tv Key Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN April 3, 2015 4:30pm-6:31pm EDT
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money -- the real minimum wage is 20 percent below where it was when ronald reagan was president. and even he was not complaining that it was doing a lot of damage to employment and productivity. it is tempting to think that everything is tradable. across international borders, if you say how much is tradable is less than half. there there is a lot of scope for raging ways is an area where there will not be brought competition. >> questions from the audience. what is the role of trade on technology?
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as it relates to the relative scale people in different cultures. >> this is what i want to bring up. a lot of the disruption that people attribute of the last 15 to 20 years has had a great deal to do. especially wto. an enormous surge the sharp decline. and fortunately much closer to equilibrium policy side an extra five years were not look anything like it.
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the disrupted power is underappreciated so it does not have -- i am in favor for negotiating trade agreements. we want surgery it to the most obvious rather than something more subtle. we thought the internet was amazing thing. i don't see how it became. i just don't think that's possible. the other thing i would say is, i do do think that we are, you know, the trade does circumcise some of the things that we do. ..
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we should be thinking about technology working hand-in-hand at this point. even in the '80s if this is quite out of date still has not permeated the consciousness. >> i want to agree in part. but first because they are strongly associated with each other. we would have more but not for the use of transporting a cross-country but for the technology represented in their great deal else. what we call trade tied up
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with the technology. i would disagree respectfully on one aspect. i agree with david in my thinking has evolved over 20 years but almagest changing trade patterns impactive the patterns? it is a different statement to assert that all that is due to a treat -- of a trade agreement. we'll get their counterfactual. he asserted with china's succession - - succession what is the counterfactual?
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prior to the succession they were not high. so the main reason why china is exporting more than the united states it is producing six times as much as in 1989 and more technological ways. conceivably we could have passed all whole new set of protectionist measures that if the united states had maintained the trade policies through tight as they stood before with the wto would they have observed? the vast majority.
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that is a very important because if trade developments impact them presumptively trade agreements are bad idea. sova to order so power the barriers being changed in the united states or the affected country? my reading of the evidence is the market is already substantially open. to get those trade agreements the reduction of barriers to other countries grows quite large relative to any impact.
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>> alas ted different one going in a different direction. from the end of the 19th century white kia that process continue to be a shorter workweek with no loss of income? maybe a the existential question. all of this change is our view of the good life and how we think about our time. that the expert craft furniture makers to put together products for eye kievan something sounds lost in that to me. >> it is a great question
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and if you have read that article he talked about to make predictions of what happened to our generation. he was born on an extrapolated those funds to get that right. to looking at people that were that wealthy to go fox hunting vocationally but people are now working 15 hours per week they're actually working a lot more. there is more rica's spend our money on now. think they enjoyed working and bob putnam describe what happened.
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and with other social indicators how they plummet to have the job. certainly it is not as rapid as we think of new ways for meaning of life. said to have been of productivity growth. >> if you look at the introductory textbook there is something called the backward pending labor supply curve that as wages go up because it is attractive when you have enough income you take a
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bunch in the jurors so that labor supply looks like this. is largely not there. and it used to be true purpose of the high-wage people more or less hours demo page people. the image of the '30's is the ceo went out to play golf at 4:00 and the workers worked 60 hours a week. if you look today, for the first time in economic history, people who have higher wages on average consistently, are choosing to work more or are finding themselves working more hours than those with low wages. it is and all because they are not able to get more work.
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there is choices they're working more hours. that is a more leisurely nirvana. so that said a half to say they work 45 percent more hours in one year then northern europeans. i am not sure i would want to call that a great virtue. of american society, but to the alternative who are found in the absence of work
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but those who have spent time in communities with 20 percent unemployment, i don't think that is a visiting foreign relation and it is something that needs to be thought about of a great deal. but it sure seems like so to repair what needs to be paired -- repaired there is viable work that needs to be done in is much less clear for the viable business model to get it done. but if i am right if there
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is work to be done with a capital balance model to do get it done to suggest the important roles for public policy. >> there is some activist working with the business return on investment. so that is what they do something about. what is the fastest growing energy job in america? solar panel installation with technology you know, the cost of importing solar panels is low. if you benchmark germany on the cost of the solar panel in the world with competitive prices what
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explains the delta? it is something called the soft cost the lack of automation to put solar panels on the approved. and if we had a ubiquitous same day process of the financial market and to finance them much more readily available matchmaking services they get those with the local laws dollars. if they do that that way it would reduce that hidden tax on the solar panel economy that already is the fastest growing energy job in america as you create more on the backs of the low-cost
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trade import. to address issues important to the world like climate change. and in of all places the mayor's office you can do the same day's solar permitted california but not your. if you do it there is work to be done but no return? with those organizing labor if we could apply these technologies to grow the market and not all of those there is a role of cart -- give it to create market opportunities. >> talking about removing
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>> what do you need to happen that is beyond your control for your business model to have a good chance to succeed? >> great question. is mostly about a lot of the things we're doing better very differentiated it and just to go back how does technology impact our business? if you're not a technology company in the next decade space the a company is a change in the world where everyone needs to adapt or move on. but there is so much we can
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a plo former astronauts testify for the subcommittee on space. to talk about the future of human spaceflight urging congress to provide more funding for future missions to mars and elsewhere. the subcommittee also years from space policies dollars in commercial space industry officials. and just shy of one hour 20 minutes. this is from february. [inaudible conversations]
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>> the hearing has come to order good afternoon. just over half a century ago president jfk and they down a marker in my hometown of houston and texas. but like those great pioneers that came before us to send a man to the moon. we embarked upon that endeavor as a nation to promise high cost of parts shipped in the enormous reward. refiners also is similar crossroad. the year 2015 is just as critical for national and commercial space programs as
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was half a century ago. future exploration promises high rewards. new resources frontiersman economic opportunities. i am honored to serve as chairman of the subcommittee. my first priority will help to refocus nasa energy encore priorities to explore space. we need to get back to the manned space exploration and the innovation integral to that. we need to ensure that united states remains a leader in the 21st century. sos and orion will be
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critical to medium and long-term availability to explore space. whether the moon, mars or beyond. at the same time i remain deeply concerned about the current inability to reach lower workers'. we are entirely dependent on the so you system from russia that is unacceptable and also the perspective of national security. every see the american astronaut occupies on the rushes to use costs $70 million. it is imperative that america has the capability to get to the international space station without the assistance of the russians. america is to have the capability to launch a rescue mission to the space station should that prove
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necessary. sa and without being dependent on the russians. they should have the capacity to launch critical satellites without requiring the 180 engines the crew program is critical to restore this capability. i am encouraged by the progress with regard to commercial cargo and commercial crew. but we need a continued focus on accomplishing the stated objectives with maximum efficiency. district is the commercial companies innovating as chairman and will be the enthusiastic advocate of competition in the enabling of the private sector to compete and innovate. in 201381 launches were
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conducted worldwide. 23 were commercial. revenues were estimated to be more than 1.9% billion dollars. it accounts for six of the launches. there is more than it can be done to create long-term predictability from the commercial space industry so launch activity will continue to grow. whole there is no limit to human imagination and. everyone of us every little boy or girl has looked up to the night sky and wondered what of -- what lies out there. there is a vision behind the space exploration. america has led the way is
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space the exploration and we need to reclaim that leadership. with that i recognize my friend from the full committee. >> thank you. mr. chairman blossoms are breaking out all over washington because what you just centcom you and i completely agree. [laughter] as a matter of fact i offered the amendment to start it is part of the defense authorization bill to start the process for to reauthorize $100 million senator mccain was a co-sponsor of that to develop an alternative to
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the rd-180. we should not rely on the russians we have been the past in the two 1/2 years we were down after the loss of the space shuttle columbia columbia, that was the only way to get up to the space station. they were a reliable partner then. but looks that we cannot predict what vladimir putin will do. this was part of the speeches i was making a decade ago as we try to get
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this off the ground. and i certainly agree with you and i am heartened that you can now was such a strong statement on the commercial crew because this will be a way that we can get americans on american rockets quicker back into space since the launch system and the spacecraft tori and -- orion even though we already tested orion on the first test flight. i am delighted. as you know, you and i have talked about this and tell me you're blue in the face. this subcommittee has always not bipartisan but non-partisan. the subject of the national
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space program is a non-partisan issue. so i am looking forward to cooperating as we tried last year. it did not have been we have to get the authorization act out of here. just for the remaining six months of this fiscal year then look to the fiscal years behind. so i can assert my comments i prepared in the record and i will end by saying thank you. >> thank you senator nelson for the kind comments i hope they're not used against you in your next campaign. >> i was going to say the same thing to you. [laughter] yours is more immediate.
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>> of life to think the three distinguished witnesses it is a wonderful way to begin the new congress and the jurisdiction to focus on the overarching goal is that nasa should focus on and i cannot think of a more respected panel in the three witnesses who are with us today. first colonel cunningham and apollo seven pilot. then we have puzzled informer astronaut and apollo 11 astronaut. and former nasa astronauts and mission specialist for the space shuttle program. we think each of you for taking time from your busy
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schedules to join us. [inaudible] thank you. thought so where the space program is slipping and what they're doing to maintain space exploration. while this is my personal opinion is shared by my contemporaries. but humans have always been willing to open for new frontiers. petraeus three things resources and technology and the will to do it. in 1961 when president kennedy made his commitment not a single american was yet in orbit. the success is due to the collective efforts of 400,000 members of our team
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with a whole world watching we accepted the challenge and took the risk and the and now 45 years later the next frontier mars seems decades out of reach because we do not have a national commitment. the pilot program made preeminence in space the technically advanced nation it led to the space shuttle and the international space station and the hubble space telescope. it infiltrated virtually all areas of industry. weld masses budget date it has been below 1% for the past 40 years. weld it has accomplished many things we have not
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challenged the next frontier the manned exploration of mars. would be possible if the government initiate them provides funding for such a program? over the years it's been subjected to more political pressure is growing increasingly political leaving them much less likely to express their opinions freely and the example is there still unable to lower the air overhead cost congress and local politicians always got to save the one in their district. landing a man on mars would drive nasa budget the schedule would be controlled by the rate it is funded. but like many other
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deficiencies that have devolved over time. but to be assembled in the earth's orbit that would require heavy lift rockets and the orion crew capsule. it may be necessary to assemble interplanetary spacecraft. these are all costly but david we essential to move humans out of earth's orbit. to have international partners nasa should take a strong leadership role as they did in the apollo program and not just do one more in the international effort whole fleet would encompass less politics to be better structure than the iss but then to see that where placed in orbit we transferred between three
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and $5 million to help russia resurrect aerospace industry it increased our cost by $20 billion now we're totally dependent on russia to get a cruise man to and from the iss. the success of the space program has been dependent on private industry and they delivered. less entrepreneurial less efficient and more bureaucratic to inspire more commercial space companies. to be subsidized nasa has less control over development operations in the results as the past. some people suggest private space company should collaborate beyond earth's orbit which means sharing the cost for pro well commercial companies would get the technology the government is always expected to pay the cost of exploration funded by tax
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dollars of course, . spence -- space exploration was driven by profit and return on investment. it does not satisfy either criteria. government agencies are not profit driven they died and develop and manage technology. the return on investment is a private industry commercialization of the technology developed. since they moved much faster than agency's production will stir in the pipeline for lunch to mars. with limited funding nasa has initiated the asteroid redirect mission and today they justify is the first dozen mission to mars for anything it might do to help the mars mission could be more efficient with other projects. well we work on overcoming the problem of radiation exposure we should return to
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the moon to develop a crew facility for semi permanent living. they say send robots to mars because it is too dangerous but they should exploit both manned and unmanned missions we humans will always be more efficient because we can think and act in realtime. to things we should focus on is eliminating permanently any dependence on other countries launch capabilities and find some way for administrators to become less subject to changes in the administration every four years. the apollo program took eight years as $110 billion of today's dollars and the benefits to society have been priceless with a manned landing on mars will take twice as long or three times as much. that is a fraction of the annual federal budget
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deficits have been running and they do not have a return on investment purpose of the human desire to explore and settle the frontiers will be satisfied if not by americans and others human's somewhere will return to the moon i believe we have the resources and the technology but do we have the will to tackle the next frontier? mars. thank you. >> thank you colonel cunningham. >> senator nilson -- nelson nelson, and senator cruise in senator markey, to the committee i wish to thank you for the opportunity to speak with you about the future of human spaceflight enterprise it is truly an
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honor and i applaud you for raising this issue so early in this session. america must be the world's leader receive and space flight. there is no other policy area that clearly demonstrates american innovation and enterprise then human space flight. american leadership is more than simply getting one step ahead of for global competitors leadership is inspiring the world by consistently doing what no other nation is capable of doing. we demonstrated that for a brief time 45 years ago. ha if we wish to retain that leadership by believe the nation must commit to develop a permanent presence on mars and another mission
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to put flags and footprints on mars is not have sustained leadership and that only requires a small step for lunar a semblance for the other nations to catch up. i have the of plan with a compelling vision that would establish world leadership for the remainder of the century and initial landings on mars by 2038. and integrated plan that mixes together a return to the moon on commercial and international basis leveraging the asteroid and putting more senate carefully developed mitigated architecture to include the use of a robotic site color between mars and earth to revolutionize the economy and economics and safety.
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much analysis has been done in partnership with the commercial sector the international community and the academic community. this can all be done as a major budget buster. the architecture is driven by several technical principles which i believe are essential to achieve this goal that are what i call the unified space mission. current programs for commercializing transportation to the iss could expand to provide transport with rotations to the redundant stations on either side of the moon. the other cruise from the stations with distant
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control of the assembly and checkout of the structures and the life support systems for also injured rovers' will have rocket fuel resources and other resources. we also have a reliable test needed for mars. we should participate in the underdevelopment but avoid getting the human space flight budget captured by vendor gravity's and expensive consumption of funds. let's establish a lunar and infrastructure that is this service -- the surface to the landers and reduce the cost to sustain a presence on mars by deploying the outbound spaceships that orbit between earth and mars
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without requiring a great deal of propulsion for each successful mission only have to step - - cent of the astronauts they are reusable and the secular the vast majority would remain in the orbit of earth and mars. focus on people to mars tuesday. bringing everyone home after a relatively brief stay is a cost driver. i envision many of the people who go to mars remain and establish a permanent settlement we have and means to bring people back for certain contingencies but the cost to send the entire launch system to return everyone home one every
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mission can make the entire venture prohibitively expensive. most of the detail is in my written statement and have a complete version of this plan was the steady of my concept is conducted with the steady finished at the end of april. in closing i encourage you to think about the ability of free markets in space to reduce the cost and power of american ingenuity to solve the most difficult technical challenges. in my opinion there is no more convincing way to demonstrate american leadership for the remainder of this century than to commit to a permanent presence on mars. thank you for your time.
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we'll look forward to your leadership. >> thank you very much. dr.? >> members of the subcommittee, the thank you very much for having me here today. i have done cool stuff in my life and this is write-up there. want to describe the things i have learned as a master not that has been provided for the whole world and their 3a1 2.0 and then tell a story. the first benefit is how the human exploration program can benefit science and life on earth. there is a lot of examples but i am most familiar of the hubble space telescope both shuttle flights with
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hubbell has given us great discovery. i say so far because of the anniversary of the telescope in orbit is coming this spring and has lotus notes about the universe that has found blackpool's and inspired people to continue studying the universe in showing us what is out there but this would not have been possible without exploration ground control and astronauts to react to get the job done to provide these to those on the ground. so how which can affect science how benefits on earth. second international cooperation allows a new master not one restarting to work with the international partners to build a space station. no others have launched an and listening to the briefings i wondered how
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will we make this work with all the countries of europe and japan and the russians? russia -- u.s. would be a leader but how would revert to gather with different systems of measurement? i discovered when we all have a common goal it did not matter where country you were from wanted to build the space station and have a laboratory so with that we could achieve the iss orbiting above us right now so that is the second benefit. with the third is the inspiration for young people. i'm sitting here with my boyhood heroes i watched him walk on the moon and it changed my life and inspired me to become an astronaut. those who are my age and older will point to that episode that inspired us.
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as an astronaut and wonder what do we do now that would get the next generation of kids interested to study math and science to go to space? it was unclear and tell laelia was teaching in columbia this past year there are some smart kids up there. i found they are just as excited as me and my colleagues were years ago of the space program students have gone to work for nasa contractors but they want to do change the world to be entrepreneurial they see the space program as a way to be entrepreneurs to put the effort to help the economy through space and they see these people as role models.
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it is almost better not just nasa bet this entrepreneurial spirit where they think they could provide economic benefits for the world as well. the story come on my second space walk by had a chance to walk around we were no far as does but to see the curvature of the earth fed is really beautiful. the second space walk there wanted to see what it was like there is no way to describe how beautiful the planet is the first koch is if you were in heaven this is what you would see you could look down at our planet to see how beautiful it is. i was thinking about it and it wasn't enough. it is more beautiful than
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that this is what heaven must look like at that moment i felt i was looking at paradise it is a fragile and we need to take care of it. thank you. >> thank you very much for that part lamp provocative imagery. i appreciate each of you being here and your experts and we all agree that america should lead the world and in space exploration. we have for decades but i would like to start by asking the panel how good of a job are we doing today leading the world of space exploration and how could we do better? >> we're really leading the world -- not leading the world we have the facility
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and we have invested a lot in it and have gone to it and put it together then we changed the spacecraft to move to another program and that did not come together because of problems with the booster not being powerful enough so we had to go to another booster from a company that had not built it before. it was gaining weight it could not put itself and the lander into orbit so we had to make the leander bigger so the same rocket was used on various -- aries v so we continue to develop orion
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for in shelf the heavy lift vehicle that there is no point to continue though lander so the program fell apart. -- excuse me. >> tell us if that is a call from the space station. [laughter] >> colonel cunningham you talk about what is excessive political a station in the challenges that present i am curious if you could elaborate what steps could be taken to help nasa focus on its core mission. >> of politics from outside of nasa increasingly it will
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have a lot to do with control those projects but also in my opinion from that side it has affected the agency itself. people inside of nasa are not as willing to speak their mind to get things done. some of these programs has money spent have been canceled so what has happened is nasa has changed in my opinion are becoming much more risk averse agency over the years. for example, we all realized the hubble space telescope is the greatest we have ever had. we will have the use for
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least another five years but that would not have happened if we didn't have the last servicing mission that went up to service it originally would go up a couple of years earlier but was then canceled that -- by the administrator because it was too risky because they lost people on columbia. dismantle. with apollo we lost people on apollo one. people from 13 herself fortunate they are alive but you have to have the will to was to keep going. fortunately the administrator decided it was worth the risk than we had the last servicing mission we have the greatest telescope in history. i don't know how because society is moving to be more risk averse but we needed agency that understands paid
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the money and take chances to get out there to push the frontier. >> when it comes to priorities and nasa there is a post that had been discussed whether astrid retrieval, the moon, mars or beyond i would welcome the views of the witnesses on this panel as to what the top priorities of nasa should be which of those projects yield the greatest benefits what order should they be staged? and what should be the focus on the may and exploration? >> i cannot tell you what degree and i am not an expert of internal affairs but as i watch i find what nasa has been trying to do
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is they recognize the public at large looks for a demand to go to the next frontier which is now mars. so they also attempt to rationalize what ever they were working on as a step along that program. some of the things they proposed will have scientific value but help us with the program? i doubted there are other ways. you don't hear nasa talking returning to the moon. i used to be one of those that was not wild about stopping at the moon but then i began to realize we have to have a facility to keep people alive on mars it is cheaper to develop on the moon and another way. we need to get back on a
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program with the moon as a step only as a fits to go to the next frontier, mars. >> it is interesting moon and mars i left the office this past july we use to talk about this for years. where wriggling next? you can make energy for almost anyone but we have to go somewhere and i do think nasa does have a plan to take us away from lower orbit working with the companies that have been selected we have cargo since astronauts with a commercial perot think that is the plan that is taking the right steps. but the ability to leave for a bit is to all of those so
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which destination and do you pack? people change their mind in the same day. maybe we don't know where we should go but we know we need to go somewhere with the orion ready to ago we had the test in september was successful and a plan for another. has picked up a lot of my friends are still working their there spending money and building hardware to go. where that destination is to the moon or mars we will get clear on that. maybe we go all the way to mars may be propulsion can get us there quicker. maybe we go to the moon or the times if that is the closest to keep us in the budget but i think they're taking the right steps for a lower orbit mediation make
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that bill pressure vessels for the space station and they can get additional resources in south korea and india. so they can build the modules that will go to the moon based on our design. they need to be standard and we have uneven terrain and the gravity field so you pick one off of the lander and put it where you want it. another lander is over here appeared break this one up and bring it over. they won't buy now. you've got to level them. you've got to account for that. this is too much for the students at purdue. it will be done, but i'm going to another resource to help students in purdue in their study to do that. the habitat that will be based
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on what we want at mars will then be exercised at the moon peered before we do that, we'll use the island of hawaii to make sure that things all come together. we need an inflatable earth orbit l1 and l2 will develop a rigid and put it at those two places. those are what we construct things on and they are the ones that will be similar to what we are going to build and send to mars so at the time our cycling system deposits the first people on mars and the buildup will be complete. now what can we do with that inflatable orion 79 we consented to an astronomic and senate on a
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mission and the crew gets there in four months, two days before. 60 days at the asteroid with a scientist who knows about asteroid and robotics scientist. that is a crew in a robot at the same asteroid in place. that is that the inflatable appeared when we get to the rigid we can send orion with the rigid and around a flyby of venus. it takes a lot longer to do it at mars. when we come back we can exercise capture maneuvers that need to be done at mars. we will be doing these things and different people will be building and landing and we will be getting these habitats. the different habitats, nine. we will take three of them in condition met and we get it in its cycle and then we use landers for triple redundancy.
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all the lander has to do is get on a cycler from a cycle the supplies with everything in need it gets off and lands in the facilities are there to take care of. each pass we reused the same facilities. so we don't have to build them again and we can have an impound on train and then cycling emergence is. it is a plan built-in integrated evolving as we go along. >> thank you very much, gentlemen. senator nelson. mr. chairman, i want to defer to senator udall and i would say with our goal of going to mars go into an asteroid, back to the moon, if we are going to the moon, then show me the money. that is the question as we go forward on the budgets we are project team.
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i look into that a little later when i get to my question. >> thank you chairman cruz for calling this important hearing and drinking senator bill nelson thank you for allowing me to go forward first in questioning on this site continue match of the witnesses have you given an impressive testimony. thank you for your service today. scientific research in improving technology transfer and commercialization a smart investment. there's no doubt about it. it is vital to our nation's future and national defense and our economy. and my home state of new mexico, we know this. we support crucial missions including communication with the international space station, astronomers to are making new discoveries about black hole planet outside of our solar
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system. one of those astronomy operations is called the very large array which is in new mexico and does a lot of the work. researchers at labs and universities are working hard to keep america safe and create jobs through innovative technologies like advanced photonics. i look forward to working with chairman cruz and ranking senator nelson before this committee including america competes act commercial space launch act in nasa reauthorization. i also want to thank senator nelson as our previous chairman under his leadership and senate passed the bipartisan nasa authorization act of 2010. very few senators have an astronaut like senator nelson. he may be the most passionate advocate has ever served in the congress and i'm honored to to serve on this committee.
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dr. massimino -- i put to rest my opening statement in the record. the congress passed the last nasa authorization act in 2010 if they mention. the plot continues to guide nasa as the multimission agency and to quote that from the statue, balanced and robust set of core commissions and science aeronautics and human spaceflight and acceleration. could you share your thoughts on the damages of the multimission agency which encompasses not just human spaceflight but also initiatives such as space-based operations of the earth. >> you know in my time is a master at their a lot of things going on in my country. we have military situations.
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we had economic effects. a lot of things have been. i got a sense as a government agent if we had resources that could help him whatever that meant to whatever our country made it it was important to try to contribute what we could. you mentioned earth observations, for example. on the international space station, it was a great project. it's amazing the thing is that they are. we can do a lot of basic research up there. in addition to that, we are able to have this about our planet where we take amazing photos. the students in my class were doing a project or the semester with a master on assisted to help them take photos. they can show us natural disasters occur. changes in the planet, whether it be irrigation problems or volcanoes erupting or whatever it may be that can help our country, get our planet.
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it might be a simple example but we are using resources to help other rich season proved life and increase understanding. if there's a way nasa can contribute to that and i am not a nasa guy anymore, but when i was, if there's anything i can do to contribute that would help our country or the world that we owed it to do that. that may not be our primary focus. we can make a contribution in those areas as well. >> just a quick question because we only have a few seconds left. it seems to me a great potential to develop the s.t.e.m. fields. could you talk about that quite >> absolutely. in my more recent experience as a university professor that the kids need something to be
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excited about. i am not as smart as does was at m.i.t. i struggled. it was tough. i needed inspiration to hang out and get through. it's not easy stuff. if you have a goal that says i can finish the thought maybe i can make a contribution to whatever technology they are interested in, that the motivation they need. i would throw the challenge out there if you find anything else that could inspire kids, young people to study those fields other than the space program, i haven't found it. it encompasses so many different areas. it excites them. something they think is cool. it's the future making a contribution to the planet. they just love it. when you have the opportunity to be entrepreneurs, we are on to something. i can't think of anything that would excite the more. in new york city it does not go nasa center.
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not so much of a presence in other parts of the country. there is still great interest to there. >> i have seen that with astronauts that travel with the young people in terms of all the stem fields. sorry to excuse myself but senator kerry is in foreign relations. i hope we ask additional questions, but thank you senator nelson and senator cruz. the mac thank you very much. senator gardner. i will be following my colleague from new mexico after the question and dialogue here. i don't think there's anything just said, mr. massimino that captures the human education like exploration. 28 years ago i wrote a letter i would've been nine years old. i wrote a letter to nasa. took a picture of it because it's not an e-mail. this is the first -- this is
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response back from nasa. they wrote back in my letter to them. thank you for your letter in your interest in line to become an astronaut. we are happy to give people the world show interest in our space program. we've received hundreds of letters similar to yours. today there is deep enough and i doubt if they'll may receive 100. probably thousand. this talks about the need to go into mathematics engineering, medicine and importance of our space program. they also is sent a photograph of the crew. it was sally ride, for so many into space on the program and the first woman to space from the united states. that was 28 years ago, more than that. 201128 years since i wrote the letter to nasa.
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i stood with my colleagues in the house of representatives as we watched the closing of the chapter of the space shuttle program. i was nine years old writing about how to become an astronaut. 28 years later the house of representatives with my colleagues around the country watching the program that made me so interested wanting to achieve more. we followed that phrase in american history and explored and fought and that is who we are. i am so concerned about the testimony today that we are capturing the imagination like we once were. we are not driving no innovation. we are driving new innovations but how do we instill the notion of exploration and make it a reality. it goes to the heart of state and the orion program. we did the test launch december 5th 2014.
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we did it top the heavy rocket and tested this and now it doesn't look like we planned to carry astronauts until 2021. can this country afford to wait? can we wait that long? how do we capture the imagination that drives so many of us to imagine to aspire to space. so what is it we need to do to really drive this nation, this idea, this value no-space. it is something we've got to do ourselves. >> i think it would help to refocus back on what they did to provide the inspiration. i was listening here about the stem education. i am a strong believer in that. that is what my education was. probably what everybody's education was at this table.
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we work with the astronaut scholarship foundation and now we're up to 30 or 32 awards every year for this kind of education. if we look at the organization nasa is also giving many scholarships now. nasa is a space agency. if they are giving scholarships, the funds could be deferred someplace they focus on that. nasa needs to spend their time and focus on those things that inspire people. expiration is that i happen to believe the long-term. but they need to spend their money on this that inspire others to make their scholarships that derive from other places. i work with scholarships all the time. i believe in them. but i think the agency, just one
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more thing -- but just gas, maybe a couple dozen people working, just focusing on that as opposed to what they did before and letting the inspiration drive those things. another alternative i am raising about it. >> i would like to tell a little story about the months before i left nasa in 1970. i was asked to go down to another center where the next program to follow apollo was being looked at. there were hundreds of errors-based engineers. let me describe what the next system was. this was 1970. we may have flown apollo 12 and maybe start team. it is two states fully reusable.
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an orbiter with wings and wheels and a booster with wings and wheels and it carried the crew. it didn't carry cargo. you are cargo, but the park on top of that. so i went down there to look at the assembly of people. they had seven teams. contract or for a booster and the orbiter. and some of them doubled up of course and they built models. my job was to look at the upper stage, the orbiter in to see what the people could see. i happen to happened to glance down and i saw windows in the booster. i can explain that now. but i asked the guy what are these windows? when they go up in a normal mission we've got a cockpit with two people in a booster. i said you what?
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before they started their study we asked them to do a short study. manned versus unmanned booster. if you are one of the seven teams and you know what the client wants and if you give them what he wants, you will make these money. all of the report said you are bright. we will put a cockpit is to win the booster. totally unnecessary. by the time i started getting implemented george gilder is said to another person, i wonder if we should've put a a cockpit in the booster. it was canceled. we had to rush into the shuttle. we would love to have a program like that now, that it was because jealousies of individuals and wanting to do things and the companies wanting to take a big delay cap more money and bring it back to where
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states are doing things. that was inexcusable to me and there's other examples like that. we've got three different spacecraft to come back. commercial spacecraft and one advanced one looked at by the russians, looked at by the air force and it brings things back. what do we finance? to two capsules with not really new technology and we don't finance the one that can land on a runway. i think we are making not so good choices many times. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. senator nelson. >> first of all i want to welcome our guests, dear personal friend and thank you for what you have done for this country. each of you in your own
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contribution as we have built this amazing game that we are discussing today our american space program. the goal is to go to mars. the goal is to get nasa beyond low earth orbit. and the question is over the course of these years as we target the decade of the 2030s with the budget we are going to have how do we do a? how do we develop technologies techniques, systems, life support systems, propulsion systems that would get us to a foreign body such as mars with a crew and return them safely. so we may want to go back to the
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moon as they develop this. as i said earlier, show me the money. doc or massimino, i want to ask you to comment on the plans to capture an asteroid, breaking into a stable lunar orbit and send a crew up there to land on. that is part of the steps as we prepare all of those things i just mentioned eventually to go to mars in the decade of the 2030s. >> thank you. we need to remember one thing overall. go into space is hard. i think we need to remember there's only been one country that puts people in out of earth orbit and that is us. we did it a long time ago when we send us and his colleagues
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that they are. the united states is the only one that's been able to figure that out. it's even harder to go beyond low earth orbit to places like the moon or mars. if we decide we take an incremental approach, which would he be asteroid mission there is definitely a lot learned fair. we can test the big rocket that can take us places belong low earth orbit. we can test life support. space is a very hazardous place. there's a lot of radiation and it gets worse further from the planet. the radiation on hubble was higher than what the men and women get on space stations. go into the moon is even worse. beyond that it's even worse. we are taking the steps of the research on the space station. how do we keep them healthy? we keep people healthy enough to withstand a journey to mars and
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be able to work and then come home. this is tough stuff. we may or may not be able to do that in one swing. and maybe too much to do it in one sitting but we need to start taking those first steps. first is get the launch vehicle going like we have and the other ones planned. these are tough things to do and i don't know if more budget would make a quicker. maybe it would. maybe it wouldn't. maybe it would give you a better chance of getting here. these are the things to do. going with the asteroid mission is the right thing to do certainly not a lot we can learn from it. understanding how to work the launch system and it is a destination. you are not going to land and have to blastoff like the moon or mars, but it is a place you can go to and we can certainly learn a lot from it.
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is it necessary quakes that might be because of my meet the incremental step before the big leap. right now the important thing is to be consistent and pulled the rug out from where we are. there might be a penalty there as well. a couple programs in my career as an astronaut. i had dinner with two of my friends last night. now for astronauts in washington. we talked about all the stuff that was canceled, all the stuff we were trained on him to make a big huge direction change isn't always the best thing. >> well, you were there in the astronaut office on the cost donation program is can't vote. it was way behind and way over budget. so that's what you're talking about. what you sacrifice if you make a
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major change in the human spaceflight program. >> that was a big one. but there are other wants to on the space shuttle. they started doing the wiring. spent a lot of time designing to grade that got cut. the story was that with cost almost as much to pull it out us finish the job. the rescue spacecraft from the space station that we were developing. they dropped them out of airplanes, a lot of cockpit design. these projects were cut. there is a penalty to pulling everything back. if we go to the asteroid or the moon or mars, it is important to keep the momentum going of getting the spaceship ready in the rocky ready, keeping options open until you are sure which one to go to.
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maybe we can go to mars but may be the asteroid mission is a gateway to test our system and get the knowledge because that is a huge leap. it's a really long journey and not even compare to the moon at the long way. that is a heck of a lot further. we make sure we get it right when you do that. if the asteroid mission will help us get to their, that is great. >> can i add a thought having to do with the budget. it's always expensive for what they talk about trying to do. i mentioned for 40 years the nasa budget is less than 1% of the federal budget. the last 15 years has been driving down 0.4% of the budget. unless the country which is congress here decides to put more money in the comment this is just talk we are going
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through here. the budget has got to go out for an asset. another reason i feel strongly nasa has to be operating more efficiently and not doing the things which would be marginal. you've got to focus on what has to be done. nasa's budget is way too low to do the things we talk about doing this afternoon. >> absolutely. i would like to point out the study at purdue at the end of april. i've assembled 25 other academic institutions that deal with exploration. academic institutions are supposed to be unbiased. they are supposed to teach the general background. if we come up with a number of questions. some of them are yes no maybe. how do we get the public behind what it is we're trying to do a
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i would give them my assumptions what is the strategy to get the public behind us and what kind of strategy do we need to find something in 2040? to be increased to make up for things and then do we have a ramp up. not just cost of living, but expenditures are going to be greater. they are in the apollo program. another question do we have a relationship with china? it is significant if we are going to deal with leadership. i want to get into a lot of that, but if we really do or are in between we shouldn't do things differently at noon. we still should don't think they're so they they can build somewhere else. but we don't have to land there. china needs the things we can
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build. we have to exert leadership by working with them in low earth orbit. 75 was pretty contentious in the cold war. much worse than relations with china today. why did we refuse them to come to our space station quite that doesn't make any sense to me. we should be doing that sort of thing together, building on sharing what we are doing. they've got a lot of things to do with the moon and we can help them with permanent because it helps us with our permanent that mars. if i asked them about asteroid, you can fly away. you can can't hold or do something smart in between. if you understand what that is in between by sending a robot there then on board the crew you've gotten asteroid
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scientists and they can stay there 60 days. the combined mission is better then a robot were better than a crude mission. don't these people talk to themselves and washington quite went away to safety combined mission it's better than you can do for asteroid is like the national research is that we should do. but maybe that's not essential. i happen to think it is where you can fly o'brien with a long-duration support system. that is what we do when we go to our one or else. taken orion up there and there'll be a system that states for much longer. we have rotated commercial crews up and down. not just the space station, or is the vicinity of the man. we don't have to put all the money in building those habitats
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because the foreigners are going to want them and we are going to want them there and we want them that mars. the foreigners have to land. we are going to develop a sophisticated landing system and will be landing so many people that mars that we can take them along the first landing. take us along as visitors on your landings. let's not go broke by doing things back at the moon. but that's astutely learn to do things they are that do make sense. i think if you ask industry ordered u.s. government, you will get a biased answer. if you ask academia i'm looking forward to this poll on significant questions coming back from different situations. >> thank you very much. one additional question, which is each of the three of you are learned scientist and national
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heroes. if i have understood your testimony here today correctly each of you has discussed as a major object of a grand goal for nasa going to mars. i would ask each of you to take a moment to address the american people and in your judgment explain the benefits to america and to the world of going to mars and what would be accomplished to require the object is. >> well, i would start by saying the technology required to get us to mars, such things as radiation for finding new velocities and the like to do that. that will create the spinoff.
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for 40 years solving the problems to go to the moon. some of those target before, but some of it was totally mx acted. you didn't know what is going to come up, but you solved the problem and now it is almost like a cancer in all areas of our industry and we are benefiting from it. the most important thing that has to be done is they have to be willing to pay them money. i am not optimistic about is putting the funds we ought to because we are spending money and the government for all kinds of things for which there is no return for all kinds of things that do not really inspire people. i happen to believe it's a good use of money. rarely does a time long in the advancement of humankind on this planet earth tweaking the potential of really demonstrating to ourselves and
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to the rest of the people the full list of the challenges. we can put together what is necessary to send people to mars in an efficient way to make them do it by using some things are not getting bogged down with investment that are involved in landing humans, and then storing them. we donate to do that anymore. we can observe how other people take care of them. where we want to do that is that mars and we need to invest for things to get to mars. if we invest in an asset stage to go along with the people going there, it is going to cost more money. go wayne manor interferes with the lander.
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building that stage and the return capability is taking longer to do that in time. the cost per person on the surface of mars is the last that they stay there. if we start bringing people back. the biggest thing to me is all of this comes along on earth that humanity being able to advance into all the wonders you. it will cost billions and billions of dollars and we will select human beings to do that and we will train them and we will send them there. i have gone and come back from the place. let me ask you what do you think you're going to do with those people that go there and bring them back to continue to pay up the investment of there being the first pioneers, the building up of a growing
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settlement. they can do far more by keeping mars occupied, helping the new people that come in. you bring them back and they visit different places. if they broadcast from mars you can reach everybody in the world because they are listening in and give them the stories of what you've been doing right there while you're there. there's no doubt that the value we've invested from whenever the country is that we put them there on mars. that is where they need to stay and 92 no one understand understand that this is their opportunity to serve humanity. the mac thank you, sir. benefits for american people what can we imagine if we would do this grand exploration.
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eventually have to get off on this planet for our survival. learn what is out there is great and will help our understanding of who we are in the universe but another place where we can live another place we could survive would be a good thing for us to have. mars might be that place. if we decide to go there, it gives us another option. if we do this, can you imagine what would be needed, what would be developed to get us there. if you look at what we developed the apollo program in the shuttle program and the benefits not just for the space program, but other industries which are madness. now we'll go all the way to mars. imagine what would come out of that. we'll have some type of international flavor. the united case to be the
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leaders. we would also do with some of our friends. a great thing for international cooperation with other countries are providing the benefit for us. the inspiration not just because it's a nice thing to do but that is where future is. we take care of our planet and build our economy. they may not going to become master not. hopefully they help more people make the option and keep them interested in the space program. i think exploration, something like you describe would inspire them to stay in school and get their education and find something along the way they like better than space. maybe better for us to go into medicine study what they can do in the classroom other than going to space. i certainly think it will keep their interest.
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that is kind of intangible benefit we would get as well. i really see it as an investment in our future inspiring young kid and to help our country or economy for many years to come. >> thank you very much. senator nelson. i want to thank each of you. this has been a panel. we'll conclude this and move on to the second panel will start momentarily. thank you very much. [inaudible conversations]
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wind incentives. i think there's a lot of things that we are doing that are very differentiated. to go back to the question you asked before, how does type knowledge he impact our business is for the industry. i am of the police if you're not a technology company, then you won't be a company theme this is an unprecedented change in the world for everyone either needs to adapt or just move on. there is so much that we can do. for example, amazon and google know when a woman is pregnant almost immediately based on what she is searching for. the health insurance company doesn't know until the claim is paid three months after birth.
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>> a discussion on the justice department on the justice department's government civil asset forfeiture. from today's tremolite, this is about 40 minutes. >> one now we introduced you to a former deputy chief of the asset forfeiture office of the justice department. i apologize for butchering your title. what exactly does all of that mean to you at the justice department? >> guest: i was supervising there for a time. i was just starting. i was at the justice department and it was very different than it is today. some of the seeds for today's problems were planted at the end. talk about forfeiture in the legal end what are we talking?
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>> guest: there are two kinds. most of the debate has been sent in around civil forfeiture. there is another type of criminal forfeiture. that isn't as controversial, but i keep telling people there are at least as many problems with criminal forfeiture as a civil forfeiture. civil forfeiture involves a very strange but long-established practice of bringing a suit against property. not against the person but against an object like a car or a car or airplane or a cow. it is considered guilty, believe it or not because it was used in a crime or it is the proceeds of a crime as the prophets derived from the crime. it has kind of a very interesting and ancient sordid
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history in america and in europe and great britain, which i don't know if we have time to go into. they better not in the middle ages they used to have trials of animals that have done harm to people. for example, during the plague in europe they put rats and insects on trial to sort every story the community by finding these creatures guilty of harming none and they actually appointed lawyers for the animals. >> host: mr. smith, bring it up to date and give us a current case example of civil forfeiture and how it effects than what effect you and i? >> guest: what is causing so much controversy are highway
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seizures by state and local police of cash currency that people take with them when they travel on the highway and many many of the seizures have been very abusive early. they amount to legalize highway robbery of the motorist just to raise money for the law enforcement agency because under most state laws and under federal law to some extent the agency that seizes the property including all the cash gets to keep most of that are sometimes all of it so they can self fund their police department or sheriff's department or seizures and that is the root of most of the current problems and it began in 1984 when i was still with the justice department. they enact a new law which allowed the money to be used for
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law-enforcement purposes. >> host: are you saying people should not travel or are not allowed to travel with large amount of cash. any amount of cash they want. >> guest: and the amount of cash they want. the problem is the police act on the assumption that anyone who travels with what they considered to be a large amount of cash and that could be a few thousand dollars is a drug trafficker. that is the basis on which they have been seizing a lot of people's money. >> host: legally they can seize the money without proof >> guest: they have to have proof. there is a myth that we live in a rule of law society. you won't hear this often on television but the fact is there are large stretches were the only law is the sheriff and his local friendly judge and
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basically they are a law to themselves so they can get away with basically dealing people's money and getting it to the shares department. close quote there was a recent editorial in "usa today," police paid bounty hunter. there was a gentleman named tom live. are you familiar with this case? >> guest: very familiar. he was my client. can you explain what have been quiet >> guest: yes, he did not speak any english. he was a restauranteur in the deep south and in georgia and he wanted to buy a second chinese restaurant in louisiana and he made arrangements with the old lady who owned the second restaurant to come to louisiana and pay for the restaurant and
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cash, which is not uncommon among asian-americans to make fairly large transactions in cash and there are many other groups in america hispanics who also tend to use cache frequently. so he brought with him $75,000 to buy the restaurant and he was stopped for going slightly above the speed limit on i-10 on his way over. post a legitimate stop? >> guest: apparently. we don't have anything to dispute the stopping. the officer asked permission to search his car and he gave permission. he probably didn't even understand what the officer was singing, but we were told by the police that he gave permission. the officer quickly found $75,000, not hidden but in a
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briefcase. it wasn't concealed in any way and there's nothing wrong with concealing a large amount of cash anyhow. it wasn't concealed. the officer took the money. he wasn't able to question the man because he can't speak english and the officer couldn't speak chinese. so he just took the money. >> host: did he ever ask? >> guest: these people are almost never arrested because there's no basis, but also no base to seize the money. they are not interested in arresting them. they really interested in the money which goes directly to the sheriff's department fund or the state troopers budget. and here is the part that really bugs me. the state law enforcement agency then turned the money over to
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the fads to customs and border control to federalize the case because until very recently they were running a program called equitable sharing for the states and local cops, where they would take the seized money from them, run it through the federal forfeiture of milk and returned 80% of the money back to the local state or local law enforcement agency that sent them the money. the feds are not supposed to take these bad cases, a legal seizures. they are supposed to investigate themselves and determine whether there is probable cause to believe that property is drug money. in reality, they were not doing what they were supposed to be doing. they were taken almost every bad case that was brought to them.
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so they took this case and they were going to forfeit the money. this chinese gentleman went to a chinese woman warrior, the only one in mobile, alabama, the only chinese lawyer and she had just opened her practice and she could speak chinese and she was very diligent but she had no experience whatsoever with forfeiture, so instead of contesting the forfeiture, which is what she should have done she filed a petition for remission of the forfeiture which is an administrative request to pardon her client and give him back his money and she diligently explained what had happened. she sent customs a copy of an
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affidavit from the old chinese lady who was selling them. but she swore he was on his way to buy her restaurant which is pretty good proof this was a legitimate transaction and of course she had evidence that she owned a chinese restaurant already. he was an upstanding law-abiding person. guess what. customs denied her petition with no explanation and this is entirely typical of what happens because the whole remission process has become a joke. it is held out as a remedy but in fact it is in a remedy of basic customs or dea were they are routinely denied. that would've been the end of the case and he would've lost his money if any other agency had been involved because they don't give you a second chance to file a claim and contest the
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forfeiture once the repetition for emission is denied. custom is the agency that does give you a second chance and so we were able we filed a claim to contest the forfeiture. and lo and behold they had to return the money because the u.s. attorney's office would not take the case. that is what happens with so many bad teachers. if anyone files a claim and says i want my day in court, the u.s. attorney's office would give them back their money because they know there is no case there. unfortunately, only 20% of the people that are matched by the actually file a claim and say they want to contest a forfeiture. you need a lawyer basically to do that and most people don't want to spend the money or can't afford a lawyer or if they have
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the money, they can't find a lawyer who does this sort of case because there's also 10 or 12 to handle these peculiar civil forfeiture cases. but they know enough about them. >> host: so did he get his money back? >> guest: he did. he got every penny back. but only because he was lucky. the total process took about eight months. and he lost the opportunity to purchase the restaurant because the woman had her he sold to somebody else. >> host: what are the changes -- here is the headline from the "washington post." new-line it's on civil asset forfeiture is. what happened this week, went to the attorney general do? >> guest: this week the attorney general announced he
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was in a new prosecution policy with respect to one kind of forfeiture case based on structuring and most people don't know what structuring it is. it is a federal crime. what it means is breaking down currency amount of more than $10,000 smaller deposits or withdraws from the bank. if you have a small business with $15,000 in cash received, he is running a cash intensive business and instead of bringing the $15,000 to the bank to deposit, he decides i am only going to deposit $5000 at a time for a variety of reasons. perhaps he is afraid to take that much money to the bank or
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because he doesn't want the bank to have to go through the trouble of filling out a report that the bank is required to file if $10000 is deposited. frequently the tellers tell the customer, please keep it under 10000 because we are busy and we don't want to have to take time, five minutes to fill out the form. so that is structuring. that is a federal felony. most people have no idea that is a crime. >> host: by making 38-dollar -- >> guest: right. that is a felony. if you do it knowing for the purpose of preventing the bank from filing the report because a lot of people do you know from their experience a few deposit more than $10000 the bank must filed this report. but unfortunately, they don't know it is against the law to
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break down your deposit in that manner. .. discourages telling clients that this is a crime. you won't see any signs in any bank saying that structuring is this, don't do this. it's sort of like a speech at. they are hiding the fact that this is a criminal offense from the depositors at the bank so that they can trap more innocent people into committing a crime which they don't know is a crime. it's truly amazing. there are thousands of these structuring cases around the country. there's there is a special task force that does nothing but structure cases in every one of the 94 federal district.
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and this brilliant idea was trained up a few years ago by the justice department basically has a way to raise money for state and local police departments, which participate in these task forces. and the people, i have represented 54 these people in structuring cases and there is probably more than anybody else has done because it started in my district, and they eastern district of alexandria was an excellent program. so i got a lot of the cases. finally frankly i am taking some credit here because even though there were thousands of these cases being brought, nobody at a high
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