there some talk about that. even the power, the particular because i think they will blow this whole thing up but they are all fighting right now about what to do, who's going to get paid, how much in the opening cases change the future of all the because there's some money and fall but there's an antitrust issue. it's very obligated but in america we complicated business deals every day. we should be able to come up with a solution for this.

8-ball is a great example absolutely. >> i don't know why we can't have that for football and basketball. >> you could but a lot of people are making money off the backs of these guys. they want to continue. >> i be interested in hearing how the chance were treated you when you went in the meeting. i don't think he paid enough attention to it. chancellor thorpe comes in comment you could make yourself really good by thanking you and behind you back into position. could you speak to that? >> the board of governors a more important the board of trustees are really in charge. i believe that to be true. i do know how much control she has. in my opinion, that she is the face of the university at this point and it's the first female

chancellor we've had in 220 or so it's pretty exciting but she was at the mediation. she made an appearance. she was trying to do the best she could. she had a team of attorneys. i think should also like to get this behind her and i really wish just like i'd wished for holden, i wish they had more support in leadership at the university from the board of trustees and the board of governors but again big money boosters, very complicated. so think it's a system. i think we can look at just the one person or focus on a person but it's the whole system that needs, we just lost tom ross presidentpresident ross. much repair work needs to be done to i don't think we can blame it all on her. >> headed in the wrong direction.

>> we just -- it's not in here. >> as a faculty member it's easier for me to say yes i wish fulton being what it behaved differently but i know darn well that faculty should of been putting heat on the ministry all along and they've not done that and there's no excuse for it. >> that's why tenure was created. >> i'm curious about the scandals across the country, how many admissions directors or members of the admissions committee have been held accountable? how me athletic administrators or faculty members or academic administers have been held accountable? how many of them have lost their jobs? the only one i see losing the jobs are coaches and academic support people. it's totally backwards. they can't get into cannot admitted angel not have these problems. i worked at a university where many of these same kids were not

admitted because of their transcripts. >> that's right. >> i'm not going to name the university. we didn't have the same expansion problems that they have that carolina. nobody is held accountable at the upper levels. the other ones -- they the ones hiring the attorneys ended want to don't have the answer to those above them the admission committee, director. at this particular school we had an admissions director that would not let them in period. >> that is true. >> admissions director, the faculty, the committee in charge of special admits, they have flown under the radar. at unc and therefore, they fly right under the radar. they are never held accountable for anything. >> it's not going to change until that is done. i'm not one that says anybody that's marginal should not be admitted. i know of cases where one

gentleman i went with school with is now called doctor who would not have gotten in a lot of places this day and age because of the scandals. he graduated from seminary. >> this woman over here has a question. >> i have a question. i agree with everything that's been said. i'm a duke grad some going to disclose that but when some of us, to school of business and had not prepared they spend the whole, i think it's about a month to six weeks before school starts into boot camp. if you identify these people because i don't believe people but myths are any different than any of the student athletes. i know the private sector if you're looking at a private school, they have development. they are not nearly as qualified as the rest of the pool of applicants they getting. and so i think there are solutions and i have read the book. i just picked it up but there are solutions that can help and i don't sense anything is radically different from what is

already being done for development, for people in business school settings. have you looked at it at carolina to see if there's -- >> my experience by came out of the athletic department in 2010 i went into the college college of arts and sciences as an advisor. i ended up as a graduation advisor pick somebody that is a great idea to give you total access to all the records. imagine that. i don't know why they thought that was a good idea but what i saw was that the gap is much wider with athletes than it is with other students who come through may be the community college or maybe nontraditional students, but the gap in academic preparedness with our athletes for us what i gets as much wider. my comment really is we don't know all of this intuitive transparency and disclosure. you disclose to his you were from duke. we never disclose what our

athletes transcripts look like because we hide behind the love says we need to protect it. but we can identify and talk about reggie and talk of a distressed it and nobody knows who you. even better if we have a pile of them we can say that. we can see that. so do not typically my friend from notre dame but on a panel a few weeks ago he said at notre dame we don't have this problem every graduate 90% of our football of us go players and we do it right. and i said do you know what? i would love to believe that. i hope it is true. show me the transcripts. that's the only way we are going to see if it's true or not because we'll see if students have been put in pass classes custard together the same age maybe taking a bunch of independent studies, a bunch of online classes. that's silly we can prove these young people are getting a real education that we promised them. >> if we are going to admit them and their that far behind we have to mediate their

deficiency. >> i'm all for that. >> we are, too. >> you mentioned before that both coaches took the fall or both coaches knew what was going on in the scandal. why hasn't the basketball coach taken the fall speaks i think he's playing a game right at the moment so we can't call them up right now and asking. i think eventually we are going to see when the ncaa comes back in. there's more stuff coming and there's more happening behind the scenes, and i do believe that changes are coming. i certainly think that the ncaa has some roles that might be affected and one of them is you should of known if you didn't know. and because you are in charge and make a boatload of money off the backs of these young people.

i think time will tell the story on that. but again we're going to protect the brand and protect our money at all costs. that's all you. >> head coaches have given them plausible deniability by the building and bureaucratic layer who makes tactical decisions have gets kids registered and declare the majors. said coach cannot say it wasn't me. it was that layer of bureaucrats who answer to me and talk to me everyday but it's their fault, not mine. it's plausible deniability is built right in. >> i have a comment and a question. one is that julius peppers didn't only play football, he was a gifted academically he played basketball as well. >> quite a scandal. >> and other specific you may or nine may not be able to respond to but i can remember were shod announcing the end of us will program was like being in

prison. i'm curious whether his transcripts have ever been public information because he's one of the few players that's been made allegations and been vocal about his experience and there have been denial and coaches quote him as not lying but he was just wrong. i guess there's a fine distinction there, but is there anything public about were shod mccanns actual transcripts? >> his transcripts were shown on espn outside the line. so they have been made public. so we have all now seen his transcripts, and he is telling the truth that he did take for paper classes and was on the dean's list in 2005, the strength of his transcript of the second reflects he was failing most of his regular or classes. so he tells some great stories and i think he's playing overseas right now but it did what we'll be hearing more from

him and his stories but i think it would be fascinating to the has a bad repetition to be quite a character but just like all of us which sit down at the table and get to know was we are not exactly as we may see. he is sort of one of those people. >> you allude to one of the great undiscussed scandals within the scandal by the way. the fact that julius peppers at the end of his first year with his 2.0 gpa and an awful performance academically in his first year, the fact that after that first year, the basketball coach decided it was good to get them on the basketball team too, and the athletic director allowed as did everybody else. this is a scam. they should never have happened. how was this possible? >> i think that man had his hand up for a very long time. >> did you have a chance to interview the players or maybe coaches? and if so, what did they say?

>> well, i worked with students in the athletic department for seven years so a lot of the stories, especially chapter seven and eight were for mike spent working with the young men. and women to work with while i was there. in addition we did do some interviewing. we have some athletes would talk to and some faculty and some staff that we talk to. we didn't talk to coaches to give a talk to a coaches? no. we didn't have any coaches but we certainly had have heard from coaches, espn, outside the lines and locally we've heard from some coaches say that they didn't know necessarily about what was happening been missing in the academic support units but we reported to them on a weekly basis from the academics unit for student athletes. they had all the records. they helped with clearing athletes for tournaments like right now in march madness, before you go to the tournament

you have to certify your students all over again. when you in an academic support unit in athletics, you are constantly looking at those transcripts and linda coaches know who is eligible who's not eligible, who sitting on defense, kind of where are we going forward with all of that. >> first of all i would like to thank you as well. i was wondering if you talked about mcswain and wayne waldin in the book? >> we do. we do. debate to speak ill of the dead but speed is but we do. and i'm sure when i'm dead lots of people will be speaking at me. some of them wish i was dead right now. >> we suggest burgess mcswain along with debbie krauter and julius concocted the system. it was at her prompting.

because in the late '80s there were a number of really weak students on the basketball team. she loved those guys. she wanted to help them anyway to seem trite tumor. slush fund eases classes she could for them. it turned out that some of them were easy indeed. and after going through a year or two expanding essentially with these courses with achilles and debbie we believe that they basically systematize golfing by the early '90s. >> so there were easy courses in the charcoal to? >> yes. >> paper classes -- >> not paper classes. >> there were independent studies. spent we identify them. spin they had to take what, nine hours at least? >> twelve. into six hours in the summer session usually. >> there are always easy classes but most people's transcripts are not littered with easy

classes, you know. spin there were meetings and test and you have to go okay and maybe it's not fraudulent but speed it's just not isolated to the sports. >> that's true to. >> it's always about money. it essentially comes down to money. what proposals or what findings did you have relative to policing boosters? which is the primary source. >> that's an interesting question speed we don't really, we don't really get into that. although we've had some conversations just in the last few weeks about how we really have, it's still evolving force as we studied all this and

following everything that's happening nationally and talking to arne duncan the secretary of education. we're in for position with all these people lots of conversations going on out there. is it really possible to connect academics to athletics? so in other words, you have to be academically eligible, which maybe doesn't answer your booster question per se but if we make this connection go away and we say you can be a college student, you can also play division i profit sports but we're going to separate those and we are going to pay you give you benefits, maybe make you an applelike the northwestern football team is suggesting. we are waiting for the nlrb to roll. maybe some of these booster issues would go away. and the scholarship issue goes away and all these perks will go away. it's hard to really come it is a complex business problem that has to be solved.

>> you're getting to the environmental issue. you need money to run it. >> i think it's fruitless to run. [inaudible] big time college sports where would you locate yourself on the spectrum from optimistic the pessimistic insofar as significant movement toward a solution? >> i'm optimistic because i'm in it to win it as the ncaa says. i think we are riding a wave right now that is pretty positive. as michael says the pot the o'bannon distance also involved in this next case he said the doors open a little bit to fix this.

went to take it although it off the hinges. it's got to come all the way down and we're still a ways away from the. but big money, crud and there's television contracts already out for years so that's going to present a bit of a problem. but the conversation is alive and people are getting involved for the first time ever. are you as optimistic as i am? >> no, i'm not. we both have high hopes for this us action lawsuits which could really bring about significant change. especially the rashad mccants ramsey lawsuit that takes aim at the education front of athletes. with high hopes and we will see. we will see how it goes. if you read our book it's kind of a downer of a book on the sleep spin that's his fault. >> but in conclusion we do try to sound some funny optimism. >> that was my part to. >> i don't know how many questions we have time for. who's next?

spent i think this gentleman has been waving at me. i don't know if the waving at me seems to work. >> do you think they should welcome you back for doing the right thing? >> so i don't really think that our differences at this point are reconcilable yet but i believe that someday they will be, and i had hoped also and i'm optimistic that someday i will be invited back. look, we are on college, people are inviting us to come. we'll be in carolina in april in the classroom. there's interest year from us anything once this story gets more legs and once the national conversation continues and the court cases move forward, i think that the university will perhaps recognize me as somebody who belongs. i am a tarheel. i am a tarheel and i will always be one. we raise our kids on the campus. my husband this year. we live three blocks from the

carolina in. i mean gennaker our kids come home and they go on franklin street and they love it here and we are not going anywhere. so i will just wait it out the i've got a few good years left. spin i'vespent i have seen two people with hands up for quite a while. yes. >> by question has to do with was there a moment at which, and if you could explain that moment, or did it occur over a longer time when you realized i've got to act? and what that was like spent that's kind of an easy question actually. wouldn't you say? it was immediately in the wake of the martin report. we were fuming -- the martin report, governor jim martin released a report in december december 2012 in which he famously declared this is not an athletic scandal. this is an academic scandal. limited to one department.

we were on the phone to each other within seconds as i recall. or mary was at the meeting. if you watch the documentary school you will see her crushed by this announcement of the governors, and -- >> i had a really nice jacket on. but i was really upset. spent i know i was crushed. i watched it online and i was knocked breathless by this announcement. by the end of the day we decided we are writing the book because it was clear to us at the point that the university had no intention of disclosing what had really happened in chapel hill. they were going to keep as tight a lid on as the good and we're we're determined that the truth was going to be told. it have had to be told because this story was just too important. >> and before that i actually was talking, i left the athletic department 2010, six months ahead of marvin's famous tweed

where everything open and eventually started out as benefits with his party in miami that he tweed about. like some kitchen galactica to party and get free drinks. how insane is that? that started the whole problem and then the academic problems were uncovered during that investigation and i remained silent except to talk to general counsel in 2010, but they pretty much, talk to them for two and half hours but they pretty much ignored me. and what i said. and then in 2011 i started speaking with dan kane off the record and then 2012 when of still talking to him, i went to president friday's you know and i remember i've met with him in 2010 and i was feeling really bad as i was listening to hodding carter immortalized president friday and about how important academic integrity was too big and they went home and i said to my husband, i've got to do something. he said start a blog. that seems to be a popular thing right now. i started a blog, it's all his

fault, it went viral and then dan kane said that they said on the record that. off to the races we went. and then i met jay around that same time and is he personally and as athletic reform group, a group of faculty have really had my back to adult seems like a that all this hate which i have, fans are fanatics, right? i've had many more supporters encouraging me on. because many of us know that this is the truth and we've seen this ourselves, and we would like to do something as well. people tell me they would like to do something as well but i happened to be in the right place at the right time have great support from a husband and my family and was able to keep it a. i wouldn't have been able to do this book, "cheated," without this guy because i make reading specials and learning specials and i can tell stores but he's the right. spent you tell a good story.

>> it's been a great, great journey and i've learned a lot. >> time has gone by you've got students who were failing and now you've got, are those the same students now passing on what courses are they taking a? have students dropped out? >> we can't see the transcript anymore. they cut us both off. imagine that. but we know admission standards -- >> admission standards have been raised a couple of years ago and so in the last two years unc admitted here, still admitting some but fewer of the truly -- i think something like i'm going to get the numbers wrong but i think 25 were admitted in 2008, whereas 2012 it was a benign. i seem to recall those. they do seem to have tightened up the standards.

the danger of course, this may be just a temporary measure while everyone is looking they've adopted no hard and fast rule about admissions going forward. so we've got to be vigilant and watching admissions. but which courses are they taking? we really don't know. we can't tell. we are not close enough to the ground in a longer to know what they're doing. but there have been a couple of academic casualties, right? the football team -- >> for the first time in history we lost four players i think three or four players academically ineligible oh, my goodness. >> i think it's getting tougher for them. >> last question. >> observation and then the last question. my question is, and again i appreciate i want to commend you both for everything you've done. my question is more about the culture at the university that allows this and why have we seen more professors, tenured

professors that step up and actually take a stand on this? because they're the ones i think we see the university, i've got a nephew pre-med over there and we've had this discussion. he's getting a great education at the value of his degree obviously has been tarnished. >> that's right. >> i can only agree with you. faculty is supposed to be the guarantor's and integrity of the institution. they're supposed to be the watchdog for these sorts of offenses. and the fact that we haven't been marching on is a mr. toomey. i don't understand it. there are, i want to say there are other plenty of faculty who are as angry as i am. there are a lot of them. but it's true that the faculty as a collective just hasn't mustered much energy. and i'm very disappointed by the

i don't have a good answer for. i think of lots of reasons why faculty tend to be reticent. >> thursday social logical theory to get a chance look at that, it's happening at universities and in industry all across the country. we just go along. it's just part of our culture right now. it's really sad. [inaudible] >> that's one of the factors absolutely. >> nobody wants the. everybody just wants to be left alone. >> there was a startling statistic that came across at the time of a faculty rally action a couple of weeks ago in front of south building which is 59% of faculty at unc are not on the tenure track anymore. the majority of the faculty do not have the protection of tenure. that's markedly different from just 10 years ago when something

like 80% or more of faculty at tenure the protections of tenure. so the status of faculty is also under assault at the moment all across the education. one of the consequences of that is the faculty will be less willing to challenge administrators. so we all need to be concerned about that. >> and thank you to quail ridge and thank you to all these people for having us. they did a great job. thank you very much. thank you very much. [applause] spent there he wrote the book. we appreciate. our authors will be signing in the back of the store and we want to thank each and everyone of you for coming tonight. and that you come back for our next event. thank you all. >> thank you all for coming. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> booktv is on twitter and

facebook and we wanted from me. tweet us twitter.com/booktv or post a comment on our facebook page facebook.com/booktv. >> burt neuborne, the former legal director for the aclu argues that the first amendment was primarily created to protect the democratic process and not individual rights as is commonly believed. next on booktv he explains out with this understanding we should be issues like the future of campaign finance reform and the protection of voting rights. >> i think we should all go home. [laughter] there is no topping that. let me start by just norman's

story about a person needs an introduction to one of the funny storylines when i was at the aclu for many years where i loved being a lawyer was that our printer could never get my name straight. so i would get a series of memo pads from the desk of bart was the major, we actually get out a bart award to the person who did the most work and got the least credit in the organization. [laughter] when i left i was legal director during the reagan years. what i left as aclu legal director to come back to nyu the louisiana affiliate which was a very strong and courageous affiliate decided to give a little party for me. i went down to baton rouge for a lovely dinner and a speak. so i'm sitting there waiting to be introduced and the director of the affiliate want to say

something nice, set i just want to know when i'm introducing it to the man who used to be burt neuborne. [laughter] you go pretty quick. so it isn't every day that you get to thank three of the most important people in your professional life. on a single platform before an audience of family and dear friends. as john intimated, the single most productive vote i ever cast was back in 1971 when i was chair of the personnel committee that hired john as young member of the nyu law faculty. we all know john went on to serve as a transformative been at nyu before assuming the presidency of the university. we at the law school owe john a special debt for his important role in helping the law school become the preeminent center of legal educ