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♪ ♪ booktv's web site, booktv.org. >> host: tavis smiley, you list jesus christ and paul robison, two of your influences. >> guest: yeah. that's quite a pair, isn't it? [laughter] i was raised in a church as i mentioned earlier pentacostal church, and i've said for all of my life that i call them the three fs, the things that mean the most to me, faith family and friends in that order. i wrote a book called "keeping the faith," i close my show on pbs by saying thanks for watching i'm tavis smiley, keep the faith. i'm always trying to remind people that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. that's what faith and hope really are, the evidence of

things hoped for -- the hope of things, but even when you don't have the evidence to see how things are going to work out it's always possible. i make a distinction all the time, and here's why i say "keep the faith" all the time i make a distinction between optimism and hope. optimism suggests there's a particular set of facts circumstances or conditions, optimism suggests there's something you can see feel or touch that gives you reason to believe things are going to get better, and that's not where i live most of the time. hope, on the other hand, says even when you can't see the next step in the dark stair welshing you take that step -- well, you take that step believing that it's going to be there. you can, in fact, build a whole life on hope. so hope and faith are terribly important to me. that comes from my abiding faith, and i thank my mother and father for introducing me to that. every one of us who happens to be a believer, i didn't come here to prosthelytize, but every one of us has to have something to believe in.

and for me personally there are just moments in my life when -- but i don't have all the answers, and i can't see my way through and don't know how it's going to work out. and for me my abiding faith is terribly important. so paul robeson, who you mentioned a moment ago, we talked about that earlier with one of the callers, paul robeson was a truth teller and never shied away from speaking the truth. and they did everything they could to destroy paul robeson. i mean, literally. the story of paul robeson is one that just sends shivers down my spine every time i consider it. and i've been fortunate over the course of my life to be friends with two very important people very close to me. i have lunch with them fairly regularly because he lives in l.a. and the other i never go to new york he doesn't come to l.a. without us getting together. and the two of them are good can friends, and both of them are from the islands, sydney poitier -- studyny poitier and

harry belafonte. i only raise that not to drop these name but i only raise it because you cannot talk to sidney poitier for five minutes without him raising his teacher paul robeson. and you cannot talk to harry belafonte for, like, two and a half minutes without belafonte raising the name of paul robeson. so aside from the history books and all all the stuff i've read or seen about paul robeson i feel like for at least 25 years sitting at poitier and belafonte's feet, i've come to here firsthand and know so much about this man paul robeson courtesy of poitier and belafonte. >> host: you mentioned earlier, mr. smiley, that you attend a black church. >> guest: uh-huh. >> host: what does that mean, a black church, and do you care to tell which one? >> guest: yeah. i grew up in a little church in indiana called new bethel tabernacle a little small church.

and i loved growing up in a little, small church. couple hundred people, on a good sunday. but i loved growing up in a small church that was very familial. in l.a. for most of my life in l.a. have gone to a much larger church, the city of refuge. my former minister passed away, and when the new minister came in we moved to a new facility kind of changed the name to city of refuge, but that's where i spent most of my youth. i've only been to two churches, one in indiana one in california. i don't do a lot of moving around pretty stable guy. they're both pentacostal tradition. and again, as i've grown older, there are things even in my own teaching that i have issue with from time to time. i sometimes feel for catholics who, you know are always wrestling with church doctrine and this and that and the other. i don't have those kinds of consternations, but i you know i have had the experience of growing older and coming out of a very strict church environment

like, you know if i were still true to the church i grew up in, i couldn't go to the movies or to a ball game. i think some of those things takes this sufficient a little -- this stuff a little too far, and i think these are manmade rules and not necessarily god's rules for our live. so my faith is still always has been and always will be the most important thing in my entire life. >> host: your book "keeping the faith," you open by saying this is a book about black love. >> guest: yeah. i wrote that book specifically because we don't hear just you saying that phrase hit me. how often do we hear the phrase "black love"? say that again on c-span. "black love." black love. we hear about black-on-black crime, we hear about the black-on-black stats for the achievement gap. we hear about black this and black that. but how often do you hear -- black president. but even when you talk about the black president we don't ever

get to a conversation about the black love that's exhibited this that family with michelle and sasha and measuring ali -- malia. i live again as i said earlier in los angeles. when's the last time you saw a movie about black love? there's a movie that was out this year "beyond the lights" same sister who did the movie "love and basketball" some years ago. wonderful film about the power and the beauty of black love. and it couldn't really get off the ground. so there's something about the nation, about our psyche, about our expectation that doesn't allow us to revel in black love. and so i wanted to do a book about the power of black love. so this book "keeping the faith" is about the love that african-americans specifically have been the beneficiaries of that got them through all kinds of difficult situations and got them out of rock in hard places and got them through all kinds

of test and trials and tribulations. the whole book is about the power of love to pull you through any situation that you go through. >> host: let's go back to calls. david is in memphis. david, this is "in depth" on booktv, and you're talking with tavis smiley. >> caller: great. mr. smiley, i want you to know that you and brother cornel west are a great light on the hill and you must continue to use your platform to educate the world. i love you. >> guest: thank you. >> caller: for what you have done. you're not afraid to tell the truth, and that's -- this is what we're supposed to do. so my office is going to call you. i love you brother. >> guest: thank you, i appreciate it. >> caller: i've got the word with you. god bless you. >> guest: thank you, thank you. see, that's black love. [laughter] every mow and then you can get -- every now and then you can get some of that.

it's nice to get a little love on c-span every night. >> host: is in harrisburg or, pennsylvania. hi lance. >> caller: hello. >> guest: hey, lance. >> caller: hello? >> guest: hello. >> caller: hey, thank you guys for taking my call. mr. smiley, i just want to tell you i appreciate definitely appreciate the work that you do. >> guest: thank you. >> caller: don't always necessarily agree concern. >> guest: that's okay. >> caller: -- but definitely appreciate your approach and everything. i'm a 48-year-old african-american male. i own a barbershop, and my clientele is probably 40% white, 40% black and another 20% other. and lately here with the controversies going on with the police in the news and everything, we've been having some really great conversations. and i just wanted maybe some suggestions for you on how to approach and facilitate the conversation without looking like the angry black male and driving my clientele away and losing money.

>> guest: yeah. first of all -- >> host: lance, before mr. smiley answers, do you get different points of view from your white clientele and your black clientele? is it pretty consistent? >> guest: yes. yeah, it is. people meet in here that wouldn't normally talk or meet because you have a half hour, 45 minutes to an hour that normally they wouldn't meet and engage one another on the street or wherever else. i have a platform that i'm able to do that and i want to be even-handed and not too, you know, like i said seem to come off angry although i'm very passionate about it. >> guest: first of all, i celebrate the barbershop, i just want to say first of all. i love the barbershop. i'm fortunate often times the barber will come to me, i love and make it a point as regularly as i can to go into the barbershop because there ain't in place in america like the black barbershop, the conversations, the relationships. and i'm just struck by you saying your shop is 40% black 40% white. that's a beautiful thing. barbershops are where these kinds of conversations can be

fruitful. so i'm just excited to know that you've got a shop that's that sort of integrated and you can have these kinds of cross-cultural conversations. i think that's a beautiful thing. so much of what's wrong with our country is we're so often engaged in monologue that we don't ever have enough dialogue. too much monologue in america not enough dialogue so i'm glad you are a place that can facilitate that kind of dialogue. to your question specifically lance, about what i would suggest, and i say this with all humility, i think the ultimate question here, the ultimate issue that we have to get to on these issues that you raised is the issue of humanity. the humanity and the dignity that all life must be afforded. that's the bottom line. so much of what we deal with in our daily lives even with these police shootings to me is not as much about black and white as it is about wrong and right and why we seem not to have the kind of respect for the humanity and the dignity of all of our fellow

citizens. my point very sum my is whenever -- simply is whenever you are engaged in a conversation, and i offer this as humbly as i can, if you can get the conversation on the terrain of humanity, it changes everybody's points of view. if it's about race or it's about class, you know, or anything, any other extraneous factor then the conversation will go a thousand different directions, and there's nothing wrong with that. it's good to have different conversations, we can hear even's point of view. but if you can ever get the conversation to center on the dignity and the humanity of whomever is in question then the conversation puts everybody on front street when you when you circle around to that. so that's my advice hope that helps, and one day i'd like to come hang out at your barbershop. >> host: tavis smiley, he used the grade "angry black man," is that something he should avoid? >> guest: i've been called that a few times including a couple times on this program today i've been called an angry black man by one of our callers. that's par for the course. i used to get upset put it

another way i used to get angry when i was referred to as an angry black man, and now it rolls off my back like water off a duck's back because when people call me angry, if by calling me an angry black man what they mean is that they sense and feel from me and receive from me a righteous indignation, there's -- isaac hayes once said i stand accused. i'm guilty as charged. if you if you regard me as an angry black man but what you're talking about is a righteous indignation, i stand accused of that. there are things about which i am righteously indig in a minute, things about which i am angry and quite frankly, i don't think -- how might i put this peter, i don't think we ever come into the fullness of our own humanity if we can't revel in the humanity and the dig any -- dignity, as i said a moment ago, of every other fellow citizen. and there's no way that you can live in this country and be blind to the injustices the

indignities, the contestation of too many fellow citizens' humanity and just look the other way. there are too many people in this country whose humanity is being contested every single day. by any other by any other name, you know homophobia is the contestation of somebody's humanity. ageism is the contestation of somebody's humanity. sexism and patriarchy is the contestation of somebody's humanity, and i don't think you come into your own humanity in full or in toto if you can't real and celebrate the humanity of other people. so for me, there are a lot of things i'm righteously indignant about, and if you call me an angry man and think i'm mad about x y or z, then again, as i said, i stand accused. >> host: tim in los angeles hi, tim. >> caller: hey, how you doing? thank you. the reason i'm calling is because recently you guys mentioned the education in

america, and i just wanted to know if mr. tavis smiley could comment on what could be done to improve the situation for our young black men and women growing up in america and going to school and this to whole thing. that was all. >> guest: yeah. it's a good question and there are so many answers to it, and i know there

a constitutional amendment that would guarantee every child in this country access to an equal high quality education. so think of automatic constitutional amendments and all the -- all the constitutional amendments and all the guarantees we have to free speech to carry weapons and all the other rights we have as americans. why is it that in this country every child no matter what state you're born in, no matter what color you are what county you live in, why is it that every child in this country is not guaranteed access to an equal, high quality education? that doesn't mean that you're trying to judge outcomes. but why doesn't every child in this country at least start at the same place? we got 50 states and 50 different way of educating children, but nobody is guaranteed access to an equal, high quality education. so the next question is how do you figure out what that is? the answer is, it doesn't matter

to me. whatever the best education is in this country that we can agree on, whatever the students in the schools that are regarded as the best, whatever they get let's give that to every country in this country. we can file the standard. what we think the is and whatever the best students have access to in this country what every child ought to have access to. and, again, i offer for your consideration what would happen and how education in this country might dramatic create change. somebody once said, peter, if benjamin franklin came back, the only thing he'd recognize is the education system because it ain't changed much in all these years. but i think it's going to take something radical to change our education system. so again i ask you to consider what would happen if we had a constitutional amendment that would guarantee every child in this country access to an equal, high quality education. >> host: in your book "fail up," you write the story about sarah jane olson and your history

relationship with bet. what is that history? >> guest: that is a long and sordid story. you've got good questions peter, that take hours to answer sometimes. so the short answer is after working with tom joyner on working every day, urban radio, i had the opportunity to go to bet to host a talk show that i hosted for five years on black entertainment television, and it was the combination of tom joyner's morning show in the morning and bet at night that made me a household name in black america heard in every major market in the country. at his height nine ten million listeners every morning, and i'm the resident commentator on that program and more watching every night on bet. so you got radio and tv covered in black america eventually you're going to become a household name and that's how i got exposed to my own community and then came pbs and npr and all the other stuff later on. so that's where i started to get my work done. after five years or being on bet, i had an opportunity for an exclusive interview, as you

mentioned, with sarah jane olson who had been accused of trying to kill a cop in los angeles. this interview again, long story short, kind of fell into my lap. i wasn't looking for it, but everybody was chasing this interview. dan rather diane sawyer barbara walters everybody was trying to get this woman to do the interview. why? because she was a white soccer mom who was living in the twin cities who got pulled over one day for a routine traffic stop and was discovered to be this woman who had been on the run for 30 some years, on the fbi's most wanted list. she's a soccer mom, married with kids now living in, again the twin states but for years -- twin cities, but for years nobody knew where she was. routine traffic stop for a back light that was out. they run fingerprints and, lo and behold, it's sarah jane olson. and so anyway i got the interview that everybody was chasing, and bet had been sold at the time to viacom.

viacom also owned cbs then and now. so this interview was the kind of story that wasn't really going to resonate with my black audience on bet, so i was looking for another outlet since i had the interview, the exclusive, another outlet to broadcast the interview. so since viacom had bought bet and they also owned cbs i first go to cbs and say i've got this interview, and i'm happy to sell it to cbs but let me do it on "48 hours," whatever, "60 minutes," give me a place to do the interview, but i'll do it on cbs because i've got the exclusive. oh, you don't have it, dan rather's going to get that. i said, you don't understand, it's on tape. cbs says show me some of the tape. i showed them some of the tape. three times cbs passed on the interview because rather and others -- i love dan rather it's not about rather, but the network was trying to get the interview for their big guy, dan

rather. they didn't want to give tavis smiley the interview. but iez already done it and taped it. cbs passed three times, i went to abc, they bought it. it aired on abc. it killed on the ratings and next morning the people at viacom woke up and said why did we get beat so bad last night and they found out they had this big, exclusive interview with tavis smiley. and they said, well, doesn't he work for us? he's on bet, our network. how did this happen? and they started trying to unravel the story and eventually i got fired for doing an interview on abc which cbs had turned down three times. but most importantly, my contract with bet allowed me to do independent productions. so i was never in violation of my contract. but somebody had to be the fall guy, and so i got fired. and missouri yahoo! angelou -- maya angelou as i discuss in "my journey with maya," there's a wonderful story of the book of the night when she calls me when

the news breaks that i got fired by bet. this was in time magazine, the new york times tavis smiley gets fired by bet, the most public thing i've ever done except critique barack obama, you know? it was in all of the news media everywhere. so maya angelou calls me one night, and we talked about it. she knew that i was -- she didn't know i was feeling but she wanted to know how i was processing being fired by bob johnson. and she said to me that night i have a feeling that in the days to come, you're going to have to end up sending bob johnson a thank you letter. i said a thank you note for what? she said because sometimes in life we jump and sometimes in life we get pushed, but either way in our lives there comes a tomb when it's time to move. p.m. -- it's time to move. it may not have come the way you wanted it to come, but i've got a sneaky suspicion that one day you're going to thank bob johnson for firing you at bet.

.. i would never have nobody what my worth of value was irpbs man wanted me or cnn would pay for me. i would never have known the tubs were there if had not been fired by bet. so i am grateful for the tomb i had at bet and even more grateful bob johnson fired me. >> host: ever send the thank you note? >> guest: i did. >> host: any response. >> guest: snow. >> host: chris ex-you're on with staffs smiley.

>> mr. smiley, honor to speak with you, sir. >> guest: thank you. >> caller: a man named dr. cart anderson out of maryland. i think you're familiar. >> guest: i am. >> caller: two questions real quick. do you believe that black people in this country are doomed to be a permanent underclass in the united states? number two do you believe that black people are due a reparations package from the government of the excuses the european governments. >> guest: first question hope not. second question, absolutely. now, i say absolutely we are entitled to reparations. the question then becomes what do we mean by reparations? so you asked 30 million black beam what it should look like you're going to get to 30 million answers. some people still want their 40-acres and a mule. i don't need that. other things i can use. but we have to figure out what we mean when we say reparations. i have been in favor for years now of some kind of reparations

that would allow for children to get the kind of education they deserve to go to the best schools. that's the best way that america could respond to this call for reparations, but i'm not interested in a lexus or a cadillac or something like that. the real question is all jokes aside, how do we defind what reparations is and there's so many different answers we could spend hours debating that. but is black america entitled to something? i believe the answer is yes. and to your first question, are we a permanent underclass, i hope not but if you tuned in earlier, the data is going indicate that black people have lost ground in every economic category in the own years. that's going to cause a serious conversation among our leaders and community aboutabout what the future holds for us and that's when reason i have been soaggr inrying

that's one of the reasons why i've been so aggressive. i'm trying to hold this administration accountable. they acted like i've never held clinton accountable or the other bush. i've been doing this for years. it hasn't been just with the obama administration. i want to be progressive about it because i said the opportunity for us to no longer be an under class is slipping away. time is not on our side. the data is hard to argue with. >> volume two may 22. last night i was standing between bill gates and warren buffett having a conversation thinking to myself that these are the number one and number two richest people in the world and here i was the three of us.

last night we had dinner at steve's crypt and this thing is so fat. it is a fat fascinating experience for me here are my top ten observations about the white folks view of the world. number ten whenever you meet a white person who runs the wire world they are going to ask you, so what do you do? number nine, nobody has a business card. number eight, they get up early in the morning. number seven they value information. number six, everything is free. number five don't be anxious. number four they're inquisitive. number three, they will get their drink on. that's about all i can say about that. number two i'm the only one here that flew commercial.

and number one when they bite you to something like this they want to know everything about you. >> this is an on-air book and it's a collection of my commentaries. he is one of the leading urban radio host in the country. it's a show mostly of comedy. i was the resident serious guy but every now and then i'd be a little bit funny so i had a list of the top ten. i should've called it a top nine or something. i throughout a top ten list every now and then. we had done some work together on the issue of technology and how black folk are being left out of the development.

people then and even now are consumers but are not producers of content. i talked to bill gates and the ceo that owns the clippers and long story short i got microsoft to let me travel around the country to do some work. i got to know bill gates somewhat and don't ask me how but every year microsoft would host a summit for the top 100 businesses in america. for whatever reason, they invited me. so is three days in washington hanging out at gates' house and for three days i'm hanging out

of his crib. it was fat it was beautiful it was lovely. hanging out with bill gates for a few days and that serves me well in my work as a broadcaster. i was taking me serious notes about what makes these people unique. they are running the biggest companies in the world and what's what makes them so unique? whenever i would come off the air there was always a great deal of conversation and it was instructive, informative and somewhat humorous. to hear what it's like for a black kid to hang out with bill gates. what did you see, what did you learn, what was it like?

it is interesting when you're around that much money and watch the way they operate. all jokes aside curiosity is what drives these ceos. if you're gonna run a major company you have to be carrie us. you have to ask questions and know what's going on. i've taken on some of those traits but i'll never be a billionaire. there are ways you can emulate to operate companies better even if it's a small company. >> matt from philadelphia you are on.

>> did you meet your tv can you turn down your tv? >> i had a comment. thank god for sending you. 90% of what you say i say amen to it. do you have any children, are you married? >> no. >> when is your birthday? >> september 13. >> if the public asked you to run for president would you consider? >> no.

>> a net do you have any children and are you married? >> yes i have children and grandchildren. >> are you running for president >> no. [laughter] >> i'd run for office, i did when i was in l.a. long story short i lost that council race but i learned a lot of lessons in losing that race. i'll put it this way i shared one of these lessons and the

lesson was that sometimes in our lives rejection is direction. sometimes in life rejection is direction. in my case i was rejected by the voters but it got me where i needed to be. radio commentary, ted television commentary i've been talking to you now for three hours on c-span. i was hurt when i lost that race in many ways that lesson and i've learned it many times since then sometimes rejection is direction.

>> looks can carry a person a long way. the l.a. trakstar and former police commander had charisma. this is in no way to diminish his political contributions but i see how people especially women responded to him. he was on my way. he was proud of me as interns and their hired as assistance. mice shields were lowered when he sat down so i was stunned by his opening, you've gotten to be at. you've gotten too big.

>> he meant physically. there was a time in my life where i played basketball all the time. then i blew out my left knee and my right knee. i don't play anymore because i had to stop with all those injuries. my body was telling me that's enough but i gained a lot of weight. i'm 50 now but i was probably 205 but 190 was my ideal weight. if i get down to 190 it won't be by choice. i had really ballooned up.

in the keeping the faith book my face is so huge. that was taken around the time i was at my heaviest. the mayor called me because he loved me and he was concerned about my health and he said to me all of the things being equal, if you and peter walk into an office looking for a job and everything else is equal, you have the same degrees from harvard and you and peter walk in.

if peters looking like peter and you're carrying the extra pounds you're gonna miss the opportunity. he wanted to tell me that i needed to take care of myself. i was home in l.a. one weekend and he asked me to come back for lunch. the mayor of l.a. called me and asked me to come to l.a. on a weekend so he could tell me face-to-face that i was unhealthy. when the mayor looked at me and told me i was too fat i really took it to heart. little by little i worked at it. >> you've lived a life out in public. >> that's true.

>> that's good and bad. don't go digging but we've all got something. what i like about it is that i really don't think that i've ever had to ever there's nothing in my life that i've been afraid of coming out and destroying. that doesn't mean i've lived a perfect life i've written about things and talked about things that i've done. i don't want to be in a situation where somebody's holding something over my head. i feel that way about my personal and private life and professionally.

what i mean by that is i don't mean to suggest i'm a self-made man. i don't believe in being self-made. somebody loved us and nobody does this by themselves. we all have people who love us and care for us and help us become who we are. but i don't know anybody anything for giving me this. i put my best up. it's been tough keeping things afloat so i have the same turmoil as everybody else but i don't have somebody come to me and say i made you. everything i've done i've done from the bottom up. like me or loathe me, agree or

disagree i am what i am. what you see is what you get baby. i don't have anything to hide in that regard and that makes my life so much more easy to live. the downside is that that's just for today and you're always in the public eye. my staff reads this stuff, but i don't read it. the cyber hate is too much for me. people can deny it all day long. i think about hillary clinton and barack obama. this is nothing compared to these people but i think about celebrities and stars who deal with that every day. people deal with it by not dealing with it. it's just gotten to a point that not that i'm tone deaf that

people disagree with me but i don't read that kind of stuff. it's not good for you and it throws you off your game. if you read what they say your taken time away from doing what you're called to do. that's what life is about doing what you're called to do. >> i appreciate you taking my call. what was your test definition. in that black barbershop myself, he wasn't raised by a black grandmother.

were you raised by an african-american grandmother. i don't like the president but i don't feel he levels with black people as much as some of us do because he just wasn't around. i don't want to put you on the spot. >> back in the day of field negro was out in the day field and a house negro was in the house. the field nigro is the more authentic negro than the house negro. they are hard-working in the field and the house nigro is not working as hard. there is more authenticity for a

field negra if i could just simplify it that way. so the caller was saying he refers to the president as a house nigro. i would never refer to the president as a house nigro. this is a very serious issue that as he pointed out doesn't get talked about but never here. there's always been great conversation about the fact that he was not raised the way most of us were. he was biracial he is not from the south like many of us and again i take nothing away from him.

those were not his choices where he was born or how he was raised. he did have a different journey than most african-americans. his experience are very different. two african-american parents how to work hard it's a very different journey when you come from that background. his kids are even having a different journey. based on who they're parents turned out to be it's different for them. that's true in the obama house. that is not true for families outside the obama house. for the first time ever black

kids today are not going to do as well as their parents. the data tell us that most kids are not going to do as well as their parents. for all the sacrifice and struggle, the blood the sweat the tears in black history where black kids are not going to do as well as their parents. i've gone full circle here. i'm not ever going to call the president a house nigro but he has had a different journey. the journey he had an mid journey's kids are going to have is very different than the journey some of our black kids

are having now. >> good afternoon, thank you for taking my call. i am a white folk. i'm a big follower of you. i have a very simple question. what do you think of al sharpton and sanders? >> i have great respect for him. i appreciate your comment. he is one of the rare voices. we had a segment this morning

and i made the point that it's hard to find in this town people who are willing to where the label liberal. and the reagan era expressing those opinions, back then with all due respect of the democratic party nobody wants to be a liberal or progressive. he did not shy away from that and i celebrated him this weekend on that. sanders is in that category. she is being regarded by many people as a liberal and she's making a stand in this town. there's a lot of people pushing her to run for president.

i like her politics on most things. i've known him for many years. al has done a lot of good in his life. none of us are perfect so there's things that he's done that i don't agree with. he spent years trying to change and we have to allow people to grow. there's things we've done that don't represent the best of who we are. his tact for how he feels the president is accountable but i believe black leaders have to be that they have to tell the president things he might not want to hear.

i love reverend sharpton and i respect him i've never set a negative word about him, but his approach dealing with this administration is different than mine. >> we have an e-mail question. i want to state that i am an admirer. tell us about your sponsorship with walmart. >> how long is this show? three hours? there's always an obama question and there's always a walmart question. walmart has been my sponsor for 17 years.

we just did a new deal a month ago that i would have a relationship with walmart for 20 years. i appreciate those 20 years. having said that there are no perfect companies. some of the greatest companies in this country have had lawsuits for all kinds of things. npr had a major lawsuit coca-cola has had lawsuits, toyota has had lawsuits. there are many people in this country who have had lawsuits against them for things they need to get better at. there are no perfect companies. if i was waiting for a perfect company to sponsor i would never be on the air. the question is is it worth hearing a voice that you

otherwise would not see or hear is it worth letting all of that go if you don't like that sponsor? quite frankly, other than c-span nubbin none of us would be here if it wasn't for walmart. they're the biggest company in the world. that does not mean that walmart can't be a better company and that we shouldn't stop pushing them to be a better company. i have had the ceo of walmart on my show. i told him i'm happy to have you come on and hear the questions you're going to get asked.

before the show he went through those very difficult questions and he answered every question. they show up on public television and answer these questions i'm just saying there are no perfect companies and without a my wooden beyond the air. what's interesting to me is i'm a union guy, all of my life i've been a union guy i've done everything i can to support the worker. in my entire career not one young has sponsored me and my

entire career. i have not had the kind of support from unions if i was waiting for them to support me i would never be on the air. >> today you have spoken about faith, family, friends. at age 50 has the goalpost changed for what you wish your successful legacy to be? ps know that we were cheering for you. >> let's talk about your legacy. >> i don't worry about what my legacy is going to be.

i think about my vocation and my purpose. to the young folk when you get this degree, you don't want to spend your life looking for a job. i'm not saying sometimes we don't have to work jobs to get to where we want to be, but a job is different than your calling. why are you uniquely here? what purpose are you here for what is your calling in the world? i believe that everyone of us have a gift and god our creator these are my own personal views everybody has a gift. there's a reason for you to be gifted. for every gift there's also a corresponding need for your gift.

now when your gift connects to its perfect purpose now you're living a life of meaningful value. what is the meaning for that gift? when you can pare those together, that's the sweet spot. i feel good about that and every day and finding new ways to try to make some sort of meaningful contribution. i work on public television and public radio i consider all of this part of choosing the gifts that i have. i want to be thoroughly used up so i don't waste time on things that don't fit in to what i think is the best use of my time, my calling and my purpose. so that's what i hope my legacy is. that i saw a need and i tried to do the best that i could with

it. i take great pride in it. one thing i love about c-span is that it's a network based on information and it's always civil. you get that on c-span and you also get that on pbs. there's never yelling and shouting on my program. you don't see that on public programming. there are few places left where you can have that civil discussion where people can be heard without being disagreeable. i've had opportunities and i've been there before to be in commercial space but i'm comfortable where i am.

it's not about the nonmeat money or the most viewers. having a conversation with people where people they gave in a civil way. i love it and this is where i'm going to be. >> after all those big thoughts, what about dancing with this stars? >> i enjoyed it i turned 50 last year and i decided i was going to do one last silly stupid thing before i turn 50. i thought i would do one last one before i turned 50. they come at me and i told them know a few times. on the eve of my 50th birthday

i said i'll take the meeting. i set i've never done this let me try to do something outside the box. i was raised in a strict pentecostal family. so strict in my up bringing that i couldn't dance or go to dances. here i am 50 years of age and i'm dancing. i have to live life on my own terms. i don't know why had to be so public, i learn to dance and they're voting for you and getting kicked off, but i enjoyed it and loved it. >> we have some video. >> yes were doing the cha-cha. look at that. look how smooth here that turn and dip.

zero my. look at that suit. look at that grace. >> did you get kicked off that week? no i got my high score that week. >> what did emery and joyce think of that? >> my mother that wasn't her thing, but we don't have to agree on everything. >> the first thing i'd like to say as is i admire you. my question is i don't see anyone disputing the fact that

black people have not made progress in america during president obama's term, but my question is do not state and local governments take accountability for that too? >> yes, i'm not putting all the blame at the feet of barack obama. for all the hopes and dreams and aspirations of black people, the data is going to be clear that we lost ground. my point is his color matters less to me. i'm proud we had a black president and i don't mean to take anything away from that. the facts are stubborn and we have to come to terms with that. every branch of government is responsible for taking these

matters seriously. i was just responding to the data. >> are the martin luther king recording still available? >> there's so much stuff online and i don't think it's too hard to find recordings so a lot of stuff is already online. i've been asked that question a lot. i'm getting more and more interested in the idea. i don't know what it's going to be. she's working on her first one. >> we have about 15 minutes left with our guest. >> hello how are you doing? you have no idea how many

positive ripples in the universe you keep going. you've been invited to the white house. as a history teacher, retired history teacher it seems that after the civil war there was so-called reconstruction and deconstruction and we have a congress now that doesn't see much hope there. >> i was asked specifically what my hopes were. there are three things that concern me won the majority must form a minority but

mr. mcconnell and his number one job was to defeat barack obama. number two the hopes and dreams and aberrations who want to replace barack obama in the white house is going to get in the way of a lot of conversations. it's going to get in the way of certain agendas if this senate is in tent on spending all of its time it's going to be a real waste of time and money and bad energy. i'm not very hopeful either about what's going to come out of this congress. i'm a broadcaster i never believe in avoiding answering a question.

my job is to ask questions and i'd want you to answer it. i don't ever run onto questions. last time i was on c-span i got asked a question and i answered it and i caught all kind of hell in the media for three or four weeks because i was whining on c-span about not being invited to the white house. i answered the question but i caught hell for not being invited to the white house. i'm sure when i answer this question the same thing will happen that i was here whining that i haven't been invited to the white house. no i have still not been invited. barack obama is the first president to not invite me to the white house for anything.

not a ceremony not to sit in the black row, not for a movie scene screening. i have not been invited to the white house for nothing. >> but there's no anger there. >> no anger. >> why did george w. bush invite you to the white house? >> i was invited for some black ceremony. i forget what it was but they invited me for something. i typically try to go when i'm invited. i haven't been invited but having said that, it's the president's choice.

he hasn't been invited to my house for the last seven years either. >> what's most frightening about the right? >> that was my second book in 1996. what you just read in 1996, this is 2015 and that's exactly what was happening in 1996. it's the same thing all over again in this town. it just goes to show that things always change. >> do you oppose marriage equality? >> i do not.

>> i was admitted been in l.a. and it was taken out of context. somebody asked me my views about this issue. i said to them the same thing i will say now my faith tradition believes that marriage is between a man and a woman. having said that i don't have the right to say who people should love or who they should marry. i don't believe it has anything to do with other choices. in my faith tradition marriages believe 'tween a man and a woman. but who you love and who you marry is not my judgment.

>> me and martin luther king have two things in common. were both from georgia and he went to school in chesterton pa. he spoke at a church. i'm one of martin luther king's protégés. i want to put together the biggest rally in march this is ever seen for jobs, education healthcare schoolteachers colleges unions for the middle class the pick, the poor. where is this going to be held? >> in washington d.c.

on fourth of july. >> that's an ambitious plan. it raises a question. whether or not march are as effective as they used to be. i think they can be, but i think you have to be careful. i get invited to a lot of these things and i do believe that you have to be up front. you have to catch the attention of people and i wonder whether or not marches are a default position. the real work king led marches, but the real work is change and

that happens out of sight. there could be armchair revolutionaries at the keyboard but there's a lot of work that it takes to make stuff happen. you catch hell for what you say and you get called names. it doesn't feel good so i understand the work it takes. that's what it takes to really make a difference. >> as a black person we have to be better than else just to be

average. >> there's a little pocketbook and it's so beautiful because of the advice that is put together. what's the best advice you've ever received, asked my guest. it's usually recorded so i've got thousands of these things but the advice that i've gotten from people that have accomplish many things in their life. in my library i have three of them, one in my office and two in my home. all of my libraries are autobiographies books about things that matter in the world.

i want to be somebody that does something meaningful in his lifetime. people that i pad on my show that it made contribution i want to know what the best advice is. somebody said you should put this in a book. why haven't done another one i don't know because i have so much good stuff. i should make a volume two of that. >> how can people contact you if they want to see all your stuff. what's the website? >> my staff has gone into overtime but my website is tap us talks.com..

it's all on that one site. >> i'm a fan. i just want to ask you a question. we are the product of the largest group of humans in the history of man. it's frustrating when they confine our analysis to the united states. it's not a full measure of our humanity because you confine our

analysis to that of somebody else. >> i was just in long beach the other day giving a speech. you say that i'm confining analysis to how i understand -- >> this place the western hemisphere is the largest and most culturally diverse of all time. if you would just approach our issues from a greater perspective. >> my question is what is that graders perspective.

what am i missing? >> that's what i'm pointing out to you. the united states of america is simply in it. i know that sounds radical. >> i think will move on. >> i would put it this way we live in a global community and i couldn't agree with that more so i'm not sure that i disagree that it's just about the u.s. of a and sometimes i get bothered by that. that we don't even see the rest of the world.

most of us don't even have passports and most of us who have them don't use them. every year i try to go somewhere outside of the usa because it's one thing to see america from inside but it's another to see it from the outside. when you see it from the outside you can see the good, the bad, the ugly, the things were celebrating. if you're on the float you can't see the parade. sometimes you have to get off the float see so you can see the parade. >> larry wants to know on a regular basis what do you do for recreation.

>> i like to work out and i love boxing. i love to work out. i'm in the boxing ring as exercise. i love comedy shows and comedians. i could go every night and see standout standup. you can find me in the corner listening to music and going to plays. i love things that all americans love. >> in 1941's grandmother who he

adored had suffered a heart attack and crashed into her and that knocked her to the floor. >> the book is about the last year of king's life. it's relevant to telling the story and martin at the age of 12, i won't tell the whole story , but he left home as a child. his parents told him not to leave. i just said you can't see the parade if you're on the float. his parents told him not to go but he went anyway and when he came back his grandma was on the floor dead. he feels like he killed his

grandmother. if he hadn't gone to the parade and stayed home she would've died. so that night when the family went to sleep he was on the balcony of the house and jumped off. it really is the first type of experience he had as a child with radical empathy for others. the role he wanted to play in feeling their pain started there. >> was a little bit of depression? >> absolutely. i think it's going to be a good book.

it's going to be a psychoanalysis of doctor king. he went through a search of doctors reports and hospital stays and in the last couple years of his life he was hospitalized. the official reason that they put out for his hospitalization was being tired and overworked, anxiety. but there was a bit more going on there. the research points out that people that have that kind of empathy don't know what that feels like. i'm not a scientist, i can explain it but they are much more able to feel the pain and hurt of others.

>> your taping one of your programs while you're here. one of him that i'm very product is going to air because edward brooks is the first senator reelected and just died at 95. they've never sat through a conversation together so i'm gonna put them together. >> tavis smiley has joined us for the past three hours. discussing his books, 2000 keeping the faith in nevermind success in 2006 :

thank you, peter. appreciate it. to

freedom. ". >> host: arthur brooks, where did the phrase "gross national happiness" come from? [laughter] >> guest: the phrase comes from the government of bhutan, i should say the king of bhutan about 30 years ago realized that a process of development of economic development, was great. it would pull millions of people out of poverty. people wouldn't starve to death, but it wasn't enough for human flourishing. so instead of counting narrowly the amount of money people had per capita, he had the idea of trying to measure the amount of happiness. he started an index called gross national happiness. that's where the expression comes from. >> host: and what did he find? >> guest: he found that a lot of the traditional measures of economic growth were, as i said, great and kind of a