sub 2.0gp and an awful performance academically, the fact that after the firstee, the basketball coach decided it was a good idea to get him on the basketball teach fashion the athletic director allowed it, also did everybody else. this is a scandal. it should never have happened. how was this possible? >> that man had his hand up for a very long time. >> did you have chance to interview the players or maybe coaches, and if so, what do they say? >> well, who i worked with students in the athletic department for seven years so a lot of the stories and specialfully chapter seven and eight are from my own experience working with the young men and women i worked with while i was there. and in addition we did do some interviewing. we had some athletes we talked and some faculty and staff. we didn't talk to coaches. >> no, we didn't. >> we didn't talk to any coaches.

but we certainly have heard from coaches, you know, espn, outside the lines, and locally we have heard from some coaches -- the last report they didn't know necessarily about what was happening behind the scenes in the academic support units, but we reported to them on a weekly basis from the academics unit for student-athletes. they had all the records. they helped with clearing athletes for tournaments like right now in march madness, before you go, to the tournament, you have to certify your students all over again. so you're constantly -- when you're in an academic support unit in athletics you're constantly looking at transcripts and letting the coach notes who is eligible, who is not who is sitting on the fence, where we're going forward with all of that. >> yes. yes. >> i'd like to thank you as well. >> thank you. >> and i was wondering if you talked about burgess mcswain

and wayne walden in their book and they're involvement. >> we do. you hate to speak ill of the dead but -- >> but we do. i'm sure when i'm dead lots of people will speak ill of me. so they speak ill of me now. some of them wishing i was dead right now. >> lehigh moth sizedded the burgess and debby crowder and julius concocted the system. it was at her prompting in the late 80s there were a lot of weak students on the basketball team. she loved those guys and wanted to help them in the way that seemed right and she found the easiest classes she could for them and turned out some of them were easy indeed. and after going through a year of two experimenting essentially with these courses, we believe they basically systemized the whole thing by their early

'90s. >> so there were other easy courses, in the general college? >> yes. >> well, paper classes -- >> no not -- well in philosophy and geography. so we identify those. >> okay, all right. >> they had to taker what nine hours at least. >> 12. and generally six hours in the summer session. >> always easy classes but most people's transcripts are not littered with easy classes. >> we have all -- >> i took culture today. >> if there were meet examination tests and you have to go -- okay. maybe it's not fraudulent but -- >> it's not isolated in sports. >> that's true too. >> one question. you didn't -- always about money. essentially comes down to money. what proposals or what findings

did you have relative to policing the boosters? which is the primary source -- >> policing the boosters. a good question. >> that's an interesting question. mary? >> we don't really -- thank you. we don't really get into that. although we have had conversation inside the last few weeks about how we really have -- it's still evolving for us. we studied this and following everything that is happening nationally and talking to arne duncan, the secretary of education in conversations with all these people. lots of conversations going on out there. is it really possible to connect academics to athletics? in other words you have to be academically eligible, which maybe doesn't answer your booster question per se but if we make this connection go away, and we say, you can be a college

student, you can also play division-1 profit sports but we'll separate those and we're going to pay you we're going to give you benefits, maybe make you an employee like the northwestern football team its suggest. we are waiting for nlrb to rule. maybe these booster issues would goo away. then the scholarship issue goes away and all these perks go away. so it's hard to really -- it is a complex business problem. >> you're getting to the -- money corrupts. >> i think it's fruitless to try to control it so it's better several the relationship. that's my opinion. but mary is getting there. >> what? >> the immensity of the problem in big-time college sports where would you locate yourselves on the spectrum from optimistic to pessimistic

insofar as significant movement toward a solution? >> i'm optimistic because i'm in it to win it, as the ncaa says. and i think that we're riding a wave right now that is pretty positive. as michael housefelled who fought opanon case he said the door is open a little bit to fix this. we have to take it off the hinges. it has to come all the way down and we're still a was away from that. but big money, corrupts, and there's a lot -- there's television contracts out three years so that's a problem but the conversation is alive and people are getting involved, are you as optimistic as i am? >> not quite but we both have high hopes for these class

action lawsuits could which bring change, especially the mccants ramsey lawsuit which takes aim at the educational defrauding of athletes. we have high hopes and we'll see how it goes. if you read our book, it's kind of a downer -- but in the conclusion we do try to sound some sunny optimism there. >> that was my part. >> yeah, right. i don't know how many questions we have time for. i'm sorry. who is next. >> i think this gentleman has been waving at me. i don't know if the waving works. >> the reason for not getting your job back they should welcome you back because you're doing the right thing. >> i don't really think that our differences at this point are reconcilable yet. but i believe that some day they will be and i have hope also, and i'm optimistic some day i'll be invited back.

people are inviting to us come. we'll be at carolina in april in a classroom. so there's an interest to hear from us, and i think once the story gets more legs legs and once the national conversation continues and court cases move forward, think that the university will perhaps recognize me as somebody who belongs. i'm a tarheel. i'm a tarheel, and always be one. we raid our kids on the campus mitchell husband, chuck, is here. we live three blocks from the carolina inn. our kids come home and go on franklin street, and they love it here and we're not going anywhere. so i'll just wait it out. i have ha few good years left. >> i've seen two people with hands um for quite a while. >> my question has to do with, was there a moment at which -- if you could explain that moment or did it occur over a longer

time when you realized i've got to act. what that was like. >> that's kind of an easy question actually. wouldn't you say, mary? it was immediately in the wake of the martin report. we were fuming -- the governor jim martin released a report in december of 2012 in which he famously declared, this is not 0 an athletic scandal, it's an academic scandal, limited to one department, and we were on the phone with each other within seconds, or mary was at the meeting, and if you see -- one-half the documentary schooled you'll see her crushed by the announcement of the governor's and -- >> i had a really nice jacket on. but i was really upset. >> i was crushed. i watched it online, and i was not knocked breathless and by

the end of the day we decided, we're writing a book because it was clear towels at that point that the university had no intention of disclosing what had really happened in chapel hill. they were going to keep as tight a lid on it as they could and we were determined the truth would be told. it had to be told because this story was just too important. so. >> before that i actually was talking dish left the athletic department in 2010 six months ahead of marvin austin's famous tweet where everything blew open and started out as impermissible benefit width the party in miami tweeted about. and then like some kids shouldn't be allowed to go to party and get free drinks. how insane. and then the academic problems were uncovered during that investigation, and i remained silent except that i talked to general counsel in 2010 that they pretty -- i talked to them

and they ignore met, and then in 2011 i started speaking with dan cain of the record and then in 2012 when i was still talking to him, went to president friday's funeral, and i remember mittwill with him in 2010 and i felt really bad when i heard about the president friday and how important academic integrity was to him, and i spoke to my husband chuck about how upset was. he start started a blog. it went viral, and then dan cain said, you're base chris -- basically on the record now so off to the races we went, and then i met jay at around that same time, and his -- he personally and his athletic reform group, group of faculty have had my back and although it seems like i have had all this hate, which i have, fans are fanatics -- i have had many

more supporters encouraging me on because many of us know that this is the truth and that we have seen this ourselves. and we'd like to do something as well but iland to be in the right place at the right ty time have great support from my husband and family and was able to keep it up and wouldn't have been able too do this book. without this guy, because i'm a reading specialist and a learning specialist and i can tell stories but he is the writer. so it's been -- >> you tale good story. >> it's been a great journey and i've learned a lot. >> r. >> as time has gone by you have students who are failing and now you have -- are those same students passing and what courses are they taking or -- >> we can't see the transcripts anymore. they cut us off. they cut him off too. imagine that. but we know that admissions standards were --

>> admissions have been raised a couple of years ago, and so last two years unc admitted fewer -- still admitting some but far fewer of the truly at-risk students. something like -- i'm going get the numbers wrong but i think 25 were admitted in 2008 whereas in 2012 only nine. i seem to recall those -- so they do seem to have tightened up the standards. the danger of course, is that this may be just a temporary measure while everybody its looking. they have adopted no hard and fast rules about admissions going forward. and so we have to be vigilant in watching admissions. but which courses are they taking? we really don't know. we can't tell. we're just not close enough to the ground any longer to know what they're doing. but there have been a couple of academic casualties. >> yes. >> on the football teamworks for

the first anytime the history we lost four players, three or four. >> that's right. >> academically ineligible. my goodness. >> getting tougher for them. >> last question. getting the sign. >> my question is -- again, i appreciate dish wanted to commend you both for everything you have done. my question is more about the culture at the university that allows this and why haven't we seen more professors tenured professors, that step up and actually take a stand on this? because they're the ones that -- we see the university's -- if hey a nephew in premed over there, and we have had this discussion. getting a great education by but the value of the degree obviously has been tarnished. >> that's right. >> i can only agree with you.

faculty are supposed to be the guarantors of the integrity 0 of the institution, supposed to be the watch dog for these sorts of offenses. and the fact that we haven't been marching on polk place is a mystery to me. i don't understand it. there are -- i want to say there are plenty of other faculty at unc who are as angry as i am but not as outspoken but a lot of them. but it's true that the faculty as a collective just hasn't mustered much energy, and i'm very disappointed by that. i don't have a good answer for it. there are lots of reasons why faculty tend to be reticent but -- >> there's sociology theory called organizational deviance. it happens at universities and industry. it's part of our culture right now. it's really sad. [inaudible]

>> that is one of the factors. >> nobody wants that. everybody just wants to be left alone. >> there's a startling statistic that i came across at the time of a faculty rally a couple weeks ago in front of south building, which is that 59% of faculty at unc are not on the tenure track. the majority of faculty do not have the appreciation of tenure. ...

lenora. >> how are they going to do it without just totally missing the point? >> this is a really great question and it's a huge experiment. i talk about in the books of thanks for asking. the number one instrument of schools across the country using for social and emotional climate is a simple survey. the majority of questions students and teachers edge. a pretty simple in terms of i'm excited to come to school every

day, that somebody at school who cares about me. when you integrate this data and make it high-stakes there's always a chance of gaining the system. any management can be gained. any management can be undermined. in the public schools which introduced a social and emotional measure they instituted social and emotional walk-throughs. it became a component not the schools will be punished for this information at the have to integrate into the school and approve the plan. metrics that they work on include very clear things like absenteeism, turnover and behavioral issues. but what the walk through does is a way of assessing on a personal basis and it's similar to what's done in the uk with school inspections or cornerstone as a process. i have no doubt as a scrutiny and movement grows there will be no instrument got talk to people