six-year-old who gets tormented at school tormented at home. it is not pleasant at all. of course you read about him and wonder maybe he wasn't warned. just the circumstances that he was born into and that is the question people still have today. are people born evil or two they become evil because of what happened throughout their lives? started to not question that people have no answer to. >> were the brothers abused in the same manner? >> not officiously. charles his older brother was a bit homer. he knew how to deal with people is a bit better. also a rowdy child that he had a little bit of finesse about him. he knew how to do what his father had little bit more so even though she was punished, never to the extent that jesse

was. he went on to have a very good life. he became an owner of a couple of restaurants. he married twice. he had seven children lots of grandchildren. they still live on today. none of them are named after their uncle, jesse. none of them wanted to talk to me. you know, they don't want any connection. so it's not to say maybe deep down he didn't have a darker side said he didn't allow it to come out. [inaudible] we have books for sale that the registers. buy a book and have it signed. we have some treats for everyone. thank you, everyone.

[applause] >> tiamat very much. -- thank you very much. [inaudible conversations] >> and now, "after words" on booktv. what surprised winner, eric foner looks at the future for fugitive slaves during the 19th century. he speaks with edna greene medford, chair of the history department at howard green university. >> host: we are joined today by professor eric foner, the

professor of history at columbia university. professor foner is the author or editor of two dozen volumes many of them award winners including the fiery trial: abraham lincoln and american slavery which won a pulitzer and lincoln prize in 2011. professor foner, thank you for joining us today. >> guest: thank you very much for having me. >> host: "gateway to freedom: the hidden history of the underground railroad" how did you arrive at this subject in this title class >> guest: well, the title is meant to reflect the book centers on new york city although it deals with a lot of other places. the title is meant to suggest that new york was a game they went fugitive slaves got to new york city, they were then very quickly sent to upstate new york, eventually canada and they could really achieve freedom. new york was a pivotal turning point in the journey from

slavery to freedom. i got interested in the subject completely accidentally. a few years ago a student of nine who was working on a senior thesis in colombia about sidney howard k. and abolition as journalist who is interested in his journalistic career. she said to me and the papers we have better: be a library, there is this document about fugitive slaves. you might find it interesting. i filed that away in one day i was up there and asked for this box yet i never heard of this document. i never seen it cited anywhere. basically for two years 1855 1856, the journalist, also an activist in the railroad recorded the experiences of over 200 men women and children who came to new york city on the way to freedom and been a journalist, he interviewed them and took down their stories, who

owned them why they escaped, how they escaped where he spent time and even how much money he spent on train tickets present. i don't see anything like it and i decided to try to track down the leads in the record of fugitives and paints a picture of the underground railroad of the came through new york city. the book began with the document. usually as you know you start within historical question and try to find the sources to answer. here it's the opposite. i worked out for trying to piece together a narrative of history. >> host: book was the underground railroad? if you could describe what it was and how it operated and how many people took advantage of the system. >> guest: right. everybody in american history is heard the term the underground railroad it is very widely known

as a phrase. it is easy to say what it was not. it is not a highly organized regularize system were set loose in stations and station masters. it was much more loosely organized the map. the underground railroad was a group of local network of abolitionists at this. some in the south mostly want to cut north of the mason-dixon line, either in rural areas et cetera pennsylvania or cities like philadelphia, new york, syracuse boston. they communicated with each other and they are dedicated to helping fugitive slaves. the initiative comes from the slaves. the underground railroad was not telling slaves to escape. the first thing was slaves running away in various modes. but then they would make contact

with either agents of the underground railroad or people who weren't asians but might know there's a guy up the road here who may help them out. so it's a loose network. it rises and falls over time. they were not in existence for several years. literally it was a set system. how many escaped? nobody knows because this is a secret. i estimate this is an educated guess. maybe 1000 slaves a year got out of slavery to the north and canada in the 30 years before the civil war. 30000 people. that's a substantial number. there were 4 million ways so this is not destroying the duchenne of slavery. 30,000 people gaining their freedom with the assistance of activists is something we can look back on with the pride in

our history. >> host: you speak of the underground railroad as a qualified public institution. what do you mean by that? >> guest: and way as the reviewer pointed out the subtitle of my book the hidden history might be slightly misleading. the new york part of this is unknown so it's hidden. the people involved in the underground railroad for abolitionists and more involved in the abolitionist movement. on one hand they were engaged in secret and illegal activities and sheltering and assisting escaped slaves. on the other hand they are going to public meetings. they are petitioning legislatures of the states. some places are holding bake sales you might almost call it. bears, desirous to help fugitive slaves. when you get to upstate new york

lake syracuse comments completely open. the key activist they are advertised as the newspapers. he said i'm the underground railroad. anyone who knows about fugitive slaves finance. the authorities that there were anti-slavery. depending on where you go it was more or less more or less secret and more or less open. in new york he was pretty secret because new york had close ties to the south with a lot of public officials who are happy to help apprehend fugitive slaves. it was the mass public essay is here accused for albany or places like that. >> to talk about that. the other sentiment in new york. slavery in the in 1827. but there's sentiment in favor of the south fremont time after that. why is that?

what is the connection with new york? >> this is something not emphasized. i'm a new yorker is due out now and we don't emphasize this in the view of our own history. we pride ourselves at being bastions of liberalism tolerance, multicultural city. it wasn't like that in the first part of the 19th century. first of all slavery was a vigorous presence in new york in the colonial era and lasted all the way down to 1827. even after that, there were slaves on the streets of new york. southerners were allowed to bring slaves with them for up to nine months until 1841. that is 20 years before the civil war. there were still slaves visible on streets of new york. new york was economically tied to the slave south. new york merchants controlled the cotton trade.

your bankers financed expansion of slavery the south. new york show builders but the shift. the most important southern monthly periodical before the civil war, which was published in new york city that new york city is -- depends on slavery as much as charleston does. the economy of the city was closely tied to that of the south and not have vacations. they wanted to appear in this. politicians are pro-southern and their attitude on the sectional conflict. the abolitionist movement in new york was quite small and weak compared to other places. on the other hand, new york had a vigorous free black community people willing to take to the streets to protest the apprehension of fugitive slaves. in a sense, new york is in new york is an epitome of the sectional conflict.

it is a house divided like the nation itself. >> your point is well taken that there is a vibrant free black community in new york. they are very much involved in supporting these fugitives arriving. they are farming vigilance communities with white new yorkers as well force. free black people have a positive role to play in the underground railroad and what happens to people who were alive in new york. why have we not heard very much about that before? >> guest: that is absolutely right and i try to emphasize that in my book. the so-called vigilance communities, boston, new york, syracuse which were what they call themselves groups trying to help fugitive slaves were almost entirely black except when in boston for a while. they were created by free blacks. the one in new york city, david

ruggles, a black abolitionists. but they were white abolitionists involved. is interracial organizations and much of the money came from white. most free black people were rather poor. they had limited economic opportunities. money was raised among men. in new york they went to lewis topping, a well-to-do merchant who is a dedicated abolitionist. they went to jared smith a wealthy out-of-state abolitionist. whites are contributing and taking part but most of it is by free blacks and unknown to us. they were fugitives hidden on ships. dock workers would notify local abolitionist that do this. or send them to the anti-slavery office. blacks who worked at the rabbit depots. blacks who are at hotel desk

clerks or domestic workers. they said that her team as they frequently did what they say they would say look, you can become free if you want. their activity was very, very important. why don't we hear more about it? after the civil war, they wrote their own histories. they wrote memoirs. they wrote about the underground railroad. even though there's a lot of information they tended to make this the kind of white enterprise in giving assistance to help with black people many were heroic. the story with few in the reminisces in the late 19th century and it's taken a long time for scholars to put the free black community is back at the center of assistance to a fugitive slaves. postcode indeed.

you mentioned by 1830 there is the presence of militant abolitionism and a company that is a greater increase in flight from slavery. why is that happening? life that have mean that this time in american history? >> guest: there has been anti-slavery sentiment. in new york, domitian society was created in 1785 1786 to push for abolition in new york. but those groups were very moderate compared to what came later. they did very important things. they set up the african free school to educate black children, a major theme. many of them owned slaves even as they are campaigning for the abolition of slavery and they certainly did not violate the law. they try to help fugitive slaves legally but they say we will not violate state law federal law to help e-book out of slavery.

the new generation that comes about in the late 1820s 1830s arises out of the evangelical movement which inspires some white people and blacks to think they can rid society of the sin of slavery right away. they also had this militant free black community coming into its own which is partly because the opposition of the colonists society established dedicated to getting rid of the whole black population in the united states and they find that a tremendous threat to their status and mobilize against it. by the 1830s you have these two groups who come together. evangelical whites and militant blacks to form a much activist and radical abolitionist movement. and they start assisting each of his slaves and illegal ways.

it's against the law to help a fugitive slave. this is low law of god not the law of man we are abiding by here. more slaves to start escaping because of knowledge that there are people willing to assist them. slaves that escaped ever since slavery. in the colonial. come his slaves try to escape. there were no organizations to help them. they probably got recaptured back then. now you have groups being formed who publicly say we are going to help fugitive slaves and you said that percolates to the south and inspires more people to escape. >> host: i think the main point you make is runaway has broader implications than just what the individual actors seem to think yes. for instance, the actions of fugitives and their allies by an explosive questions about the balance between federal and

state authority, the extent to which the laws of slave states extended into the north and relationship of the federal government to slavery. they came and talked about this, especially the issue of brandishing became a source of debate from the very beginning of the nation's founding. >> host: >> guest: absolutely. this was debated in the constitution has a fugitive slave clause. it doesn't mention the word slavery slavery. since persons held to labor escaping from one state to another must be returned. many parts of it. it doesn't say who has to return them. federal government state what happens. doesn't say that in the constitution. a fugitive slave law was passed in 1793. a national one. that was also very weak and put

on the owner. if they grabbed a fugitive, he can take them back. it wasn't that easy to do although there were certainly owners and agencies in the south, slave hunters trying to grab fugitives in the north. there were people who resisted them. in 1850 the federal government passes a new law the fugitive slave act which makes it a federal responsibility. the federal government will send marshals into northern state to grab fugitives. it sets up a whole new office at the federal commissioner who would hear these cases and send them back. even the army can be used if there is a danger of a riot. this is a very strict, a very trichotomy and punishment to people who help fugitive slaves or even people who refuse to help the government capture them. it led to a lot of opposition in the north on the basis of states

rights. this is the south demanding federal action to overturn local procedures, local laws in the north. it's probably the most vigorous expansion of federal power over the state in the hole. before the civil war. so yes, this is part of the run-up to the civil war. the sectional controversy and it becomes part of that. the point i wanted to make which is obvious in the way but we might forget it is without slaves running away none of this would've happened. it is the initiative of slave resistance in the first place that triggers the sectional conflict over fugitive slaves. even though people did not run away thinking i will become an issue in the national political debate their actions did help force the conflict onto the agenda of national politics. >> host: it is worth noting as

well that the fugitive slave act of 1850 was the most un-american of laws because it didn't give the person who was accused of having been a fugitive and a right to testify in court and did actually pay the commissioner more money to release the person into actually release the person. >> you're absolutely right. the fugitive could not testify on his own behalf. a sickly it was just an operation. the owner would turn up with a deeper description and say here is proof that i own -- this guy escaped his profile and i purchased 10 is indeed a matter of fact. it's like finding a piece of furniture. it was a property operation, not something about human eating

your property does not the right to testify in that case. no trial by jury. no local authorities involved. many people who are not abolitionist on the set of regis violation of civil liberties in the united states and therefore that is why tightens tension. many northerners thought this was an unjust judicial procedure. >> host: of course the war comes and president lincoln makes it very clear the south has nothing to fear in terms of him attacking domestic institutions including slavery. in his first non-girly dress, he is very clear he is going to enforce all the laws including the fugitive slave act. he had been very clear before he actually was sworn in that he would not compromise on the

expansion of slavery into the territory in terms of the fugitive slave act he was willing to actually ensure the act was enforce as long as people were truly free were not caught up in it. we could never be certain. >> guest: that is exactly right. lincoln as you know was not an abolitionist. before the war, lincoln had said he was strongly opposed to the western expansion of a very enough or called for violation of the fugitive slave law. lincoln was a lawyer, a man who believed in the rule of law in a famous letter in 1855 to his friend joshua speed lincoln said about fugitives. he said i hate to see them hunted down but i bite my lip and keep silent. why did he keep silent? this was in the constitution.

this is federal law. he said i don't believe in a higher law. i don't believe you can abide by the moral law rather than the actual law on the books. in the secession crisis he said i don't care what we do about fugitive slaves to want to get concessions on that not the expansion of slavery although i would like the slave want to be added so a free person could not be caught up given the fugitive slave law operates free people could be brought before a commission. some of the fact i used to be my slave. he can't even testify on his own behalf. they did enforce the fugitive slave law at the beginning of the war. placed in the beginning by the way to the union army and the army sends them back to their owners early on. pretty quickly that begins to fall apart. writing and of 1861 the army is

no longer in most cases sending fugitives back and lincoln himself is saying if get to our lines they are free. i'm not going to turn them back into slavery. this is a sign of how the war itself quick way begins to destabilize the institution of slavery. >> host: you introduce very courageous and sometimes quite colorful figures such as whitney hauer jay, editor of the anti-slavery standard, a freeborn black man who was a key underground railroad agent for people coming into philadelphia and who himself kept a record of some of the people who arrived really interesting details of their lives. then there was william jay and john jay the second who are very much involved in working with fugitives and sometimes actually

defending them or represent them legally. i was most intrigued however by napoleon. can you tell us a little bit about that particular figure and how instrumental he was to fugitive in new york. >> guest: we napoleon is certainly one of the most important figures. i studied the 19th century. i knew about williams still. i never heard of louis napoleon. when i started looking through the document, they will stay napoleon to enter the station. i said who is this napoleon? eventually it turns out louis napoleon, a black man born in new york in 1800 which meant the law had to pass 1799 for gradual in the patient. he was not a slave exactly but he had to serve an apprenticeship of 21 years to his owner until he became fully

free. in the 1820s he finally becomes free. basically by the 1840s napoleon is working in the office of sidney howard gay the antislavery office within his taper is published but his main job is to help fugitive slaves. he scours the dogs. he is out there looking for those hidden non-bose. when williams still sends people by train from philadelphia to new york, louis napoleon meets them at the train depot and brings them to the office and then they are sent to upstate new york and canada. louis napoleon goes to court to get rates of habeas corpus for people -- slaves brought to the state trying to get them free. questions are seen as he is illiterate. there are papers that is marked with an ax. he signed his name with an ax and yet he is an activist. he's very courageous and he

takes part in legal cases. he's a remarkable guy and i note nothing about him until i discovered him in the manuscript. he mentioned john jay the second. the polling the london to freeze and slaves brought into this state by a virginian named london, the lawyer for the virginian says in the case, is this louis napoleon who brought this case the emperor of france? john jay who was representing the slaves says no no he is a much better man. napoleon was a very upstanding and courageous man. >> host: and he is just one of many african-americans who are so intimately involved in helping fugitives. we know so much about harriet tubman remains several trips out to free relatives and people she didn't even know. we don't know about these other

people. we don't know about people until now i think who are escaping either individually or in groups. can you tell us a little bit about how their experiences showed the diversity of why people liked, what they encountered along the way and what they actually received in terms of assistance once they arrived in new york. i'm thinking of people like winnie passy, peter matthews, william jordan those folks whose names we've never heard before but it really interesting tories. >> guest: these are all names in the record of fugitives. slaves who came to new york and wrote down their experiences and of course they have been lost in history up to this point. unlike harriet tubman who's pretty well-known of course. the thing that struck me in reading through the document is

the incredible variety of ways in which people escaped, reasons for their escaping, how they escape. some escaped on foot which is a traditional idea. they hate during the day and went through the woods at night. most of them escaped that way. many escaped on boats. they were ship captains in virginia who are willing to hide on boats heading north. the slaves had to pay them money to do that. some of them escaped on train. frederick douglass did that in 1838. if you could get the free papers of a free black person you could get on a train and go north and now it's easier than going through the words. about the installer appropriated the horse-drawn carriages of their owners and fled from maryland to pennsylvania. many escaped in groups. post another thing that surprised me. groups of relatives sometimes

women with small children. they were helped by also as a people. below the mason-dixon line they were generally held by black people either slave or free you would point them on their way or give them food or hide them among their way. they didn't go from station to station. there were stations in the south except for one or two. they just relied on the health of black people they encountered until they reached maybe wilmington, delaware just below the mason-dixon line and where there was tom iscariot and irregular rights group in wilmington helping fugitives. once i got over the border into pennsylvania, they encountered many quaker farmers in southern pennsylvania willing to help them and then they were sent to philadelphia where williams still ran the vigilance committee. he would quickly put them on a train to new york to notify sidney howard k. by telegram.

two are coming or something like that. napoleon would meet them at the depot. you could not stay in philadelphia. you're liable to be captured at any moment. the point was quickly to get them moving on to upstate new york which is a lot safer. after 1850 had to get to canada because of the fugitive slave law you are not safe anywhere in the united states. it is a commentary that these are people. we often think of people immigrating to the united states to seek freedom. here were people who have to flee the united states for another country to enjoy liberty. >> host: indeed, indeed. not just fugitives from slavery either, but free black if only the united states and going to canada because they don't feel safe anymore in the north and they certainly don't feel safe in places like philadelphia and

new york either. just go you are right. first off switch are active. you could escape 30 years before they raised a family, lived a perfectly law-abiding life in new york and you are still liable to be grabbed and sent back to slavery. moreover, because of the way the law operated, it is hard to prove you want displayed at the guy who claimed you were his slaves. so yes, in the 1850 -- the 1850s is the only decade for the plot ovulation of new york city actually declined. several thousand -- black people, free or fugitive left for canada. some of them went to england to avoid the danger posed by the fugitive slave laws. it affected the whole black community, not just fugitive slaves. >> host: you mentioned the fact that sometimes women are

fleeing as well. often with children in tow. it is a story we don't care very much about. it is very difficult for women to do that. women in the the north are very much involved in helping these fugitives when they arrive in the cities as well. can you tell us about what they are doing. >> host: black-and-white winning. in southern pennsylvania and you have quaker families including women, one of them who i wrote about have a very colorful, interesting person. race and a lewis. part of the quaker rule wrote about how she and other women had a sewing circle when they made clothing for fugitives. fugitives were wearing rags when they escaped with slave clothing and they looked like slaves. she said we didn't want them to look like slaves so we made this clothing for them. in new york and other cities,

women held anti-slavery desires or fears where they sold banks and they would go to help fugitive slaves. bake sales to help fugitives. a new york committee of black women in new york city in the 1850s was holding fares to raise money to help the fugitives. was both interracial and mail and female working to assist fugitives laze in the northern states. >> host: i'm always struck by the fact abolitionists are anti-slavery but many are also anti-black. how do you explain this? >> guest: you know racism as you know was deeply in debt it in northern as well as southern society in the 19th century. this is something that i often find difficult to explain for

students find it difficult to understand. how can you be anti-slavery and racist at the same time? first of all, plenty of reasons to oppose slavery with nothing to do with race. it's an economic drag on the country. you can think it gives the south too much political power and they block laws that northerners want. you can think that you don't want slavery going into the western territories because you don't like why people. people who want to settle in kansas in places like that don't want blacks around and they do want slaves or free blacks around so they oppose the expansion of slavery on that ground. there's a whole range of reasons why people are critical of slavery and even the same person can be contradict or read. definitely an abolitionist. no question about it. he would not higher black people to work in his business.

he was any big mercantile firm. he would not have black clerks working there. he said the reason is why people are not going to come in if they see by people working there. but on the other hand he had blacks in his home in brooklyn heights and he gave a lot of money to be anti-slavery movement. in his own life you can see these contradictions which only proves people in history are complicated. >> host: absolutely. despite the movement throughout the north you have states passing personal liberty laws. what was the reaction of southerners to this? >> guest: personal liberty laws which many northern states pass try to set up procedures either to just make it more fair so they would say the key is fugitive has a trial by jury or they actually try to impede the rendition of fugitives by saying

no public to show no share a the public jails cannot be used to house a fugitive. southerners are very put off alarmed by these laws because they seem to be a direct violation of the constitutional obligation of the north to return fugitive slaves. if they are going to pass laws taking away that constitutional right that we have, how can we trust they will not violate other constitutional rights as slaveowners have. these laws became another part of the sectional conflict. you get the ironic situation for northern states call for notification of the federal fugitive slave law whereas southerners usually associate with the doctrine of nullification. >> host: when the war is over and there are no more fugitives to fit the patience of underground railroad's, we

channel the efforts and may try to ensure equality for the newly emancipated. given the role especially given the role of african-americans the role that african-americans have played in a union, why was it so difficult for people to convince white americans that african-americans were entitled to more than just freedom that they were entitled to equality as well? >> guest: well lydia maria child, great abolitionists and the first woman to entry "politico" newspaper was the editor of the anti-slavery standard before sidney howard gay took over the post. right at the end of the civil war, something to the effect that the problem is slavery was abolished because of a miserable

military necessity, not a moral awakening. the abolitionist movement had called on people north and south to have this moral transformation to understand and admit that slavery was a sin and a crime and once they acknowledge that they would abolish slavery. that is not how slavery got abolished. slavery was abolished as a warmonger. that's the emancipation proclamation was. many people came to support the abolition of slavery because they felt it was necessary to defeat the south. that doesn't carry with it a commitment to equality. as you know in the immediate aftermath of the civil war as the southern states pass measures trying to almost put blacks back into slavery the so-called black codes and things like that, many were roused by that and outraged, even if they weren't egalitarians. they were trying to undo the civil war. with abolish slavery, folks.

these rebels won't accept that. for his time they supported measures to protect the basic rights of the former slaves. the civil rights act of 1866. eventually giving blacks the right to vote in the south which launches radical re-construction. pretty widespread support in the north for complicated reasons. by 1870, racism is reasserting itself in a commitment to black equality not just in the south but the north is with varying and that is the story eventually of the ending of reconstruction. >> host: why does that happen? certainly the racism was always fair, but why by this time to the north say enough already. we are not going to do anything else to help these people. >> host: as you know i voted

600 page book and i sat to summarize it. you know racism as you know has a history. it is not constant over time. racism did wane a bit in the end of the civil war because the service of black soldiers 200,000 black soldiers had thought and some die to save the nation and that convinced many that they deserved many citizenship rights. by the 1870s people want normalcy. they don't want a constant crisis. after a word there is a desire to return back to normal. by the 1876 country address the severe economic depression which is public sentiment in the north away from southern issues to economic questions of unemployment and that sort of thing. i think the commitment wanes. it's a complicated story. racism has a lot to do with it obviously. so does the rise of social

darwinism among intellectuals and others. the idea that you can't do much to change the hierarchy of the world. people at the top are the fittest, survival of the fittest. to take those at the bottoms and uplift them is sorted against nature. it is like trying to save a species which is doomed because of the evolutionary conflict of something like that. for all of these become grounds for people saying we tried. we did our best. there's nothing more we can do. it is up to them. had to black people themselves to force their way in society. the desire to intervene to help them is pretty much gone by the end of the 1870s. >> host: and yes, you are very familiar with the post-emancipation era so i feel

comfortable asking you this question even though this is not really a focus of your book. given all of that in the post-emancipation era and was not done or ended up failing even though there were absurd, what do you see as the greatest failure of the post-emancipation era? we are not supposed to be involved in what is, but it's always fun to do that anyway. >> guest: you know to be the greatest failure is a simple thing which is the commitment to enforcing the law. you know the south and african-americans are going to have plenty of problems after the war. no way you would have utopia right away after slavery. the south was devastated. the price of cotton was solid

throughout this period. african-americans came out of slavery with nothing in terms of money, physical possessions. those who have distributed land, the famous 40 acres would have given an economic foundation to the freedom these 4 million people had acquired it obviously it is better to have land and not to have land if you're an agricultural society. that would have been a panacea either. why farmers bring dire straights who owns their own land in the 19th century. to me the failure which could've been avoided it is possible to imagine scenarios where this didn't happen is simply the enforcement of the law. the federal government saying we have passed these laws. we have changed the constitution to create equality before the law for all people regardless of race and now we are going to force this. they enforced it for a while but then the commitment waned and it took almost another 100

years into what we call the second reconstruction of the 1960s when again the federal government finally steps in. you had a mass movement forcing them to do it of course. finally the federal government stepped in to enforce the law. the army, national guard and once that happens, things change. and people understand they have to abide by what the law is. the people in the south didn't understand not prior to the 1870s. >> host: so no redistribution of the land. it would made much difference. >> guest: i don't think it was the full solution yet it's much better to have land but the plight of the small farmer was very desperate throughout the south in throughout a world in the last quarter the 19th century. many whites who own land lost their land that is why you have the populist movement in the

1890s. land in and of itself was not enough. >> host: in my research in virginia, that is very different. >> guest: i am talking about the cotton south. >> host: in other areas there is a possibility people would have at least been economically independent. they may have been very poor but they would not have had to rely the very people who had played them. just go right. as you know in virginia a considerable number of african-americans did provide land, but they still lost their right to vote. >> host: and they lost the land, to overtime. >> guest: eventually they lost their land. >> host: exactly. and the fugitives have i been in new york what most price you about that collection?

>> guest: you know what most surprised me was the incredible resourcefulness people planned for years how they were going to escape for other people who seized an opportunity that happened to come upon them. i heard captains willing to take here then going right now. it is this variety. we're talking mostly about people from the upper south. that is too far. most people are from maryland, district of columbia where slavery is little different from the deep south although it is still slavery. it is just a variety of experiences, that no two escapes are the same. note to personal experiences are the same. the one thing constant in here is the desire for freedom. when gay asked people why they

escaped, send a specific reasons. my master treated me so brutally. often times they said my wife was soldier i was afraid of his going to these old. many of them said i was just tired of being a slave. i wanted to be free. it is this: i do scope of experiences and impressions that really struck me. by the way let me say the record of fugitives is now online. we have digitalized at columbia university with a transcript. anyone who wants to pour through it and i recommend it to anyone interested in history. you can get google record of fugitives and you will find a link to it. it has been put up by the columbia university library system. read through it. as hating stuff. >> host: excellent. i know you are familiar with the

williamsville collection two in philadelphia and recorded information from fugitives arriving there as well. how do the two record compare? >> guest: by the way william is also online at the pennsylvania historical society. still kept these records. not all of them have survived. very similar although not a churn the last psych gay's you don't get the rich stories that gay recorded the tennessee is a journalist and writing as if he's writing newspaper articles here. what is important as you can use the two together to link up these stories. over half of the people who pass through new york city came from williams still from philadelphia. still talking about experiences. gay talks about experiences and gives more information about how they got out of the south.

gay gives more information on how they got to new york and where he sent them from new york. also, you can use them to see if these stories are consistent with the slaves making everything up? the stories are very consistent. what they told gay for quite consistent and you can use the information. who are their owners? when i first started looking i said is this true? i escape from colonel hollingsworth plantation in maryland and he owned 50 slaves. all right. let's go to the senses. dairy is in exactly the right county with this 50 slaves. you begin to find the slaves are quite reliable when you can check them against other sources of the time. you can with the information and go back to the "baltimore sun" and find fugitive slaves when

the owner will actually put an ad in the newspaper. so-and-so has escaped. reward, ran away, reward. one hundred dollars for the person who can get him. that's a funny phrase. if anyone can get him and bring him back $100. that's a good illustration of who own them where they came from. you put all of these evidence together and get a pretty comprehensive picture. >> host: do we have any sense of how successful these people were who did escape to the north of baghdad douglas of course. >> guest: the problem is most of them disappear. some of them pop up in the canadian census in 1861 there is a census in canada and a number of fugitives either the mayor. they are recorded in ontario opposite of flow in your toronto these black settlements if re-enslaved blacks are fugitives.

so we know for some of them what they were doing their job. they were married, have children. most of them disappear. we cannot track them down. some of the most famous ones you can. henry box brown who skates by having them shipped in a crate and not through new york and eventually to new england. we know his life story. we know for we know frederick douglas. some of them harry jacobs pops up in these records. top man, but most of them we really know very little about what happened after they managed to get to freedom. >> host: is extraordinary how willing people are to go to great lengths for freedom. they are walking great distances, men and women. if i have to walk more than a few blocks i am getting into my car to do it. but these people are walking sometimes 200 miles. so it is just extraordinary.

these are extraordinary stories that you have. what would you like the reader to take from this? >> guest: thank you hideaway for saying that. this book is a little different. i did want to really humanize it. not that the others were automatons, but with these individual stories of unknown people which can be gleamed from the documents we put together here. i want people to get a sense of what it was like to escape and some of the dangers they felt is being chased by god and freezing weather and walking hundreds of miles. they escaped from jail. i think it is just these stories that lays, of ordinary people we know very little about it how they escaped and why they

escaped. i also would like people to take away admiration for people on the underground railroad. we have gone through a fairly tense period of race relations in the last few months because there is some famous event taking place in ferguson in staten island, new york. this is an example of black and white people working together. people working together for a just cause. that is part of our history we can not back on with great pride. >> host: there is a serious airing this week titled book of. it is of course about those african-americans who have actuated new york at the end of the american revolution. so they are talking about in earlier fugitive population. have you had the opportunity to

see any episodes? >> guest: do know, i don't watch tv very much. i shouldn't say that because we are on tv. i heard about it and i hope it will be repeated are maybe i can just stream it online. people have told me about it. of course it is new york city. during the revolution, new york was occupied by the british. the british offered freedom to any slaves of the petrie at who got to their lives in several thousand waves got to new york city. when the war was over george washington came out to negotiate the evacuation of new york. would like all the slaves back in general clinton the british commander said unfortunately i can't give you the slaves back because it would be dishonorable. we promise these people and they would be dishonorable to turn them back into slavery.

clinton was on abolitionists. slavery in the west indies. he wasn't trying to abolish slavery they said the king keeps his promises. somewhere about 3000 slaves left with the british, including a couple of george washington's own slaves. by the way, keep an eye out for a couple of my slaves. now they scattered all over the place. some ended up in canada, some britain, some in sierra leone. some of them were sold back into slavery by the british and ended up in the west indies. they have their own very interesting stories. the 3000 or so african-americans gained their liberty through the british, not to the americans is another sign of the contradiction in american history right from the first of our republic. >> host: absolutely. the book is titled "gateway to

freedom: the hidden history of the underground railroad". professor foner, thank you so much for joining us today. >> guest: thank you so much for having me. >> here's a look at the current best-selling nonfiction books according to the harvard bookstore.

>> host: princeton professor, when we write history don't rewrite it as conflict? >> guest: i think a lot of teeple to write history as conflict. i think there is an entirely good reason why that is so. that is to say that war was and is and always will be a major part of human history. i suppose the reason -- one of the reasons i got to write the undivided past was because i thought that the predilection today to see the world in manicured terms divided essentially between the good guys and bad guys has in my view become a mindset which is