aumf with isil as you understand your role -- i attended a briefing a couple months ago somebody was here from the state department, and we talk about current rules of engagement pertaining to afghanistan with the train-advise and -- i as we know isil is networking all over the part of the world we know isil is looking around and recruiting in afghanistan. my question was, under this current operation you're under, if isil's identified by american troops afghan national security forces and are trained and advised and assist mode that we're in, can we absolutely destroy isil when they're identified and the answer from the state department, no, ma'am, they would not be considered a threat to the united states at that point. my comment was i would consider the fact that we're at war with them and the mere excessins of isil means we should destroy them in your role right now what is your understanding when isil

is identified? are they taken out or given a pass? >> thank you for your question. we don't talk about rules of engagement obviously in the tactics and techniques and procedures that go with that. i would just answer that and say i'm comfortable with the authorities i have today that i can prosecute the mission both from a ct perspective and from a train, advise and assist perspective, and also protect the forces i have. i can't go into the rules -- >> i understand. >> in this environment. >> i would other like to have a conversation or some kind of followup at that time takes about that. >> absolutely. >> and then also, with this new aumf what's the difference going to be in how you can engage isis now? do you see further gains -- more advantages than you do now? >> i haven't seen the final written document that has gone through. i've glanced through pieces of. i know there's no geographical boundaries which would happen in afghanistan. i'd have to do a more detailed look. right now i have the authorities that i need to be able to

prosecute the ct and the train, advise and assist mission i have. i can come book to you on the aumf and how that impacts '15, and more importantly for me as we transition into '16 and beyond. >> in relation to the size of troops and troop strengths 10,000, 5,000, compared to what you're doing right now, what additional kinds of missions and what additional kind of coverage do you have right now that you're going to lose? if that's something we can't talk about here, i'd like to have a conversation about that. we're talking about drawing down from 10,000 to 5,000. what do we actually lose there? and again what steps are in between there that talk about for our purposes of the train, assist and -- assist the afghany forces. what does that mean? how much coverage are the afghan forces going to be having to do on their san antonio what does that mean as far as risk? i understand probably can't talk about that here but i want to follow up answers to those

questions so we know as members of congress, who are voting on the new iaum there is a plan and we're not going to -- i don't think anybody can take anybody's word for anything. we may have all the faith in the world of this new president but we see how things can change on a dime and we owe it to the american public to see there is a plan, even in a classified setting. so i look forward to your responses. i yield back my time. >> thank you ma'am. >> mr. o'rourke. >> thank you mr. chairman. general, i'd first like to thank you and those who serve and have served under you including the bulldog big grade from fort bliss in el paso, texas, for the incredible job you are doing and have none afghanistan, and i join my colleagues in just thanking you for this terrific performance, which goes beyond any claims that someone could make or anecdote but actually by

the numbers and bill the pictures, and what my colleagues were able to see in their recent visit. i agree with many comments made so far i think there are many lessons we can apply from your success, this country's success in afghanistan, to our operations and objectives in iraq. when it comes to the proposed aumf we're considering to combat isis my understanding that the immediate goal is to stop isis and ultimately to degrade, defeat and destroy isis. what is our goal in afghanistan relative to the taliban? >> sir thanks. i do believe that, again, on the aumf -- -- maybe in a closed hearing we can do that. on the taliban piece, would tell

you our goal is to build the afghan capacity both in their police and in their army to be able to have the secure stable afghanistan for the future. the taliban and their message is not having any traction with the afghan people. as i said in my opening comments it is time for the afghan taliban to look at what they're trying to do and become part of the political progress. president ghani in his inauguration speech opened the door for them to come back and work hard on reconciliation, which could be a game-changer down the road. that has to work with pakistan and where tray go and afghanistan as they build their security force capability. i do believe that they want to get the taliban to where they are part of the afghan vision moving forward and kill ago afghans is not part of the vision. and so they have to operate from a position of strength and i think 352,000 afghan security forces and other 30,000 afghan

local police with them that capability, and the taliban now are looking around and saying the coalition forces signed a psa, a sofa they're going to provide train, assist and advise, but we have been trying to hereby -- we have 20 come in -- we have to come inch it's because the afghan security force drive this, not the coalition. >> to that point we're seeing record casualties and losses from the afghan security forces, and thankfully and much to do i think with your leadership and the service of our men and women tone ground diminished casualties from coalition forces, or military commanders have asked for additional flexibility. something i think makes a lot of sense, and fully endorse. given the lessons we learned from iraq and are learning from

iraq. i'm assuming that flexibility includes the ability for air strikes, raids against terrorists and those who seek to do us harm. to the degree you can offer clarity, what will you have to see on the ground in that country to recommend that we no longer need that flexibility and that we can meet our -- in 2016, our goal of having normal embassy level of protection? again, through numbers or as clearly as you can describe what that condition has to look like for you to make that recommendation. >> sure. if i could address the casualty piece first and tell you is a talk about, five to seven percent, probably larger, more increasing than 2013 but again, if you put it in context it is about the operational tempo that both the police and army had,

four times greater than in 2013, and 100,000 coalition were not out there. so it was expected that casualties would rise. one casualty is too much. what we continue to focus on is, one, continue to improve the afghan capability to reduce the wounded and works on their med-evac and doctors and combat medics and life-saver capabilities. that continues to progress. and then also the recruiting piece. they've got that much better. they don't recruit all year around like our service do they stop during the summer and the fighting season. now they've got a process in place to do it year, round and doesn't ebb and flow like that. the casualty piece is not from -- the attrition rate is not just based on casualties. the number one reason is leadership and making sure they have the right leadership. so what it would take moore me to recommend that we continue transition and work a glide

slope differently would be to make sure the seams and gap wes fired for a very long time we need to continue to work on the afghan security forces and ministries, we rev gotten them to a level they can have the processes without it. the areas of aviation, we build up. their close air support. when we're building their close air support. and when i gate request that says, can you fly close air support, asked them first you have a quick reaction force. have fire your mortars or artillery, taken your 17s on system you have a few mi30s. have you used those? we try to get those out there to make sure they're work through the processes we are working md530 abilities helicopter, 250 caliber machine guns on the sides. they won't have much for the next fighting season but that will continue to develop, and we're working on a fixed wing

capability to provide support in the future. once we get the aviation support and get their intelligence, wok on their sustainment. continue build their special forces capability i'd feel much better as the close the gaps on the seams we had out there. >> thank you. >> thank you mr. chairman. general, the president stated policy is to take our strength from 10,800 troops in afghan down to 5,000 tropes by the end of 2015. in your best professional military judgment is that the right end strength at the end of 2015? >> it's about 5500 by the end of december, and the options i provided i think provide flexibility both for president ghani and as the commander on the ground to take a look at force protection and how to get after the train, advise and assist. >> in 2014 the afghan security force lost over 20,000 personnel

to dissessions and deaths. does that -- desertions and deaths. does that concern you? >> the numbers, if you put them into cop text we are working to make sure that doesn't have an impact and hasn't had a severe impact on readiness. any dissergeants or casualty would concern me, concerns their leadership, concerns the president, but again, it is about having processes in place to bring those people onboard to keep them in and it really isn't about the combat casualties. that's a fraction of it. but a lot of the dissergeants is on leadership and make shearing people are looking at them and saying, are they getting paid? have the right living condition. >> theirs a correlation between our drawdown our cutting troop biz half and their dessertations. >> my gut would tell me know. >> you cause the islamic state. as the commander of u.s. forces

in afghanistan you suggest that isis is your priority -- one of your priority intelligence requirements custom share with the panel -- what's going on with isis in afghanistan. >> py r, party intelligence requirement, have several of those. that's not my only pir so as we tack a look -- and talking to president ghani, we did a deep dive with all the security agencied and intel agencies inside of afghanistan to look at what they were doing. i said i need to learn more about this, and one way is to make it a pir for my intel folks, so as we go through a number of thing wed take a look at as we allocate resources, because it is a pir it will get more -- a bert looker at and it provide me more continued updates on that. that's why i did that. again, concern for president ghani and concern for me.

could grow rapidly. at this state, the term that's been out there is nascent. it is a nascent organization but again, as we talk about, it agree very quickly in iraq and syria. they have the potential to jump over different stages and build a network and we want to make sure we're looking at the heart. so making it a pirgys me better visibility. >> pret reports indicate that rau ow f was killed in afghanistan in a drone stroke help was called a figure actively recruiting for isis in afghanistan, specifically helmund, where coalition troops withglue october. can you confirm these reports? >> this is in the "washington post." >> yes, sir. it's been a lot in the media. rauf kadeem, was designated as a deputy amir of isil inside afghanistan,ty amir of what the call a core son, which is

pakistan,s afghanistan, in that area, was actually a ttp from pakistan so this was the guy that said i'm the deputy amir. some -- >> before you -- i've got one minute left. so a few more questions -- >> the answer is yes. >> okay, you're aware. when you think about rauf, he was taliban commander, detained at gitmo, released. we turned him over to the afghanistan detention facility where he escaped and became a recruiter for isis. are you aware of all this? >> i'm aware from gitmo he was under afghan control if don't know detail only the escape. >> look at the ndaa we have to make decisioned about gitmo. does it concern you our troops in afghanistan are fighting the same enemy twice? >> it concerns me they're fighting any enemy. if it's once or twice i'd have the same concern,. >> in your best military judgment is closing gitmo at

this time knowing that 30% of the people are going back into the war is that good or bad judgment? >> that's a policy question. i'm a military guy. i don't want to get drug into that policy. i want to make sure i have the ability cans if people are come bag into afghanistan i have the ability to make sure i'm comfortable with the assurances that afghanistan or whatever country makes when they release people and turn them over to another country, have the ability to understand what assurances we have these people will not attack coalition forces again. i want to make sure i'm tied into that. >> thank you mr. breezy. >> thank you mr. chairman. i want to ask the general a couple of questions based on the popular opinion poll he gave us here, and i was talking about afghans expressing confidence in the new government. do you have any sort of sense of how afghan feels as far as

confidence is concerned with afghan capabilities post u.s. or u.s. -- post u.s.-draw-down? >> again, like anything else i think they understand the capable that just having the coalition with them provides and a lot of it is just giving system confidence. as i've taken a look at close air support as an example gunshot asked, i need close air support. i tell the afghans don't plan your operation dependent on close air support. the taliban doesn't have close air support or humvees or how winters doesn't have the weapons you have. so, a part of it is just leadership again and then having the confidence to take the fight to the enemy. itself you go on the streets of kabul and engage in 80% percent of the people they would tell you they're thankful for the cools, they want the coalition around. they're more comfortable if they

have coalition because it knows from helping out security forces and also provides then the opportunity to engage. i think they would tell you that they fell comfort able with the coalition presence. >> all right. exactly. what about with a u.s. drawdown and how would that be perceived in the terror community? how do you think that people in the terror community wonder if the taliban or outside of the taliban, outside of afghanistan how do they view the afghan capability as far as being able to protect their own country? >> sir thanks. i'd go back if i can answer the last one a little more in detail there was at different points in time a sense of abandonment if you talk to some afghans but for the most part the security forces as they get the message out and show the people of afghanistan what they've capable of that increases their confidence that the afghan security forces can handle this.

so there was easterly on some abandonment type discussion going on. i have not seen that, quite frankly, in the last several months at the afghan security forces continue to get better and better. on the terror community that you talked about, i think they were thinking that the coalition would be gone after 2014. and that they would wait that out. i think with the ps and sofa signed they understand that for many, many years, we'll have continued commitment by the international community to remain in afghanistan, both in some number butanals resources provided to afghanistan, and again, think that the time has come they have to become part of the political process and get back into being part of afghanistan. they can't have afghans killing afghans and muslims killing muslim. it's a sign of strength that president ghani on his first day of office signed the bs and sofa and the message sent to the terrorist community is we

thought it was going away and it's not. >> thank you mr. chairmaned. lead back my time. >> thank you. mr. cook. >> thank you mr. chairman. general first of all is i want to commend you on your testimony, your years of service and combat piece, can't add up all the deprime ministers you have been through. so what i wanted to address is something that isn't here and it's of concern to our nato partners. maybe under the radar. that's the situation of the poppy, and the drugs and the corruption that -- from a rational viewpoint it affects europe. how are we doing on -- can you comment on the status of that and where it's going right now? >> sir, thank you for the question. there's been a lot of different reports on the cultivation of poppies and what the impact it has financially for the

insurgents in the area. a lot of that coming out of the helmund area. media reports say that increased over the last couple of years as opposed to going down president ghani talked about and it is looking hard at a strategy at how he goes after that and deals with the people that produce it, that deals with the insurgents thattite for their gain. they looked at different options one there they have quite good record of a small task force that goes after and seizes different places and for lack of a better term, drug labs that produce what comeds out of there, but quite frankly, has not been enough and the strategy there has not taken that away from the insurgents. that is not part of my taa or part of my ct mission. so i can't comment further on that piece of it, but bottom line it does provide fuel, financial assistance to the taliban, and we have -- and the

government of afghanistan is looking hard how they combat that. >> thank you. the relationship with -- has improved with the military. the equipment. at one time we were always concerned about the equipment bang -- backlog going through pakistan. are we in pretty good shape right now? he had cop tapers stacked up to the sky and just a quick update. >> thank you for the question. the logistical community and what our nation has done with retrograde of equipment is phenomenal. when people look at this and fully understand the amount of equipment that came out and how it came out this is record-setting. and we're on glide path now and we -- all the numbers we thought we needed to hit coming out of the mission to where we are today, we're on those numbers if feel vert comfortable.

it ebbs and flows how we do that based on the relationship with pakistan, but the relationship with afghan and pakistan is the best i have seen and lat of that is because of the chief of the army in president and then president ghani and how they come together but the retrograde is on a glide slope it have no concerns there. >> i was very happy to hear that. i wasn't to switch spheres real quick. uzbekistan in the north. land locked country. i think they have to have good real estates with pakistan. iran's a whole new ball game as you know. what the relationship with us a beck stan right now? i know at one time they're working on the bridge or i think it was the train going down there. is that still ongoing or >> i haven't seen a final piece where they've signed an mou,

memorandum of understanding. i know that president ghani has personally reached out to all the countries in the region. he has visited many of them. i don't think in the last couple of months he visited uzbekistan but has talked to the senior leadership and they talk about the bridges and sharing of intelligence back and forth how and how they can fight different insurgents, a lot in the north is around criminal activity as opposed to insurgent piece. there's arms trafficking, drug traffic. so they're working together hitch has sent senior members of his administration to different countries around. i can find out but i know that -- i think several members of season positions in afghan have visit uzbekistan as well. >> thank you for your service. i yield back. >> miss duckworth. >> thank you mr. chairman. general, thank you for being here today. at a time of sequestration, when we are cutting our funding for u.s. forces here in the u.s. and

looking at everything from shutting down commissaries on bases to adjusting retirement benefits for forces, we're looking at future expenditures in afghanistan. i have concerns that we have sufficient oversight how the afghans are spending the money wire providing them with the resource, and specifically you mentioned their lack of self-sustaining capability. i'd like too look at their ability to account for personnel. we talked about already the over 20,000 attrition in the afghan forceses that has been reported. i rely on the special inspector general's -- for afghan reton instruction's report as too what's going there on and i see there have been some real concerns. the numbers of afghan military and police forces fluctuates

significantly, sometimes from quarter to quarter by as much as 20,000 or 40,000 personnel. i'm worried we're spending this money, not spending as mush on our u.s. forces here, but those 40,000 troop fluctuations, are those best case scenario and accounting error? those folks were never there or they quit or were we paying for folks that were never there? ghost soldiers that were on the books. so, can you talk at bit about how we are providing oversight for the afghans and help to them to figure out how they can gate handle on their forces and how they're spending this money we're providing? >> yes, ma'am. thank you for your service as well. that's always a very very tough, complex thing to get your hands around people. in our own army, as you know, we have hard time sometimes figuring out exactly who is

present for duty and who is not. many figures you have seen in the last several days on numbers -- first off, we need to make sure that members of congress have total transparency on everything that we're doing inside of afghanistan, and we're committed to provide cga and congress everything they need to do that. some things are classified and back in august so this is nat new story but back in august when i got through asked to take a look at all information going out to the press and everybody else, and i said anything that is readiness data and sometimes numbers of people and how you take a look at that could be construed as readiness data. i said anything that is readiness dat for a the afghans need to be classified. we can't just put them out because beer wholly dependent on the afghans for our own force protection i need have their readiness dat classified. the u.s. army's readiness dat

tase classified all service dat tis classified. so that decision was made in august. i re-affirmed with president ghani inch tact he approached me about having that kind of data classified. and again here in the last two week or so i went back and said i want too make sure you're comfortable because i'm getting asked a lot of questiones on this. he was absolutely adamant that afghan data that pertained to readiness data was classified. so i feel very comfortable and have not changed my mind. readiness data is classified. ...

where members of potentially cigar went to a lower headquarter in number so we have to do a much better job at my headquarters to make sure we have processes in place that we can provide the right data at the right time. we have to have a better procedure to do that and we are working on that. i just signed a standard operating procedure to consolidate how we worked out. we have over 50 probably 62 different audits going on inside of afghanistan from sigar to aaa to dod ig 60-plus and so as we transition i don't have the people in the country to do all

that. i'm dependent upon reach back or otherwise and we have to come up with a way to figure out how we provide audit data but at the same time continue to transition. i don't have the capability and i have to raise that with my own leadership as we go forward. the numbers is on the last couple of days i think there's a miscommunication. what i learned from "the new york times" not be sigar that these numbers will be replaced. i contacted sigar and said we need to take a hard look at this data you are getting to release. i don't think it's right. i learned him to that and they stopped the release of that peace and we are looking hard at how we can continue to work making sure every piketty -- everybody gets the right data. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you. mr. scott. >> general thanks for being here. if there's one thing we have learned over the last several months it is that the people of the country have to be willing to hold that country and i'm

speaking specifically of iraq. afghanistan obviously had a very different country. i think from the context of the american citizen may be the way talking about perception it's all one and the same issue if you will. and i do think that we need to do a better job of getting that message out when we do have the victories because all of america is hearing right now is the bad that is happening in the middle east so thank you for your service. one of the issues you talked about a couple of times close air support. obviously in north afghanistan to be a success they have to hold the country from the taliban and other terrorist organizations. we are hopefully completely out of their the afghanistan air force, the 829 light air support mission right now is currently they are being trained at the air force base. if you speak to that element in

and how critical it is, the air support being able to carry out their own air support long-term hand how many 829 steel expects we should be prepared to provide for the afghanistan air force? >> thanks for the question and again we are very thankful in georgia that they have the capability to provide the training for the a29's. it's a long process. looking in hindsight i wish it would have started that years ago and it ago and they do have that capability but we are where we are and what's happening in training the pilots in training the maintainers for this fixed-wing close air support capability is critical for afghanistan as we move into the future. quite frankly we can't get it quick enough for them. the current program has about 20 aircraft over the next three years that will come to afghanistan. we won't have money for this fighting season.

we will get some at the end of the year and a couple more before they started fighting season 16 but most of them will come out and 17 and 18 so that's the reason we need to have this train advise-and-assist for the next several years on the air force base. but it's a great capability and they're looking forward to it. i think it will give them and the people in that region will understand the afghans have this air support capability. we will work that another way seminar term with forward firing machine guns with mv 530 this little bird i talked about and they have indirect fire mortars at the 30 howitzers that will continue to work with them on different ways to improve that capability. this is a huge pass their looking forward forward to to get into afghanistan. >> again we have to make sure that when we leave that country that country is prepared to hold and govern themselves.

just the situation in iraq right now is certainly lessons learned the hard way if you will. mr. chairman i don't have any further questions. thank you for the a29 mission at the air force base. i would be happy to have you down there and with that ideal the remainder of my time. >> mr. courtney. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you general for your endurance and service. tomorrow night at the state armory in hartford there's going to be a sendoff for the connecticut army national guard 182nd police battalion. we are heading off to afghanistan and first of all they were given noticed almost 60 days ago to the day that they were being sent over and i realize this is not sorted in your lane in terms of making the decisions about reaching into guard and reserve units. what i would say is that frankly

there are folks who are scratching their heads that if we are to force level of 10,000 you know guard and reserves i think there's an understanding and acceptance back during the surge days when we had hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east tapping into the guard at this point and frankly doing it with almost the bear notice required by law as something that again folks are struggling with. so first of all i guess i would ask you and i don't mean to put you on the spot if you are in front of those families tomorrow night what you would share with them and i'm not asking you to explain the decision-making process because i realize that happened somewhere else in terms of your command. but again as their leader in afghanistan what would be your thoughts that you would share with the family's? >> sir thank you and again all of our service could not do what

we do without our military families so i thank them for their sacrifice, for having to allow us to have that soldier continued to serve. i tell them what they are getting ready to do to things. it's a very important mission and will mean a great deal to the afghan people but also provide for our security back here. i would ask them to watch out for each other and always take care of brothers and sisters on their left and right to make sure force protection is always foremost in mind and to never get complacent. they do have a very important job. many times would i tell the soldiers and sailors and marines over there is sometimes they're too close to it and they can't see some of the changes we talked about earlier and people serve for different reasons. but they do serve because they know they are serving for the greater good and when i come to afghanistan i tell them whatever you do make that place better than when he found it. i think i've seen over the years that we have continued to do that. they will have an impact on whatever they do, whoever they

touch and sometimes it's an impact that they can put into words. i would tell you their service would be honored and they will feel good about what they have done after they leave. i can't speak to the service provider piece, only for many years our national guard and u.s. army reserve have played an important role both in iraq and afghanistan and we continue as we move forward so i appreciate their service. >> will thank you and i will share those thoughts. frankly, as we wrestled with the drawdown in force reduction and sequestration in the budget control act is sort of has reignited a little bit of this sort of tension about whether or not the guard and reserve are in parity in terms of the rest of the forces and began the fact that they got this order to head over again at a time when maybe the average person wouldn't

think that is consistent with the rest of the force level underscore simi the value that active duty still believes exists in terms of the guard and reserve units. they have done yeoman's work during both conflicts in iraq and afghanistan. and you know they deserve all the kudos and appreciation that they can possibly give them so again thank you for your comments and i will pass them along and i yield back. >> thank the gentlemen. mr. jones. >> mr. chairman thanks and mr. mr. -- general campbell thank you for your new staff for being here today. i'm going to take a little different approach. i looked at your narrative in the comments by the senator who is retired and he says i cite these opinion polls that we haven't achieved anything and he's critical of the people who don't think we have achieved anything by saying they end up

with the people that are 7000 miles away think we haven't. i would say to the senator it's those people back home that are paying the bills. they need to get something out of the tax dollars that they are paying. when we went into afghanistan in 22,000 month a debt of our nation was $5.95 trillion. today it is over $18 trillion in debt and you know from your brothers and sisters in the military what we are faced with budgets. then i read in a blog from yesterday by jason dietz between casualties and assertion afghan military is shrinking fast. the desertion problem is a long-standing one with many afghans signing up for the military sticking around long enough to get their first

paycheck and then bailing and often taking their weapons with them as they sort of severance package. then in the guardian yesterday afghan officials sanction murda -- murder torture and rape says the report and i realize this is from human watch. we can have our views on that whether it's a liberal group or a conservative group whatever that's fair but they still write this and apparently there has been no dispute it and i'll just read one paragraph. the report focuses on eight commanders and officials across afghanistan, some of them counted among countries is powerful men and key allies for foreign troops. some are accused of personally inflicting violence and others of having responsibility for government forces that commit the crimes. i know some good things that happen have happened that i don't question that at all but afghanistan has been proven a

wild west. but my concern is, we have nine more years of a financial commitment and a military commitment which might be limited in numbers but they are still young men and women walking the roads to be shot at it and have their legs blown off. i just wonder because when congress are going to be grappling with sequestration issues. the chairmen and ranking member who are doing a great job are very concerned about the military budget. i think all of us here are as well. i know i am and camp lejeune in my district that i get to a point that i just want to not talk about you. you are an outstanding and great military person but will there ever be any one in the diplomatic corps or the military that says you know we have done about all we can do?

some things are impossible. yes, some people will benefit but when i read reports like this whether they be from the left or the right, pat buchanan is one of my biggest euros. ron paul is one of my dearest friends and i continue to see nine more years of spending money that we don't have so we can decrease the number and our military? it doesn't make any sense. i know you don't make the policy decisions and i understand that but will there ever be someone who follows behind you and follows behind me that will be honest to the congress and the american people have to pay the bill? have we done about as much as we can do? >> sir thanks for the question. sir i would answer it like this. again, quite frankly this is the world we live in. it may not be the world they want and i think the complexity of the world we live in is a generational piece that's going

to go on long after you and i are out of here and we need to understand that and look at it as a generational issue and put strategies and policies in place that will get up this long term. not going to change overnight and i think we just have to change our mindset on on where we are at it i think the american people are well served by the great men and women who continue to raise their right hand and serve knowing that they can go into harm's way knowing that despite trying to do something bigger than themselves that they are going to face going into services that's going to have budget issues that's going to take it away so i think this is a long-term issue we have to get out. but i am pleased about is you know you mentioned all those different ports and there are challenges not only in afghanistan but i do see afghanistan as a place because of the significant investment in lives and financial that we have provided to them that this can be the bright spot that this is

for lack of a better better term and strategic plan that will carry on in this part of the world that is a very complex dangerous part and for little continued investment we can make this a shining light on central asia and that part of the world. i think we have to start someplace and afghanistan is the good news story among all these other bad things that are coming out. for every bad news report you just mentioned are probably nine or 10 good news that doesn't get out because as you know good news doesn't sell. i give president gandhi a good new storyboard that i collect each week that i have my commanders provide me me with a good new storyboard that talks about the good things about answer doing in different areas. when i meet with him i say dr. abdullah here are some good stories. you are not hearing about it in the news that you need to know this is out here and they give him 10 or 15 powerpoint slides with pictures sewing -- showing good news stories in afghanistan

and that word doesn't get out because it doesn't sell. for every suicide that went often coupled there were nine or 10 that were stop so there is good news out there. >> thank you very much mr. chairman, general campbell. thank you for your challenging leadership in afghanistan. i want to quote the 2015 national security strategy in staying quote we must recognize a smart national security strategy does not rely solely on military power. indeed in long-term efforts to work with other countries to counter the ideology and the root causes of violent extremist will be more important. i strongly support this approach general however i am also concerned the persistence we have shown in afghanistan and our presence there can have harmful effects on our long-term readiness. as we drive down to a force capable in protecting our

security interest in the region how will we capitalize and we utilize the equipment, the novas was brought up earlier, that we currently have in the country to protect the readiness of our total force, specifically can you comment on retrograde efforts as they are supported in the fy16 budget and what impact sequestration would have on this effort if sequestration is not repealed? >> thank you maam and thank you for your visit last fall as well well. i haven't looked at the numbers for the retrograde portion for fy16. i will tell you we will continue to need the necessary resources and financial peace to bring back the retrograde rehab in afghanistan so we can put that back into the force. probably 80% of that dallas for the army but the best equipment we have is in have is an afghanistan salinity continued to make sure we get that back get it reset and get that into the force that i do think we are on a glide slope to do that.

we have concerns a year, year and a half ago commander on the ground i don't have the same concerns and we continue to get that back to the army. sequestration from a different perspective i think will impact the readiness of all of our services and again that's why think the service chairman come out and it will have a bad bad impact if we go into sequestration. >> thank you very much general. my second question is recently the first lady of afghanistan said women come to me and say you have forgotten us. i am a strong champion of women's rights and i wonder what can we do working with the afghans and nato to ensure women's rights are respected across the country as we continue to draw down our forces. how are we encouraging are working with the afghan government to ensure greater inclusion of women in civic society? a few years back i traveled with then speaker, leader pelosi and

we visited many of the women leaders in afghanistan and they were very concerned about the future so can you comment on that general? >> thank you maam and we work very hard both in the coalition perspective but president ghani looks hard at how he is working on the gender issues both promote military perspective security perspective in getting women in place and getting in the 25 million that congress approved for the specifically pinpointing to work on these types of issues is very helpful and we are thankful for that support. but it will take time for the police and the army and the police are doing much better than the army quite frankly on integrating women into the forest but we will look very hard as we go through it at the cultural differences they have and make that a little bit tougher. i think they are both committed from the mo i perspective minister of interior and i will engage the minister of defense.

i've engage the chief of army on this. they are always at ways on how they can improve i want to say 24% of parliament as women. i don't think we have that in our own congress so that's very good in afghanistan. president ghani and the first lady have pressed on this in and reaching out as well. i do have a gender adviser for my force from australia that focuses on a lot of different focuses. she engages with their nato partner forces as well to make sure we are doing everything we can to enrich this and continue to keep emphasis on it. >> thank you very much general for your comments and i yield back mr. chairman. >> thank the gentlelady. dr. one strum. >> general thank you so much for your service and taking on the mission that you are taking on. it's encouraging to see the

positives that we don't often hear about. i would agree with you wholeheartedly. i think it was a great move by ghani to be in the sofa and that bodes well for all of us. i think it was probably wise from where i sit for ghani and abdul to come together as partners. my question to you is what are you saying as far as that relationship between the two of them and its effect on any national unity in afghanistan? >> sir thanks, it's a great question. look at this every day and i think both president ghani and dr. abdullah gave up some to continue to have afghanistan move forward. they both did that after a long period there. they work together and spicy mouth up -- both of them together and separately i think they complement each other as they work together. they both have great vision for where they want to take afghanistan and it really is the

people around each of them. they have to continue to work through it and they have run into instances where they have had differences but i think they work hard to make sure as they come out to the public that they have one voice as they move forward. that's not easy all the time but i think they understand how important is so they work toward that from a security perspective and an economic perspective. again they complement each other and i'm honored to have them and engaged with both of them quite a few times. >> in that sense does that carry over into the military in some ways as far as that goes teeshon amongst the military and the moral within the military and afghan forces? >> president ghani is the commander-in-chief and he said that upfront. his interaction with all the security forces is completely different than under president karzai. their morale has gone way up

knowing they have welfare. they visit their wanted in the hospitals and talking to them about changing the authority for corps commanders. he has video teleconferences several times since i've been with him with the senior leadership great he has a national security council meeting every week that he brings in the senior leadership from the police and the army. they are thankful that they do have the commander-in-chief that is taken not only their own welfare but also their families welfare as they look at different ways to about ways to about wanted warriors and those kinds of things. it is quite good. >> with that in mind since they have not been in office very long do you anticipate, the question has come up a couple of times about the deserters. do you anticipate that rate will slow down as a result hopefully?

>> president ghani what he has tried to do is put leadership and that can make a difference so he has taken a hard look at all of those generals. he has retired on the order of 60 officers. they hadn't had any retirement to the last four for five years under president karzai so the last four months they have had about 60-plus. that's infusing new blood and is looking hard at the people he puts into those positions. he has tried to interview every one of his general officers. he is trying to put them based on their merit which is very good. i think leadership is going to change the attrition piece. part of his combat casualties, it's a small piece but the desertion if you look at why people deserve and they have instituted an attrition working group in the army that i have senior advisers on. for a wild winds it to did that to make sure we get after this issue but when you take a hard look at his leadership it is for

instance having a soldier assigned to the 215th. he has been there for years so only knows his combat after combat. they haven't been able to get a motorcycle. they can take leave and have training and they can fight. they are just now starting to have that cyclic force generation process that gives them capability. once they get that into place i do think you'll see the desertion piece. part of it is they are assigned to the 215. you see no future about being rotated to another court and you will always be on it because personal management is not right. they're moving toward that. if they are the 215 at home and if you live up north that takes you days to get back there or you may never get back then when she did get back there you may be out in the fields trying to harvest. you may go past what your 20 days of leave would be and you

are considered a deserter. i think leadership is going to make the difference on the attrition piece. i think president ghani is a big part of that. >> it sounds like logical things to address and if i may mr. chairman one quick question. what percentage of wounded warriors, what percentage of the medical care in theater right now is coming from american personnel would you estimate? >> for the afghan sir? >> for the whole theater. you talk about the wounded warriors. is it u.s. physicians and surgeons taking care of the wended predominately? >> they have their own medical system. i sat down with the army surgeon general and talk to him. they have regional hospitals and we have advisers in different places that continue to work through that. they only come to a coalition facility like in bagram if it's

a very worst-case that they can handle. that has been on view in subsistence i've been there. tonight thank you very much. we will have a chance to be in a classified session and i appreciate it. >> mrs. tsongas. >> thank you general and thank you for hanging in there. i appreciate very much your knowledge and very nuanced testimony. i want to follow-up on congressman -- congresswoman bordallo's comments. i've made six trips to afghanistan and for what the delegation of women generally three republican congresswoman and three democratic congresswoman and our goal has been twofold. it's been over mother's day to thank her women soldiers we commiserate with them knowing how hard it is to be away from home on mother's day as it is for all of those who are serving. we have also had the real opportunity to see the gains have been made for women in afghanistan.

while they are not as widespread as we would like to think kabul has been a prime beneficiary and other urban settings. nevertheless those gains have been real and your report shows that in terms of health care, access to education access to work however limited. as we are drawing down our concern really is that those gains are not somehow traded away. as you have talked about president ghani reaching out and referencing the taliban in his inaugural speech i can tell you that as we meet with women over there those comments sends chills through them. we know how terribly they suffered under the taliban regime. so i think our concern has become how do we protect the gains that have been made? as we have talked today about some of the differences with afghanistan and iraq it seems to

me one of them has been the signing of the bilateral security agreement in that it has set up a very different framework. i think it has given us leverage, a role in afghanistan as it transitions to its next phase. so i'm curious while the security situation is really your world and many of these other games have been investments that have come about through other parts of our presence there how you see the united states role using its ongoing relationship with the government to make sure that let's just say negotiations to go forward with the taliban. how do we use our leverage their their, how do you use your leverage as a representative of the united states to make sure that women's gains remain on the table and they are somehow not traded away as others argue for a path forward in which the taliban are -- to the government.

>> maam thank you for your question. i think the leadership has it big part to play. the difference here is president ghani and dr. mueller are committed to this. it's written in their constitution and so as they work with the taliban if there is reconciliation down the road one of the key parameters will be the constitution will hold and it talks about respect of women's rights. again i think with the first lady and president ghani that ambassador mckinley and his team at the embassy, with the 30, 40 plus ambassadors i interact with periodically they'll have this utmost in their mind. it comes up in different settings on that so it's sort of a drumbeat with the senior leadership and the other ministries continue to hear. they understand how important it is that they abide by the

constitution where they want to go. i think leadership will make a difference and they understand in my realm and the security round everything as conditions-based. we signed letters of commitment to provide finance, to provide fuel on and on and this is the same way we look forward in this area that could be conditioned space in everything we continue to do their ngos abide by the constitution and i think leadership can make that happen. >> i remember hearing we had where woman who is a leader of one of the ngos over there said the first indication over there that things are not going well will be the street. if you stop seeing women on the street so that does come back to the role of the afghan national police. are you confident that they are up to the task and if not how would we challenge them to do it better? >> the police have done much better on integrating women into their force. they are doing much better

understanding how they deal with communities and understanding community policing. we talked about the high-profile high-profile. one way of getting at that was having a police force that had policing on their mind and as we mentioned earlier one of the members of president ghani me to change on the district commanders inside of kabul. they made a change and they have talked about that for a while. they just did that and as i travel around the streets of kabul the streets are bustling. a lot of women are out and around so that indication continues to build. again i think this will be a challenge in the leadership in keeping a spotlight on us and having the international community make sure they understand how important it is. they don't continue to abide by this there's a conditionality where they can take away something whether it's financial

financial. they are dependent on donor nations right now so conditions have to go on this. they are working hard on this and dedicated toward that. but there will be challenges as they move forward. it's going to take time so with an army they have a goal, a very hard goal of getting 10% into their army. they are less than 1% today and they are trying to work toward that. i look at my own army at 15% so it's going to take time. it's harder based on the cultural differences they have but i think they are committed to working up is very hard. >> thank you general for your testimony. >> general i mentioned to you that i thought the questions would be better starting from the bottom or the more junior members and i think the questioning has been excellent today. i think we have touched on a lot of topics. you have had a number of questions about isis and isil. i realize that you are not here as a lawyer and you haven't read

or studied carefully the implications of what the president has proposed. i heard you say at this point isis is a nascent threat in afghanistan although when you are watching very carefully. but as we explore this aumf that the president has requested for isis thinking about how it would work for people like you whether we are talking about afghanistan, syria iraq or whatever one of the concerns is that it has more restrictions on isis than the current aumf has on al qaeda. some of these groups live side-by-side. so to me there is just a commonsense concern here that if you have got two different standards to go after two different terrorist groups how do you have the intelligence to know which is which and

operationally you have to have a lawyer by your side to make every single decision. if it comes to be that way and this is a big if and again i'm not trying to -- but operationally with that not be a matter of concern? >> sir thanks for the question. and the commander on the ground would tell you he wants as much flexibility as he can get so any policy that provides commanders on the ground the flexibility to make decisions in a timely manner is something we would be in favor of. you are right, the insurgents and i can only speak for afghanistan but the insurgents inside of afghanistan in many cases feed off of each other and they are interrelated in many different ways. you may have one that provides finance, food, lodging and one that may provide weapons and secure routes but some fight each other internally but also

it's very tough as we took a hard look at it to separate some of these organizations. what i do have right now is the authority to prosecute those who come after the coalition and that's how i look at it as they try to bend those. does not buy their status but by their conduct come after coalition forces. >> the reason we are in afghanistan to begin with is because that is the place from which it plot was launched that ultimately killed 3000 americans americans. what can you tell us about your assessment of al qaeda's core ability to reconstitute itself were it not to be under constant pressure on the front lines? >> thanks again for that question. i do think we have to make sure we understand the threat and how

the threat will continue to evolve. the continued pressure that we provide now with their very credible ct capability, the very best in the world i believe has prevented another attack on the homeland and i do believe if you don't have continued pressure on a few that blix will be a matter of time that they will regenerate that capability. >> under the current drawdown plan with your ability to gather intelligence for the ct mission be significantly downgraded in this calendar year? >> sir as i look at it i would much rather go into a classified session with you to discuss that piece. >> i sure don't want to get the

details. >> anytime you go from one number to another you have to make very tough decisions on where you balance that. as i talked before, force protection is utmost in my mind. isr and other pieces that provide continued force protection so i look at it very hard and i have to balance that. those numbers you have to make tough decisions on where you take that and if i don't feel comfortable with that i need to make sure to come forward to my senior leadership and provide them with what i believe the risk of force is in the wrist emission is. tonight i appreciate that and again i'm thinking from a commonsense measure. if you are in fewer places around the country you have fewer opportunities to gather intelligence including force protection and counterterrorism as well which is of concern to me.

just to clarify and i think you answered this earlier all of the high-value terrorist who were in our custody have now been turned over to afghan custody. >> not all afghan. they have been turned over to third countries as well but i do not have any detainees. i do not have detention authority after one january. >> so they have all gone somewhere but not all necessarily bear. >> that is correct sir. >> last thought, i am struck. we had as you know austin here yesterday and i am struck by the number of members on this committee on both sides of the aisle who have served in iraq and afghanistan and feel very strongly that they did not want the sacrifice that has been made in afghanistan -- though i hate

to say go to waste but there is tremendous frustration in what has happened in iraq. you got a sense of that today. i know from your service and from those who served under you you share that determination to make sure whether we are talking taxpayer dollars or american lives that the sacrifice is upheld and honored and that it is not wasted because of policy decisions. the only thing i would request from you is as you watch this situation in afghanistan probably closer than anybody else, if you believe that we are headed down the wrong path i.e. headed down a path that we went down in iraq? i now this committee expects and requests you do raise a flag to

us as well as your chain of command and say this is headed down the wrong path. this committee obviously shares what no doubt ensure commitment to make sure that all of that sacrifice these last 14 years results in a stable relatively peaceful afghanistan from which terrorists cannot launch attacks against us. so i appreciate that and you are welcome to say anything you want to. >> absolutely i'm committed to that. i will give you my best military advice and i'm committed to data and thank you for your leadership as well. >> thank you and i appreciate

>> it was in may of 1978 a professor at the university of illinois in chicago found a mysterious package in the parking lot. when a campus policeman attempted to open the package exploded injuring the office. this was just the first of 16 bombs delivered over a span of the next 17 years to individuals in various locations across the united states. all but two of them caused serious injuries. three resulted in death.

law enforcement shortly came to the conclusion that bombs were all being sent by the same person whom they dubbed the unibomber. understandably the public was struck with fear not knowing when or where the unibomber would strike next. the investigation came to a head in 1995 when the unibomber sent a 35,000 word essay to "the new york times," the "new york post" post," penthouse magazine and other publications containing his so-called manifesto. and offering to cease his bombings if they would publish him. with the approval of law enforcement the times and the post published the manifesto. when david kaczynski read the contents of it he began to think the unthinkable that it was written by his brother, ted.

working with the information provided by david kaczynski law enforcement was able to obtain a search warrant for cabin occupied by ted kaczynski in an authorized area near lincoln montana. with what they found in that search law enforcement had enough to arrest ted kaczynski and the decision was made by the united states department of justice to bring the prosecution here in the eastern district of california. the decision was also made to ask for the death penalty. the defendant was indicted in april of 1996 and the trial began in the courtroom of united states district judge garland e. gorell junior in late 1997. after a lengthy jury selection process in january of 1998 the defendant suddenly agreed to plead guilty in exchange for a sentence of life in prison without parole.

in our panel discussion here this evening we hope to discuss among other things how the fbi managed the investigation of such serious crimes extending over such a lengthy period of time in such a vast geographical area. we will also discuss the effect of those crimes had on their victims, one in particular. we will talk about why and how the decision was made to allow the publication of the unibomber's manifesto. we also hope to discuss what was involved in seeking and obtaining a search warrant and how the decision was made to bring the prosecution here in the eastern district of california. we hope to learn about the prosecution strategy including the decision to seek the death penalty and also learned the defense strategy. finally how the agreement was ultimately reached for the defendant to plead guilty in exchange for a life sentence.

we have a distinguished panel with us this evening to discuss the subject. their full resumes are found in your program. first to my immediate left terry turchie special agent agent for the fbi for 35 years. between 1994 in 1998 he was the assistant special agent in charge of the unibomber task force. he is co-author of four books. one of them is entitled hunting the american terrorist, the fbi's war on homegrown terror and the most recent one which has the most relevance to this discussion is entitled unibomber unibomber, how the fbi broke its own rules to capture the terrorist ted kaczynski. our next panelist to his left is gary wright who is a computer store operator in salt lake city who was a victim he prefers to

say survivor, of the unibomber's 12th bomb attack in february of 1987. he has since developed a friendship with the defendant's brother david kaczynski. to his left judge robert stephen lapham a california superior court judge presently presiding over juvenile court proceedings and sand -- sacramento. he was the assistant attorney for the eastern district of california handling several high-profile cases in sacramento between 1984 and 2015 and he was a member of the prosecution team in the kaczynski case. finally to his left quin denvir serving as the public defender from 1977 to 1984 and at the time of the unibomber trial he was the federal defender for this district and lead counsel on ted kaczynski's defense team.

i would be remiss if i did not introduce one other individual whose presence on the panel a judge who presided over the kaczynski proceedings judge burrough junior. now to get off the discussion terry why do you tell us how you got involved in the unibomber investigation and how they came about. >> like most fbi agents he was a reluctant involvement. for myself on april 11994 at 12:35 p.m. and i can probably give you the seconds in a palo alto resident agency where i was happy working national security cases i received a call from our system special agent at the time of counterintelligence. he said terry i just got off the phone with jim freeman are special agent in charge of the time and here is what i would

ask how would you like to come to san francisco and take over the task force which had been established a year earlier after 1993 simultaneous bombings both of those mailed here from sacramento to different parts of the coast. i smiled to myself when i said that's a nice offer and i'm good here. i love palo alto and i love being around his stanford but thank you. there was a pause and he said it was a multiple-choice question. i would like you to consider coming up here as soon as you can. i said okay how about in a month? that will give me time to wrap everything up here and we can find a new acting supervisor and i will head to san francisco. he said how about in a couple of hours? most of us because of the link to this case and i will use the words almost sheer hopelessness and that is how we thought about it we try to avoid that corridor

in the federal building in san francisco. it housed the unibomber task force or that's how i got started. >> the investigation had been ongoing for a number of years. can you summarize what the fda learned before you got involved? >> the investigation had gone on since may of 1978. even though up to this time there were 14 bombings there would be two more bombings while we were supposed symbol that is the latest iteration of atf. we didn't know a lot that we knew certain factual details for we had questions that we had no answers. looking back particularly at the first three crimes they became important to us as we tried to look at a new way to put this case together. the first bombing that happened at may of 1978 the main question is this. there is a package found at the university of illinois chicago campus in their technology

building parking lot. it had $10 uncanceled stamps and somebody went to pick it up and eventually got it to the police. it exploded but we never got the answer to the question on why did we have a package with a return address of northwestern university in chicago and $10 canceled stamps. why wasn't this package mailed so that was one of the things we focused on. a year later in may of 1979 another bomb was found only this time it was found inside northwestern university. that struck this is interesting because the first bomb we had a return address of northwestern and now we had a bomb actually at northwestern. we thought a lot about that and we try to look at what possibly could be the connection between those two bombs. in the third bombing in november of 1979 which got everyone's attention the bomb was placed on

american airlines height -- flight 444 heading for national. there was a bomb placed on the airplane that had been built with a barometer and fashioned as an ultimate or. it was to go off at a certain alt-a two. when it did go off there was cargo and luggage in the cargo room and started a fire rather than exploding as it was supposed to. by the time the plane did an emergency landing at dulles airport and the pilots were able to look at the damage when the fire was out they were prepared to say had this fire burned a couple more inches closer to the hydraulic line this would have crashed and they would have been nothing we could have done to stop it. at that point the fbi chris renee looked at this bomb and the parts and the strains we

haven't seen any other bombs built by someone who did this. he sent out a bulletin and alert and said we have a call from the atf. they reference the first to bombings in 1978 in 199, brought all this together and realized in november of 1979 we now have the serial bombing case. >> how did the name unibomber get coined? >> the first two bombings were at universities. northwestern university and rpi in new york. the first bomb with the address of northwestern and the second bomb in a graduate student room in may of 1979 at northwestern gave us universities as targets. by the time the bomb was placed on the american airlines flight we knew knew -- we now had universities and airlines so this became as you know the fbi likes to attach these fancy names to its cases it got

public attention and certainly did. universities and airlines unibomber. >> we have a chart behind us up all of the bombings. without getting into all of the details what was the sequence of events after the first three? >> after the first three bombings we would eventually have 13 more bombings as the judge mentioned. in 1980 the airline aspect of this got another boost. percy with the present of united airlines in his lake forest home in illinois received a package in the mail. a week before he received the package he received a letter in the letter was written to him by someone named signed a letter enoch fischer. in this letter he said you are going to be giving in the mail a package from the president. you don't know me but anybody like you present of united airlines makes decisions

affecting the public welfare needs to read the book that i'm sending you. the book turned out to be a novel that was written at the time. even the author sloan wilson said i don't really have any social significance to my book so i don't know what they're talking about. i just kind of came up with that one day. percy would receive at package that next week. when he went to open it the book had been carved out and there was a bomb built into the book. he suffered significant injuries when he opened his book and his house. that was the fourth event. all of those had a nexus to chicago. then no more nexus to chicago. we are done with chicago and by 1980 when we moved on to salt lake city. in 1981 the bomb was placed in the hallway at the university of utah business building. it exploded in the bathroom and somebody noticed it and the police to get in there and detonated it.

..

the owner of that stewart came out from the door into the back parking lot and came and saw what appeared to be a road hazard i'm sure in his mind. two by fours nailed together and unbeknownst to him inside these pieces of wood the bomber had carved in and build a bomb. when he went over to move this so that it would not cause problems for a a passerby, as soon as he reached over to break the contact between that device

and the ground it exploded killing him almost instantly >> the. >> the next bomb, i believe was in salt lake city involving our next panelist gary wright. >> really similar with the structure of the bomb. 1987 i am the computer company. my my family work there with me. i had been out on calls. pulled into the rear parking lot of our building. as i pulled in i looked down, and next to my secretary's car, i pulled the next to hers there was a peace of wood similar to what you said but different 22 different, 22 by fours put together with nail sticking out of it.

i remember one was up on the right-hand corner bench just a little bit. but they were the shiniest nails i had ever seen. but i went and got the same thing there's something in the road. when i went over and went to pick it up there was something really quite wrong an immediate feeling of pressure. the sound of like a jet fighter going over. instantly i moved a long way. i did not know how but i realized i was jumping up and down like i was on the pogo stick. i was hollering for my family. everyone worked for me. they came out the back. as i was jumping around the only way i can describe the

next thing i saw was kind of like the matrix. i can tell you, it is true. i was looking at the power and telephone lines i went to the building. they were moving very slowly i was watching pieces of things drift down around me. i'm thinking this is the weirdest thing i have ever seen. at that 2nd i really thought, i'm not going to make it. i thought someone had shot me with a shotgun. my family came out and, and i could see my dad was trying to say something to me. i was reading his lips because it was like being under water and swimming pool. so he had been a state trooper in salt lake and had seen lots of things. i could tell he was upset.

slowly he and my brothers sat me on the tailgate of one of the trucks. sat there for a few minutes. while. while i was sitting they're i look down and was dressed nicely had a dress shirt on had on a white dress shirt and there were things that i could not i could not figure out what they were threaded through my shirt like needles. i i kept trying to put my head down to look but i was running into trouble. trouble. when the bomb exploded it was inside of two by fours. it was all of the slivers. the dr. later told me you look like a porcupine. that is something where they say life changes in a minute but it is really a millisecond. you just never know.

we walked into the building. i lay i lay down and got really comment took everything off give it to my mom and laid there. i realized it was serious because the next thing i see maybe a police officer 25 police officers and an ambulance crew. i don't know how you fit five guys into an ambulance, but they were successful. i said this might be worse than i thought. the moral of the moral of the story is it is not really fun when they cut your close off and your mom is sitting there. probably the most humbling thing you will run into. this is not so good. ultimately they took me to the hospital. i i waited -- i got there

about 1030 and they started surgery at 6:00 p.m., no painkillers or anything. the body's natural morphine is a pretty amazing thing. that was a good thing for me i went through three surgeries. the 1st night they went in and found i had severed a nerve in my left arm. when when the bomb exploded it moved very rapidly. when that middle came apart it was liquefied. when it went into my arm it cauterized the artery, so i did not bleed. i was pretty lucky in that regard. that night they did a bunch of the face stuff, stuff, check out 200 pieces of shrapnel from my legs and things like that. that was a friday. i went on sunday and decided

to recover a little bit. two weeks two weeks later i went back to the hospital for another surgery to try and grab the nerve in my left arm back together. ultimately they had to take it out and move it to the top of my arm. i tell people now there are things that don't work but i'm probably the fastest nine fingered typist finger typist you will ever know. finally, a surgery later had to transfer tendons and things in my hand, and it was strange. most strange. most people have two tendons and their thumb. i had three. that is a morning the probably changes lives in ways you don't no. >> how much time passed between the bombing that

killed two and the bombing that gary just described? >> six years. >> between the time of the bombing before his and gary's six years? >> again. >> how much between the bombing that killed few and the one he just described. >> 1985 and 1987. >> how much between the one gary describe and the next one? >> there we had six years. >> did you have a theory as to why there was so much time? >> the topic of why we had this time was widely debated we finally have the right guy and found a number of the writing 79.

he he was experimenting to build smaller, more compact bombs. when we start talking about the modern, instead of boxes and packages you actually have something the size of a video cassette placed in the mail to the future victim. >> do you have any theory as to why gary was not killed? >> we have talked about that a lot of gratefulness that it worked out that way the some of it is the way that the approach that bomb. gary i no you took the full brunt of that explosion. he reached to the edge and

moved it. when you moved it slightly it exploded and the force went in a different direction. >> the final two bombs did result in deaths. >> they did. an advertising executive and caldwell new jersey. he got one in the mail a week or two before christmas little kids running around the kitchen getting ready to go get a christmas tree. the mom called at the last minute. they went to get their pajamas often it ready to go home and there was a lot of mail that had stacked up. the 1st thing he took was this package with the san francisco return address on it. his wife heard a terrible noise. by by the time she got down

there was smoke everywhere. the the bomb was so powerful in this video cassette type of container that it had shrapnel. when it went off they had those copper skillets above the stove, and it went through some of those skillets. that was the power of the blast. he was killed almost instantly. finally in april, april 24 of 1995 again right here in sacramento at the california forestry association a bomb had been sent in the mail addressed to the president of the csa but he had left and been replaced by mr. gilbert murray. he was he was going to take this package up to northern california.

he went ahead to open it to see what was in it and the same kind of bomb with all the power and destructive power and just had no chance. >> can you talk a little bit about what the unabomber was doing to avoid detection? >> at the time we realized we were after someone who knew a lot and was too smart to leave a trail for himself we had no idea how smart he was. it turns out he was a genius he went to a great deal of effort to make sure he did not leave a trail behind. all of these bombs were handmade. he mentioned seeing something shiny it probably was something that was fashioned from chrome in the

cabin of the kaczynski. he would build them from scratch. normally when we try to trace things back in this case we could not trace anything. so he took sandpaper and sanded these devices very carefully to make sure they did not have any of his fingerprints on them. he wore gloves. in one instance he went to the men's room at the bus station got down on the floor and gathered for -- gathered here from the floor of the bathroom took that back and put it in between layers of tape. he would later write that he did this because if the fbi found here at a crime scene

they would think it came from the person who built the bomb. when you go out to buy things like old pieces of pipe or anything you might use to create a bomb committee would disguise himself, and one instance go into a junk store in salt lake city and stuff his nose with cotton and turned his hair died at black and had on really weird glasses. he went in there and figured if anyone sees me they certainly will not recognize me. he did all of these things in an effort to make sure to conceal his identity and help him later. >> a famous composite picture of the unabomber was circulated that everyone was familiar with. how did that come about? >> well, there was a major

turning.. on february 20 1987, you all saw him. the truly looking out the window 4 feet 4 feet from where he was kneeling on the ground to arm the bomb. noticed right away that something was wrong. and so she is watching all of this literally kaczynski set this bomb in motion. her attention is taken off of them and he leaves. almost immediately you happen to pull in. but she described him to where when this was the 1st time we could say for sure he is a male. the getting the question.

and this becomes one of the more embarrassing parts of this case. 1987 and she described this man perfectly. subsequently a composite was put together. that was distributed between 1987 and the time of our task force. never happy with that composite. something dramatic happened. you are you are familiar with the case of richard arlen davis. if you have seen the picture of the actual photograph you see the similarity of the composite and the photograph we started thinking we were looking for different ideas why don't we go back and redo the composite. and so one of our case

agents and supervisors got on the plane and flew out. and he was going to go into painstaking detail putting together this composite that we ultimately distributed. making sure making sure people know you think the fbi doing something like this. they were in the other room doing the composite. max was trying to entertain the kids. but it turned out that composite we got that out in 1994 and put it out with a message. this time telling the public cannot think of slim

devices. then think of the middle between 1981 and 1982 in salt lake city and think of the nexus with the bay area and look at this composite. those are the things we were dealing with. we had one other small detail. the original composite you can't think of everything and please everybody all the time. the the original composite the artist mother got really mad. we got a number of calls that she was very upset and disappointed that we didn't that. you never know what you'll get. those are some of the things that happened along the way. >> a real break came when you receive the manifesto. >> one of the pieces that brings all this together

finally the unabomber after the murder of mr. murray keep in mind just days earlier he had had the bombing of the oklahoma federal building. they wanted to be published. and so the idea was that the new york times would publish possibly the "washington post" but if they did not that we had not seen yet we would end up

seeing more bombings. if we published it they would desist. september 1995 2 things happen. the san francisco chronicle gets a letter saying this is the terrorist group. i i put a bomb on an airliner out of lax. everyone's command post is lit up and trying to figure out how to deal with this. the next day the manifesto floods into these various places. it was coming with a short letter that said, just one last joke here is the manifesto. once we got it and started reading it and had our profile or dive into it it did two good things.

it seems to be the please get the -- that could bring it together. many people thought it might be a red herring. we had to decide how we would deal with it but we also had to decide something else. what kind what kind of recommendation will we make? essentially what we are doing if we decide to recommend you publish the manifesto the big thing was are we giving in to terrorism, basically involved in a transaction with a terrorist? that was the big issue that permeated our entire thinking between the time we got the manifesto in september and april in the time it was published.

>> ultimately you decided it would be published. >> yes, we did. >> we through this around and came to a conclusion. there were about six of us. and we through it around back and forth and went into another room and decided a recommendation should be that we don't recommend publication. we took off and all started looking at each other. tony was in there with us. we all look at each other. the wrong decision. we had to go back in. they said we have to change

our minds. they have a discussion all over again. for one primary reason we felt the publication was the way to go. it was so detailed so passionate and so specific that we felt that it represented the lifelong thinking of the person we were looking for and if we could take this piece and put it with the two other pieces that composite geographical sequencing read the manifesto, put it all together and call us if you know someone like this. that is what we decided to do. the manifesto was published september 19. between september 19 and april 3 actually the middle of february of 96 we received 55,000 phone calls on the tip line. wives wanted to turn in her

husband's girlfriends wanting to turn in boyfriends. yet none of those people were the unabomber intel that call in the middle of february. he was representing an unknown client command they wanted to talk to us about some information that the client had. >> steve, you and the us attorney's office at this time when did you become involved?

the attempts. the statute we had had 12 bombings up to this time, the statute had run on all of them with the exception of one. no statute on capital murder cases. that was the one case that was subject to the jurisdiction. it was the only case with the case.

it seemed an important enough case, some working theories about who you might be some of which have been developed by atf agents in chicago. i was not aware that there was such a thing as the unabomber task force. i dove in. >> did you get involved? >> yes. shortly after that i started attending task force meetings. he won fair at that. very shortly after that he mailed to bombs from sacramento.

so now we are off and running again. >> the decision was made to publish the manifesto. >> i don't recall. i'm the northern district strongly in favor. it was just a 35,000 word.

>> we -- i think terry r max probably notified me that we had been contacted by an attorney. if i'm not mistaken that occurred in the fall of 95. that is when we put agents in. >> it happened very fast. >> interesting how you compress time. i remembered it as occurring earlier than that. the bottom line is he said he was representing a client anonymously at that time who believed he knew who the unabomber was.

this client had hired a private investigator to check it out. the private investigator had come back with the conclusion that there was a 60 percent chance that he was the unabomber, and with that information is authorized to go to the department of justice, related information , and it came with a price. asking that in return for divulging who this individual was he wanted the department of justice to forgo seeking the death penalty. >> did they do that? >> no. the department of justice rejected that offer. >> but did use receive information from david kaczynski? >> yes. he came forward and give us the information. one of the reasons he did if you look at some of the diaries and journals he had been estranged for quite some time but he reached out uncharacteristically

initially in 1994 asked for a thousand dollars loan. david being a compassionate person, of course, agreed instantly sent him the money, thought he was probably in declining health later he is back asking for another loan this time $2,000. and when he started feeling that his brother might be the unabomber he started connecting the dots and came to believe that his loans to his brother had actually financed the last two murders. that actually turned out to be correct. and i think out of just that share knowledge he understood that he could not

sit on this information and double-digit. >> along with the other information he devils new line for he was living. >> yes. >> how was the decision made to get a search warrant? >> we have had had had a search warrant in various stages of preparation all on because it was a massive search warrant. there was a lot of information we could include before we even knew who he was. you have to put in information about each one of the 16 devices including the various components so that you know what you are searching for knew execute the basic facts that connect the devices. a lot of that was already done. >> who did that? >> various members of the team.

steve took the lead on that. in the final preparation we knew who it would be executed against. steve, max, terry and probably others and a couple of 24-inch pizzas spend an all nighter drafting the final version and faxed it off to the district of montana. >> the judge in the district of montana issued the warrant. >> correct. >> what did you learn when it was executed? >> your asking about the search? the search lasted over nine days command people wonder why it took nine days to search for ten by 12-foot. the working assumption was when we went into this place it would be a bomb factory. protocols were in protocols were in place to x-ray everything in p