is probably at issue with 90% of them. nonetheless, i don't think that it's uncommon that you have to prove that somebody believes something. so the standard of approval is like in any other case. >> i don't think that this is like any other case because you're dealing with something that is a religious belief that is inherently personal to the individual. the charge employers with this title vii liability and require them to come to an understanding of whether a particular practice is religious or not. >> suppose an employer just doesn't want to hire any jews and someone watson and let's say a guy walks in with a name and they have no certainty that he's jewish. certainly mr. goldberg doesn't say anything about being jewish. but the employer operates on an assumption. so no, he doesn't get the job. is that a violation? >> that is a disparate

treatment. >> that has to be against the law. it doesn't matter whether the employer knows it too absolute certainty. >> absolutely. in that situation what is relevant is the employer's intent. if the employer intends to discriminate on the basis of religion, that is a title vii violation. but what's going on here is that the employer seeks to apply a religion neutral dress code. >> it makes religious practice the refusal to accommodate religious practice is itself a violation. and that was done deliberately, was it not? so that religious practices would have to be accommodated. >> yes, your honor.

two points in response. first we are not contending that religious practices do not have to be accommodated. but what we are contending is that an employer did not intentionally discriminate on the basis of a religious practice by enforcing a religion neutral dress code. >> what the statute does is to say that if you are wearing a headscarf for religious reasons, that the neutral policy really doesn't matter it only matters if there's an undue burden and you can't make an accommodation. but except for that, you just have to hire me even if i'm wearing a headscarf. the fact that you don't know that i'm wearing a headscarf for religious reasons, if you assume that because most people do wear headscarves for religious reasons, it shouldn't make any more difference than the hypothetical that i gave. >> on that logic it would also make no difference if the

employer had absolutely no idea that the headscarf was wrong and leonard nimoy for religious reasons because it would still be a religious headscarf and practice. not even the eeoc is claiming that there is an ability to accommodate. the question before the court is at what level of knowledge does the employer have to have before this duty to accommodate is triggered. for 40 years the guidance have put the burden to initiate this conversation on the employee because only the employee knows. >> i suppose they had no reason to think anything offensive about this. and so she says by the way i have a religious reason for wearing a tank top [inaudible] so how is she supposed to -- as

far as this goes there's no policy that the employees feel they are violating. >> she knew enough about them to understand that they had a dress code. knew enough to ask. >> i wasn't aware of that. >> she testified that she knew she would have to wear abercrombie and fitch style closed, she said they they knew that they did not sell headscarves. and she also knew that they did not sell headscarves. >> but she had a friend whether this was a problem.

and in fact three over four manager says that it was okay to wear scarves. >> why would she suspect that if she was qualified and has the personality they are looking for and is dressed appropriately this company would fail to hire her because they refuse to accommodate the religious bullies. >> she asked a friend who is not involved in the hiring process and even the advice in this includes after they describe the policy of the interview these are scripted interviews.

>> i remember reading this and so we discussed this at the interview. >> if you look at the joint appendix number 33 that is the testimony that they gave them the opportunity to ask any questions. >> it did not specifically mention this, but it described the policy in general. and it was a matter of common sense that they require their employees to wear clothes that look like the abercrombie style. >> this person has bullock. this is the person who has the look that looks just like this

and it is against the abercrombie rules. were they not hire that person on the assumption that this person likes black so much that this person is going to wear black every single day. >> i don't think that they need to make that assumption about what the person will do later in order to make a judgment based on the person's appearance at the interview. if i walk into an interview wearing a suit please don't wear a suit. but if this person is coming in wearing a suit, that is not compatible with our style and likewise with the headscarf. johnson's testimony which they didn't challenge is that he would have taken the same action for somebody who came into an interview wearing a headscarf and a baseball cap, a helmet or other things.

>> no questions asked, the act violates all the policies. >> that's right. what that shows is that religion is not the basis for the action but rather abercrombie was completely indifferent. >> but that doesn't work in a case like this. you have an obligation to accommodate people with particular religious practice or believe. >> mr. chief justice for purposes of an intentional discrimination claim, it does matter that you treat everyone the same and that is the theory that they are pursuing here. >> as i understand it it is intentional discrimination because you failed to accommodate. >> i would submit that that's an incomprehensible understanding of what intentional discrimination means. >> we can get into all that if you want to add something.

so what is wrong with saying that she's religious and needs accommodation. fine, that's the end of it. >> did he correctly believe that the drug that was being sold did the manager whom you're trying to fire did he correctly believe -- did he correctly believe that this applicant graduated from princeton? did he correctly believe that he had authority under the delegation of agency to sign a check? there are thousands of things. why is it our job to say what the right way of this is?

you don't have to formulate this just because she told you. i mean you can argue that one and that it's the only way to prove it. i'd like to hear it. but once we are beyond that why do we have this? >> in this particular context having a correct belief were suspecting any possible conflict will inevitably lead employers. >> i am with you with respect only where they correctly believe or understand [inaudible] those three things seem good enough to me. so i repeated this three times but i want to hear the answer why they are not good enough. >> the reason they are not good enough is that there is no way that the employer can no about a

religious practice unless the information is traceable to the employee and having that kind of a correct belief standard will inevitably lead employers to stereotype because a factfinder might later find. >> she said that she saw her in a scarf and she acted on a stereotype and i guess some if you wear a black scarf, it is because of a religious belief. >> i don't believe that she acted upon that stereotype, i believe that johnson instructed her not to hire her because she was noncompliant with the policy. >> they didn't hire her because under the policy he believed you could not accommodate that religious belief.

or that religious practice. >> i think that the reason he didn't hire her is because she was not compliant with the look policy. >> you have a sort of interested in this. when you mean traceable you mean it loosely, i guess. i guess i can imagine a case, but he found out about this from an fbi agent. but it just seems very unlikely. >> a case the case of the government gives us an example in one and where we learn of an applicant religious practice. >> and the applicants reference didn't know the applicant? >> they did know the applicant. so that is traceable through the applicant. >> what is the difference? i am still very confused.

you don't think that there could ever be discrimination based on the general neutral policy. because what does it matter if she told him that this was because of religious belief. if he's only hiring her or not hiring her because of this policy, then he hasn't discriminated. >> if she had told him that this is for religious belief and i need an accommodation, at that point there would be ability to accommodate. but the question is. >> i am so totally confused. that's not enough. >> that's right, because she testified that she did not know that she wore a headscarf or religious reasons. we want to avoid is what whether employers think or gas or

sixpack. >> all they have to do is say this is what our policy is, do you have any problem as has been pointed out. [inaudible] [inaudible] and so i was [inaudible] that was the answer that he gave. no difference between a headscarf or 80 him a call or a turbine. >> to answer your question about why the employer can't just disclose the policy, that is not a solution because that is asking employers to treat applicants differently based upon stereotypes or assumptions

about whether something is likely a religious practice. >> is there going to be a requirement and doesn't the employer have the obligation to tell the employee what the job requirements are? >> not under title vii. it requires applicants or employees that violate workplace rules to be given a chance to explain themselves before adverse actions are taken. >> what i don't understand with respect to this particular case as i understand it they do not have a policy that an interviewee must comply with the look policy. >> the look policy itself does not apply the interview. >> so there would be no reason for not hiring an individual involved unless you assume that she was going to wear a scarf every day. >> just because she wore a headscarf on the one-day would

it mean that she was necessarily going to wear it the other days. maybe she was having a bad hair day and she comes in with a headscarf. but she didn't have any religious reason for doing it. would you reject or for that? no. the reason she was rejected is because you assumed that she was going to do this every day. the only reason why she would do it everyday is because she had a religious reason. >> justice, that has not been the theory of this case. if it had been there would have been ways that they could have tried to prove that they could have western johnson specifically. what would they have done if someone would have come in wearing a ball cap. they could have tried to get compared of evidence. and for the theory which had every opportunity to prove had not been -- >> title vii doesn't require baseball caps, but it does require religious practices and

so as i said is not just based on what they do. it is a discrete requirement. >> as i understood it is that abercrombie only didn't hire this person because the headscarf was religious and what i'm suggesting is that they might well not have hired anyone who walks in wearing any headcover. and so if they would have wanted to prove this about religion. >> they will require people to conform. >> the look policy itself does not require that but johnson in effect was judging people. >> you are about to tell us what the case was. i was eager to hear that. can you tell us what you think

the theory of the case was? >> i think the theory of the case was the duty to accommodate religious practice anytime in employer has a correct understanding or a suspicion of that practice. it had not been that they acted based upon assumptions or religion. one way in which we know that is let's assume that the policy did apply at the interview. under that theory if an interviewer suspected that the applicants correctly understood that the applicant or the headscarf or religious purposes, at that point there would be a duty to accommodate. regardless of whether they did it or not making assumptions of future compliance, there would be a duty to accommodate upon that correct understanding at the interview.

but employers in order to protect themselves in the future from having a jury find that they must correctly be understood that a particular -- >> what is the difference between that? >> i don't understand what you're about to say. >> the only way that employers can protect themselves under the approach is by training their managers to stereotype about possible religious beliefs because a judge or jury might later find that abercrombie or an employer correctly understood or must have correctly understood under an object, which they don't disclaim. >> you are essentially saying that the problem is that it requires abercrombie to engage in what is called an awkward conversation to ask some questions. people can disagree over whether people can ask those questions but you are saying that we should structure the to make sure that there's no possibility of that awkward conversation ever taking place.

but the alternative to that rule is a rule where they just say we are going to prevent people from getting jobs and we will never have the awkward conversation because we are just trying to cut these people out and make sure that they never become abercrombie employees. between those two options the option of using a stereotype to make sure that somebody never gets a job or have an awkward conversation, which does the statute seem to think is the worst problem? >> the problem is not having an awkward conversation but that the eeoc rule would lead employers to treat people differently based upon religion which is exactly the opposite of what title vii says. >> it requires people in this. >> but they require that only after it the employee or

applicant places religion on the table. they do not want employers to be making those judgments before the employee raises the issue. the concern raised here that we are going to have applicants were completely in the dark about work policies has not been borne out. >> your argument is that it may sound odd when you have the leaves and for administrative reasons we have to have them but there are millions of people practicing one religion or another and we get a clue that from their name or whatever it is. whenever we have this if she doesn't say anything when he doesn't say anything, we don't want all of those lawsuits and it isn't a big burden to say to the person to tell us. getting into some administrative rule without that simple rule

tell us, we are going to be getting sued left right and center. >> that is right. but even after the mutual sounding sort of western, can you comply with this that is treating applicants differently. >> that's not the end of the world. perhaps you could say we have thousands of managers and goodness knows what they are going to start getting resentful. and i just want to make sure that i've got the arguments. >> that's the essence of it. part of the reason that i think that this is significant is that under their own regulations if the employer asks the neutral sounding question and then chooses not to have this as a part of the religion -- >> this is such an unusual case because it's very rare that you have an interviewer like this who is honest. the only reason that there's a

suit is because she was honest and came in and told someone else. but this young woman was not going to sue until she heard this information. most people don't presume they're not hired because of some religious practice. but if you have a policy that conflicts with religious practice and the person knows you're going to wear a yarmulke then you might get sued. >> many if not all title vii cases do originate without any sort of admission by the employer about what the reason was for not hiring the individual. if the rule that places a burden on employers to raise the sorts of issues is one that will undermine the purposes. >> thank you, counsel. you have five minutes left. >> thank you, mr. chief justice. making just a couple quick factual points to clear up what i take to be some confusion. there was some discussion about whether in fact he needed to

comply with the policy. i point the court to this in which the district court says the policy applies to all store employees, but applicants are not required to be in compliance at the time of the interview. there was question about whether they knew or did not know about the scarf, it is crystal clear that she did not know. the district court said i'm sorry, that they did or did not know, that it's undisputed that she did not tell her that they would not permit matters to wear black clothing. should the court wish to look at it is this exhibit in the trial. it says i will caution that it's not in the judgment record, but admitted in the damages trial. it is consistent and it does not mention headscarves.

>> your honor i think the administrative argument cuts during a couple of ways. first of all, the suggestion that there practical problems is improbable. the ninth circuit, the seventh circuit, everybody is talking about this it is the 10th circuit that has imposed these two requirements. and second, i don't think it unmissable for the reasons that we talked about the first time appear. an employer can structure an interview to make sure that the critical rules are followed and the employer if it wants can make no assumptions about religion. just as i would like to pick up on your point and i think what is important about this case and why we think it is important is precisely that it is unusual. what's unusual is that the applicant found out why she was not hired. that is what is strange. most of the time the person is never finds out that the accommodation was made and the

employer assumed the accommodation would be needed and just never told. [inaudible] >> they certainly could find out >> i'm not sure that it does i think this is what makes it unimportant case, most applicants unlike employees were in a position to go back and forth with the employer and understand. applicants are at eight informational disadvantage. if i could just close this, as we pick up on something else but the justice was pointing out that the background is that belief is sufficient and what makes this case particularly strong is that this is belief plus an assumption where they acted on the belief and assume she would need an accommodation and that is certainly sufficient and the 10th circuit was wrong

otherwise. >> thank you, counsel, the case is submitted. >> both the house and senate have passed a temporary spending measure to fund the homeland security department for one week. after the house rejected it both chambers passed a term bill that funds the department until friday march 5. the senate is back monday at 2:00 p.m. eastern and at 530 we will take a vote on whether to go to conference with the house to work out differences and controversial language dealing with the president's executive action on immigration. live coverage of the house on c-span and the senate on c-span2. >> on the next "washington journal", vice president of the government media group has the latest developments in funding the department of homeland security and the legal and

status of immigration. and the director talks about efforts to recruit senator elizabeth warren to run for president in 2016. the president's request to fight isis and urging diplomacy with iran. founder and ceo of american majority discusses the legislative and political agenda. as always we will take your calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. >> here are some of our featured programs on the c-span networks. on booktv saturday night at 10:00 p.m. eastern on "after words." alan ripken talks about hollywood in the 1930s. sunday afternoon on in-depth, the live three-hour conversation

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>> to remove certain contaminants. who better difficult to develop often beyond the capacity to and the same scale when it comes to regulatory compliance. where residents work hard to support families for the counterparts with the more urbanized area with the demands that our proportionate to larger communities while i'm sure will explore the funding mechanism from other agencies it isn't just a matter to throw more money

up the problem to prioritize the importance of those needs to find out whether the current system to eliminate bureaucracy with voluntary or effort where congress cannot purport want to thank the witnesses to put their lives on hold to battle the elements enjoy in this. role communities deserve every benefit that those that live in the urban centers do. and i know there is an interest to address drinking water issues in there pre-share with their daring to break the ice. but with that i will yield to of the vice chair. >> i appreciate you holding

this hearing is like you and many of their members of congress to represent rural district where many constituents get their drinking water from water associations. were the 90% server population of lecithin thousand pahang a -- 10,000 individuals to have clean safe drinking water because of the economics of scale in know this is an important issue to you in the ranking member and i thank you for the opportunity to continue working on legislation to get the help in clearwater that they need will come to my fellow mississippian end to thank them for providing

their insights to the subcommittee today. i yield back. >> i have one minute left otherwise i recognize the chairman. >> also to the witnesses for holding this important hearing there is a vital topic and i appreciate the opportunity for the partnership as we address the very important phenomenon for all communities across the country. we have heard the statistics about the small water systems were the 94% of the 150,000 public drinking water systems serve fewer than 3300 customers they serve aa% of the population overall. but to households the is not

the size of the utility is reliable with the safe clean water for what matters. in the simply cannot pass it off with technical assistance and infrastructure repairs repairs, tapping into sources were keeping pace with regulations on to customers with ongoing rate increases. so with these essential materials it is long past time to provide robust support. in addition the srfs we should examine alternative financing mechanisms in new technologies that will

enable every dollar to go forward in in ways to reduce operating costs. to move very pleased to have the mayor here to represent a small utility for people throughout our state of your. to provide us with a glimpse of the challenges they face each and every day and the efforts to deliver safe drinking water. they do remarkable job for every home, every day. water infrastructure is the central is the only way to say it. we cannot afford to delay these investments in the longer. economic vitality of the sound infrastructure. we cannot maintain global

leadership with 20th-century infrastructure held together we have an excellent panel with us today. thank you for taking time away for your important work to be here in thank you for the expertise we will demonstrate to our community each and every day at work for garlic forward to your testimony each and everyone of you and they were pleased to be working with the chair of the subcommittee in the other members on this important issue and with that i thank you and the yield back. >> ic the one for recognition subtle recognize

you for five minutes. >> thank you. customers of all public systems deserve safe and affordable drinking water. with the infrastructure replacement cost including climate change. resources essential to any conversation about safe drinking water much of the infrastructure is well beyond its useful life in needs replacement investing in infrastructure boost the economy. this is the case with small enrols systems and i think the chairman for calling with those challenges in the 1996 the number of programs intended to help rule water systems to focus on capacity development certification

and infrastructure funding and technical assistance as a as safe and affordable drinking water. in with the role water association of. incredibly important for those other represented here today to discuss any chance it changes needed in the program. but the need for technical assistance for always the funding available a whole the colleagues will join with us to ensure that this program is given sufficient funding but the same is true for the drinking water for the srfs we want to make sure the rule systems are providing safe water we should redo the whole thing and not just the technical assistance peace.

we shall lose sight of the bigger picture. in for those disadvantaged communities with principal forgiven is. as a small customer base this is incredibly important. fortunately states are not required to provide assistance and not all do. assistance could be more scarce as the overall drinking water infrastructure needs grow faster than available funding. but this will a trestle dash address toxic algae i hope it is a starter broader work in the chairman is addressing the issue but the responsibility is comprehensive. all survey% of the population so we should also

that means we authorizing to make sure fracking is done safely to address drought with climate change. with more bipartisan conversations thank you mr. chairman. >> to introduce you one at a time respect votes but i think we will get through the opening statement. with director the natural area you are recognized for five minutes. >> good morning everyone.

i am pleased to be here today to discuss the infrastructure needs. >>. >> just pull the microphone closer. >> imc is to be here today to discuss superstructure naiads for the drinking water system. with that aging inner french -- and infrastructure with the projects and communities of 10,000 and fewer of 190 billion in coming decades. so looking year-old water infrastructure. first agencies find the drinking water with the issues affecting rural communities to obtain funding to that type of infrastructure.

so with technical assistance to help with building waste water systems. the epa drinking water and a revolving fund a program known as the srfs has the most funding within its 7 million and 1.5 billion respectively fiscal year 2015. providing 15 percent of the srfs to water systems that serve 10,000 or fewer. in with the next largest program of 485 million. some of the of the agencies that can provide funding include the department of housing and urban development, economic element administration is the bureau of reclamation. to provide funding for

infrastructure they have varying eligibility criteria to specific communities with the basis of population in the economic needs and geographic location. so several issues that affected rule issues for waste water infrastructure includes financing it agency coordination of. and those in authority noted the challenges so with regard to financing so to show the cost of major infrastructure projects while maintaining affordable use of rates. to have limited access to financial markets with their ability to raise capital.

with federal and state funding. and with the expertise to rebuild from drinking water and wastewater systems. including preliminary engineering reports and science agencies provide for some technical assistance. so it is duplicative application requirements for multiple state or federal programs. this for one preliminary engineering reports and the environmental analysis that made it more costly and time-consuming for the application of process. so with those programs to

respond to develop an engineering report that applies to multiple programs. seven states have adopted the template the epa and usda are taking steps to develop guidelines with uniform environmental analysis. the nation's drinking water raced our infrastructure is large and funding them would be challenging. with those challenges they face overall. it is to ease the community's efforts with the right technical assistance to courtney agency efforts. that concludes my statement

i am happy to answer any questions. >> now why recognize mayor atrazine. did i know the hudson. so with the west through its '04 reword boys. [laughter] i know the river and the valley very well. we are glad to have you recognized for five minutes. good morning. just a few miles south of albany on the date of the hudson river. and with that water association nonprofit organization i gotta call

from the association on monday asking about my availability with a trip related to my day job. sown with the environmental protection agency to thousand 305 community systems serving in the 3,300. those utilities have to comply with testing as the big cities but would donate very small repair bays. we have to operate and maintain on a very small budget. as a small community bear is wastewater everything else is a big concern. the problem with the drinking water has to be addressed immediately but it

doesn't matter when. the most vulnerable the families within fins or schools or nursing homes. we cannot have any contamination of the drinking water. suffers sewage backup into people's homes. said just last week it penetrated the ground so deeply we had to water raise our rupture between five and 6 feet under ground. as well as contact to cover the waterfront and is sold to contact as many citizens

as i can from the robo call. to excavate the frozen ground to repair the line to get the tests to the lab then wait for the results to lift the boil water order. we appreciate your assistance with the waste water supply to the funding program in the on-site technical assistance initiative. level which relies on this assistance. with the affordability but small role committee committee's support legislation to further target those most in need. we do need help from financing regulation in small communities. we don't have financials on

staff and three currently have needs for this system renewed new aeration tanks in new pumps in to have the capacity. however will have a way to finance at. hill to see and the pitcher that we have pipes that needed updating or replacing. the one in the picture is due out with the date is still in n ground with parts of the village. id you can see in the other picture that it is loaded with corrosion in deposits

so with the assistance with a role water association to explain why it is so helpful. with the evenings and weekends. isn't we call for help locating a water leak from ruptured pipe that could have occurred at any point of a 100 ft waterline but because of the equipment to detect traces underground to help look at the exact location. and those to need to operate their licenses. we depend on them just like every other community propriety -- more visalia been charitable with your time and we are grateful.

i will answer any questions. >> my district mostly as committee below 2500 thank you. hopefully they're paying attention. we have been signalled to call to vote early but we will break here. i don't think congress is in a hurry today. but here's the final testimony. so with that i will recessed the hearing. [inaudible conversations]

>> we will call the hearing back to order in now turn to mr. newman on behalf of the role water association for the you are recognized for five minutes. >> good morning and members of the subcommittee figure for the opportunity. i have been working for or in water systems in the mississippi delta over 20 years for drivers started off as a small city water manager that is 1,000 homes as a circuit rider for 10 years in this capacity every

one of the delta of approximately small communities to help them with their problems. currently i am working for two dozen small and assisting them with utilities. i am honored to be accompanied today by the mayor of one of the small towns from mississippi. it has a population of 1,213. of the khmer challenges are compounded by the fact that has a full-time job as a truck driver the past to handle much of the issues on his free time. the community has little professional staff because they cannot afford it the waste water system is failing because of the age and inability to meet current epa treatment. the cost to update to be compliant is approximately $2 million. the drinking water system

needs an additional $1 million of upgrades. the town was recently fined from department of the environment to equality for failure to comply with their discharge permits. currently the facility is discharging only partially treated waste water due to failure of the current treatment. just like thousands of others of communities they needed grant rich infrastructure program like usda world development program in the day the access to someone they can trust with on site assistance to manage the application and process. having 34 public water systems but only to serve populations higher in those over 10,000 persons. or training needs to be

provided so little $7 million upgrade p.m. be more readily understood for those who bear the financial burden. many small communities have received violations for the epa regulations. it is a result of the water to make it safe to drink. day limit or reduce the disinfectant levels that would comply with the regulation. but the water may no longer be safe to drink in many small communities are forced to spend limited resources to report revelations to consumers the committee was

under a boil water order over six months because of a broken coordinator. the local schools had to buy bottled water for six months after they called the mississippi rolled water association they're able to come up with the plan to come up with a new accord new dairy and revive the program to come up with the plan to revise the program to accurately assess the water to receive the payments with the emergency state revolving. in closing whenever you facing a compliance issue with the epa rule is causing people to lose water service in emergency from power loss

to tell us what it means it and what to do. to develop the trust relationship with small communities that know how to fix things to come to your town. the key for the opportunity to testify today. we are available for questions. >> it is good to have you with us. now i would like to turn to the mississippi ruled water association. estimate they cute the members of the subcommittee. for the waste water operator in a state of mississippi with the background from mississippi state park are have been blocked -- working in the water field for some to five years. event in addition to use

those of the water association they queue for his support and assistance with the public water systems across the country in small q water systems. and with the epa to prioritize this small community as most beneficial is a the small candies rely on for operations but also water in setting rates but i am told it that congress finds that epa by hands of millions every year. but the only benefit that is

directed to on-site technical assistance but bought small communities do is call this a lecter writer but they succumb to small communities teaching them how to fix their problems. providing essential health. after katrina to live with small communities were devastated. without power and water people can get by without power for a while but now without water. i called the mississippi rolled water association in a family emergency generators to living and to the communities for road charge. they were a girl to barrault generators of northern communities not impacted by

the hurricane. the circuit riders also have the typical though how to rig the system to drive the back so if needed in all this type is essential to restore water supply. i called the circuit rider out to leave the community of 1,000 homes cause a loss of water coming within visits to radar equipment to identify the location of the break that is out in the woods. congress allows all small rural communities that know watching tv can afford on their own. teeeighteen the best use of our dollars with the federalization and to the safe drinking water act have

become the main source of operators and continued education and credits which are needed every year to maintain the certification of. still leave him behind a depressed economy. so to overcome overly burdensome. just over 400 people were now told we need to comply with the epa waste water discharge permit that causes tour $3 million. with this state revolving fund read are very appreciative of congressional funding to realize funding that the regulatory burden and continues to increase to

emphasize the funding problems and low interest loans don't help the communities for federal compliance. to be used with greater ability for financing. we're very grateful for the funding assistance that allows them to have access to drinking water and sanitation that otherwise they could not afford without assistance we will come to be partners in that effort to be as successful as possible. i'm eager to answer any questions. >> our last but not least panelist is robert stewart the executive director of rural community assistance partnership. >> thank you. the think the previous

witnesses have done an excellent job to frame the issue. someone that has worked with hundreds of communities is someone who is director of the national program i'm here to tell you the needs of small communities are many and resources are of limited. said cages all a a disadvantage. i am sure every but the news in the al will not repeat things but just to make a few points i think it is to find the resources that they need and extend the line to the new customers.

>> this is not an option that all. so there are 50,000 community water systems of 4 percent have the ability to access the bond market. they are left with the two primary federal financing programs in the usda role development of our mental programs. it is critical they continue to be supported in a robust manner. there their primary lender with 18,000 plus of lowe's with small water systems in virtually unknown defaults we take these matters very seriously. one thing they have going for them is the ability to work directly with the community they know their local folks there is a more

cooperative in the easy way to get funding. with the role water association lot of the staff works around the country works through that application and process in order to get a loan from role development. epa said funds are very important part of the financing scheme for small communities. as a result of the minister the save drinking water act you is mainly to deal with compliance issues. if you look at who is out of compliance, 96 percent are from small communities. city think a big portion of the money goes to the

communities better urban or rural with compliance issues but you can look at the epa numbers perhaps 25 percent goes to small communities in this country. we think though larger amount of the many from srfs should go to small rural communities. epa does have amendments to fund that technical assistance that we have taken advantage of. is not funded at the albright level so we hope you would consider some additional resources for that particular program. also looking now what else can be done? there is a lot of other options when is the sharing of services how they get together to share a manager had to be looked at the

possibility to combined systems? but is very difficult when problem funding agencies have is easier to make it $10 million loan than it than $1 million of loans. so with those staffing levels there is an emphasis to the larger lowe's that averages adversely affects the small communities even more so they are important but really we will happen is if the technical assistance providers are working on a day in and day out basis. also quickly talk about tools the epa develops the variety of tools of asset management in sustainability again they are important to be developed but it takes

someone in the field to actually bring them out to these communities. maybe this is handled in the questions i know you were interested in alternative financing programs for komer time is up by appreciate the opportunity to be here with you today. >> now recognize myself for starting of questions. i am in my 19th year my first district of 19 counties my first was 30 counties now it is 33 out of 102. we have been able to access use rural development in rural water is and it has helped to force their regionalism agent to close the gap of water to address

the challenges small communities have because sometimes these communities are shrinking. they're not growing but shrinking. that is why a year is as successful program in digest's throw that out because we had great people were calm that. mr. goldman's commuter the witnesses claim the funds are not available for the needs of the most needy communities. is there a way to measure if the srfs is meeting the congressional reauthorize purpose? >> that is a really good question. we are aware the drinking water is required to provide

15% to the small communities. to the extent the states are doing we don't know yet. that is possibly a question for gao to look at but foreign example about 30 percent of the drinking water srfs has gone to small communities. that is the estimate out there. to the extent to meet its their needs we don't know that. >> are there any reports that show belfast the funding is spent when it goes including distribution? iroquoian of the fagins we're doing looking at financial sustainability sustainability, there will look at different ways the states are managing impair hoping to identify best

practices in that report should be coming out in the spring. >> in your testimony you state the epa state revolving fund these to be better managed to meet the small systems. can you elaborate? >> when you look at the numbers epa has a difference between the number of loans they are making and the amount. amount is the same as the number it is not actual money. but the whole purpose was to give the states of latitude to run it as they see fit because the conditions are different from state to state but i would think minimal requirements as the hyde noncompliance rates the problems with affordability in the small customer base that needs to be paid to

provide more funding and some states with the home state of texas have a lot of money now. california has done the same thing. so the states don't with the getting is good ended they have done a terrific job to look at these issues and i continue them to do so. >> briefly can you give us your success on the state revolving fund? we will go to mr. keegan first. >> we have not had much success but limitations due to their rich and the average bill does not meet the minimum to qualify for funding. we have paid to separate consulting firms in both

reported the same thing. >> in my experience one of the issues with srfs withdrawal development has been the paperwork is considered to be cumbersome. the added administrative cost to apply to nullify the low interest which in turn makes the of srfs the option of last resort which i don't believe this the intended purpose. >> yes. some of my systems that we are drilling a well right now. of course, it depends what area but it is a timely process.

in the town of monticello we have of a grant right now from what we just completed a and we have used it in this has helped put usda seems to speed that they cannot afford that much of alone. >> my time is expired. >> thank you for inviting a witness. mayor, i appreciate you making the trip here today. the great king water systems are facing significant challenges have access to safe water so i introduce the are cracked to assist

the bus systems and i appreciate the work my colleagues have done in these issues and the look forward to get these changes into law. if there is another water main breaks no money is wasted it is water in money flowing out of the pipes. with those issues in your town with water main breaks what obstacles to face to prevent these ruptures? >> with the recent frost with the water main break it doesn't always pop up because the ground is so frozen so often we don't know whether breaking is in the to have the tools or the equipment so we have to call consulting firms that could be $50,000 a day were the

association will come if they are available. it is very difficult the and we don't always know where the brakes are located. >> it is such a serious issue including that investment in technology. gao has 30 the range of career programs to provide assistance as well as what the systems face. what is the funding gap? earlier you gave a combined total? what is the funding for the infrastructure and to how much money does it entail? to make it has estimated the funding gap estimated to be $662 billion and it is based on the next 20 years.

>> thank you. obviously the water systems represented on this panel with think the resources are required so reduce support authorization to increase funding available? to talk about gramm's not just blown sand you mentioned that you could always reach the limit for the needed funds. >> absolutely. we cannot even entertain a municipal bond at this time. right now we're only spending a hour budget on repairs we don't have enough for replacement of old infrastructure. so we are looking for funding but it is the struggle. we encourage the refunding

of that. >> to support efforts to expand technical efforts. with nt technical assistance that is really a of value. but in terms of technical assistance the relevant role it might play. >> with my experience technical assistance is essential to comply with rules and regulations of the epa but in particular because they are complex and require innovative approaches though the technical assistance provided by state role water association is the essential component of compliance. >> in terms of technical assistance funding with the

srfs is very central. they need all the training they can get. the secretaries the certified them every bit of the assistance we can give is very well needed. >> i'd like to make the point the technical system is important because that is what is making in also to implement asset management programs so the infrastructure that the utility has will be maintained so we don't have to go back repeatedly to replace things to start with >> does cover some of these costs might appreciate your comments to mexico the vice

chair of the subcommittee. >> i could think of a few topics more important across the country then above the roar of are in today so thanks to each guest giving testimony today and also to the mayor to have each of you here is something we really appreciate and my friend kirby to is your integrate contact tomb but if i could become a to rescue to talk about the trust to bishop but those circuit riders. as we talk about how epa could it should comply with federal regulations among other things, please take a

minute to elaborate on the trust relationship that has with this circuit riders. >> the relationship that has been established over the years between the utility managers and the small town can lots of but just last evening the water we'll was down to snowden their lost power for a significant period of time and the mayor, of course, customs to a quite a bit and he contacted me i eight contacted their role water association and immediately they began to locate a generator for the town and

thankfully were able to get it delivered to resolve that situation. so in the sense the experience is if you have a problem and double-a-2 do you call the event they are there every time to provide assistance. >> i am glad to explain to that we actually got snowden in mississippi. in thank you for your time in words and testimony. next month in you talked about hurricane katrina that impacted our state greatly. it was the greatest most costly natural disaster in our states history. you mentioned it to water systems and the assistance

after katrina cannon to talk about the tools at their disposal that small water systems often don't have or have access to? you mentioned radar equipment but how important are these to the survival? >> very important. before katrina we had the active disaster but it is from 1969. we were without power and 120 miles from the coast and we were without power 20 days and at that time some had generators. very few but some. you can make it powerful to rig it up in the half

wherefore flowing again. is a cheap blue those but they with helpless chair do whatever we do need. the machine is $35,000. systems don't have the money so we call role water in they help us simic banks to each of you ended his great

as we work through these important issues. >> i recognize the gentleman from texas swimming thank you for holding the hearing is a the drinking water age i represent an urban district and unincorporated areas of human texas. we have the same problems it will not be and next because it could never cover the cost of private -- so areas in that district over the years in texas we received money from the state revolving fund. irrigated with fresh water in partnering with the county for services. but it bothered me texas received the lowest amount of money of 53 billion going

back to 1987. but it is deeply troubling because of the infrastructure needs in taxes in general if it is in the city they will do it but it is not attractive to the annex and that is where we need to help with septic tanks in a very urban area. that is why this hearing is important to. day you believe congress to reauthorize the fund this year? >> i'll be glad to start. yes. exactly. to ask him if he believed

increase through says regan where to raise the authorization. i explain so they could go as high as 21 tueber you still love to go back for the of monday's. >> day think the authorization amount should be raised across the country? >> if we ask for appropriations. >> yes sir. >> this is an investment the revolving fund that the states have. this is the catalyze many for use of communities large and small. >> but should they be raised ? >> over also like to add in

addition to raising funding but that deadline the is is but for the committees it is beneficial for. >> we need a change to make that happen. >> i am not so sure about the authorization of the of law as i am about the implementation of the funds and those sittings that discourage smaller communities in mississippi from pursuing those funds that they were intended to benefit the small communities where there is a gap we need to figure out how to bridge the gap. >> the biggest problem in my area is there are very poor communities they could

hardly afford the monthly bill to pay a back so that is an issue in my area i assume other parts just like texas. but you indicate you were two decades on issues but the last few years stopping at the louisiana border because from texas out west we got some could rain into those problems that were under said antonio greco how word to describe the current state? >> i would say for the most part it is pretty strong but there is a certain disadvantaged said they think needs additional resources and there is some hard hit drought areas that

need additional support. but texas has benefited because may have progressive boards and people look at this from different angles to mitt those that voted for a constitutional amendment and as much of the state was in the grips of the drought with a gene water lines with billions of gallons of water in the impact it had on the state. >> the gao made better answer that but it is in severe economic impact because of the dollar now the water sources you to the support the businesses or

the growth but water is the condition of all. >> we're overtime. >> we talk a little slow. >> the gentleman from pennsylvania is now recognized for five minutes. >> the key for being here. and informative panel. engineers looking at their role water systems could state-owned a that states impose our own requirements for your courage you please for those that our different from debt epa standards. >> and maybe he can

elaborate your corrected by a wrong but i believe that our state regulation is exactly the same as the federal guidelines with no more or no less stringent. >> that's is corrected on thank our regulations to be a more strict than the way it is written. >> i might note that epa regulates water quality. some states require oil production or treatment plant for storage hands they adverse effects will committees. because so more in in they are dealing with the extension spilling but these

are the capacity requirements is sometimes in his capacity. but. >> how much was is to bring to a drinking water systems? some of you were alluding to the cost issues talking about to be the engineer does anybody have those estimates. >> with all the consulting the that we spend the spirit is anybody else have any thoughts?

>> and you were talking about the small community. >> what type of treatment to treat for but doggerel systems get the funds that they need? >> i heard one comment if the federal government changes standards sometimes i think it is unfair now you must bear the cost but it comes down to a question of how are they born often times and there is a huge cost associated with this. >> we just raise their rates. is required the local school

district to be a municipal water so they pass that price alone to the taxpayers at quite a considerable expense spinnaker percentage increase? in iraq are not sure. is director raising rates are the only way that is the only option they have sometimes in the 10 or 20% range. >> i know that some of my communities are asking for changes the way the loans are established in the comments on those? >> the paper work is quite cumbersome and usually we have to have a higher people to help us apply for the lowe's. >> what does it added to the

cost? period we don't have the staff that can understand with is required. we give them fed data will read use everyday stick repressive the flying paperwork and also to provide assistance so then we don't get the chance for your recognized for five minutes sooner thank you to the panel for being here. the county commissioner would count for six years. and and handled a lot of water and sewer issues will also created a regionals to register because my home county was 600 square miles.

21 villages 19 townships in the levin incorporated areas. it is important to hear from all of you brings back memories that i sat in a lot of meetings to hear people talk about important issues sandino highly have $21 billion right now so full of water to waste or storm water, so what you say today is very important to really appreciate you being here because we can commiserate with what you have all said also hoping on the waste water side. but if i could this spirit

but there is a shortage of dollars out there is special talking about the role areas. can you discuss the relationship between the epa with the efficiencies that could occur if you're looking at these programs to make sure there were snow duplication? >> we have looked and also let the other agency to have programs to help communities. but with respect to the utility's service they do have similar programs we did not find any duplicating effort projects can get funding by usually they

focus in a different area. what we reported on is for those two agencies to work together to collaborate to work closely with the utility's service so they can get efficiencies. stowe the last one for finding those things that have come up but to work together to better target the money? >> mrs. .

a the costs of the assistance. spee refer there is a variety actuals we bring manhattan but the press the excess in but whether it is asset banishment or financial management or whatever the tools might be their real the expense is paid off to the small communities.

>> would you like to touch on that? >> to reiterate the comments of mr. stewart from the perspective of the water system manager the resources it is in viable because there are very issues that over across a waste water system that could be beyond the scope of the utility are the financial capability. so that is absolutely essential. >> to go in several directions with says we have heard horror stories with

felt little town in west virginia we have a slide it shows how the line is. knowing this they have applied 10 times to try to get 90 and there we're rejected 10 times in 2002. three just don't have the money. and but if we give 40% reduction but they that that was a bigger purveyed into

front our parole board error prone homes but i am confused about the regulatory burden. because a lot of you have been talking it is about rural america. and that we stay focused on rural america because but with that synergy of them quite familiar but these are pools the small cities have to deal with just as much as the larger community.

i have three of their communities but they're trying to find money for the operation in love alone when committee is working in the 19th century system. >> how can we get money for operations? we have one the committee that there is dumping raw sewage because they don't have money to do the meet its work a half to do. others give it through water buffalo this is 2015 in america but yet we have the administration and tell this year has been reducing money to the srfs. how are they feeling our country when we don't put enough money ahoy but should

be the perfect? >> i think all of us would agree a greater percentage of those should go to small canadian access it. tuna have been since the hint and had to give nine seasons. that's is in lowe's. >> you even have a chance we need some assistance.

>> generally with but that is the canadian one area but the basin uncertain off but they give your image senator now recognize the gentleman from ohio for five minutes. >> i represent appellation of ohio and i don't have to

tell you how role that is. i hear the horror stories many of which you just heard i could cite similar cases h'm if you see how bad the role that area but i have seen this for a long time. mr. gomez says the idea of a track in regards to all urban and rural systems? how many municipalities have systems charge the true cost to provide water to customers? how many are in the red? >> there is so is one area that is but if we do have to

give back to you i would. >> i think the american people would be interested to know how the small rural communities are struggling and they are operating in the red as it stands right now because the residents cannot even afford it. >> for the we have to wait for the infrastructure projects with the rate payers and what it would be paying. >> absolutely. i have role areas the letter under that exact pressure. they don't have the many because of the economy they'll have the money to comply with the epa cleaved water mandate.

anger and their level with the fines that they also cannot pay. is to get blood out of return of. is tough. let me ask you a question. mr. newman your testimony mentions the town of columbia university and the of has the upgrades the the the it's what is the annual operating budget? >> it is approximately $150,000 annually. >> what is the average income of the residence? >> 21,000 is a more realistic possibility? the mechanism the aberration

in packwood did be enough to address the crew said they supported two-step chap but there are limits to other lending sources. it is double-edged because the question itself says why don't you go into debt? that is another principle that i subscribe to but are you considering other sources? but by and large primarily because of the grant component in other options include the state revolving fund even commercial lending but it is 100 percent loans

in the interest rates are typically higher. but at its eden case that they cannot afford to borrow the money over which to spread the costs but what challenges but how does that compare but that does not compete with the funding. >> others give an elaborate but you have more help to apply in the cost to apply to have to utilize services from a consultant but adds

to the costs of this typically not the case. >> we have been able to use that. would ever they allow for the attorney or an engineer he does the paper work that is specified in the loan. we have been able to take advantage of some money through rural development. >> my time is expired. >> darr accessing funds the there from new york state or the funding those he will have the the shinseki we are sorry about the but of the

pile. >> nil i appreciate you having this hearing so we can share how difficult it is to do this. >> a think my ranking member and vice chair bitter trying to feed their charge. the gentleman from north dakota. >> thank you. for acknowledging role america and reminding us there are other places known for there urban centers. it is clear to have an alliance. my constituents of north dakota the association would be very proud of you you have done it did job today even with the unusual accents. [laughter] is a reminder of what we

work together on that our important. i hear a lot about the circuit rider program is to raise a very important issue it is important as policy makers to look for opportunities to prioritize but agreed to have to be creative. one to rest for a little bit of collaboration but i think it is a suze the alphabet soup as it is referred to with the recommendation for multiple agencies that have

the tendency so looking and effective government but having terms we can duplicate this one of the frustrations i have seen is not just epa but as the house or congress that makes perfect sense you will have to hire the engineering firm

? so maidenly thanks for that. there lies the nuggets of the opportunity to demonstrate functionality in a way that people expect not so well. >> and we are tracking that we want to make sure the agencies are making progress some innovative things to all of you i will leave time on the clock. thank you for being so patient i will yield back to anything else you want to say a lot to commend it is

not inside bed advocacy there front-line experience it is the impact of the decisions that are made but 84 reinforcing that is a high priority with the statements you have made and provided. >> to also thank you for being here and to see to be an agreement to for word so you can say there is there is this because they're

small i appreciate the involvement of my colleagues i have some business to do to have five legislative days to submit for the record. . .