r your time and thank you for sharing your story with us -- representative torres. >> thank you. >> our interviews with congressional freshmen conclude tonight with montana republican ryan zinke. the former navy seal reflects as his new role -- on his new role as an elected official. tonight at 9 eastern on c-span. ♪ ♪ >> this week on "q&a," our guest is dick lehr author of "the birth of a nation: how a legendary filmmaker and a crusading editor reignited america's civil war." c-span: dick lehr, author of "the birth of a nation," in a recent washington post review the gentleman that wrote -- [inaudible] starts out this way: no red-blooded american today would favor censoring works of art, but while reading "the birth of

a nation," you may find yourself rooting for just that in the form of a clampdown on the landmark 1950 teen film o. same name. >> guest: boy, isn't that a great start to a review? c-span: not bad, he used the word "fascinating." why "the birth of a nation," and what is it? >> well, it's considered america's first blockbuster film. and the story i wanted to tell is not only the making and the release of that film in 1950, but the controversy that it provoked. and it's mainly a story about a civil rights leader, forgotten civil rights leader from boston by name of william monroe trotter, radical newspaper editor as well, who was at the forefront of extensive protest actions against this film about civil war and reconstruction which is entirely racist in its portrayal of black america. c-span: if this film were to come out today and be a in a

multiplex theater in this country, what would happen? >> guest: well, i hope it wouldn't get censored but i hope there'd be lots of protest drawing anticipation to the racism that's at the heart of story. c-span: just so we can get a flavor, want to do a minute. want to show the opening of this. understand what it looks like for three hours and 12 minutes. let's watch. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ c-span: the first minute of "the birth of a nation," what did we just see? >> guest: we showed as griffith in his title said the first thing of this union in america was the bringing of africans as slaves to the united states. and it sort of sets the note that the tone that freeing slaves was a huge mistake. c-span: when did you first watch this and what was your reaction to it? >> guest: boy, my first viewing of this was, like many people's, it was in a film history course in college. it's the starting point. because this movie, in terms of film making technique was a breakthrough moment in the history of american film.

usually this is where you begin and a lot of attention is paid -- as it should -- to dprif it's pioneering film making it can anemics his use of the close-up, his cross-cutting to to enhance the drama and what not. also the epic scale of it. it goes on for three hours, as you mentioned. so, you know, that was that. that's where i first got into it. there's a huge disconnect between the technique though however, and again, the story that it tells of the civil war and reconstruction. c-span: february, what was the date, let's see, 17th 1915, there was a showing of this movie at the white house when woodrow wilson was president. explain how that happened. >> guest: well the filmmakers and griffith being the director but also the author of the book the clansmen upon which it was based written by a very popular and racist writer from that era, a man by the name of thomas dixon.

well, dixon and wilson went way back. they were friends. they knew each other in college at johns hopkins. dixon had a real knack in this era of marketing and promotion. dixon said let's get this movie screened in the white house, that would be something. and he pulled it off and that's what happened on that date in the east room of the white house. there was the first-ever screening of a motion picture and before a president of the united states who thought it was a terrific piece of work. c-span: who was in the crowd? >> guest: who was in the crowd? his family his immediate -- some of his cabinet members and some other high ranking washington figures. c-span: but you also had, as i read in your book, you have a former chief justice. >> guest: yeah. you have the serious power brokers. and it went so well that night that dixon and griffith very quickly put together a second screening for the supreme court of the united states and a lot of the congressional leaders and what not. again, terrific sense of marketing and promotion.

and getting these power brokers behind the movie as being an awesome piece of film making. you have to to remember when you go back to 1915, the film industry, the film is in its infancy. no one had ever seen anything like what griffith had produced sort of take away the subject matter being the civil war and reconstruction. but just the effects of it all had people audiences weeping during, you know, very emotional scenes had other members of the audience on their feet applauding during battle scenes and what not. out really was kind of the star -- it really was kind of the "star wars" of its time. c-span: where was woodrow wilson from originally? >> guest: originally from the south, kentucky. c-span: d.w. griffith? >> guest: also from the south, louisville, kentucky. that's where he grew up. his father, lieu end tent colonel roaring jake griffith

fought with the wild kentuckians for the confederacy. c-span: and where was tom dixon from? >> guest: he was from south as well. so you had this, you know unified front, so to speak, in terms of a southern view of the war and its aftermath. c-span: newspaper report, this is you writing, newspaper reporters and the smartest society folk fill the remaining seats. the turnout had exceeded any reasonable expectation. journalists had to agree the film was off the record because it had not yet been shown publicly in the east. >> guest: i know. and those were the terms both for the screening at the white house and the second screening i just mentioned. but give it was not -- griffith was not one to live by those terms, because he sent telegrams after the white house screening to a favorite entertainment reporter of his at the l.a. times, a woman named grace

kingsley and reported both the screening and how wonderfully it had gone. so it was grace kingsley, in one of her entertainment columns 3,000 miles away who broke news that there had been this amazing screening inside the white house. c-span: what was woodrow wilson's known attitude at the time about african-americans? >> guest: well, you know, i think he was very smart politically because the crusading newspaper editor the civil rights leader who's a main character in the book monroe trotter, had supported wilson when he ran for president in 1912. he and other black leaders had gone and met with him in new jersey and had come away encouraged by wilson's promise to be fair to all americans. and i just think at that moment trotter was incredibly naive because that was sort of generic pablum, it turned out. it was under wilson's watch as

president that the national government went jim crow. there's an enormous amount of backsliding, the segregation in the treasury and other federal agencies had -- was unprecedented. and it drove trotter nuts. c-span: our audience should know this is in the public domain, so they can go on youtube and find it. there are plenty of opportunities to watch the whole thing, the if you want to. we're going to show excerpts. here's one, it's #u 16 and -- 1:16. it's some slaves shown in demeaning roles at the early part of this movie. ♪ ♪

c-span: what's the time period here? >> guest: this is before the civil war. and this is, you know what's known as part one of the movie and what not. and the notion here is to show that they're kind of -- you're right, demeaning roles be but they're a fun loving bunch of slaves. there's a certain harmony about it. and peace and well being in a way. this is part of like the looking back to the, you know, pre-civil war years that are part of the so-called lost cause and the nostalgia for a time that wasn't so bad really for everybody. c-span: and where is this actual location? >> guest: this is in the functional town of piedmont, south carolina. it's in south carolina. finish. c-span: one of the things you notice when you watch the movie is that some blacks are actually black people and others are black face, white people.

why the mixture? >> guest: you know, i don't know exactly why griffith chose to do that. the overwhelmingly majority of actors, i mean were white actors in black face. and certainly any of the, you know, major characters who were or black in the movie are white actors in black face. c-span: you know you're talking about the review, the leaking of the story to the woman at new york times -- the l.a. times grace kingsley, let me just use a quote from back then. and now comes the protest of the dark -- darkies and the interference of the police against exhibition of the picture. how regular did you find that word used back then? >> guest: all the time. i mean, this is a move of i have that opened first in l.a. in february, was screamed at the white house, went -- screened at the white house, went to new york in march of 1915 and then headed to boston where this was this amazing titanic battle. and reviews everywhere however

almost universally were just fawning over the movie. i think -- and then also in the same breath very critical of the black protests that were starting to develop and snowball, so to speak, and climaxed in boston. yeah, it was dismissive and hostile. like the quote you just read. compare that to, like, later in the year when i think it was a reviewer in the atlanta constitution who after seeing the movie wrote a rave review saying, you know greece had its homer, we have our d.w. griffith. c-span: how did you get to this as a book? >> guest: as a book? i have to say i was aware of the film. earlier we mentioned certainly aware of it from college and film studies, but it was trotter who grabbed my attention. i was about five years ago and i can't remember the article that i was reading but it made a reference to monroe trotter of

boston. a newspaper man and a civil rights leader. c-span: and you live in boston. >> guest: and i live in boston i'm a journalist, i teach there, i'm interested in issues of civil rights and i'm going wait, who is this guy? i didn't really know him. and that embarrassed me in a withdraw for all those reasons i just mentioned. so i started reading further and realized what a big deal he was in the early 1900s, that he's a forgotten civil rights leader who in the early 1900s would have been mentioned in the same breath with booker t. washington, w.e.b. dubois. and i'm going wow maybe there's a biography in this guy? because he also was, you know, advocating a very new strategy in the civil rights movement and challenging booker t. washington. i'd learned that there was a biography written him back in the, you know, 40 something years ago that was titled " the guardian" which is the name of his weekly newspaper. so i said, yeah, i think there's a place for a new biography.

but then i got to 1915, and i got just surface, you know in some of these references to how he was at the forefront of this extended protest against the movie, like i said that i knew about. and i said, that was my aha moment. i said that's the drama that's the story to tell and through which to capture what i think are so many big ideas about civil liberties, civil rights, film, you know, media revolution. and that's where i started to channel all my efforts. c-span: here's an excerpt and it's a civil war battle. before we get to that, and is we'll come back to monroe trotter -- >> guest: sure. c-span: -- the stoneman family and the cameron family. set that up. >> guest: okay. yeah griffith, in order to tell, you know, such a big story, the civil war and its aftermath, he chooses to tell it through two families, the camerons from this fictional town of piedmont, south carolina, and the stonemans from the north. they're a family that knew each

other before the war, there's interlocking relationships, friendships between the sons. there's a number of can kids in each family. romances between the various children. and so that's -- their story is played out both before, during and after the war. c-span: how much of this is fiction? >> guest: all of that, yeah. c-span: here is a civil war battle. let's watch. >> guest: sure. ♪ pleasure. ♪ ♪ c-span: this is supposed to be where? >> guest: okay. the man with the sword waving it around, that's just what we said, that's the little colonel ben cameron, who is getting wounded and hurt in their charge against some of the blue coats. c-span: fella right there --

>> guest: yep, waving the flag. so it's about his courage and his bravery. c-span: you've got the union on the right and the confederates on the left. >> guest: hopefully, viewers are realizing this is, in its time amazing pieces of cutting and film making. but now see that's one of the stonemans. he's recognizing his friend from the south. and so here's a moment of, you know crossing the line here. c-span: so these two guys are friends. >> guest: yeah, yeah. the cameron from the south and the stoneman from the the north. c-span: in the end, death. others take their places, and the battle goes on into the night. >> guest: this really captures griffith and is what people were blown away by, that he was able to stage battle scenes like that. c-span: what's? >> guest: this is the aftermath of war. c-span: and the color's changed. >> guest: yeah. i mean that's, again technique for tinting and mood and the fade-out. these were all, you know

cutting edge techniques that enhanced the impact, the emotional impact of the film. c-span: why did d.w. griffith think people would sit sill for a three-hour-plus movie? >> guest: well, he was taking a chance in many ways, because it wasn't that far removed in 1905 -- ten years earlier -- were the first nickelodeons which grew explosively which featured these very short entertainments for a nickel, things that went on ten minutes. and in the intervening years, as he became a director, it was an apprenticeship for him where he, you know, the earliest films were these so-called one reelers, 10, 15 minutes long. he was directing them, he wrote scenarios more them and what not. but he was an incredibly ambitious guy who wanted to elevate film to a higher art form. and some of these techniques he and his famous cinematographer billy bitser developed.

others he heard about but he put them to a new and around thetistic use. and so -- artistic use. so it kind of culminated in 1914 when he was filming this but he was really in search of a big bang moment, of a big story in which to, you know, really spread his wings as a filmmaker and blow audiences away which he succeeded in doing. c-span: how much film making was there back then? >> guest: well, it was a growing industry, and it was an industry that had, you know, in its infancy learned that these quick turn around entertainments little comedies and what not were profitable. so and griffith was hugely successful making those more a company called biograph. but by 1913 he was at odds with the owners because, again, they wanted him to stick with the recipe. we're all making a lot of money here. but he's saying, no, we can do more with this medium. so he had a falling out and left. c-span: when did monroe trotter

first get wind of this movie? and how well did he know woodrow wilson? >> guest: well, that's two questions. let me start with the wilson one, because i love the fact that there's connective tissue in a way, between wilson and griffith which we already mention in terms of -- mentioned in terms of the screening in the white house. but a couple months before that in the end of 1914, trotter had an encounter with wilson also in the white house that i think juxtapose the two, and i think it says everything about what this dynamic here. and as i said earlier trotter supported wilson in 1912 for the presidency. by 1914 he and many black leaders in the country were appalled at the jim crow in the federal government. trotter insisted on an audience, you know, with the president and pulled every string he could to get into the white house in the late fall of 1914.

which he did. and he presented the president with a huge petition. he confronted him in a very firm trotter-like way about the segregation in the federal offices and what a betrayal this was to black america. and wilson had soured so fast. wilson couldn't believe that a black man was talking to him in this way. and he essentially, he effectively told trotter to stop and no one's ever talked to me like this. he told others in the delegation if they ever come back, they're going to have to find a new person to represent them. and he basically kicked trotter out of the white house. c-span: you have a quote from woodrow wilson in your book. when the nero delegate, trotter threatened me, i was damn fool enough to lose my temper and point them to the door. what i ought to have done would have been to listened restrain my resentment and when they finished to have said to them of course, their petition would receive participation.

no more would have been heard about the matter, but i lost my temper and played the fool. >> guest: yes. i love that letter that wilson wrote to a friend after this encounter that became big, front page news, the dust-up between a civil rights leader and the president. because that, to me, is right out of the playbook that wilson had used in his prior encounters with people like trotter. during, for example in 1912 when they met and wilson persuaded trotter to support him, you know? just kind of sawing generic things and having -- saying generic things and having him leave. he lost at that moment. and i love for that scene, too because trotter was not impressed with power. he was speaking truth to power, but here was a guy who had gone to harvard. trotter was in the las of -- class of 1895 at harvard first phi beta kappa classmates were titans of business elected officials, congressmen and what not. he was not, you know overwhelmed by the trappings of

the oval office. and he wasn't impolite. he was just making his case. wilson was just, you know unused to it. c-span: the one thing -- this has nothing to do with whether the movie's good or bad -- the one thing i did find very well done was the lincoln assassination. >> guest: oh, yeah. c-span i mean of all the times i've seen that in places, and this was back in 1915 -- >> guest: i know. and, again i think this is all about the skill and capabilities of d.w. griffith. c-span: did i read many your book they had a complete mock-up of ford's theater? >> guest: yes, in the new hollywood. this is where lots of these, you know, most of the film was filmed in hollywood which griffith had gone to and started working in 1910. so this is also a story that, you know gets at the early days of hollywood. c-span: we've got a minute behalf to show there's a lot more to it.

>> guest: sure. c-span: what leads up to where we won't see is the guard sitting outside box where abraham lincoln is sitting, and then john wilkes booth comes around and shoots him. let's watch a little and you can explain what's going on. >> guest: sure. ♪ ♪ >> guest: that is john wilkes booth right there. c-span: as you look at the box there on the left was major rathbone and his wife, but is that mary todd lincoln over there? >> guest: yes. c-span: where we see it in a second, that's the derringer? >> guest: yes. what i go through is film making technique here. close-up, the cross-cutting. it used to be, again, this was revolutionary in a way. it used to be you put a camera down, and then you had actors sort of performing in front of it. c-span: that's the stage. >> guest: yep.

c-span: and here comes the assassination. >> guest: and shifting points of view yep. c-span: john wilkes was jumping onto the stage. off he goes. >> guest: and cutting between perspective close-ups. there's that -- ben cameron who happens to be there there's your narrative thread. ♪ ♪ c-span: it looks just like ford's theater does. >> guest: yeah no. they -- yeah. i've seen still photographs, plenty of them, of the set they created. now again, back in 1915 the audience, this was spell binding, viewing this kind of film making. and the music, i mean, you can hear the music. that was really important to griffith. this is an original score. he had a leading composer create. c-span: you said in your book for instance, in boston there was a 40-piece orchestra? >> guest: 28, i think, in boston, but in some cities it

was 40 piece. c-span: in the movie theater? >> guest: and it helped to create the magic of it all. ushers and usherettes were seated in period costumes when people took their seats and given programs that the movie would start in 20 minutes or something. c-span: how many people acted in the movie plus all the extras. >> >> guest: well, i know, for example, griffith who was again, i think one of the groundbreaking in public relations as well and self-promotion talked about having 25,000 extras, for example, in the civil war scenes, some of which we saw. that was just wildly untrue. again, he used a lot of tricks with the camera to make it seem like thousands of soldiers. but i don't have an accurate count in the end to include extras in major roles and what not. c-span: how long did can it take him to make the film? >> guest: he started shooting

because he has a sense of history, july 4th, 1914, and he was done by the end of the year. c-span: did you plan your book? because this was the 100th anniversary -- >> guest: i did. yeah. the centennial is next year. i wanted a story that both, you know gave good notice to all that accomplishment and what not, but also to put it in a larger context of its times. not just in terms of civil rights, but also the issue of censorship. c-span: the public is watching this we taped it in '14 but it's being watched in 2015. so 2015's the 100th anniversary. how much did it cost? >> guest: that's another thing that griffith, you know exaggerated immensely. and i think it was, in the end, about $100,000 budget. but he had that. he put it to half a million dollars. c-span: and how much would that be today? >> guest: i'd have to get a

calculator. c-span: where did he get his money? >> guest: he partnered up after he left biograph with a producer named harry aiken, and he got his primary financing from that producer. but as he went overbudget in late summer and early fall, he started bartering and cutting deals with certain folks in california like, well, the man who owned clunes auditorium, for example, he sold an interest in the film in exchange for some cash. so he was able to close the budge gap with some of that -- budget gap with some of that creative financing. c-span: how old was monroe trotter and d.w. griffith and dixon back in 1915? >> guest: in 1915 trotter and griffith were just a couple of years apart in their mid 30s. dixon was the elder statesman of the crew because he was well into his 40s at that point. and he had been an enormously

successful novelist and playwright in the early 1900s writing -- and he was, you know, a virulent racist. and the klansmen, upon which the movie was based, was the third in a trilogy of books that explored those themes in the context of civil war and after. c-span: who at the time, took this movie on besides the black folksesome. >> guest: well, they had the support of a number of liberals and supporters of civil rights in the white community. the difficult thing the thing that got a little bit tricky there is because one of strategies of the protesters and trotter's goal in boston was to get the film censored which from our perspective in the 21st century, you you know, gave me a lot of discomfort as a newspaper and a first amendment guy like, you know, why is a newspaper editor going, using that kind of means? and at the time they did lose

some support among white liberals and civil libertarians because of that goal of censorship. c-span: going to show a clip. is it the south carolina legislature -- >> guest: ing yes, it is. c-span: -- which is dominated by ex-slaves. can you give us a set up? >> guest: sure. part two is really heart of the protest in the sense that this is where the blacks are just appalled by the portrayal of freed slaves. and this is a scene showing what happens when you give former slaves, you know, the right to vote, the right to be elected, the right to govern. it's a scene in the south carolina legislature where their first and primary order of business is to pass a bill allowing for interracial marriage because again, in griffith's hands black men are solely interested in pursuing and having white women. c-span: it appears when you see this that the whole legislature

except for a couple people are black. is that true? >> guest: no. that's the other thing. i mean, griffith claimed and defended both during and after the film and for years later about the historical accuracy. i don't have the numbers at my fingertips but, you know, he has this scene that blacks overwhelmingly control i think his numbers will be in the film, but that's just not true. there's no legislature in the south that, i think, in reconstruction that was dominated by blacks. c-span: should -- say to the audience if you haven't seen this, this is part of where you begin to see the stereotyping of black folks back in those days. >> guest: absolutely. c-span: so you have to watch closely as to what they're doing. >> guest: and it happens kind of fast. c-span: yeah. it does happen fast yeah. ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ c-span: among other things we see the drinking, eating chicken -- >> guest: fried chicken.

c-span: -- and feet on the desk. >> guest: feet on the desk, you know, picking their toes. yeah. i mean, this is what happens when you free slaves. c-span: that's what he said. >> guest: that's what griffith -- and historically accurate. c-span: they passed a bill that all whites had to salute negroes? >> guest: right. not true. c-span: and up in the balcony you see a few white people. >> guest: yeah. now the besieged and helpless white minority. c-span: is and all of this, when they looked at it at the white house, they liked this? >> guest: yeah. wilson liked it a lot. ducks son and griffith, you know -- dixson and griffith, you know, wilson had written a history of america then. they had drawn on to, you know using quotes from the book as some of their intertitles. so they knew how to play to wilson's ego. c-span: was there a time when woodrow wilson saw this after

this that he, did he ever condemn it? >> guest: not that i came across. ♪ ♪ >> guest: for months they tried to deny that, you know misdirection. tried to keep quiet or deny they'd even had the white house screening. it became a political -- c-span: the fellow there in the middle is called a mulatto. silas lynch. >> guest: yeah. c-span: you can't -- he's right there in the middle. >> guest: sure. c-span: now, what's the -- we're going to see some of this later, but what's the politics of having a, quote-unquote, mulatto sent down to south carolina to be elected lieutenant governor? >> guest: yeah. just to show that blacks are in charge and control, you know? the diminution of white blood, mulatto, and he accompanies the -- a carpetbagger to become

governor of south carolina, and he's lieutenant governor silas lynch. he's one of the main black characters in the film. c-span: and he was sent down from the stoneman -- >> guest: yeah. the character of the white family from the north, he becomes governor of south carolina. that's again the narrative thread that griffith is playing to in terms of the two families one from the south one from the north. c-span: we see the stoneman family from the beginning and austin stoneman is a congressman -- >> guest: yes. c-span: and who's he supposed to be? >> guest: thaddeus stephens -- c-span: who was? >> guest: the radical republican of great fame. c-span: and he was trying to dictate to the south? >> guest: yeah. in implementing the freedom, you know, for the slaves and what not in a punitive way against, you know the whites and plantation life in the south. c-span: how many times have you watched the movie? >> guest: i think entirely? there was film, you know film course in college, there was a

time when i saw it as a newspaper reporter working undercover on an assignment involving the klan where the film was shown at a klan meeting -- c-span: and you were in the room? >> guest: i was in the room. i was a young reporter in hartford connecticut, in david duke's klan recruiting members in connecticut of all places. he gave press conferences during the day but held a secret meeting that night and it's a meeting i infiltrated, and he surprise me and, i think, the other dozen or so people when he pulled out "birth of a nation" as a screening and propaganda and proof as why you should join the klan. so that was -- c-span: what year was that? >> guest: that was 1979. so for me, you know, when it came to writing this book, you know the first viewing in college i came away understanding its place in film history. in terms of film it can anemic. it was that -- technique. it was that second viewing where

it hit me, obviously, the propaganda power. c-span: did they cheer? >> guest: oh, yeah. c-span: when you saw the screening is and you were undercover, the people in the room cheered? >> guest: yes. because when they got to a scene with duke's racist narration moments like see how one black man can -- i mean one white man can fight off a handful of blacks? ld be cheering in the room and what not. c-span: did they ever figure out who you were? >> guest: yeah. because i wrote about it soon after ward. idea was to reveal both who was the connecticut leader and the number of connecticut members because duke in husband press conferences -- his press conferences was claiming this drive had been enormously successful. he had 300 plus new members. but at this secret meeting there were only a dozen or so biker types. so it blew his whole, you know pr thing right out of the water. c-span: here is gus chase, a

scene with flora who are they? >> guest: gus is a freed slave -- c-span: but he's a white man in black face in this thing. >> guest: yes, absolutely. i think he embodies and symbolizes -- because he's lusting after flor rah, a maid in virginal young white girl and, i think -- c-span: flora cameron? >> guest: yes. c-span: who is a part of the cameron family. we saw her brother -- >> guest: her brother is the -- fought for the confederacy. and gus, i think, is again, the symbol of, you know what any black man -- according to griffith -- is after. and that is a white woman. and so he spends the -- it's one of the most famous scenes in the movie, the so-called gus chase scene. because he, gus confronts plora says basically i want you. flora pushes him away and wants

nothing to do with him, and gus chases after her, and it goes on for five or six minutes. c-span: we've got a couple minutes of it so let's watch it so people can see what we're talking about. >> guest: sure. okay. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ c-span: who's that that just ran into the -- >> guest: that's her brother, ben cameron, when she's missing, and he's searching for her. c-span: gus is an ex-slave -- >> guest: yep. c-span: was he a northerner --

obviously, a southerner. from south carolina? >> guest: yes. c-span: she's running away. how does her brother -- do you have any idea how her brother knows gus is trying to find her? >> guest: he found her scarf. she's missing. she was supposed to have been home and what not. and they'd had trouble with gus a little bit earlier in the terms of him being predatory, stalking flora. now this is -- she would rather go to the edge of a cliff. ♪ >> guest: see how he's hunched over? there's something almost gorilla-like ape-like -- c-span: and that's all part of griffith's plan. >> guest: portrayal, yeah. gets more down on the ground. c-span: still can't find his sister. >> guest: no. and rather than submit to gus

maiden flora would prefer to jump to her death. c-span: how important is the gus part of this whole story in the three hours? >> guest: well it's hugely important because it really does capture dramatically -- because that scene really had a huge impact on audiences. they were horrified that this innocent virginal young girl, flora, would have to jump to her death to escape the clutches of a black man. it was so inflammatory in so many different ways. this was the scene that, you know the black protesters trotter, that was, you know, of their list of problematic moments, this was always number one. c-span: you said that in boston i know they tried to stop is it

in boston. >> guest: yeah. c-span: trotter did. but movie actually played 365 days? >> guest: 360 showings -- no, not 365 days 360 performances because they had matinees. so it opened in april and closed in october. c-span: and how much did it cost in those days to go to the movie? >> guest: well, you know again, there were the nickelodeons just a few years earlier, but 25 cents or what not. the orr amazing thing that griffith is known for is that he charged the unheard-of price of $2. c-span: back then. >> guest: back then. you could find quarter seats at times, but the prevailing price in new york and boston and then beyond was $2. and people, you know, he was filling the theaters, you know, matinees had extra performances. i mean, it was it blew everyone away. c-span: i asked you how many

times you'd seen it, you said two. is there a third? >> guest: more recently, in connection with the book i watched it, watched it from beginning to end once. but i have watched so many, you know jumped in at different scenes throughout the research. especially, i mean the gus chase scene, i can't tell you how many times i've seen that. c-span: here is the fight scene with african-americans shooting a white guy in the back and gus flees. it's just a minute, we'll watch this. >> guest: okay. ♪ ♪ c-span: you were saying -- >> guest: david dukes. yeah there's white men fighting off several blacks. this was a moment when david duke was jumping up and down --

c-span: i mean, the whole point is, and what's the purpose of this white guy coming into and there are all blacks many this -- looking for gus? >> guest: yeah, they're looking for gus, and they're also, you know -- c-span: gus shooting the white guy? >> guest: yeah. now he's wanted. lawlessness of blacks. c-span: and the idea that a white man could lick all of those blacks in that room. >> guest: yes. and pulls out a gun, went out and shot him down. c-span: how effective was monroe trotter in stopping anything in regard to this? did he get anything changed in the moviesome. >> guest: not of any real substance. this the boston hearings before mayor, you know james michael curley the legendary boston mayor, curley, in the end, disappointed trotter by saying the movie could go on. contextually, i think trotter had every reason to expect that

curley who practically coined the phrase banned in boston in any number of ways. but this gus scene curley told griffith that that was the one scene that gave him a little bit of a pause. he asked griffith if he would trim that a bit. and griffith gave him some lip service, as he did in other cities. he was always tinkering with his film anyway so sometimes he made cosmetic cuts, and sometimes he didn't but said he did. or if he did he'd restore it. it was kind of a living document, so to speak. but i think, you know, so trotter wasn't able to stop the film he wasn't able to change it in any real way. but what he did accomplish and the other protesters who were part of the local branch of the naacp, was to certainly draw attention to the movie as not represent t the tef of their race -- representative of their race. that this, you know they understood trotter and the

other protesters, duboise being one of them, understood they're probably going to help sell tickets by causing controversy and demonstrating and what not against the film. but the alternative was worse to stand by silently and let this movie that griffith claims is history be, you know, the unchallenged view of the civil war and reconstruction and blacks in america? that was intolerable to them. c-span: how long were you with "the boston globe"? >> guest: i was will for 19 years. c-span: and what are you doing now? >> guest: i teach journalism at boston university. c-span: how many students? >> guest: in any given term, probably 30 or 40. c-span: what are you teaching them? >> guest: journalism, writing, law and ethics. c-span: how many of your student ises watch this film? >> guest: i don't know. i've talked about it in class. they've certainly heard me talk about it over the last three years as i've worked on this project. some of them have never heard of it, which surprises me.

but if you go into -- i'm in the college of communications which is also home to the film and television department, and this film is still taught in the american film history course. c-span: here is a clip of the ku klux klan bringing discuss so-called -- bringing gus so-called, to justice. 1:15. let's watch. >> guest: sure. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> guest: you can see why trotter and all the other protesters were appalled by the film. c-span: the lieutenant governor was the mulatto. >> guest: silas lynch. c-span: sent down by stoneman from pennsylvania or from -- >> guest: sure, yeah. part of the -- c-span: that's on his -- >> guest: doorstep. the answer to blacks and carpetbaggers. c-span: what happens to all those -- i do want to ask you about monroe trotter and d.w.

griffith at the end of their lives. what happens in the movie to all the characters? how many people died from the different families? >> guest: well a number -- i actually can't give you an actual head count. a number of the sons from both sides die during the war. hue tent ben cameron -- lieutenant ben cameron, he's on one of those horses under one of those hoods as a result of his sister's death flora who jumps to her death. he found the klan. and the kl a an the climax of the movie is the klan portrayed at savior of the south, as a healing force. that's how griffith portrays the klan, as a healing force, who brings order to the chaos that's been created by freed slaves who are undeserving of freedom can of voting rights of any trappings of civilized being.

the klan rides to the rescue as some of the family members are trapped by, in a cabin and being stalked by black troops and what not. c-span: i found this on youtube. has absolutely no connection to your book or -- and i'm not sure who the person is. >> guest: okay. c-span: but her name is mercedes, and i thought it'd with interesting to run it because she is a black woman -- a young woman and a critic of movies. >> guest: yeah. c-span: she decided in this case to critique this movie. let's watch a minute of it. >> guest: sure. >> oh hi. this is classic critiques with mercedes. i'm mercedes. and today, guess what? i'm critiquing "birth of a nation." this movie is a lot of stereotype, so if you're not comfortable with that, i wouldn't suggest you watch it.

d.w. griffith shows black people in a really negative light. thieves, rapists murderers. they actually have a white actor in black face raping a white woman. a lot of times in this movie you'll see griffith displaying the black people as the one-dimensional characters shucking and jiving people outside. do i suggest you see this film? absolutely. historically, it's still one of the must-see films. however, the content is very racial, so be prepared. and it's three hours long. it's pure fiction. >> guest: that's great. i like that. and, you know, and she's -- you know, she talks about portrayal the stereotyping of blacks and what not. and the thing that always baffles me is, you know, because griffith defended his think film. this was his view of history. that was what he ended up learning about the war from his father who was a great confederate soldier. but all around him when the

protests are happening he's being confronted by the likes of monroe trotter who aren't represented in the film in any way. someone who's smart, articulate, accomplished. it's almost like how blind could griffith be not to recognize that it's one-dimensional stereotyping throughout the film when all around him are now protesters saying, telling the director this is not right, this is not the whole story, this the not even, you know the beginning of the story. c-span: when our local content vehicles move around the country, they do history on local areas and this they found in waco, texas -- >> guest: okay. c-span: this is, this really happened in 1916, and our producer mark vargas suggested we look at this as a way of seeing something that happened instead of the fiction of this movie. >> and he was mutilated, you know, in many different ways. and then they doused him in coal oil and started a fire at the base of the tree, and they would put him down in the fire and then pull the chain and raise

him up out of the tour so more people -- out of the fire so more people could see what was happening. and every time they did that, a big cheer came up as one reporter said as if the crowd had come from a football game where they had won a huge victory. and unfortunately, it took him a while to diement at one point he kicked himself off his funeral pyre, and they had to drag him back on. finally, all that was left was a charred torso and a head and some bits of limbs. and someone came along on a white horse a couple of hours afterwards and lassoed the remains and dragged them around the street and the head pell off and was put on -- head fell off and was put on the head doorstep of a prostitute. >> guest: unfortunately, that's not, wasn't an uncommon scene in that period. lynching was a national horror. and it was something that was

very much on the minds of the protesters trotter duboise and the new naacp when this film came out, it would inspire an already worrisome uptick in the number of lynchings. the naacp was tracking them ida b. wells, another civil rights leader, was tracking lynchings. that was alarming development around 1915, they were going up again. and the film, "birth of a nation," is so inflammatory that that was a big part of the protests. it's going to inright even further lynchings -- incite even further lynchings. but 1915, the klan in this country had pretty much fizzled out, but by the end of this year the film which griffith had first moved through the north and some kind of film campaign, moved south, it opened in atlanta in early december of 1915, and within days a man by

the name of william simmons saying later that he had been inspired by movie took a number of confederates, i mean supporters, and they went to stone mountain, burned a cross, and it was and revived the clap. in short order, it grew -- the klan. in short order it grew expo exponentially. c-span: where are you from originally? >> guest: connecticut. c-span: where'd you go to school? >> guest: harvard. c-span: and so did monroe trotter. >> guest: he was a few years ahead of me. [laughter] c-span: you talk about monroe trotter and how he died. >> guest: yeah. in terms of his career, 1915, i think, was his high water mark. he had founded a radical newspaper in 1901 to take on booker t. washington's conciliatory accommodation civil rights strategy. and by 19 -- and to assert a more, you know direct we have to get in the white man's face,

we have to hit the streets. i mean, the protests around this movie in 1915, there are archival photos in the boston newspapers. 3,000 blacks marching on the statehouse. and in my research i'm going what year is this again? 1915? 1960 something? so he was, in many ways way ahead of his time. but 1915 after that a couple things happened. first his wife geraldine trotter, died in 1918 from the flu pandemic. and he was never the same. in a personal way, he was a broken man. they had been inseparable and i probably should have mentioned her earlier in terms of getting the newspaper out being by his side. women were very much part of the protests against the movie and what not. so he struggled along in a big way in the years after his wife's death. the other thing in terms of why he has become kind of lost to time is he was overshadowed by the naacp which he would not

join. in 915 -- 1915 turns out to be a hugely pivotal year in the naacp gaining traction. look at the numbers at the beginning of the year, and at the end -- i don't have them on my fingertips -- the number of new members, a lot of which occurred because of the protests against this movie as it moved throughout the country, it was a breakout year for the naacp. but trotter would not be part of it because he felt very strongly that an organization created for the advancement of colored people should be, it could be integrated, but it should be run by blacks. and it wasn't then. in its early years the top people in the naacp were white liberals. and he felt that sent the wrong message. c-span: so in his last few years -- >> guest: he made it into the 1930s, and he was in his early 60s. he was a broken man health wise he was coming apart. the paper was barely making it out. he lived on his own in a rooming house, and he was known to be agitated and worrisome would

walk around the flat t roof that they had triple deckers in boston, and he either slipped or fell to to his death. it was on his birthday. there's a lot of the early reports in the paper said he jumped, it was a suicide. the family always said he would never do that. i think there's a strong case could be made that, you know the timing of it on his birthday and what not and he was -- his failing health, that he may well have jumped to his death. c-span: how long did d.w. griffith -- >> guest: you know, he lived longer. i can't remember exactly off the top of my head how old he was when he died, but he retired as elder statesman and lived in hollywood, you know, for a number of years. i think it was in the -- c-span: says here, i wrote down in 1948 -- >> guest: '48. okay, i was going to say a little earlier. c-span: did he ever have another success? >> guest: knock like "birth of a

nation." he could write his own ticket, and he made movies that never matched the money-making power of "birth of a nation." but he went on to make movies for many many years. and, again he indices piewtedly and deservedly has a huge place in american film history. c-span: got another book you're writing. >> >> guest: i do actually. i'm always working on something. c-span: can you tell us what it is? >> guest: no, not now. c-span: and you did how many books on whitey bulger? >> guest: oh, gosh. two books. black mask which is essentially, about whitey's corrupt ties to the fbi the black mask years and its sequel is called whitey which is a full-blown biography the life story. c-span: our guest has been dick lehr." birth of a nation: how a legendary filmmaker and a crusading editor reignited america's civil war. as we close out, we're going to run just near the very end, just

a minute or so so people can see how this movie ended, and it can be watched by anybody on youtube if you want to see it. >> guest: yes. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ .. z

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