this year the superintendent announced that we were going to lose a teacher. they were going to cut a teacher garfield high school nine weeks into this voyeur after kids averted put all this work into the class. it was going to leave 150 students without a class. some of those students hated that class to graduate so it was going to put their graduation in jeopardy. we had a staff meeting to figure out what to do about this problem and i said you know we have got to do something about this. we should rally the school board and tell them about how we can't lose this teacher. another teacher said that's not going to do anything. let's just walk out. [laughter] >> that's a good idea. the entire building emptied of all the students and teachers who said this is outrageous. we are not going to stand for this and they said oh yeah just

kidding. we were planning on doing that. and we saved their teacher and the black student union at garfield now is -- just won the city's human rights award for leading a march first marching to the precinct demanding that black lives matter and then a walk out the day after there was no indictment of darren wilson and they're becoming leaders not just at the school but for the entire city in defining what black lives matter means. think it's all part of this growing struggle. i just want to say one last thing about the transformative nature of these struggles. i want to just end by reading a quick passage if i can. there's a chapter in here you should not miss which is by a young woman named amber kudlow who went to a school here in new york state. she was the school's valedictorian and does she have

the best grades in the highest test scores she was told by the principal she had to give the graduation speech for the school school. she said absolutely not, i don't have anything to say. i'm not a good public speaker. i'm not going to give the test in the principal said it's not that you don't have to just that you would bring shame to your family and the whole school for breaking our tradition of having a valedictorian and basically forces her to give a speech. so i printed her speech in the book and she titled the speech this is in the program but handed out to everyone in the audience. she titles her speech 5.84554767 5.84554767, the phone number for of a state representative pushing for high-stakes testing testing.

and since she had to give the speakers a quick excerpt from what she said. she said as for the argument that these assessments are challenging our students more sure that's true. it's a challenge to get the same amount of material with one more tune. it's a challenge to memorize loads of facts and is also a challenge to eat at teaspoon of cinnamon in one bite without choking but what are you really accomplishing? at this point i would like to throw a slightly relevant quote eyadema's person into the mix to make my speech seem more legitimate. that appears to be how these things work it so albert einstein once said everyone is a genius but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree at the libous whole life believing it's stupid. we can't judge someone's intelligence by how well the dozen small group of isolated classes. everyone learns differently so education is not something that

can be successfully standardized standardized. anyway this is why i tried so hard to get out of this speech. not because i don't respect all of you. i do. it's just that valedictorian is a label and i don't respect what it stands for. i am not the smartest person in the class. i could learn something new from every one of you. i'm good at memorizing things but that's not so useful outside of the standardized world of high school and i'm pretty sure a lot of you have been more successful than i was the most your standard for judging success as a scantron sheet. [applause] to me those words were particularly meaningful as somebody who spent a whole life being humiliated by these tests. i knew that i wasn't intelligent for most of my life and to see someone who'd aced this and knew that this was a scam meant a lot

to me and you can see how these struggles are transforming people all over the country. i think it's time to get on the right side of history and help build this movement. [applause] let's get one more round of applause to diane jesse and ted. to haymarket books and all of our sponsors tonight and to you for coming out. thanks again. pick up a copy on your way out.

gpas.

good evening. i am not here because i'm a long-time north carolinaan, i'm not here because i'm an expert on the specific subject at >> good evening. i am not here because i'm a long-time north carolinians. i'm not here because i'm an expert on the specifics of japan. i'm here because of the heritage that these folks represent and the tradition that their hard work and guts cause them to wake up. i'm here because the names i'm getting ready to say are basic to the state and that heritage is basic to this wonderful work and truly wonderful work that jay smith and mary willingham have been doing on behalf of the

institution that so many of us know and love. and so many of us have been fearful are going to go down without a peep. the names of course are frank and terry sanford and bill friday. all of whom believe that a major point of an institution must not serve itself but to serve the ideas. that is to say it was not enough to salute. you had to salute what it meant. i got here because of bill friday because we have worked together on the knight commission on intercollegiate athletics which was the foundation it temporarily ran and finance. i said i don't know what i'm going to do when i retire. he said come to chapel hill. i've said you got it. i came and it was wonderful to be in a place that i've been so admired for so long. one thing he said to me as we

were worried about the meaning of hiring a big-time coach who immediately have discovered to his surprise of course that would have happened to him before was happening again which was some of his outlying adjunct assistant had been doing funny things with players and their access to money. he said you know said bill friday i was just talking to a young woman who's here at the university who seems to know some things which are very disturbing and i told her well i can't do too much to help but why don't you go over and talk to the folks in the south building, that is to say the administration. the it was mary willingham. i did not think a great deal about that at the time except i figured bill friday were telling me it must have some substance. but i was already worried that so many of us were about the

indications without much proof. i also is a sort of member from the faculty would go from time to time to the meeting of the faculty council because among other things it's a way to find out what is at the heart of the academic enterprise is thinking as well as the administration. there i discovered one thing that was going on was if your name is jeff smith and you got up and said prophetic things about sports you might as well have been a media pariah because you were and the one thing i can tell you about what jeff spoke was people turn their heads not to listen but to somehow or other proving by not listening that what they were saying would go away. these were not partners at this

particular moment except they were aiming for the same final thing. jeff smith and mary willingham and that is the kids should be educated no matter what they were called and the university should face up to that which it failed to do in a way which would restore the integrity which increasingly was obvious and interest in creating a certain kind of sports program. i have to tell you i've been in public life one way or another for a long time. i was shocked to discover just how incredibly and in fact disgusting and capable leadership was in the university system of doing what has had to be done. step up to the plate. say we messed up and we are going to clean it up to there

are a reporter or two in here who discovered how little the university wanted to chew sock about that which was obvious. there were a lot of people in the business of news who discovered i will make the name, richard nixon you would rather pretend that the press is the enemy as opposed to would have what had been done with the enemy. but it took a long time for this to undo itself. the process i had the great good fortune because i got madder and madder because i believe so much in the place. i got the opportunity to note jeff and mary. now i have never actually been involved with something in which a truly bad situation was not only confronted but those who were either as with mary persecuted out of existence by a man who could best be described

as, a bully or jeff who is -- that their day came with such stunning clarity and that which they had been warning of her claiming was now validated by universities own money. not because that one report finished the story because it made it impossible to pretend the story was a lie. in fact it made it impossible to ignore the people in high places have been lying at the university and some of them could not stop lying even then. the book speaks for itself. i birdie told mary i could not go 20 minutes and i think i have it won its a good read and two it's a scary read if you care

about north carolina and the status was university and three it's a reminder that edmund burke was correct in the old cliché is true, the triumph of evil is always a result of the silence of the good. faculty at unc was largely within the category of the silence of the lambs and the administration was largely in the category if i just close my eyes it will go away. this book would sell you how was and will also tell you some ideas of god how it can be kept from happening again. i cannot tell you how proud i am of both of them as if they frank porter graham and terry sanford so it's a great pleasure for me to introduce both of them. [applause]

>> thank you all. >> sometimes we change our names just because we like to do that because we don't want people to know who we are but i'm mary and i have known him as jay. maybe you have changed your name recently. is that true? or professor smith as we like to say. >> this book is of course about the unc scandal, the particulars of the unc scandal, what happened at chapel hill and how and why our ministry to faculty leadership failed to provide proper leadership for so long in 2010 and at least 2014. so you'll find all the details and unc in this book but to really we thank the book is about something greater and

larger than the unc scandal itself. the unc scandal would believe is emblematic of all that is wrong with big-time college sports at the moment. this book is about how prestigious academic institutions can be co-opted by the big-time athletic machine. .. assuming that most of you know a lot of the particulars about the actual course scam, which was at the center of this particular manifestation of academic fraud. it occurred, at least the center of gravity for the fraud occurred in a single department tragically the department of african-american studies where a

group of independent study coreses was developed and bogus lecture courses that functioned as independent studies, and used those courses as, as far as we're concerned, vehicles of eligibility. eligibility for athletes who needed a break or who were not particularly strong students, or weren't inclined to do university work, or for whatever rope maybe they were con cussed maybe they were injured, they needed the team. debbie and julia found them the time they needed by passing them through these particular courses. but it's important to point out as we do in the book, that department was not the only department that was involved in bending or lowering or ignoring academic standards. there were plenty of other fact and i planety of other departments who bent to the

pressures that are invariably exerted by an athletic enterprise at a big-time sport university. courses and faculty, particular factually and philosophy and geography and french and a few other places offered courses that were essentially functioned as free rides for athletes. and they used that slate of courses to keep these athletes on track academically, and on the field, where they're coach kadzhaya their physical labors. we lad hoped actually to show you couple of graphics that would illustrate how this worked for individual athletes. it turns out they're indecipherable when we put them on the screen so we won't use them but we'll talk briefly about a couple of individuals who show how the system worked, how it functioned, how drastic counselors and the support program at unc exploited these

loopholes for the purposes we have already mentioned. and the first of these individuals is julius peppers. one of the most famous throw its in unc history, who transcript lucky for us, is already public so we can talk about that. are there any nc state fans in the room? [laughter] >> yes. >> thank you. for your help. >> in addition to acknowledging dan cane should have said something about pack pride in our acknowledgment. the pack pride fan forum, these are the people who discovered this phantom transcript apparently anonymous transcript was actually julius peppers' transcript. it's really indecipherable on the screen. tend of his third semester necessary residence at unc his

gpa was 1.57. >> he was rocking then. >> not doing too well. and you need to have a 1.75gpa to be eligible for athletic participation for the upcoming season. so what the academic counselors and the aspsa did at unc was route him to 11fm classes out of his next 17 courses and at least eight of those 11 courses were paper classes. and guess what? he did really well. he did real request well in those classes, and he -- >> he was a good paper writer. >> certainly a good paper class performer at the very least. got his gpa where it needed to be. this happened several times in the course of his career, very checkered career. he would fall below the eligible bar ask then get bested over by take these paper classes.

another even more disturbing case perhaps arguably even more disturbing, occurred about three or four yeared later, when one of the players we identify by the alias of reg, in chapter 7 of the book, founder himself with an even lower gpa after his first two september messsters at north carolina. a 1.5gpa. had done miserably in the fall semester, flunked english 100 basics in writing was facing an uphill climb. and the academic counselors the first summer after his first year in residence got really creative. they found an easy mathclass for him to get through. he already failed one math class and had it removed from his transcript retroactively removed. the fawn are found him an easy math class a paper class and

most brilliantly, they persuaded debby crowder to schedule a two independent hour study. independent studies are three-hour course like every other course. the problem with reg was that he needed lots of hours and lots of high grades but couldn't register for nine hours because if he had done that he needed the approval of a dean. and they didn't want deans looking. so, they scheduled a two-hour independent study course for reg instead of three and guess what? he rocked it. he got an a-minus in that course. and then he was boosted up over the eligibility bar, was on the field in the fall. never graduated, however and never played in the nfl, and the reg case is much more egregious as far as we're concerned than julius puppers because at least he made it to the nfl-got something out of the experience

but poor reg representative of so many athletes, got nothing. he got no education he got no -- get get his name called on draft day. he got nothing. and his experience as far as we're concerned, typifies the experience of profit sport or revenue sport athletes basketball and football players, at unc and across the country. what happened at unc was egregious, singular, awful, but things like what happened at unc happen everywhere because all of thieves athletes are working under the same pressures they're working their 50-hour weeks at their sports trying to make they're way in a classroom often at universities where they're not really prepared to do the work, and so friendly faculty and academic counselors find ways to keep them afloat. but all the while they learn that their academic experience, intellectual interests and so on

are subordinated in the athletic demands of the athletic machine and that's something that mary witnessed first hand in her seven years in the academic support program. >> we called it schedule engineering and we were really good at it. so we would play a math game with how many credits the young folksed, men mostly in basketball and football needed to be eligible what the gpa they had was, what they needed and so it was just this game of schedule engineering and eligibility and it really wasn't about an education at all. it was about being an athlete being an athlete first and maybe being a student maybe, second third or fourth. and that's how the system is here at carolina and at schools d-1 schools in particular across the country, and we know now here hearing from some people who are getting in this conversation nationally, even the athletic director from notre dame has joined the conversation this week, saying we have to talk about really semi pro,

these profit sport athletes in basketball and football, who are watching right now on tv during march madnessor, you have to ask yourselves, while they're away from 15-week semester for many weeks during this particular semester but their mandated by the ncaa and the member institutions to be enrolled in full-time classes so 12 hours. you have to ask yourselves could we do senate could we actually do 12 hours of academics and the grueling schedule they have? and it is grueling. we have 18 to 22-year-olds who -- i'm looking around the room and thinking maybe some of you had or have had children in this age, but what we do is we wring bring them into south carolina in the second summer session before their first year and we put them into this type of boot camp where they're to take classes and they're to start their athletic training. so they're lifting, dealing with

the nutrition folks, some of them we learned at the university of tennessee a couple of weeks ago when we visited, are being awoken at 2:00 in the morning to east three peanut butter and jelliy sandwiches because they're supposed to gain weight. so we're doing a lot of work with these young men particularly football players, right to get them ready to play immediately, n the first season in the fall. and they're not really getting a college experience, because really you're supposed to good to college to do what? get to know the campus get to know where the parties are get to know what the -- who is a good professor, get to know who your friends are going to be not to be going from 5:00 in the morning where you might be running stadium stairs to lifting to a few classes to grab something to eat to watch film, to go to practice to go to

study hall, and it goes on and on and on. long days. they're exhausted. they're tired. it's grueling. but they do it because they love their sport and they do it because for many many years they've been told that they're the guy. or they're the gal when it comes to womens sports like womens basketball, but for the most part when we talk about athletes we're talking about basketball and football players profit sport athletes, although the book touches on olympic sports as well but these two sports at cared pay for the 26 other sports. so we have to look -- now we hear about separating this out because it's all different and yet the ncaa lumps into it one category of college sports. >> actually, before -- we're going to read an interesting page from the book if wonder if we should show them a few

figures. >> absolutely. >> interesting to show. you will find these numbers in the book. but what is really interesting about this particular lineup of 18 athletes who took multiple paper classes, in the early 1990s, is -- you probably can't see them but if you study carefully the gpas they earned in regular courses, which you'll find here, other other courses, 194, 152 175, 2 pot 1 171 169, it's. you see that a lot of these guys had georgia pas under 2.0 or in parallel, at least. in danger of falling below 2-point0. then if you look how they were helped by the multiple courses they took with julius in the blue column, they're install the

high 2s and low 3s so they're getting bs b-minuses, about-pluses, in the early 90s they stayed away from ayes generally some sort of b that julius and debby would hand out. but what happens, of course when you combine a bunch of low-performing courses with those higher performing courses it evens out in the end and you get your gpa above the threshold where it needs to be. so in the end, even i can't see this very well -- other gpa and other courses -- grades earned in other courses. you can see how the courses functioned, and what is so striking about this group of 18,

these were the first 18 players who were sent to julius on more than one occasion, in other words, academic counselors realized he was handing out gifts, and they sent these players to him time and again to get those gifts and those gifts elevated the gpa to the places where they needed to be. here you see a little more strike leg the actual paper class advantage to the gpa. again, i realize you can't really see these very well, but the number of paper classes taken, and you can see one person -- one lucky soul got to take 18 paper classes. his are his gpa in other classes, 1 356. dismal. not eligible. had it not been for the paper classes which got his gpa back to a somewhat respectable 2.3, and that is -- this is just a

sampling of what we came across in our perusal of course records. so the point is that these guys didn't get a real education. they were subordinated to the needs of the athletic program their teams, their coaches and their own athletic desires too, but they were effectively denied real educations. >> a lot of the problem starts at the front door where we admit students who -- athletes in particular who are not able to do the coursework. so we really set the system up, right, at the front door, for cheating, because what are we going to do with a guy who is reading at even the new provotes bill disagree, the national statistics for education tell us that our black males in particular only ten percent in this country as pathetic as that and is should be

outraged -- are reading at agreed level at eighth grade. so the football and basketball players are coming to us not prepared for the academic rigor of college and that's true of many white males as well because their numbers aren't that much better. they're a little bit better. so we have a literacy crisis in this country, and we're not dealing with that. but that's really a separate issue, although it's connected to this. it's a k-12 problem with the public school system. meanwhile our post secondary institutions are bringing in athletes who do not meet admission standards at the time universities. at cared we have 30,000 applications and take 4,000 students so highly competitive. so we have some recommendations in the end of the book and there's some recommendations floating around congress now and in groups like the drake group and a new group across the country, if you're going bring these guys in, and women too but we talk about these two groups, profit sports, men, let's be honest, and meet them

where they're at academically and bring them long and offer them a real education. if it attacked six years or eight years, whatever it's going to take,be but the contract the scholarship agreement says in exchange for your talent we'll provide you with a world class education, and what we can see across the country, because it's uss such great case study that's not happening. so the athletes are not getting paid not getting benefits and not getting a real education, so many of them are getting nothing, and yet we all enjoy watching them on game day as consumers of college sports. so we can talk about all of the carolina people and administration and the staff and the african-american studies department who are complicit in all of this, but we're all a little bit complicit in all of this. so we need to get into the conversation, have it changed. but there's a great example in the book of what it's like for an athlete who have this idea

how controlled they are, in a profit sport, for example in football. there's a paragraph i'm going read and it kill mets as read specialist because i should have you reading to me so i can see what agreed level you're reading it's. a stark expression of this effort to control players' bodies and minds and command their loyalty to the machine is found in the locker room of the unc football team. as revealed in the documentary film, schooled, the price of college sports, and if you haven't seen this documentary, you really need to look it up. the coaching staff at cared uses players, nfl at aspiration as leverage. posted on a door in the locker room is an infantile -- see that's the word -- a word man -- sign the type of sign -- infantizing sign that identifies misbehaving individuals and reminds the rogues who their

master is, attention, nfl scouts i will not discuss the following players. they are selfish, lazy and have no concept of team. they cannot help you win football games. can you believe that? can you believe that? the very existence of that sign makes a mockery of the oft repeated claim that college football players are students first. not only is it offensive that unc would allow the bullying and dim intimidation of aspiring professionals. coaches threaten to brand players in the you'ds of nfl scouts and prospective employers. does that seem wrong to anybody? not what college is supposed to be about. in the classroom we wouldn't make a list on the board of the students who are failing the test, who shouldn't get in to law school or shouldn't get into medical school, we would never do that. and yet these guys their hopes and dreams are shattered each

and every day. it's such a controlled environment. and it's really an issue -- a civil rights issue, as taylor branch tells us it's a social justice issue, and we really hope that cheated can become part of the national conversation. it's about the unc scandal, yes but about the education of athletes and the future of big-time college sports and was a privilege for the write this book with jay smith, and it was privilege to take this journey with all of you and for the support i've gotten, and dan we can't have done it without you, and so many people in this room who made this happen. i think in the long run it's going really make a difference and we'll be on the right side of history. >> yes. >> so, we'd be happy to answer question. >> we loaf -- love to be

stunned. >> thank -- we love to be stumped. [applause] >> you mentioned paper classes. that's where it has to start no question. these guys -- by the way to the coaches, the two coaches, they didn't know anything about this. apparently no questions asked. >> they all knew. they all knew and they all know. >> these poor young fellas are coming into this big university where such standards are demanded of them, and really they just -- their dream is the nba and the nfl and that is the only route they have to be seen by the scouts. >> that's right. >> it's my opinion that they should be another route to those two bodies. so they can get there and earn the money that they they're entitled to. i really believe that.

>> two separate systems is what this gentleman is suggesting so the profit sports would have a different system semi pro type league, if you will and there's some talk about that. even the powers dish call them the power keg five because i think they'll blow this up. they're all fighting about what to do. who is going to get paid, how much they're going to get paid in the o'banon case has changed the future. there's an antitrust issue, very complicated, but in america, as jay says we solve complicated business deals every day. so we should be able to come up with a solution for this. >> baseball is a great example. >> that's right. absolutely. >> why we can't have that for football and basketball. >> i agree. >> we could but a lot of people are make money off the books these thieves guys and want to continue to make money. >> i'd be interested in hearing how the new chance lore -- chancellor treated you when you

went into the meeting. i know how this whole thing -- i don't think he paid enough attention to it, and chancellor comes in and could have made herself look really good by thanking you and hiring you back into your position. could you speak to that? >> the gord of governors and more importantly the board of trustees are really in charge. i believe that be true. i don't know how much control she has in my opinion, that she is not -- that she is the face of the university at this point and it's the first female chancellor that we have had in 220 years. so it's exciting, but she was at the mediation, she made an appearance. she was trying to do the best she could. she had at the team of attorneys. i think she also would like to get this behind her and i really wish just like i had wished for chancellor holden i

wish they had more support in leadership at the university from the board of trusteesees and the board of governors. again, big money, boosters, it's very complicated. so i think it's a system dish think we can't look at just the one person or focus on a person but it's the whole system. we just lost tom ross. president ross. so much repair work needs to be done. i don't think we can blame it all on her. >> heading in the wrong direction with president ross being forced out? >> we just -- [laughter] >> easier do mr. to say i wilt fulton dean would have behaved differently but i know the faculty should have behaved differently. this faculty should have been putting the heat on the administration and there's no discuss for it. >> that's why it was created.

>> yes. >> how serious in all the scandals across the country, how many admissions directors or members of the admissions committee have been held accountable? how many athletic administrators or faculty members or academic administrators have been held accountable? how many have lost their jobs? the only ones i see losing their joins are coaches and academic support people. it's totally backwards. they can't -- if they're not admitted you're not going to have these problems. i worked at a university where many of the same kids were not admitted because of their transcripts. and i'm not going to name the university, but the were not admitted and we didn't have the same problems they have at carolina. nobody is held accountable in the upper levels. they're the ones hiring all the attorneys, and they're the ones that don't have to answer to those above them, the admissions

committee, admissions director, at this particular school we had an admissions director that would not let them in period. >> that is true. >> absolutely. >> admissions director, the faculty, the committee that is in charge of special admits and the faculty athletic representative are under the radar. auto nc and every, they fly right under the radar and not held accountable. >> it's not going to change until that's done. anytime not one that says anybody that is marginal should not be admitted. i know of cases where one gentlemen gentleman i went to school with is now call doctor but he graduated as a minister. >> the first success story. this woman has question. >> i have a question. i agree with everything that's been said about k through 12 and the business solutions. i'm a duke grad so i'll disclose that. when a student comes to the

school of business and they're prepared, they spend the whole -- i think it's a month to six weeks before school starts in a boot camp. if you have identified these people dish don't believe development admit are any different that the student-athletes. the private sector, if you're looking at a private school they have development admits and they're not nearly as qualified as the rest of the pool of applicants that get in. and so i think there are solutions, and i haven't read the book. i just picked it up. there are solutions that can help, and i don't think that it's anything radically different from what is already being done for development admit, for people in business school settings. have you looked at it at carolina to see if there's -- >> my experience -- when i came out of the athletic department in 2010 i went into the college of arts and sciences as an advicer and a learning specialist. i ended up as a graduation

advicees, somebody thought it was a good idea to give me total access to all the records. mam that. i -- imagine that. i saw that the gap is much wider with athletes than it is with other students who come through maybe the community college or maybe nontraditional students but the gap in academic preparedness with our athletes, profit sport athletes for us, is much wider. my comment really is, we don't know all of this until we have transparency and disclosure you disclosed to us you were from duke. we never disclose what our athletes' transcripts look like because we hide behind frfa the law that says we need to protect that but we can defy reg and we can talk about reg and talk about his transcript and nobody knows who he is, and even better, if we have a pile of them we can say that. we can see that. so again, not to pick on my friend from notre dame but on a panel a few weeks ago he said at

notre dame we don't have this problem. we graduate 98% of our football and basketball players and we do it right. and i said, you know what? i would love to believe that. i hope it's true. show me the transcripts. that's the only way that we're going to see if it's true or not. we'll see if students have been put in pass classes, clustered together, the same major, independent studies online classes. that's the only way to prove these young people are getting a real education we promised them. >> you're right. if we admit them and they're that far behind we have to mediate their deficiencies. >> however long it takes. >> i'm all for that. >> we are too. >> third row back. >> you mentioned before that both coaches took the fall or both coaches new what was going on in the scandal. why hasn't the basketball coach taken the fall here?

>> i think he is playing a game right at the moment so we can't call him up right now ask him but i think that eventually we're going to stephen ncaa comps back in there's more coming and happening behind the scenes and i do believe that changes are coming. i certainly think that the ncaa has some rules that might be effective, and one of them is you should have known if you didn't know, and because you were in charge, and making a boat load of money off the backs of these young people. time will tell the story. but again we'll protect the brand and protect our money at all costs. that's what we do. >> and head coaches have given themselves plausible deniability by building in a bureaucratic layer of academic counselors who get kid registeredded in courses and declare majors and so on. so the coach can always say wasn't me.

it was that layer of bureaucrats who answer to me and talk to me every day, but it's their fault, not mine. so it's plausible deniability. built right in. >> i have a comment and a question. one is that julius peppers didn't only play football, he was so gifted academically he played basketball as well. >> yes. >> yes. >> quite a scandal. >> and another specific that you may or hey not be able to respond to but i can remember rashad mccants announcing that being in the basketball program was like being in prison. i'm curious whether his transports have ever been public information? his one of the few players that's been made allegations and been vocal about his experience and there's been denial and coaches quoted him as not lying but he was just wrong. i guess there's a fine distinction there, but is there

anything public about rashad mccants' actual transcripts? >> his transcripts were shown on espn outside the lines. so they have been made public. so we have all now seen his transcripts. and he is telling the truth, that he did take four paper classes and was on the dean's list in 2005, the spring. his transcript reflects that. and it also reflects he was failing most of his regular core classes. so he tells some great stories, and i think he is playing overseas right now but die believe we'll be hearing more from his and his stories and they'll be fascinating help has a beside reputation for being a character, but just like all of us once you sit down at the fable get to know us we're not exactly as we may seem, and he is certainly one of those people. >> you allude to one offed the great undiscussed seasonals within the scandal. the fact that jowlus peppers

with his sub 2.0gp and an awful performance academically, the fact that after the firstee, the basketball coach decided it was a good idea to get him on the basketball teach fashion the athletic director allowed it, also did everybody else. this is a scandal. it should never have happened. how was this possible? >> that man had his hand up for a very long time. >> did you have chance to interview the players or maybe coaches, and if so, what do they say? >> well, who i worked with students in the athletic department for seven years so a lot of the stories and specialfully chapter seven and eight are from my own experience working with the young men and women i worked with while i was there. and in addition we did do some interviewing. we had some athletes we talked and some faculty and staff.

we didn't talk to coaches. >> no, we didn't. >> we didn't talk to any coaches. but we certainly have heard from coaches, you know, espn, outside the lines, and locally we have heard from some coaches -- the last report they didn't know necessarily about what was happening behind the scenes in the academic support units, but we reported to them on a weekly basis from the academics unit for student-athletes. they had all the records. they helped with clearing athletes for tournaments like right now in march madness, before you go, to the tournament, you have to certify your students all over again. so you're constantly -- when you're in an academic support unit in athletics you're constantly looking at transcripts and letting the coach notes who is eligible, who is not who is sitting on the fence, where we're going forward with all of that. >> yes. yes. >> i'd like to thank you as well. >> thank you. >> and i was wondering if you

talked about burgess mcswain and wayne walden in their book and they're involvement. >> we do. you hate to speak ill of the dead but -- >> but we do. i'm sure when i'm dead lots of people will speak ill of me. so they speak ill of me now. some of them wishing i was dead right now. >> lehigh moth sizedded the burgess and debby crowder and julius concocted the system. it was at her prompting in the late 80s there were a lot of weak students on the basketball team. she loved those guys and wanted to help them in the way that seemed right and she found the easiest classes she could for them and turned out some of them were easy indeed. and after going through a year of two experimenting essentially

with these courses, we believe they basically systemized the whole thing by their early '90s. >> so there were other easy courses, in the general college? >> yes. >> well, paper classes -- >> no not -- well in philosophy and geography. so we identify those. >> okay, all right. >> they had to taker what nine hours at least. >> 12. and generally six hours in the summer session. >> always easy classes but most people's transcripts are not littered with easy classes. >> we have all -- >> i took culture today. >> if there were meet examination tests and you have to go -- okay. maybe it's not fraudulent but -- >> it's not isolated in sports. >> that's true too. >> one question. you didn't -- always about

money. essentially comes down to money. what proposals or what findings did you have relative to policing the boosters? which is the primary source -- >> policing the boosters. a good question. >> that's an interesting question. mary? >> we don't really -- thank you. we don't really get into that. although we have had conversation inside the last few weeks about how we really have -- it's still evolving for us. we studied this and following everything that is happening nationally and talking to arne duncan, the secretary of education in conversations with all these people. lots of conversations going on out there. is it really possible to connect academics to athletics? in other words you have to be academically eligible, which maybe doesn't answer your

booster question per se but if we make this connection go away, and we say, you can be a college student, you can also play division-1 profit sports but we'll separate those and we're going to pay you we're going to give you benefits, maybe make you an employee like the northwestern football team its suggest. we are waiting for nlrb to rule. maybe these booster issues would goo away. then the scholarship issue goes away and all these perks go away. so it's hard to really -- it is a complex business problem. >> you're getting to the -- money corrupts. >> i think it's fruitless to try to control it so it's better several the relationship. that's my opinion. but mary is getting there. >> what? >> the immensity of the problem in big-time college sports where would you locate

yourselves on the spectrum from optimistic to pessimistic insofar as significant movement toward a solution? >> i'm optimistic because i'm in it to win it, as the ncaa says. and i think that we're riding a wave right now that is pretty positive. as michael housefelled who fought opanon case he said the door is open a little bit to fix this. we have to take it off the hinges. it has to come all the way down and we're still a was away from that. but big money, corrupts, and there's a lot -- there's television contracts out three years so that's a problem but the conversation is alive and people are getting involved, are you as optimistic as i am? >> not quite but we both have

high hopes for these class action lawsuits could which bring change, especially the mccants ramsey lawsuit which takes aim at the educational defrauding of athletes. we have high hopes and we'll see how it goes. if you read our book, it's kind of a downer -- but in the conclusion we do try to sound some sunny optimism there. >> that was my part. >> yeah, right. i don't know how many questions we have time for. i'm sorry. who is next. >> i think this gentleman has been waving at me. i don't know if the waving works. >> the reason for not getting your job back they should welcome you back because you're doing the right thing. >> i don't really think that our differences at this point are reconcilable yet. but i believe that some day they will be and i have hope also,

and i'm optimistic some day i'll be invited back. people are inviting to us come. we'll be at carolina in april in a classroom. so there's an interest to hear from us, and i think once the story gets more legs legs and once the national conversation continues and court cases move forward, think that the university will perhaps recognize me as somebody who belongs. i'm a tarheel. i'm a tarheel, and always be one. we raid our kids on the campus mitchell husband, chuck, is here. we live three blocks from the carolina inn. our kids come home and go on franklin street, and they love it here and we're not going anywhere. so i'll just wait it out. i have ha few good years left. >> i've seen two people with hands um for quite a while. >> my question has to do with, was there a moment at which --

if you could explain that moment or did it occur over a longer time when you realized i've got to act. what that was like. >> that's kind of an easy question actually. wouldn't you say, mary? it was immediately in the wake of the martin report. we were fuming -- the governor jim martin released a report in december of 2012 in which he famously declared, this is not 0 an athletic scandal, it's an academic scandal, limited to one department, and we were on the phone with each other within seconds, or mary was at the meeting, and if you see -- one-half the documentary schooled you'll see her crushed by the announcement of the governor's and -- >> i had a really nice jacket on. but i was really upset. >> i was crushed.

i watched it online, and i was not knocked breathless and by the end of the day we decided, we're writing a book because it was clear towels at that point that the university had no intention of disclosing what had really happened in chapel hill. they were going to keep as tight a lid on it as they could and we were determined the truth would be told. it had to be told because this story was just too important. so. >> before that i actually was talking dish left the athletic department in 2010 six months ahead of marvin austin's famous tweet where everything blew open and started out as impermissible benefit width the party in miami tweeted about. and then like some kids shouldn't be allowed to go to party and get free drinks. how insane. and then the academic problems were uncovered during that investigation, and i remained silent except that i talked to general counsel