>> a1 some data looks like he has set up for them. the degree to which primary voters on both sides are

motivated by resentment and they feel they are put upon and there really don't understand us. here is the guy who will stick it to them. when hillary clinton gave her own version and i don't think that was true 30 years ago. it has always been a part of politics but to the degree it is almost exclusively a motivating factor

>> host: bill. good to see you burgle we will talk about your book "going to pot" but first we should have the full disclosure that we know each other. longtime acquaintance says sen friends. you must have been awake for quite a while? [laughter] >> guest: i have has and caffeine but no drugs. >> host: i'm glad you got that out there because it is situations like this i will make a lot of plot jokes. >> guest: i have a couple. >> host: very enough probable trying to hold back and tell their tasteful. but this show is from authors and not interviewers it gives the author a chance

to is to the questions would assure book about? >> guest: i co-authored with robert white to is a meticulous researcher for whichever grateful. i am not it is about why we should not legalize marijuana. we wrote it because we saw the train coming down the track as alaska just legalize general recreation years in public opinion has shifted in that direction. maybe even the and gay marriage from to the favorable side. 1520 years ago now is like 60 percent meet thought it

is important to write this book why it is odd that idea. that has public opinion has softened and rwanda maybe 60 percent are in favor of legalization of the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly against it. lot was the drug czar 90 we didn't have this type of research but now it is overwhelming all harm that it does. that the american people are not informed. the point was to get the facts out to make a second judgment i think colorado is ground zero to put that genie back in the bottle to

recur relies because they're starting to see the results. >> host: to restore intended audience? policy makers? the voters coming clearly not libertarian's. [laughter] but who are you aiming this at? >> guest: it is for public policy makers and those are the voters. i was just in colorado it was decided by the people in the suits. for financial interests and others that this is the good

thing to do that it was sent to a takeover by the pot smoking lobby. it was it was by citizens with the process. >> host: with your rendition why do think public attitudes have changed so radically? direct of very smart and well financed campaign therein is big money. this is the investment of the year more big money the people for legalization outspent as they always do those who are opposed. is in florida at barely escaped they had to get that

60 percent of the vote they had 50 percent. sera spent by three / one in one of those that contributed was sheldon adelson. review outspend him. [laughter] that was just with one state. so what i call a rosy memory to chart the vial of the very is rosy it is better to remember after but try to live throat -- through again people think of the '60s him the '70s people had smoked marijuana and no big deal. that is that the marijuana we have today. is very effective campaign in classic terms of medical marijuana or person who

cannot get relief and neighbor tells. that is a legend ministates saying how can you deny the chance that is a difference between marijuana and cocaine but a superb physical specimen new york whalers stock fell by cocaine it doesn't happen like marijuana but it happens. people don't die from marijuana very often. the cocaine will take you to your knees. so this argument with the

sympathy is what kind of person can you be to deny? so with those provisions slips were 5,000 but then she said you to have as many as you want. most of the people were males between the ages of 18 and 25. this was fraudulent but there was of pledge so one of the group's said once we get back so many people can get everything. >> host: one of my favorite quotations is the

example of the school of mankind. you have to show people you cannot just tell people. you said yourself you think colorado will change its mind? isn't that useful isn't that the point of federalism? the phrase separate of democracy is loaded but if the problems with marijuana aha -- are what you say they are in its status as of parent, will challenge you more as a public policy but as a parent i want the keds and i care about to stay away from your one of how we extrapolate is different but if it is as bad as you say

and i tend to agree, why would attitudes change in its favor? you would think millions of people living their lives smoking marijuana is serving as examples to consols many people stop smoking marijuana then they stop why would public sentiment move contrast in opposition? >> guest: a lot of the facts on the ground have not become reality it is not cocaine. over time in when you lose eight iq points a few start as a teenager during 10 or 15 years there is 17% will become addicted. that means a few years.

there is a funny way that those who have marijuana problems they disappear into the woodworking and fadeout. they don't end up in crackhouses or beating their wives or strangling their children like crazy coke for carver is reading a book about a pot wife owe woman who was the star everything is interesting in life. starring in "the blair witch project" so a grower of marijuana. that is how she disappeared.

in ted not reach potential but nothing more dramatic as director our drug policy why do we let the state to this to see what happens and i thought the was the responsible thing to say this will not happen on my watch a rollout let them suffer chair prove my point to not let kids do their homework but now it has occurred there is the great opportunity so pay close attention let's go to colorado every six months and account of the numbers absolutely a.

>> host: to open in the introduction medicare hypothetical about tobacco. i am not sure that i agree with my own hypothetical. but if it was with the in your power to start over again every are pretty close to make it a mortal sin in public. the i am told that it is a place where no smoking is allowed. to the mix cultural sense if

it was in our power the edges were re our. would we decided instead? it is so imbedded in our culture but is very harmful a cigarette smoking but it seems this society tries to prevent serious harms when possible to do so. i don't think it is beyond the realm with all the ads and how bad it is but we can make a decision to make that

through society or not some accounts the outset personnel would not go to use the polls today and tobacco for had that opportunity nor would i with alcohol i like alcohol and the like cigars. so getting to the issue. >> not to say that we're close. what types of factors are taken in chiru consideration? what reasons can we give in then apply that same analysis to marijuana. >> host: so there is a certain prosecutor's brief aspect to the book so as a

parent ion with you for the most part. but public policy there is a certain amount don't leave any argument about. i was intrigued as someone who loves federalism is a gradus system ever conceived for human happiness how they want to live. 1.you seem to throw the baby out with the bathwater. but i wonder whether or not it is the right to to make mistakes to said not when it

comes to marijuana. to revoke the saying that those that make the argument are due to federalism. i a agree the use that as jim-crow but that does not states' rights or what is about today. to have been a reluctance even when the communities are making a mistake? >> i am not sure it has benefited as constitutional but i do believe when the

two conflict there is used to beg the question from remind people it is federal lot has been passed know the obama administration says maybe for what that is established. >> host: what exactly has the obama administration done? >> is essentially to said they would force federal lot. it is a class one substance in that fda has been told to they often don't think that is a wise way to execute the

lot. if people don't like the federal law let them work to change the federal lot. but i think it would come out in a not one jew distract from your question is not republican or democrat you see debbie watson fran schultz get into trouble because she opposed the florida initiative also with their own folks that want to go gung-ho. anyone with the last name paul. that will be a big thing. but to talk about the beginning can i change? the other part of the beginning of the book was the strongest part of the brief but is the harm.

we summarized and reflect the entire article from "new england journal of medicine" to summarize the research done at 30 major universities and the harms are considerable. short-term focus and memory loss of iq schizophrenia, a loss of motivation, all sorts of problems. i did not have this evidence in now that it is available now as professor northwestern to say if i could design a drug that is massively harmful and distracting for student it would be marijuana because focus memory motivation and attention. and in some ways enough to close the case for i will lead mitt can never fully took office had a secretary of education which just

seems nuts to me over a developing brain. , the kids have played football, alcoholism in utero, all sorts of ways to protect that little brain and we have overwhelming evidence it is harmful to developing brains if we want to make it available. >> host: that is last in the beginning who is the book for. your returned to that theme often it is valid and and to on point skewering of that cultural hypocrisy. there is a web site that has a piece to make the case

while sugar should be a controlled substance is abused it is addictive and bad for you but on paper to my mind goes back and forth between persuasive but we will not pay and sugar but if you come to the mindset of privatizing the white house to say libertarians want to privatize but the great thing about our country is debating whether or not will not socialized medicine. that it defines the boundaries of reasonable discourse. the point is valid with this incredibly hyper paranoid state about safety and health to retrieve the

bodies like temples than along comes pot and then it has immunity from all those arguments it is very strange and a good point that you make. >> a lot of things are turned upside down. all of a sudden that is thrown out the window. >> host: when you talk to the audience to make the point that is the question of who wish audience because as a conservative with libertarian leanings my energy to is to say the other is ridiculous obamacare getting deeper into our lives and it excludes marijuana while being a nanny state what is wrong with getting rid of that but the cost is to make

marijuana the right it has to do? >> guest: it is too costly and there is a difference between getting fat and being down. maybe it is a psychological answer but the harm is so real. it is so clear and is a definite and so obvious it seems extremely dumb. let's have the informed debate we're not dealing with what is and isn't. you were in that position of dr. gupta. he says synthetically and will not allow my kids anywhere near this. he feels differently but his record by the way he has have a couple of buds named

after him. [laughter] i am now waiting for wine for may. [laughter] >> host: so getting back to that question have you seen as a matter of debate any movement are those who were for sugar is there any sign on the horizon that pot is good for you? >> guest: bloomberg seems to agree and i am grateful for that although i don't agree with soda and the other things but the possibility is to say we're not going after everything but we will look at things individually to decide.

to again people can and do that through the changes of federal law it is interesting for the lawyers oklahoma and nebraska are soothing colorado on this issue to save the federal government has to enforce the law because of the trafficking coming out to one that is the harm that is being done. by the way this was one of a arguments if it is contained in colorado that there would not be a black market but it has become the black market the cartels are not bothered at all so we could take pride of america ingenuity growing in in colorado is way more powerful. , my brother told me about one of his clients who tried to get a plea bargain the judge said this is the worst

i've ever seen in the said release? the zero were still in the whole world? lake there is no distinction >> host: to take that distinction. >> guest: i was regarded as a third rose repressive person in america by the revolutionary youth communist newspaper when i was 30 years old. >> host: i don't smoke pot [laughter] >> guest: net one to say something about the pot put the active ingredient that gets you high commitee hc in the '60s seen in the '70s averaged 3% this he's marijuana today it is 12%

for i just looked at some ads about big sales this weekend is 30% so of his 40 or 45%. mori went to colorado to experiment taking bites of a candy bar she thought she had died but the candy is another thing. it isn't about children it is through the advertising and the candy takes a little longer so it is more insidious they take a bite nothing happens she thought she had died because of the thc chemical we're better at this is as american ingenuity and just like in

"breaking bad". walter white was very good at it so we're making more powerful strains and that is starting to show up in emergency rooms with of visits to pediatrics and talking to the clinical people about the body count. >> host: i will push back a little bit on that. i do agree with some detractors on some things but there is a point the comparison of a glass of beer to a glass of vodka of mrs. the fact the very few people drink a glass of vodka us to recognize those differences hard liquor and beer. presumably people will nurse

it to what will happen as i play devil's advocate enough er visit have happened during of people die the lesson is learned the more potent stuff you have to treat differently than the less potent if that is a lesson that could be learned fairly quickly. i take your point but certainly we don't say we can trust people to drink to have bought cut on the market because of the alcohol content compared it to the beer to a one lots of generations have learned the lesson may be individually about binge drinking but it doesn't carry over to the next generation they continue to do with. this argument that they take

the 30% teeeight chassis and they will submit is only defined by experience. but they say take golf full pull on this you will go out of your mind remember the clean needles? that is back when i was drug czar talking to people on the street is a new york in boston because i was curious with there were pushing this they say we have clean needles. it just isn't true. that is why you are seeing more of the overdose and emergency rooms and will continue. >> host: cultural vague what happens to a country that goes down the path they are pushing against it in

your book? >> i worry because first of all, i am interested to see the governors say it was a reckless decision. he has been all over the map to be fair to say this could not keep shaper matter his position he was never comfortable assuming he was challenged but i think on balance it was not a good idea. jerry brown i fine results and the odd position to'' people or site debbie boston rituals. [laughter] >> maureen. >> to england journal of medicine. [laughter] but it is odd on all sides

of astoria where was i? >> host: jerry brown to a one he said i am not in favor of that we have big challenges in this country and california eidenshink we can do this effectively if one quarter of overpopulation is buzzed a lot of the time. the average across the country now people 12 years old and older is 7% 12m boulder smoke marijuana now it is 13 it is twice that and will continue to go up. that is a big joke -- a big jump. second when you have legalization i'll blow''

mark cline be he is not in favor he was the of the gold drug czar for the state of washington says when you legalize you will see almost six times as much concerned not as many people but as much consume to hear the marijuana user imitates the alcoholic so 10 percent of people who drink our alcohol they consume 50 percent of the alcohol 20% consume 80 or 90 so what you have the weekly users are now the daily users and you can write to a lot of them off

with productive activity. with the other cultural aspect of every time i bring this up to say i am a mechanical engineer i smoke-free times a week for kosher. people a different but for most of us not on this end of the bell curve it will affect us. the other cultural side is the problems that we do face require a lot of attention and focus. . .

you know the immediate fatality but i no a lot of people who spoke to. i i was in and around the university from 65 to 75. you know promise and opportunity and what they could have been in just fear off and did not die but became a lot less because it

stops you motivation and focus and attention and energy. >> host: and i largely agree with that. i've known people on all end of that filter the people are very productive and people who could have been. that is sort of the problem with this. everyone can pick their anecdotes. people tend to think that -- >> guest: but they can't pick the science. >> host: i did not want it to deep in the weeds, pardon the pun on the science, but they are competing studies for all the stuff. >> the overwhelming body of science, the most prestigious journal of medicine in the world not right wing conservatives. this is the science in the last five years.

assume all of it is true and there is no case for marijuana. assume half is true, 3rd it is true there is no study for study. there are some studies you can cast doubt but the overwhelming evidence preponderance of evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt. >> host: lets get back to the anecdotal part. >> guest: one other aspect, why not make it legal. pediatric psychiatrists, this is an anecdote. it's very interesting. they are overwhelmed. overwhelmed. mostly medicaid patients. overwhelmed the kids coming in for parents. if the candies. why you letting your child do this in the parent says well, it's legal. legal conflicts, legal, permissible, okay.

when people see something is against the law most people tend to avoid it. worried about getting in trouble and so on. it is it is important to have the law there that because it is dangerous because it sends a signal which most people observe. >> host: i am very torn on this. maybe the 1st time it happened i was beginning college campus having beers with some kids afterwards and one of the kids wasn't and i i asked him why. something was shifty about his answer and eventually i found out he wasn't drinking simply because it was against the law and he did not want it on his permanent record. from my culture that was weird, but it was eye-opening.

since then i have i have found that very many places. and it is absolutely true that ambitious people care about that kind of stuff. i mean this gets to my.about the anecdote. as a section where you talk about how the fda takes some drugs off the market if even two or 3 percent of people. i think sometimes the fda's mad about that kind of stuff if you told me that my loved one, there was a 97 percent chance that they would react to some drug very favorably and in make your help them in some major way but there's a 3 percent chance that they would die i i would want to know my alternatives and all the rest but at the end of the day i would not want the fda deciding. i would want to be the one deciding.

on the other hand, marijuana does not cure any disease so it is not quite the same thing. i guess the question i have is what is the logical process by which one makes the distinction? is it purely a numbers game? a tipping.of 12 percent. >> guest: is all the factors you said. they took it off the market. the number was 3 percent. but, as you correctly noted that there were other drugs available. maybe not as good or effective. effective. i think the ones i took were not as effective but i didn't i didn't want that chance to die. fine. that will do nicely. and i say to i say to you but on the medical side

police do something where a lot of people don't fully allow for prescription medication. that is, if you have this case there is testimony is the only thing that works or relieves pain, okay, but follow protocol. a lot of people think it's work at ten or 15. at the end of the day when you put stuff in your bali

you would you like some reassurances been tested out. at the end of the day. >> one that is a decision you don't trust the state equivalent to look at. it depends on the nature of the harm and so on. people want to find cocaine and meth and how. those mexican drug cartels growing better marijuana. the now exporting larger

amounts of heroin. two can play this game. after one am not sure who want to have a public policy held hostage to the reaction of the drug cartels. >> host: i want to get a a little bit back to your cultural concerns. going back to this analogy about tobacco, forget the question of whether we would be in it today are not come tobacco is probably the most demonized product in american life. and it is one of the things i love. it is a band of brothers.

the one thing you know about everyone there is they don't have a problem with cigars which you can find almost anywhere else in america. smoke cigars. should i contest that. i read all about it. many of them right out in public. so what would prohibit him at the end of the day as day, as you know trying to knit this in the bud very early in the process of decriminalization mainstreaming of marijuana. we both agree it will have twists and turns and ups and downs and all the rest. but would preclude the culture responding eventually some serious lawsuits messing things up.

>> absolutely. sure. you will see suits. >> what i i am waiting for which i think is kind of fascinating when employers start saying we are going to fire you if we can test you for having taken an illegal substance and there will be lawsuits about that, should i already are but eventually all of these different institutions will really. what is what is to prevent the culture and the legal institutions and all that from doing to marijuana what they have done to tobacco and minimizing and shrinking his usage. >> they may. but after about., what cost. couldn't this have been avoided. yeah, avoided. yeah, they might. i have heard both stories. in colorado we took some

employers who said we don't even bother to test any more there is just no. we we have heard that. just so many young people using it but i but i think you will see somebody who requires that testing and then gets sued either way. i also think that you will have the bar again often not allies of mine mine, but the trial lawyer association said these people are selling something which is scientifically demonstrably harmful. they know they they know they are selling it not warning people and these guys should be sued for everything they are worth. >> truck drivers have been smoking pot and get into an accident. >> we're seeing more and more that. but let's just talk about education. i told folks in colorado

colorado, just keep doing this and you'll see scores go down and they are already not great. but if but if you lose eight iq points, that's a hell of a lot of iq points. teachers administrators talking about kids in class they think that it looks like a chewing a chewing on a pencil but they are inhaling marijuana. this by the way, the development of the brain starting at 12 and 13 is the time of onset for a lot of marijuana use just exactly the wrong time in terms of cognitive development. so it just seems to me all the things we want to do or we're fighting for worried about, worried about, he just doesn't help. >> two points i want i want to get to. first of all i'm hearing

held from libertarians what about the argument sure, pot is bad, not ideal not great for everybody but okay for some people. the social cost of mass incarceration the social cost of the militarization of police and over criminalization of society are costs on society, to. >> but share financial terms less, a lot less. the estimates were always been a prosecuting cases, arresting people four to 5 billion. the giveaway pass that. estimates are with alcohol. for every dollar you spend

that we get from taxes we have to spend ten because of the harm. a lot of people believe that is about the same ratio you will have. let's get these numbers down the number of people in state prisons for marijuana where that is the most serious offense .6 of 1 percent. smoke a joint in your not going to jail. people play down. people in federal prisons for marijuana possession is about 1.3, 1.4 percent. average amount of average amount of possession is hundred and 15 pounds. that's a lot of marijuana. >> not a personal use scenario. >> no. so those numbers are wildly exaggerated.

people don't go to prison for lighting up. the other question i want to ask is how much of this is really downstream of larger social problems in math class other things going on. my brother had problems died of his addictions. i have strong feelings about this personally. all we are talking about the macrolevel a lot of the problems that your trying to address earlier upstream smoking pot.

where you stand and how securely your foundation is has a lot to do with how much money earth shakes you will be moved. many more lives lost in mexico. a panel discussion on c-span just in part. it part. it was this person from the washington state aclu. only open on dispensaries we need to put them in poor neighborhoods to the people

who have been most victimized by police will have a chance to turn a profit. there is a good idea. ireland. are going after the liquor industry. you guys you guys really have to push at this hard. i i got scolded for it. people yielded me. look if you start smoking and you lose iq and started with less it hurts you more. if your motivation for school wasn't as strong you are the succeeding a lower. there isn't any question. take a malady, take something that is harmful to society, distributed equally to all classes people offend in all classes, as

you said but the fx and harm, some people have safety nets and will be able to go to treatment centers, and some people want. >> we have brought it up a bunch of times. we have all four minutes left. alcohol. alcohol is bad for you. and the book symmetric in a martini and eating steak dinner came by and said is the virtuous? >> let the record show we have had martinis together. >> yes command 1130. >> we 1130. >> we didn't have to give that part. >> a story. we both get up early. alluding to it earlier the only reason why are not applying the same argument alcohol is because it is so embedded in the culture? >> probably. >> so prohibition was the

right idea but it could not work because it was embedded in the society? >> prohibition worked. but the culture would not let it stand. stand. people just wanted to have their booze. prohibition is better than no liquor at all. typical. we could not let it stand. stand. wine at the last supper. your not getting rid of it. you live with the demons you have to some extent but don't introduce knew ones. we know the harm of alcohol. every problem has this -- every family has this problem, almost every family >> and usually the distinction between the alcohol and the part and the other problems is blurred because your judgment is

impaired on one end and five on the other. >> a fair-minded analysis is if anything, if anything from a few active marijuana and tobacco cigarettes and alcohol you would conclude all of this makes me think there is a stronger case against tobacco and alcohol that there is marijuana. we're not going to prohibition. you know, inroads have made for mothers against drunk driving have done good work and all of the stuff toward smokers. there are now more teenagers smoking marijuana the smoking cigarettes. but the same society does what it can. i don't think it can put that alcohol genie back in the bottle. it can put that tobacco genie back in the bottle. we we can stop this one from getting out. >> well, we are just about

out of time. i i want to thank you for doing this writing the book >> can i say one thing? >> we can. >> people have comments or questions, complaints want to say things were me, that's fine. >> in.of fact, if they want to say things about me they should also go there because i want to hear it. >> everything you want to amen jona, and it may. >> this was great. thank you for doing this. >> my pleasure. >> thank you, sir >> you're watching book tv in prime time. every weekend 48 hours of nonfiction books. we invite you to find an like us online at facebook .com/book tv.