can restructing of what happened but it is a frustrating process that he abandons the project. instead he writes a memoir of his father the new addition could with a short

biography and he goes through when you cross is out certain things. is said his father had opposed the revolution antisatellite dash robert e. lee crosses and out and also to play an important role to bring down the whiskey rebellion. and his brother suggest they the comparison between the rebellion and the civil war in hell could they were to the rebels compared to the union authorities and robert e. lee strikes the entire paragraph and i will lot of knowledge in the comparisons with the symbol for. >> and icon of a lost cause

philosophy but did he himself never identify or comment? >> it is extremely ironic a soldier who was so reluctant about secession who becomes the icon of a lost cause. his wife served recognizes what happens after robert e. lee dies because one of the first things is there is a lot the eulogies and what do people say? he was first to board first to peace and first in the hearts of the country the same words his father used to describe george washington so it comes full circle. so that pathology blows up quickly. >> what is your understanding or your feeling for him as you went through the journey from the

compelling question that drew you to him? did you find reconciliation yourself? >> i'm glad you asked because going back to the previous question some think of robert e. lee as a symbol and especially in society for them to represent something the matter what you think about the civil war and what i found is looking at what he wrote to his wife and children i got to see a man who could be very funny, sometimes flirtatious with women but also the extreme sense of frustration that he could never have his own way and

is always forced into roles not of his own choosing and there is something about that that makes the story very tragic. i think robert e. lee story is a unique tragedy of american history spinach as president of washington college how effective was the and what was his life like there or his emotional state? gimmicky was very involved you may think he would just take the post to let other people do the work. but he held long office hours when employees did not work they were called in to see general lee. [laughter] you can only imagine. we know some left with tears. he was quite progressive with his ideas of education.

that college needed to expand offerings to prepare for the jobs that actually available in the south at that time. so he expands the school genetically and increases the endowment one program he proposes is a scholarship the course of study in the field he dislikes witches journalism. [laughter] people see him after the war taking longer rides on his horse and they wonder what is on his mind because they can see the sadness in his eyes. one can only imagine what he was thinking. >> with the story of reconstruction to many

americans still looking at reconstruction that way? >> right. people looked at it differently i did not mean to apply -- imply i've looked at it but that is what he thought what was happening to the country. battle thank you care when i think credit has been re-evaluated if we have seen good things that have come out of reconstruction and ideas that would find time in american history and we are a better country because of it. >> does he ever addressed the gilts of the men under his command?

>> yes. he talks about those people which is the union army he often says he wishes he could have destroyed more of the army because of the potential for victory but i don't have the exact words but basically said he wishes he could never see blood again because he is seen so many good men die. i wouldn't say that is regret but it shows just how much the death affects him one of the very first death that happens to him mr. in early campaign in western virginia he brings another great grandnephew of george washington and he dies under

robert e. lee command and he takes that loss very sharply >> as you study the characters have the they compare with characters today in washington? [laughter] did you think it sounds like this way? >> given the beginning when confronted with a tough question you expect washington to dock. [laughter] it is just so hard to say what would robert e. lee say about the world the way it is today? i think it is an impossible question for the week cannot know.

select has happened is not bear to take them 1870 the last the the you into 2015 to say what you think about health care reform? [laughter] he could not even conceived of where we are as a country but he would be fascinated by transportation because he was an engineer. he did want the country to be bound together by different modes of transportation. he would say it could have been half a faster if it was run more efficiently. he but find that interesting but for the political situation i will take a pass it is too hard to make comparisons for the civil wars and she period that the matter is finally settled

the we don't have to do that again. [applause]

>> host: let's just jump into the most controversial