enables them to of howard is performed by the service if they get the money they believe they deserve and miss matthews is already opined on this but if they are modified at all it should be to have better transparency throughout the system for licensees licensees, writers and pro's and we ought to know what is real licensing how much is being paid by whom and to whom it is all public and available. we can all agree it is an issue if anything comes up of the hearing it should be that to occur appreciate the courtesy chairman.

>> we wish you the best of luck with the tax code. [laughter] >> thanks for raising the issue in being here. it is an important topic with that industry moving that there is a lot of music activity in atlanta but the music marketplace has changed to undergone radical changes over the next decade the year the top 100 singles sung by bryan adams and boys to men. gore like to start with the threshold question about both consent decrees the the part of justice had a mandate with the decrees

have a sunset provision these would terminate within 10 years in response to congressional action to strengthen the penalties for the sherman act violations so more than 35 years it is the policy should terminate of less exceptional circumstances are present. the os perspective but i think it is worth considering in context all we're looking at today perot like to give each of you to respond for those whose support in the present form can i get a quick description of the music licensing market with that than a year since that and those who favor that or the amendment you believe the sunset provision applies?

>> 285 is not requesting a termination although it is appropriate to have reasonable pathway to consider regular modifications with a possible sunset today we only ask for a few discreet changes for collective licensing. the hypothetical of publishers meeting is not up hypothetical. it is our greatest fear for the songwriter we're running of time. >> senator what makes this exceptional to suggest sunset is not appropriate? the behavior that gave rise

it goes away so it is no longer needed. so it is a horizontal sales agency to take publisher said aggregate them together proa otherwise is a competing catalog. unless the behavior changes a does not seem appropriate to do away with protections from the licensee for the market power and super competitive rates the. >> and the market today there are many music surfaces without operation with the regulation that they're under. so the publishing data is currently available with private actors. so in this particular area it becomes more competitive.

>> thanks for the question. there very unusual decrease not as he usually does to deter at a competitive conduct it is to enable within deconstruct it could be regulated. that makes them very unique to make them necessary plus a large publishers that represented they could operate there has to be a construct to be engaged in anti-competitive activity. >> in a perfect world the consent decrees go away but we don't want to destabilize because it was to importuned.

so to modify for relief so that relationship with the pro's is good. my wife of 23 years looking for wisdom i don't know with any of that means but i do know that a circle on the calendar the four days the check, . [laughter] >> i agree there in place for an unusually long time for those circumstances. so that silver bullet that created that competition but it is not the world we're living in right now. especially given we have

seen increasing consolidation with the publishers some of which was justified as a backstop with a federal court case the judge found the publishers had the opportunity to compete in coordinate but we should always be reevaluating going forward. >>. >> as has been mentioned today led distinguishing characteristic of a free-market system is that two parties negotiating have the ability to walk away if they cannot achieve a mutually agreeable outcome. but yeah it is suggested music services and broadcasters in particular

literally cannot walk away from licensing negotiations because they don't have total control over what music they publicly performed. kenner broadcaster remove the specific license is that possible? >> theoretically but not practical and here is why. with various types of programming some of that we produce we identify the music and can do that exactly. >> to identify the music thing you can figure out the rules? to make if we can come to an agreement we cut it out. such as local news or

magazine shows. for a large portion of programming we don't have the ability to do that. network programming is cleared through the view were we don't have to worry about that. but the syndicated programming and commercials we don't now that editorial control therefore we're at the mercy literally everybody that comes to us i'm coming after you with no way to avoid it. >> with that change the view is provided with a continuously updated song is that an issue? >> but the producers of the syndicated programming to identify you whose music

they're using it is not within the realm of possibility to identify the music if you could do that it is to read -- theoretical possible lead is not going to happen. >> you have to see the future if you have the superpower and other things would be better. >> i believe much of that pressure makes changes to the consent decrees with the threat of full withdrawal by the publishers that would threaten the blanket license scheme that is at risk of falling apart what in your view is the best alternative to the consent decree system

for the marketplace? finigan terms of alternative structures we do have a statutory licenses for copyright law if we come up with that statutory license with transparency to help artists get paid directly we would support that. but we don't have that for these kinds of abuses so until we have the new structure set up. >> you think it makes sense to have this regulatory system administered by the idea j. regulators and a couple of judges for congress to consider that with regulatory structure? what would that look like.

>> we do have other structure like the copyright royalty board but in terms of the consent decree in how the markets are working which is very important for the federal judges they are impartial and understand the law for them to obtain the facts i don't view that as a bad system. >> my time is expired select one of the things we know is the consent decree that we're talking about are possibilities that there were be a problem not to have it from your perspective from the consumer's standpoint.

with enforcement of antitrust if the doj is pursuing competition today rely on private enforcement? >> yes. when the parties been the cases to make a relatively easier for large company like a pandora all of them would be burdensome but at the expense of transparency to play an issue in to find out if they are coordinating >> frankly i don't know that construct we can come up with so for us to be left

with a private antitrust enforcement the ascap is not appealing. but those broadcasters ever much smaller the real art so it isn't a workable solution >> that has been thrown out. >> you see any changes of the consent decree with concerns that have been raised. >> it is agreed upon it has been a real problem.

so in those intel commercials so of the art one that controls the rights as a problem but i don't think it is workable. >> sobers with transparency i think with all the panelist i think the market sold the issue. there is more data was copyright's been ever and is getting better on almost a daily basis. not only at the independent level but quickly to another point about the blanket licensing system it is a very grave reason to preserve that system and i agree that the television

licensing system should operate on a blanket basis but it is attached by the courts that is much easier done on a direct basis so it is the good argument for that to occur. >> one of the million technical questions that is beyond my pay grade but things such as transparency with the 1 million plays they send us a plaque if i have one of those every now and then i raise a family we're doing okay.

50 million? the song writer shake their head what are you talking about? we cannot even in comprehend to talk about the internet and technology but 1 million play is smiling in taking kids to movies that is worth a few thousand dollars? we get transparency on that we get those numbers quite clear. we cannot emphasize that enough where is the middle ground? with those numbers if you move that the juror around it is a very profitable business i think everyone will tell you that. >> does mr. miller talks

about noting it is a different technology is the broadcast but if you want to do the apples to apples comparison to reach 1 million people without largest radio station in new york city and only pass to be paid 15 times if you want to reach the 1 million you only need to play it 21 times. it is important we contextualize. >>. >> i have a question in your testimony talk about with

the hard the would be causist to withdraw from there rights but you did not address the '02 changes with the bundling of additional rights and arbitration in could you give us your view of that proposal? >> i did address arbitration or if the then his second choice to the assistant we have no for these reasons. we don't space know anything about the industry and what we do know is these courts have deep experience and a lot of history the a

understand that dynamic. read in the federal court you have tools available to discover information in front of the tribunal to engage in the process freely and openly so the whole panoply of information so that you don't necessarily have that to substitutes arbitration is not a good solution in my opinion as to other licenses from my standpoint as a member of ascap i have owned music companies and there is something to look at with the pro's is to a minister

additional rights. and competitors can do that chlorates, we should take a look at that. >> if you had your choice would you abolish the consent decree are just make changes to recommend sari? >> in a perfect world would eliminate it so the immediate concern is keeping the high-value writers and publishers in the system because if the system goes the way everybody loses because they will not have access to millions of copyrights' through the blanket agreement consumers lose because once the money

stops or the songs stop pulling the money will stop devilishly we are concerned about the songwriters because they will not be capable to license 700,000 establishments inside in more outside of united states which means they will not get paid in the work will be infringed. >> know the answer i think but why would eliminating that be preferable in a perfect world? to read because ascap believes the free market works without regulation you get the right result. with copyright owners we believe at the core of the laws is a principle you should control your assets whether real property or intellectual -- she should have control as an owner but

they take that control away house committee and made an interesting point about the one-to-one relationship and in your opinion today with mr. miller's concern you feel like they are justly compensating? >> but with those royalties the best performing a song on pandora is country girl last year 2014 pandora would have paid around $7,000 to the code writers in the publisher's listed candidly

they would have paid close to 90,000 to mr. mcgraw and his record label i do understand it is a motivating factor for them to seek to modify the agreement that at the end of the david is paying 50% of revenue to the record label and the solution is to pay the rest of the publishers i cannot make that up if the disparity would be solved and ask to re-read the copyright owners themselves not on the backs of the services like pandora. >> mr. harrison talked about the database to increase transparency. in your opinion it is a good idea or a bad idea?

>> as i stated earlier ascap supports transparency most recently made modifications stouros specifically issues. >> but what is your concern of the construct or you feel you're already achieving that? said you have the specific concern or what is the reason? e-practically how one would require cooperation throughout the entire sector with unregulated actors or competitors i know ascap is willing to cooperate but i worry if others don't cooperate licensees will never have access to the full picture of data required would you have to

anything else you would like to add? to back a think the transparency meal the database exist in the unique identifiers as he made his catalog publicly available i have already downloaded it for the engineers to put into our system so we know what songs are controlled but that transparency piece has to go far enough to understand not just the owner of the song but what a sound recordings have been made to make this is one of the issues where we agree with the open availability of data. but the market is taking care that problem and that

is better than regulation. one area where we disagree is with mr. harrison's comment to not pay 50 percent to each party ballot also sarah and not sure as a small-business owner is not my responsibility to subsidize a public company. >> is problematic and she is correct to get everybody involved but with ascap controlling 90% start there. that is a pretty good place to start if you can get the other actors in piecemeal that is okay but start there and see where it goes. >> they can speak to that much better than me on that technicality but to clarify it is called southern girl

not a country girl. it is important words matter i got six or $7,000 on the number one song in the united states. >> with the issue of the database ivory moving forward what that was it looks like to get as much information as possible there is a lot of details including the copyright office. but i don't think the market handles that right now. if you look at the biggest licensers the viet the most you could download a list of all the songs and a catalog but there isn't a guarantee that is what they currently control progress some point this was the catalog but we will not promise that is what is the day the license of brings of huge liability

concerns for someone entering the market. >> with respect to my business that is not the case we approximate open data on a real-time basis and minder standing is to disclose all the information >> begin for testifying. >> i don't have any additional questions. >> mr. harrison i have to different types of royalties better paid in some circumstances. to establish under the consent decree in another under the copyright royalty board.

those under the latter are substantially higher versus the former sole lead several to use the code to those that wrote the song of another set the goes to those that recorded it. . .

as i said, i i said, i am not in a good position to make those relative value judgments. at the end of the day, the great makers themselves have made those arguments. >> if the department of justice decides to allow partial withdrawal it will likely impose other requirements on puerto rico owes, including increased owes, including increased transparency, changes to membership, some of these things that were mentioned earlier. in your opinion will additional safeguards be sufficient to ensure a competitive market the publishers can partially withdraw? >> without seeing the details not just the suggestions but the language that is intended to be used to made is hard to judge

but i remain confident that the department is not going to do things that result in less competition. >> i certainly hope they wouldn't but do you think that that would be sufficient? >> as i said i said without seeing the full list of what the department would propose and then actually read the language used to implement, it is tough to have an informed opinion. >> okay. whatever we consider the potential increase in prices in one market it is important to consider its

potential effect on related markets. in this case, related markets might not include only other music licenses, but performance rates for sound recordings and prices at restaurants, bars, stores that play music what effect might increased rates have on prices for other music licenses organs associated with music? >> i i think, as we take a look at what is really happening in those rare instances where factors in the market are negotiating with each other, and there are a couple that have been reported, at least one major label is headed into an agreement where prices have been at play for many of those things. we don't know all of them because they are not particularly transparent with that information to my but if the reports that have been received are true there has been an equalizing in those deals of different prices for different rights throughout the deal which is instructive. the market itself went about

that and is able to equalize those rates. there will be, in effect. i don't know and cannot foresee what in the future what it will be. there of course, could be, could be an effect if you and take one rate they're will be an effect on others. it is ironic that the provision in the copyright act that has been complained about was placed in that regime at the request. now they want to unplug it because i do not not like the way that it is operating presently. i think if you do, be careful what you wish for. >> a good observation. from my understanding, you are a songwriter with a long career in music before your time in broadcasting, and i

respect your unique set of perspective. let me ask you, do you think the dissent -- consent decrees as written are necessary to preserve the benefits of our system, or do you think that they could be achieved outside of the decrease? >> what i can say is, i believe that the system is worked. now all parties have taken there turn in various scenarios coming to the tribunals as set up now and taking advantage of those forums and arguing whatever issues they have on the consent decrees. those have been proven more or less to work over now more than 70 years. playing with taking the system is down or fundamentally changing them, with better look very carefully and cautiously. it is a system that has been working. i don't know what we would

be looking at. it is hard to say hypothetically whether something that would be replacing them would be better or not. all i can say is they are working and and i hesitate to change something that has historically been working. >> it is not just unknown but unknowable whether that could be achieved outside the decrees until we know what the other it is. >> exactly right, senator. >> thank you. i am going to keep the record for this hearing open for one week. that will include keeping it open for written questions. i want to thank her witnesses were coming. this has been a helpful hearing, and your testimony has brought a lot of insight to the table on this important and pretty complex issue. i think the senator for her (misty other and this

hearing stands adjourned. thank you. [applause] -- [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> on the next washington journal:

>> here are some of our featured programs for this weekend on the c-span networks:

>> the consumer federation of america posted a

conference today in washington dc. some of that event next here on c-span2 followed by a discussion a discussion on religion and politics and later a look at emerging politics to innovating entrepreneurs. >> i think we will start now if everyone has their coffee and is ready.

i have the honor of introducing this morning speaker who is the 15th administrator of the national highway traffic safety administration who was sworn into office just this past december 22. i 1st got to know administrator rosekind shortly after he was appointed to serve on the national transportation safety board on 2010. we have worked together on several safety issues including motorcoach and track safety as well as impaired and distracted driving. his dedication to advancing public health and safety is deeply rooted in both his personal life and his professional career. at his senate at his senate confirmation hearings he probably spoke out about his father a san francisco police officer who tragically died in the line of duty by a driver who ran a red light.

and like many other men in this room adminstrator rosekind married up. his wife is his wife is a successful pediatrician practicing in the san francisco bay area. his academic studies and professional career have prepared him well for the challenging opportunity of being they administrator of nhtsa. we are running late, so i we will brush over a lot of my introduction so that we can get to mark. basically he was in academic superstar and he went to all of the leading universities and colleges for undergraduate and advanced graduate degrees but many of us wanted to attend and few of us were smart are smart enough to get into such as stanford, yell, brown. adminstrator rosekind is an internationally recognized

expert on human fatigue and is a recipient of a recipient of numerous awards acknowledging his innovative research and program design. in fact, his expertise in fatigue management and alertness solutions maybe the most important qualification for handling the relentless demand of the extremely long hours he is experiencing. we know that there are many challenges facing this agency and critical safety issues to advance, and there really is not much time. all of us are rooting for your success and appreciate you joining us to share your program and planning priorities. thank you very much, adminstrator rosekind. [applause] >> thank you for that very generous introduction. i know her well enough. something i can say that no

one knows about you. i no yours. you were kind enough not to put mine out there command i realize you have a big day. this is a warm-up. it is a big day coming and i wanted to thank jack for his invitation. it has been nearly five decades helping all of us to create a marketplace and products. this assembly is a vital part of all of that work, so it is a pleasure to be here. those those of you who know me, if i known there was a power.opportunity i would have i would have gotten my slides out and been wandering around. instead, our communications guy is sitting back there staying sick to the prepared remarks, so i we will be good. today i we will review the challenges and opportunities that are before us in road and highway safety and

specifically how nhtsa is working to achieve its mission of reducing deaths and injuries on roadways and highways. in all the work i described today time is clearly of the essence partly because my time at nhtsa will expire with pres. obama's tenure in office, but more importantly time is of the essence. that is 90 deaths a 90 deaths a day and more than 250 people injured every hour. they were mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, loved ones, neighbors, friends coworkers, and every one of those, coworkers, and every one of those death was preventable. they deserve all of our best to ensure that we prevent additional death and injury in the future.

the next two years will be a sprint, no time to waste. we will use every minute to make americans safer on our roads and highways. the bottom line is that every american, whether they american, whether they drive, right, or walk should arrive at there destination safely every time, every one of them, and there should be no acceptable losses. now, pursuing our safety record we we will strengthen whatever is working well, fix what does not end ensure that we are using every tool at our disposal to save lives, prevent injuries, and reduce crashes. with that in mind let me briefly describe three specific priorities for the next two years. first, we must strengthen how nhtsa identifies and recalls vehicles and equipment with safety related effects. as it stands there are challenges to the efforts in this area. we must address these issues to multiple mechanisms such as seeking more people knew technologies command increased authority. recent cases demonstrate the

vital importance of getting this right. it it is the responsibility of nhtsa to do everything in our power to do everything in our ability. the american people expect that of us. we have commitments of the family and friends affected by roadway tragedies and to you that we will explore every idea, use every authority, employ every tool to prevent such tragedy on a roadway. before i arrived at nhtsa they had wants to several initiatives. i can tell you that that work will be very vigorously pursued. on january we live in a $70 a $70 million maximum fine against honda for failing to report deaths and warranty claims. our actions are pushing honda to significantly raise the bar on the effectiveness of his reporting system ensure compliance and determine if there is cause for additional action.

last month be levied new fines in the airbag case which are accumulating at a maximum rate of 14,000 the day and will keep accumulating until they live up to there obligation under law. in addition, we issued an order that will force to counter to preserve records that may be necessary in our investigation and helpful and private action. we will be able to take any action under the lot to law to hold manufacturers accountable, but any unbiased observer, it is clear the lot is not provide our agency with support. which is why we have repeatedly explored resources so that we can better protect consumers against any company that put lives at risk. continuing to move with full authority. withholding critical safety information we demand full

disclosure. i have only been here 81 days and have been counting. there are plenty of examples showing a a willingness to stand up and fight on behalf of the consumer. second, another one of our priorities is to strengthen the core safety programs. a very well established highly successful, literally household names such as click it or ticket drive sober get pulled over, and more recently you text you drive you pay. these are changing how americans are driving for the better and saving lives. the agency grants the state and local government the foundation. this is essential so that states can enforce laws provide technical assistance of graduated driver's licensing and other safety issues and support a wide range of activities to save lives literally where the

rubber meets the roads. this work on is much less attention than our efforts on vehicle defects but it is critical for us to address were significant safety risks exist. critical reason, the last element in the chain of events leading to a crash is the human 94 percent of the time. sec. fox has made our work on bicycle safety of major priority. focused on this groundbreaking transportation study. this is called beyond traffic command we are looking at both traditional and technological approaches that can help reduce deaths and injuries. we cannot forget the role that the agency plays. every weekend was learning something new about the depth of our portfolio the agency plays a critical role in advancing efficiency. and that moves forward as we work with heavy truck fuel

economy, standards, and works that support the president's goal and climate action plan. our 3rd priority is technology innovation. what we will what we will be doing is emphasizing and supporting technology innovation across the board. critical to saving lives in preventing injuries on the roadways to rid the most basic, like a seatbelt, the newest technology like collision warning an automatic braking systems, these have played a critical role in furthering safety. we announced the results of a study that examined the results of the study over 50 years. 1600 13,501 lives have been saved over the past half decade due over the past half decade due to technologies. what was number one? seatbelts. far and above everything else. the most important recent -- region to support.

mooring -- more excited to encourage safety. again changing innovation that has the potential to help drivers avoid hundreds of thousands of crashes every year. together technology innovation and safety really represent the greatest value to the traveling public. those are three of our priorities for the next few years which will involve a great deal of sprinting to accomplish those goals before january 2017. i we will be listening to you to explore opportunities to help advance the safety mission. we have an ambitious agenda but it is achievable. first, effectiveness. looking for every looking for every opportunity to be more effective, use all of the tools available and help

achieve our safety mission and bring to bear the best ideas, processes, and people in order to reduce deaths and injuries on our roads and pursue any means possible to help us as an agency be more effective. the 2nd principle is communication. externally the public needs to know what we do and how we do it. we build trust by excelling at what we do in ensuring the american public understands how we do it. this we will translate into transparency. wherever possible we will provide information. you will see diverse changes in how we communicate with the public across nearly every platform and will do so and clear and direct terms. we want technical information understood and acceptable. a 3rd guiding principle was innovation. made to look for opportunities to innovate everything that we do. that is how we have always done thing will not be an acceptable response. the question will be

constantly how can we innovate and be more effective? alchemy explore new and different ways to keep americans safe on our roads? we can never stop that explanation. if we are going to keep driving down deaths and injuries. our final note, the nhtsa safety mission is shared by dedicated individuals. all of you have dedicated your lives, and that is what it will take to serve the public interest to help reduce deaths and injuries on our roadways. transportation touches every single person every single day, command we share a responsibility to make our transportation system is safe as possible. together we can deliver on the promise of safety for all americans, they drive walk, ride so i hope you

will join me on a two-year sprint to advance the safety mission. together we will make a difference by saving lives. i thank i thank you and will look forward to questions. [applause] >> are there any questions? one of the most important consumer information programs has been the in program. do you do you have any plans for changing that, improving that any other changes that we should look forward to? >> thanks because that is a great question. >> is the mic on? >> we are good. >> one of my favorite movies is the american president. michael douglas, and that pinning.

one of my favorite scenes is when he tries to get her roses. remember roses. remember that. he cannot get the credit cards their ways. he heads of this beautiful uk of roses. she said how did you pull it off and he says, i figured out i have a rose garden. i have started a special project group looking at about 12 to 14 specific things. one of the 1st things was a review. we have already started working on it and i hope total of the secretary make an announcement come springtime about plans for the future. i believe it is a valuable program that needs to be leading edge for what it can do.

it is potentially one of our legacy programs that we we will trying to the place. >> other questions? did. [inaudible question]

>> here is the driver fatigue expert. that is enough. i think a lot of people are going to fight to make sure that increasing truck drivers service to more than 80 80 hours a week will not be made permanent. rosemary. >> good morning. one of the things i appreciate most at the department of transportation is the strong support for closing the loophole. could you comment a little

more that? >> rosemary and i were in richmond. we all met in richmond so that we could stand in front of those rental companies and have the secretary talk. really, that expands to two areas, areas used cars and rental cars that if they did not recall they should be renovated before sold or rented. there are many issues like this that i struggle with because they seem so straightforward. people asked if we have recalls should it be 100%? what else can it be? we should be trying to eliminate all deaths and injuries on the road. what else can it be? how can you have our recall that used rental vehicle before you sell it to somebody or rented. so yes. that is a good example of our interest.

thank you for all of your work on that. >> any other questions? >> can you tell us whether you have any plans for reestablishing public trust by freeing nhtsa from regulatory capture? >> i will let you define regulatory capture. >> that is an awful lot they're. >> a few other questions here, too. >> criticized for six years straight. it has reached the.where new york times editorials etc. are talking about regulatory capture at that at nhtsa.

i was reading some recent articles about the resolving -- revolving door. at door. at this time that is all people can come up with. fairly straightforward. some official reviews that have not found anything. the most anything. the most recent articles over 18 years, 40 people left. i get that. all i can do is deal with the folks well i am there now. i am cognizant, and again where you come from, how you act, and some of these issues are pretty straightforward. i am aware of it, but it is one of those things were am not going to support anything except our neutrality and independents and protecting consumers. >> can i just say that no plan to free nhtsa from regulatory capture? >> i am saying that i am

going to make sure that there is no regulatory capture while i am there command i cannot -- all of you know this. but like the but like the -- and otto. >> my name is shirley greenberg. i am with the national consumers league. i league. i used to work on auto safety when i was in the consumer union. i want to follow up on your.about, you know, there was -- and then i would like to ask a question somewhat related. were these real lapses in finding very serious defects time and time again nhtsa staff other look the other way or closed investigations. i think that there is a serious culture problem. we experienced it when i was

i was at consumers union, the frustration of having the agency look at things more palpably problematic and decide not to take any action. fair.and i don't know that industry capture or if it is ineptitude or a lack of car you know, enthusiasm for solving the problems. it bears close attention. >> i absolutely agree. - >> i absolutely agree. the american people need to trust the agency, and there is no question that the lapses. no question that things could have been done to advance more quickly. i'm not only cognizant about those things, but in two years they will be non- issues in that we will be on it the vigilance that i am

talking about during my tenure will be there. i cannot control who leaves, but i we will control who comes in in and i am at the top making the decisions. i am sitting in on every enforcement update that i can command i can highlight things. we made a we made a saturday announcement about recalls. we are going to try and get that. >> that is. >> that is great, and we need that. you were talking about heavy fines on members of the industry for putting cars on the road knowing that there was a defect a defect failing to report. when the gm over the last your to, those situations exploded it became clear that the fines are you know, are you know, only so effective and become a cost of doing business. there is there is a lot of talk about criminal penalties.

there is evidence to suggest that criminal penalties make executives and others under make sure that there are serious problems act and react in a much stronger way i do not know what you are sending to congress. have you talked about it internally? i am not sure if it matters. it was not coming from kayseven. it is important that you get out there and say, we don't want this to be a cost of doing business. >> and i think that is a great way to.to the issue of authority because you are right, if you want to change behavior you have to get people to notice what is going on everything from the science, a lot of discussion a request to increase the 35 million macs that we have to 300 or no caps. yes, there is discussion about potential criminal concerns as well.

so one thing jack and others will tell you is i don't like to talk about stuff i like to act. the secretaries new version of grow america that issue will be addressed. >> we started late and i no you had another meeting. will meeting. will you take one more question? >> sure. >> rebecca with bloomberg. since you started what is the latest? is this having an impact? what is the latest on the investigation with cicada? >> specifically to the $14,000 a day that was the macs that we could do and have two orders out because it is really 7,000. so the. it is not much but

the buzz -- the most that we can do. we had our most recent meeting yesterday. my quick understanding is that they are starting to become more forthcoming which is my way of saying that we we will find out what that means. part of the reason i am going back dealing more specifically. specifically. people understand that is what the issue was. the documents. and we mention that. people said 2.4 million. and they said, yes. they just don't on us. requiring him to.to the safety relevant information. that is not going to be one that is not going to be one meeting. it will be several. things started changing. i am not sure they are far enough yet, but i will find out today. >> i we will close by thanking the administrator for coming and to thank you for walking away from a five-year reappointment to the ntsb board to take over

nhtsa. as i told somebody, that is a measure of someone who is committed. thank you thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you. [applause] >> next a next look at investigative journalism and its impact on consumers. reporters from yahoo, abc news, "wall street journal", and pro- public a were part of this discussion in washington dc. dc. this is just over an hour. >> i think we're going to begin right away. away. my name is jack gillis, director of public affairs

for the consumer federation of america and would like to welcome you to today's panel on investigative reporting. for consumer advocates and those working with the media investigative reporting is one of the most critical components of being an effective advocate. today we will talk about something near and dear to the hearts of advocates investigative reporting. traditional and visit result the increasingly difficult business challenges facing news outlets the knew types of investigative reporting will look at how all of this is impacting a key pillar and consumer advocacy. because the media is so critically important to advocates there are knew questions being raised. emerging as credible news sources on the internet.

the new business models affect editorial content. content. the relevance of print and broadcast outlets to their internet partners. how did his his recipients, consumers address the concerns that the internet content may not be as carefully edited as daily print content. our blogs real competition to traditional news outlets. what are the challenges of integrating blogs, social media user generated content and to organizations like abc, nbc, yahoo, "wall street journal" who have new and blue-chip reputations for unbiased and carefully researched content. the bottom line is we will look at where investigative reporting is going. as we asked these questions about the news it is kind of

scary. a scary. a recent report suggests the continued erosion of news reporting resources combined with the knew media opportunities presents growing opportunities in politics, government and agencies and corporations to take their messages directly to the public without a filter. here is a snapshot from the pew report. newspaper newsroom cutbacks newspaper newsroom cutbacks but the industry down over 30 percent since 2,000. and local tv sports weather, and traffic now account for an average of 40 percent of content. cut story packages in half. here is what it gets interesting.

to combat dwindling resources. resources. a growing list of media outlets such as forbes magazine uses new technology to produce content by way of algorithm. no human reporting necessary. this adds up to a new industry that is more undermanned and underprepared to uncover stories deep into emerging ones and to question the information put in their hands. all this is happening at a time as howard kurtz said that the average consumer can in effect create his own news. picking and chooses from sources he trusted and enjoy rather than being spoonfed by a handful of big media conglomerates. almost every year for 20 years we 20 years we have examined the media from a variety of perspectives and have had some incredible participants.

i can say without question that this year we are honored to have what could be considered the best collections of investigative reporters in the country. thank you very much for joining us. what i would like to do is ask a series of questions and encourage the panelists to interact with each other and most importantly encourage you to enter up ask questions, and be part of this discussion. the 1st question goes to brian ross, brian is abc news chief investigative correspondent reporting for world news. he is also -- he began his career prior to abc where he was prior to nbc. well he is a chicago native native he is a graduate of the university of iowa which explains the beginning which i could not understand when i 1st read his bio.

he has received he has received many of the most prestigious awards in journalism including seven dupont's six peabody's six bowls, 16 emmys, five overseas press awards and five edward r murrow awards and many more. i i could spend an hour listing the stories of brian and his team have done to generate these awards. a couple of them worth noting, noting exposing the dangerous conditions of factories in bangladesh making clothes for tommy hilfiger and walmart. a toyota report which prompted one of the largest automobile recalls in history. patent -- pay to play grading systems by the better business bureau exposing walmart's walmarts use of overseas child labor further by american clothing campaign. there are many many more stories.

it must've been when he was ten years old but he also wrote what some of us remember as an important story the apps can story. you can be credited with the great movie american hustle. in introducing brian i have to acknowledge cindy who is in the audience today today, probably one of the abc star investigative producers and someone i no many of you no quite well. brian, one of your award-winning stories was done in cooperation with the center for public integrity. how did that come about? what was the relationship? what do you see as the future for joint investigative reports? if there is a future, what protections do you engage in when selecting a partner to avoid the appearance of bias >> thank you. nice to be here. we partner with the center

for public integrity on what is happening to coal miners apply for benefits under the black lung law. what we discovered working with the great researcher jenny work with the the the dollars -- every single case. he thought it was some remote bird disease. there were lots of explanations. what the center did was to go back and compile the precise medical records of some 17, 1800 cases and examine the findings and some of those people had died. after they died, the autopsy show autopsy showed that they in fact have black line. chris came to us from the center, and with the producer we work together using the incredible research the kind that we

would probably not spending a year and a half doing and putting that together with our ability to sit down at johns hopkins an interview this doctor p. after our report that program was suspended. the department of labor since moved to reopen every single case where minors have been denied. again and again, there are many miners who have died who had been determined by their own doctors that they have black long after this doctor at hopkins said they did not. the government reached out to take back the benefits. a clawback of benefits. so that was, for me i think one of the most powerful studies -- stories done in recent time that led to real changes in how the law was administered and how that program is being looked at by the department of labor. and it was you know, partnerships are not without issues.

we all have credit and try to share it as much as possible. there are a number of awards. the pulitzer prize. a number of other awards. it was one of the more rewarding projects. frankly, as i said abc would not have spent a year and a year and a half to go through every single medical file. incredible work. so is this something make it happen in the future? how do you work out the issue of this organization? >> we don't want to work with any group or bias. we worked on joint projects.

we are picky there are people who make decisions about who we we will and will not work with. we are prepared to interview people and do stories about all kinds of groups. >> the chief investigative correspondent. prior to that the national investigative correspondent for nbc, chief investigative correspondent for newsweek and reporter for the "washington post", broken repeated stories and won numerous awards. presidential politics and the coverage of the aftermath of 911. what is particularly well known is a couple of major stories, exclusive reporting on the scandal gained him

national coverage and the discovery led to a presidential impeachment. he won the national headliner award, the edgar a poll of ward, and white house correspondent award. he is the author of two new york times best-selling books and as a result both of those books have chronicled much of his reporting. in 2009 mike along with brody, who you will meet in a couple of minutes was named as one of the 50 best and most influential journalists in the nation's capitol by the washingtonian who graduated in st. louis and received his masters degree in journalism from northwestern. so we are familiar with nbc and newsweek which may be today we are not so familiar with. tell us about the news philosophy and how they are reaching an audience with news.

>> well, thank you. and actually, this actually, this is knew, uncharted territory for me in the digital space. but -- and it is evolving. i mean,, yahoo has made a commitment to be a serious news player. that it has invested heavily in recruiting people. people. katie couric is sort of chief global anchor our chief political columnist. i came aboard last year. we are hiring other people. and we are trying to basically, although yahoo is a huge silicon valley player, and the news side it is like working for a start up. we are inventing it, trying to see what works

exploring,, exploring, experimenting with different ways of delivering news, both written and video. what a couple of things stand out. one is the incredible reach that we have. yahoo has something like 800 million users globally. when i write stories now i rarely see the numbers. but you get a rough gauge by looking at comments. i never read the comments of my stories. that is the true way to go down a rabbit whole, but i do sort of like at the numbers to give you a sort of idea of what is out there. and the numbers of comments i get on what i do now is ten to 20 fold greater than

anything i would get what i wrote for newsweek or online there is a vast audience out there in the digital space which is one reason why a lot of major news organizations want to partner with yahoo. in fact, we have a have a partnership with abc that was just renewed. that was a sort of highly coveted thing. other networks wanted to partner with yahoo. we chose -- yahoo chose to continue the relationship, and that is because to the extent that more and more people are getting their news digitally and mobile this is where the audience is increasingly going to be. in some respects, although

you know in silicon valley yahoo has a a reputation as something of a legacy company. one of the early internet companies. it is i think very much a pioneer in news and we have got resources, and there is a commitment, and i am sort am sort of very excited about the opportunities. >> thank you. you are famous for these in-depth investigative stories. you spend hours and hours. how does that translate to two paragraphs? >> you know, the stories know, the stories that i am doing are a lot longer than two paragraphs.

maybe that is what people might see on their mobile or something, but it is all there. we have been able to do some pretty interesting investigative pieces. one got a lot of attention last year. i have done a lot of reporting on the government's war on terror and particularly drone strikes. we just don't -- discovered a strike in yemen last year that killed a bunch of innocent civilians in a town caused a huge uproar and that village anti- us protests backlash because one of those killed was an anti- al qaeda imam who had spoken out and announced the violence. and this is leading these

errant drone strikes leading to a real question because the whole drone program is cloaked in secrecy. what does the us government do? what does it do what it kills innocent civilians? when the military inadvertently kill civilians there are procedures for condolence. it -- they will make compensation to the families but what happens with the programs have been's cloaked in secrecy. we found a guy who guy who was the relative of some of the innocents who were killed who recounted an incredible story.

this had been a cia drone strike. we tracked him down in yemen, interviewed him by skype and were able to get a hold much of records showing that after the drone strike and after some human rights watches had written about this and the human rights group had brought him to washington to meet with members of the white house he gets called to the national security bureau in yemen, still functioning and and basically he was slipped a bag full of $150,000 in cash. greenbacks, sequentially numbered but no paperwork. the deal is, you take this money take it back your village, pay the families, but don't say anything about it and they will be no record of it. fascinating fish -- fascinating account, we were able to get the records showing how the money was ultimately wired to an account fully cooperating

the story. others were able to do it. this is the 1st window into 1st the us acknowledges that it was killing innocent civilians in a town and also what it was trying to do to sort of tap tampa down. there was a big debate in the village some people thought it was hush money. they did not want to take it. they it. they ultimately took it, but it was a fascinating window into what happens in the aftermath of the drone strike, something we were able to do. we spent we spent a lot of time on it and really gripping video. and it got a lot of attention. that is just an example of the kind of work that we can do in this sort of new era of digital news. >> fascinating.

a quick question. you invested all this time time, money, and effort in this particular story which could have been anything consumer investigative story. you put it up on the internet. do you have any concern that other reporters will just grab it after your investment and then repackage it? >> you have that concern. the "washington post" newsweek, they see your stories and do not give you credit. by and large people know that you had it 1st and where it came from. it is hard to take a story like that. it took a lot of time and effort and accumulating documents and interviews for somebody to sort of rip it off without it being clear where it is coming from.

>> senior editor of pro-public a. previously investigative editor at the washington post, executive editor of the huffington post investigative fund, project editor at the hartford current and editor at large of bloomberg news he began his news in seattle -- began his career in seattle. as the editor he was a leader on a team that received three pulitzer prizes no one for the investigation into the flaws of the hubble space telescope, another for an examination of the vice president, dick cheney, and another for exposing the details of the lobbying scandal. ..

>>

>> to investigative reporting in this sense of long-term "in-depth" work that takes reporters months to produce. at that time different kinds of elements of the ecosystem started to spring up. raise moneys from individuals and has built a newsroom of 50 people focused only on journalism with the public interest than that of course, includes a big swath of reporting for work consumers with unfairness abuse of trust and fraud in what perot public the brings

to the table is as a long-term commitment to working on stories however long they take to do a big commitment to data collection and analysis and a feeling every time we produce a story based on data we try to extend the reporting to local communities by partnering with those across the country that can do their own version. for example, restarted a series on workers' compensation with the reporter that took years to produce and he analyzed out of what is have changed in all 50 states showing the alarming disparities and how people are treated if they are hurt in oklahoma compared to new york and built into a big database

and interactive chart now we work in news organizations local and regional where they do their own versions of the story based on their research we have produced one that has been replicated a number of stories like cow pharmaceutical companies pay doctors which up and tell now has been hit in. -- had been so propublica is like the center for public integrity that bryan worked with the center for investigative reporting and as the internet has changed to produce a lot of problems for what we call legacy news organization and has opened opportunities for different

kinds two's spring up and we are one of those groups. >> in your reporting does to a dynasty as one of its roles the object to influence or change public policy? >> yes. that's right in a more focused way and implicitly it is done by anybody from the washington journal or abc news there is implicitly the idea if you expose the things that our hidden that people don't want to be known or the abuses of consumers or abuse of power that leads to your change but, permission is when we tackle a topic we want to do take it to the point where people want to act on reform

or change they can do which. that means with a choice of what we pursue the leads to the act. >> party is the investigative reporter for the wall street fire he reported for "the national journal" and will call. the first covered tax legislation into the investigative stories about congress and lobbying in the culture of washington for gore recently his examination how wall street mines government for information to trade stocks helped to inspire congressional legislation to ban members of congress from trading stock based on inside information. in 2010 with series of stories of lawmakers traveling overseas on business experience -- expose a series of abuses made congress to cancel plans on 500 million on new luxury jets and reforming

congress travels abroad. he is twice received the dirksen award for distinguished reporting on congress and the national press club award for best political reporter under age 33. i didn't know there was an age bracket. [laughter] i think it is 34. keg gets older as you do. [laughter] also was a finalist for other wars and also washington magazine called him one of washington's 50 best reporters and is a true washington d.c. native and ultimately northwestern university. party, as the paper focused on business people for many advocates the "wall street journal" is the mystery of much of the investigative reporting done buy you and your colleagues is done by consumer oriented reforms

like the rachel maddow show that leads to discover regulation. it is an oxymoron but how important is it to the fundamental mission of the journal? >> i think that the investigative journalism is incredibly important because overall to have that decline of the media or the regional newspapers that created a vacuum for people to bring big broad stories or abuses by lawmakers and they were the bread and butter of "the washington post" and "new york times" years ago as well as dozens of regional newspapers and the problem is now they don't have the money to invest in these types of stories with the issue that you talk about

putting reporters on stories for upwards of one year i think the for regional reporter went to their boss and several works on something for the year they reveal laughed out of the building. i would be. that has created an opportunity for of years. lawmakers know at the state and national level that no one is watching them and that is a real problem. >> to use a the senator of integrity or propublica to be competition to your investigative reporting? >> i think there is enough out there people can stay in there only and there is enough to cover part or another problem is people who do this well are nonprofits. we worked in business and we need to make money. hopefully over the next few

years newspapers and journalism will figure out how to make money. but if you invest in a reporter to cover a story for a year you could use the same resources to hire five people to write 500 stories so the challenge is how you try to make money with the same return. >> the "wall street journal" is somewhat unique to make money one of the first and continues to be successful at generating enough revenue from online subscriptions to be viable. when you were proposing and developing the investigative story ideas to your editors editors, to ever run in to push back that was often in the local press where that

is a great story but not sure our advertisers will be comfortable? >> i have not at the "wall street journal" i am sure other peoples have i know some have for a long time but the wall street journal is big enough that they're not dependent on one end or to individual subscribers to carry the paper. >> we have a million ideas in this room have you decide which ideas he will pursue? what kinds of things are you looking for. >> we heard of this says a tv reporter then what will

make a story on television? said is a key part but i think we have done well because we figured out a way to make almost any story visual. reticent easy. it is the challenge but emi personally interested dry want to study the next three months on something that is interesting to be or has been out there before our with have an effect on people or policy? >> the big question many of us get is you know, the victims? where are the victims? so where you come and you seem to have the ability to pull together the data and how to show that it does affect x number of people? >> with a very methodical

process to collect data were rethink there is something new. and 2.0 with the internet is while it initially was seen by us in the news business as something that was destructive but it also presents the enormous opportunity to reach people to have a two-way conversation with readers and consumer advocates and judges. once we embark on a story line we often will save you know, more about this or if you have something to tell us contact us and it is an enormous source of victims or individual stories or examples of what is happening in the old days would have taken a lot more time and effort to research. >> the "wall street journal"

is known for precision and its expertise with the no-nonsense -- no-nonsense approach so given that, what about the concept of crown sourcing for information and somehow testing if that information is real or legitimate? >> not directly but part of the problem with information that goes out on the internet is credibility and sometimes that is why you need a big game behind the affirmation because people don't know what to believe and in the 24 hour cable world that we live in even television dissenters yesterday there is a story that basically was not true. and i think the readers will have to look to their brand

their trust tuesday i trust it. that puts the burden on us to make sure we don't try to follow a story by 30 seconds but to make sure it is right. >> obviously you are one of the more trusted reporters literally in the world. thinking about this trust and got a new -- yahoo! and the internet where you wonder different guidelines? and how will you create this credibility that people wonder about the internet? >> first of all, in terms of guidelines the short answer is there are standards in our profession and standards

of professionalism. i pretty much had that in all of these experiences provide direct editor at yahoo! was my editor at "newsweek" and bureau chief and managing editor has a former editor of "new york times" magazine so it is the same professional standards perpetual large extent your work speaks for itself. people can read a story and get a pretty good sense of whether the work is there, it is corroborated is the sourcing is good or the information can be trusted.

so i do think when you do good work regardless of where it is that you have something they haven't seen elsewhere in at will break through. there is a lot out there. so many sources of news now not just the a traditional legacy organizations but whole range from nonprofits two blocks to regional news services, ideological driven news organizations that there is just a whole lot of norway's and a lot can slip through the? and it is my frustration to keep tabs on everything that is out there.

have i missed something? very often it is word-of-mouth. did you see that? because i would miss it on my twitter feed. brian tested a great piece of human rights violations by the iraqi army i happened to see it on twitter and watched the video i did not know it was on world news tonight. but that is the way we get our news these days in one sense that is good because i see a lot of things like that story i was not watching it last night i was traveling at the time but it also means very often there is so much out there that the good stories are lost some america gives huge

numbers a new platform we have been on twitter or facebook or apple tv we havel whole magazine stand of investigative stories i think it is an exciting story because there are fewer in this space and time with greater opportunity we have partnered with yahoo! and a racing to be a part of the digital future and we can see that is where it is going. >> also won other trends and i may be pollyanna of but there is a growing sophistication among the news consuming audience about what is credible and what isn't there used to be a free-for-all of something would pop up people would believe it for a long time or it came from an

organization nobody heard of but now it is coalescing of the essence of what is incredible source and what isn't. >> and bryant said something the registered to me as a former tv reporter one of the great frustrations at nbc to fit into the nightly news or the "today show" format the stories got shorter and shorter and two minutes is a huge takeout on tv news. idle labor under those same incumbrances but i just got back two weeks ago from cuba. actually it was of fascinating trip i had the first interview with the five spies since they were released we could put

together a seven minute video that ran on the web that had great stuffñr from interviews and walking the streets of havana with these guys ever celebrated as national heroes. if i had to do that for the network news it would have been two minutes if i got a real gift but i could do something much more "in-depth" and much more satisfying. >> so is that what you can how old they choose to make a large investment in your team? >> every just tell the nightly news they would not want to make that investment >> i'm not sure about that

but we are encouraged and demanded about the story of the iraqi army in those commit the war crimes. but that was not the kind of thing that would be desirable at the breakfast our best people are having dinner. we had a shorter piece on world news and then along groupies that appeared on line and facebook. so that type of reach justifies the investment that abc makes. for us there is almost no story we cannot tell. that gives us the opportunity to expand in terms of the business they make more money from television and what is on line. so we figure if you do good stories and they are available people will find some.

>> following up on the comment of the increase i am not sure i agree but the increase of the sophistication of the consumers starting teachers differentiate on the internet what is legitimate or illegitimate source, how does the "wall street journal" feel with that. you don't want to go down the rabbit hole but that can be hard to listen to but how does the wall street journal differentiate self? first of all, the myriad of trade but trying to look at the legitimate publications of all the other stuff that is out there. >> we have the advantage of a brand-name we have been there 100 years a lot of people trust the "wall

street journal" or not but they know who we are to make a decision to say this comes from the conservative point of view i agree or i don't. come on the journalism side we have written a lot of stories that are pro consumer intended to arafat public policy for good that leads to policy changes. said is what we would like to have as a reputation but going back tears credibility be careful you don't make mistakes because all you have a short brand name but as soon as you make mistakes you do that -- to lose that they don't have the trust of the readers. >> people are concerned much

of the information on line is not filtered. you are an editor. is that because of faults like you and editors that start to clean up disinformation that increases the credibility? >> it'll think it is starting to clean it up but the dynamic of the web is a quick accountability and quick response and dissemination through twitter and others with questions about what popped up cleans up on its own a little bit. if something comes up this is not price from the source that is questionable with that accountability pled overtime thaddeus korea's something comes from abc news or the journal of "the new york times" has a restaurant their bedrock of

credibility than if it comes from someplace no one has heard of because to learn that these reports are built on flimsy evidence. >> have a right to open to all of you. we have an incredible opportunity to figure out what they're looking for from us. >>. >> ever is in chicago talking to investigative reporters over the weekend talk about regional papers the think they had a strong investigative team their libido ferguson?

[laughter] >> i don't know enough about that they have done very good work there. >> there were just awarded for coverage. >> are you talking about prior? >> prior to the event. >> that is hard to know but i know the "wall street journal" has done great reporting that is how it faced its own struggles it is hard to know if that is the case but i would not be critical they have shown themselves to be very tough.

>> i thank you do great work to change minds is a crucial part of our democracy but to flip that on his head with the regional papers. one example is there is a regular column that is supposed to be a watchdog on the government. the journalist is top notch with his investigations and his rating. however the fact he has to produce every single week i don't think always gives them the ability to your drill down and there is always of pressure to have content on a regular basis and it seems one story that may have validity is twisted around because it may be a different angle and i fear and experiences in up

actually doing the opposite to build mistrusting government where it should not be. that is what we don't need had to deal with that as an editor of the hartford chronicled deal with something like that. >> is that the paper? >> perhaps. [laughter] >> talk about the advantages of people having access to more news and for them to distribute their news more widely is true but the downside is with the 24/7 cycle the need for the quick updates without competitive landscape that in the informational and you have if you don't get it out quickly somebody else will then you are behind the curve of the sources press against to wink the "in-depth" thoughtful longer-term work even on the

beach level not just investigative work. it is a problem. what has happened is that ecosystem creates these new organizations to fill the gaps that there is an adjustment to preserve stronger accountability but still a work in progress. . .