ometimes at a great personal cost while supporting their families and famous husbands. and even changed history. ...

each of your materialized jury worlds with a single flashback on consumed income group some of them still in charge of collecting the revenue to pay for the national defense. >> this is a sweep of history that talks about he went we went from 1% of their income being collected prior to the american revolution. in london they were paying over

20%. we were moving along. over time where it got more repetitive and the economy slowed. >> we were doing very well and moved away from the policy. the solution is part of it is not things you do today to fix things tomorrow. i do think we can look forward to the time perhaps you didn't have an income tax until 1913. also, in the book i talk about is doing things at the state level that becomes a model for federal activity. term limits then hit the

congressman which is very powerful. transparency at the national level followed at transparency in the state. we have nine states with no income tax. >> host: north carolina -- air moving towards -- >> guest: another ten or so are moving to phase out the tax. north carolina is in that direction, mississippi the house voted to follow the model as the revenue comes income and additional revenue beyond the two or 3% growth to phase down the income tax. what happens in the states without such a wretched and additional money comes in because there is growth or capital gains taxes and the labor unions spend it all and

never think through what happens it shows up magically and disappears to the special interest. >> guest: you go state by state. that's where half of them would know. so at the national level you could think about altering federal. we have nine states with no income tax and i think we will get there over the next ten to 15 years and at that point we thought we always had an income tax in arizona and oklahoma. we need one of the federal level at the federal level and i think if we actually looked to form the government, maybe or not. we keep moving in that direction. >> host: people will be skeptical. >> guest: dot tomorrow or next year.

it's a long-term scenario. it took decades and it will take decades to fix. >> host: more of the short-term concern is what you started the book with a end in the run-up run up to the 2012 election. is that part of what drove the choice? >> guest: we discussed the decision by the bureaucrats come bureaucrats come at a the politically appointed your credits to go after the growing tea party movement and the united status for the bank account and legally raise money and grow into the state institutions.

the tea party started in 2009. and they would have told you at the time that it couldn't happen and i knew from experience the american people would rise up against the tax increase proposition 13. the proposition two and a half in massachusetts, proposition 213 property taxes. they didn't revolt in the previous ten to 15 years when it got out of hand and then the taxes rose to be. they waited until the taxes increased or i thought we would wait until they would spend a lot of money and i would go look at that. the american people sent that all of that spending was going to lead to tax increases and didn't wait for the tax hikes.

the followed but it was the first anti-spending movement in history. first come anti-spending movement i can find and when they did that they had 602,000 rallies that we could document around the country. it's a wonderful study that was put out in hartford and university of sweden. >> guest: there was a study that said here's where you can have the tea party rally. what was the difference in the voter turnout in the money raised for race for political campaigns and the numbers of volunteers. the additional votes came out in

2010. the left is always doing rallies and that's because they don't have jobs. why do they go to rallies? this is bigger than me. you have friends. >> host: the narrative that they have been a movement to start it was extra turf organized by the evil billionaires and that there were the local variations of driven out by the local weather on the schedule and i think it shows you how organic and a lot of it was. >> guest: at first they said they didn't watch the rallies.

i organized a fortune 500 company. iowa to try to find these, but we have never seen any of them before. i went to some of the early rallies and people said how many have ever been to the clinical rally and ten to 15% of people would raise their hand. they have never done this before. 2010 because the teen party surge in voter turnout. and it was at that point that the senators and presidents were screaming out loud at something needs to be done. and lois lerner gave a speech on my birthday october 19, 2010, just before. and she said they are all telling me i have to do something. so, people are looking for the

e-mail. you don't need the e-mail. she said out loud you could see it in the letters that were sent and in the president's comments that there was something wrong that needs to be stopped and her comment was the need me to do something. we really need to make some decisions. this is crazy. the general shouldn't talk about that. they harassed people that were trying to set up the associations we could have the group. they didn't have the growth of the it party groups believe that we did in 1978 and 89 or 80. the groups to this day that were formed had bank accounts and an office and the major players in massachusetts, california and other states. obama and lois lerner succeeded

on the tea party movement so that it couldn't replicate and 12 and had the day it might have turned out different if there had been an upsurge of republican votes. >> host: key was up by a 1 million obama was down 3 million. but there was a margin of 4 million. and before we saw the surge something like that it should have built on yourself, not just replicated itself. there is a serious argument that that was a major factor. you can't have part of the government playing politics against the american people. they didn't do enough to make it happen.

>> host: many of the people that work in these agencies i think self identify as liberals. why do you think that is and why do conservatives even win control of the when control of the federal government that is such a hard time innovating these agencies. >> guest: there were the patriots, liberty up against loyalists and friends of government. so they've always been friends of government. the friends of the government were the people that wanted to stay with britain and the government brought an army to try to let them win. what happens when you have sons of liberty today, conservatives and friends of the status of a.

it subsidizes the organized labor and environmental groups in the hundreds of dollars. is it -- you tilt the playing field, conservatives or republicans tend not to vote for the government they want to work for themselves or the private sector. the government is a very static career, you know what you're going to be making ten years from now. there's no such thing as i am twice as good as productive as i make twice as much which could have been in the rest of the world. what you do know this is what nixon said to be irs what do tommy give me the tax returns they leave that to the press when kennedy and johnson did it.

what bothers me about the corruption is not just a political hack appointed by obama. people are still using your own their own gmail accounts. if the data could be on the accounts this is hillary clinton asked the irs. hundreds or maybe thousands of people with your data and mine and the american people. we know they shared some conservatives that don't know less with opposition groups to attack them and bother them. you are quite right that the culture is such that they are friends of government and friends of the people and of the

government they see themselves as loyal to the state rather than the nation and they serve the interest. >> host: i get the sense that you would like to change that. part of your book is about how to get there, but it's about leave it alone coalition. how do you see that organizing process and end up bearing fruits. if anyone would deal with the one solution we would when. what if your is your project doesn't win or work what happens

to. think you could do things you could do by introducing legislation at the state level. >> host: . they are about different types of tax reform. we ought to be moving towards the taxing income at one time and i've won rate. that could be a fair tax and this could be a flat income tax act zero and raise the taxes and

places which is where we were for half of the countries. it's the idea that we can't go there that strikes me as ridiculous. maybe you don't go there. maybe you could live with the income tax if it wasn't run by lois lerner and it was 5% instead of 15% and how they dealt with it. and a lot of things could be moved to the state level, not a national the national level. so there are lots of things that we need to do to move in the right direction. we own trillions of dollars of stuff under the ground. >> host: but doesn't enjoy more bipartisan support, certainly not the voice of the extreme right. at the lead editorial it is precisely about this dialogue with western countries own and they can just sell off and get rid of all of their debt or lower the taxes.

why do you think there isn't a broad support for the flex >> guest: one of the projects i run is the tax increase pledge and in the middle of the book i talk about here's the problem we got into and within the rules of the hat that they had setting up the guard rail which says no net tax and the elected officials say i would oppose and vote against any net tax increase you could do any reforms you want as long as it isn't a net tax increase. it was written to help us an and act 1986 law what if the rates pop back up again and leave them high. we have the congressman and senators in writing as long as they were in the house and the senate he would vote against any efforts to raise the rates were broadened the base.

we have the majority of the house and the senate who signed the pledge never to raise taxes a thousand state legislators and governors defined either as governors or senators and kept it. and bush hasn't raised taxes when he was governor and he got the decision which is why he won the primary and won the general and then he broke it in the last. he threw over a perfectly good presidency and kept it. take the pledge and keep it. the problem was the commitment

because they wouldn't take it in new hampshire and that is when he lost. he was 14 points down when he said read my lips and announced he was running and wouldn't raise taxes. he wouldn't have been nominated or had run the general in that commitment. it's when he broke it but he made it impossible for himself to be trusted on anything and to get re- elected. i think at the end of the day jeb bush will make a commitment and it will be in writing and to the american people. that's the important part. >> host: did you worry in the book you discussed by senators initiatives to be peeled the ethanol -- >> guest: there was an effort and pledge that became a great wall of china beyond which they could move which was from the

presidency from 94 until 2009 there was no tax increase, the longest period with no tax increase its only when it's only when they were all democrats in 1993 and again in the 2009 when they passed the tax increase. that period as soon as they got control of the house increased again. the reason you say no tax increases is to force the discussion about spending reform and government reform and prioritizing. if the tax increases aren't an option, the government never reforms, just all the things we've been doing some smart, some stupid. it just keeps accumulating the articles and there's never an

effort to decide whether some of this stuff doesn't work anymore. the pledge is what forced to the sequester and do u. live under for the next ten years. because of that the people that care about the national defense talk about the legislation to reduce the number of civilian and pleased at the pentagon at about 100000 say $85 million in five years, 170 billion in ten years for a lot of what you need to get to the sequester without reducing the number of people in uniform or the number of planes and tanks. but you never have these discussions and didn't. instead of reforming the government, they just added onto it. what we did in world war ii is set up the ante appropriations committee whose job it was to recommend on the spending.

that's why the civilian conservation corps that we have during the 30s that's why it isn't there anymore. they want to put the money in to the work projects. all of these things i remember wondering so many dumb ideas are. why didn't this become national service, why didn't it grow? because there was a committee to end the unnecessary spending. one of the recommendations i make in the book is to bring the kennedy back. senator roberts has put together legislation to that effect and i am hopeful we can get that discussed now and am active in the republican presence. >> do you worry sometimes one way around the pledge. do you see that happening for example under the senators

reform plan where on the business side there's a lot of stuff you would probably like and on the individual side they raise the rates and they want to send funds to the families. they call it a tax credit that -- a scenic >> guest: if it is refundable it is definitely spent. there are better and less good tax cuts in the world. tax deductions, tax credits are less helpful in the economic growth than the rate reduction. what they've done and that is a much improved piece of legislation banning some of them that you think about it and started with. they dramatically reduce the cost of the taxation on capital gains and dividends and so on.

>> host: >> guest: they would supercharge the economy. they spend a lot of tax credits to build political support. the progrowth part of that is actually quite impressive. the senator has a bill that's coming up in the next couple of weeks with dramatic reductions in the tax rates that also would supercharge the economy. i think that we will see a lot of strong republicans running into people that have the track records actually organize things they have to make the case that they are different and how they can compete with people. the republican bench is a very

healthy sign, and then walked, the one character they were going to run for the governor was so unpopular with his tax increase policies that the governor in the state lost. now if she wins that is okay but it does suggest they are not building the team. they didn't have the state legislators and governors. that's very troubling long-term for the modern democratic party. there are logical consequences to extend as we have seen they blocked so many governorships and so much control of the state housing. >> guest: one of the reasons

they can is because number one only the good ideas can flourish at the state levels, really stupid ideas can be enacted at the national level because if we have the minimum wage of the $50,000 a year and do it nationally it would be bad for the economy and wonder what caused that maybe it was just the weather or the federal reserve bank but if you did in vermont, everybody knows. they know that it was very if it very badly damaged the massachusetts economy. this has the advantage that the

free market limited government republicans, libertarians had which they can try things out at the school level, state choice and when one state does it cover the argument about the world and give parents rentals recent education or if you don't have an income tax or you don't have government unions in the public sector it actually works better and you can check that and run for president on that background and we now have more than 30 republican governors. the republican house and senate would have the population in the 24 red states. they have seven states that they run completely. california is one of them and then there are six others. hawaii and delaware and connecticut. there is a challenge in that they don't have control of the state bodies.

>> guest: the policies don't work and they are moving to the red states. >> guest: >> host: it is governor. -- >> guest: i've been governor 14 years as people move to my state. he has a very strong run. there is a lot of money in their somebody made the case on the people with a lot of several land. how do you see the future for that? >> guest: hold the pledge.

as long as they are off the table, then by spending that needs to occur in the free and open society courts are finding them running the roads to have them do it. they want to build more roads or spend more money on the roads. there's more spending on the roads and the roads won't get bigger. or they will get a gas tax increase but it has to come down to south carolina by the larger amount. you turn the spending interest national defense into your ally in reforming the government and that is particularly true

selling assets. the pentagon owns the lot of the airwaves spectrum. the position is to free it up so there's all that stuff to get down to the fraction. if we see a piece of it back i would be talking to the senators there are hundreds of millions of dollars available. say you restructure and sell it and it goes into the pentagon budget beyond what the sequester allows. but we are not coming across where they are spent but you've got that money and you don't have to cut.

then all of a sudden the pentagon instead of porting the spectrum because someday we might meet at which they've been saying that for 60 years. i would rather have a shiny new plan. let's sell that off. it's the base structure effort which they came up with the pentagon says here are a series we don't need so it is bipartisan and regional and nobody feels they are getting screwed and they pick 30 of these bases and say these can be closed but the pentagon doesn't want it anymore so we are not taking some important thing away and then both the house and the senate voted to overturn the decision they can be restructured and closed we've saved tens of billions of

dollars and there is another to be done. there's half a billion that we are spending on the leased property they are not using now in the pentagon. it's those kind of reforms that only will happen if the sequester holds and we say no to the tax increases. i spoke with one of the leading congressmen that deals with military spending and i said i want to help you on this spending restraint that you've got so tell me what phone to the congress do and they will fight to get that done and every proposal that i've put out, which is something that i know there's being offered somewhere to save money he wasn't interested because it didn't solve all his problems and at the end of the conversation this chairman said what can i do to be helpful here, tell everybody there isn't a penny to be saved in the pentagon.

that person is no longer in office. even though it would save tens of hundreds of millions of dollars he wasn't interested in putting any effort into that with the sequester, the new guys in charge of the pentagon are very interested in the presentation on the hill. tony about the savings ideas. it was very interesting to some of the senators. with a spending restraint on the sequester all of a sudden, people who care about the national defense become the ally of the taxpayers are not their enemy. so, i think how do we get stuff sold off bikes we need more

money. there is about a trillion dollars in oil and natural gas and minerals under the ocean under american property, government property in the government-owned land. imagine if we had the expansion on federal land as we had on private land. and you know, 100 plus% of all of the growth in the legal and natural gas production took place on state and local land because under obama -- it has gone down on federal property. so, they've had an explosion on energy production because you couldn't stop it. we have to cut the budget or we could responsibly go for the natural gas on federal land.

you've seen these things. you poke a hole in the ground. it doesn't burn down the forest. that's how we reform. don't waste taxes and then the spending interest will fight each other to push other people away from the table. it would be helpful for these purposes of if the president were on board with it at while. what do you make of the base that you said hillary presumed on the democratic side would you think of the republicans? >> guest: you look around, chris christie new jersey. he got a reform of the pension system that saves him hundred $30 billion over 30 years in the underfunded liability. he vetoed the democratic house

vetoed every tax increase that they thought of in the tax increase that lapsed and it's been a difficult state. scott walker you would have thought that wisconsin was as blue as new jersey but in fact they now have the republican house and governor and be changed the law in that state. the public sector and the changes he made include you have to have an election every year to continue the organizing your network disappears because all of the people that are paying any dues in wisconsin have never voted. it was created 50 years ago and they were just told you are here condition the appointment. teachers government workers are paying to make $50,000 a year. that is now voluntary and they can't withhold it. it's dropped somewhere between

half and two thirds. it's been about 100000 not being part of the union and since it's a thousand dollars per person if $100 million every year out of the pockets of organized labor that is the conservative number that is high here as the unions. as a result the efforts are talking to people that are policed against. they are waiting at six to get the calls. showing up with 20 people on the bus. you have to get a lawyer down. it happened. they didn't have the money for it anymore. in. the way that the unions worked to move from pole to pole they couldn't afford to do that because they don't have the money because they can't take it without people's permission anymore. he has dramatically changed the

bar for what a successful governor looks like. if he is the president, every governor has to go through the checklist and to do that in order to be considered a republican in good standing and that would change the country. in texas, governor rick perry strong governor, 14 years as governor texas very good narrative. bobby jindal if this is going to be a campaign he did a dramatic expansion of school choice for education to the ethics law in louisiana and minnesota have couple of, the teacher hates them for it. it is a difficult state and its it's technically a republican state of democrats change but it's not a complete mindset when

they became republican. he's a serious on the spending restraint. rubio, spanish speaking would do well with the hispanic vote. winds in florida are very serious, well spoken. jeb bush was a cutting-edge governor. he was elected before that party and there was one level of expectation and he was good. he's doing stuff like this. you could do more and are expected to do more. it was completely time and.

bob dole never caught up and george herbert walker bush never caught up with the ronald reagan mindset. they were born too early. they served too early and they learned how politics work before they changed the rules. in the house and the senate -- it changes how you approach things. they took spending on earmarks which prior to that he party was to sign up. then i would look at how i had stolen from a knee money and giving it to other people and --

they would talk about how they brought money back to the district. today they are at the dinner table. it's crushing. that is a change in washington d.c.. i worry sometimes that the people that make the tea party have been don't understand how dramatically they've succeeded already in changing the way that washington works. we are heading in a different direction than we were before the tea party. >> host: a lot of people would say we started this in opposition to bail out and obamacare and obamacare is still in place. in the end of that was the means

writing source. >> guest: .biz yes we didn't have the house or the senate. we recently got the senate. we don't have a veto which means that either takes two thirds of both houses to override the veto and it takes different presidents and nobody should get frustrated because we took the house or the senate and we can't make them sign that the solution the president will not sign the abolition of obamacare. we could run radio ads. it isn't happening. there is no way to trick him into it. that's not happening. of that i think we are on track to do. they've remained in place when

people are receiving subsidies. >> guest: i worried about that in the past and i worry about it less unless now it is and how they are largely kept him come it is because another tax increase to come designed to destroy the gold plated goods insurance policies and that kicks in in 2018 so there's another way that they are going to organize the understanding of how much they are putting an end what they were going to get for health insurance and obama is taking them away from that. already they see the savings accounts efforts for the special needs.

there are 20 different taxes eight of them directly in the middle class. obamacare is full of tax is particularly as they announce. obamacare remains wildly unpopular and social security and republicans voted for it and it was popular with medicaid or medicare. this one though republicans voted for it and it is popular to this day with independent and republican. independence vote with republicans then all the republicans together won't make it work. they are in the hostility with the taxes and the mandates.

you could reform to the point that it is and obamacare anymore and it is consumer-based and patients based. they've made it easy for health savings accounts, to buy insurance across the state lines to the avoided in the states that don't have a lot of mandates and they took the bad state mandates and made them a federal problem. let people make their own decisions. take medicaid and walk rants to the states the way that we did with those with dependent children. take medicare and the bipartisan reforms that now paul ryan has put forward that will allow the competition. there's the wage and price controls that hasn't worked to cost 4,000 years with a lot of blood on the floor and the way you can have competition between

the states and between consumers and vendors the better off you are. if we say no tax increases to me to clean up the irs as well. we started talking about that. the legislation will be voted on during the week of april 14 several pieces of legislation a ticket of the death tax but these are reforms for private e-mails put into public beta. there are 500,000 hours each year used for the union purposes. so when they don't answer the phone with 60% of the phone calls the political appointees say that's because you are not giving me enough money. he has 500,000 hours which somebody calculated could be 2.3 million at that the time. get into the labor unions for free, the workers, the people.

but it's not with taxpayers dollars. we need to ban the efforts that they started which is to say that you contribute to the conservative group with think it is the gift tax to stop them. we think that -- this is a very powerful one because they were calling the donors and saying we think you may have a gift tax 25%. that is not true. i don't know maybe we shouldn't give as much of this action cycle. you could describe describe bodyweight everybody that he talks to just with a threat like that.

>> host: you mentioned the shs a. one consumption tax is to drastically expand. do you see anyone pushing that angle? >> guest: it is 529. the health savings account they tried to weaken it. they've already cut it back a little bit. there was a conflict between the two parties. they want you to save money for your home and investing in the future for your retirement and lifetime savings accounts and retirement health savings accounts, education savings accounts. and then the democrats are trying to close them down and damage them and there's even been a couple intellectuals on the left, one clinton was pushing years ago that wanted to do with argentina did and reach

into everyone's four o. one k. and attacks over the buildup and throw it into the government, one government welfare system. they would say that somebody scary. and they tried to kill 529 7 million people contributes to them for the kids and grandkids. there was a revolt. if you don't want to move towards the consumption tax. i don't think people realize that to the extent. >> guest: i try to focus on it in the book.

it's how to minimize the tax liability. you could have the flat tax you could do that ronald reagan tax reform, do what the reform wants to do which is the tax credit for the kids and capital investment. take advantage of the company's four o. one k. plan. don't overpay because when you get money back at the end of the year you get the interest-free loan. don't do that. but it's the series of the reform that is political. more people have them. in the end how do you create the coalition that will win the election to give the battles.

a lot of people i don't care if they like rhubarb or don't like rhubarb, everybody with a 529 those that one party wants to take it away. it was illegal. now 2 million are being homeschooled, 10 million americans have homeschooled in the last couple of decades. they know that one party wants to take that right away from them. they are not available as a result. there are 11 million with a concealed permit. it's in their purse and their car and they are going out going out at night, going to work late at night. in the 10 million people have consult kerry close to three years ago.

there was a huge jump in those numbers. you can get into obscure things. the democrats would abandon that. that is a lifestyle issue people feel threatened by. all of those savings have been spent vehicles the democratic party ultimately wants to take those away from you and so by alerting people that they really do want to take it away and you haven't gotten one yet you can't. once you've done it you are a different human being and saving a few thousand dollars a year. >> host: all of these numbers are big and add up to a lot of people but somehow the current president still managed to get elected twice. how would you explain that? >> guest: two things. when you did have them going after the structures created in the tea party we have such stronger candidates and by that

i need numbers of stronger candidates running for the president in 2008 and 2012 and the rest are selling books were auditioning to be radio talkshow hosts. they hope to lightning would strike and it would work but that's very, very rare. this time they can see here is what i do and you can laugh them off the stage. so i think the strength of the candidates are good. but they have to go back to an older candidate on the previous time whose claim to fame is that she married a guy that was once president and was going to run to the secretary of state that that's going to go to the memory along with all of the e-mails. she's going to go back to i was married to bill, remember him. we don't promote it that way. we don't. i'm not sure people like clinton, clinton, clinton.

it is a challenge and it is going to be very difficult. it is a boat anchor for the campaign. he was a good governor and he will have to reintroduce himself >> host: one topic you don't focus on much in your book is in the reform. i guess partially because it isn't a very original topic to include in the book and so what do you see there and do you think because of the sequester where there is no super urgent problem do you think that it's gotten harder?

>> guest: easier maybe because i refer to as the paul ryan reform that's everything except social security. the means tested programs could block granted to the states. the pensions we need to move state and local on the federal to define that the government can't lose or forget to raise the taxes. they put this together and got the bill passed. here's 10% into the four o. one k.. you want to leave you take that with you and move to another

state. they move over to the defined contribution plans, state by state in the state and local level. find that you have to have something that is sustainable. so they defined benefit all welfare programs block granted to the states, medicaid block granted states the voucher plan where everybody gets a basic benefit and then you decide how to spend the additional resources on your own and you compete. the companies compete to give you that additional add-on. that together if we don't do the plan that has passed four times in the house, the depth of

understanding and the republican congress of the plani wanted to put the congressman together and i called them and said we would like to. 20 minutes, half an hour. they said i expect every half hour meeting come have a rabid time with every republican member to walk through it all from start to finish but everyone has a tutorial. so it's not just remarkable given medicare reform. >> guest: they can explain it

to young people retired people and say this isn't a threat to you and your kids future. i think it makes all of the understanding in the world. they've always believed that there would be a grand bargain that unchanged at 40% spent by the federal government. we will take the taxes up to 30 and then we will bring 40 down to 30. they should get 50% smaller than where it is, not bigger than where it is. they voted for the reform of a single dollar of tax increases. they find that uninteresting. you never see the "washington post" write up those reforms.

the word for how we took another help increase in the promised reforms that are never delivered of course. but when the democrats had complete control they were added to the entitlement. they were reformed when they forced it three times for clinton if not the most recent fight is on medicare with real ones and then -- >> host: i think that we are out of time sadly. another hour's worth of questions but -- >> guest: is a fun book i wrote from five in the morning to aid eight in the morning over a number of months. ..