pictures the rest of the story. the rest of the story starts one year earlier. we are in the ukraine and we want to see what the nazi resistance fighters hid during world war ii. you have to go down the shaft of the 100 feet and get to go into the ground another 200 feet in the place about this wide about this tall with just these lightbulbs come november election and would learn something about me. i don't like that. [laughter] and i had a panic attack. what did she say? suck it up you big baby. exactly what she told me. she looked at me and said you've got to suck it up them become and. and i did like it. if your government only enclosed you know what i'm talking about. i freaked out. now i don't underground two hours in that coffin. she's up in the sunshine for 45 minutes, okay. so there. and yes, i did pay her back that at the top of the eiffel tower for insensitivity to me figure before. yes, i did.

so we learned this come whenever we do research if we have to go up high, i go. if we have to go underground, she goes and we did it all right. and by the way cotton has the exact same obese. in next years book export cotton spoke will be in great detail because i understand it very well. there's will be about underground it is not like to be up high. i transferred of those to this. this is been wonderful. avoided at all the money we raise tonight is going to the st. augustine historic society to up with her efforts. elizabeth and i do this all around the country. we don't have 75 events and pushing right at $1 million raised for the historic project. the next four weeks will be doing five more events all across the country as part of her book tour for the patriot threat. we very much enjoy doing this. we enjoy working with historical preservation doing our part to get back.

after that which is done every time to we don't charge expenses but i pay my own way to go to all defensive everything goes to the event. so thank you and give yourself a break and for all the money you raised tonight. thank you. [applause] >> for more information on booktv's recent visit to st. augustine, florida and in many other cities visited by our local content vehicles go to c-span.org/localcontent. >> "after words' is next on booktv. in "end the irs before it ends us," grover norquist, president of americans for tax reform argues that americans have reached a tipping point in their tolerance for the irs and our tax system. is interviewed by stan veuger resident scholar at the american enterprise institute. >> grover, how's it going? we're going to discuss today your new book "end the irs before it ends us."

it's a fascinating read. it's a very broad, sweeping book, ranges from a history of the united states as driven by revolts to personal advisor for the reader on how to minimize your tax burden. so there's going to a wide range of topics for us to discuss. i want to start out with the title, "end the irs before it ends us." there's two things i want to know. why you want to into the irs? and even in your materialist dream world with a single rate flat tax only on consumer income, so as to be in charge of collecting tax revenue to pay for the national defense and -- >> guest: as you know this is a sweep of history. it talks about we went from one to 2% of our income been

collected in taxes prior to the american revolution. before the original tea party. in london in the bank 20%. it's expensive to run an empire. we were growing, moving along at carbon sinks happen. over time a series of things happen and government got bigger and bigger and taxes are at higher and higher and more complex and more repetitive. the economy slowed and our relative strength compared to the rest of the world slowed and reversed. the question is we were doing very well. we moved away from a policy that worked to one that doesn't work as well. how do we get back there? solutions part of it is the things you do today that fix things. tomorrow. i do think we can look forward to a time when perhaps you'd have an income tax. we didn't have an income tax until 1913. also in the book what i talk about is doing things at the state level that becomes models

for federal activity. term limits started at the state level and now hit congressman and senators as committee chairs, which is very powerful and important. wouldn't have happened without the states doing it. transparency at the national level followed transparency state by state. welfare reform moved from the states and washington. school choice, number of issues. we have nine states with no income tax. >> host: kansas north carolina -- >> guest: another 10 or so that are actively moving to phase out attacks. attacks. i think you'll see arizona joined the crew. wisconsin to talk about that. north carolina is in that direction. kansas has pulled the trigger. mississippi, the house just voted to follow a kansas model as revenue comes income additional revenue beyond two or 3% growth loogootee phase don't income tax to ratchet it down. what happens in states without

such a ratchet them additional money comes in because there's growth, a lot of capital gains taxes and the labor unions grab it and spent all of it and never thinks through what happens to issues of magical and disappears to the special interests. >> host: said would want a similar model at the federal level? >> guest: i think you go state-by-state as with half of the states with right-to-work laws. so at the national level you could think about altering federal work laws right-to-work laws. we have nine states with no income tax. i think we will get to have over the next 10 to 15 years. at the point you say, we always thoughtfelt we had to have an income tax in arizona or oklahoma. do we need one at the federal level? they had to think it would actually look to reform government is making a. we just keep moving in that direction. >> host: co-head because i think people will be skeptical. you still need a military, someone needs to get the money.

>> guest: not tomorrow. not next year. were not talking about changing the name. kgb and -- aspects of this is a long-term scenario. >> guest: we didn't get to this mess overnight but it took decades and it will take decades to fix it. >> host: i think more of a short-term concern is what you start a book out with becky talk about how there is target consumer group in the run up to the 2012 elections. i was wondering is that part of what drove your title choice of? >> guest: it does. you right. your eight pages into the book and we discussed whether think is very possibly a decision by irs bureaucrats, politically appointed bureaucrats, to go after the growing tea party movement and deny them 501(c)(4) status, legal status so they couldn't bank account

and legally raise money and that one or two staffers and rent a little office and grow into state institutions. tea party start in 2009. just a couple months into the obama administration. and i would've told you at the time that it couldn't happen, that i've been working in a tax benefit for a long time and i knew from experience the american people will rise up against a tax increase, proposition 13 against property taxes in california. the increases in taxes proposition massachusetts, proposition 13 property tax revolt. they didn't revolt during the previous 10 to 15 years when spending cut out of hand and then taxes rose to meet it. they waited until taxes increased. i thought we would have to wait until obama which spent a lot of money and i would go take a look at that. i do ago is not a problem. and ss taxes are raised they go

take him it's a problem. the american people sensed that all that spending was going to lead to massive tax increases and didn't wait for the tax hikes. tax hikes follow but the tea party came first. it was the first anti-spending movement in american history. that's a tax revolt. the first anti-spending movement that i can find, and when they did that they had maybe 600 to $1000 we could document around the country. there's a wonderful study that aei put out with some harvard and universities of sweden -- >> host: i obviously think it's wonderful. >> guest: and this was is very powerful because it's a study that said no here's where you had a tea party route and usually why the tea party rally what was the difference in voter turnout and money raised for political campaigns and numbers of volunteers and future attendance and demonstrations. they were estimating between free and 6 million additional

votes came out for republicans in 2010 and beyond what you otherwise would have expected because of the rallies themselves. if you think about, the left has always done rallies. i thought that's because they don't have jobs. why do they go to rallies? you meet people at rallies. you get a sense of belonging can he rely your not alone. this is bigger than me. you have friends and your local friends come you get together. >> host: i think one remarkable finding is indeed a local these effects are. a part of the narrative of the data but the tea party movement was that it was astroturf, organized from d.c. by evil billionaires. and i think a massive local variation driven by rally turnout, driven by local weather on a daily schedule really i think scioscia organic a lot of it was. >> guest: and at first the obama administration pooh-poohed.

remember the president said he didn't watch any other branscum did know anything about it. i get calls from one of indie media sank so you and exxon are doing this right? they thought i organized it with some fortune 500 company. s.o.b. for the koch brothers. actually know. we are trying to find all these guys because would love to work with them but we've never seen them. for. i went to some of the early rallies and people would say how many of them into political bow before? 10 to 15% of the people would raise their hand. people who'd never done this before. 2010, the democrats got wiped out, lost the house because the tea party surge in voter turnout and it was at that point that senators and the president were screaming out loud something has to be done. nobody rid of his turbulent priest. and lois lerner gave a speech on my birthday october 19, 2010

just before they lost the election and she said they are all telling me come i have to do something. so people are looking for the e-mail, you don't need the e-mail. she said out loud they are all telling me. you could see them letters that were sent them senators did you conceived in the president's comments that there was something ever wrote there was something terrible and needed to be stopped at her, was they wanted to do before the election. north carolina, for the election. what if they just were talking about we really need to make some decisions before the election. 45 days in may. this is crazy general should not talk like that neither should somebody runs portions of the irs. they harass people who are trying to set up 501(c)(4)s, little associations so to get a bank account and elect the president and have a group that would grow. we didn't have the growth of the tea party groups the way we did after the 1978-79-80 taxpayer revolt. there are groups to this day for

the senate have bank accounts, coupled offices and a major player in california massachusetts and other states. obama and lois lerner succeeded in kneecap in the tea party movement so that it could not replicate in 12 what it did in 10. and had they had the election and 12 might well have come to different if they did a similar upsurge in republican votes, obama would have lost. >> host: romney was outperformed by that much. >> guest: obama was down 3 million but there was a margin of 4 million, and before we saw 46 million the surge something like that, if it had continued, it should have built on itself over to your. i'm not just replicated itself there's a serious argument that that was a major factor, may maybe the factor but a major factor in obama's reelection. you can't have part of the government playing politics against the american people and

that's okay with the irs. let's say they didn't quite do enough to make it happen, they were drawing. >> host: for sure. and it is unforgivable. >> guest: this. >> host: one reason why the professional that can do that is because many of the people who work in these agencies i think self identify as liberals, why do you think that is and why do you think conservatives even when control of the federal government, have such a hard time innovating these agencies? >> guest: during the american revolution there were the patriots, sons of liberty and they're up against loyalists are what are called friends of government. south american traditions are always been friends for the government. the front of government with people who wanted to stay with britain and the government, the british government brought an army and to try and let them win that fight. what happens when you have sons

of liberty today, republicans libertarians, conservatives and friends of government, status of any kind, liberals democrats when the government comes in and is not the servant of the people but a participant in the political struggle and hits at tea party activists or republicans and subsidizes organized labor and environmental groups and gives them hundreds of millions of dollars back and shoving elections, is that you tilt the playing field. one, conservatives and republicans tend not to work for the coveted they tend to work for themselves or the private sector. that government is a very static career. you know which will be making 10 years from now. there's no such thing as i such thing as ugly but it does so i'll make twice as much as the guy sitting next to me in my cubicle, which can happen in the rest of the world. what you do notice is that when nixon said to the irs would you

go to make him give me some tax returns of people i don't like they do that to the press. when kennedy and johnson did it come the answer was here they are, sir. what bothers me about the irs corruption is not just lois lerner. she's a political hack appointed by obama. there were no whistleblowers. no whistleblowers. we now know that in the irs people are still using their own gmail account. your data could then somebody's junior i countered this is hillary clinton at the irs hundreds maybe thousands of people sloppy with your data and mine and the american peoples. we know that they shared some conservative donor lists with opposition groups in order to attack them and bother them. and threatened them. that's a real threat, and the fact i'd be much happier if lois lerner had said we are going to to to do this and some of his uncle in "the new york times," this is not happening.

but you are quite right that the irs culture to such and much of the government's culture is that they are friends of government. they are nothing to the people. they see themselves as loyal to the state rather than the nation and assure the interest of the state which is bigger government. >> host: i sometimes get the sense that you would like to change about situation. >> guest: i wrote about. >> host: part of your book is about how to get there. that it's about the sort of coalition, they'll leave us alone coalition i believe you call in an earlier book or that title. how do you see that organizing process? how do you think it will end up bearing fruit? how do you see its future? >> guest: what i tried to do in the book is not just diagnose the problem. there's lots of people who say we have a problem. thank you. i don't do windows, i'm leaving now. or you can i debug and say here's the problem, and everybody would you buy one solution we would win. there are other solutions of the

people working on. what if the project doesn't work? doesn't happen? so there are come in the second half of the book is dozens and dozens of things you can do at the state level, things that would take four years to take effect. -- 40 years to take effect. paul ryan entitlement reform, the ryan budget plan. so we try and lay those out, and then pashtun. >> host: getting one big step one big part of the book is that different types of tax reform. i get to the park and i expected, now we're going to see grovers tax reform. >> guest: look i think we have to be moving towards taxing income one time consumed income at one time at one rate. that could be a fair tax a

retail sales tax to get to be a flat rate income tax to a to be a flat rate income tax of zero and raise taxes other places which is where we were for more than half of our country's existence. so the idea that we can't go there strikes as ridiculous. maybe a lot of work, maybe don't go there. maybe you live with an income tax it wasn't run by lois lerner and was 5% instead of 50%. and a lot of things could be moved to the state level, not at the national level. so there's lots of things we need to do to move in the right direction. you can sell assets. we don't trillions of dollars worth of stuff under the ground, under the water. >> host: it's a weird that doesn't enjoy more bipartisan support for even "the economist" magazine which is serving not the voice of the extreme right hand a cover page and a lead editorial is less about this how

a lot of western countries on tons of assets they can sell off and given a base with all lower taxes dramatically. why do you think no one wants think no one wants passionate whitey think is not broader support for that? >> guest: step one what are the projects i run at americans for tax reform is a no tax increase pledge. and in the book i talk about is the problem with it into animal attacks player -- taxpayer protection pledge had which says no net tax increase. the pledge is a simple one sentence 58 award commitment by an elected official that says i put in writing i will oppose and vote against any net tax increase to know raising rates. you can be reformed you want as long as it's not a net tax increase. so it was written to office enact reagan's 1986 law because people worried we didn't come to bring the rates of death from what is the rates back up again? wanted people to the rates high? we've got one of the congressman and 20 senators to commit in writing as long as they were in

the house or senate they would vote and oppose any effort to raise rates or to broaden the base with a keeping rates down. we now have a majority of the house and almost a majority in the senate who have signed the pledge never to raise taxes. a thousand state legislators come a lot of governors. of the republicans running for president today all but jeb bush signed either as governors or senators and kept it. and, or they took a big because they ran for president were undecided and. today the track record to signing the pledge and keeping it. bush has not raise taxes when he was governor but i think he's got his father's decision to take the pledge which is why he won the primary, take the pledge which is why he won the gym and any broken and lost a reelection. he threw away a perfectly good

presidency. his brother in exactly the opposite. take the pledge, keep it. the problem was that making a commitment, he would've never been the nominee if he had that made the committee. he beat you bob dole because bob dole would not take in new hampshire and that's what he lost. he was 14 points down to dukakis when he said read my lips announced he was running against reagan and would raise taxes. it's when he broke it that he made it impossible for himself to be trusted on anything and to get reelected. i think at the end of the day chip which will make a commitment. admin id the pledge but it will be inviting to the american people. that's the important part of the do you worry though, in the book you discuss senator hatch's initiative to review the ethanol tax credit. >> guest: coburn. there was an effort, the pledge.

the pledge became a great wall of china beyond which politicians couldn't do. as long as the republicans have had the house, senate or governorship which was some or presidency from 94 till 2009 there was no tax increase in american history, the longest period in american history with no tax increase. it was only when they're all democrat in 1993 and no republican voted and then in 2009 when they passed a tax increase only with democratic votes. that period as long as good without tax increases. esses republicans got control of the house, no tax increases again. so the reason why you say no tax increases is to force a discussion about spending reform and government reform and prioritizing. if tax increases are an option, government never reformed itself. all the things we've been doing some smart come some stupid to

keep toledo's attitude ideas that will add on top and raise taxes. it'sis like a ship to keep speculating barnacles and is never an effort to decide whether some of the stuff doesn't work anymore. the pledge is what force is a question and a spending cap that we live under for the next 10 years. because of that people who care deeply about national defense are talking about cowbirds legislation to reduce the number of civilian employees at the pentagon by about 100,000. save $85 billion in five years, 170 billion in 10 years. a lot of what you need to get to the sequestered numbers without reducing the number of people in uniform for the number of planes and tanks. you would never have these discussions and didn't during the bush years. years. it was written in military spending. we've got a war going on. instead of reforming government pages added onto it. when we did world war ii they

actually set up an anti-appropriations committee, a committee whose job it was all they did was recommended i'm spending. that's what is going conservation corps that we had during the '30s, that's what it's not there anymore. visit we don't need this anymore and to put someone into world war ii. that wpa, the work projects all of these things, i remember wondering how come they are still not to? so many dumb ideas or. why did this become national service? why didn't grow like other things? because there was a committee whose job it was to in unnecessary spending. want the recommendations i make in the book is come let's bring that committee back. senator roberts has put together legislation to that effect and i'm hopeful we can get that discussed now and enacted with a republican president. >> host: do you worry sometimes, because one way i think this would've around the pledge is to call spending that

credits. do you see that for example under lee and rubio have a tax reform plan where on the business side there's a lot come to capital taxation said there's a lot of stuff you probably like a lot but on individual side they raise rates and they want i guess they want to funnel they want to send funds to families with lots of children. they call it a tax credit. it might as well be spending. >> guest: two things. if it's refundable it is definitely spending. the are better and less good tax cuts in the world. tax deductions tax credits are generally less helpful to economic growth and rate reduction. what they've done with that it's a much improved piece of legislation that some of the guys were thinking about started with. a dramatic reduce the cost of taxation on capital gains and

dividends and so when. in total -- >> host: consumption tax. >> guest: it is in toto similarly of utah and senator rubio of florida, the bill would supercharge the economy. they spent a lot of tax credits on per child and so on to build political support. the pro-growth part of that is actually very impressive. senator rand has a bill. i syngenta outlines of it. it's coming out in the next couple of weeks dramatic reduction in tax rates. that also would supercharge the economy. i think you'll see a lot of strong republicans running to a lot of governors people have track records of actually organize things, unlike president obama and to me of our presidential -- >> host: a bunch of first term senator's. >> guest: we do anything to have to make the case that they are different than obama and how they can compete with people who

have been governors. the depth of the republican bench is a very healthy sign for the republicans. democrats have hillary clinton and, then what? the one character they were going to run the former governor of maryland, was so unpopular with this tax increase policies that his lieutenant governor who should she win and a deeply blue state lost. and hogan, the republican one. >> host: by a big margin. >> guest: so it's hillary or nothing else but if she wins that's okay but it really does suggest that they are not building a farm team. hud's republicans did have a farm team didn't have the local town, state legislators and governors. now it's the democrats and that's troubling long-term for the modern democratic party. >> host: is a logical consequence of the last few elections we've seen with have lost so many governorships so

much control of state houses. >> guest: one of the reasons why republicans can experiment at the state level and democrats can't is one only good ideas can flourish at the state level. really stupid ideas can only be enacted at the national level. because if you have come if you want to the minimum wage of $50,000 a year and you do it nationally it would be very bad for the economy. people as to what caused that? maybe with the weather or the federal reserve bank. but if you do in vermont everybody knows what happened. the reason why when they pass in government run health care in massachusetts under dukakis a pastor senator dukakis lost and repeal the because they knew it would very badly damaged the massachusetts economy. so they did what to do. they can only do obamacare nationally. you could never do it state by state in the manner in which he did it. they would be too devastating. >> host: even vermont didn't

pass single-payer. >> guest: vermont said no to doing it at the state level. this is the advantage, tax advantage that free market limited government republicans, then returned reagan republicans have which is they can try things out at the state level. school choice, and when one state does it the argument that the world ends if you give parents parental choice in education, or you don't have an income tax or you right to work or you don't have government unions in the public sector. it works better and you can check that. then you run for president on that background. we now have more than 30 republican governors, 24 states with a republican governor republican house and a republican senate with half the countries population in those 24 red states the democrats have seven states that they went completely. california is one of them. >> host: that's a big one. >> guest: it is come and the there are six of us, hawaii and delaware and connecticut,

oregon. there's a real challenge for the democrats in that they don't have control of state bodies and republicans do post a the one potential you're not allowed to shower anymore. >> guest: and their policies don't work and people are leaving blue states and moving to red states. >> host: i think that's what governors very central argument in running right? >> guest: i've been governor for 10 years and have a successful state. people most move to my state. he has a very strong narrative. >> host: i want to go back a little to your policy prescription. i want to talk about selling stuff. and there is a lot of money there. how do you think, how would you make a case to the american people that lots of federal lands should be sold off? but the environment a little movement has been opposed to it. how do you see the future of

that? >> guest: step one hold the pledge come hold the pledge come hold the pledge. as long as tax increases are off the table, then the spending that needs to occur in a free and open society national defense, courts they go or right now as long as the token is running the federal government is running the road the highway system. i'd rather the book turned out to the states and have them do it but you are seeing this happen state-by-state. the people who want to build more roads were spend more money on roads go we like more money. you are not raising taxes. what do you suggest? go find me me a spending reductions reduction somewhere else that we can couple that spending reduction with your more spending on roads and you can have your roads but the government will get bigger and not raise taxes. court wednesday look at a gas tax increase but the income tax has to come down. south carolina by a larger

amount. you turn a spending interest roads, national defense come into your allied in reforming government. that's particularly to on selling asset. the pentagon owns a lot of the airwaves, spectrum, right? deposition is well they would have to reorganize it to forget that so there's all this stuff but you could get it down to a fraction and then sell it off. if we sold it off they go to the general revenue and we would see none of it back, a piece of it back? i am in favor of anything talking to congressmen and senators look the pentagon owns, uses the spectrum. the art tends the navy hundreds of billions of dollars available, say to the pentagon you restructure, you sell it and it goes into the pentagon budget beyond what sequester allows. okay? but we're not going pass the

cost with taxes or spending that you've got the money and you don't have to cut it. then all of the sudden the pentagon instead of hoarding spectrum, because someday we might need it which they've been saying for 60 years, goes i don't need this. i have a shiny new plane. let's sell that off. the brac legislation, base restructuring and closing effort which dick armey came up with in the '80s in which the pentagon says here are a series of bases we don't need, a commission comes in with bipartisan immigration and nobody feels they're getting screwed. and they pick 30 of these bases and say okay, these can be closed. they are the ones the pentagon doesn't want anymore so we're not taking some important things away from the pentagon in terms of bases and then let the house and the senate votes to overturn

that decision come of bases can be restructured, closed move people from smaller basis to larger basis. we've stayed tens of billions of dollars. there's another brac to be done. there is half a billion dollars we're spending on these properties are not using up at the pentagon. that's a lot of money. that's more than i pay in taxes. it's those kind of reforms that only will happen if the sequester holds and we say no to tax increases. i spoke with one of the leading congressmen who deals with military spending and i said look, i want to help you on this spending restraint that you've got so tell me what will congress what you do to save money and of hope fight to get that done. and every proposal that i put out which is on the tenuous been offered somewhere to save money can he wasn't interested because it did not all of his problems. the only way to solve all

responds is to raise taxes. the end of his conversation that chairman said what can i get to be hopeful? tell everybody does not intended to be saved in the pentagon to tell everybody that got a penny to be saved in the pentagon. that's nonsense. that person is no longer in office and no longer the problem that he was but i was thinking. there's not a penny to be saved in the pentagon, even though i talk to him about ideas that would save tens and hundreds of billions of dollars over time. he wasn't interested in putting any effort into that. with the sequester then you guys in charge of the pentagon are very interested. i gave a presentation of this on the hill and some hawks can buy.com tell me about the savings idea. tell me about the house guy. account that goes are interesting to some senators. with a spending restraint cap sequester, all of a sudden people care about national defense become the outlet of the taxpayers, not their enemy.

so i think how do we get stuff sold off? there isn't any more money. there's a pile of about a trillion dollars, over time trillions of dollars in oil and natural gas and minerals under the ocean, under american property, government property in federally owned land. imagine if we had expansion in fracking on federal land as we had on atlanta as you know 100% plus of all the growth in our oil and natural gas production order from fracking took place on state and local land because and obama and the democratic -- it's going down on federal property. so obama has had a negative role, we've had an explosion of energy production. because you couldn't stop it. because you couldn't stop. but if you go to his spending coalitions and say we have to catch her budget or we could

responsibly drill for oil and natural gas on federal land and you seen these things. you poked a hole in the ground. it doesn't burn down the earth. doesn't burn down the forest. that's how we force reform. don't raise taxes and then spend interest and fight each other to push for the people away from the table. >> host: that sounds like a laudable scenario. >> guest: it's been working at the state level post but it would be helpful for these purposes if the president were on board with it as well estimate yes. >> host: what did you make of the issue that said hillary is presumed nominee on the democratic side, what do you think of the republican field? >> guest: you look around. chris christie, new jersey he got up reform in their pension system essays $130 billion over

30 years in reducing the unfunded liability. he is -- he has a democratic house and senate he works with. he vetoed every tax increase, about every tax increase collapse to lapse. and has been a serious a governor and a difficult state. scott walker you would have thought that wisconsin was as blue as new jersey but in point of fact and have a republican house, senate and governor and a change in the laws in that state for public sector unions. the changes he made include you have had an election every year to continue for organizing unit or it disappears because all of the people paying union dues and wisconsin have never voted to join a union. the union was created 50 years ago. they were told me you here condition of employment. teachers, government workers in the state are paid they make 50,000 a year paid $1000 a year,

2%. that's a voluntary and they can't withhold it from their paycheck. it's a drop summer between half and two-thirds. there's been a drop of about 100,000 employees not paying union dues. not part of the kenyan, -- union. and since its $1000 per person it's $100 million every out of the pocket of organized labor. that's a small c. conservative. is probably higher because unions are not rushing to tell you how they're collapsing. as a result the efforts and voter fraud, i thought republicans are pleased against voter fraud they were waiting at 6:15 on election day to get calls. they are showing up with people on the bus. get a lawyer done. never happen. they didn't have the money for anymore. the way the unions spend money to the people to polls, and the nonvoters from pole to pole

they couldn't afford to do it because they don't have the money because they can't take it without peoples permission anymore. he has dramatic the changed or for what a successful governor looks like. it is the president and every government will have to go through his checklist of things he did and do this in order to be considered a republican in good standing. that would change the country. texas, governor rick perry strong governor, 14 years as governor, texas big state, for a successful. very good narrative. bobby jindal. is still a campaign against hillary, obama took him he's the expert on health care. he did a dramatic expansion of school choice parental choice for education, cut taxes, passed an ethics law in louisiana to make it illegal to get a minnesota some of the clutter the legislature hates him for it but he got past. he's been a phenomenal governor

in a very difficult state. it's technically a republican state but a lot of democrats that sort of changed jerseys but not completed mindset when they became republican. you go around ted cruz the just announced he is a pledge take her, serious on spending restraint. rubio, spanish-speaking we do very well with the hispanic vote, wins in florida. very serious both well spoken and very serious policy guy. jeb bush running. he was a cutting edge governor 12, 14 years ago. the challenge when was he was elected pre-tea party. before the tea party there was one level of expectation which was very low, and he was good. he's doing stuff like this and walker is a. because post-tea party you could

do more and you're expected to do more. this is a criticism of bush. it's completely different times. it's like being pre-grated or post-reagan as elected official. bob dole never caught up. george herbert walker bush never caught up with a reagan mindset. they were born too early. they got elected to the they serve to early. given how politics works before reagan changed the rules. in the house and senate, either pre- or post-gingrich. paper before gingrich thought republicans were naturally the minority out of gingrich. change is how you meet people. fancast the people come you going to love me. i hope you don't -- it changes as you approach things and then there's this big change, maybe bigger with the tea party before and after the 2009-2010. they to spending on earmarks which prior to the tea party was considered a sign of berlin. i have brought -- guerrilla i have

stolen money from other people into the people who lived there you. that's great. the obituaries would talk about somebody brought money back to the district. today your marks are like considered what? you know. it's corruption. a measure of corruption, not confidence to be and hamburger. that is a change in washington, d.c. that i was sometimes other people made the tea party don't understand how dramatically they have succeeded already in changing the way washington works and politics were. having won yet? know, but boy, are we heading in a different direction than we were pre-tea party. >> host: i would agree with it. i but a lot of people think look, we started this in opposition to the bailouts and obamacare, and the bailouts

happened. obamacare is still in place. so we have not succeeded. and that was the main driving source. >> guest: but that's% of our public high schools not to 20 people the president has the veto. yes, we had the house but we didn't have the senate. we only result of this and. we don't have a veto which means means that either takes two-thirds of both houses close to override veto come or a different president the the answer is it takes a different president and nobody should get frustrated because we took the house and senate and we can't make the president signed the dissolution of, most people will contribute both a decade the steeper the president will not sign the abolition of obamacare. it's who he is. we can sit and yell at him and run radio ads, beaten and debate. it isn't happening. there's a way to trick you into it. it's an order for a sandwich. that's not happen. what we need is to be ready to get a different president and

then move. and i think we are on track to do. >> host: do you worry as the program remains in place, because people are receiving subsidies. they like getting stuff typically. do you worry for longer stays in place the harder it gets to make changes? >> guest: i would about that in the past i worked about it less now. the reason is that the tax increase are largely kicked income effort unpopular. there's another tax increase yet to come which is designed to destroy goldplated, meaning competent, good insurance policies. that takes and by 2018 and so there's another wave of comment that would disappoint people organize their lives i wonder state about how much money they're putting in and what they're going to give her health insurance, and obama is taking that away from them by taxing it away.

people as the health savings account can flex savings accounts efforts people use a special needs kids are being taxed and damaged by the government. there are 20 different taxes and obamacare come aid directly at the middle-class but a lot of with difficulty tax the middle class can obamacare sold taxes on middle-class people particularly as the announced forcing you to buy obamacare is in fact, attacks and not a mandate. and obama to remains wildly unpopular and social security within a lot of republicans voted for it was reasonably popular. when medicare, medicaid within a lot of republicans voted for. this one no republicans voted for and is widely unpopular to this day with independents and republicans can always watch of independence the. if independents are voting with republicans come to win. if the independence of with the democrats, and all the republicans together huffing and puffing will not make it work the independence of with

republicans and hostility towards obamacare and its taxes and its mandate. i think a different president and you could reform obamacare to the point where it isn't obamacare anymore and its consumer-based patient-based, not government based. >> host: how would you do that? >> guest: start automatically making easy to health savings account violent people to buy insurance across state lines to all the stables can be avoided by buying your insurance in a different state that doesn't have a lot of mandate. by taking the federal mandate, if it took a bad state mandates and made him a federal problem get would oppose mandates. take medicaid and block grant it to the states when we did with aid to families with dependent children to take medicare, the bipartisan reforms that now paul ryan has put forward that will allow competition. the arcuate vicky pryce done something. wage and price control which has worked for the last 4000 years

at least not with a lot of blood on the floor. and competition. the more you can have competition between states and between consumers and vendors, the better off you are. again if we say no tax increases come and we have to clean up the irs as well. we start talking about that but there's legislation that will be voted on during the week of april 15, 7 different pieces of legislation, eight get rid of the death tax is one of them. these reforms to say no using private e-mails and putting public data on them. there are 500000 hours each year used for union purposes at the irs. so when they don't answer your phone utah 60% vocals into the irs are not answered and head of the irs come obama political appointee says that's because you're not giving me enough money. he has 5000 hours what someone

calculate what the 2.3 million calls answered during that time, given to labor unions for free meaning people, workers comp people are paying for action working for union. if you want to begin you can find, but not with taxpayer dollars to import and that's the irs. we needed an effort that they started, which is a site did you contribute to a conservative group? we think they get tax which is supposed to stop the kennedys from gifting money to their kids run the death tax. we think the gift tax because they were calling conservative donors and sing we think he may owe a gift tax to 25%. it's not true. it's never been interpreted that way before. they didn't call liberals and threatened with it. maybe i should give as much money this election cycle picnic i should contribute to the tea party. who knows? you can discombobulate a guy and

a buddy he talks to just with a threat like that. getting a law put in i think is extremely helpful. >> host: so you mentioned -- consumption taxes to drive so expand the room for 401(k)s and things that got and basically be making unlimited, do you see anyone pushing that angle? >> guest: yes. the republican solution to everything is fine 29th for kids college education. obama wanted to kill. health savings accounts obama tried we can do. flexible savings accounts obama's got it back. it is a real conflict between the two parties. the republicans want to save money for your home, for investing in the future, for your retirement, lifetime savings accounts, retirement savings account, health savings account an education savings account. and then the democrats are trying to close them down damage them.

there's even been a couple of intellectuals on the left, one that clinton was pushing years ago that wanted to do what argentina dictum reach into everyone's 401(k) and tax all of the build up in there and then throw that into the government, one government welfare pension system. that's exactly what they did in argentina. they are talking about doing it. you would say that somebody staring at you see them do it flexible savings accounts, health savings account and they've tried to kill 529 11,000,529 accounts suddenly people contribute to them for the kids and grandkids and there was a revolt and obama backed off. but what he said was come he still wants to do it. he just new he couldn't get away with it this time, but he still has it on a to-do list which is to destroy your 529. >> host: i don't think people will realize that is the extent

guess that we need to focus on i could focus on the beaufort. >> host: in the directly helpful chapter which you tell people how to minimize their tax liability. >> guest: look, you can have a flat tax can you do reagan's tax reform. you can do with reform can't want to do which is a big tax credit for kids and about lower tax on capital and investment. you can do retail sales tax. there's one hears things you can do just within the law. take advantage of their companies 401(k) plan. don't overpay because if you get money back from the government at the end of the year he gave him an interest-free. don't do that. given interest-free loan to your brother will if you want to. not to uncle sam. it's a series of those reforms, the personal is political. more people have fsa's. in the end how to re-create a coalition committed to liberty that will win the election to give us these battles?

as i look at the leave us alone coalition, what they want from the government is to the left alone. you've got people doing polls all the time. edlund thinks this, a lot of people like rupert. to devote on rhubarb? know. i don't care if 90% of people like or don't like rhubarb. everybody has a 529. 2 million people homeschooled. people into jail. now 2 million kids are being homeschooled, and the americans have been homeschooled in the last couple decades. they know the one party wants to take that right away from them. they are not able to the democratic party as a result. they are 11 million americans with a concealed carry permit, right to carry a gun, in the fall of the.com in their purse the car. 11 million people.

then they were close to 030 years ago. there were about three or 410 years ago. -- three or four 10 years ago. there was a huge number. you can get into obscure things like the cigarettes. the democrats want to ban them. that's a lifestyle issue where people feel threatened by the government. all of those savings and investment vehicles, 529 can a democrat for old that to take those away from you. so by converting people to the fact that we do want to take it away and two you haven't got one yet. once you have done it your a different human being who is saving a few thousand dollars a year. >> host: all these numbers are big and add up to a lot of people but somehow the current president still managed to get elected twice. how would you explain that? >> guest: well, two things.

when you did have the irs going after the structure that were being created with the tea party. two, we have such stronger candidates. i mean numbers of stronger candidates. they were two or three people really running for president in 2008 and two or three people running for president in 2012 and the rest were selling books are going on lecture series or auditioning to be a radio talk show host. they hoped lightning would strike and it would work but that's very very rare. this time with a collection of people who can look you in the eye and say here's what i want to be president and his what i do. you can't laugh them off the stage. i think the strength of the candidates is good. the weakness of hillary, that had to go back to an older candidate from a previous time whose claim to fame is that she met a guy who was once president. she's going to run on second a state and the russian reset but that's going to go into the memory hole along with all her e-mails. she will go back to i was married to bill. we don't promote people that way. we don't do cam, kim kim

assad, aside from a socket on the osha people like clinton. if you chose for her and it's a very difficult comment by the way we know -- >> host: do you think they like bush push push traffic that is a boat anchor for the bush campaign. he was a good governor and he will have to reduce -- we introduce himself to the public. that hurts rather than help. >> host: so i want to move to a different topic again. one topic you don't focus too much of the book is entitlement reform. i guess partially because it's not every original topic to include in the book and you want to make it as interesting and at times very funny as it -- >> guest: oh, thank you. >> host: so what do you see what room for maneuvering to see there? to think that because sequester and because of the sort that

dynamic we can expect to see over the next 10 years whether there's no super urgent problem, do you think it's gotten harder -- >> easier. easy. maybe because i refer to as the paul ryan preforms. that is entitlement reform. that is everything except social security. in means tested local programs get block granted to the states as we did with aid to towns with dependent children and 96 and seven. the tensions and we need to move pensions state and local federal from defined benefit plans like general motors has an detroit has to defined plans 401(k)s and iras that don't have confronted by those that the government cannot lose for you or forget to raise the taxes to pay. utah has done is completely. all due hires in utah as a few years ago. all new hires come here's your

big on here's your big on his 10% into a 401(k). it's your third its replacement with women from 12% when you want to leave you take that we you take that with you, if you want to go to another state, take another job -- >> host: which is what apple has in the private sector. >> guest: the private sector has moved over to define conservation plan a state-by-state you are seeing that move at the state and the local novel. and at the national level we need to do that as well. do with new hires come not someone who has been promise one thing. but you guys and because you did something that is sustainable. so all pensions to defined benefit, all welfare programs block granted to the states. ..

it. >> he said i am spending every few half-hour to walk through the new ryan budget and everyone feels very comfortable, they have won elections twice. so it's not just