ublican platform agreed to buy vice president nixon touched off a storm of controversy. mr. nixon is overwhelming position as a gop favorite was unshaken but interest was roused beyond early expectations. c-span: you see that i think what? >> guest: 1st of all, it all, it is a remarkable fact that as late as 1960 richard nixon, the overwhelming favorite, really unchallenged for the nomination nevertheless felt it was in his little interest in the middle of the night without telling anyone on his staff to fly to new york for a secret six or eight our meeting at nelson rockefeller's apartment 1st of all to try to persuade him to go on the ticket as vice president and when that failed to meet rockefeller's objections on the platform stronger civil rights plank. that was an issue that always mattered to his family and to

nelson. we can hopefully, talk about that later. and secondly he wanted a stronger military defense plank. he wanted the party, in effect, to repudiate dwight eisenhower eisenhower -- it was believed that nelson rockefeller and the wing of the party he represented had the clout to require this or at least to be taken seriously. we now know that by 1960 service that was probably not, not the case. it was a matter of perception. it was fed by what today we would call the mainstream media. c-span: and what did richard nixon and rockefeller think of each other? >> guest: it's a complex -- they respected each other as rivals.

there certainly were any number of occasions when i think each man tried the patience of the other. oddly enough, during the eisenhower administration they'd been allies. they were both in some ways -- well, there's a wonderful letter. rockefeller writes the day after the '56 election nelson writes, oddly enough to richard nixon. and he says thanks to you and the president, the republican party is emerging as the great liberal party of the future. and in light of everything we know since then, that seems an odd thing to say. except in 1956, you know people forget it wasn't barry goldwater that broke the solids out. it was dwight eisenhower. he carried almost 40% of the

african-american vote and a majority of southern electors. so because the party turned to goldwater and then in effect on to nixon and reagan and gingrich, because the party took that turn in 1964 doesn't mean that that had to be the history. it could have been a very different history. c-span: "on his own terms" is the title of the book. where'd you get that? >> guest: in 35 years of writing books, this is the first time i've gotten a title that i wanted. that's one thing that never changed. c-span: how old is he on the picture of the cover? >> guest: that would be in the early '60s so he would be in his mid '50s. "on his own terms" seemed to to me to sum up better than any other phrase nelson's approach to life, to politics, to women, to art. even arguably to death.

quick story behind that, goes to the heart of who he was. because it took me much of those 14 years to reach what i thought was an adequate understanding of this very elusive figure. he was incredibly close to his mother, abby aldridge rockefeller. and as i say she died in 1948. and i'd been told by someone close to him that he kept her ashes in the house. and happy rockefeller was kind enough to spend half a day with me and give me a tour both of the house, the big house and the house that he built for retirement nearby. and every rockefeller house is built on the same floor plan.

on the right is mother's room, and on the left is father's room. and sure enough many mother's room is a 15th century urn. and we were coming to the end of tour, and i thought, what have i got to live? and i realitied this story to mrs.-- related this story to mrs. rockefeller, and she said, oh, that's true. and i said, how could that be? there was a funeral x her ashes were interred. she said oh, nelson just reached in and grabbed a handful. now, i don't know many people who would do that, and it tells me two things, two sides of his character. one, there's an almost childlike impulsiveness. he was utterly unself-conscious which is, i think makes him unique among rockefellers and probably unusual among most of us. but it also made him an incredible campaigner, street-level campaigner. but the other thing that it also suggests is a sense of

entitlement that goes beyond the norm. how many of us would entertain for a moment the notion at such a time and place of possessing one's parent in that way. there's on his own terms. he believed he should have life and i believe death, on his own terms. c-span: who picked out all of the quotes at the head of each chapter? >> guest: i did. c-span: why did you start, and i'll read it with the prologue from murray kempton? >> guest: he was a highly respected journalist in new york. i guess you could say maybe a little left of center but of that generation. i mean, jimmy breslin i mean, first of all, new york was a newspaper town when nelson rockefeller went into politics in the 1950s.

i don't know how many papers there were. of course, most of them are gone. but, i mean, it was a newspaper town, and it generated great journalists who were, first of all, great reporters but secondly also in kempton's case, police call analysts. c-span: he's long gone. >> guest: yeah. c-span: it came down from rockefeller, those galleries a howl of hatred of a human being who embodied everything these people had hated for 20 years. he just stood there and began his prose in the armor of a magnificent contempt. who cares what he said; it was what he was that night. >> guest: yeah. c-span: what night? >> guest: july 14 1964. "the new york times" referred to it as bastille day in reverse. it was new york versus the rest of america.

not exactly a dispute that's gone away, i suppose. one that perhaps has been at least temporarily healed in the walk of 9/11. the fact -- in the wake of 9/11. the fact of the matter is the republican party, going back to 1912 when theodore roosevelt and william howard taft split it asunder and t.r. ran it a third party, progressive -- liberal we would call it -- republican campaign, throughout the 20th century there had been a divide. it was partly geographical,-more ideological, it was substantive. the conservatives in the midwest, for example tended to be isolationistses in terms of foreign -- isolationistses in terms of foreign policy. the eastern liberals the eastern establishment tended to be internationalists, much more willing to get into world war ii

before pearl harbor. they also, however, were divided about their reaction to the new deal. the eastern liberals were prepared to accommodate the changes, a much more active role for government. the conservatives west of the ap appalachias held out for a more hard shell view, if you will. now, the liberals believed -- and this is critical -- nelson rockefeller, again, as i say, had no ideology. he believed first and foremost that a problem should be taken care of through the private sector. if the private sector couldn't or wouldn't then let's look for partnership with government. the idea being the eastern establishment believed, first of all, you needed a strong robust growing, private

economy. whatever it took. and government could be an agent of that. that's an idea as old as alexander hamilton. but if you didn't have that strong robust private economy you couldn't pay for the compassion mate, you couldn't afford to do all of these social programs. so they put, they thought the horse before the cart. and they felt the new deal was acting in reverse. c-span: let's go to some video e from that convention in 1964 the year that they nominated barrly goldwater at -- barry goldwater at the republican convention. >> feed on fear, hate and terror. they encourage disunity. >> you control the audience. >> these are people who have nothing in common with american. the republican party must repudiate these people.

>> guest: extremism. [laughter] then as now, a topic much discussed. first of all, you have to have a little bit of context. that convention came one month after passage of the 1964 civil rights act which, it's important to note, was passed with republican votes in both houses, but critically in the senate. and a bill that nelson rockefeller strongly supported. in fact, he wanted to go further. he wanted a voting rights act at the same time which, of course would come about a year later. finish barry goldwater who it must be said had personally been a leader in desegregating not only his family's department store in phoenix, but the arizona national guard, nevertheless, goldwater was of that rugged individualist school

who feared federal coercion more than quite frankly, he championed the civil rights of african-americans. c-span: did we see hate right there? is that what we're seeing? >> guest: yeah. we saw a generation -- it was hike a volcano that had built up. like a volcano that had built up. everything about new york that you hated, everything about the eastern establishment media which exercised a much greater centralized, dominant position. there is -- earlier in the evening dwight eisenhower, by accident, he had no idea. this was 30 years before ike declares culture wars. he mentioned in a throwaway line "sensation-seeking columnists who couldn't care less about the good of our party," and the place explodes. and there was famously a

delegate, i think, in north dakota who stood up on a chair and yelled "down with walter whitman." a few hours later there are republican delegates on the floor with -- shouting at rockefeller, "you lousy lover." i mean, it was that intense. it was a culture war. c-span: what did that mean, by the way "you lousy lover"? >> guest: ing it was a reference that he had divorced his first wife and married a woman who in the popular press was portrayed as having, quote, abandoned her children in order to marry him. c-span: what were the suckers about the divorce -- the circumstances about the divorce can and the remarriage to happy rockefeller, and is what's her full name? >> guest: margaretafidler married to james murphy. exactly when the relationship began is murky. i believe it began earlier than

has been suggested until now -- c-span: what does that mean? >> guest: the mid 1950s. most accounts suggested the 1958 campaign when she worked in rockefeller's gubernatorial campaign. but in any event the marriage -- one of the things i discovered in the course of researching this book was that a year went by, i mean, between when nelson wanted to announce a divorce and the actual announcement. there were people around him who even then -- there were people in 1958 who had talked him out of getting a divorce before he ran for governor. they argued that this would kill your political career before it gets off the ground. he reluctantly went along. but it's very clear, certainly from then on, that left to his own devices, he intended to end

his marriage to todd and if at all possible marry happy murphy. and the circumstances were treated -- remember, this is taylor and burton. it's a different culture. and, you know hollywood adulterers, you know, 10,000 people turned out for the world premiere of cleopatra a month after the rockefeller/murphy marriage, you know? they were celebrated. but for a politician -- and that's actually, that's an important part of nelson's unwitting legacy. the fact of the matter is, um, really beginning with his divorce and remarriage and spectacularly advancing the suckers surrounding his death -- the circumstances surrounding his death, the media took a whole different approach to distinguishing what was public and what was private.

and we can argue over whether that has been good for democracy, but there's little doubt that he played a very significant role. today i don't think the circumstances surrounding his divorce and remarriage would have nearly as great an impact. but you have to remember the republican party, you know, in 1962 '63 '64 was also a culturally, probably more conservative than the rest of the country. jack kennedy great -- best line in the book i found in drew pearson's unpublished diary. he couldn't believe that rockefeller would risk everything by getting a divorce. he told kay graham no man would ever love love more than politics, which probably tells you more about him than anything else. but it does sum up the prevailing view. c-span: did you happen to ask

happy rockefeller when you were with her for that half a day anything about the personal relationship? >> guest: yeah, she talked very candidly about it. i remember telling her something that bill scranton had said to me -- c-span: who was bill scranton? >> guest: former governor of pennsylvania, recently deceasedment -- deceased. close to rockefeller personally politically. certainly because of his own main lane connections he knew both -- c-span: and ran for president. >> guest: and ran in '64. he liked them both. he thought todd was very intelligent, he liked her, but he always thought that she and nelson were mismatched. i said, what do you mean? he said, well, you have to understand, nelson was a man more than most who needed warmth. he said don't make the mistake of automatically equating that with sex. nelson needed warmth. and i've -- i understand exactly what he meant. and happy is a very warm woman.

happy could give him, really what todd couldn't. that's a factor. the thing about that whole relationship that i think this book really breaks ground, and it's only possible because of the passage of time, if you go back and you read coverage of the time and read coverage since, every single account of the rockefeller divorce and remarriage is couched in political terms. it's seen through the lens of what did this cost him, and why on earth, you know, did he take that risk? what no one has ever asked until now and, obviously, what i was interested in getting from happy rockefeller was forget politics for just a moment. what were the emotional compensations that nelson got that made him overlook whatever risks? she told me point black they never discuss can -- point-blank

they never discussed the political consequences. i believe her. she also told me something very -- [laughter] very poignant and shrewd at the same time. she went to new hampshire and campaigned in '64. she was in the early -- well no. in the not so early stages of a pregnancy. but she went to new hampshire and percent most part people were -- for the most part people were very friendly. there were people who were anything but friendly. and she was standing on a church, the steps of a church and these women come up and say, oh mrs. murphy, you haven't brought your children with you today which is about as nasty as you can get. and she said she learned something at that moment. she said whenever someone says something horrible to you you counter with a compliment. and she said, she said --

[laughter] my, that's a lovely dress you have on. and it disarms it maybe even shames -- that may be too much to hope for but it's an interesting observation. and it runs against the sort of popular notion that this was a woman who was, you know totally unversed in politics. nelson rockefeller had enormous faith in her judgment, in her view of the man of the street. and i still believe, although she downgrades her role in this, i think she was a pivotal part of his decision to move on the abortion issue. new york repealed its old abortion laws, and when the legislature two years later moved to repeal the repeal under pressure from the church he vetoed that action. and the supreme court in roe v. wade less than a year later used

some of nelson's same arguments in upholding a woman's right to choose. c-span: if i countered right -- counted right, he was married to happy rockefeller for half the time, 16 years, that he was married to todd. it was 32 years. how old would happy rockefeller be today? >> guest: happy would be 88. c-span: how many of all of his children are is still alive? >> guest: well, of course okay. he had five chirp by todd and -- five children by todd and two by happy. of those eight, six are is still living. the oldest son, rodman born in 1932 died several years ago. and then, of course many years ago there was a tragedy, almost greek tragedy. it was like three days after they announced that they were separating that the word came from today's indonesia that

michael rockefeller, the youngest son from his first marriage -- and the one everyone agrees to whom he was the closest and for whom he entertained the highest hopes -- was lost. c-span: how old was he? >> guest: michael would have been 22, 23. c-span: did anybody ever find out what happened to him? >> guest: no. and i think horrible as the experience was at the time, i think the family has been haunted to some degree exploited, but certainly haunted ever since by continual efforts to dredge this up to spin all sorts of horrific theories about how he may have died. c-span: you notice i haven't asked you about the last chapter yet. >> guest: i do notice. c-span: let's go to 1968 where he makes an announcement in 1968

for president. >> today i announce my act of candidacy for nomination by the republican party for the presidency of the united states. [applause] i shall do everything i can with all my energy now and in the weeks before the national convention to bring before the people the dimensions of the problems as i see them and how i believe as a free people we can meet them. i believe firmly that true unity is forged by full examination of the facts and the free

interchange of honest convictions. and, very simply by taking this course at this time, i feel i can best serve my country. [applause] c-span: now, this is off the subject right there but it's -- as i watched him reading, i go pack to the very -- go back to the very first thing you wrote, the very first two words in your book nelson rockefeller suffered from dyslexia. >> guest: that's right. by the way, he didn't know until he was 50 years old old. he went through his life of believing he had a low iq. that it was, in effect an intellectual deficiency. and so he took his mother's advice from a very early age which was always surround yourself with people who are smarter than you which helps to explain the task forces and the experts and the panoply of gurus who surrounded, who surrounded

rockefeller. he couldn't spell, he was not a natural speaker from a text, but he compensated. he learned to compensate. he was extraordinary off the cuff. he was really one of the great, as i say street campaigners of all time. but put him in front of an audience with a text, and '68 is fascinating because, of course one month before he got into the race he wanted everyone to believe he was going to get into the race and then stunned everyone by announcing he wasn't running. well, in between the number of things happened. lyndon johnson pulled out of the race, martin luther king was assassinated. and, by the way one of the things i discovered, he was very close to dr. king. he had, he had come to the rescue of king's birmingham crusade financially when they were running out of bail money for the kids who were

demonstrating in birmingham. and then, of course, tragically when dr. king was killed in april 1968 nelson called mrs. king and the follow-up was sent his advance men and organized and paid for dr. king's funeral. c-span: when was that first known? >> guest: he didn't want it known. he said to the advance men who i talked with that we don't want to take advantage of the family's suring. suffering. c-span: so when was it first published? >> guest: when he died. there was a little story to that effect. the full story only comes out now. but the other critical thing that happened between during that month was on april 23rd he was smuggled with happy into the johnson white house. i talked to the man who took him in and took him out -- c-span: who was that?

>> guest: larry temple, the head of the johnson foundation now. but young staffer then. and, of course, they wanted it all secret. lbj wanted nelson to run for president. they had a very interesting relationship. c-span: [inaudible] >> guest: well, no. he understood he wasn't going to change parties. now later on after the republican convention hubert humphrey approached rockefeller about being his vice president. he wanted humphrey wanted to run a national, in effect a coalition government, a unity campaign in that year when unity was hard to come by. c-span: by the way in your book you use a quote from lyndon johnson at the head of one of the chapters. you say rockefeller's wife ain't gonna let him get off the ground. that's from '64. >> guest: yeah. well, that was lbj's considered assessment of the political realities of the time. by the way, one thing that -- because it's so funny, people

always look for contemporary connections. and, you know, remember the mississippi republican race we just went through where senator cochran won improbably with the support of african-american voters who had reregistered. the great climactic epic battle of the '64 campaign was goldwater versus rockefeller one on one in california. which in those days believe it or not, there was a poll that showed 70% of california republicans considered themselves moderates or liberals. but in any event, it was the primary campaign to end all primary campaigns. and goldwater was way ahead. and stu spencer, the great political strategist from several campaigns including ronald reagan's told me what almost turned it around were african-american voters mostly in los angeles. 55,000 of whom re-registered as republicans so they could vote

in the republican primary more nelson rockefeller. that was indicative of the appeal that rockefeller had to minority americans. c-span: over for him in '68? as a candidate? >> guest: it really was. c-span: when was it? >> guest: oh, i'm sorry, when? well, the fact is when he pulled out in march, he got back in a month later. the problem was very simply, very quickly twofold. one, it was a conservative party that was moving further and further to the right. they were simply uncomfortable with nelson rockefeller's positions. secondly though was rockefeller's own failure to understand the difference between running for the nomination and running in the fall. he always -- every time he ran for president he ran a november campaign. he ran a campaign reaching out to the general electorate. but it's not the general electorate, it's delegates who

select a nominee. and the great line had -- he had an ironic sense of humor which he, for the most part, managed to control. but he couldn't resist. someone asked him at the end of '68 after nixon was nominated, that night he had a press conference, and there was a young reporter who citing his resumé and everything else said you know, why haven't you been nominated for president given all of this your qualifications? and rockefeller looked at him, he said, young man have you ever been to a republican national convention? it was like a question that answered itself. c-span: did you ever meet him? >> guest: i met them -- him three times in passing twice during the '68 campaign at campaign events, and then seven years later when i was an intern in the ford white house, i met the then-vice president. we had a 45 minute meeting with him. and i noticed how much older he looked. he was one of these people if

you look at pictures, certainly e when he first ran for governor he looks very youthful. he looks a lot younger than 50, which is what he was in 1958. and then about '68 age really began to catch up with him, which is one reason why i think the later years were increasingly difficult. c-span: at the end of his life, how much money was he worth? >> guest: the estate was valued for taxation purposes i guess at something around 215 $220 million. c-span: how much of that did he earn himself? [laughter] >> guest: the bulk of it was in trusts $116 million in trusts from his father and grandfather. he -- the only time in his life he made money, oddly enough, was at the end of his life in an art reproduction business which

horrified purists but which showed real promise. he started what's called the nelson rockefeller collection at a storefront in midtown manhattan and was selling reproductions of paintings and furniture and other objects d' art that he owned. c-span: you mentioned civil rights and 1971, we've got some video and conversation between melson rockefeller -- nelson rockefeller and richard nixon but i've heard you say in the last 14 years that your attica chapter is maybe your best. >> guest: well, you know, it's the one i think i'm proudest of. because -- excuse me -- i think it's first time, first of all, i had the benefit of perspective. forty or years have gone by. we know things we didn't know.

it's a different culture. for example -- c-span: for example before you get there attica is what? >> guest: attica is a correctional facility in upstate new york east of rochester and buffalo which, like every other place in new york and indeed throughout the country was overcrowded, disproportionately populated by african-americans, underfunded -- c-span: and he's governor. >> guest: he's governor. interestingly enough, he had brought in a man named russ oswald to run a new department the of contractions -- department of corrections. the idea being to begin to reform this antiquated system. but in 1971 new york state also was many a severe budget crunch. and the two priorities collided. but it's hard to make people 40 years later understand immerse

themselves in the culture of 1971. not only the prison culture, not only the very real sense of grievance felt by prisoners and particularly african-americans about the justice system in its entirety but also a culture in which once the takeover occurred in september 1971, part of this was just fate. rockefeller was out of state. he was in washington d.c. he was not part of that unfolding process as it took place the first day of the takeover. the critical decision that was not made the critical decision that russ oswald, in effect prevented from being made was using force at the time to

immediately retake the prison. the fact is there was precedent for this in new york state. herr berth lehman -- herr berth lehman was faced with an identical situation in a prison takeover, and he took the stance that rockefeller took but the state would not negotiate and eventually sent troops in and was acclaimed for it. c-span: how many hostages were there? >> guest: hundreds. and -- well no, i'm sorry. there were hundreds of prisoners involved, over a thousand prisoners involved, there were 43 who i died in the retaking of the prison -- c-span: who retook it? >> guest: -- and 11 of those were security guards, the rest were prisoners. c-span: but who retook it? what kind of force? >> guest: let me just back up a bit because the criticism of rockefeller is directed twofold.

the takeover, which was badly botched, and the argument was always made if rockefeller had been there if he had gone there, if he'd been on the scene, at the very least he could have prevented things. ien mean, he had representatives -- i mean, he had representatives who were there who were feeding him information and so on. the negotiations involved a number of outside, quote observers. today it wouldn't happen. you wouldn't invite in people like william gunsler who clearly had a political agenda of his own to be a, quote outside observer. c-span: very liberal activist -- >> guest: yeah, absolutely. radical. proud of it. radical lawyer sort of in the clarence darrow tradition. -- clarence darrow tradition. you would not invite tv cams

rahs in -- cameras in to on to receiver all of this. i mean, it was just, you know, there were any number of judgmental errors that were made. strategically, i think a strong case can be made that had there been force applied initially -- because part of, a part of the prison was retaken. but oswald believed oswald was a modernizer. he was a good guy, he thought he was a liberal, and he could negotiate. and it turned out he couldn't negotiate. c-span: let's listen to a little bit of this conversation between richard nixon who was in the white house 1971 -- >> guest: yeah. c-span: -- and governor nelson rockefeller. >> guest: but the courage you showed in not granting amnesty, it was right, and i don't care what the hell the papers or anybody else says. i don't care what they say, i think you had to do it that way. because if you'd have granted amnesty in this case, it would have meant you would have had prisons in an uproar all over

the country. >> that's right. >> it's a tragedy that these fellas were so shot, but i just want to tell you, you made the right decision. >> el well, thank you, mr. president. i only called you because i wanted to alert you we were going in, and when we went in, we couldn't tell whether all 39 hostages would be killed and maybe 2 300 prisoners. the whole thing was led by blacks? >> i'll be darn asked, were all the prisoners blacks? >> i haven't gotten that report, but i would have to say yes. we did it, though, only when they were in the process of murdering the guards or when they were attacking our people as they came in to get the guards. >> had to do it. >> and otherwise we would have recaptured without shooting a shot, and no troop ors were wounded. one of them -- well, one of them was in the leg.

c-span: what are you hearing? >> guest: in some ways it's rockefeller at his worst. he's doing what lots of people do, which is telling the president what he thinks he wants to hear. back up just a bit. am necessity, that he -- amnesty, that he talked about. and that became, in many ways the issue around which this revolved. the prisoners who had taken over the facility submitted a list of demands, various lists of demands. they included, among other things, the right to fly to a nonimperialist country. and am he'sty. amnesty. the latter was pretty quickly dismissed. but many of the demands by the way, were met, were prepared -- the observers got together spent a day, and they went through the list and most of the prisoner demands -- which by the way, were perfectly legitimate, i mean one of the problems with looking at attica

is more most people then and -- for most people then and now it was the first time they were really exposed to just how horrible conditions were in those facilities. and then people conflated the horror of the facility with rockefeller's refusal to go and then the botched retaking. what they overlooked was the matter -- to rockefeller the matter of principle which was amnesty. if you granted amnesty he believed -- or, for example, if he, the governor of new york, went to the prison, the first thing is they would demand that he come into the cell block, into the yard with them. and then you'd be asking for the president, and what were the long-term consequences if government gave in? c-span: you notice we still haven't talked about the haas chapter. [laughter] -- the last chapter. [laughter] we are going to.

first of all, there's some video we found that shows how the rockefeller name lives on, and this has to do with some hip-hop artists. [laughter] >> my mom went to prison in 1991. my mother 1991. somehow my mama ends up serving a mandatory minimum sentence of 14 years. my mom gets out in 2002. that's 11 years on a 14-year sentence. that happened all across the hood. >> the rockefeller truck laws are unjust laws that have been on the books for over 30 years. those laws take a nonviolent, first-time offender and lock them up for a very long time. there are many people who are innocent of any real crime, just guilty of abusing themselves. those people sometimes go to jail for up to 20 years. c-span: the rockefeller drug

laws. >> guest: right. and there's no doubt that's part of the legacy. what you have to understand is, put it in the context, this is the dark side, if you will of rockefeller's conviction that every problem had a solution. and that included drugs. he told a friend one day before these laws were introduced, you know i wasted a billion dollars trying to eliminate the drug courage. there -- drug scourge. there had been two separate rockefeller programs to attack drugs. both of them failing. and so on the thursday -- on the third try he took this punitive approach. people gasped at the time. this sweeping, as you heard, i mean first-tomb offenders typically were sent up for 15 years and law enforcement was all but precluded from plea

bargaining. so it was a drastic approach to a problem that appeared to be insoluble. the interesting thing is, i was talking to lawrence rockefeller the governor's brother, before his death. and lawrence believed -- and i think there's truth to this -- if nelson had served a fifth term realizing that the third drug program had failed there would have been a fourth. he -- call it a strength, call it a weakness, he was incapable of acknowledging that there were problems that could not be solved. or that he, that sometimes the only rational response was to do nothing. that budget -- that wasn't in his vocabulary.

c-span: looking at chapter 26 -- >> guest: yes. c-span: the head of the chapter, the title of the chapter is "the day of the dead." >> guest: yeah -- c-span: we've talked about this a lot, but how important is this chapter to this book based on what people expect? >> guest: well, it's important in the sense that i know there are people who will look at it first whether out of -- [inaudible] there are people who will look at it to decide whether or not i'm honest, you know? whether this is a book that stands the test of historical on the -- historical on jobbingtivity. c-span: why? >> guest: well, whether i'm part of the cover-up in effect. i came to the conclusion that nelson -- historically significant aspect of nelson rockefeller's death really is the cover-up. that have improvised -- that was improvised that night by a man

named hugh morrow who was rockefeller's communications direct canner who thought at the time that he would protect the family from embarrassing revelations regarding the fact that rockefeller at the time of his death was with a woman not his wife. what morrow did, of course unintentionally and with the best of intentions produced the worst of results. this is a post-watergate world, and there are first rate reporters, people like jimmy breslin and anna quinn lin and bob mcfadden who are out there investigating the discrepancies. and cracks appear. and morrow is forced to back off. and unfortunately it -- for a generation of americans sadly i think, it defineed nelson

rockefeller. i had the advantage of again, time. 30-plus years. i had the opportunity to talk to a number of people who were more candid than they had been in the past. but i also had the opportunity for example, i went through joe persico, he wrote a memory, he was a speech writer for rockefeller, recently deceased. wonderful man and a great great writer a great scholar on world war ii, for example. anyway, joe persico in his memoir -- which was published just after all of this -- clearly pulled his punches. and i think appropriately so. i mean, there are questions of taste and loyalty. he'd been, you know part of the rockefeller inner circle. but anyway i had an opportunity to go through all of joe's notes. and i wasn't interested in peeping through the key hole

either. there's one historically significant question that these to be answered did nelson rock fell orer die needlessly that night? could he will be saved? and i came to the conclusion, first of all what people don't know is that rockefeller was dying. he had very serious heart problems. he knew he was dying. he had acknowledged as much to members of his family days before he died. it's entirely possible he would have died that night wherever he was. c-span: so where was he? >> guest: he worked that day he had been putting his house in order in any number of ways. he was working on a series of art books, one of which was about to be published. late in the around he left room

5600 which is the rockefeller office at the then-rca building. went to the buckley school for a fundraiser to be addressed by henry kissinger. his sons both attended the buckley school. i talked to people who were there who noticed how gray he seemed and, in fact, you know he only drank due bonn nay -- dubonnay, and he asked for something stronger. he was clearly, he was clearly not well. anyway he went home, had dinner. i talked to mrs. rockefeller it must have been difficult for her to relive that evening but her view was he didn't want to die in front of his boys. he didn't want to drop dead at the apartment. now, you have to remember his mother had died of a massive heart attack falling on a

perfect weekend with her family. and nelson foresaw the same. nelson that's the death he wanted. enwhen i say death on -- when i say death on his own terms. she heard him pick up the phone and call megan marshack who had been working as head of a team on this series of books and who was -- c-span: how old was she? >> guest: megan was 25 at the time. she lived in an apartment three doors down 54th street from the rockefeller townhouses. there are twin townhouses at 13 and 15 west 54th. so anyway that's where according to the story, they

met, were working on this book. he had a heart attack, died instantly. it was reported that the police found him on the floor fully clothed, papers -- i mean all of the piece, that was the story that was given out to the press. hugh morrow, for reasons that we've discussed, said that he was -- c-span: his press spokesman. >> guest: his press spokesman. said he was stricken at 5600. for whatever reason, claimed that he had no history of heart disease which is simply wrong. and, of course, literally there were press going to the rca building expecting a body to be brought down.

and anyway, the thing, the whole thing unraveled over the weekend. the importance of that 35 years later is this: that night, in my opinion, marked a transformation as great as the second night in the palace marked a travis formation -- transformation only this time instead of a political party it was the way journalists covered quote, the private lives of politicians. you can draw a line from january 26 1979, to gary hart and the monkey business and on jim mcgreevey and anthony weiner and, you know you name it. i believe that beginning with "the new york times" -- and it's important to know why the times did what they did -- i

interviewed someone at the times who shall remain nameless, but someone -- al marshall -- who had been close to rockefeller who told me he had a call from the the times who said look you people have never lied to us before. you may have spun things but you've never lied. we are sufficiently outraged that we have five reporters working this story and we're subjecting the 911 call to electronic analysis. and armed with that information and one other piece of information that i got from a confidential source suggesting that, you know, there was this missing hour between when the call was supposedly made and then when the story was put out -- c-span: this was in january of 1979. >> guest: january of 1979 and the whole story sort of revolves around what happened during that hour. and it was strongly intimated to me that the call, the 911 call,

it turned out was not made by megan marshack, but was made by a second woman who lived in megan's building a very prominent journalist -- c-span: did you talk to her? >> guest: i asked to talk to her, and she declined. c-span: did you talk to megan? >> guest: she also -- she didn't respond. those are really the only two people. i did 150 interviews, and those are really the only two people who i asked to speak to who declined. c-span: you say there were three people that actually saw the body. >> guest: the third person by his own acknowledgment, was a man named joe. finish he was the uber advance man, the ultimate fixer. he ran -- [inaudible] for nelson. very competent man. his code name was little caesar. and he could be trusted to take care of anything.

he told me in an interview before his death that he was one of three people who knew what happened that night. he wouldn't go into detail, but he dropped clues. i subsequently learned from friends of his that the story he had told over the years was, in fact, not true. in fact he told people, close friends in later years, that he himself had actually gone to 54th street as part of a kind of an emergency effort to clean up the scene and to redress the body. c-span: the body, you say was without clothes. >> guest: that's what i was told by the paramedic who was first on the scene. and here is the discrepancy -- c-span: and by the way, you name him, jim -- >> guest: jim peturus. c-span: still alive today. >> guest: absolutely. had a distinguished career this medicine and associated with

yale. c-span: was he there and one of the first other than those three -- >> guest: yeah. and here's the remaining if you will mystery. because there's a clear discrepancy between his account of what he found which i find completely credible, and the original story put out by the police. and the missing link just may be one other source who indicated there was a man, unfortunately deceased history professor named trumble higgins. lifelong new yorker, who taught a class at john jay college criminal justice, in new york. and one night two members of his class, two cops, offered him a ride home. and as they approached west 54th street, they began reminiscing about that night and suggesting that, in fact, they were called

not to 13 west 54th street, but to 25 west 54th street and that, in fact, the former vice president's remains were moved from 25 to 13. i don't know if that's true. i think it fits. but my approach to this is as a cold case. i think the historical significance, as i say, lies in the fact that based on what i've learned that us to have call question that i mentioned earlier, i believe nelson rockefeller died instantly. i don't believe he could have been save is -- saved. i don't think anyone was responsible that a evening willfully or be neglect for his death.

and then the really only other historical significance and it's lasting is its impact upon journalism. c-span: you quote happy rockefeller in the book heading up one of the sections: once a small creature came into my world. he took the largest fortune in the world and decided to enjoy it. >> guest: yeah. [laughter] c-span: did she say that to you? >> guest: yeah, she did. she did. she's -- i understood, by the way, just in the course of the time i spent with her, much of what nelson founder recyst bl -- irresistible in this woman. including a kind of wisdom, you know? i'd point out she didn't go to college like lots of women of her class at that time. but she's a lifelong reader voracious reader especially of history and literature.

but beyond that there's the street smarts. there's an instinctive grasp of human motive, and you can understand why among other things nelson relied on her judgment of people. c-span: this book is 14 years in the making it's "on his own terms," is the title. and i want to, if you have something final to say, you certainly can but i want to finish this by showing a video clip of your first appearance on this network. because you've had a tremendous impact on this network and for the public on history as you've helped guide us through these years. here you are and, again let me mention it's "on his own terms: the life of nelson rockefeller," richard norton smith. i do have to ask you you're on to a new city.

>> guest: i am.

congress is in its second week at recess. coming up on c-span2, we will bring you conversations with authors from our "after words" series. we will start with journalist april ryan's book "the presidency in black and white."

april ryan recounts are over 25 year career in journalism and the presidential administration the presidential administration she is covered. she's interviewed by ann compton whitehorse correspondent for abc news. this is about one hour. >> host: april ryan i don't think anyone, any african-american reporter has covered the white house as long as you have and now you have taken the clinton bush 43 and obama years and written about them through the prism of something that's important to your listeners on american urban radio networks.

john kennedy. john kennedy and martin luther king. >> this was growing up in baltimore.

>> host: what was it? did they kind of resent this newcomer? >> guest: they did resent this newcomer. he was an enigma really. he was someone who had tried unsuccessfully for a congressional seat against one of their fellow members, and they're very loyal to one another in that group. because they are a small group on the hill and they're very loyal to one another, so that was one strike against him. the second strike was he was a senator. he was a black senator, something that really rarely happens in this country. and he also was on a different

schedule than the house. the senate and the house weren on different schedules. so when the congressional black caucus, which is mostly house members, would meet, it was not on his time. so he would kind of ask if he could be placed in the front of the meeting to deliver his statements about what was going on in the senate, and many times they ignored him. and he was left to leave the meeting without presenting anything. and it was a lot of hard feelings there. >> host: do you think that talking about your time covering the white house, can you talk a little bit about how you explain in the book how you were treated as not only as an african-american or as a black reporter, but you were a woman reporter. there were still not a lot of women in the press corps. let's start with those that first year when bill clinton's second term and you arrive at the white house to cover they're

sitting in the briefing room every single day. >> guest: it was kind of rough because i replaced a gentleman who was iconic there. he was actually the first african-american to become the president of the white house press corps bob ellison the late bob ellison whose shoes were so hard to fill. and when i came to the white house, many people resented the fact that it wasn't bob there anymore. and i can understand that because he had toured with so many of the veterans there. but also i think coming in and really pressing on urban and african-american issues which really wasn't done that much as much as i had, it rubbed people the wrong way because that wasn't on the agenda on a consistent basis, on a daily basis. and many people were wondering is she mill p about the, who is she, what is she? you know we haven't seen her around washington, so she's a strange kid, you know? [laughter] who is she? and i got a little bit of that,

and i got a lot of pushbackment pushbackment -- pushback. by me being such a new by, coming straight out of baltimore, really, there was a lot of pushback, and people were wondering, wait a minute how is she getting these interviews with president clinton, how is she getting this and is she's not in the pool? i got a lot of pushback for hit. >> host: let's break it down into three categories because you write about not only your interactions with other reporters and your interactions with presidents but, of course press secretaries too. talk about a couple of those moments. start under the bush administration. tony snow was a new, the new press secretary. what happened with the tarbaby comment? >> guest: oh, my gosh, the first day, the first day he came into the the press briefing, he was a rock star in chief when he came in. so many people were in that

room i couldn't even get in my seat. and typically when you're in the white house, in the briefing area you're downstairs doing your work or upstairs doing your work, and then you have your designated seat, and you feel comfortable that okay i can ate wait until the last minute two minute warning and get my seat. well, that wasn't the case. to my surprise, when i came upstairs, every seat was taken. it was standing room only. so i was on the right side of the briefing room against the wall, and there was a question posed to him by abc's martha raddatz, and he was explaining what was going on, and then he said i'm not going to hold or touch that tarbaby. and i kind can of sleeked -- kind of shrieked because that is something -- >> host: that phrase. >> guest: that phrase was or very sensitive racially insensitive. >> host: it's from an old brer rabbit -- >> guest: brer rabbit, yes. and i actually have that book

just to will be that this is what used to be, but it should not be. and i couldn't believe it. and when you think of a tarbaby, you think of the tar that the rabbit put together so the fox wouldn't find the rabbit. and i said okay. so then unfortunately, there was a reporter that was standing in front of me who turned to to me and told me, shut up, you tarbaby. and i couldn't believe it. so after that press briefing that first press briefing, i marched myself up to tony snow's office, and he apologized. and from that moment on we struck up a really good relationship. he really apologized for his insensitivity. he didn't realize how insensitive it was and what it would spur. and to the credit of the white house correspondents' association, i talked to mark smith who was the president to at the time, and he addressed the issue. and then i got an apology. but people really don't understand --

>> host: got an apology -- >> guest: from the reporter who did that. and people really don't understand how much what you say at that podium whatever happens at that podium reverberates. there are so many ripples that go beyond that room. it really affected me that day. >> host: the press briefing, you and i have covered the white house together for many years. >> guest: yes. >> host: i was with abc. and the press briefings were off camera largely up until about the time you came. mike mccurry was the second term clinton press secretary and agreed to do it on camera, something i quote him as now regretting -- >> guest: yes. >> host: and i p tend to agree with mike that the press briefings are supposed to be the raw ingredients of news, they aren't supposed to be an event themselves. but you had a dust-up -- well that's probably not the right word -- which struck me because i was there for it. not just because -- not because you were an african-american reporter, but maybe because you were a woman and that was with

robert gibbs. >> guest: yes. i think you might be right about the woman issue, the gender. it could be a little bit of race, and it could be also i think, because i'm specialty media, you know? >> host: get to the specialty media in a second. tell us what happened -- >> guest: it comes with this. the issue is that i am not a part of the mainstream, i'm not a part of the illustrious first and second row. i'm specialty media that focuses on urban america, so how dare she. that's the way i felt at that time, how dare she ask these questions? they were relevant questions. they were questions i was hearing from my sources inside and from outside of the white house. it was not a personality issue it was a real issue. but, unfortunately, what the cameras saw was the last day. they didn't really what people weren't watching was the last day. they didn't see the culmination of the two days that crescendoed into that moment.

>> host: this is after a couple apparently crashed the first obama state dinner. >> guest: yes. >> host: and the white house social secretary who's an african-american woman from chicago, friend of theirs, was taking the heat for dropping the ball on this. and you asked robert gibbs specifically about her role. but what, what was it he said to you? >> guest: he said something to the effect of -- i kept asking i was on a roll with questions to the extent of, calm down. i tell that to my son. and to equate me a grown woman who has children herself, to a child and there's nothing wrong with his son, but to equate me to a child, it was disrespectful. and he was angry at the time. and for people the believe that there's not retaliation when you ask the white house certain questions, it doesn't have to be this white house, it could be any white house, there is retaliation. and the retaliation was seep on television. part of the retaliation was seen on television.

and then afterwards, you know, i was fuming that day. i sat in my seat. i'll never forget once it was over i couldn't believe it. and at that time i was sitting on the fourth row on the end seat. and i couldn't believe what had happened. i just sat there. the next thing you know i see the doors to the lower press office open, and it was bill burton. >> host: former gibbs' deputy. >> guest: yes. robert gibbs' deputy press secretary. and he said, come here. i was like, no. and he was shocked. unfortunately, i'm kind -- [laughter] as you know. i said, okay i'm coming. i just couldn't believe it. i'm like, what did i do wrong? i asked legitimate questions. and what happened was in my mind -- and robert gibbs and i have we've come to a good understanding, we have a decent relationship now -- but to my understanding, there was loyalty there. now, the obama administration was new, and they supported one another. and deathsly rogers and her --

dezly rogers and her family really supported this president, and they were loyal to this woman. there was a faux pas that caused a security breach at the white house. >> host: did you go up and see robert gibbs at that point? >> guest: i did. i did. and it was, it was a bad scene. there were other people, there was other -- there were other people in the room and i just, i remember gibbs telling me i owed the first lady an apology, and i owed desri rogers an apology. >> guest: i'm saying to myself, what did i do to deserve this craziness? sometimes it's rough and tumble there, and when you are someone that they perceive by yourself because i don't have the backing

of, i don't have a lot of of the folks on the specialty issue to have my back to follow up on questions. so it felt like i was alone but to my surprise many of my correspondents, they were really supportive of me for the fact of saying that should not have happened that way.

>> guest: ing i also questioned on other issues as well, mainstream issues. of. >> host: how did you deal with that second group? we've talked about press secretaries, your white house press colleague, and i for years sat right down the row there you at abc and you write about asking a question at your first presidential news conference and you said that after you asked that question, you were treated like media slime. >> guest: media slime. >> host: what happened? >> guest: noses were turned. i mean, this is a rough and

tumble business and we are happy for one another but it's like why not me? why not me? why didn't i get the question in and that's what -- >> host: they're asking why they didn't get -- >> guest: yes. i mean i've heard the last couple of times i've gotten question from the president at the press conferences the last one at the end of the year and the one around summertime about africa. people are like, how did she get that? why not? you get questions all the time. i very seldom get to ask ask questions in press conferences as much as others. but, you know, we are a group that finish we're a hypersensitive group, and we all want to have that moment where we get that question. we want that question. how does she get it? she's always getting it. so i think some of that was the problem, but also i was new. i was brand spanking new. and i worked hard -- >> host: yeah, how did you get a question being brand new? [laughter] >> guest: well, at time when i first came to the white house, it was more open than it is now.

and you were there when it was much more open than what it is now. >> host: open in what sense? >> guest: we could walk around more, you would run into the presidents more. i mean i was literally coming in from outside, and i had my coat on, and i walked into lower press, and there was -- at that time i don't think there was a door. >> host: this was the staff area. >> guest: staff area yes. i don't think that there was a door at the time that you could see people walking back and forth. so i just happened to be standing there and i asked if i could go to upper press -- >> host: which is the press secretary's office, up a short hallway just outside the oval office. >> guest: just outside the oval office, yes. so i was headed to upper press to see the press secretary who happened to be at the time mike mccurry, and the secret service said you've got to go back, i said they just told me to come up. not understanding what was going on. [laughter] my first encounter.

so all of a sudden walking down the hall with a pretzel soft sour dough pretzel was president bill clinton. so he didn't know who i was at the time. i guess he thought i was a staffer or something and he was talking -- he just stopped in the hallway, and i'm standing there looking at him at the bottom of the step and aisle like okay, he's talking to the staff in the lower press area, and i introduced myself. i got myself together, and i introduced myself. and i said please call on me, sir. >> host: call on you -- >> guest: at a press conference. and he said okay okay. so there was a press conference that immediately followed, and he didn't. but the next one he did. and i really, i said, well maybe it did work, just saying hello to him. and i said mike mccurry, thank you. and i sent a note -- >> host: sent a note to finish. >> guest: sent a note to mike mccurry to tell the president thank you. and the president wrote me back on white house letterhead, and that's all she wrote.

[laughter] >> host: that's a good one writing a thank you note to the president for getting a question in and getting a letter back. >> guest: just common humanity. >> host: how -- in news conferences you talk about that first question when you called yourself or considered yourself media slime. was it the content of your question, or what was it that you felt and were reporters hostile to you? >> guest: i don't think, i don't think it's content of the question. i just think immediate cra slime, a friendly adversarial relationship in that building, and the american public, to some extempt, they don't like us -- extent, they don't like us, and others do. so when we get classified negatives, i say we're media slime. but it might have been for others that they didn't like that question. they may not have. but that was not for them to say because, once again, specialty media, we're there focusing on one thing, and you may be focusing on another. and that's the greatness of having a group of people many that room. they can ask different

questions. it should be moved around where they can ask different questions versus staying on the same subject -- >> host: at the daily briefings. >> guest: daily briefings and the press conferences. because there's more going on in the world than just one thing. >> host: met me ask you about a -- let me ask you about a bush 43, george w. bush when he had a foreign visitor and you were seated not with the press corps? >> guest: i was not. >> host: where were you seated? >> guest: i was seated with the african delegation. and i found that very interesting. >> host: why? >> guest: it was a faux pas on their part -- >> host: on the part of -- >> guest: the white house. i was told after the fact that i should have been grateful. yeah. because i was in a seat to possibly be called on. and i really don't think -- >> host: but you were sitting with other black reporters? >> guest: i was sitting with african reporters yeah. i have no problem with that, but i am a white house correspondent. i'm an american journalist. and even -- it was so odd.

i was placed here. president bush even noticed. during the news conference he said why are you sitting over there, are you trying to get a question in and i said i was placed here. he kept -- can he at least acknowledged it at least three times during the press conference. and he even tried to point me out so that the president african president would at least call on me. [laughter] and even andy card, the chief of staff at the time after that said it was a bad move. it was a bad move. >> host: do you think presidents regarded you differently than other reporters because you were black, because you represented a specific specialty media? because you were a woman? did it some ways work to your advantage? >> guest: i believe, yes it did work to my advantage but also it worked to my disadvantage

because president clinton even told me this sometimes he didn't want to call on me because they didn't know what to expect there me. with other people they kind of knew the current events or what was going on, but they didn't know what to expect from me. so many times i wouldn't get called on. i figured if president clinton told me that, that's kind of a thought going down the line. and this was told to me during his time in office. so it worked to my advantage when they wanted to talk to the community, to the black community or urban commitment but it worked to my disadvantage because they didn't call on me for much because they didn't know where i was coming from. it's an interesting dynamic, double-edged sword. >> host: in the book you write extensively about to put today's presidents in an historical perspective of where race relations have come in the united states, and you make clear that there's still a ways

to go. selma, december 19 1964, this is before either of us were covering the white house the civil rights act has become law, and now the focus is turning to the voting rights act. >> guest: yes. >> host: and martin luther king jr. is in the white house urging president lyndon johnson to move on it. >> guest: yes. >> host: now, the film "selma," that has come out has been criticized by some for putting lyndon johnson in a very bad light. you write about your conversation with the other person who was in the room -- >> guest: yes. >> host: finish at that moment. tell us about that. >> guest: in the book "in black and white," i have an, collusive interview on -- exclusive interview on the record with ambassador andy young who was in the room with dr. king who talked to to lbj. andrew young was not only a prominent figure in the civil rights community but a former

congressman from georgia. >> guest: yes. >> host: a former u.n. ambassador. >> guest: yes. >> host: and someone who worked for, at that point was a relatively low-level white house staffer. >> guest: he's a very credible person. more than credible. he was in the room. and this is what i don't understand with all the -- there's a piece of it i don't understand about all of this back and forth about lbj and selma. andy young says in this book that lbj did say that he didn't have the power to to push it forward. we're talking about the voting rights of 1964 after they successfully got the civil rights act. so, and reverend jesse jackson said -- and this is something very interesting -- he said people like dr. king as a martyr but not a marcher. so strategically strategically these civil rights leaders had

to figure out how to give him the power. so they worked it out, there were tactics. they had to work strategically to work to get the power for this president. what was that? to go down to alabama. and andy young talked about in the book specifically for this book "in black and white," how three african-americans in alabama could not be on the street together. it was against the laws there for three people to be in the street together in alabama. >> host: because that would lead, could be considered leading to a protest or demonstration. >> guest: yes. so they had to find a way to have a meeting to given the process for the marches. they met with boundton and they worked through it and had to strategically figure out how to present the situation so that lbj could have the power to push through the voting rights act. so this is actually someone who was in the room with dr. martinnen luther king -- martin luther king also reverend jesse jackson who was

one of his lieutenants on the record, in the book, talking about this. >> host: there are audio recordings -- >> guest: yes. >> host: former secretary joseph carafano used the transcripts held at the miller center down at the university of virginia. so this should be a pretty well documented fact. are you surprised at the kind of reaction that the movie has brought? is it progress to finally have a movie that has turned out to be a commercial success? about the life of dr. martin luther king? >> guest: well, i think the movie was magnificent. and when i say magnificent i mean it brought me to tears. i felt like i was in the black church somewhere. it was an amazing movie to see i mean, when you saw -- i knew when i saw the four little girls, i knew what was going to happen. brought tears to my eyes and just talking about it brings

tears to my eyes.

secretary of state, did she state, did she also feels she had a race portfolio? >> guest: secretary rice is in this book on the record and i think her for her truth. she said that she was there and brought to the table what needed to be brought to the table. >> host: what did she tell them? >> guest: when it was time to have anniversary events, she would tell them they must have it. her father could not vote until 1952.

>> host: she could cannot go to a restaurant until 1964. if it were not for this act no, we have to stop and celebrate. there was another controversial piece. the very beginning of the bush years there was president bush had decided to write a history. and he said it was about the university of michigan. >> host: affirmative-action. >> guest: yes, he did not want preferential treatment in the admission process. so condoleezza rice at the time national security adviser said to him, there needs to be talk.