w i think that we talked about this quite a lot. the book is called losing ground. it is written in 1984, and it basically made this one profound point. charles murray said the problem in the welfare system is not that it wastes so much money which invaded rules the life of the people that we are trying to help by making them permanently dependent on the state. this is such an important point that people agree left and right and it is beyond contention at this point. he has a visionary ability to get some major ideas across and it is a privilege to be working with him. >> host: it was pretty controversy over when you go to the bell curve. >> guest: the essential point of the bell curve, the controversy is that these were some of the work that he did where he talked about the differences with respect to race but that wasn't his central point. the central point that he was making is the class is disproportionately starting to revolver out of the difference is people have in their ability to perform cognitively and that

the class society is immoral and un-american and it's hurting the way that we are setting up our country. so that was the central point that he was trying to make in the book. the book that he's coming apart in 2012 which didn't look at race at all if looked at only the differences only on one side which was white america. the reason he did that was to not look at race and to say we are organizing in a way that is leaving the bottom behind. we need to bring the fullness of american society and opportunity. we need to do that more aggressively. >> host: numbers are on the screen if you want to talk to our guest. president of the american enterprise institute and the author of these policy books. who really cares, the surprising truth about the compassionate conservatism, it came out in 2006. gross national happiness. why happiness matters for america and how we can get more out of that came out in 2008. the battle how the fight between

big government and free enterprise will shape america's future into the road to freedom is the most recent account to win the fight for free enterprise that came out in 2012. you also list is in friedman and saint john paul to as some of your favorite people are biggest influences. >> guest: these are economical fingers if you think of john paul the great, john paul to the great pope. he's helped us understand a better rule today because he's been of the central figures about bringing down. as the head of the roman catholic church was responsible for reminding people around the world of human dignity was not consistent with communism.

what a baby catholics are not christians or religious people were not come human dignity as human dignity. >> host: since napoleon, the west has caused more issues than salt. >> guest: i think that people would have said that about many places in the world are currently.

they don't have the potential to develop policies whether the minorities are not systematically repressed where you can have a religious pluralism that's a mistake it's not just -- it is a mistake historically. we have to have good policy but i also believe that we need to be optimistic. >> host: what is your initial reaction? >> guest: my initial reaction is that he says a lot of different things. and as a presidential candidate he has to be sort of every place

i think that -- i would like to welcome him to aei. >> host: has he ever spoke their? >> guest: he is a smart guy and it's a good stage for him. >> host: i'm going to combine his because they are semi-related to the philosophically related. number one is free enterprise would allow the churches or organizations to operate tax-free followed by the minimum wage versus the tax loophole for the rich. >> guest: that is exactly right. it doesn't mean that you should before the minimum wage because again it's not >> 's it's the biggest rays drops for the most vulnerable and we have a better policy. that is inconsistent with what the framers of the current

policies believe. the belief that religious communities are part of a good society they are a public good and so therefore it is a nonprofit activity. they are not everybody else has to agree with that but that is the philosophy that motivated in the first place. >> we don't need a term limits for politicians. we need term limits for the abuse of the abusive to the abuse of think that enjoyed lifetime appointments. >> guest: again, one of the things -- i understand the sentiment. i get it. washington, d.c. i'm sometimes outraged as well. i know a lot of people work for the government who have done so for a very long time and they are faithful public servant working really hard. one of the great things the right has made his prescribing bureaucrats as necessarily lazy or incompetent.

if you do that, do no good servants will go into public service and if you do that you will get a left-wing bureaucratic apparatus forever. i think that we have to recognize the public service is a good and dignified thing to do. of course there are great recent bureaucracies and their cuts. there is waste, fraud and abuse ridden through the government. there's a lot we need to do to reform it, but i need more smart principled and conservative people to consider careers in government so that we can have a better point of view that isn't just simply another progressive constituency. and that is one of the biggest problems america faces. >> host: your book wrote it to freedom is wonderful and i really appreciate your having produced an audio book area i commute three hours a day and listen to it twice. freedom comes first, even before justice. >> guest: a three-hour commute

i hope that isn't too many miles so you're not sitting in traffic and you get a little bit of freedom your self. there are a lot of people that honestly be the. but honestly be the. when you look at the american policy, the values they are basically three. exigency justice or fairness and freedom or liberty. and the truth of the matter is that you can't load on one or more of these things. we want all three but certain people pay for some over the others. we need public policies that respect the different values that people have and we all want fairness and belief efficiency is a good thing but it's critically important. their voices tend to be on the libertarian side. so understanding those differences help us to be a little bit more tolerant and people that disagree than people

that disagree with us thanks for helping us read the book. >> host: you mention you are working on a fifth book. >> guest: it will be called the conservative park the whole idea is the vision of human foraging. a human movement that puts people first especially vulnerable people first. it will talk about the sanctification of ordinary work. it will talk about a new policy that a a policies for improving the lives of people that are poor in the cultural bias on the political right are people that are poor and it will talk about a better life for everybody for their families and happiness. this is what the conservative heart is all about and the conservative movement has fallen down by talking about economic efficiency and materialism too much. and thinking about how to share it with more people than how to be more pluralistic pluralistic in our view is and how more explicitly moral in our language about id. and opportunity is the way to go. so i'm hoping to have some sort

of an impact on the policymakers and on the citizens and bring us all together around these humanistic values that can lift other people up. >> host: so you are leaving after four books. >> guest: basic has been very wonderful to me, but i that i went to or collins mainly because my editor is adam bellow can use the son of the great author. he is one of the most storied editors in the movement. and i always wanted to work with him. >> host: john in new york city you are wrong with arthur brooks. >> caller: thank you very much to c-span and mr. brooks i appreciate your views especially on the poor. two quick questions. do you ever still play around with both mozart come and number

two, you hear politicians talking abut the need for tax breaks for the job creators and then the ball straight journal reports on how many large corporations like wal-mart can have their employees don't make enough to live on and they have to go on public assistance and food stamps and i know you were on this earned income tax credit but what about the people that are going to pay their employees on how much to? thank you. >> guest: on mozart, first i don't play anymore and the reason i don't play the horn anymore if i'm out of shape and i don't have the chops for it. so i listen a lot particularly with my kids i enjoy great music and i enjoy other people's suffering while they play music more than i enjoy my own self suffering through a lot of these great pieces. when it comes to paying a fair

wage, i understand the sentiment. what can i see corporations that make a lot of money. while the executives coming at me have employees that are really on the edge. the problem that we see is what a lot of the corporations, they are hiring people that have a hard time earning in value more than that. that is the reason that as a society we need to be able to say that we want to improve the capacity of people to create value. we don't want to pretend people are creating more value than they are. we want them to create more value. the way to do that is through capital enhancement, better education and the near-term eking working more as a contract with us as americans. now, that is good to come from everybody. it's disproportionately going to come from the corporations because they pay the most taxes and that is okay. but if we actually go to the corporations and say from now on you have to pay coming yes but some of these guys they don't create much value.

it's not going to hire them and nothing that we do in a free society is going to make them want these people more. and so that is the practical problem that we need to solve and that's what i'm going to get into. other corporations that only hire people that do create more value from the get-go they pay a lot more than the minimum wage. the pioneer organizations in the area is hobby lobby pushes and super famous because of that. but hobby lobby is paying 12 to $15 hour to start on us or you can do that you will be hiring different workers. and we want to make sure that everybody is capable of creating more value. and that should be the kind of moral goal that we have in society. >> host: you have to be in good shape to play the french foreign? >> guest: your lips have to be in good shape. spend a couple of months not playing it pretty soon you're not going to sound so good.

>> guest: i was happy in barcelona because i was in love. i chased the woman that i meant when met tonight is when i was playing a concert on the tour in france she didn't speak any english but i figured she wasn't french she was from barcelona. and i went to barcelona and a half% because i didn't show enough commitment she would agree to marry me. the good news. there was a great source of happiness and a singular source of joy in my life. playing at the orchestra was not really my cup of tea. it sounds like the best job ever but the trouble is when you play in the symphony orchestra you lack a lot of control. it is pure social control. and i have a tendency to have a trouble with authority so it wasn't the best job for me. >> host: at about the atmosphere of barcelona.

are the people have the? >> guest: spain is one of the unhappiest and it's been going the wrong direction for 25 years. spain is less happy than they were 25 years ago. some of the stereotypes that we have the lighthearted hippie standards are actually wrong and there are a bunch of different reasons for that. a member to the family, community and work in the foregoing are wrong direction on all four particularly work. 26% unemployment and 56% from 56% for young adults. that is just young people trying to be in the workforce to look for jobs. this is the recipe for misery. you have a secularized society that has been hugely socialistic taking away a lot of opportunities. the result has been bad macroeconomic policies, and the environment that isn't very noble for citizens, for the talent and passion they don't meet very well in the workforce and the result is if they think the standards are happier than they actually are. it's a lot of reform that needs

to happen in the country to get them on the right track. >> host: the phone lines are currently jammed but if you would like to ask a question on social media booktv is the better handle. you can make a comment on the facebook page facebook.com/mac book tv. and finally you can send him e-mail at c-span.org. thanks for holding. you are on with arthur brooks. >> caller: i was going to comment about wal-mart also and i don't know why the united states is ground for the company like wal-mart to pay their workers so low while the owners are billionaires and the taxpayer subsidizes their workers when they can very much afford to pay their workers decently. and when the last gentleman talked about that, i don't believe arthur brooks addressed why the working man taxpayer and

working woman in taxpayer has to subsidize the other businesses like that. and please come address this specific thing. by the united states is a ground for that. and also why after the colony collapsed all since then have gone to 1% of the population. why is it ground for the feudal system? >> guest: i wish i lived in a place called limerick or sonic or something like that. i lived in bethesda. the wal-mart question isn't whether or not the owners of the large stockholders and the executives make a lot of money. they do. and if they choose to give to charity i think it's great and important and i hope they do. the key is remembering if you start out a lot of those come in the income that they had it will

make hardly a dent in the workforce that ends up to the millions. what we need is the workforce where they are creating more value for wal-mart comes from the get-go they can be earning a higher wage. so instead of trying to put all of our energy towards forcing our corporations to spread around more money which would inevitably lead to cutting off more jobs for people that are marginal in the value that they are creating to find a way for people to create more value and in the meantime, let's end from the tax revenues find ways to make more and pay more to the people that are going to pay a vast majority of the taxes are rich people and corporations can and that's okay. i think is as a public contract we should be able to do that. >> host: which of your books have sold the best? >> guest: the road to freedom was on the bestseller list for a while and i'm grateful to that. i'm grateful for that. and some others were sort of surprising. the first commercial book that i wrote, which is actually the fifth book that i wrote i guess it is a good one who cares about

the charity a professor at syracuse university. i wrote a stick book and found myself in the radio on television and people bought it and in relatively large numbers changed very abruptly. if someone were to pick up one of her books which one would you recommend? >> guest: i favorite book, and they were not written by me. the favorite book that i've written that meant us to be as gross happiness. it didn't sell the most, but it's one that i -- i learned a lot about with my own personal values are. the book i'm writing right now is sort of closest to how i see the world and what i think we can do to make a better world together as a social contact.

>> host: wayne is in, not iowa. hello. are you with us? i think he's gone. let's try telling an albuquerque >> caller: yes, hello. thank you for taking my call. and i was going to ask something else that he keeps using this phrase "creating more value." as the clerks in wal-mart aren't really creating value of the way that it's structured and they get paid it certainly seems to deny the value that they are giving and doing and doing their jobs. and the phrase creating more value, it sounds like a think tank phrase for me. we've used it many times. i haven't counted it but i do not think that it's really

articulate. so if you could talk to that and also reparations for people who are definitely enslaved in the country that created value. >> guest: creating value may sound like a think tank, that it may have some correlations between the two. when i talk about value, we can talk about economic value and non- economic value. when i took that earned success i don't mean making money. that isn't what i mean at all. creating value with your life and the lives of other people which is a deeply moral thing to do. i don't think that there is any difference whatsoever between the guy that runs the hedge fund and somebody that trims hedges. on the contrary, anybody that believes that there is any value difference in the deep oral value between anybody that is an honest days work in any java

versus any other is on the wrong track. and that is the reason by the way. i heard the vice president on national tv talk about the dead-end jobs. it offended me so much coming initiative and everybody that is watching us today. we should reject that. there are no dead-end jobs. there are dead-end politicians. there is a dead-end culture committed and policies but there are no dead end jobs because there are no dead-end people. if you are giving an honest days work it is critically important. that's why i want policies. again, take away the idea that somehow we are going to browbeat organizations. let's be practical. we know that people on the work and honest day of work they should be able to support themselves and their families. we all agree on that. the question is how do we make it so. we have policies that can get it done. but we are not doing it because we are trying to score political points. so let's fight for working people.

let's fight for the poor. let's implement the policies that will actually get that done, which incidentally will also be disproportionately paid for by rich people and corporations. what do today and we will see tremendous progress in the social justice in america. >> host: crazy e-mails to you has a solution for the high cost of a college education? do you need a college education to get a job please do not tell me manufacturing jobs are coming back. >> guest: manufacturing jobs are not coming back. manufacturing is a good percentage of the value of the american economy than it was 30 years ago but it is one eighth of the jobs. you are right. it's just less job intensive as a part of the economy. education is critically important coming, and we need a couple of different reforms. ..

thomas edison state college in new jersey. i did my whole college degree by correspondence and finish what i was 30 which i mentioned earlier. if it hadn't been for that competition i would've gone to college. i simply would've been foreclosed on the opportunity. i had a deep personal reason for a different path that will exert downward pressure on the tuition

rate for traditional college students as well. >> host: potty mouth into questions. i was surprised to see mr. burks challenge the orthodoxy of the influence of politics. what should be done to address the oversized influence of money? >> guest: i am not as worried as a lot of people are about what money is doing in politics. i want a lot of transparency. i want people to know what is going on and i want less of the weird regulations that help certain people but don't help others. i think there is a lot to be said for free speech have manifested the way repay for politics but we should actually understand who is paying for what. in the political process we can get with more transparency that would be good for the process. >> host: paul second question. economists say for everyone in the world to live like americans, it would require three or four more planets. is the american system, the

american standard of living scalable? >> guest: it is. the american system is scalable. there's a lot of facts that were really surprising to people. if you make within $34,000 a year you are the global 1%. people don't actually recognize that. virtually everyone watching us today from the global 1%. you may not get to that standard for more people around the world? of course not. that's ridiculous. they would be written off for data and are now making $9000.10000 a year. places like baby yet that are tremendous success stories have been able to get ahead without the idea will consume all the resources. until relatively recently, historically, several hundred years ago, the truth is it either had more money arthur would have less. free enterprise made a positive somewhat where peter can a positive somewhat where peter can have more anarchic enough war. should reduce sustainably? of course.

we can do well to think simultaneously. we have a strong ethical economy and we alls together. that is the lesson of the free enterprise system. a couple of quick facts. when i was a kid in 1970 compared to today the percentage of the worlds world's population living on a dollar or day less 70% of americans think there's more hunker the world then there was the 70s. it's completely wrong. 80% decline in the poverty. the reason for that was not the united nations for the world bank for the imf. good institutions are bad. people disagree on that. was five things. it was globalization free trade, property rights the rule of law and american-style entrepreneurship is spread around the world after 1970. these are facts. now what are we going to do as good stewards and global

brotherhood to bring that to more people. instead of saying we all have tickets and less, we all have to live under more austerity as if there was a solemn, a set amount of sources that we can never go beyond. that is wrong. prosperity can grow when more people can come out of poverty and we have a moral obligation to do it to serve fellow man. this is the optimistic vision that the american system should bring in liberals and conservatives should band together on sr compact of global brotherhood of people around the world. >> host: chris huntsville alabama. please go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: hello, gentlemen. how are you doing? thank you for c-span. mr. burks i just want to tell you that i am a fan of milton friedman as well. i read several of his books have watched a lot of black-and-white

from back in the day when he was talking about the economy. in the middle eastern country as well as india. he weighs showing how an economy can be with people working together. how could we bring that blueprint from that kind of world to the ghetto in the ghetto in low-income parts of this country and put it in that we can do with a argument over there was little or nothing. >> host: chris, what do you do in huntsville? >> guest: construction mainly, but due to the weather it is kind of slow right now. >> host: what attracted you to milton friedman? >> caller: basically the way that if the system can help people that don't have a voice economically, that it benefits all and it is something that is

good. you don't have to worry about dependent on welfare and food stamps because we can do for ourselves. >> guest: thank you chris. how was it that we have world development policies that are so good and potentially rwanda or transition economies, but where so much trouble and around cities. for that matter in rural areas that i left behind as well. the key things to remember or we know how to create prosperity. we know how to do that. you need work and unique human capital and culture. that is what you really need. you need a work culture that embraces the values that we are all created equally and created a sql and that we could all create value again. i use it again so our viewers keeping a word count. i said it again.

we need a culture where we have a political system where politicians are warriors for job creation. this is one of the things i like about governors because governors are crazy -- i just create a 7000 jobs. they will run down the street if they can get 7000 jobs to come to their state. what will they do more of? before my feet hit the floor every morning i say what am i going to do for the government system is in the way of that. when a debate bias job creation and unique human capital. i think it is holding people back that they are being discriminated against when it comes to having good schools and equal access to education. it is not right in this country that we have too many places where school systems around for nearly for the benefit of grown-ups enough for kids. it is absurd we are doing that. california were 52% is spent on education yet you have one of the highest and fastest growing

poverty rates in the nation. we actually can if we have a bias for work on a healthy culture and for training cave for training kate doesn't matter their basic civil rights. post go arthur brooks, sometimes the 7000 jobs that a politician creates, tax incentives, tax breaks come in maybe free something or others. is that an effective way to create jobs? >> guest: i am always in favor of finding the way for government to take less money. i know the government needs the revenue. but when there's competition with respect to taxes between states, that's a good team because i'm that there's more economic value being created privately, which is better for the economy which if things work right better for everybody. when there is cronyism however that's a problem. special deals come in the special industries where they're able to get a leg up on their

competition here that is struggling a problematic and that's what a lot of states with you. bring your source to my area. your competition will have to pay taxes but you are. that is cronyism and unfair and bad for workers bad for economies and bad for government as well. post of those types of incentives, which classified those as you do in "the road to freedom" with government activity? >> guest: yeah i want tax regimes more favorable to everybody that create a magnetism for economic activity is supposed to targeted tax breaks for individuals. >> host: fargo north dakota. as an atheist as mr. brooks suggests that makes it to be happy. atheists and people of faith may or may not be happy for various reasons. freedom from religion would improve my chances of happiness. post go i would recommend religion. he's an atheist but he

understands the beneficial impact of spirituality in everybody's life. as an atheist you are not for close to the same benefits that i is a practicing christian look at. good luck. thanks for your question. >> host: larry, centralia washington. good afternoon to you. >> caller: thank god for c-span and booktv. my favorite weekend programming. my question for dr. brooks. the heritage foundation versus aei, can you compare the two against each other and the second question would be as it the opinion of the citizens united decision in the mail a request for donations from my party. i quit sending anything because it's just like adding a cup of water to the pacific ocean compared to citizens united. >> host: larry, we will get that. if you could share your opinion or what you know about aei and

the heritage foundation, what you think. >> caller: when i watch c-span and anytime there's someone on heritage foundation selling a book or some thing, it is so far right-wing that i i can hardly sit through the whole program and aei i noticed that during his tenure as secretary of state his wife was ordered a job at aei. i am not sure about that. >> host: thank you, sir. we will get arthur brooks' views. >> guest: thank you for that. i grew up in seattle and then through their all the way through my childhood. i know it well. the heritage foundation has been around since the 1970s. aei was formed in the late 30s. aei is more academic. the heritage foundation has been more professional for the conservative movement.

so they've had a different action to route the year. i've been a donor for both for a long time. they do different things as a matter of fact. aei my institution does not corporate policy. if you think it's today or not the official views because aei doesn't have official views. 70 full-time scholars and 145 on top of that and so our views are more like a university than it is like policy advocacy organizations. foundation has views that are central to the corporation and that is how they will be affect it. they are quite different along these lines. >> host: colin powell, i think he meant dick cheney. >> guest: when cheney has a wonderful book that came out last year a biography of madison. i recommend it to everybody because it tells us something about what a great and independent thinker to help us remember the original conception of what it meant to be an

american dreamer from the get-go. >> host: has almost powell been involved with aei? >> guest: no she hasn't. but when cheney and other public figures are privileged to be involved throughout the years. >> host: larry also asked. there's a lot of legitimate disagreement on it. it doesn't necessarily bother me that we have more of a competition of money between them. somebody who is sending them five or $75 check is going to be a smaller percentage of the sun that goes into it. that means they have an opportunity to affect the debate in different ways. i might note that a good thing to do is to support think tanks for example i'm a witch as if a $75 check instantly. >> host: dear fisher facebook page. mr. brooks, both born babe has so much as stated by performers of our tax system should look to

taxing us when we spend wealth, not when it's served. those on to talk about the fair tax act. >> host: the idea of consumption taxes. for those who are want just enough to look at the website of think things, i recommend going to aei.org and look at our tax specialists. he's written a book on consumption taxation called the ex-tax. all that means is you don't have to pay taxes on the money you save. but when you take money out when you spend it, do you thought you consume you have to pay taxes on. there have appropriate ways of protecting poor people from taxation. it's a much worse is the way to design our tax system. if we did that we would see the stronger economic growth and greater tax fairness. >> host: greta post that you should run for president in 2016 if for no other reason than to get your message before the

public. >> guest: thank you so much. the question is is america ready for the president. i think not. >> caller: yeah thank you. i was wondering if you had the insider overview or thoughts on the permanent dividends at the oil revenues and disperse dividends every year. all of the residents they are. it's pretty intriguing they been able to keep this going for so many years. >> host: what do you think of that? >> guest: i think it's pretty good. it's the government handling the people's resources and returning it to them. it's amazing they can invest in i wish everybody could do that. just go the key to that is you need to be free big natural resource, have very few citizens per square mile and have the tap never turn off. it's a little hard to scale with the whole united states.

saudi arabia has done that norway extractive industries have done that. and nonfree countries, it's the kiss of death quite frankly. and extractive industries and nonfree countries you've been supporting populations on the basis of modern success but on the basis of natural resources can be really dangerous. fortunately in america we can do better in alaska has shown it doesn't have to be terrible. >> host: ronald is calling from west lafayette indiana. are you associated with purdue? >> guest: >> caller: yes i am. >> host: and the student ecological science and engineering. >> host: go ahead with your question or comment. >> guest: i have a two-part question. but i'm thinking about distribution and supply and demand. i would like to know i do think you this would improve if anyone has access to nutritious food? how do you think the american food system would be affected if

government support for food programs like snap and soybeans were replaced by an earned income tax credit for farmers or free enterprise and see what happens? >> host: what are your thoughts first? >> i don't know. there is a large debate about replacing the tool program so snap kicks up the% of usda programs bills but i think technically the supply and demand side of it, if you really remove support you find it is pretty difficult. the same people who are growing soybeans, would end up being the same people with nationals because it is difficult to grow vegetables over a marge company. >> host: what do you hope to do with your degree in ecological

science? >> continue research on the social side because it is difficult to work on what and how when you don't account for why. think about how all because each act of research is political in the constrained world we live in. >> guest: you are a the expert on this. one thing that i want viewers to note. that is true in every area of policy and it is true for each of us to think about why we're doing what we are doing. this is such a big deal in policy work that is central to the work we do, particularly in the case of true stories, social entrepreneurs are working to have basic food and water security for people all over the

world and doing that would be in unambiguously good thing, this would lead to more human accomplishment, people who are starving and have nutritional needs of people who simply cannot earn their success in ways so that is a good thing to do. in the united states food security through the snap program is critically important. i casino data to dissuade me of the idea we should be cutting or fundamentally altering food stamps or the cost would outweigh the benefits, i think we need to detach that from the system of farm subsidies, distorting markets so much and making certain foods of more expensive than it should be especially for the pork. farm subsidies are something that are a politically difficult thing to change but if we are looking at human welfare basic fairness, people in the farming community want to get rid of these things. they understand you can't just do it for competition and not

for themselves. they want a fair system that levels the playing field for everybody. energy producers of ethanol tell me privately let's get rid of all the ethanol subsidies that will normalize the corn market and make it cheaper as a source of food and at the same time if you get rid of the energy subsidies, we should be getting rid of oil subsidies and wind subsidies and energy subsidies the best forms of energy will obtain so i think in equilibrium we need more free enterprise particularly for the case of job opportunity and growth for the poorest americans. >> springfield, georgia, you mentioned pope john paul ii, what are his views on the current pope seems very antithetical. >> the current pope is of marvel, more people are attending mass all over the world than ever before. if you are a catholic or someone sympathetic to catholics you

think that is the great thing. the current holy father is, and has not been exposed to american capitalism. when he thinks of capitalism he thinks of what is going on in argentina today. a hundred years ago argentina was the richest country per-capita in the western hemisphere and has been under development because of cronyism and all the things i have been regretting over the past two hours on this program have been in huge abundance in argentina. no wonder of the current pope sees capitalism through that lens. progressive than conservatives and centrists who benefited so much from the rule of law and property rights who believe free enterprise and lift people up. we all think these things that we have an opportunity with the holy father to help him understand how the american dream can be more like a dream of human dignity, it is the best

opportunity since i have been a catholic. >> host: mary is calling in from pittsburgh. you got to turn down the volume. we will put you on hold for a second. mexico, on the line with you. turned down the volume, you have a little bit of a delay. david in phoenix, david in phoenix. you with us? david is not with us. let's try another pittsburgh call, joseph in pittsburgh we are listening. >> thank you. i wanted to ask dr. brooks, the contract with harpercollins. i am pretty sure that is owned by rupert murdoch, one of its holdings. what is your opinion of rupert murdoch? >> guest: it is part of news

corp. and it has the chairman rupert murdoch. i know him personally. he loves this country. he is so happy to be in the united states and happy for the freedoms that he brings an he has been a transformational person in media all over the world. in a word i admire him. speech >> caller: i am waiting for them -- hi, good morning. it is still morning out here. i want to ask dr. brooks we grew by taking jobs from europe and now all china is growing by taking jobs from the united states. how do you continue this system of taking jobs from one set of people to another set of people and still maintain some sort of

middle-class? >> guest: thank you for that. the important thing to keep in mind the point you are making that want to underscore is any change doesn't just have winners. when you have fundamental economic change there are people who lose out as well. a good system, a good economic system and good social system recognizing people are going to lose and when you have to deal with those who losing. the thing that i want to correct is we didn't just take jobs from europe, and a creative system of greater abundance. china when it becomes free, i wish we had free enterprise as opposed to just capitalism, can create a lot of economic opportunity without just destroying the opportunity in this case. in the united states jobs do move to part of the world that are in the process of development where we were before. if we deal with that in a way that doesn't leave people behind you can't just ignore people who

are left behind, you have to find, get serious about education, and human capital and retraining and we have not done that in this country. i go to a little town in kentucky that the company factory in the town has been shut down and moved to guatemala, honduras or some place in asia. a lot of people are unemployed, generally speaking a doctor will start this specializes in disability will start giving diagnoses of back pain and depression and other things of people can subsist on $900 a month of disability. that is the reason we are all over 11 million americans on permanent disability in this country because of economic dislocation, the highest it has been in history since we have been leading for americans behind. at the same time i go across to north dakota. talking about walmart, the average starting salary for stocking shelves that walmart is

$17 an hour free-market that work. why is it we don't have relocations subsidies? why don't we have greater information's the people who have less opportunity can be paired up in places where there's more opportunity, why don't we think of ways to retrain people and move them and consistent with america's culture, all of us sitting here and watching, our families didn't just start out here, native americans did but the vast majority of americans didn't do that they came from someplace else, looking for opportunity, we need a government and culture -- >> prime minister margaret thatcher is reported to have said the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money that is the road america is headed down now. pennsylvania, you are on the air. >> thank you for your program and your present speaker. i just adore everything he has

said. a little about myself i am registered libertarian, three pictures on my window sill, each of mm-hmm says work is the only thing that dignifies the man. thank you for the things you have mentioned that help me in my argument. people want to say the good old days are gone. they certainly are not you have given so many examples how we have improved and i hope my friends were listening. second, please tell me how i can be more of an activist. how can i inspire that? might two children have grown up and very successful but they're not activists and neither of my. although i am 90 i want to be more active and i want to inspire that. the message you give with us, we have to inspire in everybody, how can we get people out of office who are not doing their job? >> guest: >> quick snapshot of your life

prior to today. >> caller: i am an anglo-saxon of italian heritage and i grew up in brooklyn and philadelphia and went to europe for four years 1949-1953 and met my husband there, he was a great husband, and i want you to please tell us how to be more active. >> guest: if i could be like you when i am 90 that is all i ask. the key to activism is remembering that each one of us belongs to communities and each of us is blessed with leadership in these communities. if more 9-year-old people were talking like you, the people on your windowsill work brings people to dignity. this is unambiguously true, remembering the experiences you have in your life wisdom you

bring, you find ways in your particular community to share these ideas, that is how ideas spread in the united states. in the current vernacular, that is talk things go viral, because we see ourselves as a leader, a pivotal role in each community and thinking who do i touch, with whom i can share these views, that is where leadership starts, thank you and god bless you. >> host: phoenix, you are on the air. >> caller: i watched timothy geithner and i had to turn him off before i had a stroke. i would like to hear from a very intelligent the fender and reformer of the system ought it is, i accept too big to fail but why couldn't the individuals responsible for those institutions have perceived savage punishments? maximum security, confiscation of assets, how could this system

never regain credibility if they keep getting away with it? >> thank you for your question. the reason there was too big to fail and we had t.a.r.p. and the bailout's is because there was so much fear. economists to and know whether or not the atm machines were going to stop working and i don't mean atm machines for rich people but you and me and that simulated among republicans and democrats the will to do something like t.a.r.p.. went there once -- there were activities that were improper, legal and moral impropriety we need rectification of that, we need people to take more responsibility and it offends me as much as anybody else. 2 needs to fight for that? conservative, not just progressives need to stand up for fairness and say it is not

right when somebody gambles with somebody else's money and they are rewarded with being bailed out and able to proceed from there. i agree with you but what we need is more public moral outrage from more citizens as opposed to passing all legislation that cronies are able to wire around. >> host: from arthur brooks's "the battle: how the fight between big government and free enterprise will shape america's future," the financial crisis consistent three claims, government was not the primary cause of the 2008 economic crisis the government understands the crisis and knows how to fix it mean street americans were nothing about the crisis, the only way to save the economy is through massive government growth and deficit spending and the of middle class will not pay for the stimulus package, only the rich will. >> guest: these are all views we heard starting in 2008-2009 and

these things turn out to be false. the biggest one we need to keep in mind, i direct everybody's attention to colleague peter wallace and's work on housing and the financial crisis, the biggest thing we need to remember is government housing policy which said for decades it was democrats and republicans, full american citizenship requires being able to buy a house and subsidizing purchase of houses through loans people shouldn't have been getting to roll up the price of real-estate led to the bubble and melted the financial system, this was bad public policy. the worst part is we are in the process of building a great big bubbles in financial markets. we can look at a malfeasance of people in the private sector in our last caller pointed out that it was a real problem but it was the private sector following the public sector's lead down this path let's not have government that rex our economy. that is just common sense. >> host: new book coming out in

january. >> guest: recommended to everybody's interest. he basically as a book coming out in january that shows how financial crisis proceeded. it takes you step-by-step. i know it is complicated and people throw up their hands and say i don't understand it. read peter wallace and's book after the first of the year and you will be a lot smarter in a cocktail party. >> host: you can see peter wallace and on booktv's afterwards, one of the books we are looking at. jessica in georgia, high. we are listening. >> caller: a am excited to be here on c-span. i am one of your admirers. recent graduates from arizona

state university studying sociology, what do you think each generation can do to move the united states forward to have a more positive opportunity? >> guest: thank you and congratulations and good luck on your career. in many ways this is the most exciting time because there's such a blank slate, desire for people to do good at a time after a lot of suffering in this country and i can tell you going to be a real leader. the key thing i would recommend is this, think for yourself. it is easy for me to sit here on the great c-span and tell you this is how you should think, think for yourself. this is what america needs more young people not saying i'm republican or democrat and this is the way i think for when i was in college my professors all taught me this is the way to think. we are all autonomous individuals. we have access to lots of information. don't take as given what other

people attending you. remember generation of leaders will save this country. incumbent morally and each person who is coming along to say i will form ideology on the basis of what i think is right. if we had a generation of new leaders or freethinkers, will be to the powers that be really dangerous for these vested interests because you could be the revolutionaries' the turn the country >> host: from "the battle: how the fight between big government and free enterprise will shape america's future" the leather understand a 30% alisha's appeal among younger adults. aggressively and successfully wooed them in the 2008 election campaign and plants to grow the coalition over time. there are three long-term strategy to keep the in the 30% dilution has off their debts, given government jobs and make sure they never have to pay for the services of the government. >> guest: there's always a

strategy for people in power to bring people along and permanently into their coalition. the greatest weakness entrenched powers have is people that are taken for granted to stop being taken for granted. it is astonishing when i look at the political debate there's a sense of demographic depression among conservatives and euphoria among liberals who sandlot, the world belongs to the left, how come? more and more non-whites, more and more single women, 18 to 29s in favor of president obama and company, completely incorrect thinking. demography is not destiny. 75 years ago you couldn't find two rolling catholics together who voted for the republican party but catholics are overwhelmingly republican, demography actually doesn't destine any particular party or ideology to failure or success. what this tells us today, we can

hasten these patterns of destroying democratic destiny by asking people to think for themselves so this could be the greatest time or the greatest nightmare on the basis of what we do to improve the moral climate, fighting for the poor, creating more opportunity, all things those demographic groups that have traditionally been left wing that would bring them to the philosophy that has engendered the greatest human dignity. >> host: christi, good afternoon. >> caller: good afternoon. a pleasure to speak with you both. but girl who called in earlier was asking about activism. i discovered a monument in plymouth, mass. the 9 never even knew existed called a national monument to the fore fathers, in turn 125 years old this year, it stands for faith, morality, law,

education and liberty. said it stands for civil and religious liberty. the armenian genocide, i grew up in that family where we still have a family business. i am so worried for our country and so scared and for some reason this monument i have been trying to rally the troops a round, don't know if you have any suggestions or can put me in touch. >> host: you found in plymouth mass.? >> caller: it is in plymouth not by the waterfront, it is on a hill, the largest granite monument in the united states of america and it was built during the festival war. a had to scale it down a little bit because it was hard to raise money at the time but the thing i find it unbelievable is most

americans have never heard of the monument. i didn't either. i am 50 years old and i was there in 2010 but over the last few years the work i have been trying to do or spread about the monument is a amazing all i have connected to americans from all over the country and this gives some hope. i don't know what to do. >> guest: i didn't know about that either but isn't there anything more wholesome? these are terrific american values and human values. what can you do? part of it is the torch of your life. if you the lead in these things these bring the most people to the happiest life, what greater joy can we have and fighting for these things, be a happy warrior. one of the big mistakes we make a america, those of us blessed with leadership positions, that is pretty much everybody

watching today. you are watching c-span, a program about public affairs, you are interested in these things, how to exert our leadership? number one is not hiding views about what a better life means for more people not hiding behind a materialistic and economic language that saying this brings the best life to the most people and i'm willing to stand up and fight for this whether the people i am fighting for a vote like me or not, that is the beginning of being a happy warrior. when we do that all we ever going to be a strong movement. >> host: faith and family, conservatives have been characterized for family values. >> guest: when you have sources of happiness like a planned family don't use them as a weapon against somebody else. is absurd to take the source of happiness and use it as a weapon. use it as something to share. the difference between a force

for a negative force and a positive force, and oppositional for said the majority joyful force is that the first fight against things using any weapons at its disposal. the second, the majority happy force that is winning fights for people. how do you fight for people? by sharing forces of good news in your life. if you have something beautiful and good you want to share for more people, do some of positive humanistic way, don't do it in a negative your rhetorical way that batches people with your views, got something big, this is important, i want to share it with you with global brother and a sense of love. >> host: two issues we have addressed, immigration and same-sex marriage. >> guest: immigration i strongly suspect will be much less of an issue, hot potato in 2016 that it is today. president obama gave the

republicans a great gift for through the executive order. this will slowly but surely take it out of the political discourse republicans are less responsible for legislation. it will be hot for a while but my guess is democrats are going to be very disappointed that president obama did this because they couldn't keep the immigration issue alive nearly as long since obama took this step. the second is the way real immigration reform will take place is a little by little, over five years there are 30 things that need to get done and through legislation and policy actions the most important least political objectionable can be taken apart piece by piece. high skill immigration reform, letting more engineers into silicon valley, a guest worker program, the idea of of verify existence of you know who is illegal in this country and who is not little by little there will be positive progress for immigration reform and you will be much less controversial in 2016 than it is today.

on same-sex marriage, this is something conservatives, there's a lot of controversy on the right. their loved characterizes same-sex marriage as an kyushu where the right is monumentally 100% against it. that is not true. there is a huge amount of dialogue on a ride on this particular issue. rather than adjudicating that and tell you what we learned from this. 15 years ago same-sex marriage was a sunday-30 against, today it is a 60:40 issue of for. the advocates for marriage equality same-sex marriage stopped fighting against those values and fighting for = civil rights. doesn't matter what your views on this are. some people are really against it and some are for it. the lesson to take away is when you stop fighting against things and start fighting for people you can start winning your policy battle. >> host: in vermont, you are on booktv on c-span2 with arthur

brooks. >> caller: my question is you seem to be espousing the answers to many of our social ills and the government isn't doing anything. is it because they're more interested in sustaining themselves than they are in taking care of the country? understanding sooner or later the country will explode. >> thank you. i appreciate the question. it is hard for me in the heart of paula cmakers and look at their motives. look at the fact the we are not dealing with a lot of issues that we need to. to begin with it is much easier when you are not in government to give solution than when you law because the political process is complicated but there is also a bigger problem we need to deal with and that is

leadership. leaders don't look at political coalitions simply to accumulate political power while bashing their enemies. that is not leadership. leadership is using power for a positive purpose, i will ask people to sacrifice, do hard things, spend political capital. that is not what we have in washington d.c. or from the president of the united states. we don't have leadership lack of executive leadership grinds systems gallon. the president of the nonprofit organization, it is not the united states, is only a couple hundred people working full time but let me tell you if i didn't think what we are trying to do, how we trying to move ahead, are we trying to help other people, if i didn't miss my own capital internally the organization would grind down, donors would stop giving to us, we wouldn't be able to at impact in the policy-making process a of a positive force on politicians on the land right good books and materials and have good events. this is required in leadership

all over the place. the number one thing we should regret is we have forgotten what leadership means that the executive level and that is the problem in the united states today. >> host: 15 minutes left with our guest in this month's "in depth". anita, calif. you are on the air. >> caller: how are you doing, dr.? wanted to talk about the situation of government employees as far as the last numbers are checked a few years ago the coming up on 30 million state, local etc.. they don't contribute anything. the don't produce anything whatsoever. it can't be sustained. instead of taking care of business, the wondering what is for lunch. do you have any answers as far as that is concerned, ideas? it can't be sustained. that is my main concern.

>> guest: there are a lot of government employees. that is unambiguously true. i actually think, i am not -- i wouldn't quite agree or characterize government employees as not creating good. we have cases where markets fail and they can't redress' every wrong in our society. we have public goods, i wouldn't say some all police officers and firefighters and people running, teachers, working for the government are not creating a lot of positive good. are there too money? yes. is the government too big? absolute. what do we do about the? let's take one tangible issue that has driven part of the expansion of government and government payroll and that is public sector unions. the whole idea that unions are bad is not right. the labor unions are completely compatible with the free enterprise system but the have to be able to exist in balance with management of corporations and have an interest in not

driving corporations out of business. when you have collective bargaining agreement between management and employees they have an interest in making sure the company is prosperous, that is not the case with public-sector unions because they don't have a budget constraint. when jon corzine was the governor of new jersey when he got in front of public-sector union and that i am fighting for you, the ceo of general motors going to the united auto workers a novel do anything i can to release your wages. that would be for the. he would be fired by a board of directors because that would not read the balance between the two. the problem with public sector unions is the flexible budget constraint and is your money as a taxpayer. they can use the funds to support political candidates who support the expansion of public sector unions who are effectively paying for those political contributions with tax revenues. that is a real problem. i and is the al conservatives get bent out of shape i recommend progressive viewers get bent out of shape about that

as well. >> host: e-mail. what does mr. brooks think about a recent column encouraging corporate boards to include labor representatives and community representatives? this would help boards to think more in terms of stakeholders and not purely stockholders. >> guest: i have been on panels with him in the past. we don't agree politically his jacket is we are corporate governance problem and he has a particular solution which is bringing more labour representation and community representation on the board. i don't agree with that i agree we have a corporate governance crisis. alex pollock has done a lot of good work on corporate governance. the is simply not enough responsibility on corporate boards for organizations and we needed different kind of

responsibility and he has positive steps how to do it. having an affirmative-action from labor unions and community reps, i think that would create that misalignment of incentives in dangerous ways for corporations that will ultimately hurt working people but i do agree with harold that we are a problem with corporate governance in america today. >> host: sharon wants to know how has catholic faith and form your thinking? >> guest: when i do for work on free enterprise are remember free enterprise comes after morality. that is not just roman catholic thinking that ethical thinking secular ethical thinking, just happens to work, the values that i forms work for my christian faith but i tried to remember more of the becomes before markets. without a proper sense of brotherhood, helping others, honesty, love of markets will be like any other system that can be used for good or for ill,

there will be some a moral machine. if we don't have a good view how we are trying to help our fellow man we won't help our fellow man enough with resources at our disposal which in the keys of the united states should be freedom of press. >> host: this is from jean. work 30 years, save 10%, all through those years, invested most of my husband's life-insurance, all went down in 2008, had to retire in 2002 to medical problems, and all dependent on social security. there needs to be more controls on banking and insurance companies need to be out of investing. >> guest: there are ideas how to separate investments. i am sympathetic to that and heard that story again and again. is not right what happened to a lot of working people who work hard and played by the rules. the big problem is we had a government system of housing

that melted our market and the way we try to redress this the longest term from monetary policies have blown up these equity markets after our e-mail are has gotten out of equity markets. ordinary people work really hard, they got their life-saving swiped out, no longer in equity markets and we built up the stock market again through free money and guess where the money goes? the top-10% lose somebody minute ago said 90% went to the top 1%. that is not right. 81% of wealth been since 2009 have gone to the top 10% of income distribution. this is during an economic regime from a president who promised that that wouldn't happen. what we have is the rich getting richer and the poor stagnant or getting poorer all the wicked 2009. we have become two americas web when america is in full bloom of recovery, 5% economic growth and the other side is zero economic

growth and wealth gains of come from policies that make the rich richer. that should outrage as. that is not right so we would have policies to do that. we need to fight back as conservatives and progressives and centrists to say what am i going to do to have policies that help people at the bottom soda and equal shot at the american dream? the inequality we talk about true in the discussions that elite government levels many qualities the enemy. opportunity inequality is the real problem, not income inequality. opportunity inequality is driven by the policies of the last six years. >> host: brendel in orlando yuan with "in depth". arthur brooks. >> caller: i and calling to talk about too big to fail and i will comment on this. i know of iceland is a small country but they did not put money into their banks and they

are arrested for rothschilds ended their corrupt government, why didn't we do something like that instead of giving money? they didn't forgive my second mortgage. my neighborhood is gone. when they lost their homes the banks get paid. >> guest: iceland, 250,000 people it was clear it was a shell economy. that an unstable speculative banking consistent. don't run your country like iceland did. if we had a country, we can crash like crazy in the united states and maintains the integrity. the problem is people like you and people in your neighborhood

got hurt a lot. when there is malpractice, when people are running of money they didn't turn people should be held accountable. i don't think there's any reason to think people should have special privileges because they are rich but a away i think just because you are not rich doesn't mean you shouldn't be held accountable. between 25% and 50% of people who lost their homes foreclose on their home voluntarily. think about this. this is from the university of chicago, voluntary foreclosure. a lot of people, millions of people walked away, turned their keys to the bank even though they pay their mortgage because they were upside down in their mortgage and it is not in interest to do so. all of us should regret rich people, middle class people and poor people according to the problems they made. >> host: let's hear from charlene, i'm amazed you see us

as comparable with the european social democracies. those countries have universal health care at lower cost, reasonable accommodation for working families small children, they test higher than as a all educational levels, have a better percentage of full-time jobs and decent benefits, the have a good business environment with smaller discrepancy between haves that have nots, how can you draw the conclusion which you did? >> guest: i recommend our e-mail move to europe. it sounds great, go do that and good luck finding a job and sitting in society, learning a language. the truth of the matter is in the united states we are the ones setting up the entrepreneurs from europe. there is natural entrepreneurial migration from young people looking for opportunities because the united states continues to reward people more. does your have certain advantages? for sure. i lived in europe for a long time and let me tell you, the

food is good, i prefer with respect to opportunity in the united states and people of voting with their feet and agree with me. i talked to my wife who is an immigrant, she lived in this country she spoke very little english, is she going to have opportunities? four job offers in her first four months. she said this is the greatest country in the world for people who want to work it was a profound moment for me. she worked for three years in a minimum wage job and we needed that work in neither of us thought was a dead end job and we are grateful for it. can we do better? for shore but don't give me your. >> he is an opera, social scientist, happiness expert and president of the american enterprise institute at our tour brooks, if you would like to

follow him. "who really cares: the surprising truth about compassionate conservatism" cannot in 2006, the next was "gross national happiness: why happiness matters for america--and how we can get more of it" which he says is his favorite of these policy books we have been discussing. "the battle: how the fight between big government and free enterprise will shape america's future" cannot in 2010. finally his most recent is "the road to freedom: how to win the fight for free enterprise". his newest book is coming out in september of 2015 the conservative hard. thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> the most memorable moment of the leak was on hearing senator corey gardner, you need to be firm in principles but flexible in details because it really reflects the solution, the harsh polarization we are seeing

across the country and a methodology that of all the senators, all the congressman and state legislatures, you can come together the country and solve the current issues. >> my favorite quote came from julie adams, secretary of the senate who says remember to be humble and have a strong work ethic. because the people you meet on the way up you will meet on the way back down. >> in particular in congress itself often times we had a lack of true statesman. as much as i disagree with him senator john mccain did something impressive last year, he committed to the veterans affairs reform bill, maintaining staying away from torture is essential to the character of our democracy. at the point we have people willing to cross the aisle, willing to make these decisions with people the and in often agree with is essentially what we need to match and in the security, the integrity of the nation as we go on.

>> high school students who generally ranked academically in the top 1% and the senate youth program, sunday night at 8:00 eastern and pacific on c-span q&a. >> next princeton university professor melissa lane as she talks about the greeks and romans and political ideas. this interview recorded on the campus of princeton university is part of booktv's college series. >> host: joining us on booktv is politics professor at princeton melissa lynn who has written a new book published by princeton called "the birth of politics: 8 greek and roman political ideas and why they matter". were the greeks and romans

successful politicians? >> guest: they were. the greeks managed in different city-state's to develop the world's first democracy. in athens they produced works of art, literature and great works of architecture and political institutions which remained fundamental to politics today and the romans for 500 years and that went down for another 500 years. depending on your measure of success they have a lot to offer. >> host: what were the similarities? >> guest: interesting question. really emphasized election and the fundamental role for the